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truthsayer
13-10-2005, 15:58
Hi everyone, i have been looking at the dark elf army list and have come up with some changes that will hopefully come into effect in the next incarnation of the list. I would like your opinions on the list please. thanks.

LORDS.

Highborn. same stats. if chosen to lead the army spearmen become 7 points per model. this is to represent the highborn being able to draft in lots of normal warriors.

High Sorceress. same stats. no other special rules. getting a lv 4 is good enough.

*NEW* City Commander. same stats as a Noble but with Ld 10. If chosen to lead the army City Guard are Core choices. Reaper Bolt Throwers are special choices, In addition all cavalry units are 0-1 per 2000 points 1e(cold one knights, dark riders, Chariots. Special Rule. They are here! FIRE! - The dark elf army gains a +1 to the roll to see who gets to go first, it is cumulative with the +1 if you finish setting up first.

HEROES

Noble. same
Sorceress. same
Assassin. cheaper. Repeater crossbow.
NEW HERO. Witch Elf Hag Princess. x points. same stat line as noble. frenzy. must use two hand weapons if no magic weapon. poisoned attacks if has normal hand weapons. may choose magic items (with exception of magic armour) or upgrades from ToK list to max 50pts. can only join witch elves.
Beastmaster. Same statline. may ride dark steed or Cold One Chariot that is included as a special choice. Any beast may use the beastmasters Ld if within 12". Cold Ones may re-roll stupidity if within 12"
If Beastmaster is chosen all Dragons/Hydra's/manticores have a price reduction.

CORE

Spearmen. 9pts per model.
Repeater Crossbowmen. 11 points. shields +1 point
Corsairs. same
Dark Riders. same. Herald cheaper
Shades. have light armour as standard 15 points per model. Bloodshade cheaper. unit can have poisoned bolts for +1 point each. Shades do not count for minimun core choices in the army.

SPECIAL
0-1 City Guard. 9 points per model. shields for 1 point per model. repeaters for 4 points per model. one unit may take magic standard up to 50 points.
Witch Elves. same. get 6+ ward save as standard.
Cold One Chariots. same
Cold One Knights. same rules. have I6 and Ld9. Reduced points by 1 to 28 per model.
Executioners. same as now. *maybe s4*
Harpies. same

RARE

War Hydra. different breeds. Regenerate.
0-1 Black Guard. 16 points per model. Halberd, Heavy armour. Ws6. the usual rules.
0-1 Cauldron. Red Fury. Any Dark Elf units within 24" may re-roll failed to wound rolls in the first turn of any combat. any unit within 6" of the cauldron gain Magic Resistance (1). In addition any Witch Elf units are always frenzied if within 24" and may never lose their frenzy, if they have lost their frenzy and move within 24" of the cauldron they regain it. The Baleful energies seeping from the cauldron increase the ward save of any witch elves within 24" to 5+ and grants them magic resistance (1)
Reaper Bolt Throwers. 2 for 1 choice. 90 points. crew are equipped with hand weapons and light armour. the crew may both be given sea dragon cloaks for 10 points.

Some new magic items.

Banner of the North Wind. magic banner. 75points .
The North Wind blows its power across the unit keeping them from harm, if the unit suffers any casualties the wind blows stronger.
Missile fire directed at the unit are at -1 to hit, in addition all models in the unit gain a 6+ ward save against missiles of any kind (including magic missiles etc) if the unit should lose 25% of its number the ward save is increased to 5+. Further still if the unit should lose 50% of its number the ward save is increased to the maximum 4+

Pulse-stone of Warding. enchanted item. 40points
The pulse stone claims the life of its holder and slowly draws energy from them, it emits an aura of anti-magic to protect them from harm.
The bearer and any unit they are with is granted the same magic resistance as the amount of wounds on their starting profile (eg a noble with the stone is granted mr2, a high sorceress 3). When used to dispel a spell the holder must take a hit at strength 4. armour saves and ward saves may be taken as usual. the Dark magic spell soul stealer may not take the mr above 3.

So there it is. any suggestions are much appreciated. thanks for reading!

Gethalorre
13-10-2005, 16:26
Seems pretty good, although I'm not too great on the current Dark elf rules. Sorry not to be more constructive, though.

truthsayer
13-10-2005, 16:56
Thats alright Gethalorre dont worry. The more people who look the better.

Crube
13-10-2005, 16:58
Played against DE at the Carnage Tourney, and have to say that the changes you propose seem pretty well thought out.

I like the idea of the City Commander, although I am slightly concerned as to how complex things would get in the book...

Nevertheless, tres bon! and an interesting read - cheers

truthsayer
13-10-2005, 17:13
Yeah, the complexity was one of the things i was trying to minimize. I think if people read the rules carefully and all the special rules are displayed on a double page section like in the wood elf book it should be ok. thanks for the input Crube.

psiclone
13-10-2005, 17:46
points reductions if you take certain characters, is a nice idea

but instead of that they give your units an upgrade, eg,

take a high born, one unit of warriors, or corsire can take a 50 pt banner.
take a beast master, you can a have more than one upgraded hydra.

gondarion
13-10-2005, 18:01
What is wrong with complexity? Pretty much all the best books, such as the new wood elves, are very complex. I think both high elves and dark elves should have an honours system modeled after the wood elf kindreds. That would be the basis for characters. I think the dark elves just aren't scary enough. Like the high elves, most of their troops just can't compete with the other armies in terms of balance. A few ideas I like:

-Corsairs gain the "raiders" rule, and armour piercing weapons. An alternative would be a special deployment rule, as BaronDesade has suggested.

-Crossbowmen can buy poison darts for their repeater crossbows.

-Executioners skirmish.

-You can attempt to stir the cauldron of blood once a turn, to increase the range. Bad things can potentially happen as a result (just an idea I had, I haven't worked it out).

-Repeater bolt throwers cost 80 points

I also think dark magic should be made alot scarier. The most potent lore in the game should be high magic, along with dark magic and necromancy, which are perversions of high magic (and also khemrian rituals, in the case of the latter). Dark magic is currently far behind Skaven, both Waagh! lores, and particularly Slaanesh magic, which just seems wrong.

I really like the idea of different breeds of hydra. Regeneration is a no brainer, and they should definitely be able to be immune to panic.

chivalrous
13-10-2005, 18:17
City commander I quite like this idea! but I would make him/her 0-1 and add a rule saying that if there is a Highborn in the Army (3000+) as well then the Highborn must be the general but you can still opt to use the garrison army list.

Assassin Cheaper? hmm I know assassins are prohibitively expensive, I'd be much more in favour of keeping the same points, 2 hand weapons as standard and a free choice of which poison to use (i.e. take whichever poison you like and don't pay the points for it) plus 50 points worth of magic items/temple of Khaine upgrades. The danger of downgrading points is that character selection becomes a no brainer rather than careful calculated selection a cheap assassin becomes an almost automatic choice.

Hag Princess No arguements here.

Beastmaster I like the removal on the restriction of Hydra breeds but I think the reroll on cold one stupidity is a little too much, now that Knights have Ld9 as of the last update and you can take 2 chariots as a single special choice. I'm also a little worried about the reduction in points of Monsters, I don't anything in the beastmasters rules to counteract the imbalance this would cause.

Crossbowmen[B] I think the reduction in points in the update was a mistake when you look at DE crossbowmen in comparison to other missle units. 12 points each with light armour and a +1 point per model option on taking shields, with that you have a very good missle unit (the most effective in the game) and a sturdy combat unit too with a 4+ armour save if they take shields. They really are a true all purpose unit.

[B]ShadesLight armour as standard? leave it as an option.

Witch ElvesWard Save? nahh, maybe a reduction to 12 points per model but I don't see why they should get a ward save. an option for light armour as they did in the last edition but a ward save is too much for a dangerous unit that is supposed to be restricted by it's vulnerability to missle fire.

Repeater Bolt Throwers, powerful enough to be left at 100 points if used correctly but I'd welcome SDC's as standard since they are fleet weapons.

Banner of the North Windkept simple this is a great item but I'm unsure that it should get more powerful as the unit gets smaller. Keep it as -1 to hit and a 6+ ward against misslefire. Maybe give a 5+ ward against missle fire of S5+ and for stone thrower/mortar/cannon, a reroll of the artillery dice and the DElf player gets to choose whic result to use.

Sir Charles
13-10-2005, 18:19
Didn't you people already get a list revision this edition :eyebrows: and people bich about HE complaining:rolleyes:

truthsayer
13-10-2005, 18:33
Sir Charles: My ideas are not for another revision, they are ideas for when the whole army book is republished. I'm sure if people were to pop over to the dedicated high elf site they would find threads just the same as this on how they think GW should redo their list.

Thanks for your input tho!

Lestat
13-10-2005, 18:44
Nice little ideas, just some of them I can't see happening or personally think should be done different.

Characters.

With characters I think there 2 choices of what they can do.
They can either do what they have done with the other 2 elf armies and give them a honour/kindred system. Where you basically just get the standard fighter and mages and then let them have possible upgrades. Or they can keep them like the other armies and give characters set uses.

Personally I would prefer the honours system, where you just get nobles and sorceress and then let them become executioners, beastmasters, city guard and the like from their (I would still like the assassin as a set hero thought).

City guard. I see no reason why they shouldn't just be a core unit to start with (maybe special to start with and then core, with a city guard character). Easy way round this is just have them cost a couple of points more than the normal warrior version. So you can be specialised if you want, but you have to pay for it.

Shades. No way in hell these guys are going to be core and just 15 points.
Look at the wood elf scouts. Skirmishers and scouts are going to get a whole lot more expensive from now on. Your proberly going to be around 18-19 points, depending on if you have light armour.

Reapers point cost is fine. As long as your using volley fire. Where the points look bad is when you put them against single shoot, dwarf or orc bolt throwers. Not sure what to say about this. Maybe let them shoot a single bolt shoot twice instead of once?

Black guard really need something new to make them worth their points. I think they should be expensive. But need some rules or stats to justify their expence. Personally I would up their cost, to the level of chaos warriors. But take their eternal hatred rule from them. And give them sea dragon cloaks, +1A and +1S or something like that. Let them go toe to toe and beat anything one on one. They are pretty much surposed to be the best elves there are.

I could go on, about this. But I won't

Lestat.

Trunks
13-10-2005, 18:59
-Executioners skirmish.


No no no no no.

That completely wrecks their effectiveness. Furthermore, it goes COMPLETELY against their background material.



-Repeater bolt throwers cost 80 points


I find that Reaper Bolt Throwers are already pretty damn good for their points.



-Corsairs gain the "raiders" rule, and armour piercing weapons. An alternative would be a special deployment rule, as BaronDesade has suggested.

Corsairs don't need that stuff. They are a damn good choice for their points. There is nothing in the background to reflect a need for armor piercing weapons. The "Raiders" rule is the beastman thing, you don't steal that from them. Corsairs really aren't a skirmishers with regards to battlefield tactics unless they are on a boat, or performing a small raid (both of which would be suited to Mordheim, not Fantasy). Corsairs really need no alteration at all.

With regards to the original post:
The City Guard Commander is a nice idea, but not nice enough to be a seperate Lord Choice. Make it simply an upgrade. I'd like to see Beastmasters dropped as a hero choice as well. No need for the Witch Elf Hero either.

Add in a marks/vows/kindred system that you use to make your Nobles and Highborn have those qualities. This way you can upgrade your Noble or Highborn to a Witch Elf, Beastmaster, Executioner (my favorite . . .), etc.,. I think that would be a little more streamlined, while still getting the same result.

The re-roll of stupidity when within 12" of the Beastmaster is a little strong. I'd say any regiment that he is in (then he has actual influence over the beasts rather than yelling at them from 30 feet away in the heat of battle). Still a good ability. Even without a "vows/marks/kindred" system being implemented, this along with the reduction in "beasts" point cost would give people a reason to take a beastmaster other than as a Manticore Rider.

I think that City Guard should be core as a 0-1 upgrade to your basic warrior regiment. They aren't really that awesome to warrant taking up a special choice. With your City Guard Commander dude, he could remove the 0-1 restriction.

Executioners with Strength 4 would be cool, but they would need a price increase (as it stands for their 11 points they are pretty good with high WS, great weapons and heavy armor). They use to be that strength back in 5th edition.

I'd personally like to see Black Guard end up with a 4+ armor save from some super fine crafted Dark Elven plate mail. They appear to be armored that way anyway and it would encourage more people to try to take them as an actual mainline regiment instead of a small flanking regiment (which is the best way to use them currently most of the time). These guys are the Witch Kings most elite badass troops.

Sir Charles
13-10-2005, 18:59
Sir Charles: My ideas are not for another revision, they are ideas for when the whole army book is republished. I'm sure if people were to pop over to the dedicated high elf site they would find threads just the same as this on how they think GW should redo their list.

Thanks for your input tho!
ah, your making a "wishlist," my bad. In that case palstic corsairs, if they could keep them looking as cool as they do now, would be cool.

truthsayer
13-10-2005, 19:09
@ Lestat. I have to disagree with the honours system, i want an executioner hero i take a noble with the Draich. If i were to have a beastmaster noble how would i explain his inherant beast skills and the fact he can do everything a normal noble can do. they are supposed to be less military and more specified. If i wanted a witch elf hero there would have to be loads of rules on what i can and cant take from the nobl'e list eg armour, mounts, weapons.
I think character slots would be so much more easier to look over without complicating things more.

City Guard. i think if they were core choices that cost a lot it wouldn't make a difference. people would still use them as they would just combine the points from a unit of spears and the points from a unit of crossbows to pay for them. At least in a city Garrison list you would expect to see them. In a Highborns list you would see one unit (probably his own house guard) but the rest would be spears or crossbows and not a mix.

I see what you mean about the shades, but with so many new interesting rules in the list i am promoting i dont think you would see more than 2 units generally. If the points were to go up to 18-19 a pop i think you would probably see Mengil and his lads a lot more.

@ Trunks.
Black Guard. Looking through the 5th edition dark elf army book i have seen that the old hydra's scaly skin save could not be modified by strength, i also read somewhere that the scales are used to make armour and so *maybe* the Black Guard could have a new suit of armour... maybe.

Hydra Scale Armour. grants a 4+ armour save.

Im not too keen on the idea myself as it negates the whole tactical element to using these ferocious killers. although it would help them last a bit longer.

No worries Sir Charles...

truthsayer
13-10-2005, 19:44
Thanks for all the excellent idea so far peeps, i have refined the list to include some more of what people have said above. I still would like some opinions on executioners, harpies and Black Guard armour so if anyone has anything. here is the list with modifications.

LORDS.

Highborn. Same stats. If chosen to lead the army spearmen become 7 points per model. This is to represent the highborn being able to draft in lots of normal warriors. If the Highborn is the General one unit of spearmen may take a magic standard worth up to 50 points. This rule may not be used in conjunction with the ‘I bow to your greatness special rule’.

High Sorceress. Same stats. No other special rules. Getting a lv 4 is good enough.

*NEW* City Commander 0-1. Same stats as Noble but with Ld 10. If chosen to lead the army City Guard are Core choices. Reaper Bolt Throwers are special choices, In addition all cavalry units are 0-1 per 2000 points ie(cold one knights, dark riders, Chariots).
Special Rule. Protect the Citadel! - The dark elf army gains a +1 to the roll to see who gets to go first; it is cumulative with the +1 if you finish setting up first.
Special Rule. I bow to your Greatness – If a Highborn is included in the army (3000+) the City Commander will give up power to him, the City Garrison army list will still be in effect.

HEROES

Noble. Same
Sorceress. Same
Assassin. 110 points. Repeater crossbow.
*NEW* Witch Elf Hag Princess. X points. Same stats as noble. Frenzy. Must use two hand weapons if no magic weapon. Poisoned attacks if has normal hand weapons. May choose magic items (with exception of magic armour and Enchanted items) or upgrades from ToK list to max 50pts. Can only join witch elves.
Beastmaster. Same stat line. May ride dark steed or Cold One Chariot that is included as a special choice.
Any beast may use the beastmasters Ld if within 12".
If included in a Unit of Cold Ones the unit may re-roll failed stupidity tests.
If Beastmaster is chosen all Dragons/Hydra's/manticores have a price reduction and more than one Hydra Breed may be taken.

CORE

Spearmen. 9pts per model.
Repeater Crossbowmen. 11 points. Shields +1 point
Corsairs. Same
Dark Riders. Same. Herald cheaper
Shades 13 points per model. May choose Light Armour at +1 point per model. Unit may have poisoned repeater crossbows for +1 point each. Shades do not count towards the minimum core choices in the army.

SPECIAL
0-1 City Guard. 9 points per model. May be given Shields for +1 point per model. May be given Repeater Crossbow’s for 4 points per model. One unit may take magic standard up to 50 points.
Witch Elves. Same. Get 6+ ward save as standard.
Cold One Chariot. Same
Cold One Knights. Same rules. Have I6 and Ld9. Reduced points by 1 to 28 per model.
Executioners. Same as now. *Maybe s4*
Harpies. Same

RARE

War Hydra. Different breeds. Regenerate.
0-1 Black Guard. 16 points per model. Halberd, Heavy armour. Ws6. the usual rules.
0-1 Cauldron. Red Fury. Any Dark Elf units within 24" may re-roll failed to wound rolls in the first turn of any combat. Any unit within 6" of the cauldron gain Magic Resistance (1). In addition any Witch Elf units are always frenzied if within 24" and may never lose their frenzy, if they have lost their frenzy and move within 24" of the cauldron they regain it. The Baleful energies seeping from the cauldron increase the ward save of any witch elves within 24" to 5+ and grants them magic resistance (1)
Reaper Bolt Throwers. 2 for 1 choice. 90 points. Crew are equipped with hand weapons and light armour. The crew may both be given sea dragon cloaks for 10 points.

gondarion
13-10-2005, 19:57
Sir Charles: My ideas are not for another revision, they are ideas for when the whole army book is republished. I'm sure if people were to pop over to the dedicated high elf site they would find threads just the same as this on how they think GW should redo their list.

Quite so. In fact, I've been working on a fairly exhaustive re-write over at asur.org.

Lestat,

I don't think we will see scouts and skirmishers cost alot more at all. The reason scouts cost so much in the wood elf army is because they're core; its that simple. It is a masterful job of internal balancing which, along with the restriction of one scout unit per unit of glade guard, prevents the possibility of an annoying all-scout army.

Gotreksbrother
14-10-2005, 00:48
I think the new Wood Elf Book has shown the way for future army book publications. The fact that many new special rules are included might mean that the development studio has accepted that you cannot over simplify the game in order to appeal to a bigger audience, so kudos for that!

But getting back to the subject on this thread.

I think that the dark elf book should get a traits & honours system, like the wood elven kindred system.

Honours (A High Borne, a Noble or an Assasin may take 1 honour at the cost listed, this is in addition to any points spent on magic items or TofK abilities).


Master Assasin (Assasin only): The Assasin can take magic items or TofK abilities up to 75 points (excluding magic armour). The Assasin can also choose to strike at an enemy character before the game starts but after all deployment has been made, so keep the Assasin undeployed as if he had been Hidden in a unit at the start of the game. The Assasin will always strike first, regardless of magic item, abilities etc. Make all attacks from the Assasin at the chosen character, and if the character dies take any Panic tests as normal. If the character was in a unit the Assasin is then removed from play but only half victory points are awarded as the Assasin slips away before being caught. If the character was on his own, then the assasin remains in play and the dark elf player can use him as normal. Only one Assasin per army may take this Honour, and it cannot be taken in an army led by a High Sorceress. 60 points.

Chosen of Khaine: The Character can take up to 50 points of TofK abilities. Becomes subject to Frenzy and can only join Witch Elves. The Character cannot use Heavy Armour or Shields (normal or magical) or any missile weapons. 30 points.

Corsair Captain: The Character wears a Sea Dragon Cloak. Corsair Units can take repeating crossbows at 4 points per model. If this honour is taken by a Highborn, you can take as many Corsair units as you have Warrior units but Cold One Chariots, Cold one riders, Harpies and Dark Riders become Rare units. The character can only join Corsair units and must be on foot. 40 points.

Night Shade: The Character gains the Scouting ability and can get poisoned attacks at 10 points. the Character cannot use Heavy Armour (normal or magical) and must be on foot. 15 points.

Master Executioner: The Character must use a Great weapon (this can be magical), and gains the Killing blow ability. The Character cannot use missile weapons and must be on foot. 30 points.

Numb Senses: The Character may ride a Cold One mount for 16 points. 5 points

Captain of the Guard: The Character wears Ornamental Armour (4+ save) and is subject to all the rules for the Black Guard. He cannot use any other Armour or Shield (nomal or magical), missile weapons and he must be on foot. 20 points.

Raider: The Character must ride a Dark steed and follows all the rules for dark riders. He cannot wear Heavy armour (normal or magical). 20 points.

Lords

High Born (as current option, except cannot take a sea dragon cloak and without cold one mount option and can only ride Dragon in 3000+ battles)

High Sorceress (as current option but without cold one mount option)

Heroes

Noble (as current options, except he cant take a sea dragon cloak and without cold one mount option)

Beastmaster (new rules and stats: +1 ws. can only ride Manticore in 3000+ battles)

Assassin (as current option, with scouting ability but with repeater crossbow option for 10 points)

Sorceress (as current option but without cold one mount option)

Core Units

Warriors (as current option, post revision)

Corsairs (as current option but 0-1)

Dark Riders (as current option, but only 1 unit per unit of warriors in the army)


Special units

Witch Elves (as current)

Executioners (as current, post revision)

Cold one chariots (as current, post revision)

Cold one knights (as current, post revision)

Shades (as current, but with option for poisoned attacks for 2 points per model)

Harpies (as current)

Rare Units

Black guard (as current, post revision but with Ornamental armour giving them save 4+)

Hydra (as current)

Reaper bolt throwers (as current option)

Cauldron of blood (new rules and better survivability from ranged attacks)


well Im beat...just some ideas for now...

Archaon
14-10-2005, 01:56
I'm a Dark Elf player and so far the propositions seem quite good..

What i'd like to see added are Slave Troops.. Strength 2, Toughness 2, Leadership 5 or 6. You could have only one unit per Core infantry you have and they can't exceed the unit strenght of Core Infantry.

Trunks
14-10-2005, 02:46
Slaves should not be in this army. They are used as workers and generally would not be brought to the battlefield.

Dark Elves do not need "Cheap Expendable troops", that goes totally against the way they play.

m1s1n
14-10-2005, 03:03
So let me get this straight . . .
According to your list--if I were to take the City Commander I could have 8 repeater bolt throwers? Who cares if I lose some cavalry . . .I can already hear the screams.

sulla
14-10-2005, 10:34
Oooh goody, a wish-list...I love these. Completely pointless but fun, nonetheless...

First, I would allow highborn and nobles to use the temple of khaine...

Second, I would allow beastmasters to use a shield (what training is required to hold a piece of wood in front of you?)

Third, I would try to find a way to differentiate between the role of corsairs and warriors...maybe give corsairs 'skirmish' and charge a bit extra for them?

Forth, I'd make the hydra a bit more scary and a bit more expensive. I think stubborn is almost a neccessity for a fairly non-threatening beast like the hydra (Shaggoth and treemen are both tougher in cc and don't have to worry about giving away soft wounds in cc from handlers). Also, why doesn't it regenerate like the original hydra in greek myth? So maybe aropund the 280-300pt level of power...

Fifth, I would either drop the assassin character altogether and add a champion-level assassin as an option for each infantry squad (in addition to the actual unit champions) or make him actually likely to kill hero level characters in cc (even mounted ones). Personally, I think option 2 is too hard to acchieve without making him overpowered so just make him a ws6 champion with 2 attacks, extra hand weapon and 25pts of options from the temple of khaine.

Sixth, add a witch elf hero so DE players can play witch cult.

Seventh, add another monster to the list...either a unit of ogre sized ones with reastmasters behind them or, even better, a mammoth sized one with DE mounted on it's howdah.

I really like how the DE works. It is like a gamblers version of the HE list. More potential for carnage. but with greater risk of failure. I would be happy for that to continue through any extra troop types GW introduce for them...

Sulla

Cenyu
14-10-2005, 12:34
You can have 8 RBTs in 2K according to the current official City Guard list - they are 2 for 1 elite choices.

Gotreksbrother:

Frankly said I'm not too fond of your proposed honours - the Assassin honour is outright beardy ("Goodbye, undead general and happy crumpling to your army?") and the other one's are too restricting to be of any use.

Just overhaul the current magic items & ToK choices and you can customize your heroes in a good way without having to introduce honours. That and simply introduce a generic Hag hero and perhaps even lord.

Corsairs don't need RxBs... they are fast moving shock troops, why would they want to slow down in favor of some RxB bolts?


And on the subject of slaves... no. Just no. For Khaine's sake, no.

chivalrous
14-10-2005, 13:30
@ Gotreksbrother

0-1 on corsairs? why?

No Sea dragon cloaks for Characters even though they are as much a mark of battlefield prowess as they are armour? All nobles and Highborn will have spent many years reaving where they will have recieved their cloak as a badge of this honour, just because they eventually left the corsairs doesn't mean they just threw their cloaks away.



Master Assasin (Assasin only): The Assasin can also choose to strike at an enemy character before the game starts but after all deployment has been made, so keep the Assasin undeployed as if he had been Hidden in a unit at the start of the game. The Assasin will always strike first, regardless of magic item, abilities etc. Make all attacks from the Assasin at the chosen character, and if the character dies take any Panic tests as normal. If the character was in a unit the Assasin is then removed from play but only half victory points are awarded as the Assasin slips away before being caught. If the character was on his own, then the assasin remains in play and the dark elf player can use him as normal.

Broken as a bone under a piledriver.
Forget that whole rule and replace with the following:-
Master Assassin (assassin only):Assassin becomes a Lord choice instead of a Hero and is still unable to be your armies general. The Assassin gets +1A, +1I, +1W and may take up to 100 points of equipment from the common and Dark Elf magic items lists and/or Temple of Khaine list.
The Master Assassin may make use of the special deployment rule mentioned in Shadowblades entry which allows an assassin to be set up in an enemy unit.



Corsair Captain: The Character wears a Sea Dragon Cloak. Corsair Units can take repeating crossbows at 4 points per model. If this honour is taken by a Highborn, you can take as many Corsair units as you have Warrior units but Cold One Chariots, Cold one riders, Harpies and Dark Riders become Rare units. The character can only join Corsair units and must be on foot. 40 points.

I'm not really happy that Corsairs should be 0-1 and this honour becomes obsolete if that restriction is taken away.
Possibly just have this honor to allow a raiders type list such as the one in the back of the current army book. Add a +1 to the roll to see who deploys first and takes the first turn to show the rading parties nature.
Why would Dark Riders become Rare? they are as much as part of a Dark elf raiding party as corsairs, look at the list at the back of the current army book for fluff and rules of a Raiding party, they are listed as core.
I agree that Cold One Riders, Harpies and chariots should be rare.



Night Shade: The Character gains the Scouting ability and can get poisoned attacks at 10 points. the Character cannot use Heavy Armour (normal or magical) and must be on foot. 15 points.

Limit this to Nobles and Beastmasters (beastmasters have to be stealthy to hunt the monsters they rear/tame).



Numb Senses: The Character may ride a Cold One mount for 16 points. 5 points
/QUOTE]

Why are you proposing this?This just seems dumb. Keep the Cold One as the standard mount for Dark Elf characters.

[QUOTE=Gotreksbrother]
Captain of the Guard: The Character wears Ornamental Armour (4+ save) and is subject to all the rules for the Black Guard. He cannot use any other Armour or Shield (nomal or magical), missile weapons and he must be on foot. 20 points.

I like this!



Raider: The Character must ride a Dark steed and follows all the rules for dark riders. He cannot wear Heavy armour (normal or magical). 20 points.

you have to take this option to ride a Dark Steed.

As I see it, you've just lifted the rules straight from the Wood elves kindred list and renamed units and mounts.

Cenyu
14-10-2005, 13:50
The Assassin gets +1I

Assassins already have I10. ^^

chivalrous
14-10-2005, 13:54
Assassins already have I10. ^^

yup, they do don't they, my bad :rolleyes:
okay, but the rest of the suggestion stands.

KellerMeister
14-10-2005, 14:30
My hopes are that a revision of the Dark Elves will contain a pure Beastmaster-list that brings these guys out in all their glory. There are plenty of beasts that aught to be eligible for battlefield duty.

truthsayer
14-10-2005, 14:59
@ Gotrek'sBrother. I dont think any of those Honours are worth taking, it seems like you've just put restrictions on most things in the army book and doubled the points.
Only take a Dragon or Manticore in games of 3000+ points. that would make playing at less than 3k just not worth it, there would be no variety in the list at all then.

@Archaon. I really dont think we need any kind of slaves on the battlefield, Dark Elves have lots of pride when it comes to battlefield manouvers and wouldn't want let alone need a unit like this. leave it to the skaven.

@m1s1n. So in a 2000 point game you would be willing to put 800 points into 8 bolt throwers. (720 if you dont give them Sea Dragon Cloaks as in my list!). There wouldn't be much left to play with, especially after you've accounted for characters and core choices. It wouldn't be that hard to beat either!

@Sulla. Highborn and Noble's can choose ToK stuff, this is a no im afraid. I just dont see why practically all of the heroes would be allowed to choose skills from the highly secretive Temple of Khaine. I have however come up with this idea for an upgrade to an already existing magic item to allow for a themed general.

The Cloak of Dark Souls 25 points. Enchanted Item.
This Billowing Cloak of the darkest Shadows envelops the wearer, allowing them to pass by unnoticed.
A Character with the cloak of Dark Souls may Scout, as long as they are on foot. In addition, the wearer of the cloak may choose poisons and/or skills from the ToK list to the total of their magic item allowance. May not be taken by a city Commander or A Battle Standard Bearer.


@Sulla. I dont think that anything needs to be done with the assassin except making him a cheaper option. New magic items and new skills would be all that was needed then to make him a worthwhile choice.

@Cenyu. Nice to see that you have seen the list and thank God someone else agree's with me on the honours thing. With a decent list of magic items and stuff we dont need 'em.

@Kellermeister. I am hoping that with the selection of Beastmaster's an all monster list would be a viable option. Especially if they were to give a price cut to taking them.

I think i may have come upon the solution to the Harpie problem, When a unit of Harpies charges they cause fear for that round only. This would show them to be scary harassers to war machine crews and the like but not that much of a problem to ranked units.

KellerMeister
14-10-2005, 15:50
I think i may have come upon the solution to the Harpie problem, When a unit of Harpies charges they cause fear for that round only. This would show them to be scary harassers to war machine crews and the like but not that much of a problem to ranked units.

This is a very good idea. I like it. There is a little thing though; they would be able to charge other fearcausers without problem but when charging Terror-causing monsters they would have to take a panic test on the second round of CC. This might not be a problem but instead part of the dynamic and I guess it's down to how you opt to view the situation. It wouldn't bother me since I can imagine Harpies being overly confident on the charge only to quickly realize that they have bitten something tougher than they can handle.

truthsayer
14-10-2005, 16:37
Ive updated the list again. Refined the Highborn, refined the city commander, changed the executioners, added a rule for harpies, Hydra Breeds. Addedpoints cost for city commander, points cost for hag princess, beastmaster rule added.


LORDS.

Dark Elf Highborn. Same stats.
Special Rule. Expendable - If chosen to lead the army spearmen become 7 points per model. This represents the highborn’s ability to call to war many Citizen Soldiers. If the Highborn is the General one unit of spearmen may take a magic standard worth up to 50 points. This rule may not be used in conjunction with the ‘I bow to your greatness special rule’.

High Sorceress. Same stats. .

*NEW* City Commander 0-1. 100 points. Magic item allowance 75 points. Same stats as Noble but with Ld 10. If chosen to lead the army City Guard are Core choices. Reaper Bolt Throwers are special choices; In addition all cavalry units are 0-1 per 2000 points i.e. (cold one knights, dark riders, Chariots).
Special Rule. Protect the Citadel! - The dark elf army gains a +1 to the roll to see who gets to go first; it is cumulative with the +1 if you finish setting up first.
Special Rule. I bow to your Greatness – If a Highborn is included in the army (3000+) the City Commander will give up power to him, the City Garrison army list will still be in effect.

HEROES

Noble. Same
Sorceress. Same
Assassin. 110 points. Option for Repeater crossbow +10 points.
*NEW* Witch Elf Hag Princess. 90 points. Same stats as noble. Frenzy. Must use two hand weapons if no magic weapon. Poisoned attacks if has normal hand weapons. May choose magic items (with exception of magic armour and Enchanted items) or upgrades from ToK list to max 50pts. Can only join witch elves.
Beastmaster. Same stat line. May ride dark steed or Cold One Chariot that is included as a special choice.
Any beast may use the beastmasters Ld if within 12".
If riding A Cold One and included in a Unit of Cold Ones or if rides a Cold One Chariot the unit may re-roll failed stupidity tests.
If a Beastmaster is chosen one Dragon, Hydra or manticore is discounted by 30 points, this is cumulative and so taking two beastmasters will reduce the cost of a black Dragon by 60 points.
More than one alternate Hydra Breed may be chosen.

CORE

Spearmen. 9pts per model.
Repeater Crossbowmen. 11 points. Shields +1 point
Corsairs. Same
Dark Riders. Same. Herald cheaper
Shades 13 points per model. May choose Light Armour at +1 point per model. Unit may have poisoned repeater crossbows for +1 point each. Shades do not count towards the minimum core choices in the army.

SPECIAL
0-1 City Guard. 9 points per model. May be given Shields for +1 point per model. May be given Repeater Crossbow’s for 4 points per model. One unit may take magic standard up to 50 points.
Witch Elves. Same. Get 6+ ward save as standard.
Cold One Chariot. Same
Cold One Knights. Same rules. Have I6 and Ld9. Reduced points by 1 to 28 per model.
Executioners. 12 points per model. Strength upgraded to 4.
Harpies. Same Stats. On the turn any unit of Harpies charges they cause fear.

RARE

War Hydra. Regenerate. Breathe fire.
Spellthirster War Hydra. The usual rules.
Royal War Hydra. The usual Rules.
Venomous War Hydra. Poisoned attacks, immune to poison. Poison breath weapon.

0-1 Black Guard. 16 points per model. Halberd, Heavy armour. Ws6. the usual rules.
0-1 Cauldron. Red Fury. Any Dark Elf units within 24" may re-roll failed to wound rolls in the first turn of any combat. Any unit within 6" of the cauldron gain Magic Resistance (1). In addition any Witch Elf units are always frenzied if within 24" and may never lose their frenzy, if they have lost their frenzy and move within 24" of the cauldron they regain it. The Baleful energies seeping from the cauldron increase the ward save of any witch elves within 24" to 5+ and grants them magic resistance (1)

Reaper Bolt Throwers. 2 for 1 choice. 90 points. Crew are equipped with hand weapons and light armour. The crew may both be given sea dragon cloaks for 10 points.

chivalrous
14-10-2005, 17:21
This is a very good idea. I like it. There is a little thing though; they would be able to charge other fearcausers without problem but when charging Terror-causing monsters they would have to take a panic test on the second round of CC. This might not be a problem but instead part of the dynamic and I guess it's down to how you opt to view the situation. It wouldn't bother me since I can imagine Harpies being overly confident on the charge only to quickly realize that they have bitten something tougher than they can handle.

I'd suggest that the Harpies ignored the normal rules for Fear and Terror liabilities.
Certainly saying that they suffer from Terror causing creatures/items even when they cause fear ( maybe even going as far to say they suffer fear causing creatures/items even when they cause fear.)

Trunks
14-10-2005, 19:16
Third, I would try to find a way to differentiate between the role of corsairs and warriors...maybe give corsairs 'skirmish' and charge a bit extra for them?


I already explained why skirmish just doesn't fit for Corsairs.

The role of corsairs and warriors is already fairly different. Corsairs = Offense, Warriors = Defense. You try to hold a charge with Warriors, you do the charging with Corsairs.

Corsairs are perfectly fine.

And to the person who wanted a 0-1 limit on corsairs, you need to gain a little more knowledge of the army background. They are very plentiful. They really should usually equal or outnumber warriors on most raids to enemy lands when you look at it. They are the main crew of the Black Arks, the things that get Dark Elves to enemy lands other than the Chaos Wastes and Lustria. Well, there is another way, underground tunnels that the shades/scouts travel around in, but that is a bit different.

redemptionist15
14-10-2005, 21:04
From my experience with Dark Elves i would like to see the following changes:

Highborn: The option to take poisons for his weapons. I would also like to see some form of honours system (i.e like HE and WE). Otherwise he's fine.

High Sorceress: Fine

Noble: The poison option that the Highborn has, and perhaps some honours.

Sorceress: Fine

Assassin: He needs some big changes, i think a -1 to hit him in combat would be a great rule, representing his combat prowess (but still leaving him vulnerable to auto-hit/high ws/multiple wound weapons). Also increasing his allowance to buy things with would be good. As it is he's a risky character selection and inferior in terms of points vs effectiveness to the Skaven Assassin.

Beastmaster: I would like to see him become a powerful character choice, i would move him to the Lord Selection. I would also have selecting him effect the army list selection, Harpies, Cold One Knights, Chariots move to core, Hydra's to special. Warriors, Corsairs and Dark Riders become Special, Executioners, Witch Elves, Cauldron of Blood and Black Guard wouldn't be allowed. RBT and shades in rare.

Then i would have him allowing all stupidity to be re-rolled within 12" and if he is in a unit with a monster/mount that suffers from stupidity they ignore as long as the beastmaster is alive. Obviously these rules would need tightening up but i feel the Beastmaster can't be done justice or be effective enough as a Hero level character.

Witch Elf Great Hag: Noble stats, frenzy, 2 poisoned hand weapons, 6+ ward save (increased to 5+ with the cauldron). Options for 75pts of temple/poison upgrades. Cannot be the general. Any unit of witch elves she joins gains a 6+ ward save.

Core

Warriors: Spears and hand weapons carried by warriors have armour piercing,+1/2pts for this.

Corsairs:Fine as they are

Dark Riders:Fine as they are

Cold One Chariot:Increase to LD9

Cold One Knights: Fine as they are

Shades: Give them option for poisoned RXB's

Executioners: up WS to 6 or give them s4, both options add +2pts

Witch Elves: Fine as they are

Harpies: Give them LD7. Allowed to use generals LD if the general is a beastmaster

Black Guard: Give them full plate, move to special (core if Highborn is selected). Make halberds armour piercing.

Cauldron of Blood: Allow witch elves to re-roll failed wounds every round of combat, any units within 12" gain MR1 (witch elves gain MR2). Hags profile increased to have 2 wounds. +10pt increase in cost. Otherwise the same

RBT: Fine

Hydra: Give him s6, and an additional wound.


Obviously new magic items as well etc etc.

Now to justify my changes, i feel certain units (hydra,cauldron of blood, assassin, beastmaster) are definetely underpowered either in comparison to similar units in other armys, or just in terms of the army selection.

I feel such distinctive units as the Cauldron of blood, hydra, assassin and beastmaster should be selections that make a large difference to your army. I don't feel any changes i have made would make them particularly over-powered.

Anyways just my 2p.

Trunks
15-10-2005, 04:41
I don't think there is any reason to get rid of the hero choice beastmaster. I'm not opposed to the Lord level Beastmaster at all, but keep the hero one too as a lesser beastmaster. Not all Beastmasters are super badass crazy guys. It would also allow you take an army with nothing but beastmasters as you characters if you wish (which would be very characterful). I also see no reason to move Dark Riders to Special with the "Beastmaster" army as they are cavalry and related to the beasts theme (read the 5th edition story about Rakkarth if you need further proof).

I'd also be opposed to Black Guard being able to become core in any way shape or form. They are the most elite badass troops in the dark elf army. Special if a Highborn is taken I could see, but not core (even assuming you keep the 0-1 restriction).

Nekharoth
17-10-2005, 06:32
i don't see the justification behind opinions that slave units are inappropriate for Dark Elf armies. the suggestion that these units would not be employed on the battlefield by Dark Elf armies is ludicrous. i think a few people need to go back and familiarise themselves with a bit more of the background and history of the Dark Elves that has been written since the inception of Warhammer before they comment on this thread. slavery is more intrinsic to the way of life of Dark Elves that it is even to Skaven, etc. Dark Elves are racist to the extreme and see utterly no value in the lives of others.

although... slave units might be good for fluff reasons, however it is true that Dark Elves are not really in dire need of cheap expendable troops, so i think there might be other better ways to incorporate this theme effectively into gameplay. i haven't had the time to flesh out these ideas yet... but slaves could be purchased as an 'upgrade' for infantry units. At the beginning of the game the Dark Elf player must roll a D6 for each unit with slaves to see what happens to them...

1-2 Slaughter! - The Dark Elves butcher the slaves in the most ghastly ways imaginable. The Unit causes Fear for the duration of the game.
3-4 Mangled Corpses - The Dark Elves litter the battlefield with the mutilated remains of the slaves, hampering the enemy's movement. The first time the unit is charged, the enemy unit will recieve no bonuses for charging (strength bonuses, impact hits, etc.) and will automatically strike last in the first round of combat.
5-6 Living Shields - The Dark Elves use the slaves as living shields against missile fire. This gives the unit a 5+ ward save against shooting (including magic missiles). If the unit flees for any reason, the slaves are assumed to be left behind and the bonus is lost for the rest of the game.

this could also be expanded for Witch Elves, whose abilities might be somehow enhanced while fresh sacrifices are at hand, although i wouldn't want this to interfere with the existing rules for the cauldron of blood.

another one of my thoughts for enhancing the Dark Elf army would be to include the malevolent spirits that inhabit Naggaroth in much the same capacity as Spites in the new Wood Elf army. seeing as these first appeared in the artwork and fluff for Dark Elves years before they were included in the Wood Elf rules, it would be particularly appropriate! i think certain dark spirits should be available for certain characters - 'familiar' like spirits for Sorceresses; malicious, bestial, close-combat oriented ones for Beastmasters; devious, murderous ones for assassins; plus more 'ordinary' ones for nobles/highborn.

i think it would be fitting if these spirits were generally more powerful for their points value than the Wood Elf ones, but to represent their evil and chaotic nature there should be a small chance (on the roll of a 1 on a D6 or something...) that they turn their attacks/abilities against their masters. characters might also be able to take Keikalla (Druchii spirit-bells) as a magic item which negates the first instance of this happening.

lastly i would like to see more Druchii weapons available to characters - such as a Draich, Ghlaith or Lakelui. I know the latter two are described as being archaic weapons, but I would see these as being ancient heirlooms that have been passed down through many generations.