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VC Doke
15-04-2008, 00:42
Lets set the ground rules:
-It only has 1 wound, therefore it isn't a monster.
-It has flying and is easily used in any calvary units as it uses a US 2 calvary base.

Did it mention that it is completely revolutionary!? No other Warhammer army has this option currently. Only 20 or 30 points, too!

How have been your experiences with the Hellsteed? Has it been game breaking (or at least grossly advantageous), like I have playtested?

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2008, 00:44
I find that the hellsteed just puts the wearer out in the open and he gets shot to bits unless he wears the wristbands of black gold.

You may want to take a closer look at the rules for character's joining units.

Makaber
15-04-2008, 00:53
In my book, it cannot join a unit, because it is a flying creature. I expect the intention of the rule was aimed towards flying monsters and this might be confusing to some, but the facts are pretty clear to me. Is the vampire "on" something? Yes. Is it a creature? Yes. Does it fly? Most certainly.

Other than that, I think the Hellsteed is pretty interesting, but hardly game breaking as you call it. It's a horse and it flies, but as you're using the flying speed, its not all that much different from a normal flying character really. It has the horse attack, it can still run pretty fast if needed to, it gives an armour save bonus, and it's got a bit higher unit strength. On the other hand, it limits the vampire to a 90 degree line of sight.

Other than that, it's pretty much just a vampire and a horse, that happens to fly. While certainly useful and mildly intriguing, I don't see how it can break the game in any form or fashion.

Mezziah
15-04-2008, 01:02
On the other hand, it limits the vampire to a 90 degree line of sight.

Does it really do that? Hmmm, Hasn't the fact that it isn't more than US2 anything to do about it? Just trying to compare it to the Bretonnian pegasus riders, they have 360 degree vision right?

Makaber
15-04-2008, 01:06
Does it really do that? Hmmm, Hasn't the fact that it isn't more than US2 anything to do about it? Just trying to compare it to the Bretonnian pegasus riders, they have 360 degree vision right?

You know, I'm not 100% sure anymore. I think the pegasi knights are an exception because they're skirmishers as well, or something like that. Give me a minute and I'll check the book.

Ed.: Ah, here we go. Page 69, "Units of Flyers", states that units of flyers follow the normal rules for flyers, except for a couple of exceptions. One of which are that they operate as skirmishers. For the record, pegasus knights aren't the same as a vampire on Hellsteed, as they are flying cavalry, and use their own (in my book, messed up) rules set somewhere between ridden monsters and cavalry. The Hellsteed uses the cavalry rules exclusivly, only it happens to grant flight as well.

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2008, 01:11
Same page as the one that states you dont get to join units.
He doesnt get a 360 degree line of sight.

Darkangeldentist
15-04-2008, 01:18
My reading of the fly rule indicated that anything with the rule can't join other units. So the hellsteed makes the Vampire riding it rather fragile.

I have found one combination that does appeal to me very much. Putting count Mannfred on a hellsteed with skull staff and black periapt. Make sure to have a couple of units of fell bats to cover his advance and to burn dice on. He can raise them beyond their starting size and since the book lists them as infantry you can quickly make them quite substantial units.

Basically he and the bats become an obscenely flexible flanking force to attack enemy war machines, skirmishers and missile units. Plus in later turns the bats can stand behind enemy units waiting for them to break. Mannfred has more spells to call on than any other wizard and the thought of him running around so freely is quite terrifying. The bats main purpose is to hide him from enemy missile units but think of the fun you can have casting doom and darkness followed by walking death. Terror causing bats and one poor unit taking the test at -3 Ld.

Mezziah
15-04-2008, 01:21
You know, I'm not 100% sure anymore. I think the pegasi knights are an exception because they're skirmishers as well, or something like that. Give me a minute and I'll check the book.

Ed.: Ah, here we go. Page 69, "Units of Flyers", states that units of flyers follow the normal rules for flyers, except for a couple of exceptions. One of which are that they operate as skirmishers. For the record, pegasus knights aren't the same as a vampire on Hellsteed, as they are flying cavalry, and use their own (in my book, messed up) rules set somewhere between ridden monsters and cavalry. The Hellsteed uses the cavalry rules exclusivly, only it happens to grant flight as well.

Ah okey... Isn't the real issue then that the vampire on hellsteed isn't "a unit of flyers?" He is a single model that flies.
Because all single characters are skirmishers but loses that ability when mounted or when reaching higher US than 1, or am I wrong? :S

Makaber
15-04-2008, 01:31
Ah okey... Isn't the real issue then that the vampire on hellsteed isn't "a unit of flyers?" He is a single model that flies.
Because all single characters are skirmishers but loses that ability when mounted or when reaching higher US than 1, or am I wrong? :S

Nope, that's pretty much the jist of it.

VC Doke
15-04-2008, 01:31
In my book, it cannot join a unit, because it is a flying creature. I expect the intention of the rule was aimed towards flying monsters and this might be confusing to some, but the facts are pretty clear to me. Is the vampire "on" something? Yes. Is it a creature? Yes. Does it fly? Most certainly.



Does the fact that it is on a calvary base override the fact that it flies? You can put a vampire on a nightmare in a unit of skellies and that makes less sense than putting a hellsteed with some Blood Knights.

I dunno...

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2008, 01:38
Page 72, a character on a flying mount cannot join units.(under character's joining units)
Page 72 again, a character on a cavalry base moves like a monster(see page 59).
Page 59, monsters have a 90 degree line of sight.

So you cant join units and he doesnt have a 360 degree line of sight.

VC Doke
15-04-2008, 01:40
Thank you for clearing that up.

Makaber
15-04-2008, 01:50
Does the fact that it is on a calvary base override the fact that it flies? You can put a vampire on a nightmare in a unit of skellies and that makes less sense than putting a hellsteed with some Blood Knights.

I dunno...

The nightmare is a normal horse though, right? Because in that case, you can put it in the unit of skeletons due to the fact that it's not a flying creature. Again, the original idea with the rule stating that no character on a flying creature can ever join units was probably to prevent absurdities like a chaos lord on a dragon, hiding out in a unit of marauders and thus being immune to shooting.

The cavalry base has nothing to do with it, because the rules are about flying creatures, and not flying monsters. Since creatures encompass all kinds of organic entities in the game, he could be mounted on a flying dwarf and it would have made no difference.

Just to quote some rules to get it abundantly clear:

Page 7, "Unit Types": "The term cavalry refers to riders mounted on horse-sized creatures that have only 1 Wound in their profile, mounted on a 25mm by 50mm 'cavalry' base".

Page 72, "Characters & Units": "Characters mounted on flying creatures cannot join units."

Chicago Slim
15-04-2008, 02:31
Again, the original idea with the rule stating that no character on a flying creature can ever join units was probably to prevent absurdities like a chaos lord on a dragon, hiding out in a unit of marauders and thus being immune to shooting.

Nah-- the Dragon would already be a Large Target, and so could be targeted, even if it were in a unit (which, as we've said, it can't be).

As for "why", I buy the justification that's actually given in the book: flyers need more room to move (unless you're riding a HUMMINGBIRD!), and so can't stay in any kind of ranked-up unit, nor even a unit of skirmishers. My extension to that flavour-text is that the only flyers who CAN keep a formation are the ones that specifically and consistently train to do so. This also would explain (if you're into the whole "explanation for the rules of the fantasy toy soldiers game" thing) why flying characters can't join units of flyers (the characters aren't trained in flying in formation...)


But, as you've pointed out, the rules are clear, and the tactic illegal. Maybe we should take the rest of this to the Background forum?

Dark_Mage99
15-04-2008, 12:48
There is nowhere to say it uses a cavalry base, either. Pegasus Knights are on monster sized based if I remember correctly.

However, it's a bit of a sticky situation. Someone posted further up about it giving a +1 to armour save - which I think might come under the flying cavalry rules. If it does this, then it also has 360 sight because flying cavalry has 360 sight. If it doesn't have 360 sight, then it isn't flying cavalry, and doesn't give a bonus to your armour save.

Oberon
15-04-2008, 13:15
Why it wouldn't? It is not a monster (those don't grant you AS), but a mount (AS). As a mount, it limits your los, and as it can fly it takes away your ability to join units, but it does give bigger US and flying movement. In my opinion, it is clear it uses a cavalry base, it is nothing like pegasus (except it can fly).

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2008, 13:19
It's a single wound steed.
It uses a calvalry base.

Rubicon
15-04-2008, 13:39
Biggest advantage to my mind is that it doesn't take up any of your bloodline power allowance, so you can fly without it taking 30pts away from your allowance. I like the idea of flying around behind the enemy (possible if you are careful with LOS and the like) and summoning massive units of zombies!

Arguleon-veq
15-04-2008, 14:03
At least with a Hellsteed you can cause Terror and Fly whilst still having the Wristbands. Thats fairly handy.

Latro
15-04-2008, 16:25
I must say that I'm quite intrigued by the lack of information on the Hellsteed ... as far as i can see:

- there is no model of it (yet?) to check
- there is no mention of US
- there is no mention of granting an armour save
- there isn't even a clear answer if it's a steed or ridden monster

... most answers so far are based on the hunch that it will probably be on a cavalry base. Why? There's no rule to point that out, only more assumptions. Is it on a cavalry base because it grants an armour save? Does it grant an armour save because it's on a cavalry base? It is on a cavalry base because it has 1 wound (one of the few actual facts) and is US 2? Is it US 2 because it's on a cavalry base?

What do we actually know about this thing?


:confused:

Atrahasis
15-04-2008, 16:33
Any 1-wound mount is cavalry, 2 or more wounds is a monster (or a chariot if it has the Chariot rule).

Avian
15-04-2008, 16:36
It's worth noting that the Nurgle Palanquin, despite being defined as a cavalry mount, comes on a 50 mm square base.

But most of Latro's questions are quite clear from the rules.

My guess is that it will come on a 40 or 50 mm square base, as it would probably tip over a lot on a cavalry base.

2d6
15-04-2008, 16:47
Biggest advantage to my mind is that it doesn't take up any of your bloodline power allowance, so you can fly without it taking 30pts away from your allowance. I like the idea of flying around behind the enemy (possible if you are careful with LOS and the like) and summoning massive units of zombies!

I think having a 360 sight arc instead of the 90 on the hellsteed might be a bigger advantage, but i guess it depends on the build you're going for.

Latro
15-04-2008, 17:09
Any 1-wound mount is cavalry, 2 or more wounds is a monster (or a chariot if it has the Chariot rule).

... page 7 claims that creatures with only 1 wound and mounted on a 25 by 50mm base are cavalry. So what base does it have? Reasoning in circles to prove anything doesn't work.


:cool:

Atrahasis
15-04-2008, 18:06
... page 7 claims that creatures with only 1 wound and mounted on a 25 by 50mm base are cavalry. So what base does it have? Reasoning in circles to prove anything doesn't work.I'm not reasoning in circles - the rules for monstrous mounts exclude mounts with a single wound.

Latro
15-04-2008, 18:14
I'm not reasoning in circles - the rules for monstrous mounts exclude mounts with a single wound.

Ah! That clear things up a bit ... the rule that makes it cavalry is found under "monstrous mounts". Now why didn't I think of looking there ... :D

On a sidenote: the page 7 rule defining cavalry is somewhat misleading then because a cavalry steed for a character doesn't always need to have a 25 by 50mm base.


:cool:

Mezziah
15-04-2008, 21:25
Page 72 again, a character on a cavalry base moves like a monster(see page 59).
Page 59, monsters have a 90 degree line of sight.

So you cant join units and he doesnt have a 360 degree line of sight.

Well... What does the fact that a character on a cavalry base MOVES like a monster to do with it's line of sight? Just because it moves like a monster doesn't mean IT IS a monster.

Can anyone explain why a vampire mounted on a Hellsteed isn't a flying skirmisher and has 360 vision?

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2008, 21:38
Page 72...the previously referenced moves like a monster.

Page 59 (again previously referenced)...look at the diagram at the bottom right hand corner that you are told to look at to determine the monsters line of sight.

Hence...he doesnt get a 360 degree line of sight.

Belerophon709
15-04-2008, 21:55
Can anyone explain why a vampire mounted on a Hellsteed isn't a flying skirmisher and has 360 vision?

Because characters on their own are not skirmishers. They're just single models.
In this case it's a single model with a US of 2 (1 wound mount + character (1) = 2). And single models with a US of 2 don't get a 360 degree arc of sight. That's restricted to single models with a US of 1, skirmishers, units of fliers (note that Tzeentchian Screamers from the HoC-book have 2W, but still count as US1-models since they fall under the definition "units of fliers" - hence they have 360 degree arc of sight, even though they're mounted on 40mm-bases, just like peg knights) and flying cavalry.
As there is no mention in the VC book of it being flying cavalry, it simply isn't. Cavalry that flies doesn't necessarily follow the rules for flying cavalry. It only does so if so labelled.

Now:

-Since it's a flying mount, it can't join units (A flying character without a mount would be able to, but that's not the question here).
-Since it isn't a skirmisher or count as flying cavalry, it has a 90 degree arc of sight, as regular cavalry.
-Since it is regular cavalry (which just happens to be able to fly), it adds +1 AS.

Malorian
15-04-2008, 21:55
This sounds a lot like the wraiths/destroyers of the necrons that MOVE like jetbikes, but aren't jetbikes themselves.

Karhedron
15-04-2008, 21:56
Personally I like fighty vamps. For me the best thing about the Hellstead is it grants access to the lovely Dreadlance! :evilgrin: Chuck in Wristbands of Black gold, the mandatory Red Fury (and any other Bloodline powers you fancy) and then go off and kill stuff.

There are probably subtler and cleverer ways to use the Hellstead but for me it is a nice cheap delivery mechanism for up to 8 S7 attacks.

Spirit
16-04-2008, 18:28
My favorite hellsteed is a hero with the helm of command, lvl 2 and a powerstone. He jumps around merilly giving any unit that happens to get to close combat, WS6. He has no armour save, but i just don't let the enemy shoot him. Ive had him die once so far, and that was to a lucky fanactic.

He can heal your units, has 2 other spells (one of which can always be "give me zombies") so he supports your army so well. The powerstone is just there because i have the black periapt on another character, and it helps!

And he allows any unit you want, to march. Flying might not be the most valuable tool, but combined with a spell that only hass 12" range and the helm of command, it becomes much much more viable. Much like everything else in the vampire armoury, on its own it isn't amazing, but combined with other things they shine.

Edit: And if your worried about saves, avatar of death for a 3+ save is great.

Eisenhorn
17-04-2008, 14:18
I made a hellsteed 1 week ago and mounted it on a 50x50 base just because of its size. I must go with the others on it being a cavalery that just happens to fly. So 90 degeree los us2 and +1 to armour.

My favorite hellsteed charather has to be:

Vampier + Dark acolyte + Avatar of Death
Scepter of noirot, Enchanted shield, Balefire spike

So he can fly, Raise 10+d3 zombies behind or in front of the enemy and has 3 strength 7 + 1 strength 4 attack on the charge

I think that is quite nasty

de Selby
17-04-2008, 14:40
Bah, I asked about bases for hellsteeds in another thread: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132340

and got a unanimous 'cavalry base' answer. The best justification I could find for this was that it's definitely not a monster. Now I'm unsure again. Is there any chance GW will actually bring out a model?

Spirit
17-04-2008, 15:19
Well i made my one out of a Pegasus knight so i used its base. Noone has complained thus far so i don't intend to re base it.