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vinush
15-04-2008, 14:32
This happened last night in a game, and we had to dice roll to decide what the outcome was. That aside, I decided to come here for other opinions.

The Background:

-Unit of KotR overrun into helblaster crew in Bret Player's turn.
-Empire turn, two Swordsmen units (20 strong with supporting character in each) flank charge from either side.

The question is as follows:

Do mthe KotR get their strength bonus from lances against the Swordsmen units?

I said no, as the Swordsmen charged, meaning they would strike first, then the knights would get to strike with their bonus to the front only, then the hellblaster crew would get to fight.
Bret Player said yes, as they still count as charging that turn.

The dice roll in the game turned up in his favour, which was fine for the game, but I was after some kind of clarification on this.

Opinions, comments, evidence from the rules?

TYIA

\/ince.

SuperBeast
15-04-2008, 14:43
The only stipulation for the +2S from the lance is that the unit has charged, NOT that they count as charging against a specific unit.

With regard to the swordsmen, attacks between opposing units who both count as charging are resolved in initiative order.

Malorian
15-04-2008, 14:52
I don't have that quote but units that charged that turn (the swordsmen) go first.

vinush
15-04-2008, 14:53
My argument was that the knighs have not charged the swordsmen, so they wouldn't get the strength bonus against those units. The Knights only count as charging, whereas the swordsmen units actually charged that turn.

Not wanting to sound like I'm doubting you, but can you give a reference for that second part?

I only ask because we always play that a countercharging detachment strikes before the oringinal charging unit.

\/ince.

Atrahasis
15-04-2008, 15:00
Detachments are different - they have their own rules.

In any other case (as here) chargers on opposing sides strike in initiative order (page 45).

The knights get their charge bonus, as they are charging.

Feefait
15-04-2008, 16:12
I would say they get the charge bonus against the unit they charged. if they get side charged then how would they have any sort of impact from the lance formation? I agree to strike in initiative order, but the knights shouldn't get the str bonus against the swordsmen. IMO. :)

SO I called GW Direct here in the States on this as it is really a good question and I could argue it either way. What they said (Thanks Keith!) was that the knights only get the strength bonus against the unit they charged, not against whoever charges them. And that attacks are resolved in the order in which the units charged. SO I would say 1. knights on crew. 2. swords on knights. 3. intitative from there. SOund right?

SuperBeast
15-04-2008, 17:45
Sadly, another swing and miss for the Roolzboyz.

Read the CC weapon rules on page 56.

Will the knights attack before the volleygun crew? Yes.
Why? Because they charged.

The knights count as charging.
Therefore they get the +2S.
The fact they are counter-charged means nothing.

The lance rules do not differentiate to the level you want them to.

Crazy Harborc
16-04-2008, 01:38
I say go with the knights charged the crew....that's a plus for charging. The swordsmen charged the knights. The knights would have to move sideways to have charged the units that hit the knights in the flank.

T10
16-04-2008, 07:07
I would say they get the charge bonus against the unit they charged. if they get side charged then how would they have any sort of impact from the lance formation? I agree to strike in initiative order, but the knights shouldn't get the str bonus against the swordsmen. IMO. :)

SO I called GW Direct here in the States on this as it is really a good question and I could argue it either way. What they said (Thanks Keith!) was that the knights only get the strength bonus against the unit they charged, not against whoever charges them. And that attacks are resolved in the order in which the units charged. SO I would say 1. knights on crew. 2. swords on knights. 3. intitative from there. SOund right?

Well, it is nice to know that this is in fact merely your opinion, an opinion you share with at least one other person.

Atrahasis ^v is right: the bonus applies.

-T10

Feefait
16-04-2008, 13:12
I guess heres where playing in the spirit of the rules would come into effect then. It just doesn't make sense fluff wise for the lances to work against the swordsmen. But reading exactly word for word it doesn't say they don't get the bonus, right? Still, we'd play it only against the crew.

vinush
16-04-2008, 13:52
The argument against them getting the bonus is that they are being charged by the swordsmen units, so therefore are not charging them.

However the nice rulez boy I spoke to in Nottingham on the phone goes with them getting the bonus, as they do count as charging.

Guess that's as close to official as can be.

Thanks to everyone who has offered interpretations and opinions and advice.

\/ince.

Caboose123
16-04-2008, 16:27
I guess heres where playing in the spirit of the rules would come into effect then. It just doesn't make sense fluff wise for the lances to work against the swordsmen. But reading exactly word for word it doesn't say they don't get the bonus, right? Still, we'd play it only against the crew.

It can be justified.

Remember that movement isnt taken in turns in Fluff, and that they dont fight in perfect blocks either. Its entirely possible that the knights could be charging the swordsmen who are running at their sides. (or something)

Almost everything can be justified by fluff, dont say otherwise.

Atrahasis
16-04-2008, 16:33
the spirit of the rules ... fluffThe spirit of the rules has nothing whatsoever to do with fluff.

Damocles8
17-04-2008, 00:14
SInce this isn't a detachment situation, but one of those nice sticky rare ones......I would generally count it as a detachment situation, just because there isn't any other type of situation covered in the rulebook....

Atrahasis
17-04-2008, 08:47
Yes, yes it is covered in the rulebook. It's different from a detachment situation.

Dvil
17-04-2008, 08:59
I would say the fluff does in fact agree with that. What's happening is the swordsmen are getting into combat before the knights can attack, so they must be charging nigh on simultaneously. The knights could easily point their lances out to the side to meet the counter-charging troops, thus spearing them with ther momentum.

warlord hack'a
17-04-2008, 15:33
and talking fluff: if a tigh column of knights charges, then they do not stop, period. They run straight through enemy swordsmen unless these men happen to be armed with spears or very big shields or are very densely packed together..

Tarax
20-04-2008, 13:33
P. 45: Pursuit into Fresh Enemy.

Hope it helps.

BloodiedSword
20-04-2008, 17:48
Wasn't this explicitly FAQ'd to say that the knights do count as charging and to think of it as the knights using the momentum of the counter-charging unit against them?

Dragon Prince of Caledor
20-04-2008, 21:38
I would just say that common sense says that the brets hit the crew with their lances before they were charged. Therefore they attack first against the bret crew with benefit of their lances then the crew strike back assuming they are still alive. Then the swordsmen. But the knights have lowered their lances to the crew so they should not get the +2s against the swordsmen it doesnt make sense imo.

SuperBeast
21-04-2008, 01:20
Making sense doesn't enter into it.

As pointed out above, page 45 of the BRB explicitly explains ALL the points here.
This really is not an oddball situation!

exsulis
21-04-2008, 01:33
Rules as written I'd say the knights get their charge bonus against the crew, and swordmen; Brets would go first against the crew, then swordmen go, and any knights/horses. that didn't want to waste their attacks against the crew can attack back.

Play wise amongst friends I would only do the +2 against the crew, and not the whole combat.

SuperBeast
21-04-2008, 08:11
Erm... why?

Atrahasis
21-04-2008, 10:19
Rules as written I'd say the knights get their charge bonus against the crew, and swordmen; Brets would go first against the crew, then swordmen go, That isn't what the rules say.

EvC
21-04-2008, 11:17
Wasn't this explicitly FAQ'd to say that the knights do count as charging and to think of it as the knights using the momentum of the counter-charging unit against them?

It most certainly was, but why let that get in the way of a silly rules debate?

exsulis
21-04-2008, 18:45
Do the Bretonnians count as charging? Yes, and per the rules for the lance, and charging they get the bonus for the whole combat(as there are zero restrictions as to how it aplies).