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brassangel
15-04-2008, 20:00
I have commented on such an idea in another thread, but I felt as though it is more appropriate here.

I'm doing a themed Bretonnian army from the Dukedom of Mousillon; which, of course, is basically shunned by the rest of the civilized kingdom, and the Lady. To keep with that fluff, I'm developing a Duke and Paladins who choose to wield morningstars, and other dark weapons to the traditional lances (though not all), and they forgoe the Blessing of the Lady as she has essentially written them off. While this puts me at a disadvantage, I was wondering what people feel about morningstars vs. lances, what good combinations of weapons/virtues/magic items could be used (within flavor), and what, if any, experience [you] have with such an idea in game play.

Thanks.

P.S. Sticking with 1000-1500 points.

brassangel
16-04-2008, 13:51
Seriously, nothing?

][nquist0r
16-04-2008, 13:56
Are they allowed weapons other than lances?

happy_doctor
16-04-2008, 13:57
The morningstar of fracasse might be worth it; giving it to the paladin who's your general will ensure he doesn't get killed by "no armour saves" weapons and the such...

Grail knights are out of the question, as they are basically the Lady's champions, so the only rare choice available is the trebuchet.

Peasants would fit in with the theme and provide for a fun game for both you and your opponent.

You could even use units of questing knights armed with flails and morning stars to further your theme.

Hope this helps, maybe other members can give more insight

brassangel
16-04-2008, 14:55
Thanks, happy_doctor. I will not include Grail Knights as a unit, as that makes perfect sense, fluffwise. And yes, ][nquisit0r, they have an array of weapons options available to them for specific points costs. Everybody goes with the lance because of the general feel of the army, and the fact that the lance formation relies specifically on the charge for the greatest effect.

Morningstars add to strength during the first turn of combat? Or how exactly do they work?

Lord Dan
16-04-2008, 15:13
Zombie archers, lots of undead knights (I would buy a skeleton or grave guard box to combine with the bretonnian knight sprue), I always thought it would be cool to convert a trebuchet by using a giant throwing boulders (zombie giant, anyone?).

Kahadras
16-04-2008, 15:46
Well if you want to go for an 'anti Lady' army then I'd sugest keeping your knight choices down to the basic Knights of the relm and Knights Errant. I'd then just use plenty of peasants and forego the use of the blessing.

Kahadras

Keller
17-04-2008, 16:42
Morningstars add to strength during the first turn of combat? Or how exactly do they work?

Morningstars add +1 S in the first round of combat, regardless of whether you charged or not. Since they are 1 handed, you can still use a shield. The advantage to a morningstar over a lance is if you are charged, or would lose charge bonuses for some reason (Peasant stakes maybe?)

I like morningstars, and used them on my Empire knights a few times with the legendary orders rules that came out in WD some time ago. Not as devastating as lances, but they beat a greatweapon at times, as long as you don't need more than 1 turn to fight.

brassangel
17-04-2008, 19:58
What's a good Bretonnian tactic for defeating Stubborn units? A lot of the game can be won via charging, but units which are Stubborn, or Dwarves in general, seem to be difficult. I thought about taking a crap-ton of peasant bowmen, but otherwise it's tough. After the charge I'm stuck with a bunch of WS 4, S 3, T 3 guys who are kind of lame in those situations.

happy_doctor
17-04-2008, 21:33
You could always make use of questing knights (s5 all the time), paladins with magic weapons (not lances - sword of might comes to mind) or charge with enough units to kill most of the unit on the same turn.

Peppering them with missile fire would be good as well, if you've invested in any, that is.

I've seen large units of knights with ridiculous static combat resolution used with great results as well. Errants are cheap enough to build a unit of 12+ with them; give them the War banner and you've got yourself a unit winning via CR without even dealing damage.

Uriain
17-04-2008, 23:23
Firstly, if you are thinking of doing the Mousillon Theme, I say awesome. I would use at least 2 big blocks (25+) of peasants and a good size unit of skirmishing bowmen (15+) as your core peasants plus a couple units of knights. If you Stick Closely with Knights of the Realm, then use a Unit of Questing Knights as your "Heavy Hitters" I think it would fit your theme very well. Your normal Knights obviously use Lances, but (for a fluff reason) you could say that the Questing Knights for your army have realized that the Lance represents the rest of bretonnia that turned on them (or however you want to word it) thus your characters and Questing knights discard their lace in favor of their personal favorite weapon. Your other Knights could be said to not have eaerned the right yet, or still need to prove themselves etc. For your characters. I would take a BSB with the Warbanner and Possible the Virtue of Discipline, a Duke with the Virtue of the Ideal, Morning Star of Frecasse, and the Armour of Agilulf. I think those are good character combo's for the fluff you are writing around. Plus, I have never used the Morning Star of Fracasse before, I might have to test it out lol

brassangel
18-04-2008, 01:07
I actually just got a killer deal on some pwnmen (Peasant Bowmen...it's a long story...), so I think I'll be taking a large, skirmishing rank of those.

While I enjoy the men-at-arms models, I hate how terrible they are rules-wise, though it's tough to argue with halberds.

The Questing Knights idea sounds good. It's the best I can do going without Grail Knights. The only issue is, Grail Knights could easily be converted from the standard Knights of Bretonnia box, where as Questing Knights (and their non-lance weaponry) are just expensive. If anyone has any ideas, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again happy_doctor and Uriain.

VC Doke
18-04-2008, 13:44
There are a couple regiments of the reknown that Bretts can still take. Look for some of them and stick them in.

kroq'gar
18-04-2008, 13:52
There are a couple regiments of the reknown that Bretts can still take. Look for some of them and stick them in.

Really? I thought brets were excluded completely (a relic from their previous 75% hero and no ally allowance).

They get the free bsb so no DOW.


Could work, although, i think the best bet would be lances, and make the shields and lances look battered, black and dirty.

Nothing special about the lances to differentiate them as 'good', they are a long sharp stick designed to kill and maim.

Count de Monet
18-04-2008, 15:07
I've been planning on a bandit lord type of Bret army, though not Mousillon. I'd say don't feel restricted in taking things, just rename them/redo the fluff for them. Instead of Damsels you've got witches, and instead of the blessing of the Lady you prep for the fight by invoking dark rituals, the "Grail Knights" are imbued with dark power, etc.

Von Wibble
18-04-2008, 18:07
Iirc wouldn't the Virtue of the Ideal (-1Ld, +W and A) be in character?

brassangel
18-04-2008, 19:57
Virtue of the ideal is +2 WS, +1 I, +1 A, -2 Ld for any friendly's within 6". It is definitely in character. Do I give it to the BSB, or just a straight up combat Paladin? Is it good to plop this one on a (dark) Pegasus, or is that too many points (1000-1500 total)?

I think it definitely makes sense, fluff-wise.

So far I have a million Pwnmen (Peasant Bowmen) and a million guys on horses. It looks like fun. Keep up the great ideas, folks!

happy_doctor
18-04-2008, 20:07
As far as questing knight models are concerned, I think buying the original ones is a good investment, as they are pretty much the best models in the whole line. In 1500 points you won't be needing more than a unit or two.

Still, you could convert them using flails and great weapons from the Marauder kit (I think...)

Why don't you try compiling a sample army list, so that we can focus our ideas better?

brassangel
18-04-2008, 21:59
Do you think it's better to do one giant skirmishing unit of bowmen; or three small units?

Example:

30 Peasant Bowmen, skirmishing

OR

10 Peasant Bowmen
10 Peasant Bowmen
10 Peasant Bowmen

EDIT: As for an army list, I'm looking at 1000 points as:

8 Knights Errant
8 Knights of the Realm
30 or so Peasant Bowmen
1 Paladin, BSB
1 Paladin, General
1 Damsel

I haven't figured out what to arm them with yet, as I haven't played under 7th edition rules much, so I don't know what is good in "come all" situations. My local area is Vampire Counts, High Elves (lots), and Dwarves.

EDIT 2: Since the question has come up in my PM, I'll quickly explain the reason for "Pwnmen."

Simply put, I have a friend who's Zombies have been consistently performing well in his Vampire Counts' army. Because of this, he has dubbed them "Zambownies" because they've been "owning" everything. It's also a play on the word Zamboni, the slow moving ice smoother seen frequently in hockey games. They've been slow, but smooth as ice, etc. He even considered converting a Corpse Cart to look like a Zamboni, if only for fun.

Well, Peasant Bowmen are also cheap, with crummy stats, but they seem to outperform their expectations in nearly every game I witness. Continuing the tradition of my local store, I wanted to give them a title worthy of their ability to "own" as well. Seeing as how "pwn" has become acceptable internet terminology for "own," and Peasant Bowmen contains all the letters therein, I have dubbed them "Pwnmen" for short, and it's caught on at the store.

Lord Raneus
18-04-2008, 22:54
For stubborn units, you most likely will be tarpitted. Just make sure you charge a good Hero into the combat so he can help your unit finish them, and re-form the frontage to get more attacks in as Lance is only really great on the charge.

I would suggest Questing Knights, but they don't fit. Try and pile in with some peasants the next turn, or give a unit of peasants a Foot Hero and fight the stubborn unit with a tarpit of your own.

brassangel
19-04-2008, 00:22
Are Questing Knights efficient at dealing with Stubborn Units?

By the way, does anyone have any Bretonnians, or an extra pocket-sized rulebook for sale? :D

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 14:56
They're more efficient than KOTR or KE because they will have Strength 5 at all times, even though they strike last. Thus, they will kill far more of a Stubborn unit than S3 KOTR or KE. You could proxy the rules as something else, I suppose, perhaps Questing Knights that have fallen into the power of Mousillon or just greatsword-wielding knights.

brassangel
20-04-2008, 06:32
Anyone know where I could get some greatsword bitz? Can't bitz order from GW anymore it seems; I haven't been to their website in years. It's easier to convert standard knights for $35 than $50 for a box of 5.

Uriain
20-04-2008, 08:07
Possibly ebay. I dont know, have not bitz ordered in a long time. Though if what I hear is true, looks like I gotta canabalize alot of old models for cool bitz

brassangel
20-04-2008, 18:55
Was there anything inherently wrong with this list in 1000 points for a come-all army?


8 Knights Errant
8 Knights of the Realm
30 or so Peasant Bowmen
1 Paladin, BSB
1 Paladin, General
1 Damsel

I also didn't receive an answer to whether it's better to go 30 Pwnmen, skirmishing; or, 10 Pwnmen+10 Pwnmen+10 Pwnmen.

brassangel
21-04-2008, 19:52
I also think that I may use a Teutonic theme in the paint scheme. Like Mousillon, they were once a part of the greater fold of western Europe. Eventually, they developed their own small nation, much to the begrudgment of the Holy Roman Empire, England, Rome, France, and the Norse lands. They hunted pagans, of course, but were eventually hated by their neighbors for their self-proclaimed sovereignty.

EDIT: Is it worth it to buy the full command for Pwnmen?

brassangel
23-04-2008, 17:39
I can't decide if 8 or 9 Knights (of the Realm or Errant) is the right number. Both give the benefits of the Lance formation, but 9 gives you a free casualty before losing attacks. Are the points worth the extra Knight in smaller games?