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Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 20:58
As part of a campaign I'm planning I though it would be interesting to have a jungle fight in a similar style to Predator. The story with this bit of the campaign is that a squad of marines has become isolated form the main detachment, dodgy drop pod or something and have landed in the jungle where they are being stalked by an alien lifeform.

So the problem I'm having is selecting what to use. My instinct was a lictor versus a squad of marines. But Im not sure this would be fair. Each marine would be acting independently and the battle would bein a format similar to what LoTR is like.

What units would you use for a good entertaining duel, although i'd like it be be realistic, no carnifex running around a jungle stalking a squad of marines. Coud you think of any extra rules that would go with the fight?

Victomorga
15-04-2008, 21:02
are you dead set on a single alien bad-guy, as opposed to a small group of them?

MaliGn
15-04-2008, 21:08
Just use guardsmen instead of marines, use a points equivalency with a lictor's worth.

Alternatively choose 5 marines and use the points for a lictor, eg five marines plus either a special or power weapon or similar upgrade you get two lictors.... doesn't have to match exactly, just approximately, maybe the two lictors acting independantly represent one uber-licotr that can appear to be in two places at once.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 21:30
Just use guardsmen instead of marines, use a points equivalency with a lictor's worth.

Alternatively choose 5 marines and use the points for a lictor, eg five marines plus either a special or power weapon or similar upgrade you get two lictors.... doesn't have to match exactly, just approximately, maybe the two lictors acting independantly represent one uber-licotr that can appear to be in two places at once.

its gotta to be marines. The whole campaign is another kind of heresy setting, all the legions and chapters coming together to fight but at the same time, each legion is having to deal with different xenos threats on their way.

It doesnt have to be 1 alien, but i cant be loads as i havent got hundreds of trees to make a big enough jungle.

eek107
15-04-2008, 21:34
A handful of Genestealers would probably be better. Or a couple of Raveners. Heck, even 1 Ravener would be scarier than a Lictor. :p

Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 22:00
i dounbt my friend wodul be happy about fighting genestealers in the jungle given the amount of times my genestealers have ripped his MEQs up.

I dont have the bgb so i dont have the rules for kill teams or sentries or something like that so im having to make my own up

Adiem
15-04-2008, 22:05
This is a really cool idea; the lictor's definitely the right model, and the right fluff, but I can see why people aren't sure about its rules! Might be worth house-ruling something you can all agree on, particularly in making the lictor a bit hardier...

Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 22:16
but since the marines arent able to co-ordinate its unlikely that the lictor will be fightning more than 2 mairnes at one time and chances are a lictor could handle one or two marines.

bassmasterliam
15-04-2008, 22:18
I would use Catachans on lictors. But thats just me.

Adiem
15-04-2008, 22:22
but since the marines arent able to co-ordinate its unlikely that the lictor will be fightning more than 2 mairnes at one time and chances are a lictor could handle one or two marines.

This is a very fair point - maybe you should just have a crack at it? I'd be really interesting in seeing how it turns out, seems like a nice idea for a 40K minigame..

Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 22:29
catachans would be cool but like i've already said its a marine campaign and i dont have any guard

Latro_
15-04-2008, 23:32
Why not just convert something up? Play test it a bit.
GW even have some rules for such an occassion like this (click PDF Rules):

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/creatures/1/

good luck.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-04-2008, 23:53
i've tried making a jungle like creature using the creature feature but it generally turns out to be a weak lictor. Maybe taking a lictor and giving him some biomorphs that he doesnt normally get for the same price as carnfiexes take might help develop a challenging enough character.

Latro_
15-04-2008, 23:59
But Im not sure this would be fair. Each marine would be acting independently and the battle would bein a format similar to what LoTR is like.

Sounds like a underpowered lictor is what you are after ;)
That list is just a guide at the end of the day. Nothing to stop you adding stuff to it.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 00:04
I might do some playtesting tomorrow using a normal lictor agaisnt 5 marines and a flamer and then see how it goes form there.
The board will be all trees so the whole board will count as cover giving the lictor the obvious advantage but grenades will not work because of the surprise element

Latro_
16-04-2008, 00:14
Something i came up with on a whim with the jungle predator theme in mind

Medium -151pts
5,-,5,5,9,5,9,10,4+

Bipedal
Fleet
4+sv
+1T,+1S,+8W,+8A,+1ws,+1I

Camoflage (+1 cover sv)
Fearful presence -1 LD
Hit and run


151pts!!! as much as a squad of 10 bog standard marines.
Can tell me with 9 wounds, 9 attacks an all that other jazz its not a mean mutha

Draconian77
16-04-2008, 00:25
Just make a normal Lictor T5 or W3-4.

It depends on the objective, is the objective just to kill the alien or is it to achieve other objectives whilst not being eaten alive?

If your doing it LOtr style consider giving the Lictor random movement, 2D6 ish sounds about right.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 01:10
I think the objective for the amrines is to escape the jungle so that tjey may link up with the rest of the army. If thewy suceed in the next mission that unit will be availible, if they marines are killed then they are unable to volunteer in the next battle.

the campaign is Marines vs Chaos, this has to be a loyalist mission.

Latro, im not sure you can have 9 wounds. ti says each attribute can only be taken a max of 3 times.

A broodlord could be an alternative although doesnt have the stealth stalker imagery attached to it.

Angelus Mortis
16-04-2008, 01:22
If you really want to have a blast with this, try to find a copy of the old Catachan Codex. It has awesome rules for fighting in jungle terrain.

MrLiy
16-04-2008, 02:24
I know that fairness is obviously very important in all games, but we sometimes assume that points equal fairness. Which we all know is not true. 3 Guardsmen do not equal one space marine. Although the guardsmen are 3 points more.

My suggestion is to pick 1 Lictor model, 1 standard 10 space marine squad. (I would suggest the marine player uses his most common build for this squad to represent the average squad fighting this monstrosity) As for the Lictor design your own I would recommend.

5 WS
5 S
4 T
6 I
2 A
4+ Inv

Bottomline as long a both players agree it should be ok.

Preston
16-04-2008, 02:40
what about warriors and ripper swarms?

Captin Korea!
16-04-2008, 02:49
You could always try a daemon instead of a lictor. Maybe use a nurgle herald?

centy
16-04-2008, 04:46
use the old catachan jungle figther rules but but apply the rules and penalties to your senaro

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 11:25
can u still get the catachan rules. First stage playt testing will start toiday .

Müller
16-04-2008, 11:43
I say go with something along the lines of a in-between rank status-marines... where they have characteristics like normal marines, but can take a minimal amount of wargear (P-fist, plasma pistols, etc...)

That keeps the marine's numbers down and not making them too powerful for a licor to handle, but then they can also, individually at least have a shot of taking it down...
If fear is what you're looking for then a slight chance to kill it, but slim to none of marine survival is what you're looking for... (think United Aerospace Marine Corps in the movie Aliens vs. the Alien Queen :evilgrin: )

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 13:30
First playtest isa complete. Licotr killed 5 marines, losing1 wound.
The way I played it was a set the marines up at one end and three blips the other. The marines gt first turn and movede they were in difficult terrain as did the lictor. Whea marine came withing 4" of a blip then a roll of a 3+ revealed a lictor and the marine was free to assault it. (as if that was a wise idea) Normal combat rules applied. Any marines who had not movved prior to the dicover of the licotr obviously moved towards the lictor to help out assaulting if possilbe. If the lictor was able to defeat the mainres then ther lictor woudl disappear again and the 3 blips would be used again.
Any suggestions on ow to make it better?

MaliGn
16-04-2008, 13:37
Auspexes could increase the range at which the Lictor can be detected.

How many Marines did you use?

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 13:51
first time i only used 5 marines.

Just done a second test using 10 marines, any marine modelled with an aspex is able to re-roll to see if the blip becomes a lictor. Anyway when using 10, I coudl that if the lictor isnt able to kill all the mainres he is fighting with then he'll quickly get mobbed. At one point the lictor was facing 17 s4 charges. Lucky the lictor only suffered 1 wound and then went on to rip another into pieces with his rending claws but fighting 7 marines at the same time was too much.

Give a 10 man squad of marines with worth 160pts with veteran sarge i might add another lictor. By having two that'll mean the marines will have three decisions to make. 1. help out killing the first lictor. 2. look for the second lictor or 3. run!!!!!

Sholto
16-04-2008, 14:08
Costing 124 points, this would be a dangerous beast to face in a forest. It Infiltrates and uses its superior movement (Fleet) to find the optimal place to attack from. Then it uses its Disorienting Attack to split the enemy up, charges up to 12", and tries to engage and kill just one enemy model using its Rushing Attack, Razor Claws and superior initiative. Then it uses Hit and Run to try and get away from the remaining squad members, and repeat the exercise. If it does not kill its target, or if it gets engaged by other members of the squad, its T5 and Inv Save should help keep it alive long enough to jump away.

Regeneration and 4 Wounds should ensure it will last the whole game, unless cornered and forced to fight multiple enemies.

As a specialised forest predator, I would also rule that models assaulted by this beast do not get the normal initiative benefits from being in cover (provided the cover in question is a forest, of course!). Say an extra 10 points for that. I would also rule that when assaulting, it would have to use its Rushing Attack rather than attacking normally. If it was assaulted, of course, it would use its 3 Rending attacks rather than its Rushing Attack.

Bandersnatch
Medium Creature

WS5, S5, T5, W4, I7, A3, Ld10, Sv 6+/5+

Quadrupedal (Fleet and charges 12")
Burrowing (Infiltrate or Deep Strike)
Rushing Attack (just 1 attack, hits on a 4+, will instakill T4, armour saves reduced)
Razor Sharp Claws & Fangs (Rending)
Hit and Run (as per the USR)
Disorienting Attack (splits up squads d6 inches)
Camouflage (+1 Cover save)
Dodge (5+ inv save)
Regeneration (recovers Wounds)

Total cost: 124

This includes more than 25 points on abilities, but who cares - I would love to fight this thing!

Sholto

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 14:28
I've just ran the test again using 2 lictors and 2 5 man combat squads (although unit coherence can be lost due to a marine rolling low on the and allowing marines to shot at the lictor if they come within 4" and the blip turns inot a lictor. The 1st lictor killed 1 model and then consolidated d6" but the ther 4 men in the squad caught up with it and rapid fired it to death. The other lictor killed 1 marine and legged it before goign in to take another, fortunately the mairne survied and 3 more marines came in to help. The lictor managed to kill these marines and by that time the othert combat squad was well on its way to reaching the safety. The lictor pursued rolling 6's for 3 turns but it wasnt enough as 4 marines escaped.
I think I#ll run this test to see if the lictors are able to kill all the marines. This one has been my favourite so far as it wasnt too easy for the lictor but it provided decisiosn for the marines to make

Santiaghoul
16-04-2008, 15:24
As far as terrain goes, the old Jungle Fighting rules flipped the forest around. Instead of placing forests, you place clearings. The whole table is presumed to be forest and only the marked clearings are open. It really changes things. Short lines of sight, slower movements, etc.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 15:32
at the minute i dont have all the trees for im saying that the whole area is difficult terrain. Since i'm only playing on a 2'*3' area im having to reduce line of sight etc... I woudl prefer to use a 4'*4' board but i only have a small amount of space on my bedroom floor so im improvising.

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
16-04-2008, 15:59
Kill-team rules+nemesis?
Simplest solution

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 16:06
problem is i dont have the kill team rules, ionly have the mini rulebook and im dont know what nemesis is.

Terror of the East
16-04-2008, 16:09
For the alien use the rulles for one of the assassins!

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
16-04-2008, 16:15
Kill-team and nemesis should be found at the US or UK Gw websites, nemesis is a kill-team add-on that makes it possible to customise a boss-ish monster for kill teams to .. well, ikill

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 16:23
just checked both GW US and GW UK and cant them

Easy E
16-04-2008, 17:03
Here is where you can find the downloadable rules for Codex: Catachan and the jungel fighting rules: http://us.games-workshop.com/e-zine/issues/blackgobbo-40/default.htm

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 17:20
cheers Easy E, thats a great help. Are tyranids clever enought to make an ambush

Easy E
16-04-2008, 17:24
Yes.

Also, as for the tree issue, what they recommend in the book is to mark off areas using yarn, flock, or anything else you can find. Anything that isn't inside the yarn is considered jungle. Place one or two tree in that space as a marker, but the edge of the jungle is still the yarn, flock, etc.

I've played using these rules and it really changes the dynamics of a game. When you can only see to shoot 6" and are always moving as if in difficult terrain you have to rethink all of your usual tactics. If you make your jungle a Deathworld, you could make the terrain Dangerous instead of just difficult to add to the threat.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 18:19
just done another test using 2 lictors and 10 marines. 1 lictor whipped out 5 marines taking 1 wound in the process. It then went off to help the other lictor who was strugglign to dispatch the marines that had assault it. Onelictor was killed as the lictors took the squad down to one man. The sarge managed to wound the lictor but rolls a 5 to save the blow, in the next round the lictor who had 1 wound left at this point. THis format has been may favourite so far. I had planned adding the spooked rule form the catachan rules but noone rolled snake eyes

Müller
16-04-2008, 19:51
I think I have the kill team rules in a WD, if I find it I'll get the rules to you

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 20:18
Muller, thanks for the offer but I think i've refined the rules down to the tee. I've run 3 tests using 2 lictors and 10 marines nad he are the rules

1. move through difficult terrain. Marines rolls 2d6, lictors 3d6
2. firing range limited to 6"
3. each marine moves on his own. If a double 1 is rolled his cant move but he doesnt hold the rest of the team up.
4. marines achieve vicxtory is they make it off the board edge or kill both lictors. Lictors win if all marines are killed.
5. No turn limit.

The rules are quite simple and dont need any additional stuff. Basically its just the jungle fighting rules on a small scale. I might add more things like catachan devils or killer flora but thats for another time.

With respect to the campaign, if the marines make it off the board the whole squad can be used in the next battle and it doesnt count towards any FOC choices.

The next question is what chapter should be used in this mission: BT, Ultras or DA. Chaos probably shouldnt be used because they are much better individually what with having bolter and 2 close combat weapons.

Malachai
16-04-2008, 20:34
This whole thing reminds me about a mate of mine who has actualy some predator models in the same scale he ocassionally uses in 40K with own stats.
An Assasin would also do the trick i guess.
I think this inspires me for a battle this weekend.
Hell, maybe i'll get my catachans a paintjob, never liked them but this is cool.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 20:45
An assassin would be another mission. A vindicare has to dispatch a commander before he gets to contact the rest of his forces. there was a scenario like that in the old assassins codex. Probable with an assassin is that they are alot stronger and more effective then 2 lictors. How many points of space marines coudl an eversor rip through. A culexus is out of the question as it struggles to kill anythign on psychic.
Lictors have proved to be a good unit. Marines have better armoour, better weapons and there are more off them whilst lictors are faster and have rending claws. the mssion couldnt be played in the open as the lictors get shot to pieces. At least this way shooting is limited but still potentially fatal.
The random movement of each model is brillant. Someone may get left behind making the unit easy to attack whilst sometimes they may be closer together, if thats the case its best to hold off and hope the unit get separated.

Im getting drawn towards catachans now although i woudl only ever use them with jungle rules

Angelus Mortis
16-04-2008, 21:47
Heres a thought. Take a squad of Marines using the Movie Marine rules, Catachan Jungle rules, and give all Nids "without number". Then the goal is to see how long the Movie Marines will last and how much they will kill before they get snuffed. I mean, since this is about fun and not balance I think this would be stellar.

Zanzibarthefirst
16-04-2008, 22:18
where are the rules for movie marines? The last time isaw them they were in german and i havent gone german for over 7 years

Angelus Mortis
17-04-2008, 00:07
where are the rules for movie marines? The last time isaw them they were in german and i havent gone german for over 7 years

US WD 300.

Zanzibarthefirst
17-04-2008, 00:38
would that be WD 300 or 301?

Angelus Mortis
17-04-2008, 01:51
Not sure for UK. However, I have heard that it wasn't in the corresponding UK WD.

Heres an ebay link to some I found in a search. White Dwarf Collections including US WD 300 (http://search.ebay.com/White-Dwarf-300_W0QQcatrefZC6QQdfspZ32QQfromZR40QQftrtZ1QQftrv Z1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZQ2d1QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQssPageN ameZRC0021QQ_trksidZp1638Q2em120)

Koryphaus
17-04-2008, 02:19
Use the old Lictor rules from the previous dex. The way the lictor worked in those rules is very much the way Predator seems to hunt. Alternatively use the Mandrake rules from Codex: DE.

Sounds like a great new way to play a game of combat patrol. Mind if I use your idea?

Zanzibarthefirst
17-04-2008, 02:26
please feel free to use it.

If I am able to encourage people to pick up old rules etc... then that'll be brilliant