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wolvenblade
16-04-2008, 01:56
I am not in possesion of the leaked pdf so I figured out what I could from rumors. So my question is what happens if you have the fleet special rule and then you run? This cant possible mean that you can move 2d6 plus 6 can it? Any explanation would be helpful.
Thanks

Dooks Dizzo
16-04-2008, 02:07
If you have fleet you may assault in the assault phase after running. That's it.

For the ten millionth time.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-04-2008, 02:14
Surely you haven't been on Warseer that often, Dizzo? :p

Dooks Dizzo
16-04-2008, 02:21
Okay you got me :)

Joewrightgm
16-04-2008, 02:22
and so we can kick it off proppa . . .

Fleet has been 'nerfed' because eldar 'pay' for the ability in the cost of their models, and is not as rare as it once was.

Also the arguement that run is bad for gunlines. Good says I. No i don't care what people think. Yes, I am an a$$hole, and I approved this post.

wolvenblade
16-04-2008, 02:37
Thanks all.



Yes, I am an a$$hole, and I approved this post.

I have to sig that.

Dooks Dizzo
16-04-2008, 03:31
Gunlines are boring and easily beaten in the current rules set. Just use your head a bit. Using 25% terrain and a switch off placement system you can get plenty of cover in the center of the board.

A properly mobile force that sets up in an 'over load the flank' formation will cause 50% of a gunline to be out of range or LOS for the first several turns. Once you get in close on them get into assaults, further block LOS and just roll them up.

Joewrightgm
16-04-2008, 03:42
Its not that I can't beat gunlines. I just don't like them on principle.

Dooks Dizzo
16-04-2008, 04:32
Well then I am going to agree with you on principle.

HsojVvad
17-04-2008, 03:49
so everyone is getting them for free while other armies had to pay for it? that is not fair

Jwolf
17-04-2008, 04:04
The ones who paid for it get to assault afterwards; the others do not. So you're paying for being able to assault, not move. Excuse me if I don't cry for you.

HsojVvad
18-04-2008, 00:13
The ones who paid for it get to assault afterwards; the others do not. So you're paying for being able to assault, not move. Excuse me if I don't cry for you.

big deal we get to assault. So now you are getting it for free what we had to pay for. You don't have to pay for Fleet on turn 1,2 and 3. You get it for free now.

So before we get to fleet, now all it is is just to assault? I can't see why you say you won't cry for me, I am just trying to say that it dosn't seem fair.

Explain to me why it's fair then?

What i am trying to say is you guys are getting a free trait while we still have to pay for it, the We get to assault is not worth the points. I would rather not have the points added to my nids now and make them cheaper. but i can't now can I?

*edit for some reason my post sounds whiney i didn't mean it to be.*

Jwolf
18-04-2008, 01:55
And your Carnifexes can run now, too. That's a nice benefit for a Tyranid list, I think. Had I known you were complaining about anything as a Tyranid player, I would have been shocked that something as unimportant to the success of a bug list as fleet would have even registered as a point to complain about. What with area terrain changes, MC scoring changes, and improved cover saves to be expected against the insane firepower of your bugs...

Joewrightgm
18-04-2008, 02:07
But Jwolf, a Carnifex is specially evolved to be a living artillery piece, raining death from a far. Oh, wait thats Biovore.

Sorry, Tyranid players get very little sympathy from me.

Adiem
18-04-2008, 09:52
Sorry, Tyranid players get very little sympathy from me.

And we deserve very little - I cannot wait to have cc-carnifexes running across the board :evilgrin:

Joewrightgm
18-04-2008, 13:09
That's the spirit! CC Carnifex for the win. I'd rather face that than a dakka fex any day.

At least then I've got a reasonable chance of busting it in the chops with a (now only 2 attack) power fist on my Veteran.

Sildani
18-04-2008, 13:36
Let's not forget that Wraithguard, Wraithlords, and the *******' Avatar will be able to Run as well.

Good times are coming for my Eldar. Good times...

Warsmith Strader
18-04-2008, 13:49
the new run rules might have me thinking about using possessed, if the power rolls are right.

Tzeenchian possessed for the win!:evilgrin:

The Orange
18-04-2008, 18:27
So you're paying for being able to assault, not move. Excuse me if I don't cry for you.
Yay, my vespids can assault!

...(instead of shooting) :rolleyes:

Dr.Clock
18-04-2008, 21:39
tyranids: genestealers now run... surely this is of some benefit - makes scuttlers that much nastier...

In all, I think the change will make the game that much more dynamic... You will no longer be able to bank on exactly how long it will take the enemy to close with you and will also have to gauge your own maneuvers... these days your heavy units tend to stay put... but a couple turns to run up a flank for enfillading fire might be just the gambit you need open a crossfire.

In all, it will open up new ways to play every list...

Isn't the rumour that fleet units are the only ones that can run through difficult terrain as well??

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Jaradakar
18-04-2008, 21:48
If you have fleet you may assault in the assault phase after running. That's it.

For the ten millionth time.

Yup and personally I don't think that is enough. IMO, if you have Fleet you should be able to roll 2D6 and take the highest AND be able to enter Assault.

That would make it a little more balanced as current units had to pay to get the ability (and it's now being weakened by everyone gaining it (granted they can't assault).

-Jara

PS: Of course this is mostly from an Eldar stand point, it could be that Nids having 2D6 taking the highest could be too good...

graveaccomplice
18-04-2008, 23:14
big deal we get to assault. So now you are getting it for free what we had to pay for. You don't have to pay for Fleet on turn 1,2 and 3. You get it for free now.

So before we get to fleet, now all it is is just to assault? I can't see why you say you won't cry for me, I am just trying to say that it dosn't seem fair.

Explain to me why it's fair then?


We nid players still keep the option of assault, while those running lose the shot AND the assault. For us, it means they just put themselves that much closer.


What i am trying to say is you guys are getting a free trait while we still have to pay for it, the We get to assault is not worth the points. I would rather not have the points added to my nids now and make them cheaper. but i can't now can I?


Look at it this way: now our synapse can keep up. That's the biggest advantage of the rule I can think of. Not that assaulters get any faster (they don't; all of them have some equal or faster option), but that support can now keep up.

HsojVvad
18-04-2008, 23:48
I guess I am thinking in the wrong direction then. I thought they would be getting a free trait while we have to pay for it. Wouldn't it be better to decide if we wanted it so we could make our 'Nids cheaper?

Thanks for clearing it up for me, just a bit short sighted i was i guess

HsojVvad
18-04-2008, 23:55
A question just popped into my head. How does deployment work now? Before you had to be 24" away. Will it be the same in 5th edtion or will it be futher away now?

If the 'Nids move 2 and the other player moves first and runs, maybe there will be 1st turn CC now.

I do like the idea of rolling 2 dice and pick the highest one for people who have fleet.

graveaccomplice
19-04-2008, 00:50
I guess I am thinking in the wrong direction then. I thought they would be getting a free trait while we have to pay for it. Wouldn't it be better to decide if we wanted it so we could make our 'Nids cheaper?

Thanks for clearing it up for me, just a bit short sighted i was i guess


Maybe, but to be honest if you offer fleet instead of adding it most nid players will take it anyway.

HsojVvad
19-04-2008, 03:56
Maybe, but to be honest if you offer fleet instead of adding it most nid players will take it anyway.

I don't think I would (mind you I never played a game yet, so never tried it and see what would happen) Maybe I would have one or two broods with fleet, but I would leave the rest without it, so I can get those extra few points to get more gaunts. this way they could stay with the carni or with the synapse creature.

Maybe I could take fleet away and make my Gargoyles cheaper, with DS maybe I wouldn't need to give them fleet. Any if I can disgard fleet I can give thim the leaping ability, wich would make them beasts (is it leaping or anthour triat?) and them being beasts can fleet as well.

Sort of wierd why our hormies have fleet, leaping but dosn't make them beasts, since beasts can fleet as well. That would make our Hormies cheaper as well. See where I am coming from?

We have the points already built into our mini's but everyone will be getting them for free. Will it really make our Carni that much faster? The other guys could just run away as well. But then again, if they run they can't fire.

But still I rathe have our Gaunts cheaper without fleet than giving ONE model a free trait. Then again maybe I am still thinking in the wrong direction.

How about flying units, what do they have then? The run ability as well or would it be called something different but they can still use it?

Brother Armand
19-04-2008, 08:28
Run adds a dynamic to the game that was LONG overdue. 40K has suffered from a deplorable lack of 2 things: Mobility and Balanced Vehicle Survivability.

Leaving #2 aside for a moment, I'll simply say that Run is going to irrevaocably alter the meta game and it's long overdue. For those who don't know, I'm a 20+ year veterean of TT gaming. I run all but 2 40K armies and run is not fleet. Anyone who thinks it is is fooling themselves. Anyone who thinks you're paying extra for fleet when you shoudln't is also fooling themselves. You are paying for the ability to be more mobile AND assault. Given the age of the Eldar dex, I have to seriously believe that they are costed appropriately. Ork, SM & Daemons are already up to snuff & CSM & IG will get their due shortly after 5th come out.

Run is a huge boon to all armies, but it doesn't invalidate Fleet by any stretch. All it does is add a horribly absent game mechanic available in most other TT games where it is certainly due.

Dooks, get back to RN where you belong. ;)

HsojVvad
20-04-2008, 03:08
Brother Armand is that an Alien Face Hugger on the baby? That is so cool lol.

Joewrightgm
20-04-2008, 03:19
Something just occured to me:

Summoned Demons are going to have a pretty big threat reach. Say for example you summon a unit to an icon. Business as usual. However, if you don't want to double up on a particular enemy in assault, then you can have them run towards a more threatening unit.

Though you won't be able to assault, your unit will be nice and dispersed to avoid a lot of template fire, and you can get at a far away enemy a little bit quicker, obviously not on the same turn as you run.

Goq Gar
22-04-2008, 07:13
Allow me to summarize my thoughts in a few lines for all who are complaining about this rumour:

This is a Rumour.

It may not happen.

If it does happen, complaining wont stop it.

You could be spending the time you spend complaining to try and think of a way to counter it.

mchmr6677
22-04-2008, 17:13
Because of run, tyranids just got more dangerous.

Let me explain, in the past, the fleeting units would either run out of synapse range or trail models to maintain that link. The first result was very bad for gaunts as they went nuts but it also ment that raveners broke that link as well and while they rarely go nuts they lose the instant death protection. The second ment that we didn't have everything close and sometimes models would not be able to fight in the assault. The way we nid players dealt with this was to have winged warriors or tyrants to keep things all nice and solid. However, not only are wings expensive (in points and cash) but they leave the unit unable to take carapace thus leaving a very expensive easily killed model that then causes half the line to colapse. Plus after assaulting, most broods would move out of synaspe.

Now we have lots of options. A CC tyrant w/ 2-3 guards will make sure the center of the assault is well maintained and will be nearly impossible to wipe out. If that doesn't tickle your fancy, how about the now running broodlord who can keep up with the rest of the stealers. And of course we have the towering monstrosities of the CC carnies crushing across the field to assault on turn 3 (or perhaps by some chance turn 2).

The none nidzilla lists just got upgraded.

Wolflord
22-04-2008, 19:45
What will fleet do for C:Demons?

Q will a unit of Daemonett be able to deepstike on turn one. Move a d6" in shooting phase, assult in the assult phase, since they have "new" fleet rule?

Will this lead to a one turn assult with some units in the new Deamon codex?

Does it say anywhere in the "rumour" pdf´s about, you may NOT assult on the same turn you DS?

:eek:

mchmr6677
22-04-2008, 19:56
[QUOTE=Does it say anywhere in the "rumour" pdf´s about, you may NOT assult on the same turn you DS?[/QUOTE]

Yes it says no you cannot. You may run instead of shoot but not assault.

Wolflord
22-04-2008, 20:12
Yes it says no you cannot. You may run instead of shoot but not assault.

Ok, thanks... got a bit worried there. :)

tyrkish
25-04-2008, 20:49
Under the Fleet of "whateverappendage" rule in the rumored pdf it states that a unit with Fleet can assault after it has run.

Reading the Deep Strike rules it says that you can't assult after deep striking unless your "special rules" allow for it.

So it would seem that Daemonettes can deep strike 1st turn, run d6" during the shooting phase, then assault 6".


tyrkish

mchmr6677
25-04-2008, 21:09
The "special rules" to which you are reffering are codex specific, such as the lictor's ability to deep strike and assault. Fleet is not the type of special rule that they are reffering too.

Stingray_tm
25-04-2008, 21:20
You want fast Carnifexes? Well, i want them too. Then how about giving cc Carnifexes a fleet biomorph? Makes too much sense? How about giving running to EVERYONE instead? Yeah, that sounds like GW...

tyrkish
25-04-2008, 21:22
fleet is a UNIVERSAL Special Rule.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but the Tyranid codex would point it's Fleet of claw to the BRB under the Fleet entry?

Hence, the unit has a Name Variant (Fleet of Claw) of the Universal Special Rule: Fleet.

Hence, the unit, as part of it's special ruless, is allowed to assault after a run.


Again, this discussion will go on long after the new rulebook is released.
tyrkish

mchmr6677
25-04-2008, 21:28
Hmmm... we seem to be having this discusion on two different threads... :D

tyrkish
25-04-2008, 21:42
apparently. :)

I think the main thing is that GW has changed the definition of a standard vocabulary term for w40k players. Everyone that plays the game immediately understands what I mean when I refer to a unit as "fleet".

With the release of 5th edition, that is out. Run now means Fleet. Fleet now means I can Run then assault.

The Deepstrike, run, fleet Daemonettes actually make some sense considering the deployment method the new Daemon army will use (half of the army DS on first turn, remaining half on second turn). This means you take fleet units in the first turns deployment in the hopes of tying the enemy army into HtH so that your second turn slow, nasty stuff can cruise in without getting shot to much.

IF these rules do make it into the release, then i might have to finish all those deamons i have for a third army.

tyrkish

mchmr6677
26-04-2008, 02:32
Seems to heavily unbalance one army though, and at the same time delude a special ability that some units had to pay for (i.e. the lictors). 1st turn assault may be the wave of the future, but if it is then we are going have ALOT of angry Tau players.

Draconian77
26-04-2008, 04:19
"Maybe, but to be honest if you offer fleet instead of adding it most nid players will take it anyway."
__________________

There is no way I would pay for Fleet. Whats the point? Most of my units will reach combat by turn 2/3 with run or fleet so why am I paying extra points for my now invalidated rule? As Stingray put it having a Fleet biomorph on the MC's would have been a great idea in 4th ed but they missed out on it and now we have this debacle.

I doubt there is going to any Assaulting after deep striking even in 5th ed. That sort of rule violates too many aspects of wargaming.