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DarkAzrael169
16-04-2008, 04:48
According to the new book Legion, humanity is the saviour or the doom of the galaxy... Why is it that Eldar view humans as Mon'kegh or "Lesser race" when they themselves were also created by the same species the "Old Ones?" After all according to the Cabal humanity will have to sacrifice itself? Yet we would be called a "lesser race" for actually sacrificing ourselves to sace the galaxy? :wtf: I mean hell, this is coming from a race that was created to destroy the Necrons, which they could have done while they slept. But instead...

Originally Posted by lord_blackfang
We are talking about a race which was created specifically to destroy the Necrons, had about 60 million years to off the Necrons in their sleep, but instead spent the time masturbating so hard they created the god of porn ;)

I'm just a little dissapointed that this wasn't made as a comeback by John Grammaticus when the Cabal Autarch said stuff about humanity in Legion... The fluff and story just don't coincide here... Just thought I would mention this as something to chew on... Any thoughts?

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-04-2008, 05:11
Probably Grammaticus was wise enough to know that you don't try to change the beliefs of people who consider themselves that superior to you... it's absolutely a pointless and futile attempt. The Eldar are arrogant on a level that, like all their emotions, is beyond impossible for humans to realize... thus it would be wise to realize that they will be even more recalcitrant and stubborn than certain members of our race, see what I'm saying?

If you'd met my grandparents, and imagined their cantankerousity and pigheadedness multiplied by a magnitude of fifty, then you might be able to figure out how difficult it would be to get an Eldar to even engage in a conversation that might force them to, perhaps for a moment, put aside their own views and beliefs about humans and how filthy/stupid/'arrogant' :rolleyes: we are, much less convince them of a different view.

DarkAzrael169
16-04-2008, 05:15
I see what your saying... My own Grandparents can be that way also. BTW, I like your pic :D

Hellebore
16-04-2008, 06:24
Probably because GW wants it that way? Or do you think the fictional eldar race actually get a say in how they are portrayed?

Destroying the necrons while they slept is easier said than done. It's not like attacking their tomb worlds wouldn't wake them up...

EDIT: The same people that write that space marines are indestructible roxxors and that humanity is the 'chosen' race also write that the eldar are arrogant, incompetant and super advanced whilst also being super primitive at the same time.

What you should be asking is why GW has decided to portray them that way, rather than ask why a fictitious race that has no control over how it is portrayed acts the way it does...

Hellebore

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-04-2008, 06:59
I see what your saying... My own Grandparents can be that way also. BTW, I like your pic :D

Haha, yeah. It's said that opinions are like noses; everyone has them and they all smell; as people grow older, they begin to smell more, so I guess they are even more like noses in your old age, but it's a lot more convenient to use the more vulgar version.

And you can't go wrong with a little Sparrow.


Probably because GW wants it that way? Or do you think the fictional eldar race actually get a say in how they are portrayed?

Quite true, though I think that people who do honestly like the Eldar (as close as we're going to get to the real thing, you know) get a say in their developement; Pete Haines got a say in the Iron Warriors list, didn't he? ;) You have to have some enthusiasm for something to make good stuff about it, and Eldar have, I'd stab, a half-decent Codex at least.


Destroying the necrons while they slept is easier said than done. It's not like attacking their tomb worlds wouldn't wake them up...

Yeah, in the background, waking them up would have been a bad idea. As I'm sure you know; we Mon-Keigh are messing everything up by poking around on dead worlds and checking out all that ancient stuff that got the last Explorator team gauss-raped.


EDIT: The same people that write that space marines are indestructible roxxors and that humanity is the 'chosen' race also write that the eldar are arrogant, incompetant and super advanced whilst also being super primitive at the same time.

This is GW you're referencing, right, not me? ;) Or is it that one Inquisitor whose quote starts with "Perfidious Eldar! ..." I note you're on a big pro-alien stint today.

I can be down on the Eldar sometimes, but I'm also down with them occasionally, you know..


What you should be asking is why GW has decided to portray them that way, rather than ask why a fictitious race that has no control over how it is portrayed acts the way it does...

Yeah, ergo the veritable solution would be to... interesting.

I personally think it's best to look at the background and try to find reasons for their motivations and the actions they take. Hindsight is 20/20, and even for Eldar foresight can be worse than that, and there's some very obvious stuff in very conspicuous background that, for example, supports why the Eldar might not hunt down the C'tan and make a slavering warp god in their spare time.

Eulenspiegel
16-04-2008, 07:05
According to the new book Legion, humanity is the saviour or the doom of the galaxy... Why is it that Eldar view humans as Mon'kegh or "Lesser race" when they themselves were also created by the same species the "Old Ones?" After all according to the Cabal humanity will have to sacrifice itself? Yet we would be called a "lesser race" for actually sacrificing ourselves to sace the galaxy? :wtf: I mean hell, this is coming from a race that was created to destroy the Necrons, which they could have done while they slept. But instead...

The question is answered in the book, I donīt remember by whom (I think Grammaticus), but itīs almost at the end.

Essentialy it boils down to this:

- Humanity is young, but prospers, and expands very fast ("like locusts" is the phrase I think) - unlike the other races especially Eldar
- in their naivety they are very arrogant and full of themselves, they unleash Chaos in the first place

So it can be said that the Eldar are envious of humanity for being so successful of their colonisation of the galaxy, although the Eldar are so much more sophisticated and ancient.

Necronartum
16-04-2008, 07:10
I play Eldar. I love the Eldar fluff and I think that people take the Eldar insults a little too much to heart. The Eldar are always portrayed as hating mankind. There is no doubt that most Eldar do. You have to remember that:

1) They are being hunted to extinction by them.
2) Compared to the new disciplined and controlled Eldar way of life, humans are crude and barbaric. They exert little control over their fears and desires, allowing emotions to rule their actions.
3) Humanity is the main conduit for Chaos now, filling the ranks of their armies.
4) Humans are of inferior intelligence compared to the average Eldar.
5) They used to rule the galaxy, commanding stars and entire systems. They're now kicking around on Craftworlds avoiding conflicts...it would grate on you...bit of a come down.

Plus many many more. The point I am trying to make is that the Eldar have acknowledged their part to play in the creation of Slaneesh and are now attempting to seek atonement for their past sins. However, The Fall cost them dearly, and now they are too few to defeat Chaos alone. Only humanity can do this. So now, the race that they hate, and indeed is trying to exterminate them, is responsible for their survival. A little ironic. So you can imagine how they'd be a little annoyed. And I think that is a more accurate description of how they feel towards mankind. Bitter. I wouldn't have liked to be the Farseer that forsee that little revelation.

<Addresses Seer Council>
"Erm...yeah...erm...you know Mankind?"
"Vile mon-keigh. They sicken my soul."
<laughs nervouslywhilst rubbing neck> "Yeah...them...erm. You see, the thing is, the galaxy is a funny thing actually...quite...funny...yeah, erm, they're actually the saviours of the galaxy...<laughs nervously again>...surprise?"

I think they have the ability to co-exist. Or I'd like the believe they could. Albiet at arms length.

Hellebore
16-04-2008, 07:47
This is GW you're referencing, right, not me? ;) Or is it that one Inquisitor whose quote starts with "Perfidious Eldar! ..." I note you're on a big pro-alien stint today.



No, don't worry I was talking about GW.

I'm a bit of an equality nazi (how's THAT for an oxymoron:D) I suppose it's just coming to the fore now more and more because GW don't seem to be changing.

Hopefully people realise I'm not marine bashing at all (my absurdly large marine armies should be proof of that) rather inequality bashing. If marines were being neglected I would be screaming about the stupid eldar and their stupid number of craftworld codicies.

My position is that either all races get a single flexible codex, or they all get multiple army lists.

Personally I prefer multiple codicies, but then I'm not a tournament player and don't really care if people don't have perfectly balanced army lists.

Unfortunately complexity is the bane of easy balance; it's possible, but it would take a long time. Thus GW have decided simplifying things will quicken the balancing period.

Hellebore

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-04-2008, 08:28
No, don't worry I was talking about GW.

I'm a bit of an equality nazi (how's THAT for an oxymoron:D) I suppose it's just coming to the fore now more and more because GW don't seem to be changing.

That is an interesting term, haha. And it has rather been coming to the fore of my daily dose of Hellebore, if you don't mind me putting a (poorly written) poetic spin on it. ;)


Hopefully people realise I'm not marine bashing at all (my absurdly large marine armies should be proof of that) rather inequality bashing. If marines were being neglected I would be screaming about the stupid eldar and their stupid number of craftworld codicies.

Yeah, I've gathered that from your recent efforts.


My position is that either all races get a single flexible codex, or they all get multiple army lists.

Personally I prefer multiple codicies, but then I'm not a tournament player and don't really care if people don't have perfectly balanced army lists.

Unfortunately complexity is the bane of easy balance; it's possible, but it would take a long time. Thus GW have decided simplifying things will quicken the balancing period.

Ah. Well, my position would be flexible lists IF (and this is the condition for me, a fluff lover) they were able to keep up on the fluff. I.E. there was enough fluff readily available for me to reference deeply on everyone. As things stand, the SM Codex would thus be a fair bit thicker than the others, and I guess you'd have something else to complain about. ;)

This may be slightly OT though... ah, it's Warseer.

Iracundus
16-04-2008, 09:58
EDIT: The same people that write that space marines are indestructible roxxors and that humanity is the 'chosen' race also write that the eldar are arrogant, incompetant and super advanced whilst also being super primitive at the same time.

What you should be asking is why GW has decided to portray them that way, rather than ask why a fictitious race that has no control over how it is portrayed acts the way it does...

Hellebore

Because it feeds into the superhero fetish and fantasies of a large portion of the player base, whereby the protagonist human or Marine character gets around all that effete un-macho Eldar tricksiness through the simple expedient of applying brute strength. That is why when writing about Eldar, GW seems to drop the word "complex", "sophisticated", "advanced" every other sentence yet in the end comes up with rules that end up inferior and/or overcosted to what humans get. That is why you get such oddities as inventing a whole new special rule "Lance" in order to differentiate Eldar anti-tank weapons only to end up with a supposedly "advanced" Bright Lance that performs worse than a standard IG lascannon in a lot of situations. Similarly why Pulsars in Apocalypse end up being made worse than Turbo Laser Destructors.

Progena
16-04-2008, 10:03
The Eldar are among the few ancient races created by the Old Ones to combat the Necontyr menace. Man is a young race that is still evolving. It's quite natural for Eldar to feel superior to these upstart Mon-keigh (we all know that really means "monkey").

Personally, I believe that at least partly this revultion is a raction to Mankind's unpredictable and uncontrollable nature. Man is Chaotic, capable of having sudden changes of heart or acting on a whim. He is not set in his ways, he veers from one path to the other.

The Eldar tried to influence Man's evolution in its early stages on Terra, they tried to control its leaders, but were twarted at every turn. To a race that still remembers how they shaped entire planets with a thought the idea that there is something out there that they will never truly understand and thus never truly control is anathema.

Even the wisest Farseer has to navigate the strands of fate. Where as the brutal mind of an Orc provides a select few strands, the almoast equally simple mind of a Human creates endless intertwined strands of fate, each one as likely as the next.

An Eldar would never admit it, but the Human mind is as alien to them as they are to us.

Baaltharus
16-04-2008, 10:38
According to the new book Legion, humanity is the saviour or the doom of the galaxy... Why is it that Eldar view humans as Mon'kegh or "Lesser race" when they themselves were also created by the same species the "Old Ones?" After all according to the Cabal humanity will have to sacrifice itself? Yet we would be called a "lesser race" for actually sacrificing ourselves to sace the galaxy? :wtf: I mean hell, this is coming from a race that was created to destroy the Necrons, which they could have done while they slept. But instead...

Originally Posted by lord_blackfang
We are talking about a race which was created specifically to destroy the Necrons, had about 60 million years to off the Necrons in their sleep, but instead spent the time masturbating so hard they created the god of porn ;)

I'm just a little dissapointed that this wasn't made as a comeback by John Grammaticus when the Cabal Autarch said stuff about humanity in Legion... The fluff and story just don't coincide here... Just thought I would mention this as something to chew on... Any thoughts?

While the Autarch in the book certainly represents the status quo of the Eldar in terms of their outlook on humanity, he does not represent the Eldar in their beliefs of what the future holds of the galaxy and humanity.

For instance, the Cabal believes (or chooses to show) there are two possible futures. This is incorrect, as anyone who knows anything about farseeing according to the existing background knows that their are hundreds, even millions of possible futures brought about by both large and small events.

Furthermore the vast majority (if not all) the Eldar fight against the traitor legions during the Heresy. Furthermore the beliefs of the Cabal are conflicting with those of the greatest Eldar Seers for ultimately Chaos cannot win as it will be finally defeated at the Rhana Dandra.

I think the belief systems presented shown in legion are more of a collective view of the Cabal than simply of the Eldar Autarch. The Eldar no doubt despise humanity but also recognise them as both a very significant force and probably the best chance of defeating chaos (in conjuction with their oh so mighty selfs).

The final conclusion which I drew from Legion in terms of what the Cabal was after was thus: To set in motion a course of events which would both ultimately defeat Chaos and see humanity wiped out (as humanity will probably destroy the collective alien races in the future) thus preserving themselves. And for some reason the Alpha Legion went along with it...despite the Cabal having no proof of coming events (#shakes head#).

elvinltl
16-04-2008, 12:24
Eldars could be thinking...

"Simpletons Mon-Keighs! For the title <<Saviour of the Galaxy>>, they send billions and zillions of their own brothers and sisters to their doom against the Yngir. Afterall, we were created to defeat the Yngir but there are various way of doing so.

For example masterbating all day long and leave the Mon-Keigh to lick up the mess left behind by us. :D Not to mention, those Mon-Keigh would probably go on to crush the Yngir killing 2 birds with a stone.

At the end, against Slannesh and Yngir, humanity will be left broken and shattered."

Templar-Sun
16-04-2008, 13:30
**SPOILER ALERT**






Frankly, I find it hard to believe that a few vile xenos show up and reveal a few "visions" of the future and the Alpha legion immediately go traitor and start wasting people. A better twist would have shown the Lord General(in all his arrogance and pride) attacking the Alpha legion and them inadvertantly branded traitors. I know I'm rippin on our Primarch of words(Abnett) but I think he missed the mark on this one. He spends the entire book describing how the AL operate, control and manipulate. Then allows them to go traitor over some silliness. However, I liked very much that the AL decide to waste humanity in order to save the Emperor. That was hilarious and totally believable...


Templar-Sun

Necronartum
16-04-2008, 13:40
The book was my favourite. I can only assume that the AL had prior knowledge of the Acuity and that they knew the visions could not be false. Plus Alpharius got the other people to join him to allow for deception. I admit, it seemed a little too much, but hey. A good book. Now the question is, was the whole Cabal thing the work of Chaos, or genuine?

Baaltharus
16-04-2008, 13:57
**SPOILER ALERT**






Frankly, I find it hard to believe that a few vile xenos show up and reveal a few "visions" of the future and the Alpha legion immediately go traitor and start wasting people. A better twist would have shown the Lord General(in all his arrogance and pride) attacking the Alpha legion and them inadvertantly branded traitors. I know I'm rippin on our Primarch of words(Abnett) but I think he missed the mark on this one. He spends the entire book describing how the AL operate, control and manipulate. Then allows them to go traitor over some silliness. However, I liked very much that the AL decide to waste humanity in order to save the Emperor. That was hilarious and totally believable...


Templar-Sun

I largely agree with you, the book overall was good, the end was not. I can't see the Alpha Legion having any previous knowledge of the Acuity as they were very dubious about it initially. As well as this the Acuity has every chance of being wrong/false. The xenos may not lie/be able to lie but they can certainly be wrong. The fact they they presented only two futures means one of three things.

1) They showed only two of many futures to set on course the events they considered most favourable.

2) They had managed to see only two futures with their limited farseeing.

3) The Cabal are pretty much infallable and out of millions of possible fates managed to get the only two possibilities of the Heresy. Further more the most accurate and powerful Farseer in Eldar history who has seen pretty much every major pitfall the galaxy and the Warp has to offer and redirected them or brought them to an acceptable conclusion is ultimately wrong and theres no hope for anyone anywhere (somehow I think this one is unlikely).

Gue'la Koholic
16-04-2008, 15:56
I find it funny that in a thread about Eldar arrogance, someone would mention the infallibility of Eldrad, as if he knows everything. The Cabal itself was formed from more then simply the Eldar. It was made up of races from all across the universe, some of which seemed to be older then the Eldar themselves. But it's somehow inconceivable that these guys were right, while Eldrad, who wasn't very old at the time of the Heresy, is wrong? C'mon.

The real arrogance in the Eldar way of thinking is that we all assume that the Eldar would always be right. Personally, it's a race that was created to do one simple thing, hasn't managed to do that yet, but did manage to make everything a whole lot worse. Good job Eldar!

Baaltharus
16-04-2008, 19:11
Who said anything about Eldrad being infallible?

Rockerfella
16-04-2008, 20:58
Well, they did a pretty good job of ruling over the galaxy, sharing it with other aces in an era of unprecedented peace for millions of years.

Humanity has been at it for ten thousand years, and has practically torn the galaxy apart.

Its all relative.

In this respect, the lowest common denominator here, is humanity. Kinda like that kid who just can't get on with anyone in the group. Everyone gets along with each other fine, but whenever he's around, there's always trouble.

The Eldar fell, but it took them over 60'000'000 to do it. Give em a break.

Humanity has been at it for a tiny fraction of that time, and is already tearing itself apart at the seams. Lets see where the Imperium is in... oooh, lets be fair and give em 10'000'000 years.

Eldrad wasn't infallible, and never claimed anything such. Farseers know better than anyone the limitations of farsight and prescience. They deal with its inncuracies on a day to day basis. To be fair, they're probably the ultimate authority on the subject in 40k terms.
They just do their best with what they have. If a Farseer sees 20'000 possible futures, he has to try to allter the course or direction of reality in a way that results in the most beneficial end for his people. Thats where the craft and skill really lies, for me.

If you read farseer, it gives you some indication of how many millions of possibilit branches appear from just one movement of something as simple as someones arm. Its crazy, and totally mind boggling.

Anyways....

Ranting.

Need a beer.

The_Outsider
16-04-2008, 21:32
We need maggots to help the world keep sinning (figure of speech) and for life to continue - doesn't mean we view maggots as equal now does it?

Eldar look down upon humanity as a race that blindly wallowed out into the darkness and took what was left of the eldar empire after its implosion.

They need humanity to keep the bigger fish in check (namely chaos - but to a considerably lesser degree the necrons) as these days eldar are like a school bully. Big and hard when they have someone to hide behind but when thats gone they are really just scared little children hiding from the monsters they conjured up.

Rockerfella
16-04-2008, 22:09
Interesting to note though (and I KNOW i've referenced this book already on this thread) but in Farseer Auric sees several possible futures where the Imperium declares war on Ulthwe. In many futures, the Imperium destroys the craftworld totally, then rolling onto destroy the race entirely. In other futures, the Eldar respond with their 'ancient apocolyptic secret weapons of doom' and lay waste to EVERYTHING.

So, they have the clout, if you like... unlike the school bully, who will ultimately go cry to mummy when you slap him in the face and he knows he can't win.

Its such a great book. Have any of you guys read William Kings Farseer? If not, try ot get a copy. Its a tad slim but reveals much about the Eldar and their perceptions of humanity as a whole. They don't all see humanity as barbaric 'mon-keigh' moronic primates as we're led to believe.

Great read.

Baaltharus
16-04-2008, 22:37
I've read Farseer, I thought as a book it was pretty poor. I read it years ago but I didn't find it particularly memorable in any particular way. Does this say more about me or the book? Who knows...

Rockerfella
16-04-2008, 22:58
I've read Farseer, I thought as a book it was pretty poor. I read it years ago but I didn't find it particularly memorable in any particular way. Does this say more about me or the book? Who knows...


All it says good sir, is that you didn't like the book, and I did. ;) It says little about the reader really, apart from what we take and indeed want to find in a book.

Personally, I really enjoyed it.

I've just finished Shadowpoint. I loved the Avatar moments (that guy rules) bt as a whole, was rather dissapointed with it. I thought Farseer was a better book.

But thats just me!

The best thing about this hobby is that its so diverse. Would eb boring if we all loved the same books, races etc! :)

DarkAzrael169
17-04-2008, 00:09
Thanks for the idea... Maybe I'll pick up the book :)

Lorieth
17-04-2008, 15:50
Why is it that Eldar view humans as Mon'kegh or "Lesser race" when they themselves were also created by the same species the "Old Ones?"

I didn't think humanity was supposed to be the work of the Old Ones; or did I miss something?


After all according to the Cabal humanity will have to sacrifice itself? Yet we would be called a "lesser race" for actually sacrificing ourselves to sace the galaxy?

I don't see any contradiction there. If I'm attacked, and my pet dog leaps up and kills my assailant, but gets killed in the process, then of course I'd think very highly of my noble, loyal, courageous dog - but I would still think of him as a lesser species. Of course I'd never say that to a dog, whereas an Eldar might... ;)

Iracundus
18-04-2008, 00:20
Part of the reason with the Eldar taking just about every race as "lesser race" might be related to their long natural lifespan. The Eldar Codex says the average Eldar lifespan is about 1000 years. The natural human lifespan in 40K is likely not even 100, and only a select minority of the powerful get to have their lifespans extended to the multiple century mark. Even so they age biologically faster than an Eldar, meaning you end up with elderly decrepit humans at the multiple century mark while the Eldar is still in effectively middle age and still healthy and active.

I would not rule out Eldar Rangers or other Outcasts with prolonged exposure to humanity developing some sort of tolerance or even fondness perhaps for individual humans. However I think that would have its limits as any form of interpersonal relationship would have that lifespan barrier. A human would age incredibly quickly in Eldar eyes so any emotional attachment formed by an Eldar would be fleeting, in much the same way that there are certain limits to the amount of attachment formed with short lived animals and pets on Earth.

DarkAzrael169
18-04-2008, 03:51
I never thought of it that way

Firaxin
18-04-2008, 04:22
I think the average human lifespan is more like 200 years... (provided he/she doesn't live in some inhospitable climate).

kikkoman
18-04-2008, 15:23
Part of the reason with the Eldar taking just about every race as "lesser race" might be related to

Isn't this true of all races though? The Imperium despises the Eldar as a lesser race. Orks see everyone not green as un-orky, thus inferior.
I figure the Eldar get singled out for their arrogance 'cause they brush their teeth and use shampoo regularly. An ork or grimy human looking down at you has no weight, a spaaaace elf with psychoshuriken guns makes you uncomfortable in the "goblins 2:1" sort of way.



I would not rule out Eldar Rangers or other Outcasts with prolonged exposure to humanity developing some sort of tolerance or even fondness perhaps for individual humans.

hahah, I just imagined the Jane Goodall of Eldar, living amongst the primates.


in much the same way that there are certain limits to the amount of attachment formed with short lived animals and pets on Earth.

maybe a fondness for a lineage of humans then? Say some outcast grew close to a human, he travels away and returns later to find her aged, but with children of her own. Children have children, children have children, the Eldar can witness traits of the one he knew pass on in her descendants. I saw a movie with an ending sorta like that. The long lived inhuman guy shows up to attend the funeral of a person who was young for most of the story.


Anyways, the 2ed Codex is the height of Eldar coolness, Rogue Trader as the prototype for underlying themes, 3rd ed as rather shoddy, 4ed returns to some 2ed greatness.

That three part story in 2ed with the Farseer, Jetbiker, and Guardian's viewpoints being my favorite.

The novels I've never read, and don't think they're too important. Codex stories seem closer to the intent of the game creators.

Carlos
18-04-2008, 15:55
The eldar were genetically engineered by the old ones as the ultimate psychic race vs the ctan, are the only race left in the galaxy that remembers the old ones at all outside of the ctan and have the best technology outside of the necrons.

Mankind was not created by the old ones, but instead was allowed to evolve unchecked and wildly. Their/our technology is dangerous, our minds open to abuse by chaos and our wars genocidal.

As far as the eldar are concerned we are a skidmark on the underpants of the galaxy and rightly so.

leo_neil316
18-04-2008, 17:05
Carlos the eldar were so open to chaos they started doing something that was going to create a new chaos god, found out what was going to happen, and the vast majority of them kept on doing it anyway.

The eldar were created to be soliders against the c'tan, just like the vast majority of races. The orks and jokero both still remember the old ones, and both were also created to fight the necrons.

Humans were created to be funny things that fell out trees.

60 million years later we're the most powerful single force in the galaxy. The eldar might have the most -refined- tech but the orks and imperium learnt long ago that you don't need to have fancy guns to kill things. Orky tech is atleast as advanced as eldar stuff when it wants to be, and while a lasgun is simple compared to a lasblaster there are areas where imperial technology works better, or atleast did before they forgot how it all worked.

I've never heard of an eldar artifical inteligence for example, or genetic engineering, very likely a case of them never having seen a need for them due to other things at their disposal (spirit stones) or their far to hard coded DNA (eldar havn't evolved at all in 60 million years after all).

Emperor's Grace
18-04-2008, 19:13
Part of the reason with the Eldar taking just about every race as "lesser race" might be related to their long natural lifespan.

<edit>

I would not rule out Eldar Rangers or other Outcasts with prolonged exposure to humanity developing some sort of tolerance or even fondness perhaps for individual humans. However I think that would have its limits as any form of interpersonal relationship would have that lifespan barrier.

Ever seen "Jane and the Dragon" (kids CGI animated series)?

The show has just such a relationship. In fact, the dragon is fond of calling any humans that are not it's personal friend "short-lives" even if he knows their proper name and he often finds their "short-life" POV quite frustrating.

GodofWarTx
18-04-2008, 23:06
Its funny, from a description in the book of one of the members of the cabal, i would say the C'tan are members of it and the eldar autarch seems non-fussed about it.

Brother Siccarius
18-04-2008, 23:26
The energy being is different from a C'tan, mainly in that it's a cloud of energized dust, the C'tan are a sun draining energy being that wasn't even detectable until the Necrons specifically went looking for it.

Anyone else had the idea that maybe the Cabal wasn't telling the Alpha Legion everything, or vise versa? Both were keen on keeping secrets, it's entirely possible that neither was letting on the entire truth of the matter.

Iracundus
19-04-2008, 00:12
That three part story in 2ed with the Farseer, Jetbiker, and Guardian's viewpoints being my favorite.


It's not 3 parts. It is 7 parts actually and there are details that give away the fact it is about Iyanden. The 1st part in chronological order occurs in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis, with the Farseer (Kelmon I believe) waking with a nightmare and then seeing the threat of an impending conflict with Slaaneshi cultists and a Keeper of Secrets. Kelmon is described in the Doom of the Eldar game as the senior Farseer of Iyanden. Even if Kelmon were a common name, there is another more telling detail. The Craftworld is described as Light in the Darkness, which is a variation of Iyanden's full meaning of Light in the Infinite Darkness and its symbol of the Shrine of Asuryan.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th parts occur in the 2nd ed. Epic supplement for the Eldar. In it, the main characters are Warlock Karhedron and Farseer Kelmon. The 2nd part details the massing of Eldar forces from the POV of Karhedron, culminating with the arrival of the Avatar. The 3rd part is from the point of view of Farseer Kelmon in his command tent as he moves the runes representing the units, and views the flow of the battle as it occurs. Once again the detail is present of how the Craftworld is referred to as Light in the Infinite Darkness, ie Iyanden. This is the battle where a Keeper of Secrets obliterates a squad of Banshees and eats one of the soulstones, causing great distress among the Eldar. The Avatar leads a countercharge and eventually prevails over the KoS and breaks the latter's back. The human renegades and cultists fall back in disarray and the Eldar slaughter them. The 4th part is after the battle is over, from the POV of Karhedron, as he views the field of glowing soulstones among the fallen of the battlefield. It details his thoughts on the Eldar and their struggles, and the temptation of being in their warrior selves so they do not have to deal with the grief or sensations of loss. In the end, he does unclasp his Warlock helmet and take it off, shedding his warrior persona, and after he does so he begins to weep for the dead.

Parts 5-7 are in 2nd ed. Eldar Codex. One details the POV of a Scorpion Exarch. Of note is the fact he started sliding down to becoming an Exarch after witnessing the devouring of the Banshee's soulstone in that previous battle. This links the forces in the stories of the Eldar Codex to those previously in the Epic supplement, showing all of them to be about the same Craftworld (Iyanden), and therefore also that the introspective Karhedron in the Eldar Codex is also likely the same individual as the Karhedron of the Epic stories.

Norsehawk
19-04-2008, 03:50
Eldar, having such long life spans means that they exist for the long term, a good example would be like a tree growing. Humanity on the other hand is a very short lived race, Humanity breeds and spreads very fast. Their lives are like a flame, short lived, burns extremely hot, and has the potential to destroy everything in its path. Since humans are so short lived, they are open to the allure of chaos as well. Give a human a possibility to stave off their death not too far in the future and they are listening to you.

Kal Taron
19-04-2008, 16:20
I saw a movie with an ending sorta like that. The long lived inhuman guy shows up to attend the funeral of a person who was young for most of the story.


You wouldn't by chance be talking about Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust?

Templar Ben
19-04-2008, 17:47
According to the new book Legion, humanity is the saviour or the doom of the galaxy... Why is it that Eldar view humans as Mon'kegh or "Lesser race" when they themselves were also created by the same species the "Old Ones?" After all according to the Cabal humanity will have to sacrifice itself? Yet we would be called a "lesser race" for actually sacrificing ourselves to sace the galaxy? :wtf: I mean hell, this is coming from a race that was created to destroy the Necrons, which they could have done while they slept. But instead...

Just wanted to point out that I know a lot of people that think that an "Old One" named God created humans and dogs but still thinks that humans are much more advanced.


Eldar, having such long life spans means that they exist for the long term, a good example would be like a tree growing. Humanity on the other hand is a very short lived race, Humanity breeds and spreads very fast. Their lives are like a flame, short lived, burns extremely hot, and has the potential to destroy everything in its path. Since humans are so short lived, they are open to the allure of chaos as well. Give a human a possibility to stave off their death not too far in the future and they are listening to you.

So humans are the replicants of BladeRunner. :)

Brother Siccarius
20-04-2008, 06:54
Weren't we poo flinging, hairy primates at the time of the War of Heaven? Humans just don't seem to fit the profile for the Old Ones created races (Most of all due to hunting down and near exterminating several of them).

Perhaps the Chaos Gods fought the Heresy with the idea of losing it? Perhaps the Cabal lied? Perhaps the Legion lied? There's so many secrets intertwined with secrets, and not once are we let into the heads of an Alpha Legionaire (or their POV), so we have no idea of the truth of what we saw, just like everything to do with the Legion.

We are Legion! or are I?

Templar-Sun
20-04-2008, 11:28
I think Mr. Anderson in Matrix had it spot on, humans are a virus... Nevertheless the Emperor wants to save them so we Templars do as he wishes...


Templar-Sun

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 12:36
Wasn't that Smith's line? Mr. Anderson was his description of Neo.

Templar Ben
20-04-2008, 13:07
Wasn't that Smith's line? Mr. Anderson was his description of Neo.

Thomas A. Anderson was Neo's name.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 18:18
Well yeah... I was referring more to the way Agent Smith said 'Mr. Anderson...'

You know, that drawling, condescending 'Mis-ter An-derson' with that world-hating scowl we know and love.

Hellebore
21-04-2008, 06:58
I think Mr. Anderson in Matrix had it spot on, humans are a virus... Nevertheless the Emperor wants to save them so we Templars do as he wishes...


Templar-Sun

I always hated that line.

A virus is defined as:


a sub-microscopic infectious agent that is unable to grow or reproduce outside a host cell. Each viral particle, or virion, consists of genetic material, DNA or RNA, within a protective protein coat called a capsid. The capsid shape varies from simple helical and icosahedral (polyhedral or near-spherical) forms, to more complex structures with tails or an envelope. Viruses infect cellular life forms and are grouped into animal, plant and bacterial types, according to the type of host infected.

Last time I checked none of that applied to humans.

It can't even be claimed that humans have virus-like behaviour, because ALL organisms on this planet act exactly the same way.

Ever wonder what a plague of locusts, or rabbits is? It's a species breeding faster than the environment can sustain it and moving to another place for more food.

Islands off Britain with introduced goats are a perfect example - no predators means their population eventually reaches such a level that they crash as they starve from lack of food. Then the survivors start breeding and do the whole thing all over again.

The only difference is that human can consciously choose NOT to do these things.

Apart from that all Smith would have been able to say is:

"Humans are..an....organism[spits]"
:rolleyes:

Viruses are incapable of spreading without hosts, so if their host dies, they can't do the evil things Agent Smith ascribes to them. He also neglects to mention virus attenuation whereby viruses evolve to be less deadly in order to continue living (a virus that kills its host before it can be past on will go extinct, so any virus that takes longer to kill its host will subsequently increase in the population until the virus no longer kills its host).

Ummm. where were we again?:confused:

Hellebore

Templar-Sun
21-04-2008, 10:44
Lol, yeah you right it was smith. Guess I gotta break those movies out again and watch... Aw shucks. Smith was using it as a metaphor and I think its a great line. All populations of species eventually equalize. If they don't they become extinct. The problem with humans is we have learned to directly combat the various natural equalizing pressures on the population faster than evolution. Famine, drought, disease... etc. The evolutionary way is through genetic mutation and adaptation.

Sad thing is we are killing our host(earth).

Ummm, I don't know... Something about Eldar arrogance.


Templar-Sun

DarkAzrael169
22-04-2008, 02:05
(Shakes head) Wow... been away for a few days and look what happened... The subject WAS Eldar Arrogance.. But, I always like the "Mr. Anderson" line :)

Hellebore
22-04-2008, 02:16
Lol, yeah you right it was smith. Guess I gotta break those movies out again and watch... Aw shucks. Smith was using it as a metaphor and I think its a great line. All populations of species eventually equalize. If they don't they become extinct. The problem with humans is we have learned to directly combat the various natural equalizing pressures on the population faster than evolution. Famine, drought, disease... etc. The evolutionary way is through genetic mutation and adaptation.

Sad thing is we are killing our host(earth).

Ummm, I don't know... Something about Eldar arrogance.


Templar-Sun

I've no problem with metaphors, when they're accurate. Smith's line was so pathetic though that I couldn't get past it.

He says 'you aren't mammals, you are a virus' (paraphrased).

His metaphor was supposed to make humans out to be this big bad thing, by comparing them to the 'big bad virus', but all he did was compare them to ALL life, which loses the impetus a bit.

Hellebore

jma037
22-04-2008, 03:02
Sad thing is we are killing our host(earth).


Human arrogance at it's best! Don't worry about mother earth. Mother earth will survive. Humanity is a different matter. People often confuse the fact that environmentalist's are not nature lovers. They are human lovers. Mother earth has survived a great number of catastrophies such as astroid strikes and ice ages. We are so arrogant that we think we can kill a planet. I say that the earth will be green again in say a few billion years after even a full scale nuclear exchange. If not, well mother earth don't really care. does she? She's a rock...:D

Templar-Sun
22-04-2008, 19:23
*Drops gloves* All right buddy, you quit rippin on The Matrix!! :P


Templar-Sun