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Puffin Magician
14-10-2005, 00:45
I think that most players who were around in 2nd Edition loved the variation of warhead types we could choose from way back then. I know I sure did, and I wish the races weren't restricted to all sharing the Krak and Frag Missile [Eldar get the Plasma Missile, but that's a moot point].

Several years ago other grenades started to appear; Eldar had Haywire Grenades, Scouts could have Smoke Grenades, and now the Space Marine Librarian has the psychic equivalent to a Vortex Grenade. So why not take the last baby step and make a complete transition of the Grenade Types?

• Anti-Plant³ Grenades: You won't find much terrain that'll fit under the small template... and the grenade isn't powerful enough to warrant the Ordnance template, so it just doesn't fit. Unless... [see below]
• Blind Grenades: Covered in 40k already?
• Choke Grenades: sX ap5; works just before close combat ; charging squad throws the Choke's, wounded enemy models strike at Initiative 1 for that Assault Phase [as they're choking!]. The Ap5 is to symbolize the 2nd Edition concept of Marines & Aspect Warriors being atmospherically isolated and immune to chemical attacks.
• Frag Grenades: Covered in 40k already.
• Hallucinogen Grenades: The unofficial Harlequin Codex has it I think, but it doesn't portray their effects properly [something a "won the combat?" result]. Some sort of Leadership-based attack, Pinning? Break Test? Something more complicated [with it's own table? :)]
• Krak Grenades: Covered in 40k already.
• Meltabombs: Covered in 40k already.
• Photo Plash Grenades: I belive the 2nd Edition Noise Marines could take this weapon, but it seems the Tau have knicked the name. Bugger.
• Plasma Grenades: Now this would be a rare one. Maybe 0-1 for HQ or a Relic/Artifact/whatever. Single attack, 6" s7 ap2 Assault 1 Blast?
• Radiation Grenades: Another rather complicated bastard. Maybe [i]too complicated.
• Scare Grenades: Possibly limited use with lots of high-Ld armies and Fearless units out there, but a single 6"-ranged attack that causes a Morale Test for the attacked squad?
• Smoke Grenades: Covered in 40k already; unit counts as having 5+ cover for 1 turn.
• Tanglefoot Grenades: Covered in the Harlequin list, although I like this one. Bonuses for consolidation/chasing down squads.

The Tau are getting a good and complex set of rules for a single missile type; their infamous Seekers. I'm not one of the people who think every army needs an equivalent of some other army's good equipment, but I do agree with variety and options, and 40k seems to get more complicated by the month, so why not some warhead options for Imperial Missile Launchers [Eldar would get an aptly-named equivalent, or something of a similar function?]?

• Krak: Covered in 40k already.
• Frag: Covered in 40k already.
• Melta: Pricy, probably 0-1, 48" s8 ap1 8+2d6AP
• Plasma: Rare and/or expensive; 48" s7 ap2 Heavy 1 Blast
• Blind: Some sort of blind-related Pinning Test? Similar to the Choke Grenades; typically heavily armoured troops have optical protection [Space Marines, Aspect Warriors] but although Aspect Warriors have 4+ saves, they have much better integrated systems such as this that other 4+ armies don't - namely Storm Troopers. So, ap4 and "wounded" units take a Test [type?]?
• Anti-Plant³: 48" s- ap- Heavy 1 Large Blast; Roll to hit as normal. If any plant/vegetation/wooded terrain [don't get too picky; if it's a plant, it counts!] fits under the Ordnance Template, remove it from play. If the AP Grenade were to use the Ordnance Template, I'd have to say that the AP Missile would remove an entire piece of wooded terrain, regardless of size [although to be reasonable 1'×1' would be the maximum].

Simplification of the latest Editions aside, I'd welcome a return of these types. They could either be made rare [restricted to 0-1 unit, 0-1 Elites for Grenades and 0-1 Heavy Weapon squad for the missiles], or crazy-expensive so taking a lot of them wouldn't be practical.

Basically it's an adaptation of what Forge World did with Imperial Guard Vehicle ammunition types. They are great unique weapons that aren't particularly powerful, only different, and provide another facet of the game to play around with. Illum and Smoke Shells for the extreme-tactical roles employed by the Griffon.

What about taking the Forge World Illumination Shell idea and give it to Mortar and Missile Launcher units?

I suppose we could also wedge in other weapons from 2nd Edition that have been skipped over in order to simplify the game. Web pistols, 2 firing modes for Plasma Cannons, Rapier Lasers... they certainly wouldn't be hard to update; also post your rules ideas for the weapons too [just don't get into saying IG platoons should have access to Conversion Beamers and Thudd Guns].

A lot of rambling I know, but I'm in a hurry to get to sleep and I have a lot to say on the matter. Basically it boils down to this: what weapons do you wish to see a return from their 2nd Edition graves? What would they be like? Who would get them? I've been tinkering with these rules for a while but haven't really discussed it so there's been no feedback. I want to know what other people think, hence the thread.

³For the love of god, don't bring up the Orks and their ridiculous "plantlife" fluff! :p

Discuss!

Crux
14-10-2005, 01:03
Plasma grenades are included in 4th ed. 40k as well - Eldar uses them, negates the effect of cover.

Helicon_One
15-10-2005, 22:29
If you're cool with the book-keeping, you could have anti-plant reduce the level of cover save provided by organic terrain by 1 from that point onward - eg if an area of woods usually grants a 5+ save, an anti-plant hit would make it 6+ from that point onwards.

Hmm, actually, that would make it pretty nastily effective, so how about this: if a hit is scored with an antiplant missile, it reduces the level of cover save provided by any organic terrain, if the firer must can roll a score equivalent to the cover save which is granted by the terrain - eg, if shooting into a 5+ cover save wood, the anti-plant missile would need to roll a 5+ to "wound", and a successful "wound" would reduce the wood to only providing a 6+ cover save. Any subsequent hit from anti-plant weaponry would need a 6+ to "wound" but would nullify the cover save entirely. This represents that dense cover would be affected more by the anti-plant (as there's more organic material present to be killed off) than more sparse pieces of terrain.

Tim

Puffin Magician
15-10-2005, 23:55
Unfortunately I don't have the rules for the Anti-Plant warhead [I knew I should've kept that book], only the weapons reference card. Didn't remember exactly what it did, but I wish it wasn't that.

Reducing the effectiveness of the terrain's cover would mean another thing to keep track of the entire game, which is one of the headaches from 2nd Edition I'd like to avoid. I don't understand why you need to roll to "wound" since the chemicals in the warhead are splattered around as long as the missile hits the target. Removing the entire piece of terrain is a quick action, and it's more in line with the rules for destroying Fortifications.

Is your suggestion only based on the old rules? What about making it from the ground up?


Plasma grenades are included in 4th ed.
You're right I forgot about them... I meant Imperial Plasma Grenades, though.

Helicon_One
16-10-2005, 22:26
The old style anti-plant would destroy all vegetation underneath the template, effectively taking a 2" 'bite' out of your terrain piece. Obviously this is fairly impractical for people who model woods on bases (which, as area terrain, they should be really), unless you want to start ripping bits out of your terrain pieces. I was thinking that anti-plant would be more likely to thin out a wood, rather than utterly destroy one part of it, and completely removing a wood on a single hit is potentially way too powerful an effect.

Yeah, I know my version isn't perfect, but I'm more inclined to think that anti-plant should be consigned to background, really.

Tim

marv335
16-10-2005, 23:11
i'd make the missile variants available to heavy weapon squads only. e.g. IG heavy SM devastators, dark reapers etc.
a devastator squad armed with melta missiles would rule the battlefield.
s8 ap1 2d6 armour pen. got to be worth 10-15pts per model.

Inquisitor Maul
16-10-2005, 23:35
You forgot the best. Virus and Vortex grenades :D :p

Puffin Magician
17-10-2005, 10:50
Yeah, I know my version isn't perfect...
Yours makes more sense and is more balanced than what I suggested, the only problem is it's complication. Maybe a compromise; Anti-Plant Missile hits, automatically reduces the cover benefit by -1, and can be further reduced by additional warheads?


a devastator squad armed with melta missiles would rule the battlefield.

I think we all realize the power of 48" Meltaguns, hence the 0-1 restriction. And not 0-1 unit, 0-1 model.


You forgot the best. Virus and Vortex grenades.
I don't remember what Virus does, but it'd probably work like Choke. Vortex Grenades could just use tweaked rules from the Vortex of Doom psychic power.

Zark the Damned
17-10-2005, 11:57
Virus Grenade pretty much reads: wipe out target Ork army. It was very overpwered vs armies with no rebreathers, and did practically nothing vs enclosed troops. Since all infantry other than Orks were assumed to have rebreathers (Imp Guard, Eldar etc.) and the Virus didn't work on Tyranids, this meant it was very swingy.

Even then, Orks had the Vaccine squig which pretty much nullified the Virus grenade.

Brother Othorio
17-10-2005, 14:57
regarding Anti-Plant, dont forget that Orks are now a form of fungus..



• Photo Flash Grenades: I belive the 2nd Edition Noise Marines could take this weapon, but it seems the Tau have knicked the name. Bugger. i was under the impression that it wasnt just the name but that they Tau Photon Grenades were exactly the same as Imperial Photon Flash Grenades

Zark the Damned
17-10-2005, 15:06
regarding Anti-Plant, dont forget that Orks are now a form of fungus..
BEEP! INCORRECT!

Orks are NOT a type of Fungus. They have a symbiotic relationship with it. Weedkiller has no effect on the greenies.

IIRC in the game AntiPlant just removed plant-based scenery from the game... quick deforestation.

Puffin Magician
18-10-2005, 00:21
regarding Anti-Plant,

• Anti-Plant³:
...
³For the love of god, don't bring up the Orks and their ridiculous "plantlife" fluff!


i was under the impression that it wasnt just the name but that they Tau Photon Grenades were exactly the same as Imperial Photon Flash Grenades
I just realized now that Army Builder 2.2 has the Grenade rules in the Wargear section... checked up on PFGs and they cause a 1.5" template that results in a d6 on the Photon Flash Chart [which I do not have access to]. I assume it's just a scale of "mild headache" to "eyes are now useless" or something.


Virus Grenade... It was very overpwered vs armies with no rebreathers, and did practically nothing vs enclosed troops...
What about taking the rules from the Dark Eldar Stinger? It's a poison weapon that blows people up, which is what the Virus did, no? I even think the "wound on a 2+ w/ armour saves allowed" is appropriate since a defensive breathing apparatus would only be as protective as the armour [Marines have lots, Aspects & Storm Troopers have less, Orks have none]; so Armour Saves are a good representation.

Brother Othorio
19-10-2005, 01:16
they grow from spores, sure sounds like fungus to me

the photon chart only had 3 results:
no effect
dazzled (WS & BS reduced to 1)
blinded (as dazzled + random movement)

Blind Grenades are already covered in the Eldar list, a squad can use them i to gain a cover save (but loses the ability to shoot or assault that turn)

the Tau Pulse Carbine is a combi-weapon, specifically a plasma pulse gun and a photon grenade launcher, wounds are down to the former, the pinning test due to the latter, hand-held grenades should use the Tau photon grenade rules whilst grenade & missile launcher versions should cause a pinning test, maybe treat it as a frag missile that causes pinning? (kills in this case representing soldiers being blinded and having to be left behind ~ that wouldnt work in 2e but could mesh with 3.x's level of detail)

Zark the Damned
19-10-2005, 09:30
they grow from spores, sure sounds like fungus to me
You need to read the background.

Yes, they release spores from which fungus grows. The Fungus then produces an underground 'womb' in which the Orkoid grows, akin to a Human in its Mother.

Orks are not themselve a type of Fungus. They have a symbiotic relationship with the stuff.

As for the Photon Chart, there were hefty modifiers for eye protection. Meaning basically that it affected Orks, since all ofhter races at the time were assumed to have goggles/autosenes/bionics/whatever. (even Nids, they had automaticly closing black inner eyelids or something0.