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ml2sjw
16-04-2008, 11:12
Hi all,

After a long time imposed away from the hobby whilst training i find myself with enough time to look at things again, anyway a new copy of codex chaos was duely purchased and....

wow ok where did everything go!

Having got over my inital shock its time to take stock, havinging realised that my two large squads of harpies and a squad of blood letters are not going to see that much use, all my carefully wokred out aspiring champion killing machines are no more, no more six man squads etc etc

Now my way of collecting is to work out a 1500 point take all comers list paint it up and then put it in a box so that if i get time for a game i simply have to grab it and unpack it.

Anyway having collected chaos since before the first codex i have a largeish pool of marines to draw from, although they are all "undivided" marines, so guys to save me some digging around and much wailing and gnashing of teeth what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-04-2008, 11:22
In before new Codex hate.

Well... to answer your question, I'll need an idea of what you like playing with. The new Codex allows for some variation of style (to say the least), so are there any particular Gods you prefer to fight under the banner of, any playstyles you prefer...........? Anything?

njfed
16-04-2008, 11:31
Chaos is now a well balanced army with many options. It features the best troop options in the game. It supports many different play styles. It has two of the most powerful HQ options in the game, the greater daemon being an increadable value. The modification to the chosen has improved the elite choice as well. Thanks to the Mark options, you can still build an army dedicate to a god or mix and match. The special characters are still there and feature some real fun winners.

The down side? There are a few clunckers of questionable value in the list, spawns and possesed come to mind. People who built WAAC armies may have to retool a bit. Daemons are now a minor part of the army.

Most of us have managed to bring our armies up to speed with very little effort. Check out the new models and options in the new book and you may find a new direction for your old force.

Good luck.

EVIL INC
16-04-2008, 11:31
We have gone over this a million times already in many different threads...
1. daemons were weakened because they really have no place in a chaos marine army to begin with as the chaos marines (aside from one legion) disdain needing help from them. The special fancy daemons belong in the daemon army. Besides it weakened (and rightly so) the one trick pony daemon bomb list so that the smell of chedder would no longer overpower our senses. True, they are now fearless but do far less offensively and have less defensively to keep them alive which means that the end result is the same as they now lose combat far more often and then get killed due to thier fearlessness. Overall, no one can contest that they have been weakened.
2. The page after page of useless wargear that never saw the light of day on the gaming table was removed and the stuff that was actually used has been "built in" to the lords, sorcerers and daemon princes.The aspiring champs did not need it anyways.
The new trends I have seen so far...
1. People complaining about the lash ability.
2. Legions being added.People finally being able to field fluffy legion armies. The going back towards the roots allow you to field legion armies that actually have the options the legions should have. True, there are many bits that dont quite fit, but they fit far closer then they have in the 2nd and 3rd editions.
3. People ignoring the fluff and using all 4 power's units and mix/matching to make really tough as nails armies. For example, tough as nails Plague marines advancing under the ap3. cover fire of thousand sons.
5. A lot less reliance upon daemons and more reliance on chaos marines in thier chaos marine armies.
6. You now have the most dynamic, energetic and exciting chaos codex since the Realm of Chaos books. Much better then the last couple boring and bland codexes that had about as much character (legion-wise) as a mud pie. "Reguler chaos army-wise", the new one has just as much character as before, just with the removal of many of the power gamer possibilities and having much of the totally useless stuff that never saw action removed.
7. I must say that I agree with the uselessness of spawns and possessed though. Small price to pay for such an improvement.

Basically, just do a search, you will find a million (give or take a few lol) threads on the pros and cons, likes and dislikes on the new codex. I say read through it carefully and experiement on your own before making any hasty judgements. Good luck and welcome back into the evil fold.

Müller
16-04-2008, 11:49
Not all players used unbalanced army lists before the new codex, I was also away from the hobby for about 1.5 years, and coming back I also discovered the same thing as the OP.

I Used my army in most "middle-point-value-games" as this;
HQ
-Deamon Prince built for CC (with wings)

Elite
-1 Squad of Chosen with Icon in a Rhino
-1 Squad of Possessed to help lock enemy into CC

Troops
-3 Squads of Marines built for ranged combat (heavy weapon, minimal wargear on Asp. Champions) used to cover ground or lay down covering fire as needed while the assault force engaged quicker into CC.
-8 Bloodletters that would help the Deamon Prince if main CC proved harsh on my force, otherwise used as bacup for my Chosen when they have taken an objective or table quarter for survivability in those last rounds of combat...

Fast Attack
-1 Squad of Raptors that either helped in the main CC or swept around the battlefield to strike at the enemy's shooting guys/taking out tanks/etc...

Heavy Support
-1 Defiler armed for ranged combat to help supress enemy armor and heavy weaponry...

All in all I won and lost my share of games, and I never used Obliterators/masses of deamons... it never worked for my Black Legion's Fluff and I found it incredibly boring and cheesy...

Kurisu313
16-04-2008, 11:57
*facepalms* Not again, please....there are dozens of threads on this subject, not to mention a TACTICS forum. You should start your search there.

TzeentchForPresident
16-04-2008, 12:00
This topic again...

You asked what has changed?

A bunch of stuff has been buffed and got cheaper, the basic CSM has got free upgrades in terms of having both bolters and boltpistols + grenades but stayed the same in points. Terminators are much cheaper although they are kinda cowards these days as are the "chosen". To further buff the SM side of CSM they also got Vindicators.

Daemon Princes are much more worthwhile than they were before. Wasn´t possible to make a Daemon Prince with those stats + being immune to insta-death, that cheap in old codex.

Generic Lesser daemons have much better staying power than the ones in previous codex being fearless instead of instabile, having the stats of a Space Marine but with no power armour and cheaper. Needless to say the Daemon Bomb is alive and kicking and is cheaper this time. Greater Daemon is in the same way more powerful than its point suggest compared to the old greater daemons, and like the lesser ones with no character at all.

So the CSM 4.0 is powergamers wet dream coming true. Cheap firepower since the marines and termies got cheaper, more heavy weapons compared to previous codex with exception of the old Iron Warriors.

Cheaper Daemon Princes that now can use the Lash of Submission a more powerful psychic ability than anything that was in old codex. Cheaper daemons. Able to use combos that wasn´t possible in old codex like using lash to open up enemy troops for charge of Khorne Berzerkers. Even if lash had existed in last codex that wouldn´t have been possible due to ancient hatred.

Or you can gather them them to fit under the template of a Vindicators ordnance weapons. Something that wasn´t either possible in old codex even if lash had been there since Iron Warriors, the only ones that could take Vindicators, couldn´t have characters and troops with mark of Slaanesh.

So to sum it up with exception of the some lists in old codex like the entire Iron Warrior legion, that was a big big failure in terms of gaming balance, the Bloodletter daemon bomb and some Daemon Prince combos (expensive ones) the 4.0 codex is stronger, not weaker than 3.5. The ones that says it is weaker have Iron warriors, bloodletters and the odd Daemon Prince in mind.

But those 3 overpowered things could have been adressed without removing the Legions and a dozen types of daemons and leaving the most boring and bland Chaos codex to date for us to buy.

MrBigMr
16-04-2008, 12:36
I'm sorry, I was so going to avoid this, but just couldn't.


2. The page after page of useless wargear that never saw the light of day on the gaming table was removed and the stuff that was actually used has been "built in" to the lords, sorcerers and daemon princes.The aspiring champs did not need it anyways.
That is a load of bull. I've seen plenty of "useless" wargear and gifts on the table. It's just that some people prefer the "no brainer solutions", which they are, inteded for people with no brains, just a calculator. I so loathe that I have to take things with characters now. I don't want my lord to be a killing machine on all ranges, I don't want him to have an Inv. save or anything else like that. But now I don't have a choice.

I so hate how GW decides how I kit my sergeants and such. When the new SM codex comes out, I'll be a happy camper when I have to replace my bolter for a power fist and not the pistol (no, I don't want the +1 bonus, though I've heard it'll be going away anyway). Why can't an assault sergeant have a two handed ranged weapon, like a bolter?

Why can't we have "cheap" options, like captains and Chaos lieutenants? I don't want a librarian/chaplain or a sorcerer in the lead of my army in smaller games.


This new trend is not intended for the people who actually want to have more than a kick ass army on the table. This is for tournaments and competitive gaming. All armies are like M&Ms, different color but under the thin candy cover lies the same sticky brown stuff.


Sorry, I just couldn't help my self. I don't care what the game used to be and how it's going back to it. Development should be about moving forwards, not about inventing something new, then ignoring it and going back to the old design, leaving everyone that liked the new idea hanging in the air.

Ok, I'll stop my bitching. No one cares anyway, so I don't know why I bother.

Grand Master Raziel
16-04-2008, 13:03
Anyway having collected chaos since before the first codex i have a largeish pool of marines to draw from, although they are all "undivided" marines, so guys to save me some digging around and much wailing and gnashing of teeth what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?

I take the above to mean that our friend here isn't looking to throw gasoline on the embers of the Codex: Chaos Space Marines fire, but simply asking what works and what doesn't so he can update his list with as little fuss as possible. Now, this thread has started to get hijacked by those who would continue wrangling over the thing for no good purpose (EVIL INC, TzeenchforPresident, MrBigMr, I'm looking at you!), but it hasn't spiralled out of control yet. What say we keep it that way? The OP, I gather, doesn't care whether we think the current C:CSM is the greatest thing since the New Testament or a waste of perfectly good bumwad, so let's all be mature enough to not grind our axes on his thread, and just stick to trying to help him adjust to the new dex. I don't think that's too much to ask.

On that note, Ml2sjw, if I were using Codex: Chaos Space Marines, I'd build an army largely around plain old Chaos Space Marines, because the humble CSM has become probably the best basic trooper for his points in the entire game. The basic CSM totes a bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frag grenades and krak grenades, which means he's ready for virtually anything without any kind of upgrade whatsoever. I have a liking for mechanised forces, so if I were building a Chaos army, I'd be inclined to use three or four Rhino-mounted 10-man CSM squads with the Icon of Chaos Glory (Mark of Chaos Undivided by another name), dual assault weapons and a PF-toting AsChamp as the core of the force. A good mech force needs some gun tanks to draw fire away from the transports, so I'd use a couple Preds with lascannon turrets and HB sponsons. Take a unit of Rhino-mounted Chosen to accompany a Chaos Lord, and you've got yourself a pretty good, dymanic, mobile 1500pt force. Alternately, I'd take a Lord with a jump pack and have him accompany a unit of Raptors - they can keep up with the Rhino-mounted units, so they don't break theme. Opinions vary as to what's good and what's not in Codex: Chaos Space Marines (if you're unlucky, you'll get to see just how much they vary), but that's what I'd do with it.

EVIL INC
16-04-2008, 13:27
I'm sorry, I was so going to avoid this, but just couldn't.


Point #1 That is a load of bull. I've seen plenty of "useless" wargear and gifts on the table. It's just that some people prefer the "no brainer solutions", which they are, inteded for people with no brains, just a calculator. I so loathe that I have to take things with characters now. I don't want my lord to be a killing machine on all ranges, I don't want him to have an Inv. save or anything else like that. But now I don't have a choice.

Point #2 I so hate how GW decides how I kit my sergeants and such. When the new SM codex comes out, I'll be a happy camper when I have to replace my bolter for a power fist and not the pistol (no, I don't want the +1 bonus, though I've heard it'll be going away anyway). Why can't an assault sergeant have a two handed ranged weapon, like a bolter?

Point #3 Why can't we have "cheap" options, like captains and Chaos lieutenants? I don't want a librarian/chaplain or a sorcerer in the lead of my army in smaller games.


Point #4 This new trend is not intended for the people who actually want to have more than a kick ass army on the table. This is for tournaments and competitive gaming. All armies are like M&Ms, different color but under the thin candy cover lies the same sticky brown stuff.


Point #5 Sorry, I just couldn't help my self. I don't care what the game used to be and how it's going back to it. Development should be about moving forwards, not about inventing something new, then ignoring it and going back to the old design, leaving everyone that liked the new idea hanging in the air.

Ok, I'll stop my bitching. No one cares anyway, so I don't know why I bother.

Point #1 Sure. :rolleyes: There was a couple of items that players would toss in to fill up points gaps to make an even 1500 or 2000 points.
Point #2 It was actually we gamers who decided what was best for lords and champions by demonstrating it through usage. You have chaos and marines mixed up. Chaos does not have seargants, they have champions and truth to tell, I would MUCH rather have a plasma pistal or bolt pistal on them then a reguler bolter.
Point #3 If you are such a min-maxer that you need the cheap options, just use what is there and dont kit it out so much. That is just being nitpicky. :p
Point #4 This new trend is for those who want to have more then just "a kick ass army on the table". It is for gamers and hobbiests. Those who enjoy the fluff and want to have fun and flavorfull armies rather then just the same old win at all costs trend.
Point #5 The new trend of going back to the roots of the game is a good thing because it is bringing the old fun stuff that was good about it back and pushing it forward to be improved in new and wonderfull ways that is bring the game to new heights. Now overall, I feel that the overall game has been simplified too much but within that framework, the new chaos codex is stepping away from that and opening new horizons for us gamers.

As we have seen, there will always be naysayers as well as those who love the improvements. To the OP, make up your own mind. Experiment with what you have and then with what you dont and deecide for yourself what works for you and what you enjoy.
And lock the thread because as you have seen, it will soon devolve into a flamefest against those of us who are trying to help you out with information and encouragement.

==Me==
16-04-2008, 13:42
Grand Master Raziel is on the right track, leave all your Chaos Codex baggage at the door, this isn't the thread for it.

To the OP, basic Troops are probably the most effective things in the new Codex. Basic CSMs are a bargain for a very flexible unit at range and in HtH, Berzerkers slaughter infantry in combat (they can tango with MCs too if you give the Champ a powerfist), Plague Marines are exceptionally resilient and can get plenty of special weapon firepower, Thousand Sons eat MEQs with AP3 bolters, Noise Marines are great mobile firing platforms and no slouches in combat, and Lesser Daemons are great for supporting an assault with cheap bodies and tying things down (marine stats with 2 attacks, not too shabby).

What sort of army are you looking to make? Shooty? Assaulty? God-specific? Legion?

TheOneWithNoName
16-04-2008, 14:44
The Rainbow Coalition of the Spiky Evil dudes is alive and well in this codex. The codex is at it's best when you take a little of everything so most list are going to be similar. 2 DPs (with 1 or 2 Lash), Cult squads in troops, Raptor squads and 2-4 Obliterators. Most lists will revolve around these units.


People finally being able to field fluffy legion armies.

Yeah, because nothing is more fluffy than losing your meager abilities when some bloke drops the flag. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

malisteen
16-04-2008, 14:51
4e Chaos Marines were going to be after Orks. Due to a problem with the ork models, they were pushed back, and Chaos Marines were pushed forward to fill the gap. As a result, we got a rush-job book, suffering from balance problems (lash on the one hand, spawn on the other, a wide range inbetween) and a lack of the normal bells and whistles for a 40k codex (note the lack of options for princes, that unlike most other recent armies, HQ selection doesn't alter your force make-up, etc), in addition to arguably 'meh' production values in other areas (I'm not the only one who thinks the 4e Chaos Codex art doesn't hold a candle to that in the 3.5 book).

Beyond that, we're also suffering from a over-reaction to the last book - which had too many options presented in too confusing a manner. GW seems to have decided that the answer was to push all of the legion stuff into apocalypse (although, if they had had more time to work on the codex, some of those options might have worked their way back into the core list - note how the eldar and ork codeces made a good attempt to incorporate their subfactions), and to push the daemonic elements into a separate book. You'll hear people tow the party line about Chaos Marines being about the Marines. The obvious reply is that without the chaos part, we're left with just another redundant marine codex.


It's not all that bad, you'll learn to work with it. There are several good units (the prince is bland, but good, basic chaos marines are great, terminators have a competitive points cost for the first time since 3e was released, etc), the generic daemons aren't quite as bad as they first appear (and the greater daemon is quite respectable for its modest point cost). All in all it's not awful, and after the jumble of the last book a semi-stripped down 4e codex was inevitable. That said, we were stuck with a beta version, and it shows. Nothing for it but to smile, shrug your shoulders, and use what we've got. I mean, in all honesty we aren't going to be stuck with this book for half as long as the Orks were stuck with their 3.0 codex, and they made it through, and had fun playing at the same time.


As for trends, the current winners in the CSM book are generally considered to be:

Princes, with wings, of course, and with lash if slaaneshii
Sorcerers, particularly Slaaneshii because of the lash
*note that the lash is generally considered fairly cheesy, and if you're group looks down on such things you might opt to avoid it.

Terminators

Chaos Space Marines
Plague Marines

Raptors

Obliterators
Vindicators


Losers are generally acknowledged to include:

Possessed
Spawn


Everything else is so so. Lists generally include more of the first list, and avoid the second list. Otherwise, more or less anything goes.


I play undivided myself, and here's my 1500 point list:


Daemon Prince w/ Wings & wind of chaos

3 Terminators, two combi meltas, heavy flamer, power fist
3 Terminators, ditto

10 Chaos Space Marines, Icon of Chaos Glory (basically undivided mark), flamer, meltagun, champ with power fist, all in a rhino with extra armor
10 Chaos Space Marines, ditto
10 Lesser Daemons

6 Raptors, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2 Meltaguns

1 Obliterator
1 Obliterator
1 Defiler with Heavy Flamer and extra cc.wep


List is aggressive and versatile, making use of tactical reserves and redundant, multipurpose units. It has 9 scoring units (a fairly decent number for chaos). Note that the lack of aligned marks or icons and the wind of chaos on the prince are purely for fluff reasons (I prefer pure undivided lists, and my prince has a dragon thing going). All in all, it's done fairly well for me. With the onset of 5e and the increased value of larger squads, I might consider combining the oblits into a unit of two, and the terminators into a unit of six (this will require a change in their equipment), but other then that I don't expect to need any significant changes.

TheOneWithNoName
16-04-2008, 14:54
4e Chaos Marines were going to be after Orks. Due to a problem with the ork models, they were pushed back, and Chaos Marines were pushed forward to fill the gap. As a result, we got a rush-job book, suffering from balance problems (lash on the one hand, spawn on the other, a wide range inbetween) and a lack of the normal bells and whistles for a 40k codex (note the lack of options for princes, that unlike most other recent armies, HQ selection doesn't alter your force make-up, etc), in addition to arguably 'meh' production values in other areas (I'm not the only one who thinks the 4e Chaos Codex art doesn't hold a candle to that in the 3.5 book).

Is this really the case? I never heard anything about this. That would explain a lot. Not that it would matter to some of the kool-aid drinkers in this thread though.

malisteen
16-04-2008, 15:22
That's the rumor I heard. Seems fairly believable to me. Simply looking at the last few codeces and comparing them to the chaos book rather supports the impression.

I'm not all that bitter about it. Again, while the current chaos book isn't great, it is serviceable, and other armies have had to deal with worse for longer. They had a mess to deal with - can't go that long without a release, and after the years stuck with the 3.0 book the orks really deserved a top quality release. And there are some advantages of the current chaos book - not the least of which being it isn't a confusing morass of cross referencing rules that many chaos players had trouble understanding, let alone opponants who didn't own the book.

Again, I'm not saying its great, I'm just saying its more productive to understand what happened, try to look on the bright side of the current situation, and just relax and have some fun.

MrBigMr
16-04-2008, 16:55
Point #1 Sure. :rolleyes: There was a couple of items that players would toss in to fill up points gaps to make an even 1500 or 2000 points.
I don't know about players aroung there, but here I know plenty of people who were bummed out when their nifty lords and ladies got crapped by the loss of wargear and gifts. I'm sorry if some like to have nifty armies rather than something "everyone is using."


Point #2 It was actually we gamers who decided what was best for lords and champions by demonstrating it through usage. You have chaos and marines mixed up. Chaos does not have seargants, they have champions and truth to tell, I would MUCH rather have a plasma pistal or bolt pistal on them then a reguler bolter.
So? That's like saying it's our fault for not playing enough Squats that GW dropped them. It doesn't cost GW a dime to let me have a bolter sergeant with a power fist. If in 5th edition you can't get bonus attack from a fist without another fist, I'd rather have the bolter to give him some extra punch when there's no targets close enough.

Many players also used 4 HS Iron Warriors and all, but they got dropped as well, so didn't we use them enough or what? And where does GW get this info on what players like to have? I doubt they've seen any of my lists. Surely all their information comes from their tournaments and there people take only stuff that works the best. What about us who aren't interested on pwning n00bs like there's no tomorrow? What about those of us who like to do more to their armies than a popular list of things with a nice paintjob and some bit swaps? I'd rather field an army I'm happy with and lose every single time with it than have a "fair" and "balanced" competitive list.

It doesn't cost GW a damn to have options in lists, even if they're so full of s*** no one in their right mind would take them. Isn't it amazing that once GW site was filled with all sorts of nifty conversions, but now all they really show is how to use the ready GW plastic sets.

My Chaos army became unusable with the new Chaos codex when all the nice little things were taken away (without tons of "counts as" and such). Using the SM codex was a cheap substitute, though offered more support to their fluff. I've also planned ahead with the DA/BA codexes to see what the new SM codex will do to my army.

And by sergeants I'm also talking about the trand in the new SM codexes.


Point #3 If you are such a min-maxer that you need the cheap options, just use what is there and dont kit it out so much. That is just being nitpicky. :p
Oh, please. Look in the mirror. You're the one who doesn't have anything that has no worth and now you're accusing me of min-maxing. Of all the armies I have, the only min-max I have is a 6 man IG Hardened Veteran squad with 3 meltas and grav-chutes.

What I mean is that in a 500pts. game I'm sure I would have more to do with the 15pts. that I get from taking a captain over master. What does that 15pts. buy me? One extra wound and 1 more W and Ld. And what about Combat Patrol? Surely they'll send a captain out there rather than a chaplain or a librarian (yes, you don't need a HQ in CP, but one could take it).


Point #4 This new trend is for those who want to have more then just "a kick ass army on the table". It is for gamers and hobbiests. Those who enjoy the fluff and want to have fun and flavorfull armies rather then just the same old win at all costs trend.
Fun and flavoured as vanilla ice cream with vanilla sauce on a vanilla stick. Once you had more than few different weapons and a different painjob.

I can see how double lash Slaanesh DPs leading an army of Tzeentch terminators, Plague Marines, Khorne Raptors and Thousand Sons is so much more fluffy and fun than the old days when the gods and their followers actually hated each other.


Point #5 The new trend of going back to the roots of the game is a good thing because it is bringing the old fun stuff that was good about it back and pushing it forward to be improved in new and wonderfull ways that is bring the game to new heights. Now overall, I feel that the overall game has been simplified too much but within that framework, the new chaos codex is stepping away from that and opening new horizons for us gamers.
Well I'm happy someone likes it, but to me It's about as fun as if suddenly all electricity was removed from the world and fire was reinstated, better than ever and taking the world to new heights.

I'm not saying no one likes it or that it's total crap, but somewhere along the line GW has forgotten the little people while giving a reach around to the majority of the paying customers.

DrDoom
16-04-2008, 16:55
Gotta go woth malisteen on this one.

The new codex isn't as powerful as the last one and suffers from some severe balance issues. I miss my Dreadnoughts.

Anyway, the strength of the new codex are the Marines. Icons give Chaos more flexibility than ever, and every Marine gets two attacks, plus a range of shooty options. You're play style really dictates what you want to feild.

I woulod encourage you to play a couple of games with your regular marines and see which part appeals to you. Then go from there.

Oh yeah, buy Plague Marines. They're just too good to pass up.

AmBlam
16-04-2008, 17:38
Wait for 5th edition is my advice.

Richter Kless
16-04-2008, 17:45
Oh MrBigMr, you just couldn't resist, could you?

I personally love the new Chaos codex and these new warbands really let me get creative.

Just don't let the bitter warseerians here pollute your mind too much.

Müller
16-04-2008, 18:06
MrBig is right on spot...
Old Codex was better both fluffwise and gamewise...

I DONT CARE that the new CSM footers are greatest of it's kind in nowadays, I want my fluffed army back, the BALANCED and themed Black Legion I ran... and no, because I LIKE Fluff I didn't mix-match all gods under one banner, instead I chose an army with more leanage towards Khorne without being completely dedicated to Khorne (ie. World Eaters)... that way I had ONE Khornate unit, and had my possessed and my Deamon Prince painted with reddish skin to show the more Khornate embrace that my army had without being complete bloodthirst nutcases who all really belong in a psych ward ;)

Don't DARE to claim (evil inc) that all chaos players played the "win at all costs" card... In fact, I never sa a SINGLE such player in my local GW store, both when I lived in Sweden (which I do now again), and when I lived in Westport/CT/USA....

And yeah, the army list is &(%@£$%¤#"! boring now AND I have to dump all my *******' fluff, SHOULD redo my entire *******' army's theme, and basically start from scratch with a 4500p army... Where's the sense in that!?

MrBigMr
16-04-2008, 18:06
Oh MrBigMr, you just couldn't resist, could you?
Sorry.


I personally love the new Chaos codex and these new warbands really let me get creative.
Then you can imagine how I felt about the last one.
Some love mommy, some love daddy.


Just don't let the bitter warseerians here pollute your mind too much.
That is true. Look, I don't think the current codex is crap and one shouldn't touch it with the tip of a rending claw, but it's not perfect, far from "better", merely different than the last one. You can still exploit it and all. Nothing has changed really. Average players and powergamers can get much out of it, but we "min-maxers" that prefer to take "stupid" choices got hit hard.

Sorry.
All I can really say is to make a test run or two and see what happens.

Lexington
16-04-2008, 18:14
What happened?

Frogs happened.

That is all.

Kim Possible
16-04-2008, 18:17
Cheer up, guys. I'm sure your Codex gets redone again before Dark Eldar :)

Müller
16-04-2008, 18:33
I will most likely just keep playing my Ultramarines 5th Co. until I ger reasonable rules for my CSM again... Call me whatever you want but I'm NOT redoing my entire army and I
m NOT starting another CSM Army, because I created the army I love with the fluff I want, if I anted Nurgle, Tzeench or Slaanesh I would've gone for it right away...

Vaktathi
16-04-2008, 18:41
Anyway having collected chaos since before the first codex i have a largeish pool of marines to draw from, although they are all "undivided" marines, so guys to save me some digging around and much wailing and gnashing of teeth what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies? for competitive lists, two jump Lash HQ's is pretty common coupled with oblits and noise marines. The basic CSM is pretty awesome for what they are, Plague Marines are also pretty common as they are very hard to kill. Berserkers are still great troops but Khorne lists as a whole are fairly weak, Thousand Sons are excellent anti-MEQ troopers, but keep them away from things that can force large numbers of armor saves as they will die like any other marine to a bolter. Terminators of just about every squad size are commonly seen, Raptors are also seen more often and work very well to get Icon-homers into position turns 2 and 3. In HS, Oblits tend to be the king of this field, I have yet to see Predators fielded with the new codex by anyone (oblits do their job better), Land raiders are rare as always, I've seen a couple vindicators, but they don't seem to mesh all that well to be honest, Defilers are kinda cool with Fleet but also die rather quickly.


I don't think the current codex is crap and one shouldn't touch it with the tip of a rending claw, but it's not perfect, far from "better", merely different than the last one. You can still exploit it and all. Nothing has changed really. Average players and powergamers can get much out of it

That's pretty much my view of it. I've seen more cookie cutter lists with the new codex than I ever saw of the last one. The new list on it's own isn't a bad list at all, I've actually done pretty ok with it, it just doesn't do either Renegades or Legions the justice they deserve, and given that most people have played a Legion, I think the refocusing went to far, and the book has a very bland and a (compared with the 3.5 and 2nd Ed book) unfluffy Icon system (why does a Khorne terminator not have the abilities or fearlessness of his power armored comrades?). Is the new book better balanced? Only marginally so. Does it have it's definite "Do Take" and "Don't Take" units? Yes, just different ones than the last codex. Is it still fine on the power scale? Yes. Does it have its cool points? Very much so. Is it the amazing cure to the 3.5 ed codex that it has been made out to be? No, it's not.

While people can say what they will of the previous codex, different Legions played very differently, and each Legion had its own flavor. I think GW could have redesigned Legions and introduced Renegades as a seperate force without lumping them all into one list and still make them distinct, balanced forces. For instance with IW, instead of giving them 4HS and the 9 oblits, give them increased options for firepower in terminator, chosen and troops squads, at the cost of melee options and Cult troops, add in provisions for fortifications and reduce HQ and psychic power availability and restrict Marks/Icons to only Glory on most units and Khorne on a couple units, add in a couple fluffy unit options, give shooting preferences to most units over assault ability, and remove Daemons from the list. That's how I've been approaching it, and it hasn't been too hard to come up with ways to do that, I don't see why GW didn't do it.

UncleCrazy
16-04-2008, 18:51
I quit playing Chaos because of the 3.5ed codex. I thought it was horrible. I play my WE and Fallen more now though.

Weak Demons? fine by me, if I want to play demon heavy armies I will use Codex: Demons

My Legion army? Well it has not changed much in over 12 years.

Lash too strong? Well I will take Psychic Hoods, and other anti-psychic wargear. Mostly playing GK right now so I dont fear it much anyways.

Mixing of Legions? Whats new about that?

Müller
16-04-2008, 18:56
Weak Demons? fine by me, if I want to play demon heavy armies I will use Codex: Demons

why would a CSM army just have to be deamon heavy just because the deamons are good?

you concider 8 bloodletters deamon heavy?

MrBigMr
16-04-2008, 19:00
I think GW could have redesigned Legions and introduced Renegades as a seperate force without lumping them all into one list and still make them distinct, balanced forces.
It's even more amazing that while the renegade list is suppose to present non-legion troops, ones that have fallen after the HH (right), they're as good as "normal" CSM. Where are the assault cannons? Where are the storm bolters? Land speeders, attack bikes, etc.? How do they field combi-bolters when SM don't have then anymore?

I've always preferred the approach of an article in CA2004, where it was stated that if one wants to field a Chaos army that has fallen recently, they should use the SM codex and Chaos models. Has everything one needs. Get the new SM stuff and not all the long term Chaos benefits.

That's what I'm using when I field my Chaos army with SM codex, though they're not marines in fluff. I get my sonic terminators (storm bolter is about the same apart from the lack of Heavy 3), I get Eldar as my preferred enemy (though not sure if it'll stick in the future), drop pods, obliterator techmarine, command squad (apothecary and champion), etc.

Obliterati
16-04-2008, 19:42
Well Mr. ml2sjw, as you can see, you've kicked over a bit of a hornet's nest...don't worry about it. It's become basically impossible to have any discussions about the CSM Codex on this site without the thread degenerating into a pro-Codex/anti-Codex stupidfest. I suspect that Chaos cultists are feeding the fires...

Anyway, in answer to your questions, I would echo what several others have said: the basic Chaos Space Marine is pretty much the best Troop unit in the entire game right now. For a 1500 pt, grab-n-go style army, I would load up on as many CSMs as possible. Plague Marines are also excellent, very tough to kill.

As far as recent trends go, there seemed to be a emphasis on mechanized forces for a while...lot's of Rhinos, Predators and Land Raiders, etc...but rumored rule changes in the upcoming 5th edition Rulebook may make foot-slogging assault infantry more powerful. So right now, things are a little up in the air, strategy-wise. But you can't really go wrong with Demon Princes w/ wings, Terminators (small, cheap squads seem to work very well), meltagun-armed Raptors, Obliterators, and of course your standard Chaos Marine.

Grand Master Raziel
16-04-2008, 21:36
Gentlemen! What the monkey is the matter with you? Haven't you got anything better than to pee and moan on the internet over C:CSM? Seriously, what is it accomplishing? It's not like it's going to make Jervis Johnson suddenly say, "Sorry, it was a huge mistake, we'll redo it and have the new book out in six months!" or "The fanboys can blow it out their ears, this is exactly what Chaos should be and we're never going to change it!" I'm not telling you to let it go or anything, but if you have strong opinions about the book that must be expressed, I suggest you commit them to paper and mail them to the following address:

Jervis Johnson
c/o White Dwarf Design Studio
Games Workshop
Willow Road
Nottingham NG7 2WS
United Kingdom

That way, there's at least a snowball's chance that you might influence game design, which is more than you get from bloviating on teh Intarwebs. I can tell you from experience that Jervis does actually read snail-mails that come his way. Last year, I wrote him a ten-page doozy that he not only read, but took the time to personally reply to - not a form letter, but an actual reply referencing the letter I'd written him in the first place. So, take some of that time and energy and express yourself to Jervis direct instead rehashing arguments that have already been aired and re-aired more than enough for one decade. Let's not hijack the poor OP's thread to have yet another knitting circle over C:CSM.

For the record, there is no C:CSM errata. Just an attempt at levity on my part.

Durath
16-04-2008, 21:40
/golfclap Raziel

Grow up.

(rick rolls are about played out don't ya think?)

ChaosBeast
16-04-2008, 21:46
trying to stay on topic here, avoid las-predators, they are always gone within a tiurn. however many people say it is unfluffy the most competitive lists come from multi-cult combos like slanesh and nurgle, but if you do want a single cult army i would go for Slannesh, their weaponry is good and they arent to bad in combat, the extra initiative really makes a difference as does lash. saying that, i recently played my Khorne list against plague marines, 8 beserkers against 10 plague marines in combat, and they walked all over me, i worked out the odds later, out of 100 attacks you'd average out at about 4 wounds. just my suggestion ( but dont play just Khorne, i barely ever win!)

EVIL INC
16-04-2008, 22:13
As you can see, this is yet another thread for the flamers to ruin. I saw that coming a mile away LOL.
To the original poster, make your own mind up as to which you prefer rather then listen to those of us who enjoy that the codex has improved and made mighty strides forward in terms of fun and adding flavor (especially to the legions). Likewise, dont listen to those who are still suffering from losing out on thier daemon bomb/iron warriors/ super pimped out infiltrating lords/ flat out boring armies. Make your own decisions.

Captain Micha
16-04-2008, 22:19
I would check the tactica forum for chaos tactics and unit choices. In my opinion whatever list you make I would take plenty of normal chaos space marines. Best troop in the game right there. I thought Dark Angels had some awesome basic marines but chaos totally trumped them. My Necron warriors just look more and more inept with each marine army released it seems.

Another unit that seems quite worthy of taking would be havoc squads. *cheaper cost than oblits, more in a squad and can have up to 20 strong for maximum ablative wounds should it be required...some how*

Also Kim Possible up there said it best to you codex haters. The codex will be redone at least once before Dark Eldar come out. (and probably before Necrons too)

catbarf
16-04-2008, 22:43
Okay everybody! No more Chaos threads! It's totally impossible that someone might bring something new to this discussion (Which the existence of this thread disproves). No more talk! Talking is bad!

Ahem.

Cult Troops are now very good. I recommend some of those.

Plastic Rat
16-04-2008, 23:53
This new trend is not intended for the people who actually want to have more than a kick ass army on the table. This is for tournaments and competitive gaming. All armies are like M&Ms, different color but under the thin candy cover lies the same sticky brown stuff.


Totally agree with you there man, and I'm a Dark Angels player. Some players don't necessarily WANT to take all the no-brainer options. The 'useless' wargear? I liked it. It was the reason I came to 40k over other games where you can't modify your units.

I liked going over the list and modeling tiny little pieces of wargear to stick on my guys, it was like playing with action figures. I don't care if the WAAC kiddies think something is 'useless', I might still want to take it, because it's fun or cool looking.

Why shouldn't I have that option?

cailus
16-04-2008, 23:53
to the new dex. I don't think that's too much to ask.

On that note, Ml2sjw, if I were using Codex: Chaos Space Marines, I'd build an army largely around plain old Chaos Space Marines, because the humble CSM has become probably the best basic trooper for his points in the entire game. The basic CSM totes a bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frag grenades and krak grenades, which means he's ready for virtually anything without any kind of upgrade whatsoever. I have a liking for mechanised forces, so if I were building a Chaos army, I'd be inclined to use three or four Rhino-mounted 10-man CSM squads with the Icon of Chaos Glory (Mark of Chaos Undivided by another name), dual assault weapons and a PF-toting AsChamp as the core of the force. A good mech force needs some gun tanks to draw fire away from the transports, so I'd use a couple Preds with lascannon turrets and HB sponsons. Take a unit of Rhino-mounted Chosen to accompany a Chaos Lord, and you've got yourself a pretty good, dymanic, mobile 1500pt force. Alternately, I'd take a Lord with a jump pack and have him accompany a unit of Raptors - they can keep up with the Rhino-mounted units, so they don't break theme. Opinions vary as to what's good and what's not in Codex: Chaos Space Marines (if you're unlucky, you'll get to see just how much they vary), but that's what I'd do with it.

Might as well be an Imperial list. It's exactly the sort of thing that makes people say that the new codex is Codex Spiky Loyalists.

Captain Micha
16-04-2008, 23:57
I could build a similar list to that, except for assault it does shooting, with my Tau. That might as well be an Imperial list too right? :p

complete with jump troopers and hq jumper.

Aside from that calius, a marine is a marine is a marine. No matter what codex or color you paint it. It was that way before too and it will always be until they stop being marines.

MegaPope
17-04-2008, 01:11
Gaming in an area with a lot of 'traditional' Chaos players;), many were mightly miffed when this new Codex came out - the funniest comment I heard was when someone said they'd changed the concept from Codex:Chaos Marines to Codex: Emo Marines;).

I admit I also felt like this in the early stages, but, having bought and played with the new codex, it has grown on me considerably. (The only thing I don't like was the splitting of CSM and Daemons - this is not WFB; daemons should not be autonomous. Their entry into the material world should always be facilitated by mortals, unless you're fighting every battle in the EoT. Besides which, I have a horrible feeling that the Daemon list is a new one to which the munchkins will flock in droves. It smells like another Nidzilla, in all honesty).

Anyway, back OT - the strength of C:CSM is its flexibility: the Marines that for the backbone of your forces are tough versatile dudes, and the infantry swarm approach seems to work very well (armour has always been something of a luxury purchase in any Marine army IMO - the strength of all Marine forces are the Marines themselves). The cult troops provide an essential bit of colour that stops the army from being 'spiky loyalists' IMO.

Other than that, just use what you damn well like - come what may, the CSM model range is still incredibly characterful and more tolerant of conversions than any other. Nearly all the units in the book are useful, cost-effective and practical in their own way - IMO there's no need to spam anything. FTR, I play Word Bearers - always have, always will - and quite frankly, I don't miss their legion rules at all, because daemon-bombing was never my style. My Chaplain still has an Accursed Crozius and a 4+ invulnerable save.

I can see the 'Big Four' Cultic legions eventually getting their own book. But for the Undivided ones - it really isn't necessary. All the options are already there - multiple Oblits and Vindis for IWs, multiple Raptors for NLs, multiple infiltrating Veterans for AL, non-slot Daemons for WBs...it's all there, in the basic rulebook.

cailus
17-04-2008, 01:17
I could build a similar list to that, except for assault it does shooting, with my Tau. That might as well be an Imperial list too right? :p

complete with jump troopers and hq jumper.

Aside from that calius, a marine is a marine is a marine. No matter what codex or color you paint it. It was that way before too and it will always be until they stop being marines.


Chaos offers more than just Marines though. It offers Possessed, cult Troops, Spawn, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons etc.

The list provided had noneo of these and basically emphasised Tactical Marines (CSM's) in Rhinos and Assault Marines (aka Raptors) supported by Predators.

Grand Master Raziel
17-04-2008, 02:06
/golfclap Raziel

Grow up.

(rick rolls are about played out don't ya think?)

You're right. I've just been taken with them lately. I was trying to interject a little levity into a thread that, if it continues like others of this ilk have, will have tempers boiling over.

Having got that out of the way, I'd like to point out (not to you specifically Durath, but to folks in general) that it takes two to tango. In other words, a thread can only explode into a contentious mess if multiple people actively participate in making it so. If folks would just refuse to bite, it won't happen. Lack of response to the outrageous assertions of some numbskull does not imply agreement with said numbskull. You are not obliged to shoot down every specious argument that appears on the internet, or even on the sites you frequent. Doing so is probably counterproductive anyway, because it just adds fuel to the fire. Let's have everyone, both pro- and con-C:CSM step back to their respective corners and stay there for a while. If someone tries to kick the thing off, just don't go there, if for no other reason than respect for the OP, who probably isn't interested in replaying a series of arguments from threads past. Just help him adjust to the new dex sans editorialization.


Might as well be an Imperial list.

So? What's wrong with that? Loyalists and traitors are two sides of the coin. Their bread-and-butter stuff is very similar and always has been, at least since I started playing in 3rd ed. Chaos makes for a very good mechanized list because they can get two assault weapons per (Troops) squad and because they have the better-than-True Grit weapons trio. Loyalist SM armies can only do the former with a Trait and can't get the latter at all. Making an army unique is as much about the personality, assembling, paint job, and backstory you invest it with as it is about sticking in units that are unique to your particular Codex - maybe even more so, if you have a genuine theme and are sticking to it rather than simply taking all the units that peeps on teh intarwebs say are the optimal ones. If squads in Rhinos backed by Preds work for me, who are you to criticise that? You use what you want, I'll use what I want, and we'll see which army everyone else thinks is cooler and more unique.

EVIL INC
17-04-2008, 02:19
Dont become one of those lazy boring WAAC players who are bemoaning the loss of thier cheese lists. Learn to use the new codex and make your own decisions as to how to effectively use it.

cailus
17-04-2008, 02:53
So? What's wrong with that? Loyalists and traitors are two sides of the coin. Their bread-and-butter stuff is very similar and always has been, at least since I started playing in 3rd ed. Chaos makes for a very good mechanized list because they can get two assault weapons per (Troops) squad and because they have the better-than-True Grit weapons trio. Loyalist SM armies can only do the former with a Trait and can't get the latter at all. Making an army unique is as much about the personality, assembling, paint job, and backstory you invest it with as it is about sticking in units that are unique to your particular Codex - maybe even more so, if you have a genuine theme and are sticking to it rather than simply taking all the units that peeps on teh intarwebs say are the optimal ones. If squads in Rhinos backed by Preds work for me, who are you to criticise that? You use what you want, I'll use what I want, and we'll see which army everyone else thinks is cooler and more unique.


Why don't we then just get rid of Codex Chaos and let people use Codex Space Marines with a few more traits added in?

Why have flavour and character and background when we can simply pick rules that favour a certain rules advantage (and your standard Chaos beakie is much better than a Marine one)?

zippy_tang
17-04-2008, 03:53
after reading a good 10 or so of these topics about the new chaos book being good/bad ive had my time to null over each and every complaint and post. now finally im gettin off my ass to say something on the subject.

stop it!

no more, its useless flaming thats happened many many times and even tho i myself (thousand son player) may find the book a little disappointing towards my legion i think the world of warseer has heard plenty and plenty about it.

easiest way of saying this is both sides are correct leave it at that. it is after all what is known as an opinion (something that i have noticed warseer posters aren't allowed to have)

EVIL INC
17-04-2008, 11:26
after reading a good 10 or so of these topics about the new chaos book being good/bad ive had my time to null over each and every complaint and post. now finally im gettin off my ass to say something on the subject.

stop it!

no more, its useless flaming thats happened many many times and even tho i myself (thousand son player) may find the book a little disappointing towards my legion i think the world of warseer has heard plenty and plenty about it.

easiest way of saying this is both sides are correct leave it at that. it is after all what is known as an opinion (something that i have noticed warseer posters aren't allowed to have)

GFT . The constant flaming is totally not needed. We should be able to hold our own opinions and offer help to one newly returned to the hobby without getting flamed for it.

AdmiralDick
17-04-2008, 11:39
don't worry, ml2sjw, these threads are usually a rough ride to start off with, but after the first few pages of the same old arguments for and against, and a whole load of people paradoxically agruing that everyone should stop arguing, it settles down again and you can actually get some pretty reasoned sense out of us Chaos veteran fans.

sadly after about 10 pages the discussion then breaks down again as people stop listening to each other. but hey, maybe this one will be different. i just hope you can hold on for long enough to find out what you wanted to know.

TzeentchForPresident
17-04-2008, 13:33
GFT . The constant flaming is totally not needed. We should be able to hold our own opinions and offer help to one newly returned to the hobby without getting flamed for it.

Op asked us a question actually, "what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?"

And people are giving their personal opinion about that, and there is no right or wrong about a personal opinion. No need to call a person a "whiner" or trying to start a flamewar because a person tells us his wiew of the trend and what he feels about it.

And when when the basic spikey marine gets grenades and a bolter for free, Raptors gets a pricecut and lose their rarity and special rules, spikey terminators gets a price cut. Then you can say there is a trend of making CSM more Space Marine like.

Now I am dying to know your and AdmiralDicks answer to the question
"what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?"

Or is there more arguing about arguing to come? ;)

EVIL INC
17-04-2008, 14:21
The OP asked a question and we are trying to give him/her answers.
We are giving the trends and suggesting ideason what they can do. The constant flaming about how someone thinks it sucks ect is not really needed and adds nada to the thread. Those of us who have put on a positive face and are pointing out the new stuff that they can try are being constructive in our posts rather then destructive in flaming and telling them only bad stuff in an effort to turn them against "da man for ruining what we liked". The new codex is different from the last. Those of us who are for progress have the opinion that it is better, those of use who like it the way it was, have the opinion that it is worse. As it is not going to change, why not make the best of it and encourage new/returning chaos players to find new ways and to experiemnt to find ways in which to play the army effectively and in a fun way instead of trying to poisen thier mind against something without giving them the option to form thier own opinions.
Making chaos marines (NOT spiky marines as they are a far far cry from being "just spiky marines":rolleyes:) more effective in that over the course of 10,000 years they have developed holsters and scrounged enough pistals/bolters to effectively equip themselves and that raptors have gained the numbers that fluff dictates they have as well as a few other things that only made comman sense now makes them more viable to use. Before, too many people used the daemon bomb pony but now with the teeth pulled from that, the basic chaos marine stands at the forefront of the chaos armies (as well they are supposed to).
The current trends as I have seen them are..
1. A greater reliance upon chaos marines.
2. People abusing the lash power (although I have YET to see anyone actually use it at all).
3. Mixing of the cult troops in a way that goes against the fluff (I agree that this is a bad thing. Not a huge deal, but the old timers like me wrinkle thier noses at it)
4. People using legion armies. With the removal of the idiotic restraints in the previous edition, players are now able to fashion fully functional cult armies that are the closest to the fluff since the days of Rogue Trader. This has drawbacks though as it is only an improvement rather then a total fix. These drawbacks include units given the mark of a god through an icon not gaining fearlessness. This does not make sense but at least it does allow units that SHOULD have been able to get the marks before but werent, the ability to get them now.
5. You will likely see many players who use multiple daemon princes.

You mentioned that you have a reasonable sized army. Do some experiementation with different lists and find combinations and ideas that work for you. You are now able to field much fluffier armies that have more flavor and character then before (excluding Rogue Trader) so make the best of it and enjoy the spiffy new models if you decide to get them.

TheOneWithNoName
17-04-2008, 15:42
The thread would have been fine if it stuck to the original question, but it took only 3 posts for it to be derailed.

TzeentchForPresident
17-04-2008, 16:18
The thread would have been fine if it stuck to the original question, but it took only 3 posts for it to be derailed.

Can´t say you are wrong about that one, but you are not helping either... unless you answer the original question:
"what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?"

:evilgrin:

AdmiralDick
17-04-2008, 16:32
I am dying to know your and AdmiralDicks answer to the question
"what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?"

Or is there more arguing about arguing to come? ;)

Que?

why are you dragging me into this? i was merely pointing out that whilst there is a lot of seemingly pointless arguing for and against the new codex and even as to whether we should be arguing at all, that eventually it would settle down and people would try and answer the question at hand. the problem is that people start threads like this, and they get met with off topic arguments, and then understandably give up on the thread, rather than sticking it out and getting what they wanted out of it.

personally i've seen an overall decrease in the number of CSM armies being played, so i'm not really the best person to answer the question of treands, which is why i didn't attempt to answer the question.

if you really, really, really want me to give a wild stab at it i would have said that most people tend to take what they want, rather than what they have calculated to be the best thing, so basic marines have prooved universally rather popular, because people take them and then find that they work. conversely everyone's taken spawn and possessed, because they liked the models and then have found them less than helpful so they take something of a back burner in many armies. Other stuff are things that everyone's heard of and wanted to give a try; DP's with Lash, more cult troops that sort of thing.

catbarf
17-04-2008, 18:46
Chaos offers more than just Marines though. It offers Possessed, cult Troops, Spawn, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons etc.

Except for cult troops, you just mentioned the worst parts of the codex.

malisteen
17-04-2008, 20:22
Not entirely true, greater daemons are pretty good, actually.

Some of the (good) units that make CSM4e not just spikey marines:

Daemon Prince
Greter Daemon
Cult Troops (all 4)
Obliterators

That's in addition to the following (decent, if not good) units

Lesser Daemons
Defiler


Again, I'm not saying the 4e book is great, or even good, just that it isn't as bad as some say.

And the lack of the following frequently used marine units:

scouts
land speeders

AnotherDroneInMyHead
17-04-2008, 21:08
To answer the original question (and avoid a lot of what has gone before) I would suggest the following are useful
Daemon Prince with wings (and warptime - way better than the lash, and loads more fun)
Greater daemon - what a bargain at 100 points
Terminators (minimise powerfists and combi weapons - keep them cheap and cheerful)
Possessed can have their uses in small squads in a CC orientated army
Basic CSM are great, again for 1500 points I would avoid putting anything other than power weapons (fists if you must)
Cult troops are good - Plague marines are amazingly good, especially for objective based games
Obliterators are very useful, even without projectile weapons
A Dakka Predator (Autocannon and Heavy Bolters) is only 100 points, a very cheap option that can be useful if you have other big stuff (oblits, DP) lurking about to spread the opposition heavy weapon fire. as others have said before though, avaoid lascannons on a Pred at all costs, especially at 1500 points or below.
Raptors are pretty useful - a cheap 5 man squad is a good way of getting a Greater Daemon near your opposition quickly, flamers and meltas all round as well!
You can build what you want from the codex, and they all work...

Victomorga
17-04-2008, 21:19
so we're agreed then?
the trend in current 1500 pt. chaos lists is complaining about the new codex.

Durath
17-04-2008, 21:58
Having got that out of the way, I'd like to point out (not to you specifically Durath, but to folks in general) that it takes two to tango. In other words, a thread can only explode into a contentious mess if multiple people actively participate in making it so....

Let's have everyone, both pro- and con-C:CSM step back to their respective corners and stay there for a while.

There's an old adage "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." This often refers to people complaining about a problem enough that the problem gets solved.

Well, there's another truth in that old adage. And that would be, "With so many people are complaining, maybe there is something wrong."

I play Chaos, Renegade Slaaneshi Chaos at that. At first I loved the new book. I laughed when I read complaints about it, thinking of all the FoTM World Eaters folks who were crying, and knowing I have a much improved chance to beat them.

But now that I have played a number of games with the list, I understand that these frustrations were not misgiven. To stay competative in tournament play, there is definitely a "cookie-cutter" aspect to it now. Even my Slaaneshi force that actually won an RT tournament about 4 years ago is hard to play, and really not that great on the table.

Mostly, it really comes down to what they've done to daemons for me. The divergence between "Chaos Marines w/ summoned daemons" and "Chaos Daemons" while fine for Apocalypse, really blows for Tournament play.

And while I don't particularily care much for legion armies, the removal of them would **** me off if I played them. So even though I laughed at first, I empathize now.


And one last thing...

Not everyone who posts here knows that there have been topics about this already. Nor should they be expected to know, nor expected to be silent about their frustration. Last time I checked, this was a forum about Warhammer 40k, and this would be the place to discuss such things.

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-04-2008, 22:33
In before new Codex hate.

Well, I did beat them.


Not that it would matter to some of the kool-aid drinkers in this thread though.

Boy, that was necessary. Could someone enlighten me as to what he means by 'Kool-Aid drinker?' I'm not sure if I fall under the scope of that epithet because... I dunno what it is. Seems to be an insult of some kind, and I shall see if it is good enough to go into my arsenal.


Isn't it amazing that once GW site was filled with all sorts of nifty conversions, but now all they really show is how to use the ready GW plastic sets.

This bugs me too, actually.


Fun and flavoured as vanilla ice cream with vanilla sauce on a vanilla stick.

That sounds tasty... *drools* I like vanilla ice cream. :o


I can see how double lash Slaanesh DPs leading an army of Tzeentch terminators, Plague Marines, Khorne Raptors and Thousand Sons is so much more fluffy and fun than the old days when the gods and their followers actually hated each other.

Like I've said before, there will always be people who abuse a list to get a competetive advantage. Unless every Craftworld is stated in fluff to have an equivalent to Eldrad and a large number of Falcons and Harlequins at ready...


/golfclap Raziel

Grow up.

(rick rolls are about played out don't ya think?)

Eh? I didn't see anything immature about trying to get people back on track in this thread instead of beating this rotten corpse of a horse. He even offered a constructive way to do it. Pooh and bah, sir.


Can´t say you are wrong about that one, but you are not helping either... unless you answer the original question:
"what are the trends in current chaos 1500 point armies?"

I'd love to say something about the pot and the kettle, but you did answer the question... curse you and your befoilment of my evil plot.


so we're agreed then?
the trend in current 1500 pt. chaos lists is complaining about the new codex.

That's it, my good friend.


Well, there's another truth in that old adage. And that would be, "With so many people are complaining, maybe there is something wrong."

I tend to see it as "people complain, all the time, about absolutely everything and anything ever." That's just me.


Not everyone who posts here knows that there have been topics about this already. Nor should they be expected to know, nor expected to be silent about their frustration. Last time I checked, this was a forum about Warhammer 40k, and this would be the place to discuss such things.

Yeah, but one is supposed to do a search before posting a topic, and a single search with the right words would have brought up enough topics for one to post in an informed fashion. And this topic, despite being related to WH40k, is just a little hackneyed.


Well... to answer your question, I'll need an idea of what you like playing with. The new Codex allows for some variation of style (to say the least), so are there any particular Gods you prefer to fight under the banner of, any playstyles you prefer...........? Anything?

And I repeat my question to the OP, who hasn't shown up to answer back. Fie on you and your impunctuality... :p

*wonders if we've been had*

Skirnak
17-04-2008, 22:48
4. People using legion armies. With the removal of the idiotic restraints in the previous edition, players are now able to fashion fully functional cult armies that are the closest to the fluff since the days of Rogue Trader. This has drawbacks though as it is only an improvement rather then a total fix. These drawbacks include units given the mark of a god through an icon not gaining fearlessness. This does not make sense but at least it does allow units that SHOULD have been able to get the marks before but werent, the ability to get them now.

I have not seen this trend, only the opposite of it.

DantesInferno
18-04-2008, 00:13
To address one poster's concerns:


I DONT CARE that the new CSM footers are greatest of it's kind in nowadays, I want my fluffed army back, the BALANCED and themed Black Legion I ran... and no, because I LIKE Fluff I didn't mix-match all gods under one banner, instead I chose an army with more leanage towards Khorne without being completely dedicated to Khorne (ie. World Eaters)... that way I had ONE Khornate unit, and had my possessed and my Deamon Prince painted with reddish skin to show the more Khornate embrace that my army had without being complete bloodthirst nutcases who all really belong in a psych ward ;)

And yeah, the army list is &(%@£$%¤#"! boring now AND I have to dump all my *******' fluff, SHOULD redo my entire *******' army's theme, and basically start from scratch with a 4500p army... Where's the sense in that!?

Can you explain how exactly the new Codex is forcing you to redo your army's theme?

The new book is actually the first Chaos Codex to allow people to take units dedicated towards a specific god without becoming full-on Cult units. For instance, you can now take Khorne-leaning Marines, Raptors, Bikers, Havocs and so on who aren't Berzerkers.

While there are some valid criticisms of the new Codex, you seem to be complaining about something that has quite obviously improved.

malisteen
18-04-2008, 00:33
I didn't reply to Muller, mostly because I didn't understand his problem either, the new book seems much better suited to the list he seems to be describing.

Then again, that probably just means I didn't understand his description.


I know the 4e book in some ways represents my own Black Legion much better then the old book: focus on close range firefights and assaults over long range combat? check. Daemons as expendible fodder? check. Mix of cult units under an undivided commander? Easier then 3.5, given that icons don't change force org slots and cult units are all troop choices. Deep striking terminators? Aggressively priced for the first time since 3.0. Possessed? Well, they're in the list. Abaddon? A real jaw dropper, though too expensive for games under APO sizes (as is only appropriate).

What complaints I do have are mostly balance issues (lash, possessed, spawn, etc), and a lack of some of the bells & whistles that other recent codeces have recieved. And though I can see why they did what they did with daemons, I still don't agree with it. I think it's a mistake to have the same models be two completely different units in two different armies. Are those daemons in the apocalypse game bloodletters or lesser daemons? Meh.

Grand Master Raziel
18-04-2008, 03:15
There's an old adage "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." This often refers to people complaining about a problem enough that the problem gets solved.

Perhaps, but complaining to us folks out here on teh intarwebs isn't doing you a lick of good. If you really want your opinions to be heard somewhere where it might actually effect future GW releases, commit your thoughts to paper and mail them to the following address:

Jervis Johnson
c/o White Dwarf Design Studio
Games Workshop
Willow Road
Nottingham NG7 2WS
United Kingdom

If you're going to take the time to enumerate what you think is wrong with Codex: Chaos Space Marines (or any 40K army, for that matter), might as well send it to where it'll do the most good (or bad, or ugly).

AdmiralDick
18-04-2008, 11:07
whilst i totally agree with you, Grand Master Raziel, because this thread isn't about what people don't like about the new Codex, its about what armies people are playing at the moment, i can't help but feel there are people on the otherside of the discussion that aren't helping either.

there are clearly players who feel let down by GW and when they try to find some support amongst other players and clarity on the issues, they are often met with derision and abuse. although there is nothing that forces anyone to participate in threads that run on this forum, some people seem to feel compelled to comment in discussions that they have no interest in, if only to say how little interest they have in the discussion. and that's almost certainly why anti-Codex: CSM threads have run on so long. people want to vent there frustration, in a pefectly reasonable fashion, by discussing the book and how they feel it isn't what they want, and yet they can never do it satisfactorily because such threads are universally interupted by people telling them, not [that they shouldn't dislike the book, but that they shouldn't even be discussing it. such attempts to 'deaden the noise' only suffice to make it louder, and now threads that have little to do with it become filled with such discussion, as is evident by this thread.

back on topic though, does anyone want to sum up what sort of patterns people in this thread are seeing in Chaos Armies? perhaps we should be taking a more 'scientific' approach to working out trends, as it can end up being very subjective otherwise. if you know a Chaos Space Marine Player, who uses the current rulebook, what does he/she take in his/her force? if you know more than one army, rather than collating, can you list them all? that way we really see what people are seeing and not just what they think they are seeing.


I have not seen this trend, only the opposite of it.

potentially interesting; what is everyone else seeing? do you know armies that are taking a wider variety of Cult Troops and Iconed/Marked units? is it about the same as before? or is it less?

EVIL INC
18-04-2008, 11:30
Well, there's another truth in that old adage. And that would be, "With so many people are complaining, maybe there is something wrong."...

Mostly, it really comes down to what they've done to daemons for me. The divergence between "Chaos Marines w/ summoned daemons" and "Chaos Daemons" while fine for Apocalypse, really blows for Tournament play.

And while I don't particularily care much for legion armies, the removal of them would **** me off if I played them. So even though I laughed at first, I empathize now.

Not everyone who posts here knows that there have been topics about this already. Nor should they be expected to know, nor expected to be silent about their frustration. Last time I checked, this was a forum about Warhammer 40k, and this would be the place to discuss such things.
It is actually a small minority who are complaining. They just happen to be a very vocal minority. If you read through the threads, you will find that it is only a few who complain. They just post a lot. If you look at the poll we had on the subject, you will see by the votes that the general concensus shows that it is only a vocal minority who dont like the new codex.
Daemons, Yes, I can see how someone would be frustraded at the change of daemons if they relied on the daemon bomb to play. Having daemons in the codex is ok, but not really fluffy at all and too easily abused as was shown in the overflow of daemonbomb armies. Pulling the teeth from those was a way to do that. Personally, I would have preferred having all daemons lumped into an entirely different section of the FOC and make them a 0-1 choice overall. That would have left the daemons as they were but limited thier use.
Legions were not left out, they are now more playable then they have been since RT days. They just rely on us to have enough knowledge of them to make thier armies ourselves depending on which version of the fluff we prefer.
You are right, the OP did not neccessarily know how many times this has been brought up. We should take it easy on him/her.

AdmiralDick, your question is a good one. If you look at my post that Skirnak quoted, you will see that he did not quote the entire section which gives it a wrong impression. I have seen an equal number of players who have rejoiced in being able to make legion armies that are true to the fluff they prefer now and are going hog wild doing it. Likewise (as I also said in the quoted post), I have seen an equal number of people who are ignoring the fluff and mix/matching the "cults" in ways that go against the fluff or in ways that match the fluff of the black legion, just using different paint schemes. I see it that it should have made both sides happy as they can now have thier cake and eat it too.

MrBigMr
18-04-2008, 11:53
there are clearly players who feel let down by GW and when they try to find some support amongst other players and clarity on the issues, they are often met with derision and abuse. although there is nothing that forces anyone to participate in threads that run on this forum, some people seem to feel compelled to comment in discussions that they have no interest in, if only to say how little interest they have in the discussion. and that's almost certainly why anti-Codex: CSM threads have run on so long. people want to vent there frustration, in a pefectly reasonable fashion, by discussing the book and how they feel it isn't what they want, and yet they can never do it satisfactorily because such threads are universally interupted by people telling them, not [that they shouldn't dislike the book, but that they shouldn't even be discussing it. such attempts to 'deaden the noise' only suffice to make it louder, and now threads that have little to do with it become filled with such discussion, as is evident by this thread.
Seconded.

I know at least I get out of order sometimes (But this ain't the army, so you can't push me around anymore. Sir...). I just liked the old book and get a little upset when people just claim you to be either a stupid noob or a powerplayer for liking the old one.

If I want my feelings negated and played down, I'd hang out with my friends, thank you very much.

The book surely is as good as any (new) codex and has all sorts of nifty things, which is what it seems we should be talking about, right?


back on topic though, does anyone want to sum up what sort of patterns people in this thread are seeing in Chaos Armies? perhaps we should be taking a more 'scientific' approach to working out trends, as it can end up being very subjective otherwise. if you know a Chaos Space Marine Player, who uses the current rulebook, what does he/she take in his/her force? if you know more than one army, rather than collating, can you list them all? that way we really see what people are seeing and not just what they think they are seeing.
I've seen Tzeentch armies on the rise. 4+ Inv. save terminators, possessed and thousand sons, along with AP3 bolts makes things interesting. Also Plague Marines have been popular with the high T and No Pain.

I've seen people using different units in mono-god armies, like "these are like super crazy Slaanesh marines (counts as Khorne berzerkers)." Not to forget super Khorne daemon with a whip and counting as a Slaanesh DP.

It's just something I don't like when it comes from conversions to an official part of things. I've always preferred logical counting, such as a meltagun as a Tau fusion blaster in a Gue'vesa army or something that matchest the rules. But giving your marines lasguns and calling them super boosted hellguns just doesn't really float my boat. If you have to explain it with fluff, things get a little complicated for comfort. TT should be fun, not an army interview.

...
See, here I go again.
I need someone in my life to bitch to...

Skirnak
18-04-2008, 12:38
AdmiralDick, your question is a good one. If you look at my post that Skirnak quoted, you will see that he did not quote the entire section which gives it a wrong impression. I have seen an equal number of players who have rejoiced in being able to make legion armies that are true to the fluff they prefer now and are going hog wild doing it. Likewise (as I also said in the quoted post), I have seen an equal number of people who are ignoring the fluff and mix/matching the "cults" in ways that go against the fluff or in ways that match the fluff of the black legion, just using different paint schemes. I see it that it should have made both sides happy as they can now have thier cake and eat it too.

How did I give it the wrong impression? You said there were more cult armies because you believe they can be better represented, I disagreed that was the case. What did I miss that was relevant to that point?

I wanted to back up my statement with reasons why there are less cult legion armies, but AdmiralDick's post outlines why I am reluctant to point out that I have been denied my cake.

EVIL INC
18-04-2008, 12:45
I've seen people using different units in mono-god armies, like "these are like super crazy Slaanesh marines (counts as Khorne berzerkers)." Not to forget super Khorne daemon with a whip and counting as a Slaanesh DP.

It's just something I don't like when it comes from conversions to an official part of things. I've always preferred logical counting, such as a meltagun as a Tau fusion blaster in a Gue'vesa army or something that matchest the rules. But giving your marines lasguns and calling them super boosted hellguns just doesn't really float my boat. If you have to explain it with fluff, things get a little complicated for comfort. TT should be fun, not an army interview.

I totally agree with you there. I am not big on mixing marks in a single army and am not sure how I feel about the "super crazy slaanesh marines counting as khorne berserkers. I would day that if your going to do that, make a real effort to make them look berserkerish. Not to say I wouldnt play against them, just what I would prefer to see.
The lasguns/hellguns, I also agree. How hard is it to put a backpack on the and run a "wire" from the gun to the backpack?
I used to have a roommate who frustrated the crap out of me...*knock knock* "Hey Murph, I got a question. See, I dont think these missile launchers look good as missile launchers as they do las cannons. Is it all right if I use them as las cannons?"
Me- "Sure, go ahead" (My then gf and I were "occupied" in my room.)
5 minutes go by...
*knock knock* "Hey Murph"
Me- "yeah"
"These las cannons look cool, but I like think it would be cool if I were to use them as autocannons. I see them shooting out small bullets that do lots of damage. Is it all right if I use them as autocannons?"
Me- "Yeah sure"
5 minutes later...
*Knock knock*" "hey Murph, These heavy bolters loodont look right as heavy bolters. See I picture that big clip as having small missiles. Is it all right if I use them as missile launchers?"
me- "yeah yeah, what ever you want man"
5 minutes later...
*knock knock* "Hey Murph, I got these neat eldar models that I think would make great assault marines. Would it be.."
Me- "LOOK, I AM BUSY IN HERE!!! use the missile launchers as missile launchers, las cannons as las cannons and NO you CANT use eldar as marines! GIVE ME SOME @$#%$@# PEACE AND QUIET!!!"

I crap you not, we really DID have that conversation.


How did I give it the wrong impression? You said there were more cult armies because you believe they can be better represented, I disagreed that was the case. What did I miss that was relevant to that point?

I wanted to back up my statement with reasons why there are less cult legion armies, but AdmiralDick's post outlines why I am reluctant to point out that I have been denied my cake.
Your quote made it appear that legion armies were the only trend I had seen. I had already pointed out that that was only ONE of the trends I had seen. I had also seen other trends such as the opposite one to the one I mentioned that you quoted.
I apologize if I misinterpreted your post.

MrBigMr
18-04-2008, 14:02
I totally agree with you there. I am not big on mixing marks in a single army and am not sure how I feel about the "super crazy slaanesh marines counting as khorne berserkers. I would day that if your going to do that, make a real effort to make them look berserkerish. Not to say I wouldnt play against them, just what I would prefer to see.
Imagine how frustrating it was when the daemon codex ended up having about 1 choice per slot per god. Mono-god armies are possible, but they're nothing compared to daemon circuses. And Homie ain't playing that. My Slaanesh daemons will stay 100% Slaanesh and all female. No "über 'ard Slaanesh daemons counts as bloodlettes" or anything.

I somehow feel like doing a pure male Slaanesh army (male daemonettes with swords = bloodlettes, male daemonettes in bright colours = horrors, really cute male daemonettes = daemonettes) with the 40K version just as a protest. Would go well with the big daemon with a groin cannon that I'm doing as a Soulgrinder.

That army would have more Tom, dick and Harry than a gay pride parade.


The lasguns/hellguns, I also agree. How hard is it to put a backpack on the and run a "wire" from the gun to the backpack?
It's not just that, just that there are no S4 AP5 lasguns out there. It would still mount up to nothing but "it's a supercharged lasgun with atomic batteries and a muzzle the size of Texas".

But that's just me. I won't stop anyone from doing it nor will it prevent me from playing anyone, I'm just not going to go for it.

malisteen
18-04-2008, 15:00
For my own personal opinion - I support any change that encourages mixed marks. The forces of chaos are joined in ever shifting alliances - not a set of 5 perfectly segregated, never mixing groups. That isn't very chaotic, and it results in codeces that just don't work.

If they were going to do it that way, they should have made 5 separate codeces, one for each god, plus one for undivided. But that would be too many codeces. Since 5 codex chaos just isn't viable, emphasis on shifting alliances and mixed armies and warbands are just the way it has to go, as far as I can tell.

Single god CSM armies are still possible, as are undivided armies (I've had quite a bit of success with my own all-undivided Black Legion). I personally miss cult terminator and hero options, and feel that daemons don't really have enough to stand on their own as a codex, and aligned daemons should have stayed in the CSM list, if perhaps in a toned down form.


As I've said many times, I don't think the current chaos book is up to par with other recent codeces, whether in quality of balance or quality of doo-dads. It's not great. It is workable. If you can play apocalypse games, you can get a pretty good imitation of the old legion lists (particularly now that new datasheets are making cult terminators available again - so far EC and TS have formations for such)

Vaktathi
18-04-2008, 16:21
there are clearly players who feel let down by GW and when they try to find some support amongst other players and clarity on the issues, they are often met with derision and abuse. although there is nothing that forces anyone to participate in threads that run on this forum, some people seem to feel compelled to comment in discussions that they have no interest in, if only to say how little interest they have in the discussion. and that's almost certainly why anti-Codex: CSM threads have run on so long. people want to vent there frustration, in a pefectly reasonable fashion, by discussing the book and how they feel it isn't what they want, and yet they can never do it satisfactorily because such threads are universally interupted by people telling them, not [that they shouldn't dislike the book, but that they shouldn't even be discussing it. such attempts to 'deaden the noise' only suffice to make it louder, and now threads that have little to do with it become filled with such discussion, as is evident by this thread. I very much agree with you here, and I think more of this thread has been people complaining about the complaining over the CSM codex rather than people actually complaining about the CSM codex.





It is actually a small minority who are complaining. They just happen to be a very vocal minority. If you read through the threads, you will find that it is only a few who complain. From what I see at the actual stores I've played at, this is not my experience. There has generally been a net decrease in Chaos players (usually in favor of another army they already have) and of those that still play, not all of us think the codex is terrible, just not any better than mediocre at best. Most people would have liked to see real Legion sublists (it's not impossible to make balanced sublists, GW just sucks at it) and an actual Renegades list, not just a weird gooey average that *can* do everything, but does none of it well. The army list by itself is fine if one has no experience with Chaos past the new codex and isn't looking at fluff, although its definitely still very cookie-cutter. When it comes to fluff though, both in reading material and it's reflection in the army list, it falls short.


If you look at the poll we had on the subject, you will see by the votes that the general concensus shows that it is only a vocal minority who dont like the new codex. Not trying to be a jerk here, but internet forum polls aren't exactly know for being the true arbiter of accurate, honest and scientific measurement. If I recall we've had multiple such polls, with varied results.



I have seen an equal number of players who have rejoiced in being able to make legion armies that are true to the fluff they prefer now and are going hog wild doing it. I think just about everyone I've played with in stores and the majority opinion I've seen online (not just on Warseer that is) would say the opposite, or at the very least would not say the new book is *more* fluffy than the last one when it comes to Legions. I'm honestly not seeing how they are more fluffy with the new book than the old one, and I've definitely seen a marked increase in armies that pay no attempt to mind fluff at all.

Coasty
18-04-2008, 17:04
...there is no right or wrong about a personal opinion.

Oooooh, that is really, really not true.

If it were my opinion that the moon were made of old socks, would it be right? Of course not; it is and always will be total ********. Just being someone's opinion lends an idea no extra weight whatsoever. Most people's opinions on most things are probably completely wrong, and they should be informed as soon as it becomes obvious, otherwise we'll end up living in a country where people ban things just because they're 'wrong' in their opinion. Actually, it may be a bit late for that...

Anyway, as far as Codex: Spikeyboyz goes, if you don't like the new one, see if your opponents will let you use the old one. It's what the GF and I plan to do with C:SM if we don't like the next one. I'm sure GW won't actually come 'round and break your legs for it.

ml2sjw
18-04-2008, 17:52
wow did not see that lot coming.....

well having had a bit more of a look the codex doesn't seem to bad although so hear are my first few thoughts

1. hmm how exactly have cult armies got weaker? as in the original concept of guys with mark of (take your pick) not just cult troops used in isolation, Nurgle looks strong as hell, although i am waiting to see someone model some nurgle raptors.. Slanesh same fire-power as ever with guys who are essentially identical to the old .Khorne, never was the most blananced but you can happily add Raptors etc complete with the MOK and not feel to bad at all. and as for thousand suns, far far far more powerful.

2. I like the fact that you can once again have a cult army with additions with the correct marks whilst not hamstringing yourself tactically.

3. Deamons, ok i miss them but most people didn't use that many varieties of daemon back when i was still playing, come on fess up who was the last person to see flesh hound on the table top, or in fact anything but a blood letter or a deamonette? These new cannon fodder deamons do seem to fit well with the idea of CSM using Deamons as fodder as they see themselves as better than them. A little more variety would have been nice, maybe even a random table of abilites...... But then people wouldn't like that idea.

4. CSM back to having limited weapons by squad size a pain but hey back to the old days , Chosen are back to being the original chaos vets so now my old squads can come back into the fold as Chosen rather than being supped up troop choices

5.Terminators ok they got cheaper, three man squads look like a giggle hmm my elites slot is going to be very full these days

6. Deathguard ok possibly a little two good, they always have been some of the best defensive troops in the game but stick them in cover on an objective and one squad will probably be able to hold off an entire army. Also odd that they are free from special weapons

7. Everyone carrying bolt pistols, again back to the good old days where units would draw pistols and engage just before charging in sadly grenades don't work the way they used to so no more going in with grenades to annihilate a nid swarm like the good old days

ml2sjw
18-04-2008, 18:02
Quick mess around list i created what do people think?

Daemon Prince with Wings

8 Chosen 2 plasma guns 1 melta gun, one aspiring champion with power weapon

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)

8 Plague Marines

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Obliterators

Lord Inquisitor
18-04-2008, 18:24
Looks okay. Going to make your Daemon Prince a psyker?

Personally, I think combi-plasma or combi-melta is better than combi-flamer on the terminators. Are you going to take some icons to use as teleport homers for the terminators?

Special weapons (plasma?) on the Plague Marines?

Again, flamers not so hot (pun intended) on the CSM squads if they're going to be sitting back and shooting.

With the havocs I would put two plasma in one squad and two lascannon in the other. The first squad can move the second can lend coving fire.

You seem to lack a great deal of anti-tank (some more meltas in there, for starters) and lack mobility. A bunch of rhinos, especially for the Plague Marines and the havocs with plasma, would be a great idea. Frankly, if you can afford it, I'd give every squad apart from the chosen a rhino. Only 35 points a squad!

EVIL INC
18-04-2008, 18:33
Vaktathi, I have been playing chaos since the days of Rogue Trader. For this past christmas, my fiance got me a gaurd company deal and I have been working on building that army up and playing it. So I guess you could say that I have stopped playing chaos and switched to another army. Well, I have not, I have just finally been able to afford a second army that I have always wanted but never been able to. With the apoc deals, MANY players were allowed to start new armies and I will admit it, although I love my chaos army, models and even find the new codex to be ok (good but a far cry from perfect), I am playing my gaurd exclusively now that I have enough put together and painted to use. In essense, I would not pin the influx of new armies in peoples models cases to the chaos codex. I know that in my own case and at least several others I know of, it is a matter of economics and finally having a new army to play that has led to my chaos army seeing less and less action of late.
Not saying that that is the only reason, just saying that the new chaos codex is the only reason either.
I am also basing my guess as to how welcome the new codex is based on outside "real life" gaming groups and clubs in addition to the several online communities where I read posts. I understand that different gaming groups will have differing opinions (usually based on the age of the members and length of time they have been playing).


Quick mess around list i created what do people think?

Daemon Prince with Wings

8 Chosen 2 plasma guns 1 melta gun, one aspiring champion with power weapon

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)

8 Plague Marines

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Obliterators

Offhand,
I would consolidate the termies into a single unit of 5
Your trooper units, I would probobly use missile launchers instead of AC but that is just my personal preference as they make better hole punchers and ap3 is better for the meq armies. Flamers..Meh, if you are leaving them back to "snipe" the flamers wont get into range of being used. The points would likely be better used on plasma or no special weapons.
Havocs, the special and heavy weapons cost more for them so if your only taking one in the unit, you could just as well use a troops unit and get them for less. I would consoldate those units into a single one with a full loadout of heavy weapons for greater fire concentration.
Obliterators...they are best used in units in my opinion and single ones get picked off swiftly.

malisteen
18-04-2008, 18:48
I reccomend 1 heavy flamer/2 combi meltas/1 power fist or 3 combi plasmas/1 power fist for 3-man deep striking termie squads. The former is more versatile, the latter has a bigger impact on the ubiquitous marines. either way, the units are cheap and good. I don't reccomend reapers on deep striking squads thanks to the points cost. They're something more for footslogging squads, imo, where they'd be taken more for their range then anything else.

Also, buy some icons for your squads to provide summoning points for your terminators. The IoCG is useful and affordable.

Next, the basic equipment of CSMs really encourages you to use them up close. I reccomend assault weapons (meltas & flamers), rhinoes, and champions with either pwep & meltabomb or pfist. Get them in close, where their rapid firing bolters and their extra close combat attacks can really put the hurt on the enemy. I'd also buy the transport for your plague marines, for the same reasons.


But that's just me. Other then that, looks pretty good.

On a side note: While I'm glad you've come to accept the new book, don't get too close-minded in your support of the 4e codex. Though I agree that its more workable then some say, there are legitimate gripes, and there are armies from the 3.5 book that suffer mightily (including entirely uncheesy lists such as EC noise-heavy armies). Even though you or I might find the list suits our needs just fine, it doesn't help to tell others they're wrong to be unhappy with it - that just provokes deeper divides and more arguements.

Vaktathi
18-04-2008, 19:10
Quick mess around list i created what do people think?

Daemon Prince with Wings Any Marks or Powers?



8 Chosen 2 plasma guns 1 melta gun, one aspiring champion with power weapon

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)

3 Terminators Combi-flamer Reaper Autocannon (x1)
Looks fine, although I'd try and replace the Reaper with Combi-weapons if you can if you are only running 3 in each squad.



8 Plague Marines

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

10 Chaos Space Marines Flamer (x1); Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
Looks fine



6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

6 Havocs Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

1 Obliterators Mmm...this is a really inefficient setup, you could probably squeeze in 5 oblits for the price of what you have there, and it would run far better, I'd probably just use these guys as Troops squads and bulk up your troops instead, maybe convert some of those terminators with some bits to make Oblits?

AdmiralDick
18-04-2008, 20:04
I've seen people using different units in mono-god armies, like "these are like super crazy Slaanesh marines (counts as Khorne berzerkers)." Not to forget super Khorne daemon with a whip and counting as a Slaanesh DP.

It's just something I don't like when it comes from conversions to an official part of things. I've always preferred logical counting, such as a meltagun as a Tau fusion blaster in a Gue'vesa army or something that matchest the rules. But giving your marines lasguns and calling them super boosted hellguns just doesn't really float my boat. If you have to explain it with fluff, things get a little complicated for comfort. TT should be fun, not an army interview.

i think that one of the contributing factors to that is the near total lack of thematic mechanics in GW games. there is little that unifies like things in the game, meaning that there is no real reason not to mix (nothing acts 'out of character' because there is no character, and there is nothing that can be seen to be weakening of the theme). many other TTBG use such mechanics to link things, but beyond the rather scant connection of +1T for Nurgle followers there isn't much that makes similar units mechanically similar (this is particularly apparent for Tzeentchen units). its also true of inter-army units, such as HQ choices. Psykers and Engineers are relatively weakly connected, but Religious leaders and 'generic' leaders have basically nothing in common with one another, leading you to question what they are at all.

its not just true of units. what connects las weapons? its not as if all plasma weapons get hot either.

stronger thematic mechanics would bind like things together, making it less acceptable (and giving you less reason) to mix things unrelated in the background for game play boosts.


wow did not see that lot coming.....

wow. you really have been out of the picture a while then.


1. hmm how exactly have cult armies got weaker?

that depends entirely on what you are conparing them to. for the most part, in comparison to basic 'troopt' units of cult marines from the previous codex they have all improved in overall ability.

beyond that comparison they don't fair quite so well. you can't have Plague Marine termies, Noise Marine havocs, Bezerker bikers or Thousand Son chosen, which is one of the biggest single blows to the whole codex. i can see why the change was made (it would have been nigh on impossible to form a balanced list that was so mutable that you could take any combination of any units upgraded to any of the different cults and their respective mechanics, so instead the whole thing had to be chopped), but with that change, the way the 'cult' armies worked has also changed.

if i wanted to take an all Slaaneshi army (for example) rather than being a force that works around the mechanics of Noise Marines (not to mention the daemons), its a generic CSM army, with the +1 I (which honestly doesn't change are great deal in comparison to an undivided army that doesn't have +1) and a larger than average percentage of Noise Marines in the troops choices. whilst it might seem like a slight differnce, it is really quite big when it actually comes to playing.

as for the list you've drawn up, give us a rundown of what you think each unit is going to achieve in an 'average' battle. i always find it easier to give constructive criticism when i know i'm trying to head in the same direction as the person that asked for it.

Sarevok
18-04-2008, 20:04
Perhaps, but complaining to us folks out here on teh intarwebs isn't doing you a lick of good. If you really want your opinions to be heard somewhere where it might actually effect future GW releases, commit your thoughts to paper and mail them to the following address:

Jervis Johnson
c/o White Dwarf Design Studio
Games Workshop
Willow Road
Nottingham NG7 2WS
United Kingdom

If you're going to take the time to enumerate what you think is wrong with Codex: Chaos Space Marines (or any 40K army, for that matter), might as well send it to where it'll do the most good (or bad, or ugly).

Jervis should be going out of his way to get customer feedback. The customer shouldn't have to go out of their way to give feedback to him.

Not that he cares too much what we think, he's extremely stubborn.

GW should be embracing the internet and new technology instead of fighting against it all the time.

The best bet is to just STOP BUYING. Sooner or later Jervis will have to be removed if his grand plan isn't working.

EVIL INC
18-04-2008, 20:21
AdmiralDick, I see where you are coming from. To me, this is where the fluff and imagery comes in. While mechanically, there is not that much difference, if you look at the fluff and imagery of the game, you will see that the differences become much greater. GW seems to have gotten away from that and gone more towards an all out win or lose game instead of the play for fun game style. I find that players who have themed armies that are well painted/converted and have a full background for thier army, I find to be more fun opponants. To help in this, I too feel that mechanically, there should be more differences and that these differences should be based on the fluff and internal history of the game.

MrBigMr
18-04-2008, 21:10
The best bet is to just STOP BUYING. Sooner or later Jervis will have to be removed if his grand plan isn't working.
Well, seeing as apart from about 20 metal daemonettes and a dozen mounted ones, I haven't spent a dime more on GW Chaos models and I'm fielding 2 armies at the moment (3rd one coming once the Daemon codex arrives). My 40K Chaos army uses loyalist models because they have less of a "Chaosy" look (spikes and arrows and faces and the general "corrupt look" that I have when it comes to evil) and my WHFB daemon legion has plenty of 3rd party models.


AdmiralDick, I see where you are coming from. To me, this is where the fluff and imagery comes in. While mechanically, there is not that much difference, if you look at the fluff and imagery of the game, you will see that the differences become much greater. GW seems to have gotten away from that and gone more towards an all out win or lose game instead of the play for fun game style. I find that players who have themed armies that are well painted/converted and have a full background for thier army, I find to be more fun opponants. To help in this, I too feel that mechanically, there should be more differences and that these differences should be based on the fluff and internal history of the game.
*drops to his knees before EVIL INC and averts his eyes*
My liege!

AdmiralDick
21-04-2008, 13:34
AdmiralDick, I see where you are coming from. To me, this is where the fluff and imagery comes in. While mechanically, there is not that much difference, if you look at the fluff and imagery of the game, you will see that the differences become much greater.

i whole heartedly agree with you. in a perfect world, people will base their armies around the fiction of game, and that fiction would be reflected in the rules. sadly we don't live in such a perfect world.

someone said before that background=/=rules and rules=/=background, but that is not quite true. while simply writing something into the background won't make it happen on the table top, the reverse is not quite so straight forward. if the rules for Dark Eldar make them sluggish and tough in comparison to other armies, then no matter how many times i claim that they are a lightning quick raiding force they won't be that in peoples minds. rules really do have an impact on background (even if we'd prefer the relationship to be vice versa).

whilst it would be good if the fictional background of the game help to define armies, the simple truth of the matter is that when the rubber hits the road and people play the game (and lets face it that is when most players come into contact with the background) it is actually the mechanics of the game that help define what an army is or isn't.

personally, i think that GW could do a better job of guiding the background with the rules (i.e. having the rules match up with the what they wanted the background to be in the first place).