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savage_&_proud_of_it
16-04-2008, 18:10
i have looked at what most people would put in a SAD list (4 warlock engineers, 3 x 20 clanrats with ratling guns, many jezziels and 2 warp lightening cannons) can someone tell me why it is so hard to beat, as i can see some easy tactics to beating them

thankyou for replying in advance

theunwantedbeing
16-04-2008, 18:20
Well..
Jezzails hitting you hurts, things hit by them tend to just plain die. Regardless of what they are.
Warlock engineer's can easily cast the 2d6 level warplightning several times per turn.
You arent too likely to stop that all that often.

Care to share these easy ways of beating the SAD list?
(note I have no trouble flattening SAD lists..I'm merely curious as to how you believe you can easily defeat them)

Arguleon-veq
16-04-2008, 18:35
Giving your characters, Handguns/Crossbows goes a long way in stunting those weapon teams so you dont have to waste a whole unit firing on them.

Sterling
16-04-2008, 18:40
as an ogre player, it's because my tyrant and butchers gets sniped, then every dead ogre is a panic test. when i finally do get close, I end up in combat with the dang slave and still getting popped by jezzails, if I manage not to bounce because of static combat res. I just can't pass enough panic tests after I lose they tyrant.

I have seen skaven SADs get beat... a lot, actually. It's usually to someone who either A) shoots back better or B) gets over or around the slaves.

Bret RAF, BoC ambushing armies, Empire-Goblin-Dwarf war machine lines will usually beat Skaven SAD, but they need to be run by someone that knows what they are doing.

I think the main problem with SAD armies (and gunlines in general) is that most of the players of WHFB view it as a very, very complex and free-form chess game in the movement phase, with a lot less emphesis placed on the math of dice-rolling. SAD armies remove that... they sit there and you either come to them or sit back and return fire. It eliminates a lot of the chess game we love and turns it into static 40K.

W0lf
16-04-2008, 18:41
Magic missile jezzails unitll they need a panic check.
Warp lightning cannons must flee if you charge them reguardless if your in range or not... get in LOS.
Shoot ratling guns before they fire.
Concentrate fire on one unit till it needs a panic check then move to another.

SAD is pretty easy to beat tbh. Half the time the warlocks roll 1's or hits or miscast and kill themselves.

TIZNE
16-04-2008, 18:52
An all-around army has problems with an army that is "not balanced".
By "not balanced" I do not mean overpowered, but rather, that it fields mostly one kind of troop to maximize some strength in his army, in this case gunfire.

I think that in order to take out a "not balanced" army, you have to use yourself a not balanced one, that tips to counter a gunline.
I think that many flyers and fast troops will do well, specially if screened with cheap units and terrain.
Or otherwise, remain out of their range and claim quarters. Or out-range them.

Latro
16-04-2008, 19:06
SAD is pretty easy to beat tbh. Half the time the warlocks roll 1's or hits or miscast and kill themselves.

Is that a pure super SAD army played by a competent player you're talking about? I had the pleasuer of facing one with my Dwarfs ... :(

Grey Seer
3 Warlocks Engineers

3x 25 Clanrats + Ratling Guns
3x 10 Jezzails
2x Warplightning Cannon

At the end of turn four he had destroyed 2 fully ranked units of Dwarf Warriors, one fully ranked unit of Hammerers, three Bolt Throwers, one Gyrocopter and one Dragon Slayer ... and reduced two units of Thunderers to roughly half strength.

- Charge the Warlightning Cannons? ... with what? Unless you have something with special deployment that can charge right away everything that gets near will simply be shot to pieces by concentrated firepower.

- Snipe the Ratling Guns? ... I did, but only because he made the mistake of giving me the opportunity while he didn't need to. Not that it matters much ... everything still gets shot.

- Panic the Jezzails? ... good luck. They have the benefits of being skirmishers, then you need to wound and then they get a pretty decent save. Even my Thunderers (while they lasted) had trouble causing a test. They will simply outshoot you ... fast.

- Magic might be possible ... but playing heavy magic themselves gives them a pretty good magic defence as well. And when the scrolls finally run out, there not much left to take advantage of that.


I'm not getting into the unbalanced/overpowered/cheese debate, but claiming that they're an easy kill makes me wonder if you ever played against a real SAD army. You either need to be fielding one of the few anti-SAD lists or be incredibly lucky, if not ... you're dead (and in all cases it's usually a boring game).


:cool:

Lordmonkey
16-04-2008, 19:10
Skaven SAD armies are not difficult to defeat. To a new player, they are hell, and will probably put them off the game altogether. To an experience veteran, they are beatable so long as you use a balanced force.

Warp lightning. 2d6 Strength 5 hits is plain stupid, a very overpowered spell for a 9+ cast. It's very possible to build an army that fires this off four times per turn on 3 dice each - thats a likely 8d6 str 5 hits per turn on your army. With a balanced list, the best counter to this tactic is to simply sit back out of range, hugging your board edge - 24" isnt that far, which means he will be forced to advance, exposing his rear to fast moving units. Shoot him with artillery, raise lots of troops if you are undead, or simply pepper him with rank and file shooting. Use terrain to sneak around his flanks - if you coordinate it right, he will get one round of nightmarish shooting (which is where the dispel scrolls come in handy) before you flank charge him with a unit of cavalry.

The ratling guns are an issue, but not if you shoot them first! They have a relatively short range - and skaven fail in close combat. Remove their support weapon first with shooting/magic, and the regiment will fall.

The Warp lightning cannon is weak IMO. It will get one turn of (unreliable) shooting before your flyers/fast cavalry (You know, those fast support units that every army should have?) take it down - easy VP's right there.

One thing to remember is that most Skaven SAD players, especially the ones that play in GW stores, like to use boards with little to no terrain. That's a huge handicap to you right there. The power of the Skaven SAD is drastically reduced when you bring terrain into consideration - a factor that most SAD players 'forget' to consider :)

Felworth
16-04-2008, 19:11
SAD is pretty easy to beat tbh. Half the time the warlocks roll 1's or hits or miscast and kill themselves.


So... as long as my opponent's Grey Seer and trio of Engineers roll super badly I should be able to beat them fairly easily?

Fantastic.


Anywho, its just bothersome watching a 30 strong Orc mob cut down to handful of guys every magic phase. Sure, the rest of my army is safe for another turn to get closer but they can just march backwards while still knocking out my main line units. That 24 inch range is an absolute killing zone.


Hmm, just noticed most advice about anti-SAD so far involves being more shooty then said shooty army.

Malorian
16-04-2008, 19:16
Warp lightning cannons must flee if you charge them reguardless if your in range or not... get in LOS.

This is very grey and most players won't let you do this. The book states you can't declare unreasonable charges, and since it's imposible to define what's reasonable this is hard to control.

(This came up when I used to make impossible charges with my knights errant when I just needed them to be immune to psych for a turn.)

As has been said, SAD armies just shoot the hell out of you and if you are an army that doesn't have a lot of magic or fire power then you're in trouble.

Shamfrit
16-04-2008, 19:25
The other easy way to get around the Cannon issue: if a wood is close enough to your line, drive it straight in, yes, it takes D6 S6 hits, but that's something it can easily, easily survive and then once it's in there - it can fire with relative safety - and your opponent has to sacrifice a unit for a good 3 turns to deal with it.

Sterling
16-04-2008, 19:55
Warp lightning cannons must flee if you charge them reguardless if your in range or not... get in LOS.
Official FAQ, page 2, first question under "Charging"
Declaring a charge you know cannot be completed is cheating.

Mercules
16-04-2008, 20:21
Magic missile jezzails unitll they need a panic check.

Awesome... Kill 36" range 360 Deg LoS unit with Magic Missles that are nearly all 24" or less range against a 7 dispel dice list. :rolleyes:



Warp lightning cannons must flee if you charge them reguardless if your in range or not... get in LOS.
Illegal if you are not within reasonable distance to actually charge.



Shoot ratling guns before they fire.
Except more Skaven players set them up BEHIND units so the only place to gain LoS on them is somehow get past the main units or be standing right in front of them in charge range.



Concentrate fire on one unit till it needs a panic check then move to another. Excellent... I am sure HoC, BoC, and VC will take this to heart and fill out their excellent ranged units.



SAD is pretty easy to beat tbh. Half the time the warlocks roll 1's or hits or miscast and kill themselves. Half the time? Statistics would say that happens a lot less than you claim. :D



The Warp lightning cannon is weak IMO. It will get one turn of (unreliable) shooting before your flyers/fast cavalry (You know, those fast support units that every army should have?) take it down - easy VP's right there.

I'm looking through my OK book for those flyers/fast cavalry right now. I keep failing to take them somehow. :p



One thing to remember is that most Skaven SAD players, especially the ones that play in GW stores, like to use boards with little to no terrain. That's a huge handicap to you right there. The power of the Skaven SAD is drastically reduced when you bring terrain into consideration - a factor that most SAD players 'forget' to consider :)

Sort of. A Warplightning cannon with woods around it is MORE effective. Now troops have a harder time getting to it and it can still shoot out at them.

The main difficulty with SAD is not any one part. It is the OVERLAPPING fields of fire. If you move something up that outranges the Ratling Gun it will usually be cut down by the Jezzails or Warplightning. If you charge up to cut LoS from the Jezzails or Cannons with his own troops, the Ratling Guns Warplightning cut you down. If you base his unit to stop the magic/ranged he continues to shoot you.

There are very few places to hide, so you are right, that terrain is valuable, but it is just as much a risk. It does no good to set up cover if it hems you in so you have to rush into the teeth of the gunfire. Being near the board edge just means he only has to get one lucky panic to have you run off the board.

savage_&_proud_of_it
16-04-2008, 20:32
so a lot of mixed opinions

theunwantedbeing
16-04-2008, 20:32
Mercules has fair points.
Killing jezzails is not as easy as it sounds, as they can sit out of your range easily enough but still shoot you all the same.
36" is enough to hit the opposite edge of the board if they deploy on the limit of their deployment.

Warplightning really has an effective range of 34", as the guy with it can march 10" if he wishes and still cast the spell.
You'll have to be right on the back edge of the board to not get hit by it on turn 1 if the skaven players deploys up against the limit of his deployment.

Causing panic tests is all well and good but the skaven units are going to be leadership 9 for the most part...we all know how tricky dwarves are to panic and they get leadership 9, skaven in this instance are just as difficult to make panic.

The reason my dark elves do well vs SAD lists is because I have enough dice and scrolls to weather the initial couple of turns of shooting and my own bolt throwers have the range and killing power needed to remove jezzails.
Other such armies dont quite have that luxury...plus my troops are of fairly decent leadership so I dont panic so much.

Not all armies are empire with loads of hochland long rifles to snipe warlocks out of the enemy units.
And not all armies are bretonnian knights who arent bothered about being shot at.
Etc etc.

Sterling
16-04-2008, 20:36
The only hope for us Ogres is to get multiple gorgers on turn two to eat the dang cannons on OK turn three or at least draw fire away from the yhetees, who snuck up on the first turn to hide in/behind terrain with LOS to some flanks...

it takes either serious luck, tailoring your army or going with some RoR (bronzino's galloper guns or the dragonlord...)

Malorian
16-04-2008, 20:47
As long as there wasn't a hill for all those guns to hide on I'm sure my ogre list would do ok.

Even SAD has a hard time working though a screen of 120 gnoblars ; ) I just hope the gorgers take out the WLCs...

I've only played them once with my lizards and it was a slaughter. Sure he cheated as well (WLC had a misfire of 1 on the second turn and he said it was ok... next turn it did 3 wounds to my carnosaur...) but I just got slaughtered.

I didn't know before that those ratling guns auto-hit AND could stand and shoot (bye bye skinks...)

It also took 2 rounds of fire from 3 salamanders to get rid of 1 of his units of 10 jezzails. Those shields made them fairly resilient. : (

Edit: I classify skaven with dark eldar. People don't play them because they don't like the modles, but they have some real top notch lists.

Mercules
16-04-2008, 20:49
Mercules has fair points.


One of my friends has a Skaven SAD army. I am very familiar with the various ways it messes up my Ogres. :evilgrin: I have to say it is the army I end up facing more than any other simply because we tend to be around each other more often.

Heck, even his Warband 500 point limit, with limitations on taking either Warplighting Cannon or things like Weapons Teams, as well as a max 150 points for hero(es) is somewhat "shooty". Two blocks of troops, a Ratling Gun and 2 Engineers. I can't dispel all that magic despite taking a Butcher, but luckily I use a Maneater as my Commander with BoH so I can pop the Ratling Gun first turn if he actually leaves me a lane for LoS to it. Things like the HoC list are having issues with that Ratling Gun.

I must be a good friend as I suggested dropping his second unit and trading it out for Slaves and a couple Jezzails. I then came to my senses and shut up and let him talk himself out of it.

3lwap0
16-04-2008, 20:50
Something worth considering (provided your butchers/Tyrant live), is Skullmantle and a Brhamir statue that reduces leadership tests for Skaven by -1 and -3 respectively. I once had both in the same unit, and -4 on a braingobbler test is something else.

Some might complain that's too cheesy, but honestly, OK need all the help they can get. Against Skaven, it should be mandatory. If he's gonna rape you on shooting ( where you're weak), then hit him where it hurts, on leadership.

I know, it's not a SAD counter as a OK player. It's all I can think of though. *shrug*

Mercules
16-04-2008, 20:53
Yes, but then 3lwap0 you are talking about a list specifically tailored to take out Skaven/Chaos, not an all comers list. Skaven SAD can be all comers and still pretty specialized while the same can not be said of certain race's lists to take them out.

decker_cky
16-04-2008, 20:53
The targeting of ratling guns took out the extra piece that really put SAD armies potentially over the top. Now the line is really soft, where before you could depend on r.guns to tear apart anything light that got near the line. Jezzails are good, but you really need to do better with terrain if there's always a big hill to deploy multiple units on. Otherwise, LoS issues will limit them.

In 7th edition, I'd say a balanced horde skaven army is better than SaD.

Spirit
16-04-2008, 22:20
i dont see how vampires should have aproblem against this army.

As long as you are using a "fair" board (i.e 6 pieces of randomly scattered terrain) then you can jump a hellsteed vampire and raise zombies into the jezzails. Not to get into close combat, but to make them kill zombies every turn they want to shoot.

7 dispell dice is all well and good, but vampires have enough magic to handle this.

Black knights that can march through terrain? Making them both -1 to hit and un shootable exept for one turn.

scouting vampires with -3 to hit basic? Good luck hitting that with jezzails. Then he and his walking death and his battle standard charges your mages. Granted he has problems with warp lightning cannons. but again, raising zombies and vanhellsing them or using fell bats will cure almost any warp lighting rat infestation.

Malorian
16-04-2008, 22:38
Spirit: Don't forget about those auto-hitting ratling guns... I wouldn't want to scout anywhere near them... or the WLC that will just snipe him...

VC do have it a lot better though, but it's with sticking with regular troops. Who cares how much they kill with those guns. You'll just raise them again.

fubukii
16-04-2008, 22:47
i have played skaven for a long time, (several years) and i can tell you that the sad list is a weak list. You would be in much more trouble with a horde style list with Sad elements then fighting a Pure sad army.

Warlord for ld, 3 locks for magic killy, 4 blocks of clanrats 4 blocks of slaves 2 5 man night runner, 2-3 tunnel teams 9 jezzaills 2 cannons. has all the good elements of sad crossed with the hordeyness of the rats

- jezzails while scary have horrible bs and a even lower ld, unless they are shooting at large targets. they also are a hefty 20 pts each unless they are hitting knights, super expensive infantry, or large monsters they are a waste of points. Actually in most cases a equal amount of points of empire handgunners kills more models then a jezzail team. jezzails excel at killing big stuff, not a major threat to ogres, or standard infantry.

- WLC more of a threat to standard infantry and ogre models, and characters. Sometimes will get str 6 -10 and really mangle knights, does not randomize hits in combat, making a great supportive unit for your rat blocks.

- Weapon teams - horrible. If you choose not to shoot these 60pt 1 wound models you deserve to feel the fury they can unleash at close range. 1 ten man archer unit on a hill, can kill 3-4 teams before they can fire.

all in all the sad list spends to many points on guns when skaven win the game with flank charges and redirecting enemy units most better then hoping your enemy doesnt kill your ratlin gunswith a single arrow.

- fubukii

Lordmonkey
17-04-2008, 00:14
I'm looking through my OK book for those flyers/fast cavalry right now. I keep failing to take them somehow. :p

Hehe :D Sorry, I forgot to mention I was only talking about army books that were not written during an all-night GW crack session :rolleyes:

Perhaps use a Gorger? What about the hunter with his two kitties? Aren't they fast?

I can see how OK fail miserably at the claws of SAD. Their terribly poor leadership is their biggest weakness, so the panic checks hit them the hardest.

Every list should have a 'fast' unit IMO, even if small and disposable - march blocking, war machine hunting, frenzy baiting, etc... of course, it isn't always necessary if the list is min-max cheese :mad:


Sort of. A Warplightning cannon with woods around it is MORE effective. Now troops have a harder time getting to it and it can still shoot out at them.

True. Then again, the friendly units advancing behind the trees will be covered by everything else. One (two?) cannons will not be a problem for several units, unless you manage to line them up for the cannon.


The main difficulty with SAD is not any one part. It is the OVERLAPPING fields of fire. If you move something up that outranges the Ratling Gun it will usually be cut down by the Jezzails or Warplightning. If you charge up to cut LoS from the Jezzails or Cannons with his own troops, the Ratling Guns Warplightning cut you down. If you base his unit to stop the magic/ranged he continues to shoot you.

There are very few places to hide, so you are right, that terrain is valuable, but it is just as much a risk. It does no good to set up cover if it hems you in so you have to rush into the teeth of the gunfire. Being near the board edge just means he only has to get one lucky panic to have you run off the board.

Yeah, they do tend to do that. I think the key is to do your best to make him split his fire. Given that your own regiments will be superior in combat to his, with combat characters, etc, a few losses per regiment per turn will not be a problem. One regiment taking lots of damage will be. If you can utilise terrain so that the available targets are limited and different, you can minimise or even eliminate panic tests.
Also, finding a 'corridor' where only a few of his units can see your advancing units can be a good idea, depending on your army. If you have something that is unbreakable, high ld or tough to kill that you can put at the front to absorb as much damage as possible, do this. Alterantively, terrain may be used as a means to hide fast units that are trying to get around the flanks of the gunline.
I do appreciate that sometimes the battlefield is not what you would like, especially during tournaments. I once played a dwarf gunline player at a carnage tourney who had such a perfect setup it was untrue. Lots of hills and defendable walls, etc, on his side, one copse of trees on mine. I got shot a lot. Those situations, admittedly, are difficult to deal with when facing SAD.

One final idea is to use small, minimum-sized 'cover' units (fast cavalry if possible) to block line of sight. If a unit with t3 and 5 wounds is shoved right in the face of a skaven warlock, he either shoots it, wasting a big round of warp lightning, or ignores it, wasting power dice. Either way, it saves wounds and might prevent a panic test. I think a lot of armies except OK and Dwarves can get a small, fast unit for cheap that can be thrown in the way to absorb damage.

Spirit
17-04-2008, 01:01
Spirit: Don't forget about those auto-hitting ratling guns... I wouldn't want to scout anywhere near them... or the WLC that will just snipe him...

VC do have it a lot better though, but it's with sticking with regular troops. Who cares how much they kill with those guns. You'll just raise them again.

They have a 15" range with move or fire, id like to think i can stay between 15-18 inches away form anything i want lol. With the talisman of lycni ofcourse.

Latro
17-04-2008, 07:49
- jezzails while scary have horrible bs and a even lower ld, unless they are shooting at large targets. they also are a hefty 20 pts each unless they are hitting knights, super expensive infantry, or large monsters they are a waste of points. Actually in most cases a equal amount of points of empire handgunners kills more models then a jezzail team. jezzails excel at killing big stuff, not a major threat to ogres, or standard infantry.


Try telling that to 30 or so Jezzails. They have BS 3 right? Nothing horrible about that, unless looking at it from the target's point of view. With their excellent range this means they will be hitting on 4+ almost all of the time and with the high strength of their shots every hits is almost an auto-wound with no save ...

Handgunners just as good? Hmmm ... what about range? Nope, Jezzails will be hitting. wounding and killing a lot more. Any saves? Nope ... Jezzails turn out to be quite resilient to shooting (-1 to hit, good save) while handgunners simply die in droves. Easy to line up those shots? Skirmishers see everything, everywhere, all of the time ... a line of 10 handgunners has a very limited field of fire, with 20 it becomes worse and with 30 it becomes impossible to concentrate all that firepower.

My money is on the Jezzails.


:cool:

Frankly
17-04-2008, 11:05
Jezzails range means they're affective on turn one, and can still be out of charge ranges of some cavalry.

I DO NOT like playing against this unit

Mercules
17-04-2008, 14:13
all in all the sad list spends to many points on guns when skaven win the game with flank charges and redirecting enemy units most better then hoping your enemy doesnt kill your ratlin gunswith a single arrow.

1. Not everyone has access to bows/crossbows for Weapons teams. This would be why I started taking Maneaters with BoH and occasionally picking it up on a Character. One BoH shot can wipe out a weapon team. Then again, as mentioned above that means being in Jezzail/Warplightning/Cannon range.

2. Jezzails have the same BS as Handgunners, many archers, most crossbow men with greater range, better damage, better armor reduction, and are magical attacks on top of everything else. They have no issue shredding a few models a turn at range, if they can gain LoS to them. Wow, a hefty 20 points, how overcosted :rolleyes:

3. My main issue with the WLC is that it can target through most terrain. Units that ignore terrain in most ways still can't target or charge through it to get tot he WLC but the WLC can shoot them. So, even Wood Elves, Yhetees, Etherials, and such who can quickly move through said terrain are dead before they can ever get close to the WLC.

You also pointed out one of the WORST things about Skaven SAD, fubukii. They can be Gunlinish and Hordish at the exact same time. Shoot the crud out of everything as it comes towards them and then bait and flee with slaves - flank charge anything that manages to survive all that shooting.

Malorian
17-04-2008, 16:30
They have a 15" range with move or fire, id like to think i can stay between 15-18 inches away form anything i want lol. With the talisman of lycni ofcourse.

You're still talking about about charging a ratling gun that can stand and shoot, and autohits...

A scouting vampire just isn't the way to go against skaven.

fubukii
17-04-2008, 17:47
Latro - 30 jezzail are 600 points worth of models, they army unless a bigger point game will be extremely lacking. Indeed the range and armor piericing is what makes the jezzail good, but as i said vs most targets (bar knights and large monsters) excluding the range factor ( as most armies will be advancing on a skaven army, or a empire army, or a dwarf army) a unit of 10 until they get at close range which probably wont be turn 2 or 3, will only hit on average 3 times, killing maybe 3 infantry models or 3 knights or doing 1-2 wounds on a monster. Whil for the same cost you cant get 25 empire hand gunners, which will kill more knights and or infantry per turn of firing, although they were perform alot worse vs the monster. In addition jezzail are ld and somewhat fragile 1 panic test or magic missle, will most likely send them packing. they are also very vunerable to tunnelers, or anything that can get in combat with them (t3 6+ save in cc)


Mercules -
1- its true not everyone has access to missle units outside of taking dow choices, but every army has some sort of magic missle which in this case for killing 1w toughness 3 models, is just as good. Great cannons are always str 10 and have a much longer range then the wlc so i dont think the range issue of the cannon is a big deal.
2- Sure they hit just as well as handgunners, the problem is they panic easier, handguns are cheaper ( you get 2.5 handgunners for 1 jezzail team), the str6 and ap is overkill vs Most targets Except Knights, and large monsters. the average 8-10 men jezzail team is on average at long range gonna only kill 2 knights a turn ( altho at close range this shoots up to 3-4). the main weakness of jezzails is poor ld, and very easy to panic due to low Numbers, I believe you play ogres so try taking 2-3 butchers and casting the panic spell, and the magic missle on them, im sure you will have them running of the board in no time.
3- yea the wlc is a pretty good since it can shoot through terrain, but if it did not have that its just a overpriced weaker version of a empire cannon. it gains those abilities to counter act the random range, and random str of the cannon. sure it can be str 10, but what happens when it gets str2? not very scary. altho i will admit lately i have been having alot of luck with my str 2 WLC shooting at enemy generals :P

Mercules
17-04-2008, 17:59
Mercules -

2- Sure they hit just as well as handgunners, the problem is they panic easier, handguns are cheaper ( you get 2.5 handgunners for 1 jezzail team), the str6 and ap is overkill vs Most targets Except Knights, and large monsters. the average 8-10 men jezzail team is on average at long range gonna only kill 2 knights a turn ( altho at close range this shoots up to 3-4). the main weakness of jezzails is poor ld, and very easy to panic due to low Numbers, I believe you play ogres so try taking 2-3 butchers and casting the panic spell, and the magic missle on them, im sure you will have them running of the board in no time.


18" Range on spell. Move 12" Cast 18" = 20". Jezzail range = 36". So, turn one I don't get to cast any spells on them. Turn two I can, if the unit with the Butcher hasn't panicked yet. Now... I can only use 2 dice on that casting and my opponent usually has 5-7 dispel dice. Chance of spell getting through? Not very good. Bangstick could be used in the first turn, but it is a Bound level 3 item. Dispelled.

So my best bet against Skaven are Yhetees and Gorgers. Yhettes will require Difficult/Very Difficult rocky terrain to hide behind and Gorgers need to actually come on the board at the right time.

Actually, there is one thing in the Ogre army that will cause Skaven nightmares. Gnoblar Scraplauncher. 165 points for a chariot with a warmachine on it. Large template Str 3 killing blow hits. Then again, I'll have one... maybe 2 if I build for it. :)

Wolflord Havoc
17-04-2008, 18:29
The targeting of ratling guns took out the extra piece that really put SAD armies potentially over the top. Now the line is really soft, where before you could depend on r.guns to tear apart anything light that got near the line. Jezzails are good, but you really need to do better with terrain if there's always a big hill to deploy multiple units on. Otherwise, LoS issues will limit them.

In 7th edition, I'd say a balanced horde skaven army is better than SaD.

I would far rather field the balanced Skaven that this 'SAD' monstrosity

Yawn - boring

I started playing WHM last year - so have only ever played 7th Ed and choose skaven because all my previous armies were either Good Guys or Chaos Space marines. I had never had a horde army before.

I have found that the ratling guns place in my army is to guard my armies flank and rear - push it too far forward and it gets zapped - and nothing else in the Skaven army seems to be able to deal/deter fast cavalry. So to that extent while my line is advancing my Gatlings stay back.

I have not really found a useful way of using the Warpfire yet.

And 3 Warplock Enginseers??? <Shudder> No wonder the Skaven players have such a bad name - I find A Warplock enginseer (with the bound ring) and a Greyseer (who more often than not gets Warp Lightning as well) is more than enough - but 3 + a Grey Seer!!!!! :eek:

Is this the general format that people take to tournis?

(Mind you saying that all Ogre Kingdom armies tend to look the same to me as well)

Which is why I only play for fun.

I would not do this and would only take 2 once I had exhausted all the other options and then only in a very very large game.

As a Skaven player I do think that the Ratling Gun is Very Broken.

However I do like it.

It should work (IMO) as follows.

The Skaven player 'decides' how many dice to roll (between 1 and 6) and then rolls them ? (not one at a time). If a Double is rolled consult the chart misfire chart for the weapon - picking the highest double if multiple doubles are rolled.

Then Assuming that the thing has not exploded etc apply the target modifiers (not range) to each dice - So for example if shooting at a Skirmishing unit and the Skaven player rolls 3 dice - a 1 a 3 and a 6 he minus 1 from each to give the number of hits (so in this case 7 - the 1 is discarded the 3 becoems a 2 and the 6 becomes a 5) - if the same target is in a building he would apply -3 (in building) and -1 (skirmisher) so that in the above example we have dropped from 10 hits to just 2.

The same rule (minusing from the dice) should and very easily could be applied to all simular magic Missile Style Attacks (you know where you get Xd6 hits if you pass the spell i.e. Warp Lightning).

Well thats my peice said.

ZeroTwentythree
17-04-2008, 22:23
In addition to agreeing with fubukii's comments (as usual), I'd like to add...


Try telling that to 30 or so Jezzails. They have BS 3 right? Nothing horrible about that, unless looking at it from the target's point of view. With their excellent range this means they will be hitting on 4+ almost all of the time and with the high strength of their shots every hits is almost an auto-wound with no save ...

Handgunners just as good? Hmmm ... what about range? Nope, Jezzails will be hitting. wounding and killing a lot more. Any saves? Nope ... Jezzails turn out to be quite resilient to shooting (-1 to hit, good save) while handgunners simply die in droves. Easy to line up those shots? Skirmishers see everything, everywhere, all of the time ... a line of 10 handgunners has a very limited field of fire, with 20 it becomes worse and with 30 it becomes impossible to concentrate all that firepower.


For the price of 30 jezzails, you would get 75 handgunners. Maybe a few less if you put a few BS4 champs with hochland longrifles in there.

Excellent range, hitting on 4+ almost all the time? Their short range is 18", which is only 6" greater than the 12" short range of handgunners. Most people tend to keep their high-point targets (monster, knights, etc.) away from that range and let the jezzails shoot up cheap troops.

Also jezzails are not -1 to hit. They are US2 and therefore do not get the benefit of being US1 skirmishers. So their chief benefit is that they have a better save than the handgunners, at the cost of making panic tests after fewer casualties, and at Ld5 instead of Ld7.




2. Jezzails have the same BS as Handgunners, many archers, most crossbow men with greater range, better damage, better armor reduction, and are magical attacks on top of everything else. They have no issue shredding a few models a turn at range, if they can gain LoS to them. Wow, a hefty 20 points, how overcosted :rolleyes:



Depends what they have for targets. Shredding a few infantry figures per turn? Overcosted? I don't think so. Overpowered? I don't think so either.

They're significantly better at killing knights & wounding big guys, admittedly. But then, when I face opponents with knights in my empire army (for example,) I'll either keep them out of short range or out of LOS entirely if I'm facing jezzails (or RBTs, or other knight-killers.)




3. My main issue with the WLC is that it can target through most terrain. Units that ignore terrain in most ways still can't target or charge through it to get tot he WLC but the WLC can shoot them. So, even Wood Elves, Yhetees, Etherials, and such who can quickly move through said terrain are dead before they can ever get close to the WLC.



"Most terrain?"

So you don't play with many hills, rocky craigs, and other solid stuff?

And lets say you move your WE scouts, yhetee, eagle, whatever into position to charge and the WLC gets its shot. It gets one shot and if that doesn't work, it's as good as gone. Lost mine last night to carrion. My best result would have been 1 dead carrion, since my opponent wasn't sympathetic enough to line them up in a row for me.

I seriously wonder if people realize it:
- Can't move and fire.
- Can't fire through solid terrain.
- Can only fire in a straight line.
- Must flee whenever it's charged.
- Rolls for random strength hits/misfires.
- Rolls for random range that averages at 28"

I almost never take the thing because it becomes too much of a tactical liability on the table. You need to dedicate too much in order to protect it, or else risk the likely result that it will have little effect in the game.

Unless the opponent cooperates and lines up some nice shots for it, as I said.

Malorian
17-04-2008, 22:29
I think by and large trees are much more common as terrain and even more so in the center parts of the board.

Hills and solid stuff tend to be on the outer edges.

Shamfrit
17-04-2008, 23:18
I'd be more worried about the new daemons, than the lacklustre Skaven list at the moment, not on't id this argument tired, but it's old - of you can't deal with SAD when you know it's coming or could be coming, your problem, it's a legal and effective (yet horribly, horribly fragile army list) and it's on the opponent not the wielder to beat and counteract it.



I'm fed up of defending Skaven, when GW changes the army book, then bring your arguments, and shove it royally up your mansides. :D

Latro
18-04-2008, 07:23
For the price of 30 jezzails, you would get 75 handgunners. Maybe a few less if you put a few BS4 champs with hochland longrifles in there.

Excellent range, hitting on 4+ almost all the time? Their short range is 18", which is only 6" greater than the 12" short range of handgunners. Most people tend to keep their high-point targets (monster, knights, etc.) away from that range and let the jezzails shoot up cheap troops.

Also jezzails are not -1 to hit. They are US2 and therefore do not get the benefit of being US1 skirmishers. So their chief benefit is that they have a better save than the handgunners, at the cost of making panic tests after fewer casualties, and at Ld5 instead of Ld7.


What you (and Fubukii for that matter) seem to forget is that 75 Hand Gunners might look impressive on paper, but on the table they are a big joke. Would you really want to use 75 models with the "Move or shoot" rule, a limited 90 degree shooting arc and the need to have line of sight for each individual model? They can never concentrate fire in any meaningful way, they are helpless against attacks coming over the flanks and they will always be in eachothers way (not to mention of the rest of the army).

Not so with Jezzails, they have perfect all-around line of sight and will only be limited by terrain.

IMHO a short-range of 18 inch is excellent because it means cavalry will have face at least one short-range salvo before it can try to charge ... combined with the Jezzails excellent all-around line of sight this means certain death for average cavalry unit.

... and if cavalry and/or big monsters hide? In that case the Jezzails will be shooting little stuff and keeping the big threats away ... hardly a bad thing.

By the way, thanks for the tip about the lack of -1 to-hit. I'll be sure to remind my opponent the next time he conveniently forgets to inform me (the dirty rats!). Even if we disagree a lot, this little nugget of information makes it all worth it.

Doesn't change my opinion on them though ... I've seen what an experienced player can do with them and it's not a pretty sight.


:cool:

Mercules
18-04-2008, 15:09
Depends what they have for targets. Shredding a few infantry figures per turn? Overcosted? I don't think so. Overpowered? I don't think so either.

They're significantly better at killing knights & wounding big guys, admittedly. But then, when I face opponents with knights in my empire army (for example,) I'll either keep them out of short range or out of LOS entirely if I'm facing jezzails (or RBTs, or other knight-killers.) Yes, but they are VERY good at eliminating big guys and knights. When you face a large block of troops with a big guy or knight army(Bret/OK/BoC(Minos)) you are usually forced to flank their large blocks or loose to static CR. Jezzails played right will go a long way to eliminating those flanking units. Hiding becomes difficult if they get a hill right smack dab in the middle of their deployment area.

Sticking most of the troops near a hill with your shooty stuff on the hill sort of forces one to come over there or hope taking the board quarters is enough to win the (now boring) game.






"Most terrain?"

So you don't play with many hills, rocky craigs, and other solid stuff?

Yeah, MOST terrain. Buildings, fields/farmland, streams, ponds/lakes, mud, fences, trees, shrubs, barricades and more. It has to be counted as Stone to block LoS for the WLC. Trees are very popular around where I play. Hills can be, but they are rarely in a good place to block LoS the majority of the time.



And lets say you move your WE scouts, yhetee, eagle, whatever into position to charge and the WLC gets its shot. It gets one shot and if that doesn't work, it's as good as gone. Lost mine last night to carrion. My best result would have been 1 dead carrion, since my opponent wasn't sympathetic enough to line them up in a row for me.

And lets say the Skaven player was smart and moved one of those Weapon teams over by the WLC. Now those two things back each other up. If they are surrounded by woods most things are forced to get into the Ratling Gun range to get LoS and get shot up and the WLC still gets to shoot at things.


I really think you are missing the point. No single part of the Skaven SAD list is overwhelming. It's when you have it all overlapping like a cleaver Skaven player will.

This powerful shooty thing covers that one's butt while the one over here has that one covered in turn and the Grey Seer/Warlock Engineers and large blocks of troops help cover it all.

So you can say all day long how the Jezzails are not bad. How much of a liability the WLC is and how easy it is to take it out, but you are ignoring that when my Yhettees set up for the charge on the WLC they are probably being exposed to a Warplightning spell, Jezzails, a gun team, a couple PWG, or a nearby block of troops with vastly superior CR. :)

Don't get me wrong. I don't see SAD as an easy win list. It's not a straightforward gunline list. It takes a clever(and lucky) general to set everything up so it all intermeshes and wins. When they get it, they get it.

Basically someone asked why the SAD list is that hard. We gave them reasonable answers to that question. I can beat the list but it is tough as OK and I'm pointing out the tough parts. Really, if there is nothing wrong with the list and it is so weak there is no reason to defend it, right? :)

logan054
18-04-2008, 15:40
I think for me SAD list are really a pain to play, as i collect Khorne mortals i actually have no shooting or magic go at them with, i personally dont find them all that enjoyable to play against but each to his own.

theunwantedbeing
18-04-2008, 15:52
Provided you have the ranged ability and speed to remove warplightning cannons and pick off jezzails and weapon teams...the SAD list isnt that dangerous.
If you dont have those then....your in trouble.

That and not getting the first turn against a SAD list HURTS.
Unless his magic doesnt do anything and his ranged stuff misses or explodes.

Not all armys are the same.
Your anti-SAD list with handgunners and hochland long rifles is something most armies can only dream of having.
Dark elves...we cant pick off warlock engineers out of units, and only have bolt throwers to remove jezzails.
High elves...again, not a lot to pick off jezzails(longbows hitting on 5's) barring bolt throwers, although they can access unlimited range magic spells.
Wood elves...glade riders can pick off jezzails, although your looking at 1 in every 4 shots that hits dealing damage.
Chaos....hellcannon? that's it really.
Beasts...we'll there's always the ambush, but your general may have to hide to get to sound his brayhorn.
Tomb kings...not exactly quick across the board, but skull catapults can help.
Ogres...well you dont have anything that's much help, sucks to be an ogre.
Orcs and goblins...bolt throwers, hitting on 5's kill 1 at a time? Stone throwers are okay though.
Lizardmen...you have a skink screen at least.
Vampire counts...shooting? Whats shooting?
Bretonnains...Trebuchet,peasants?

Most armies dont really get much in the way of picking off the enemy early on.
Especially not in the way that empire get it.

Lord Raneus
18-04-2008, 17:34
Bretonnians don't need ranged fire. Pegasus Knights, the Blessing, and the 2+ save should allow enough Bretonnians to concentrate on a single part of the Skaven line and crush it, especially if you screen with some Mounted Yeomen or another throw-away unit. It'll be heavy losses, but you should (theoretically) be able to reach and destroy the enemy line.

ZeroTwentythree
18-04-2008, 19:30
What you (and Fubukii for that matter) seem to forget is that 75 Hand Gunners might look impressive on paper, but on the table they are a big joke.



Becuase they serve two different purposes? 75 handgunners will do marginally worse at wounding big guys & knights, but will do better vs. infantry.

With my empire army, I use HG (and crossbow & bow) vs. lighter targets. I use cannons against heavies. With my skaven the jezzails largely take the place of the cannon and the HG (and others) are substituted with ratling(s) and warlock(s).




IMHO a short-range of 18 inch is excellent because it means cavalry will have face at least one short-range salvo before it can try to charge ... combined with the Jezzails excellent all-around line of sight this means certain death for average cavalry unit.


Only with a large number of them, like 30 (600 points) as you mentioned. That, as fubukii mentioned is a large (& fragile) chunk of the army.




By the way, thanks for the tip about the lack of -1 to-hit. I'll be sure to remind my opponent the next time he conveniently forgets to inform me (the dirty rats!).

It's a subtle change from 6th to 7th ed. By RAW jezzails can't enter buildings either, as they are "cavalry."




So you can say all day long how the Jezzails are not bad. How much of a liability the WLC is and how easy it is to take it out, but you are ignoring that when my Yhettees set up for the charge on the WLC they are probably being exposed to a Warplightning spell, Jezzails, a gun team, a couple PWG, or a nearby block of troops with vastly superior CR. :)



With all that stuff pointed at your poor yhettees, what's threatening the rest of your army? ;)

And that's exactly my point -- I can make the WLC work, but I have to dedicate too much to doing so. The WLC is no longer a 100 point war machine, but a 100 point + cost of escort/guard war machine.

You can't look at it in a vacuum.





Don't get me wrong. I don't see SAD as an easy win list. It's not a straightforward gunline list. It takes a clever(and lucky) general to set everything up so it all intermeshes and wins. When they get it, they get it.

Basically someone asked why the SAD list is that hard. We gave them reasonable answers to that question. I can beat the list but it is tough as OK and I'm pointing out the tough parts. Really, if there is nothing wrong with the list and it is so weak there is no reason to defend it, right? :)


Like I previously mentioned, I think SAD, more than any other gunline, reuquires a cooperative opponent.

You play OK, so you're automatically at a disadvantage, IMHO, because SAD is most effective (IMHO) at taking out small elite forces, because of the ability to concentrate fire. Same could be said for many other armies that place a lot of points into few troops.

Mercules
18-04-2008, 22:04
With all that stuff pointed at your poor yhettees, what's threatening the rest of your army? ;)

And that's exactly my point -- I can make the WLC work, but I have to dedicate too much to doing so. The WLC is no longer a 100 point war machine, but a 100 point + cost of escort/guard war machine.

You can't look at it in a vacuum.
Well, notice I said, 'or' not and. Any one of those other threats is enough by itself to guard the WLC so you don't need a true babysitter, just multiple overlapping fields of fire.

Also... your "Warmachine" has a cost of 100+escort and a Rare slot. My 2 "Warmachines" have a cost 145 and Character slot(Hunter with his Harpoon Crossbow) or 165, a special slot and at least one other unit(Gnoblars of some sort). Yours has to flee when charged and mine has to charge if it can, even if that would lead it into terrain that would damage it.

You are right, we can't look at it in a vacuum but I don't think you got the short end of the stick either.





Like I previously mentioned, I think SAD, more than any other gunline, reuquires a cooperative opponent.

You play OK, so you're automatically at a disadvantage, IMHO, because SAD is most effective (IMHO) at taking out small elite forces, because of the ability to concentrate fire. Same could be said for many other armies that place a lot of points into few troops.

Maybe... With Empire Gunline you race in your light fast troops to take out the cannons and have to avoid the troops with guns. Same with Dwarves. With Skaven you race in to take out the big shooters but many of them can Stand and Shoot and have 360 deg LoS. It's just that much more difficult to maneuver into a position to take out Skaven SAD than it is to maneuver around other gunlines. Most of them have more LoS issues.

Cannons don't bounce far enough or over shoot a lot. Other things scatter. Bolt throwers use BS. So what if the WLC has to roll for random Str and Range? All of them have some shooting issue to counteract their power. At least the WLC hits everything in a straight line UP TO it's range, point blank to the end.

Skaven can, without the WLC take out Elite troops and tough troops. They can deal with things only hurt by magic or with ward saves negated by magic, which Gunlines often have issues with.

Skaven SAD is not unbeatable. It's not perfect. It has many of the strengths of other Gunlines and trades there typical weaknesses for risking blowing themselves up. Look at the biggest advantage they have over typical Gunlines. Once the foe reaches you, your gunline is normally done shooting and busy dying. Skaven just pour the ranged fire in and kill everything.

fubukii
18-04-2008, 23:46
or for 600 points you could have 3 great cannons and 38 handgunners :)

I dont know about your friends but i have been playing skaven since late 5th edition and i cant tell you how hard it is to deploy 2 units of jezzails to get firing lines in my usual army. With all the amounts of blocked infantry i have unless i get a hill its very hard to even draw los at all. Now by the same token a unit of handgunners may have access to thee same hill whats stoppin 3 units from 5x2 deploying on that hill? The cav bases makes it hard to deploy the jezzails, itactaully makes them like deploying 20 handgunners as opposed to ten. jezzails look scary but in the end they really almost never earn thier points back, they are more of a intimidating force.


Skaven have their advantages, they cant fight in combat at all so in retrospect we gain a decent shooting and magic phase so that the army can kill stuff.

Mad Larkin UK
18-04-2008, 23:54
I would love to see this army play my mates Dwarfs. Anvil and thorek would wipe out those jezzails pretty sharpish, bolt throwers snipe ratling guns and then dwarfs skill skaven. easy

theunwantedbeing
18-04-2008, 23:54
Deploy those handgunners on a hill by all means.
The skaven player wont go in range of all those handgunner units.
Plus his jezzails can sit well out of reach taking pot shots at you while acting as a rearguard for the army.

R Man
19-04-2008, 00:44
or for 600 points you could have 3 great cannons and 38 handgunners

Where am I going to get these cannons from? Not all armies are Empire!

And as far as I am aware there is no rule that forces the Jezzils to shoot the closed enemy unit. With a 36 range they should still be able to find a good target. It would be very difficult under reasonable circumstances to keep those heavy hitters out of the action and still have them contribute in a meaningful way. Not impossible but not something that can be guarantted.

fubukii
19-04-2008, 02:36
unless the jezzails deploy on a hill i think it would be very easy to screen your heavy hitters with cheap troops to block los from those jezzails.

Ward.
19-04-2008, 03:23
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

SAD: A well tuned gunline that eliminated all of a gunlines weakneses in true skaven style.

7th Edition skaven gunline: Not really all that harder then a normal gunline army but dosn't have a figure head (like thorek/ plain anvil or karl franz on his dragon/ arch lector).

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 19:31
I'm still surprised people don't deploy a Cannon in the middle of woods, or move them into woods at the nearest opportunity. Yes, by all means, D6 S6 hits on the machine itself is going to cause you considerable problems, but I've tried it a few times now and it's never killed itself outright, which leads your opponent to keeping a wide birth or sending in Flyers/Scouts to deal with it, in which case, it's taken two or so units of of range and had up to 3 shots off in the process.

winkypinky
20-04-2008, 15:28
Because:

It can shoot. (with s5 is also a valid point)
&
You start 24" apart.

Enough said.

Finnigan2004
20-04-2008, 16:10
Where am I going to get these cannons from? Not all armies are Empire!

Dogs of war.

Shamfrit
20-04-2008, 16:15
I meant the Warp Lightning Cannon obviously, since a normal Cannon is not a Chariot and doesn't take the impact hits and otherwise can't see anything at all.

ZeroTwentythree
20-04-2008, 17:39
I'm still surprised people don't deploy a Cannon in the middle of woods, or move them into woods at the nearest opportunity. Yes, by all means, D6 S6 hits on the machine itself is going to cause you considerable problems, but I've tried it a few times now and it's never killed itself outright, which leads your opponent to keeping a wide birth or sending in Flyers/Scouts to deal with it, in which case, it's taken two or so units of of range and had up to 3 shots off in the process.


Whoa. I never thought of it that way. My brain has always registered "impact damage = bad." But I like your idea, especially since flyers are usually what I've seen sent after them.