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Victomorga
17-04-2008, 00:21
almost every human, astartes, and eldar model in the WD studio armies (and the armies featured in WD) are caucasian. I included the caveat "almost," but as far as the studio armies go, I don't know that I've ever seen a non-white model.

the salamanders are described as being dark-complected, but not specifically afro-centric in their features or culture. the white scars are asian insofar as they have a mongol raider theme, but both these examples are missing the point.

shouldn't every chapter have all ethnicities? for a long time, the DA were recruited from "plains world," a planet described as having a population very similar to native-americans. have you ever seen any reflection of that other than a few feathers hanging off of the deathwing?

does this bother anyone else? most SM chapters recruit from a variety of worlds, which ought to have a variety of ethnicities, yet that isn't reflected at all by the models fielded on the table.

and what about the eldar? all the time they've been around the universe, and the blending of ALL their phenotypes has resulted in a race entirely made up of tall, lithe, translucently-pale, pointy-faced white aliens?

Yarick Zan
17-04-2008, 00:32
To me if you are worried about race in a game, you really need to check your priorities. Race doesn't matter a damn bit. You can make your marines and everything whatever you want them to be.

Chaplain of Chaos
17-04-2008, 00:53
Look at star wars... in star wars everyone was white too... (besides lando)

I always thought of the Salamanders as being Black and White Scars as being mongolian or at the very least east asian.

Brother Siccarius
17-04-2008, 00:57
Honestly, doesn't matter to me. There's plenty of ethnic diversity in the fluff. If you want a different ethnicity for your army I can direct you to a few good guides. However, with most of humanity worried about things not being green, pointy, or chitinous rather than black, brown or pale, I don't try to inject any more ethnic diversity than crosses my mind when I paint.

khirsath
17-04-2008, 01:03
I would say that the 40k universe has more ethnic diversity than Earth does today. After all there are a million worlds that were separated from the rest of humanity for millenia prior to the Great Crusade. That's the reason the Imperial Creed is very particular about what it considers as an acceptable 'human'

I don't know why the studio armies are all the same shade though. I made it a point to use the whole spectrum of various skin tones with my guard army, it gives the force that feels like it was drawn from a large population.

Obliterati
17-04-2008, 01:06
In the grim darkness of the far future, there are no black people.

It really would be nice if GW could put a little more diversity into the game and fluff. But I'm sure they'd screw it up by making it seem trite and forced.

And I suppose that the game is just of reflection of it's creators and players. 99.998% of the people who play 40k are middle-class white males. So there you go. It's a little lame, but it's not surprising.

Aeolian
17-04-2008, 01:11
Yeah in 40,000 years the only 'ethnicities' (you know you really mean race) will be Black/White/Asian. Riiight.

Chances are there would be types of human we don't have now, simple as. No current race would still exist.

max the dog
17-04-2008, 02:01
Actually wasn't a few of the old pewter scouts non-Caucasian? I'm digging through my old unpainted figures now but I could've sworn one of them had an afro shaved into a mohawk hairstyle.

And yes I'm being serious.

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 03:02
Racial diversity is in there much more than you might think, which means it's working well as the people all blend in together. In many WD featured armies we see black and white models mixed, and some that are possibly asian or hispanic, or just inked too heavily. The main problem that I see is that most painters do not know how to paint black skin well and a lot of times it turns out look poor. If you don't believe me then I will direct you to go and look at models in the next game league you play in.

I play primarily Imperial Guard and use a mixed force with a rate of about 5:2:3 white/black/hispanic. This makes the whole force look fairly cohesive as a unit but broadens the spectrum of models and give some small amount of individuality to an otherwise homogenous group.

Although no expert by any means when it comes to painting, I have had luch with dark skin by basing in either dark green or reddish. Once painted over it gives either than dark, almost blue looking black skin tone that is common on many tribal Africans and Carribean Islanders. The reddish undercoat makes a lighter, warmer brown tone like many light skinned American or mixed people. One the darker skin I use a brown-light blue highlight although I am still experiementing with it. For mid grade skin I just use a darker flesh color and a thicker wash, highlighted in the normal skin tone used on my lighter skinned troopers.

One area that I need to improve in is painting the teeth and eyes on dark skinned models as to me they always turn out looking a little cartoony.

starlight
17-04-2008, 03:29
In 40,000 years it's equally likely that interbreeding will have us all the same pale mud colour in the end...

I've seen a wide range of skin tones, but in my own armies there are few humans who are silly (or crazy) enough to go into battle with bare skin showing. If they aren't wearing armour of some sort, they likely have camo paint on their skin. The only notable exception to this would be my Sisters of Battle.

Brother Siccarius
17-04-2008, 03:36
In the grim darkness of the far future, there are no black people.

It really would be nice if GW could put a little more diversity into the game and fluff. But I'm sure they'd screw it up by making it seem trite and forced.

And I suppose that the game is just of reflection of it's creators and players. 99.998% of the people who play 40k are middle-class white males. So there you go. It's a little lame, but it's not surprising.

There's a lot of diversity in the fluff. I don't see how anyone can expect more from it. The latest Horus Heresy book had entire regiments of non-caucasian ethnicities, as have the Gaunt's Ghosts books. There's been plenty of non Caucasian people in multiple novels. In the case of many characters, skin color isn't even mentioned. Do you have to say "Black/White/Brown/Red" in order to be diverse?

As to ethnicities, the ones we have today don't exist. There are no Asian or African people, because Asia or Africa aren't around anymore, in any sense that we would recognize. They're known by entirely different names, have entirely different geography and in general look entirely different, even the people. A lot of which stems from generations of people living in hive worlds where natural light is a luxury, for the most part, and melanin won't produce the way it does in our rather open environments.

There's also the effects of different suns, genetic mutation, and diversification to put into the equation. If you're just talking about adding in the ethnicities that exist in today's world, that's rather unfair to the background material. Where are the mentions of Ogryns and Ratlings, where are the people who've had genetic change from generations growing up on a planet with a blue sun?

The most diverse culture is that which doesn't force ethnicities to the fore in order to prove that it is diverse.

corvo
17-04-2008, 03:43
In 40,000 years it's equally likely that interbreeding will have us all the same pale mud colour in the end...

Unless they live somewhere where the environment creates a specific selective pressure. Like somewhere really sunny, or a hive world, an ice world, or some other mono-environment planet.

Most long term (1000's of years of continuous high standard of living) industrial worlds though, I think starlight is spot on. 40000 is a very, very long time.

Brother Siccarius
17-04-2008, 03:53
Unless they live somewhere where the environment creates a specific selective pressure. Like somewhere really sunny, or a hive world, an ice world, or some other mono-environment planet.

Most long term (1000's of years of continuous high standard of living) industrial worlds though, I think starlight is spot on. 40000 is a very, very long time.

Thing is, it doesn't even need to be on another world to have different skin pigments. They would have different skin pigments throughout the different worlds and regions on the worlds. Any group native to the equator of a world would likely have a darker skin pigmentation than those who live above or below it. Equatorial jungles negate some of the effect, creating a light brown skin pigmentation (Such as the natives of South American jungles) rather than a darker brown-black (like in Africa and native Australians).

Even if interbreeding was wide spread over the surface of the world, the pigmentations of living in the natural environment would remain, some what, dominant. Black skin would lighten over generations above the equator as the body produces less melanin in reaction to the environment change, and on or below a lighter skin pigmentation would darken over generations as the body produces more melanin to adapt to the greater amount of direct sunlight. In general, it may not be exactly the same color after many generations, but the skin pigment of those who receive more direct sunlight would remain darker, and those who receive less would remain lighter.

Of course, you'd also be talking about en-mass interbreeding, something along the lines of a eugenics program in order to pull off to get everyone roughly the same color.

Obliterati
17-04-2008, 04:06
@Brother Siccarius

Here's the thing. Except for that Inquisitor dude in Dawn of War, and one of the Sisters in the Faith and Fire novel, every primary or supporting character that has a physical description in any official 40k fluff is a Caucasian with a vaguely Anglo-Germanic name. At least as far as I can remember. Feel free to punch me in the face if I'm wrong.

Flip through your IG Codex. Look through the Witchhunters and Demonhunters sections of GW's website. Every single model, every Guardsman, every Inquisitor, every Commisar, even the Arco-Flagellents...all white.

Is this intentional? Does it mean anything? Is there anything more pointless than discussing the racial status of a make-believe universe designed around plastic toy soldiers?

Probably not ;)

But 75% of the people on Earth are not Caucasian. I would think that GW could make at least a little more effort to add some diversity, if for no other reason than it makes good buisness sense.

starlight
17-04-2008, 04:13
Do bear in mind that the experiences of the people doing the painting will have a large impact on what they paint. If they live and work in an area that is predominantly Caucasian, that's likely going to form part of their artistic expression.

As well, it will also depend on what they feel comfortable painting. Studio painters (that I've spoken with) tend to do large numbers of models on a pseudo-assembly line, so introducing different colours using shading they aren't used to might break up their rhythm, and cause delays.

Also, quite possibly, they just didn't think about it...

Brother Siccarius
17-04-2008, 04:25
@Brother Siccarius

Here's the thing. Except for that Inquisitor dude in Dawn of War, and one of the Sisters in the Faith and Fire novel, every primary or supporting character that has a physical description in any official 40k fluff is a Caucasian with a vaguely Anglo-Germanic name. At least as far as I can remember. Feel free to punch me in the face if I'm wrong.

Flip through your IG Codex. Look through the Witchhunters and Demonhunters sections of GW's website. Every single model, every Guardsman, every Inquisitor, every Commisar, even the Arco-Flagellents...all white.

Is this intentional? Does it mean anything? Is there anything more pointless than discussing the racial status of a make-believe universe designed around plastic toy soldiers?

Probably not ;)

But 75% of the people on Earth are not Caucasian. I would think that GW could make at least a little more effort to add some diversity, if for no other reason than it makes good buisness sense.

The Junior Inquisitor from Ragnar's Claw, one entire regiment in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book (who play a pivitol role), every Imperial Guardsmen of the Geno Five-Two from Legion, Magnus the Red (Guess why he's called that?), The Salamanders Chapter.

I also really hate the word Caucasian, because it glosses over hundreds of ethnicities in a broad stroke that just says "You all look alike to everyone else!" I hate it for the same reason many darker skinned people hate being labeled as "Black" or "Brown". If you really want to nit-pick at details, then no one in the 40k universe except someone born in the Imperial Palace is "Caucasian" because they're the only ones who'd originate from the Caucasus region.

You want your guardsmen to have black skin, fine, have them with black skin. You want them with white skin, fine, have them with white skin. You want them mixed, fine, mix the skin pigment. You want them royal gorram purple with yellow gorram polkadots then fine! Paint them that way! But don't complain about it when everyone else doesn't paint it that way!

Geddonight
17-04-2008, 05:34
Back in the days when GW still had their own forum, I remember one of the staff mentioning that caucasian flesh tones lent itself better to photography; the layering/inking you can do really puts some depth to the face, and any effects you want to add--greys to show a close buzz cut or a 5-o'clock shadow or even just being covered in dirt and gore--show up better.

I'm no photographer, so I cannot comment to the veracity of their statement. I do know, however, that GW provides more light fleshtones than dark (I do like using the terracotta though).

On a fluffier note, I expect that the eldar, would have washed out all melanin differences by this stage in their evolution.

It's also possible that by the 30th millennium, humanity has also washed out much of the differences in skin color--interbreeding would dilute much of the stark contrast you see today. It's possible, however, that there would be "pure bred" colonies of specific races--perhaps Caliban was settled by the descendants of Native Americans. Perhaps the Jamaicans all up and moved to the Salamander world (of course, it's also possible that in the time the people inhabited their new planets, the environment would cause new skin color changes).

Ultimately, it's a gorram sci-fi universe. Tell whatever story you want to tell. If you want your Imperial guardsmen to be as ethnically diverse as the original Star Trek crew, then so be it. If you want your space marines to embody the Aryan Nation, go for it (though don't expect to be free from reprisal for doing so).

Most of my marines are white, though I confess that I was watching Demolition Man while painting up a squad of scouts and just HAD to do a Wesley Snipes model with an orange buzz cut.

Cheers!

Mad King George
17-04-2008, 06:16
Warhammer 40k

In the future there is only war...sorry White people.

Gdolkin
17-04-2008, 06:54
Mersadie Oliton from the Heresy books, Zeph Mathuin from Ravenor, the Mortifactors, some Catachans..

malika
17-04-2008, 07:02
I would love to see more ethnicities on the game table, but yeah...I guess Caucasian skin is the easiest to pain and for some reason I can't imagine "black/yellow/red/brown" (to use the US racial chart) Eldar. Humans on the other hand would have many types of skin colours and ethnicities (wouldn't purely base that thing on skin colour by the way).

Jellicoe
17-04-2008, 07:18
If I recall correctly Eisenhorn's pilots were black skinned and there are a good few other references if you look. More often than not a character's skin colour is simply not referred to

As someone else mentioned, ethincity by skin colour becomes irrelevant when humanity is spread across a million planets with all the cultural and biological diversity that that brings, it is a peculiarly terracentric concept. I would imagine that your planet and planetary culture would be the dominant feature of the future

Iuris
17-04-2008, 07:55
Shortly put: while the models and illustrations are mostly of white people, the background indicates variety on a much much higher scale. You get blue skinned people, people with extra large eyes, and the only limit to how far you get is where the line is drawn to declare one a mutant...

Sir_Turalyon
17-04-2008, 08:21
As most of these people don't know what planet Caucas is on, calling them caucasian is stretching concept :p . While human planets were isolated during millenia of Age of Strife, they probably spawned new ethnic groups (Delaque, Goliath, Esher, Squats, Ratlings, Orgyns )which may or may not be similiar to ones that existed on Earth tens of millenia before. Space Marines are slightly different matter, as gene-seed seems to influence looks of Marine - Night Lords were always pale, novels suggest Luna Wolves ofter had faces similiar to Horus and so on. Perhaps reason that Dark Angels are white, Salamanders black and White Scars mongolian is that Lion was white, Vulcan black and Jagathai Khan mongolian, rather then that they recruit from specific ethnicity.

I think only reason for high percentage of white people in people's armies is that GW does makes several paints for white skin (bronzed, elf, dwarf flesh), while people willing to make blacks and asians have to find right mix themselves. It's not that unreasonable, as paints are also intended for WFB and LotR ranges, and fantasy races are eighter white-ish or green / grey / rotten.

While on the subject, what colours are you using to make asian skin tones? Black guardsmen are easy to make with scorched brown, but I've failed to make convincing asians.

LoneSniperSG
17-04-2008, 08:27
What can I say.. I wound up dealing with a chapter of white, red-haired men who like on a planet of white, red-haired people. Yay Fenris!

Actually I was just thinking about this today, and wondering the same thing.

I plan for my Kasrkin Sergeant to be black.. he'll be sort of an homage to Halo's Sergeant Johnson and his badass ways.

malika
17-04-2008, 09:30
Would be great if somebody could post something along the lines of painting tutorials for painting different skin colours! ;)

Aeolian
17-04-2008, 09:59
Ultimately, it's a gorram sci-fi universe. Tell whatever story you want to tell. If you want your Imperial guardsmen to be as ethnically diverse as the original Star Trek crew, then so be it. If you want your space marines to embody the Aryan Nation, go for it (though don't expect to be free from reprisal for doing so).

Sorry but explain that one?

Geddonight
17-04-2008, 10:41
Sorry but explain that one?

Some folks have caught a lot of flak recently for theming their armies certain ways--especially those with Nazi/neo-nazi/nordic themes. Therefore blond-haired, blue-eyed marines with certain accompanying iconography might just bring the wrath and bile of forum members, etc.

Back On Topic: Good catch about the Space Marines emulating their primarchs. I hadn't thought of that, though it makes sense.

It seems that GW has created a galaxy where race isn't a concern--class and wealth definitely play a role, however, and can influence how well you do in life. That and your ability to make war.

Cheers

Gdolkin
17-04-2008, 13:23
The Mordian Iron Guard looked like a bunch of Aryans as well as dressing like Nazis, but it was no big deal, it's sci-fantasy inspired by history. Surely no-one wants to put actual swastikas on their marines though?
About Fenris: They aint all redheads, there's blonde, brown, black and grey as well.
The Tanith had an interesting 'ethnicity'. 'Ethnicity' is also a matter of culture as well as skin colour, no?
It's true though, none of the races and ethnicities we describe eacthother by would survive distinct across all that time and all those worlds. In cases like Tanith, Fenris, Valhalla, Mordian etc. it seems some worlds are of 'one' skin colour and sometimes 'one' hair colour, but of course there are also multicoloured worlds and every degree of variation in between, there's many thousands of human worlds. There's abhumans and all sorts. Here's an example of strong 'ethnic' traits that could perhaps approach 'abhuman' territory:
If Goliaths and Eschers could get along, they could produce rock'ard kids for recruitment into the Marines. Star-cross'd lovers from enemy Houses ;). Goliaths are so much bigger than other men and Eschers are so much bigger than other women, the mixing of their genes would produce baby ogryns.. speaking of which, someone linky Phil S.'s version of ogryn?

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 13:55
@Brother Siccarius

Here's the thing. Except for that Inquisitor dude in Dawn of War, and one of the Sisters in the Faith and Fire novel, every primary or supporting character that has a physical description in any official 40k fluff is a Caucasian with a vaguely Anglo-Germanic name. At least as far as I can remember. Feel free to punch me in the face if I'm wrong.

Flip through your IG Codex. Look through the Witchhunters and Demonhunters sections of GW's website. Every single model, every Guardsman, every Inquisitor, every Commisar, even the Arco-Flagellents...all white.

Is this intentional? Does it mean anything? Is there anything more pointless than discussing the racial status of a make-believe universe designed around plastic toy soldiers?

Probably not ;)

But 75% of the people on Earth are not Caucasian. I would think that GW could make at least a little more effort to add some diversity, if for no other reason than it makes good buisness sense.


Well what do you suppose people would have said if the Arco-flagellents were made brown? Think there might have been someone raising the idea of racial inequality like the Imperium using them as slaves? Remember that these are supposed to represent an idea taken from a historical fact- Europe in the middle ages. There weren't a lot of non-white people floating around and persecuting witches at that point in time.

And while you are mentioning the IG codex, perhaps you have forgotten the Attilians, whom are all Mongoliod decendants. In the old Catachan mini-dex there was a black man right on the cover.

In the BL novel "Legion" the Imperial warfleet commander is described as being black.

I think that this is another dead-end complaint in the same vein as GW pricing policies.

After all, in the end they are YOUR models and YOUR paint job. Don't blame GW for this as all they are supposed to do is inspire the players themselves to make their own units with their own histories.

DarthSte
17-04-2008, 14:02
The Mordian Iron Guard looked like a bunch of Aryans as well as dressing like Nazis, but it was no big deal, it's sci-fantasy inspired by history. Surely no-one wants to put actual swastikas on their marines though?

I always thought that the Mordian Uniform looked more like a US Marine Dress Uniform...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PlateIV_Enlisted_Dress_Uniform.jpg

Victomorga
17-04-2008, 14:11
first of all, everyone listing non-white characters in the fluff, read the original post. I am taking issue with the representation of other skin-tones in studio armies and in WD, not in the fluff. if anything, the arguments you're making support my point; you are saying these people exist but never make it to the table top.

second, the word caucasian does not only refer to people of the caucas mountains. "caucasoid" is actually the appropriate form of the word if you want to split hairs, but it is a bit clunky and strange and leads to the introdution of the terms "negroid" and "mongoloid" which stray close to ethnic slurs. but I digress:

interbreeding to the point of a single skin color would not result in "everybody is white." it would result in a medium-to-light brown or beige color. also, any planet where people live outside and not in hives or another artificial environment would have ethnic diversity. as someone else pointed out, skin tone evolves in response to sun exposure, which is determined by your position on the planet.

on the subject of geneseeds: the process of becoming a space marine wouldn't change someone into a different race / ethnicity. that's ridiculous. over-all features may change slightly to resemble the primarch, but they wouldn't just excrete their melanin and lose all semblance of their original race/ethnicity.

and lastly, it isn't any more difficult for GW to paint / photograph other skin tones. look at the LOTR orc races, or the haradrim (which are modelled after middle-eastern cultures). also, I don't reacall the name of the army, but there is an asian race in LOTR too. no problem photographing these models for the magazine and web site, and they have a wide variety of skin tones.
someone else made the very salient point that there really aren't tutorials for painting anything other than "white" skin or monster skin.

EDIT: and I know people can paint their models any way they want. that isn't what this is about. this about the fact that GW only ever paints caucasians and provides support for painting caucasians.

Sigs_09
17-04-2008, 14:37
I don't reacall the name of the army, but there is an asian race in LOTR too. no problem photographing these models for the magazine and web site, and they have a wide variety of skin tones.

I think you're thinking of the Easterlings.

I also agree with the multi-cultural inbreeding, after hundreds of years, would make the society a medium, almost sandy olive tone. Within a hundred years, experts have said that the US will be over 50 per cent culturally inbred, making the majority of its population a mix between the two extreme colours.
Personally, I am mixed -- my white mom was born in the US, and we can actually trace that side of the family back hundreds of years with nothing but white ancestory. My dad is from Cuba, and, while he's not a supder-dark skintone, my skin is a nice light olive.
Now, if this can happen in the US within a hundred years, think about by the 41 millenium...

TheBigBadWolf
17-04-2008, 14:43
Im of the opion that if you are worried about races being represent in a table top game then, you are going to be worried about a lot of things in life.

As for them being predominatley white, i would say its because most if not all of the designers and painters are white, it was designed in the UK where the majority of the population are predominatley white so its only natural that they are painted white, as its what they know, is most common to them and represents the culture.

IceDragon84
17-04-2008, 14:46
http://www.jenova.dk/index.htm
Go in the tutorial part, tips on painting 5 different tones

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 14:54
Im of the opion that if you are worried about races being represent in a table top game then, you are going to be worried about a lot of things in life.

As for them being predominatley white, i would say its because most if not all of the designers and painters are white, it was designed in the UK where the majority of the population are predominatley white so its only natural that they are painted white, as its what they know, is most common to them and represents the culture.


I pretty much agree with the above. I'm also slightly concerend that it seems the hobby may now have been infiltrated by the noxious P.C. brigade, who never, ever it seems, have anything else better to blather on about other than misrepresentation.

The bottom line is that the demographic for GW is the white working/middle class male of a certain age. I'd say, in all fariness, under 30. Whether its a conscious decision by GW to represent their models this way, or it isn't, i'm still not sure i understand the underlying point of bringing it up. if it was to simply 'bring it up for bringing it ups sake', then fine, thats cool. But i'm not so sure this is the case.


If you want to paint an army all white, then fine. If GW wants to portray its armies are being predominantly white, then fine. If you want an ethnic mix, then fine. There really shouldn't be a problem here.

Richter Kless
17-04-2008, 14:58
Surely no-one wants to put actual swastikas on their marines though?

I did it on my Guardsman. Or at least the Helghast variant.

Yes, I did get alot of flak for it, but I didn't care because I want my space nazi's.

Most people probably fail to see that the nazi's fit into the Imperium perfectly without any changes needed.

But alas, the overal stupidity and ignorance of the common men causes them to go all berserk at the first sight of anything nazistic (often confused with fascistic).

And on racial diversity. May I remind you that we also have the space muslims.

Sigs_09
17-04-2008, 15:00
Another thing, as was just pointed out to me last week by my the token English guy who works at my local GW, is that when Fantasy came out, the armies all stood for a real cultural group -- the High Elves were the Southern English, the Dwarves were the Northern English, the Bretonians were the French, the Empire were the German, etc...
That would be why there are more light skin colours than dark, which he said never really came around until 40k...

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 15:02
Now thats interesting......

IceDragon84
17-04-2008, 15:10
http://www.jenova.dk/index.htm
Just go in the tutorial part and there are some tips on painting a couple different tones, hope it helps.

Magister
17-04-2008, 15:16
I think this is great thread, but i don't really understand why people get hung up on racial stereotyping, i mean so what that most models seem to be white or pink coloured? Thats the way it is, whinging about it isn't really going to help your case, if your so concerned then do something.

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 15:17
[QUOTE=Richter Kless;2532398]

But alas, the overal stupidity and ignorance of the common men causes them to go all berserk at the first sight of anything nazistic (often confused with fascistic).

QUOTE]

And what about the overall stupidity and ignorance portrayed by using the government that is synonomous with oppression and ethnic cleansing as a game piece? That sort of thinking tends to trivialize the over 6 million souls directly killed by the very real and very evil organiztion not to mention how many others were killed in the war to bring that government to an end. It is much akin to painting whilte robes and burning crosses on models- yes that mentality may be how some of the Imperium is portrayed in our little fantasy world however it is a very real form of insult to use, especially in a non-historical game. There are symbols that have taken on much more meaning that their original intent and we need to be aware of that.

I would not play against anyone displaying the poor taste to use the swaztika on their models.

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 15:23
Well, lets try to remember that the symbol we now associate with Nazi germany did in fact symbolise something very different ages before the Nazis got their paws on it.

Let be honest here, if you're going to play a game where in the fluff people are systematically destroyed for believeing in anything other than the imperial ideal, and then moan about the Swaztika, then... you're a hypocrite, aren't you?

Obliterati
17-04-2008, 15:39
I got used to being Token Black Guy at the game store a loooong time ago. This is definitely not the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. I'm going to keep buying my Guardsmen and Space Marines no matter what their facial features look like. But, it does make me wonder...why not? Why not have a few more non-white/caucasian/pan-european/whatever characters?

Rhetorical questions to Random Warseer User: do you feel GW has done enough to encourage diversity (whatever that means) in it's products? How much is "enough"? Are you actually opposed to more racially diverse characters and models...or do you not care either way?

Would you still buy GW products if 90% of the human models had African features? Or Indian? Or Asian? Or Latin American?


This is an interesting topic, I hope we can all keep our flamethrowers safely tucked away.

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 15:44
Well, lets try to remember that the symbol we now associate with Nazi germany did in fact symbolise something very different ages before the Nazis got their paws on it.

Let be honest here, if you're going to play a game where in the fluff people are systematically destroyed for believeing in anything other than the imperial ideal, and then moan about the Swaztika, then... you're a hypocrite, aren't you?

No, and this is not a stance that I will accept either. Killing off imaginary people in droves is fine- that is called fantasy. Using symbolic representations of actual attrocities is not. Regardless of what the swaztika meant at one point in time to the Indians, Native Americas, and Nordic peoples, it now has a cultural representation meaning something different and in a very real sence, evil. That is not something defensible by saying "Oh, it's just because the game and history have similarities."

Would it be acceptable for me to build a cityfight twin towers set with buring holes and people jumping off the roof, or do you suppose that might be a little too much? Would modeling pits of massed corpses slowly decaying in mass-graves be interesting terrain, especially if I put a little sign over the top that said. "Bring your Hutus here." What do you think the reason GW quietly never brought back the Human Bomb models was?

What you are talking about is a seperation of fantantic and real elements. Yes, people play historical games. Yes, they model Waffen SS. Yes, they reenact WWII battles in full regalia. Those are historical simulations meant to recapture the actual events. Using offensive symbology in a fantasy game is completely different. It is a glorification of events that enters into dangerous inteleectual territory by trivializing those past events. GW have already provided us with the background needed to represent our own fascist government oppressing it's people, there is no need to muddle reality with that.

malika
17-04-2008, 15:45
40k is fundamentally still "fantasy in space" and well...most fantasy is based on medieval European myth/stories which means that the humans there are primarily light skinned.

However looking at sci fi we tend to see a change, while Star Wars had a primarily white cast, movies such as the Matrix included way more ethnicities (just look at the population of Zion in the Matrix Reloaded). I do hope that GW's painters/sculptors will eventually paint/sculpt more ethnic diversity into their miniatures. So instead of "white/Caucasian" colours and facial features we might see Asian or African influences as well. For many people it's easy to say "you are being PC here", but this has very little to do with PC per se...it's just the adding of some diversity and realism into the very ethnocentric 40k universe. :)

Bloodknight
17-04-2008, 15:51
I think the facial features on GW miniatures are barely human, much less white or black. Also, to say white people are caucasian is a broad statement. I usually can judge if people are German, French, Finnish or Russian, but all of them are put into "Caucasian". You cannot even group "black features" together because Bantu look nothing like Massai, for example.
I do have some problems judging the descent of American Blacks, but I guess that is due to interbreeding of different descents during the time of slavery in the US. That said, American whites tend to be a weird mix, too :)

malika
17-04-2008, 15:54
Hence...GW need to do something about the facial features of their miniatures! ;)

Victomorga
17-04-2008, 15:55
Damage, Inc. you are 100% on point regarding the swastika thing.

that is completely inappropriate, no excuses. "it used to have a different context"? yeah, well, that might be an argument if he was modelling an ancient chinese army or a native american army. he isn't. he's modelling a nazi-styled IG army. don't tell me "oh, there are elements of the imperium that are similar to the nazis." so what? as was already pointed out, this game is not a historical, WWII era game. the nazis weren't just a bunch of fascists on the wrong side of a war, they were based around a strong and very clearly defined ideology of hatred, intolerance, and murder. and it wasn't six million, that was just the jews, it was between nine and twelve million total.

I wouldn't just not play someone with a swastika-sporting army, I would have words with them about it.

Obliterati
17-04-2008, 16:05
I'm with Victomorga and Damage Inc. A Nazi-themed army is pretty over-the-top.

I regard modeling and painting 40k figures to be an art form, and art is occasionally provacative and controversial. But a Nazi-theme just seems juvenile. It feels like an intentional effort to provoke a hostile reaction from other players.

I mean, hey...it's a free country. If that's what you want to do, fine. But don't expect many friendly comments at the game store.

The pestilent 1
17-04-2008, 16:08
This is a game where the "Good guys" routinely wipe out their own people for heresy, wage genocidal wars on Alien species who just want to be left alone, and combine the very worst elements of Colonialism, Nazism and Communism.
Why are you surprised at this?

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 16:09
No, and this is not a stance that I will accept either. Well, thats good. You don't have to. But if its something someone else wants to do, and in fact does accept, (and i'm not saying i'm one of them, I play Eldar for goodness sakes, and badly at that) then keep your pie hole shut.
Killing off imaginary people in droves is fine- that is called fantasy. Using symbolic representations of actual attrocities is not. In your opinion. I'm playing devils advocate here, so i feel i've got to step in. Firstly, as far as i'm concerend, people are allowed to paint on their miniatures (read, not REAL people, miniatures) whatever way they want. It happened, and its a fact of life. Just because you see it as glorifying a past atrocity, dosen't mean to say that the man next to you feels the same way. You need to accept that good sir. I can see your point, and i'm not saying i disagree with it (I don't, as it happens, not entirely anyway) but you need to realise that painting a symbol once used by the nazis on a miniature isn't the same as being a fascist or glorifying past atrocities. Thats some leap to make.
Regardless of what the swaztika meant at one point in time to the Indians, Native Americas, and Nordic peoples, it now has a cultural representation meaning something different and in a very real sence, evil. To who? You, me.. maybe. But there's people out there that it dosent mean anything to. At all. there's people out there who have a vague education on the second world war, and thus don't appreciate the sentiments you're trying to impose.
That is not something defensible by saying "Oh, it's just because the game and history have similarities." But, you activley play and participate in a game, nay a universe, where genocide happens on a scale never before seen in reality, and probably enjoy and revel in it, and yet have a go at people who might want to paint sybols that once represented 'evil' on their miniatures? This to me reeks of double standards.


Would it be acceptable for me to build a cityfight twin towers set with buring holes and people jumping off the roof, or do you suppose that might be a little too much? Would modeling pits of massed corpses slowly decaying in mass-graves be interesting terrain, Is that the same thing though? Or are you bending your own rules of debate to better suit your position and argument? Personally, I think you are a little. Look, if you wanted to do the above, then fair enough. Thats that persons choice. Its not for me, or you to adopt the moral high ground, preach like we're mother theresa and tell them they're wrong. Its a game, and its sentiments remain as such. You may view it as distateful, and in fact so would I. But i'd not lay down judgement on that person as a result of it.


It is a glorification of events that enters into dangerous inteleectual territory by trivializing those past events. I think you're being a little extreme. Look, we should never, ever forget what happened in the secodn world war, ever. My grandad was a Desert Rat and fought directly under Montgomery. I have his medals and i'm very proud of what he did and accomplished. He fought at Anzio beachead, t'brook and El Alamein. However, I KNOW that he would laugh at the idea of someone getting incredibly worked up over someone painting a nazi symbol on a miniature. In fact, I might give him a ring and see what he thinks to it. All i'm saying is, its about perception and personal interpretation. Personally, if one man wants to do that, he can. I'll not lay into him for wanting to paint a miniature the way he does. Its his property, he can do what he likes. That dosen't mean I may like it or think its appropriate. Now, if that person then displayed very nazi esque tendencies in their views, opinions and actions then I might be a little more tempted to wade in. ;)


as was already pointed out, this game is not a historical, WWII era game. So that makes it ok does it? So, you paint a coat differently and give em LAZORS rifles and it makes the imperium somehow differen't from the nazis does it? Naah. Not for me. Simply by playing a force like that with an almost tangiable likeness to the Nazis (and indeed revelling in it) is in fact as bad as painting miniatures with a black cross that was once used by the Nazis. The only difference is, one paints a cross on miniatures, and one dosen't. Yet, these same frothing hypocrites spit vitriol at the prospect of someone painting the said same symbol on their miniatures? :eyebrows:

Whatever.....


I wouldn't just not play someone with a swastika-sporting army, I would have words with them about it.

Why? Would that not make you as bad as them? Having a 'words with them about it', like you're some kinda tough guy?

Show some tolerance, rise above it.

If they have massivley right wing views and speak openly of the want to destroy all races not like theirs, THEN have words with them about it. That would be more appropriate, and would take more personal courage to confront a person like that too. ;)

What about Commissars, Inquisitors? Commissars are BLATANTLY based (physically at least) on the SS. But, thats ok?

Hmmmm.

Richter Kless
17-04-2008, 16:11
If putting nazi's in the game is bad.
Than the Inquisition must also go. The amount of death the real inquisition caused for some half arsed (though awesome) reason is beyond sense.
Or the Preatorians, whose real life variants murdered thousands of Zulu's.
And what about the Death Korps of Krieg? Should I start a little list of all the atrocities committed in the First World War? (both by the Allies aswell as the Centrals)

By turning something into a taboo, you aren't helping the people who gave their lives in those days. Demonizing and calling the nazi's 'evil', causes nothing but a growing ignorance among the common people. I, as a going to be scientist, find it outmost important that we can put ourselves above a 'pick a side' point of view and look at the situation without any prejudice to either sides. For example, never should people forget the good things Hitler did (because there are), because that will create a warped look on history that will only cause problems in the future.

My opinion on nazi policiy is irrelevant, what matters is that the nazi's were a part of our history (yes, yours too) and like any part of history, inspiration can be drawn from it for my 40K experience.

I ask you, why can I take the 40K version of Winston Churchill (Usarker E. Creed) but not a 40K version of a wellknown fascist/nazist? They both took part in the same war. It's just that Winston's side won and the winners get to write the history.

And last. The army on the tabletop does not represent the player. Otherwise, Chaos players would be insane Satanists and all the Eldar players would be gay.

TheBigBadWolf
17-04-2008, 16:29
I ask you, why can I take the 40K version of Winston Churchill (Usarker E. Creed) but not a 40K version of a wellknown fascist/nazist? They both took part in the same war. It's just that Winston's side won and the winners get to write the history.

That is our right as victors,

Back on topic, it doesnt bother me even the tinest little bit about them all being white, it wouldnt bother me in the slightest if they were all black. Its a game and you can always put a helmet on, then there is no problem at all

Mabuhay
17-04-2008, 16:31
maybe the white man killed off the other races and thats all thats left

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 16:32
And for what its worth, I agree with the above. (NOT Mabuhays post!!! ) *lol* Even if they were all portrayed as being coloured in the GW publications, I could always paint them white if I wanted to.

Either way, we have a choice don't we.

Müller
17-04-2008, 16:40
Guys.... it's a game, NOT a political statment on human races...
I do incorporate about one black SM for every 6 white... I do not go for asian or indian traits since I think they'd be too hard for me to manage to get real good..

Bloodknight
17-04-2008, 16:43
Space Marines are neither anything because they change their tan all the time (although I guess they would usually stay white because there being no reason to produce melanin in an enclosed power armour. Catachans should be mostly brown or black, and Mordians really pale - night world and so on.

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 16:44
I'm curious as to whether there are 'ethnic' Eldar? Since they were a created warrior race, does that mean that the genetic blueprint is pretty much the same for them all? Or are there darker skinned Eldar?

I wonder if the Exodites exhibit a more ethnic appearance?

The Eldar have different haor colours, but has anyone heard of black or darker Eldar?

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 16:44
If putting nazi's in the game is bad.
Than the Inquisition must also go. The amount of death the real inquisition caused for some half arsed (though awesome) reason is beyond sense.
Or the Preatorians, whose real life variants murdered thousands of Zulu's.
And what about the Death Korps of Krieg? Should I start a little list of all the atrocities committed in the First World War? (both by the Allies aswell as the Centrals)

By turning something into a taboo, you aren't helping the people who gave their lives in those days. Demonizing and calling the nazi's 'evil', causes nothing but a growing ignorance among the common people. I, as a going to be scientist, find it outmost important that we can put ourselves above a 'pick a side' point of view and look at the situation without any prejudice to either sides. For example, never should people forget the good things Hitler did (because there are), because that will create a warped look on history that will only cause problems in the future.

My opinion on nazi policiy is irrelevant, what matters is that the nazi's were a part of our history (yes, yours too) and like any part of history, inspiration can be drawn from it for my 40K experience.

I ask you, why can I take the 40K version of Winston Churchill (Usarker E. Creed) but not a 40K version of a wellknown fascist/nazist? They both took part in the same war. It's just that Winston's side won and the winners get to write the history.

And last. The army on the tabletop does not represent the player. Otherwise, Chaos players would be insane Satanists and all the Eldar players would be gay.

This is a juvenile approach to intellectual arguments. Nobody has stated that because someone wants to paint symbols of the Nazi government on their models that they themselves are nazi-supremecists. What IS being said is that it is an inappropriate thing to represent and is something that is not only culturally offensive but still relevant.

Yes the Inquisition was an evil thing and Games-Workshop does a mighty nice job of showcasing that as well as the various other historical entities that preached one thing while saying another. There has always been a heavily ironic message about the intitutions people build and how beauracracies operate throughout GWs material. This is a tongue in cheek look at a historical past, poking fun (in a dark humor manner) and powerful governments and churches on the past.

Where the line is drawn is when those things become offensive to modern people. There isn't going to be anyone walking into a game store and thinking, "oh my, the Inquisition stole my father and killed him as a heretic," anytime soon however there are still Holocaust survivors alive to this day. Regardless of the decades since WWII there is still a strong cultural memory of the attrocities commited there and the sacrifice made by many people from many countries that risk being trivialized.

Would you like to know why Ursurkler E. Creed is not offensive? Because Winston Churchhill did not have his countrymen rounding up millions of innocent Germans and putting them into camps to make them slaves, starve them to death, and perform medical experiements on them. If you truely cannot see the difference between Churchhill and Hitler, then you are in a sorry state of intellectual being. And if you would like to bring up the firebombings that his generals did order, then remember also that London was being bombed and rocketed from the Nazis at the time.

Now, as you seem to be saying that we should not be calling the Nazi regime evil because that promotes ignorance, then I would challenge you to tell us all what exactly the Nazis gave us that was worth so many lives? What great things did they do that we are in danger of overlooking due to our stereotyping? Are we going to adopt the same attitude that the president of Iran has espoused and state that the Holocaust never happened and that WWII was not caused because of the Nazi Germany's outward aggressive expansionism?

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 16:46
I'm curious as to whether there are 'ethnic' Eldar? Since they were a created warrior race, does that mean that the genetic blueprint is pretty much the same for them all? Or are there darker skinned Eldar?

I wonder if the Exodites exhibit a more ethnic appearance?

The Eldar have different haor colours, but has anyone heard of black or darker Eldar?

Well, not 40K but aren't some elves blue skinned in Fantasy?

Rockerfella
17-04-2008, 16:50
Well, not 40K but aren't some elves blue skinned in Fantasy?
Is that right? Well, I never knew that.

Some Eldar have whats described as an 'alabaster' complexion. Some are very, very pale aren't they. Sort of Albino esque.

Dark eldar have dark blueish skin too.

Also, if you've seen the cover of Farseer, the female Eldar warrior has almost grey skin, which is interesting.

I just think it would be cool for there to be different ethnic varients of the eldar race. However, that probably goes against their original blueprint as it were! :)

SonofUltramar
17-04-2008, 17:03
Another thing, as was just pointed out to me last week by my the token English guy who works at my local GW, is that when Fantasy came out, the armies all stood for a real cultural group -- the High Elves were the Southern English, the Dwarves were the Northern English, the Bretonians were the French, the Empire were the German, etc...
That would be why there are more light skin colours than dark, which he said never really came around until 40k...

Minor point but the Dwarves are the Scots with their crazy names and ginger haired Slayers etc.

Maybe i'm just in my own little fantasy world but i've always used various skin colours in a number of my armies, mainly Guard and Marines, but the facial features just look wrong as anything other than white but Elves have a predefined look that was created by an elderly white man many decade ago when the world wasn't so tolerant or perhaps accepting of new ideas?

Damage,Inc.
17-04-2008, 17:33
There was A model, years ago... one of the Catachan heavy flamers, the metal ones, had features that I would say looked more appropriate for darker skin.

Richter Kless
17-04-2008, 17:51
This is a juvenile approach to intellectual arguments. Nobody has stated that because someone wants to paint symbols of the Nazi government on their models that they themselves are nazi-supremecists. What IS being said is that it is an inappropriate thing to represent and is something that is not only culturally offensive but still relevant.


Yes the Inquisition was an evil thing and Games-Workshop does a mighty nice job of showcasing that as well as the various other historical entities that preached one thing while saying another. There has always been a heavily ironic message about the intitutions people build and how beauracracies operate throughout GWs material. This is a tongue in cheek look at a historical past, poking fun (in a dark humor manner) and powerful governments and churches on the past.

I don't really see this. In my eyes, the Imperial church and the Inquisition actually get glorified by GW. Great heroes like Eisenhorn and Ravenor come to save the day. Mighty Saints and rigtheous priests crush all the evil in the galaxy. I don't see how the church or the Inquisition gets mocked at.


Where the line is drawn is when those things become offensive to modern people. There isn't going to be anyone walking into a game store and thinking, "oh my, the Inquisition stole my father and killed him as a heretic," anytime soon however there are still Holocaust survivors alive to this day. Regardless of the decades since WWII there is still a strong cultural memory of the attrocities commited there and the sacrifice made by many people from many countries that risk being trivialized.

There is also a strong cultural memory of World War 1 here in Europe. But you will hear nobody complaining about the Death Korps. And the Valhallans, who quite clearly represent the Soviet Union, also don't get any criticism. Eventhough Stalin's atrocities far outweigh that of Hitler's.


Would you like to know why Ursurkler E. Creed is not offensive? Because Winston Churchhill did not have his countrymen rounding up millions of innocent Germans and putting them into camps to make them slaves, starve them to death, and perform medical experiements on them. If you truely cannot see the difference between Churchhill and Hitler, then you are in a sorry state of intellectual being. And if you would like to bring up the firebombings that his generals did order, then remember also that London was being bombed and rocketed from the Nazis at the time.

Personal attacks aside (you should be ashamed of yourself), I would never dare claim that Churchill did the same as Hitler, because that would be a blatant lie. But I don't see history as a story, with a good and bad side. I don't see WO II as a war between good and evil. I see a conflict between two clashing ideologies. One of these ideologies is represented by Churchill, the other by Hitler or one of his subordinates. I personally feel they both need to be equally represented and let the people themselves determine who they side with. I don't want a history book to tell me the nazi's are evil, I just want facts.
This, I feel the same with the model question. GW gave us one side of the story with Usarker E. Creed, but where is the other side?


Now, as you seem to be saying that we should not be calling the Nazi regime evil because that promotes ignorance, then I would challenge you to tell us all what exactly the Nazis gave us that was worth so many lives? What great things did they do that we are in danger of overlooking due to our stereotyping? Are we going to adopt the same attitude that the president of Iran has espoused and state that the Holocaust never happened and that WWII was not caused because of the Nazi Germany's outward aggressive expansionism?

Quite the contrary, the nazi regime was created by the unfair treatment Germany got after WO I during the Treaty of Versailles and the Stab-in-the-back legend. One should have known back than that such harsh sanctions would only cause misery at a later stage. It should not be denied that Hitler did great things for Germany back than.

But you're right, pretending it all did not happen is plain wrong.


I personally think this argument is based on a silly misunderstanding. Just because I design a nazi'esque Guardsmen force, it does not mean that I glorify them. I personally like to depict them as the villains of the story, not the heroes. My general Vidal (guess where I got the name from) is a pretty unlikable character,a typical anti-heroe, so to speak.

I reason I started this army, was because I did not like the way the Imperial Guard was portrayed in the background. They were always too good for my taste, lacking the Grim and Dark aspect. The only evil Guardsmen were those alligned to Chaos.
So I wanted an evil Guarsmen force, but one still loyal to the Emperor. I wanted them to commmit gruesome atrocities, but with the entire Imperium cheerleading for them.

And last, Damage,Inc. You appear to be quite an opponent towards the depiction of nazi iconography and ideology in the media. Than what is your opinion on a game like Killzone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvM7CJAoYT4)? My army is pretty much the same as the Helghast with the same symbol and the same style helmets (thank you Pig Iron).



Meh, in my head my arguments all looked alot more coherent.

Brother Siccarius
17-04-2008, 18:14
Would be great if somebody could post something along the lines of painting tutorials for painting different skin colours! ;)
http://coolminiornot.com/go.php/go/articlephp/levels/99/expand/all?
quite a few good tutorials on there, and at least one with helpful reference pictures of people from dozens of different cultures.


It's true though, none of the races and ethnicities we describe eacthother by would survive distinct across all that time and all those worlds. In cases like Tanith, Fenris, Valhalla, Mordian etc. it seems some worlds are of 'one' skin colour and sometimes 'one' hair colour, but of course there are also multicoloured worlds and every degree of variation in between, there's many thousands of human worlds.

The four planets mentioned, where one skin pigment is dominant, are interesting in themselves. The Tanith came mainly from a single continent, with an almost Germanic weather style, and lived mainly in what's called an Old Growth Forest that stretched across the continent. The Mordians live on a planet stuck in rotation and orbit that is half burning sun and half total darkness. The Valhallans live under the ice, getting only indirect sunlight until they breach the surface. Fenris is a planet stuck in it's infancy, with small, floating islands producing the majority of the population, and with alternating seasons of "fire" and "ice".


first of all, everyone listing non-white characters in the fluff, read the original post. I am taking issue with the representation of other skin-tones in studio armies and in WD, not in the fluff. if anything, the arguments you're making support my point; you are saying these people exist but never make it to the table top. We're listing characters in reference to a post that did take exception with the fluff, not to yours.


second, the word caucasian does not only refer to people of the caucas mountains. "caucasoid" is actually the appropriate form of the word if you want to split hairs, but it is a bit clunky and strange and leads to the introdution of the terms "negroid" and "mongoloid" which stray close to ethnic slurs. but I digress:
Again, see how many people with african or mongolian descent like being called "Negroid" or "Mongoloid". Each of the terms, including "Caucasoid" refers as much to an origination point of ancestry as anything else. Which itself is entirely flawed due to the migration of peoples, and the total likelihood that we all came from a single origination point of ancestry (whether you believe the biblical or scientific version).



on the subject of geneseeds: the process of becoming a space marine wouldn't change someone into a different race / ethnicity. that's ridiculous. over-all features may change slightly to resemble the primarch, but they wouldn't just excrete their melanin and lose all semblance of their original race/ethnicity.

Actually it does. Not only are space marines able to alter the pigment in their skin (an often overlooked trait) but the geneseed drastically alters their genetic traits. One example already given was that or the "Hourisians" who were Luna Wolf members who looked like Horus due to the way the geneseed altered their body's. I would even go to argue that Space Marine chapters make up their own ethnicities due to culture and body composition, which is altered even slightly from chapter to chapter.




Rhetorical questions to Random Warseer User: do you feel GW has done enough to encourage diversity (whatever that means) in it's products? How much is "enough"? Are you actually opposed to more racially diverse characters and models...or do you not care either way?

I have no problems with racially diversifying the troops. Do I feel they have done enough to encourage diversity, yes, and no at the same point. The main idea behind racial diversity is that you shouldn't have to encourage it in any way. It doesn't lead to racial diversity or equality, it overlooks the problems that led to the inequality in the first place. In GW's case, it would be the tutorials showing predominantly pale skin colors, rather than how to paint different skin colors (I believe there was a "How to pain salamanders" article in Codex:Armageddon though). Do I believe they have done enough, yes and no.


Would you still buy GW products if 90% of the human models had African features? Or Indian? Or Asian? Or Latin American?

I still buy them even though they don't have "Caucasian" features, honestly they don't have the total features of any known ethnic group. I certainly still buy the novels even when no one/few in the novels is "Caucasian" (Again, I reference Legion in saying this.

No, and this is not a stance that I will accept either. Killing off imaginary people in droves is fine- that is called fantasy. Using symbolic representations of actual attrocities is not. Regardless of what the swaztika meant at one point in time to the Indians, Native Americas, and Nordic peoples, it now has a cultural representation meaning something different and in a very real sence, evil. That is not something defensible by saying "Oh, it's just because the game and history have similarities."

You realize that billions more died under the symbol of the Golden Eagle than ever died under the swastica, and that includes the Nazi State. The Symbol of Nazi Oppression wasn't the Swastica it was the Eagle, though it's conveniently glossed over, even at the time, due to Americas involvement. Look at a Nazi banner, what's above the swastica, in the position of honor on the pole? An Eagle. You could also look at the Roman Empire, Eagle. Nigeria, Eagle. Holy Roman Empire, Eagle. Egypt used an eagle during the Hellenistic period. Napoleon used an Eagle.
Here's a list of all the countries that used the Eagle as a Symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle#Eagles_as_national_symbols)

In fact, if you want to look into recent atrocities, more died under the sickle and hammer than ever died under the swastika. That's the prisoner of war camps, the raids on innocent people, the shuffling of unwanted peoples and political enemies to Siberia to die slowly. There was as much violence in the ranks of the prisoners as there was from the guards as the unwanted were stuffed into overcrowded prison cities with your average criminals (Rapists, Murderers, ect). The guards wouldn't mess with you if you didn't bother them, unless they tried to escape, so there was very little guard presence keeping the happenings within the city from happening. While some nazis may have taken objects from the prisoners under the table, it was practically encouraged for the communist guards to steal just about everything from the prisoners. but enough on the most overlooked atrocity of the past century.

The position that the swastika is any worse than the Imperial Eagle that's on every bit of the Imperial equipment, or even the crossed sickle and hammer that's tossed around so lightly now-a-days isn't just false, it's verging on hypocritical.

jimbobodoll
17-04-2008, 18:20
Man, this thread is so begging to be locked for breaking the P and R rules...

Wintermute
17-04-2008, 18:30
This thread is going off-topic and is bordering on being a discussion better suited to P&R.

Thread Closed

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition