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macattac
17-04-2008, 23:46
In many older science fiction novels, the technology portrayed as so advanced and far out, that it seemed imossible. But alot of that technology has happened. So my question is, what do you think GW will do when the tech finaly catches up with 40k?(assuming that it is still around) Will it become 40k, modern warfare?

Obliterati
17-04-2008, 23:52
To be honest, much of the technology in the 40k universe is noticeably inferior to what we already have.

Templar Ben
17-04-2008, 23:53
Modern technology has passed 40K in most regards from a combat perspective. They will just say it is "lost technology" and move on.

It won't be like ShadowRun that had to reboot due to the fast growth of wireless technology.

Noserenda
18-04-2008, 00:23
40k is so unfeasibly in the future after a massive rise and a massive fall in human tech that its impossible to go on par with in our lifetimes... Youve got WW1 Stylee tanks powered by engines thatd make a physicist cream his kegs. :evilgrin:

starlight
18-04-2008, 01:13
Saying 40K is more *advanced* than us would be like handing someone from the Crusades a Plasmagun and saying he was *more advanced*.

With a very few exceptions, I'll take what we have, simply because:

a) we have far more understanding about how and why our tech works:)
b) we're advancing our Tech, not regressing it:p

We're far more like the Tau in the Tech aspects.

As well, in Stargate, humans/terrans are referred to as the Tau'ri. Coincidence? ;)

Rioghan Murchadha
18-04-2008, 01:16
40k is so unfeasibly in the future after a massive rise and a massive fall in human tech that its impossible to go on par with in our lifetimes... Youve got WW1 Stylee tanks powered by engines thatd make a physicist cream his kegs. :evilgrin:

You're right.. I'm sure there are plenty of physicists that would love to know why a nuclear reactor (land raider) has 4 exhaust headers, and mufflers, and belches smoke. They'd also like to know why said reactor can't apparently provide the power to fire the lascannons, and thus they require huge batteries. :angel:

starlight
18-04-2008, 01:27
Capacitors, they use capacitors. :p


But I agree. :p As with many SciFi worlds, the mishmash of tech levels is part of the appeal of 40K. :)

bdo
18-04-2008, 02:07
what do you think GW will do when the tech finaly catches up with 40k?(assuming that it is still around)


it won´t be played with miniatures anymore, but with holographic projectors :D

LoneSniperSG
18-04-2008, 02:14
I don't know about anyone else, but I would kill my own hamster to get even a real Dauntless Light Cruiser. Luckily I don't have a hamster.

The Inquisitor
18-04-2008, 02:22
I'm not sure if people remember the old fluff, but the imperium went through what they called the dark age of technology -- and then much of that was lost. It's an interesting background -- where they have very archaic technologies mixed with very advanced ones.

here's a link --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Strife

Chem-Dog
18-04-2008, 02:44
The Imperium uses lots of extremely advanced equipment (I mean, when was the last time you saw a Gellar Field Generator available on Ebay?) problem is that the few who know how to use it (Adeptus Mechanicus) don't share the technology. It's an interesting paralel with the Medieval priesthood.

Avaron
18-04-2008, 02:50
and they treat there teck like a religon so its tough to tell just how advanced anything is. there computers seem terrible but we never get the whole story so just how great anything is is going to change.

plus its location by location some inquisitors have some rather amazeing stuff whail some have a note pad and pen.

then again alot of that may have to do with the warp and demons as its been shown that the more complex a mechine is the easier it is to dominate, and AI are the worst you might as well just give it to them unless the AI is strong enought to outwit a creature a billion years old who litteraly knows everything.

Firaxin
18-04-2008, 04:33
I don't see why everyone's always saying the AdMech don't understand and aren't trying to understand their tech... we have all these stories of entire crusades being launched on rumors of a fragment of an STC piece.
The AdMech progresses their technology. What people don't realize, I think, is that the AdMech =/= The Imperium, nor are they its servant. They are not like the Grey Knights, or the Sisters of Battle. They are their own 'country', if you will, and the 'Imperium' is another country. Think about it, would you give up all your cards if it meant no longer being valuable (and thus consumed by the Imperium) or would you keep the cards for yourself and take half the pot (the current situation)?

The computers aren't that sophisticated on purpose, because of the whole Iron Men incident, as Avaron hinted at.

LoneSniperSG
18-04-2008, 05:09
Those Iron Men were pretty tough. Apparently the Titans were made to fight with them. ... Titans. Why the hell would you need TITANS to combat iron men when you have las and plasma cannons? It jerks my spine to contemplate that.

Adiem
18-04-2008, 08:48
40K in my opinion has more of a fantasy/sci-fi storyline, rather than a predictive one. It's based around giving an interesting background to play with, rather than really having a crack at what we'll be like in the future, so I'd say it'd suffer less from technology catching up with it than other sci-fi worlds, particularly since some of the technology is a little silly (for the fantasy element), for example - depleted hydrogen shells? Don't see it...

Burnthem
18-04-2008, 09:35
The Technology level in 40K is far far above what we can produce today, take the Lasgun for example, the most common and easiest to manufacture weapon in the entire galaxy in 40K is still completely impossible to build today, as for Plasma weapons, don't even go there, we have trouble building huge experimental Plasma reactors, let alone portable weaponry.

Try to remember that alot of the tech in 40K is basic because (from a fluff perspective) it simply fits the Imperiums way of war. Advanced vehicles and equipment will simply break when subjected to the typical use that it would see in the Imperial Guard for example. Name me a modern day Tank that could work constantly for weeks on end in almost every environment imaginable? There isn't one, they all need constant maintainance and up-keep to stay working. A Leman Russ doesn't need any of this, it will keep going whatever you throw at it. Plus you then add the popular idea that a standard invasion tactic of the Imperium is to blanket bomb the target world with EMP and suddenly the Imperiums vehicles are the only ones that work at all!

Don't mistake simplicity for primitiveness, a tribesman with a spear can still kill you when your power armour has a software crash (damn Windows 40,000!)

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-04-2008, 09:43
take the Lasgun for example, the most common and easiest to manufacture weapon in the entire galaxy in 40K

It's the least supply intensive personal weapon, that doesn't mean it's the easiest weapon to build. The various types of auto-guns are still going to be a lot easier to build, there downside is that they require more ammunition than las-weapons. All of that takes resources to produce and storage space, have to be transported etc. That is the reason the Lasrifle is the weapon of choice for the Guard.


Plus you then add the popular idea that a standard invasion tactic of the Imperium is to blanket bomb the target world with EMP and suddenly the Imperiums vehicles are the only ones that work at all!



Is there any basis for thinking this at all? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned. And of course, if EMP is a regular feature in warfare you could expect all military instalations, and many/most critical civilian instalations to be hardened/protected against EMP so it's really not as simple as saying that you hit them with a bit of EMP and then nothing works.

ichani
18-04-2008, 09:58
The computers aren't that sophisticated on purpose, because of the whole Iron Men incident, as Avaron hinted at.

Never heard of this part of the fluff, probably haven't been into 40k long enough, any chance of a link to something on it?

Burnthem
18-04-2008, 10:09
Is there any basis for thinking this at all? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned. And of course, if EMP is a regular feature in warfare you could expect all military instalations, and many/most critical civilian instalations to be hardened/protected against EMP so it's really not as simple as saying that you hit them with a bit of EMP and then nothing works.

I admit this is just a bit of Fan Fluff thats been floating around for a little while, but it makes ALOT of sense, if they added this to the fluff it would make a whole lot of stuff make sense in one go.

Promethius
18-04-2008, 10:30
The problem with 40k is that we are given figures (like the thickness of the landraiders hull in conventional steel) which make the tanks look a bit poor, but personally I think this is due to error on GW's part rather than an accurate representation of reality. Don't forget that the Tau (who can produce ridiculously powerful weaponry, and fight with modern tactics) don't exactly walk all over supposedly primitive tech such as leman russ battletank, unlike real world experience of tank combat between vehicles of different generations, such as the destruction of several older model russian tanks to no losses by challenger 2 tanks in the most recent Iraq war. The strength of Imperial technology is that it keeps working, no matter what you do to it, and there is absolutely tons of it. Modern day technology really doesn't come close.

Rioghan Murchadha
18-04-2008, 15:04
It's the least supply intensive personal weapon, that doesn't mean it's the easiest weapon to build. The various types of auto-guns are still going to be a lot easier to build, there downside is that they require more ammunition than las-weapons. All of that takes resources to produce and storage space, have to be transported etc. That is the reason the Lasrifle is the weapon of choice for the Guard.


I'm pretty sure the Lasgun is only used for a couple reasons..
a) They found the STC template for it.
b) Reliability issues.. Much like the AK-47.. you can do all kinds of things to a lasrifle and it keeps working.

I'm pretty sure it's just as supply intensive as any other gun considering in all the fluff you get maybe 30-40 shots out of an energy cell, which is pretty much the same size as a magazine for any other assault rifle equivalent in the imperium.

Bookwrak
18-04-2008, 15:30
Except if worst comes to worst, you can recharge spent cells by throwing them into your evening camp fire. Or a nice break in the fighting when the sun is out, you can just let them soak up some rays.

Carlos
18-04-2008, 15:44
The problem with 40K is that the technology is explained from the imperium's PoV, so to them it is archaic, but in reality they have pistol sized lasers that can cut through flesh, faster than light space travel, psychic powers, suits of armour that give you the power of 10 tigers and huge walking battle tanks.

The closest we have is Uri Gellar, the microwave oven and a kettle that makes tea in 3 seconds.

FeetOfClay
18-04-2008, 15:55
The problem with 40k is that we are given figures (like the thickness of the landraiders hull in conventional steel)

I've always wondered about this. How do we know that when the imperium says 'Steel' they mean the same thing as we do? They might have just found some STC that explains how to make some strong (but not as strong as adamantium),material with, say, an attached, but damaged, text file mentioning steel (as in, this compound is 10 times stronger than steel, but most damaged beyond recognition).

EDIT:Just pointing out, I know that this isnt the strongest argument, but, being a Philosophy student, arguing is a kind of compulsion.

Pokpoko
18-04-2008, 16:24
Will it become 40k, modern warfare?no.even if the tech will be similiar(although i seriously doubt anyone will waste resources on something as ridicolous as super-heavy tank or titan), it won't be 40k,because, let's face it, 40k is fantasy with lazors,not modern tactics game.even if we have the tech to make SM-like power armor, we won't give it to braindead fanatics with chainsaws to blast themselves into shards on minefields and heavy weapons.

as to the actual level of technology-if 40k army and today's army met on a field in reality, we'd win due to the special rule "laws of physics work here!";)

legio mortis
18-04-2008, 17:41
Advanced vehicles and equipment will simply break when subjected to the typical use that it would see in the Imperial Guard for example. Name me a modern day Tank that could work constantly for weeks on end in almost every environment imaginable? There isn't one, they all need constant maintainance and up-keep to stay working. A Leman Russ doesn't need any of this, it will keep going whatever you throw at it.
Actually, much like any other tank, the Leman Russ needs constant maintenance to keep it running at peak efficiency. The guns need to be calibrated, the tracks need to be maintained, the engine needs to be taken care of, ect. Every Guard tank crewman is capable of keeping the tank running smoothly.



Plus you then add the popular idea that a standard invasion tactic of the Imperium is to blanket bomb the target world with EMP and suddenly the Imperiums vehicles are the only ones that work at all!
While I can see the Imperium doing this, I think that you are a bit mislead when it comes to Guard tech. Guard tanks are filled with some pretty sophisticated equipment. Guard vox sets are EMP hardened and are fit with oscillating frequencies. The Imperium isn't foreign to the idea of electronic warfare.


The computers aren't that sophisticated on purpose, because of the whole Iron Men incident, as Avaron hinted at.
I really don't see where this is coming from. We've seen that the Imperium does indeed use some pretty powerful computing systems, and automated units such as sentry guns are quite common.

The thing that the Ad Mech doesn't like is fully functional AI. This is something that we don't even have yet.


The problem with 40k is that we are given figures (like the thickness of the landraiders hull in conventional steel) which make the tanks look a bit poor, but personally I think this is due to error on GW's part rather than an accurate representation of reality.
I do think is is a mistake as well, and it's been retconned by just about every bit of fluff out there. The Land Raider is repeatedly described as being invulnerable to all but the heaviest of AT weapons, and the Russ is able to withstand hypervelocity shells.



I'm pretty sure it's just as supply intensive as any other gun considering in all the fluff you get maybe 30-40 shots out of an energy cell, which is pretty much the same size as a magazine for any other assault rifle equivalent in the imperium.
The shots you can get out of a cell is actually extremely variable. There are some that hold 60 shots and there are others that hold 150 shots.



I've always wondered about this. How do we know that when the imperium says 'Steel' they mean the same thing as we do? They might have just found some STC that explains how to make some strong (but not as strong as adamantium),material with, say, an attached, but damaged, text file mentioning steel (as in, this compound is 10 times stronger than steel, but most damaged beyond recognition).
This is a good question. The quote regarding the thickness of a Land Raider hull describes the equivilance in "conventional steel". There really isn't anything such as conventional steel. If you ask someone in the metal business to use conventional steel, they'd laugh you out of the room.

Keichi246
18-04-2008, 18:28
I'd also have to pipe in that old quote "Any sufficeintly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." or in this case - religion.

Maybe a chunk of what the Adeptus Mechanicus says *does* work - but they are INTENTIONALLY shrouding it in religious overtones to obfuscate the truth from the plebes in the Imperium.

After all:
"Dip your hands in the holy unguent to purify your body and your spirit. Upon the count of three, touch the ordaned spot on the doorframe, and upon another count of three, chant the litany of access. Failure to properly worship the Omnisiah may cause the wrath of the Omnissiah to descend upon you."

is functionally the same as:
"Wash your hands in the cleaning agent so the scanner will get a good reading. Then place your hand on the palmprint reader, wait 3 seconds, and state the access code for the voiceprint recognition software. If the system fails to identify you - you will be shredded by the security guns swinging down behind you." :D

Or even that the "machine spirits" that they talk about are dog brain AIs - monotasked and non-learning, but far more powerful than any tech we have now. The tradition about not repainting your power armor to avoid upsetting the war spirits could simply be a warning not to repaint the armor - because you are likely to cover sensors that the limited onboard AI needs to properly keep you alive...

No - it's exceedingly tough to make comparisons between 40k and any other universe -including ours; because the frame of reference itself is possibly skewed.

Burnthem
18-04-2008, 18:36
After all:
"Dip your hands in the holy unguent to purify your body and your spirit. Upon the count of three, touch the ordaned spot on the doorframe, and upon another count of three, chant the litany of access. Failure to properly worship the Omnisiah may cause the wrath of the Omnissiah to descend upon you."

is functionally the same as:
"Wash your hands in the cleaning agent so the scanner will get a good reading. Then place your hand on the palmprint reader, wait 3 seconds, and state the access code for the voiceprint recognition software. If the system fails to identify you - you will be shredded by the security guns swinging down behind you.".

QFT

This is exactly how the Ad Mech operates, the knowledge is all there, but its just been buried beneath layers of superstition and Cult religion. A vehicle mechanic on an average 40K planet will have a more practical view on fixing things than a Tech Priest, but 'practical' isn't always 'better'. Maintaining a Warp Engine with ancient rituals, based on proper technique, is far better than anything we have today.

legio mortis
18-04-2008, 18:40
QFT

This is exactly how the Ad Mech operates, the knowledge is all there, but its just been buried beneath layers of superstition and Cult religion. A vehicle mechanic on an average 40K planet will have a more practical view on fixing things than a Tech Priest, but 'practical' isn't always 'better'. Maintaining a Warp Engine with ancient rituals, based on proper technique, is far better than anything we have today.
Additionally, in a universe where demons can possess vehicles, those prayers might actually keep them out.

TrooperTino
18-04-2008, 20:54
theres a very cool site about imperial tech... nothing official, but very interesting... things like the 'imperial EMP warfare' and imperial computers are described there in a way I like...

http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts.htm

especially this fits very well in this discussion:

http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Mechanicus%5D.htm

Johnnyfrej
18-04-2008, 20:57
I'm pretty sure it's just as supply intensive as any other gun considering in all the fluff you get maybe 30-40 shots out of an energy cell, which is pretty much the same size as a magazine for any other assault rifle equivalent in the imperium.
You are forgetting the the Lasgun has two powerlevels, the high setting that makes a *crack* sound and a low setting that makes a whining sound.
A single Lasgun powercell has the potential to fire 200 shots on high and around 500 shots on low. Coupled with this the fact that most Guardsmen are issued 3-5 powercell packs that require a second to reload and you will see the Lasgun is nothing like modern weapons. Oh, and after a pack is spent you can simply power it back up with sunlight or fire.

legio mortis
18-04-2008, 21:04
theres a very cool site about imperial tech... nothing official, but very interesting... things like the 'imperial EMP warfare' and imperial computers are described there in a way I like...

http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts.htm

especially this fits very well in this discussion:

http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Mechanicus%5D.htm
The "Philverse", as I like to call it, does have some cool concepts, but none of it is official material. Some of the Mechanicus stuff is interesting, but I'm not too keen on his take of the Imperial Guard or the way that Imperial citizens live.

SonofUltramar
18-04-2008, 21:37
As well, in Stargate, humans/terrans are referred to as the Tau'ri. Coincidence? ;)

Ah yes, we are the Fifth race and the galaxy will be ours, well once we get rid of all the nasty Goa'uld, Replicators and Ori, job done;)

Back on topic


and they treat there teck like a religon so its tough to tell just how advanced anything is. there computers seem terrible but we never get the whole story so just how great anything is is going to change.

the thing with the Imperium is that their computers may be really advanced but only certain people can do certain rituals i.e. access certain files or programs?

Just imagine the computer you have now and the information you can access via the internet but only being shown how to use Notepad and being told that anything else was blasphemous therefore in order to not anger the machine spirit you were to only use this single program? You would end up with a computer or laptop that was just a really large note book and would seem very clunky yet mysterious but a pen and paper would just seem easier so that's what the masses would use?

legio mortis
18-04-2008, 21:54
the thing with the Imperium is that their computers may be really advanced but only certain people can do certain rituals i.e. access certain files or programs?
I'm not so sure that I agree with this. In the Ravenor books we see personal computers being used, and we've also seen transport ships that were equipped with onboard personal computer stations. Computers in Imperial military hardware is pretty common as well.

MrBigMr
18-04-2008, 22:10
40K as modern warfare? Don't make me laugh. It's already arcane in design and purpose. It's always funny that the vision of the future is never anything like what it's when we get there (look at those old scifi movies and such). No body in the 50s imagined everyone to walk with a cellphone for one. Even Starship Troopers that was the father of power armour, never put much emphasis on computers. Pilots had to calculate vectors in their heads and instead of nifty scanners, a psycher would chart underground networks.

It's possible we never get anything that they have in 40K because we make better or different stuff. It might be that we'll never see laser nor plasma weapons, but something completely different.


But I do enjoy 40K on some levels. I dislike the general feel of the Imperium. Zealous society with lack of technologucal knowledge is ok, but the visual style of the middle ages (stone walls and candles don't belong in space ships) just doesn't appeal to me. Movies like Equilibrium show how a religious dystopia should be made. Just add some rain and dirt into it, and it's all right for 40K.

The biggest appeal in 40K to me is the psychic powers. I've never liked fantasy in any form, nor magic. But the Warp is something else. It's magic, but it's logical magic in a way. It's not magic, it's clearly defined and has it's rules and all.

I especially liked a bit of fluff where a small Imperial group infiltrated a Necron tomb. They used a psychicly enhanced bolt as a tracking device and a psycher rather than some small microchip thingy that they would have used in any other scifi universe. It's inspiring and has given me many ideas.

Tommygun
19-04-2008, 07:09
So my question is, what do you think GW will do when the tech finaly catches up with 40k?(assuming that it is still around) Will it become 40k, modern warfare?

If GW has a business model that will last another 38,000 years, I'll start pouring my 401k into it's stock.

bassmasterliam
19-04-2008, 10:17
Currently the Imperium is sort of like the dark ages In history where there were no technological advances for about 500 years. If there had been then we would be 500 years more advanced and then Lasguns and the like wouldn't be that far off.

BTW we have beaten the replicators, goa' ulds and Ori. now all we have to do is beat the lucian alliance and wraith (easy)

Rioghan Murchadha
19-04-2008, 18:46
You are forgetting the the Lasgun has two powerlevels, the high setting that makes a *crack* sound and a low setting that makes a whining sound.
A single Lasgun powercell has the potential to fire 200 shots on high and around 500 shots on low. Coupled with this the fact that most Guardsmen are issued 3-5 powercell packs that require a second to reload and you will see the Lasgun is nothing like modern weapons. Oh, and after a pack is spent you can simply power it back up with sunlight or fire.

Really? Where are you getting this? 200 high powered shots to a single cell? (recall, a hotshot is a single shot from one powercell) And guardsmen that can just hold their guns up in the air at noon for a second and recharge them? It takes time and care to reload them in a fire lest they blow up. Every story I've ever read involving guard has a typical las cell at well less than 100 shots.

My comparison to modern weapons wasn't that they're the same, it's that they are just as supply intensive, in the sense that you need to supply an apropriate number of extra magazines to your squads in the field because they don't have time to use a fire to reload in the middle of a battle. In that way, they are no less supply intensive than a modern assault rifle. In ongoing campaigns sure, you need fewer overall power cells in your supply train (assuming your men don't chuck them when empty, but instead put them back in their bags/pockets to recharge later).

Sgt Biffo
19-04-2008, 19:36
Unfortunately this topic is as well travelled as a Roman road in down town Tuscany.

*Holds breath and waits for forum moderators to open a sticky thread on this exact topic.*

Instead of joining the legion of "STFUNOOBANDDOASEARCH" troll's that ripped into me when I bought up an old topic when I joined a few years ago: I'll actually attempt to add to the discussion...;

Modern Warfare is actually pretty much what we are talking about when we conjecture about 40K's technology. Many confuse this with Information Age War Technology. This is how they fall into the trap of idealising about the possibly of MEGATECH supposed by Sci-Fi.

First of all consider the "Modern Era". 1900-1950.

The "Cold War" era was called the "Post Modern Era". And oddly enough no major wars were fought in this "Cold War".

The "Modern War Era" saw total war commitment under restricted manpower and resources. The belligerents relied on either advances in tech or the safe guarding of debt incurred by a belligerent by a here to neutral constituent (...or am I the only one who isn't unsurprised that the US economy took a nose dive a few month after the UK paid off it WWII debt).

The technology that evolved for war in the Post Modern-Information era was quite unprecedented. mostly in part due to the lack of super-power conflict.

A good reference to this is summed up in Gynn Dyers "War".

Consider the Strategic Bomber of the Modern Age. Capable of delivering crippling bombing at a long range. at higher altitude with a small force.

Comparably to the Post Modern Era Bomber require rarer resources that need more expensive, more labour intensive materials that require more expensive, more labour intensive refinement processes in vastly more expensive facilities by exponentially more qualified technicians.

A.) Resource manufacture alone requires highly trained and highly specialised facilities to fabricate base materials.

Production staff for these technological wonders require long periods of training and job specialisation to produce mere components of said advance weapon of war. The average trade apprenticeship for a trade is 4 years!

In "War" by Gynn Dyer he points out that the main Interdiction Fighter in 1945 compared to a contemporary is in the order of 175x the cost; after inflation adjustment!?! He further asks the question how many societies are 175x richer than they were in 1945... a fair question.

B.) Higher education and vocational training required for production of armament.

It would kind of suck if you bomber facility was intact and you work force was incinerated in a fire bombing mission on hab's over night...

But then again you've got to have a highly specialised crew for your high tech weapon of war.

C.)Increase training costs and time for crewing of said equipment.

Then you've got the increase of size of production facility for a decreased production out put. Again Dyer points out that the size of Bomber production yards at the hight of Reagan conventional armament was equal to that of Germany's at the end of 1945 yet the output rate was 50-1 in favour of Germany.

D.) Where is this leading to?

So we've looked at production costs and times and skill levels involved; but are contemporary weapons better. The answer is: OF COURSE! The average weapon system is 3 times as deadly at 50x the range (Dyer again).

So what is the missing component that eludes world peace in the face of such awesome weapons of war?

Limited conflict.

When was the last time contemporary weapons were bought entirely to bare against an opponent of comparable population, technology and industrial means? Russia vs. Afghanistan... America vs. Vietnam...? (to name only two resounding defeats with out addressing the question).

Modern Warfare. That seen in the 2nd World War.

And how much did technological advances truly separate themselves from "upgrades of existing technology". Putting a new system into a contemporary MBT requires much less training than placing the crew in a new type of MBT which incorporates said tech.

Hitlers obsession with high tech weapons is well documented, yet one of Nazi Germany's greatest expenses was trying to stop occupied civilians getting machine stamped sub-machine guns from the allies. Most other weapons could be over come by simple know how with available tech. The Me 262B- 1a/U1 vs the Spitfire is a classic example.

For all this in the early 1980's the American Reagan administration was beginning to see the futility of total nuclear commitment by one, or multiple, belligerents. The (in retrospect) fabled answer was conventional escalation to limited nuclear strike. The administration then set upon the conventional weapons build up eluded to earlier. War games were played out and projections and contingencies made accordingly.

So what do contemporary weapons of war mean to the contemporary idea of total war?

They're nasty, they're mean, they're expensive and they kill heaps of stuff... and so do the other guys. Prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO estimated that the 5,000,000 standing troops in the European theatre of operations would be operational for 14 days before reaching combat inefficient attrition. To rearm would take over a year... which is entirely academic because one or both parties would attain economic collapse insid 28-90 days before which total nuclear commitment would be optioned.

So how does the Imperium persecute a 40,000 year long total war commitment with out reaching economic collapse is the first 3 months of outset?

They make weapons that can be made anywhere, by almost anything, by people who have only recently been introduced to industrialisation. They make weapons that can be used by people who only just understand stored power ranged weapons within minutes of training and can be replenished with simple solar radiation or a high temperature heat source. They make vehicles of war that are easily and cheaply produced in their BILLIONS on a single planet and which can be crewed by peoples familiar teamed livestock with in a days training.

I guess that's why the OPENING PAGE (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) of the BGB says "...Forget the power of technology and common humanity. Forget promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only eternal carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsty gods..." and its been on page one for 21 years... and people still ask why...?!?:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

***RANT ENDS***

starlight
19-04-2008, 19:57
Oh that's right, go and make sense. :p

Besides, the Imperium hasn't existed for 40K years, just the most recent 10ishK.

DoomedToRepeatIt
20-04-2008, 00:34
Honestly, I see the future of humanity's military technology evolving more along Tau lines than Imperial ones. Mass drivers (aka railguns) and non-LOS active-homing missiles (aka smart & seeker missiles) are just two examples of weapons that are currently receiving loads of attention from US defense industries. Consider the bolter. This is a weapon that is basically a large-bore gyrojet. . . which is a technology tossed aside by present-day arms manufacturers because your basic mass-reactive projectile weapon is cheaper, more efficient, and more reliable.

But what gets me is not human (or even Tau) technology, because these at least operate within the bounds of the laws of physics; we may only be able to theorize the hows and whys for some of this equipment, but at least we think we know how it might end up working. What I'd like to see explored more in depth is Eldar and Ork tech.

The Eldar make just about everything out of a single substance (wraithbone). Warship hulls, personal armor, small arms, vehicle chassis -- whether it's rating 12 armor on a Falcon grav-tank or the flatware that they eat off of, everything the Eldar manufacture is made of the same psychoreactive-pseudo-plastic. Plus, we're talking about a material that responds to brainwaves and projected thought as if it had a mind of its own. Chew on that for a moment.

And there's ork technology. If it were possible, I'd like to have a sit-down conversation with an ork big mech over a cup of tea. This is a race that has the distinct (and unique) ability to use duct tape, chicken wire, and chewing gum to cobble together guns, vehicles, and even spacecraft. . . . that work. They don't know how it works, they don't know why it works, and they don't care about either. They just know it does work, and that's what's important. It's like an entire race of MacGuyvers.

starlight
20-04-2008, 00:55
...except MacGyver *does* understand the how and the why, which is what makes him so dangerous. :D

Draconian77
20-04-2008, 01:17
Forget Ork and Eldar technology, Tyranid bio-technology is the spaded ace.

Obviously never going to happen but it is still very advantageous over conventional weaponry.

You are right about our technology though. It is very Tau. We even tried the skimming thing but decided Helicopters where cheaper and just as useful.

DoomedToRepeatIt
20-04-2008, 01:23
I don't consider Nid "equipment" to be technology, because it's not something you can design, blueprint, and mass-produce. The Nids use biology, not technology -- their "guns" are nothing more than other, small Nids that fly, then bite, then explode.

macattac
20-04-2008, 02:06
wow, alot of good ideas.

hehe, maybe it just so happened that the nids were formed after an anceint human like race looked at a tabletop game and said "Huh, that looks cool, i wonder if we could do something like that." and it just spiraled out of controll

Draconian77
20-04-2008, 02:19
And judging from the fact that nobody can understand them it stands to reason the Americans created them! :D

Biology+Technology = Biotechnology! (Don't even bother checking the dictionaries, that is not the correct meaning of biotechnology)

I still maintain that it is a form of technology. Forced evolution is as much a technology as creating weapons and armoured vehicles because in this context I assume technology refers to something created from naturally occurring resources and used to benefit that species.

Firaxin
20-04-2008, 02:20
Pfft. We have bolters. Look up the AA-12 full auto shotgun on youtube or somewhere, it was on the 'future weapons' tv show. It has specially built fin-stabilized frag munitions, and the gun even looks kinda like a bolter.
:D Full auto frag shells. :D

Draconian77
20-04-2008, 02:27
Which sounds to me like it is not mass-produced and quite possible a byproduct of some other weapon design. Although in retrospect all weapons could almost be classified as byproducts considering the original versions never worked as well as they could have.

Firaxin
20-04-2008, 03:31
Well hell, we have railguns (and cruisers with the intent of being able to mount them) but they're not mass produced. Are we not talking about the future of our own technology, and what path it will take?

What does the current availability of something today have to do with that?

Draconian77
20-04-2008, 03:41
Well its just that if its a weapon of the future in the present it ruins the whole debate!

I think railguns aren't mass produced because we have not finished developing them yet.

If we want to be realistic about this its unlikely our military technology is even going to need to advance. We can kill each other quite perfectly as it stands today.

Hellebore
20-04-2008, 04:58
Another thing not mentioned much is that the better technology becomes, the dumber people can be to use it.

We shift focus from learning how to do something, to learning how to use a computer to do something.

Say for instance a modern surgeon. Send them 800 years into the past and they would have no idea how to perform surgery with the tools that existed at the time. This is because a lot of their training is in how to use modern technology, rather than how to do something directly. A lot of surger is keyhole these days. Imagine someone trained in keyhole trying to do surgery before the tools they were trained to use were ever invented.

The more we design user friendly technology that does the work for us, the less we actually have to know in order to do it.

I can see a future where the best and the brightest are trying to remember how to push three buttons in the correct order and that's the most complicated job required.

As technology advances, the less people need to know to perform a task. Unfortunately, overspecialisation eventually screws you over. If your computer ever stops working you won't have a clue how to do the job without it.

Hellebore

Logarithm Udgaur
20-04-2008, 06:42
I see this effect a lot in math. Many math students have no idea how to compute without their Texas Instruments.
As someone once said "specialization is for insects." I am pretty sure the whole quote is in someone's signature around here.

starlight
20-04-2008, 06:49
If not: ;)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein