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whitehat51
18-04-2008, 04:28
Which do you think is the more capable commander?

Marneus Calgar, the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, conquerer of two Tyranid Hive Fleets, Gauntlets of Ultramar holder, etc...

or

Dante, the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, ruled for 1100 years, headed the Armageddon Space Marine forces, fights from the front, halo of power, etc...

Who is better? Your thoughts?

centy
18-04-2008, 06:00
lol dante because he is the one who leads my army.
In a fight magnus would win hands down because he has 2 power fists, 1 wound to kill dante. How ever if you look at their total effect then dante is way better.
His powers that allow units around him to hit on a 3+ and reduce enemy ws and bs by 1 are very good when used correctly. The melta pistol is a nice touch to but he needs a melta bomb.

Müller
18-04-2008, 07:01
Calgar (I have faith in my Chapter Master :evilgrin:), apart from him being a BEAST of a man he is proabobly one of the most adept fighters in the universe (at least amongst those loyal to the emperor). And he also has endless courage and fight with great might and inspiration... He will fight boldly, and he too fights from the frontline, often leading the assaults alongside his honor guard.

Plus, he's just way more badass and has so much cooler wargear as well ^^,

Eetion
18-04-2008, 07:55
Calgar more Badass than Dante.... Never... You dont get more bad ass than a blood angels Chapter master... well... noy loyalists anyway.
But I feel that Calgars stragtegic mind will win out on larger scale wars, Dante in smaller conflicts.

But Dante wins on the cool'o'meter

Death Before Dishonour
18-04-2008, 08:17
it would be close but i recon calgar would win in the end, the Gauntlets are just too good

Müller
18-04-2008, 08:28
Calgar more Badass than Dante.... Never... You dont get more bad ass than a blood angels Chapter master... well... noy loyalists anyway.
But I feel that Calgars stragtegic mind will win out on larger scale wars, Dante in smaller conflicts.

But Dante wins on the cool'o'meter

One's postition has nothing to do with it, dante looks like a greek or roman statue, and he's tiny... He's not badass at all, quite the opposite actually

Koryphaus
18-04-2008, 08:34
They are both extremely capable leaders and warriors. They are both skillfull orators, capable of inspiring their troops to constantly give their all. I reckon there's no difference between them.

Ave Imperator!

starlight
18-04-2008, 08:40
Neither, they both serve the Emperor as they can.

Why the obsession people have with *Mine's better*?

Just different is all.

Archangel_Ruined
18-04-2008, 09:00
I'd say six of one, half a dozen of the other. In a straight fight on the table top, Marneus batters Dante though, I find it odd that none of the chapter masters have an adamantine mantle...

starlight
18-04-2008, 09:09
Salamanders have it under a different name that escapes me at just shy of 2:30am. :(

ctsteel
18-04-2008, 10:56
They are both formidable, but in some strange way I favour Dante, simply because he has to do what he does (chapter master), never quite knowing how many of his marines will lose control and succumb to the black rage, messing up his carefully thought out plans, and requiring him to deal with that at short notice. Knowing the flaw they all carry, and perceiving it as both a weakness and a source of strength. Feeling the loss of his primarch anew every time one of the death company talks of visions of Sanguinius and the siege.

Compared to that, the ultramarines come across as somewhat pompous and boring types. I don't dislike them and I'm not a BA fanboy so don't misunderstand me, but they don't have that same level of tragedy to them that makes the blood angels commander stand out just that little bit more, for being able to do the same job as their blue brothers with more of a 'handicap'.

pookie
18-04-2008, 11:05
neither Helbrecht would win hands down..... lol,

both are chapter masters for a reason, its like asking which scout is a better shot, a UM one or a BA One.

Dragonlv8
18-04-2008, 11:39
Marneus mingeface sucks.
Dante is alright.
The dark angels dude is alright
Helbrecht is teh pw3n|)g3 fool.

Just incase you didn't figure it out, I don't like Ultratools, UltraMinges and the UltraNoobs.
yea..

Lexington
18-04-2008, 12:03
Please. God. Stop.

downundercadet07
18-04-2008, 14:14
Old Fluff had Calgar portrayed as more or less an invalid. He was missing both his legs, his arm, and most of his head. He didn't lead the chapter in combat because even with bionics he was considered more feeble than the average marine, due to the extent of his injuries. This hasn't been directly retconned, but I think they are trying to move away from it.

Da Black Gobbo
18-04-2008, 14:20
Dante, some reasons:

--1 I hate Ultramarines.
--2 I hate blue armored marines.
--3 In spanish his name is too close to the word crap (Calgar-Cagar)
--4 Dante's armour is just great.
--5 Dante is better over all.
--6 Dante have been ruling 1100 years and still kicking some xeno/mutant/witch asses.
--7 I hate Ultramarines.

WallyTWest
18-04-2008, 14:48
Fantastic Question!

In my humble opinion, Calgar may be a decent commander and a fantastic figurehead for the Ultimar Empire. He has some major victoys under his belt and is in a better position do manipulate events in his sector. Sort of the rational choice.

But Dante is a Leader, he stands with the likes of Yerrik and Gazhull Thraka and is an pillar of strength to his chapter. He is a tragic man who battles for the legacy of Sugundus, while fighting the chapters most unholy curse.

Its unfair to compare the two, but if I had to choose one to stand behind it would be the romantic image of the Golden Avenger Dante rather then the cold warlord of the Ultimar sector on his high throne.

Sinisterfence
18-04-2008, 15:06
what's sugundus?

...but yeah, i gotta say Dante... and not just cos I'm a BA fan, at least 1100 years and still leading from the front, if not doing the dirty work himself
+ the whole fighting the curse thing..

Long_Fang
18-04-2008, 15:10
Logan Grimnar!!!

Hellebore
18-04-2008, 15:59
I would place Calgar as a better strategic commander and Dante as a better frontline tactician.

They can do both but they strike me as being better at one than the other.

Hellebore

Necronartum
18-04-2008, 15:59
Its a moot point to be honest. As everyone knows that Space Marines would never turn on their brothers in such a massive display of heresy. Such things are inconcievable........

Baaltharus
18-04-2008, 17:40
Well Dantes by far the more experienced commander, he took command of ALL Imperial forces during the 2nd war for Armaggedon (including the Ultramarines chapter and thus presumably Lord Calgar accepted Lord Dantes was better suited to overall field command), broke the Ork assault and drove them from Armaggedon.

If you go back to the original background for Armaggedon it says Dante has never been defeated in battle (and although this isn't quite the Dante we've all come to know and love as he exists now) I suppose its still officially canon.

This is not to say that Calgar isn't a good commander himself, he just doesn't appear to be the powerhouse that Dante is.

Müller
18-04-2008, 18:40
Well Dantes by far the more experienced commander, he took command of ALL Imperial forces during the 2nd war for Armaggedon (including the Ultramarines chapter and thus presumably Lord Calgar accepted Lord Dantes was better suited to overall field command), broke the Ork assault and drove them from Armaggedon.

If you go back to the original background for Armaggedon it says Dante has never been defeated in battle (and although this isn't quite the Dante we've all come to know and love as he exists now) I suppose its still officially canon.

This is not to say that Calgar isn't a good commander himself, he just doesn't appear to be the powerhouse that Dante is.

(I'm done debating, but to discuss fluff is always fun)

It's not that Calgar turned the command of his forces over to Dante, but the BA were the first Imperial distress that arrived on Armageddon, it was a while until Ultramarine and Salamanders chapters arrived to the system. and the entire chapters weren't there either. And of course the armies needed a local commander, and after all Dante was highest in command, no wonder he had authority ;)

Chem-Dog
18-04-2008, 19:27
Dante is the better of the two becuase he has everything Calgar has PLUS the humility of the Blood Angels.

Baaltharus
18-04-2008, 19:38
Well actually it was the entire Blood Angels chapter and though I'm not certain I'm pretty sure both the Ultramarines and Salamanders chapters arrived in their entirity.

Regardless of whether they arrived later, Dante assumed command of all Astartes, all Titan Legions, all Guard formations and all other Imperial fighting formations. He wasn't just a 'local area commander'.

In terms of Dante being highest in command this isn't necasserally true. If Calgar was there (or the Lord of the Ultramarines at the time or Salamanders for that matter) then he they held equal rank with Lord Dante and yet he was still placed in charge. Equally an Imperial Guard Warmaster could be argued to have a equal, perhaps superior rank to a chapter master.

I'm sure it says that Dante was given command because he was so highly respected as a military tactitian as well as such a noble figure to rally around (much like Yarrick).

Deadnight
18-04-2008, 20:28
Yet it was Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves who was chosen as overall Space Marine Commander during the Eye of Terror campaign... that's saying something...

Plus he has the special rule that states he's the best loved and most renowned commander in the galaxy...

Cheers!

Müller
18-04-2008, 20:40
Well actually it was the entire Blood Angels chapter and though I'm not certain I'm pretty sure both the Ultramarines and Salamanders chapters arrived in their entirity.

Regardless of whether they arrived later, Dante assumed command of all Astartes, all Titan Legions, all Guard formations and all other Imperial fighting formations. He wasn't just a 'local area commander'.

In terms of Dante being highest in command this isn't necasserally true. If Calgar was there (or the Lord of the Ultramarines at the time or Salamanders for that matter) then he they held equal rank with Lord Dante and yet he was still placed in charge. Equally an Imperial Guard Warmaster could be argued to have a equal, perhaps superior rank to a chapter master.

I'm sure it says that Dante was given command because he was so highly respected as a military tactitian as well as such a noble figure to rally around (much like Yarrick).

What I'm saying is that as far as I _know_ the entire Ultramarines Chapter did NOT arrive, but a large size of the force, and Calgar wasen't present as far as I know, hence, Dante was the "local" (local meaning in Armageddon's system) commanding general...

I could of course be wrong, but this is based off as far as the info I've been able to collect...

Son of Sanguinius
18-04-2008, 20:55
I would place Calgar as a better strategic commander and Dante as a better frontline tactician.

They can do both but they strike me as being better at one than the other.

Hellebore

Agreed.

I see Calgar as probably one of the best strategic commanders in all of the Imperium. Dante would be nearly as good, even through just the amount of time he's had to command, but Dante's forte would be leading from the front lines, inspiring his men (hence the rule), using the Blood Angels' darker sides to the Imperium's advantage.

Any army would be honored to have either one, really.

GodofWarTx
18-04-2008, 22:56
I believe all Space Marine commanders in the Armageddon system ununanimously (sp?) voted Dante as Supreme Commander. Thats saying something.

I think Calgar is wise enough himself to defer command to a leader who has been leading a chapter long before calgar was born.

Mad King George
18-04-2008, 23:11
Logan Grimnar

Bigbot
18-04-2008, 23:17
Calgar, had a much greater impact for me

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-04-2008, 00:12
Why the obsession people have with *Mine's better*?


Please. God. Stop.

Both wise and applicable thoughts in any 'vs. thread.'

Go the Chapter Master of my Chapter. :p

Hellebore
19-04-2008, 02:03
I presume the reason Calgar didn't vie for command of Armageddon was simply that he was elsewhere doing other things.

It's not like Dante takes personal command of every conflict every blood angel takes part in, and the same with calgar.

Dante was one of the only chapter masters on Armageddon, calgar was never there.

Sending a few squads or a company doesn't mean the chapter master shows up too...

Hellebore

Chem-Dog
19-04-2008, 03:12
I agree, the text that says the commanders of the other chapters deffered may not actually mean "Chapter Masters" rather than simply the guy in charge of strike force <insert suitable SM strikeforce name here>

Of course I may be wrong and it could specifically mention the Chapter Masters, but I am pretty sure it doesn't.

Peril
19-04-2008, 03:51
pfft, Calgar is dead. The "Calgar" around now is actually Alpharius. So yeah, Alpharius > Dante

;)

recceboy
19-04-2008, 03:52
Calgar has the right stuff to lead from the front, Dante well he also leads from the front. But, my 2 cents are on Calgar.

whitehat51
19-04-2008, 05:12
Its a moot point to be honest. As everyone knows that Space Marines would never turn on their brothers in such a massive display of heresy. Such things are inconcievable........
For anyone who is seriously looking at this thread on the absolute surface, such as this poster, let me just clarify: this is not a "who would win in a fight" thread. It's not about Power Fists and Terminator Armor beating Dante, and it's not about what if the Blood Angels faced off with the Ultramarines.

This thread is about who is the better commander, who has served the Imperium better.

Now, in that case, Dante appears to be the obvious choice because he's older, but think; Calgar broke the backs of 2/3 of the Tyranid Hive Fleets to invade the Imperium.

Hellebore
19-04-2008, 05:32
Of the two commanders you never see any frontline combat stories involving Calgar. All the background about his describes his strategic thinking and outmanoeuvring the hive fleets.

Dante on the other hand has a lot of combat in his background, leading from the front and bringing victory where there was none before.

Thus why I said Calgar>Dante at strategic command and Dante>Calgar at frontline tactics.

Hellebore

Soupcat
19-04-2008, 06:07
Calgar, because while kicking ass and taking names he runs one of the most prosperous groups of human worlds.

DantesInferno
19-04-2008, 07:18
I'm surprised no one has referred to this yet. It's from a Questions and Answers article in WD195:


Q: Why does Dante have a strategy rating of only 5? After all, he is meant to be over 1100 years old, and he did take supreme command during the Armageddon Campaign. Is this a mistake?
A: No it's not a mistake. Dante really does have a strategy rating of "only" 5. This is because although Dante is a forceful and dynamic leader, he lacks the deep strategic insight of commanders such as Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, or Azrael of the Dark Angels. This being said, Dante is an awesome leader, and the fact that he has been around for so long means that he is held in great respect and awe by his fellow commanders. This is why he was chosen as supreme commander at Armageddon, and is generally deferred to in similar circumstances. However, Dante is wise enough to know when to delegate jobs to others, and also when to take the advice of his colleagues. Thus, for example, if Dante and Azrael were taking part in a joint operation, although Azrael would defer to Dante as supreme commander, Dante would certainly allow Azrael to plan the operation and would listen carefully to any advice he might have.

[Caption to photos of Dante and Marneus Calgar] Just like everyone else, Space Marine commanders have their own strengths and weaknesses. For example, Marneus Calgar is a great tactician, while Commander Dante is a more inspirational leader.

Phew.

Hellebore
19-04-2008, 07:23
I'm surprised no one has referred to this yet. It's from a Questions and Answers article in WD195:



Phew.

Lol, I actually remember that being printed.

I feel old.

Hellebore

Müller
19-04-2008, 08:02
Of the two commanders you never see any frontline combat stories involving Calgar. All the background about his describes his strategic thinking and outmanoeuvring the hive fleets.

Dante on the other hand has a lot of combat in his background, leading from the front and bringing victory where there was none before.

Thus why I said Calgar>Dante at strategic command and Dante>Calgar at frontline tactics.

Hellebore

So the part of the very SM codex that tells the story about how Calgar charged out with all his forces to break an entire hive fleet and reach the re-inforcements is not him fighting on the frontlines? ;P

DantesInferno
19-04-2008, 08:40
So the part of the very SM codex that tells the story about how Calgar charged out with all his forces to break an entire hive fleet and reach the re-inforcements is not him fighting on the frontlines? ;P

Err... Not necessarily. Calgar was commanding a fleet of space ships at the time, and there's nothing to indicate that his own personal ship was leading the attack...

Müller
19-04-2008, 09:08
1, They we're on the ground
2, I've read that he as leading the charge himself along with his personal bodyguard...

DantesInferno
19-04-2008, 10:09
1, They we're on the ground
2, I've read that he as leading the charge himself along with his personal bodyguard...

I assume you're talking about the Battle of Macragge? Marneus Calgar was never involved in ground fighting. The reinforcements you mentioned were the Imperial Navy spaceships from Battlefleet Tempestora.

Calgar left the Ultramarines 1st Company, the Ultramar PDF and a Titan Legion to defend the Macragge polar fortresses and sent the rest of the Chapter to fight the hive fleet in space. The ground fighting occurred when the 1st Company was wiped out defending the fortresses, and later when the 3rd and 7th Companies were dropped from orbit to retake the fortresses.

Of course, the Ultramarine's Ancient was killed leading a counter-attack when Calgar's barge was boarded by Tyranids. So it's entirely possible that Calgar was personally involved in the fighting in space. But we certainly don't know that he personally led the hand-to-hand fighting on his ship.

Baaltharus
19-04-2008, 10:12
How do you lead a 'personal' charge from onboard a ship? How do you lead a charge on a very slow battlebarge? Quick answer: You don't. No, the only front line fighting Calgar may have seen during the battle for Macragge was perhaps finishing off the last of the nids with the space borne companies around the polar defence fortresses following the defeat of the Tyranids fleet in orbit or an even thinner chance of personally confronting the nids onboard his ship (although he'd have been on the bridge so its pretty darn unlikely).

Müller
19-04-2008, 11:02
That's not the battle I was talking about...

DantesInferno
19-04-2008, 11:04
That's not the battle I was talking about...

Unfortunately my mind-reading powers are not what they once were. Which battle are you talking about, then?

ctsteel
19-04-2008, 11:26
this artwork
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/16-big.jpg

would go to suggest he's led some sort of large scale battle against the nids, as the biotitans in the background suggest its not just a small infestation.

(Of course I realise it is 'just' artwork, but the art can be as much canon as anything else, especially when it is commissioned and used by GW themselves)

Eetion
19-04-2008, 17:16
How do you know their linking with reinforcements.... The UM have tangled with nids on more than 1 occassion.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-04-2008, 21:29
Sending a few squads or a company doesn't mean the chapter master shows up too...

No matter what your typical 1500 SM army list looks like. :p

Hicks
20-04-2008, 06:42
Dante, he looks cooler and he sure did save my boys arses on Armageddon.

Thrax
20-04-2008, 07:09
To starlight: in case you still haven't remembered, the salamandar's adamantine mantle is just called the salamandar's mantle (according to Codex: Armageddon). Clever, huh?

Remoah
20-04-2008, 07:23
Neither of them.

REAL men fight in Flak Armour.
CREED! CREED! CREED! CREED! CREED! CREED!

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 08:33
Doesn't Creed wear carapace armor?

Remoah
20-04-2008, 08:43
Minor techicality

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 08:59
Yeah... whatever helps you sleep at night. You know, besides the fact that a million superhuman warriors with the best technology humanity can offer and the ultimate dedication imaginable are always ready to fight for your miserable world. :p

Remoah
20-04-2008, 09:13
Thirteen...

That's how many Black Crusades have been HALTED by the Cadians.
Not 'detered' or 'slowed' but HALTED.

Anyhow... there is more courage and faith in one charging guardsman than there is in a hundred astartes.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 09:35
Hey, you'll notice I'm not complimenting the traitor Legions in my posts... though you did have some documented help from some power-armored fellas in the Thirteenth, and the others, I'd imagine. Space Marines can't go and let Chaotics run amok, it's bad taste.

But I digress. You might like this one:

Crazy Tom
20-04-2008, 09:42
this artwork
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/spacemarines/artwork/images/16-big.jpg

would go to suggest he's led some sort of large scale battle against the nids, as the biotitans in the background suggest its not just a small infestation.

(Of course I realise it is 'just' artwork, but the art can be as much canon as anything else, especially when it is commissioned and used by GW themselves)



What I'm loving most about that picture is the servitor guy behind the SM attacking a Nid with a chisel. Reminds me of the whole 'Zerg < Pitchfork' business. :D

Remoah
20-04-2008, 10:17
Abbadons sig.

________________________________________
My Armies:
Chaos Undivided W/L/D: 0/12/1

Ursarkar Creeds Sig.

________________________________________
My Armies
Cadian Imperial Guard W/L/D. 12/0/1

gamble
20-04-2008, 17:55
Dante is Best

LoneSniperSG
20-04-2008, 20:58
Logan Grimnar!!!

Damnit, I wanted to start that.


Dante, he looks cooler and he sure did save my boys arses on Armageddon.
Yeah. And Logan Grimnar made that possible when he saved Armageddon during the Second War with his great leadership.


Thirteen...

That's how many Black Crusades have been HALTED by the Cadians.
Not 'detered' or 'slowed' but HALTED.


As I remember, Logan Grimnar was chosen to command the defense against the 13th - which is still in progress.



Anyhow... there is more courage and faith in one charging guardsman than there is in a hundred astartes.

Outright heresy. I shall brand you with the iron of shame.

I'm going back to my ale now. I made an **** of myself enough.

Hicks
20-04-2008, 21:29
Yeah. And Logan Grimnar made that possible when he saved Armageddon during the Second War with his great leadership.

I'm not taking any credit away from the big bad wolf, but this is a poll about Dante and Marneus, so I didn't include him in my post. I especialy like Grimnar for how he is still super pissed at the Administratum for what they did to the population of Armageddon after the chaos incursion.

Oh and BTW, it was during the first war for Armageddon that Logan Grimnar liberated the planet with the help of the Grey Knights. Dante was actually the one commanding imperial forces during the 2nd war against the Orks.

Hellebore
21-04-2008, 00:36
To starlight: in case you still haven't remembered, the salamandar's adamantine mantle is just called the salamandar's mantle (according to Codex: Armageddon). Clever, huh?

You know what's even more clever?

The Salamander Mantle existed years before the Adamantine Mantle. When they redid the marine codex they rolled all the Index Astartes chapters together and took the Salamander Mantle and gave it a generic name.

Hellebore

Mad King George
21-04-2008, 00:49
dam i need some black library books to read.

any suggestions

books that included Sw will do :D

whitehat51
21-04-2008, 22:42
dam i need some black library books to read.

any suggestions

books that included Sw will do :D
Off topic; start your own thread for this!

I think Calgar is the superior officer. He has not got as much experience as Dante, but he certainly has the tactical brilliance that is a trait in Ultamarines, and he has displayed it on multiple occasions.

Lord Dante
22-04-2008, 13:59
Ok, my two cents.
For Calgar, see Smurfs Primarch
Dante, see Sangy

they are essentially watered down versions of thier primarchs.

So, Calgar is all imperial doctrine etc... and Dante is a bit nuts.

But both kick ass.

Obviously, Dante isnt a square like Calgar, obviously, and thus win in the rule of cool hands down.
Besides, jump packs, death masks, and gold power armour always win.

CrimsonTider
22-04-2008, 14:29
Gotta go with my buddy Dante here. Calgar is a good leader, superb tactician, and no doubt an excellent warrior, but Dante is so good he makes everyone around him better as well. Plus, Dante's old mini is way cooler than Calgars old ugly mini. Calgars NEW mini, in termi armor, is pretty spiffy.

Still, gold armor, death mask, meltapistol, poweraxe, jump pack... go to go with Dante as the coolest.

Chaplain Dionitas
22-04-2008, 14:48
Having been a footslogging grunt in RL for many years, I'd gladly follow the officer who leads from the front.


Dante

Müller
22-04-2008, 16:22
Off topic; start your own thread for this!

I think Calgar is the superior officer. He has not got as much experience as Dante, but he certainly has the tactical brilliance that is a trait in Ultamarines, and he has displayed it on multiple occasions.

Word... And the sole fact that he fought on eventhough he started to lose his limbs even more proves how much of a Marine he really is...

Wargear don't count for nothin'
Anyone can wield cool stuff, but not anyone can lead his forces to victory even when on the brink of termination outnumbered greatly and outgunned....

Lord Dante
22-04-2008, 16:26
Next week, GW will write some interesting fluff about how Dante held the line against ten trillion Ork war bosses, whilst polishing his helmet or somthing...