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Latro_
18-04-2008, 17:42
Just getting into fantasy a bit more at the momement. However the 40k and fantasy fluff intertwines I always have this concept in my head that the fantasy 'world' was a testing ground for all the races the slann/old ones? developed to tackle the necrons.

what with the rise of chaos this more or less left the planet alone with all the races there to battle it out forever.

I know this is just a theory in my head, please people pick it to bits as to this not being feasible because of fluff x.

Avaron
18-04-2008, 18:50
I have allways though of it the other way, that the warhammer world was where the old ones retreated to when the war withthe necronty started to go against them.

then again I still belive sigmar to be one of the two lost primarchs.

now I am going to go duck and hide in a hole before this thread explodes due to rants.

::ducks and hides::

themandudeperson
18-04-2008, 19:51
Interesting.. I always was of the belief that the WHFB universe and the 40k universe were in separate dimensions...

TheBigBadWolf
18-04-2008, 22:50
its an old thing, the WFB world was a cut off world in the 40k universe, where sigmar was a primarch, its in realms of chaos or something, i dont know ive never read it, but some of the oldies will fill you in, i remeber reading about someone in the WFB world dreading meeting a CSM.

Rabid Bunny 666
18-04-2008, 22:51
In the Liber Chaotica, the scribe working on the tomes is given visions of the 41st Milennium (sp) with visions of Renegade Marines, Magnus the Red as well as Cult Marines.

Brother Siccarius
18-04-2008, 23:10
its an old thing, the WFB world was a cut off world in the 40k universe, where sigmar was a primarch, its in realms of chaos or something, i dont know ive never read it, but some of the oldies will fill you in, i remeber reading about someone in the WFB world dreading meeting a CSM. Yes, in the Realms of Chaos books the two were in the same universe. However they developed the two into separate universes as they are now. Sigmar is/was a man, a heroic man, who is worshiped as a god now.


In the Liber Chaotica, the scribe working on the tomes is given visions of the 41st Milennium (sp) with visions of Renegade Marines, Magnus the Red as well as Cult Marines.
Which was likely more to avoid having to write two different books than proving that the two are the same.

In the end though, GW has constantly stated that the two are seperate universes.

Now they have to stick to that considering that they tossed the rights to make games in the universes to other companies. Which means that if they go out and say the two are the same, THQ gets to stomp on Mythic and Namco's toes and make Warhammer Fantasy games. Because if they're in the same universe, and they have the right to make 40k games, and a 40k game can also be a fantasy game, then they can make fantasy games as well and call them 40k games.

Lothlanathorian
19-04-2008, 01:47
In the Liber Chaotica, the scribe working on the tomes is given visions of the 41st Milennium (sp) with visions of Renegade Marines, Magnus the Red as well as Cult Marines.

The guy who wrote those books is floating around here somewhere on this forum and he will confirm everything Brother Siccarius has said.

Ward.
19-04-2008, 01:55
I've always had this inkling that the fantasy world was actually far in advance of the 40k universe.

This theory is based entirely upon the *treasure's found during the albion fanatasy campaign, which all appear to have been left there a long time ago and because slaanesh has been born.



:angel:




*space marine gear.

Iracundus
19-04-2008, 02:55
I have allways though of it the other way, that the warhammer world was where the old ones retreated to when the war withthe necronty started to go against them.


That is what I subscribe to as well, or something like it anyway, especially given the bit in the Necron Codex implying almost to the point of saying that the Slann are Old Ones with their reference to WHFB Lizardmen.

The existence of N'kari is one common focal point of detail in both WHFB and 40K. In the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex, N'kari was described as taking part in the Heresy and one of the first daemon princes to arise from a particular feral world surrounded by impenetrable warp storms where the native inhabitants still held out against Chaos. In WHFB, N'kari has the form of a Keeper of Secrets and seems to have a thing against Aenarion's blood line. This detail of form in itself is not a major sticking point as one of the gifts available from the Realm of Chaos books was to resemble the greater daemon of one's god. In any case, N'kari's details place the WHFB at some point far after the 40K War in Heaven.

From that, the WHFB could be a last remnant stronghold where a band of Old Ones (Chotec, Tepok etc...) flee to with samples of their projects such as the Eldar *cough* Elves, humans, so on. Surrounded by impenetrable warp storms, presumably set up by the Old Ones, and only two giant gates above the poles for acces, it might have seemed a good redoubt from which to continue their tinkering, only to once again have everything go all wrong.

Brother Siccarius
19-04-2008, 04:32
That is what I subscribe to as well, or something like it anyway, especially given the bit in the Necron Codex implying almost to the point of saying that the Slann are Old Ones with their reference to WHFB Lizardmen.


Seriously? You post this like every time anything comes up even remotely close to "Old Fluff" or "Slaan". I'm not usually one for doing this, but come on. It's from a hobby article that says that it may be used to represent degenerate versions of the Old Ones, not that the Old Ones looked like that. They just picked a model from their lines, and said hey, if someone wants to have fun and try a degenerated old ones decendents army, then here's an idea. I doubt they really put that much thought into it. It doesn't mean Old Ones all looked like that (especially as there's been plenty to suggest that it was multiple races, and not just a single one).

Since this has popped up, yet again, I give it a page before it becomes a flame war (as a conservative estimate)

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-04-2008, 08:40
where sigmar was a primarch

I don't think this have ever been supported by anything more than speculations, and in any case I'm sure his mother who gave birth to him in a perfectly normal fashion might wonder what had happened then...

Iracundus
19-04-2008, 08:54
Seriously? You post this like every time anything comes up even remotely close to "Old Fluff" or "Slaan". I'm not usually one for doing this, but come on. It's from a hobby article that says that it may be used to represent degenerate versions of the Old Ones, not that the Old Ones looked like that. They just picked a model from their lines, and said hey, if someone wants to have fun and try a degenerated old ones decendents army, then here's an idea. I doubt they really put that much thought into it. It doesn't mean Old Ones all looked like that (especially as there's been plenty to suggest that it was multiple races, and not just a single one).

Since this has popped up, yet again, I give it a page before it becomes a flame war (as a conservative estimate)

It's from the Codex and is as canonical as anything else in a Codex. After all, the Craftworlds in the Eldar Codex like Lugganath, Il-kaithe, Yme-loc etc. appear nowhere except as mentions in the "hobby" painting section yet they are still canonical Craftworlds.

DantesInferno
20-04-2008, 00:53
It's from the Codex and is as canonical as anything else in a Codex. After all, the Craftworlds in the Eldar Codex like Lugganath, Il-kaithe, Yme-loc etc. appear nowhere except as mentions in the "hobby" painting section yet they are still canonical Craftworlds.

The existence of Craftworlds in a Codex's painting guide is really nothing like a suggestion that players "could even have some fun by using a Warhammer Lizardman army" to represent the degenerate descendants of Old Ones.

You're taking a modelling suggestion and generating background from it. Suppose that the Dark Eldar Codex were to suggest that for modelling purposes Dark Eldar Wytches could be represented by Warhammer Dark Elf Witch Elves. Surely we shouldn't conclude from that that Wytches and Witch Elves really are the same thing?

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 01:08
That section isn't just purely about "modelling". The sections are about the Necrons and what plots can be interweaved in with them and in them they give more background on the setting. They give background on the Necrons and C'tan and their enemies, such as the fact the Eldar are one of the few races aware of the magnitude of the threat and that most of their engagements thus far have been in space. It gives the detail that the only true way to end the Necron threat is to destroy their tombs. It gives the detail the C'tan consider degenerate Old Ones delicacies. All of these are being arbitrarily discarded just because you seem to have something against GW's implication of Old Ones being Slann. Just because you don't like a particular fact in a Codex doesn't suddenly render it non canonical and untrue.

If GW were to say use Witch Elves for degenerate Wytches, then yes the logical conclusion is GW is implying Elves in WHFB being the biologically the same race as Dark Eldar.

Sir Charles
20-04-2008, 01:16
That section isn't just purely about "modelling". The sections are about the Necrons and what plots can be interweaved in with them and in them they give more background on the setting. They give background on the Necrons and C'tan and their enemies, such as the fact the Eldar are one of the few races aware of the magnitude of the threat and that most of their engagements thus far have been in space. It gives the detail that the only true way to end the Necron threat is to destroy their tombs. It gives the detail the C'tan consider degenerate Old Ones delicacies. All of these are being arbitrarily discarded just because you seem to have something against GW's implication of Old Ones being Slann. Just because you don't like a particular fact in a Codex doesn't suddenly render it non canonical and untrue.
Except GW wasn't making any "implications" as they have explicity said that there is no connection between the two systems.

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 01:18
And yet despite that supposed statement, and since it was made, there have been numerous references showing links between the two worlds. The very fact of the WHFB Lizardmen reference appearing directly following the sentence about degenerate Old Ones, and where it says to represent degenerate Old Ones with Lizardmen is implication practically to the point of outright saying it.

Sir Charles
20-04-2008, 01:26
Numerous? Some inside jokes with the rewards for Albion and a modeling sugestion to use Lizeardmen are not enough to suggest that there is a connection when the producers of the background have repeatedly said there is no connection.

Nazguire
20-04-2008, 01:49
And yet despite that supposed statement, and since it was made, there have been numerous references showing links between the two worlds. The very fact of the WHFB Lizardmen reference appearing directly following the sentence about degenerate Old Ones, and where it says to represent degenerate Old Ones with Lizardmen is implication practically to the point of outright saying it.

When I read this post, I could almost see you chuckling with glee, pointing your fingers together and snarling "Now I have you!" Monty Burns style.

When I read that section in the Necron Codex, the way that sentence is phrased suggests it's nothing more then tip to represent the Old Ones 'degenerate descendants' using the next closest looking models in the GW range. It doesn't state anywhere, or imply, or say in a secret code that "WFB Lizardmen are secretly Old Ones lulz". These Old Ones may look LIKE Lizardmen, but to say that they ARE WFB Lizardmen is taking the phrase way too literally.

Plus, GW has repeatedly stated that the two universes are not linked, connected or anything in any way. There ae some inside jokes (such as Albion) but that is the extent of it, nothing more then developers having a bit of fun with iit. Isn't what GW says canon too? Probably more so then anything else?

DantesInferno
20-04-2008, 02:10
That section isn't just purely about "modelling". The sections are about the Necrons and what plots can be interweaved in with them and in them they give more background on the setting. They give background on the Necrons and C'tan and their enemies, such as the fact the Eldar are one of the few races aware of the magnitude of the threat and that most of their engagements thus far have been in space. It gives the detail that the only true way to end the Necron threat is to destroy their tombs. It gives the detail the C'tan consider degenerate Old Ones delicacies.

No one has a problem with any of this....


All of these are being arbitrarily discarded just because you seem to have something against GW's implication of Old Ones being Slann. Just because you don't like a particular fact in a Codex doesn't suddenly render it non canonical and untrue.

I'm just pointing out that a suggestion by the designers that "[y]ou could even have some fun by using a Warhammer Lizardman army in a game of Warhammer 40,000" doesn't mean that Warhammer Slaan are descendants of Old Ones. Suggesting that I'm arbitrarily discarding a fact because I don't like it is simply false: what you're calling a "fact" is actually your own wild theory which has no basis in the text. And I have absolutely no qualms about discarding that.


If GW were to say use Witch Elves for degenerate Wytches, then yes the logical conclusion is GW is implying Elves in WHFB being the biologically the same race as Dark Eldar.

No it isn't! It's a complete leap of logic with absolutely no basis in fact. You can say they look similar enough to use the Warhammer models to represent things in the 40k universe, but it's simply ridiculous to argue that this means they're biologically the same race. I really can't see how on earth this is meant to follow.

Hellebore
20-04-2008, 02:17
My opinion is thus:

The GW multiverse is bridged by one dimension: the warp. In it, all things are possible.

The old ones from 40k are the same old ones as those in WFB. Not a multiverse version, but the same ones.

They discovered a way to use the warp to traverse dimensions and did so.

Whether they originated in the 40k dimension, the WFB dimension, or some other as yet unnamed one is up for grabs.

As to 'injokes' etc. Cathay is an old name for China. Are we to assume that because it shares the same name that it really IS old china? Nippon too for that matter.

Or, are we to take it like the statement about 'degenerate old ones' as a bit of fun? I supposed you'd have to determine what intent the designer's had for them first...

Hellebore

Brother Siccarius
20-04-2008, 06:48
I'm just going to step into here and say: I warned you.

Now back to:
Old Ones or modeling suggestion. #4: The Derailing!

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 08:07
"[y]ou could even have some fun by using a Warhammer Lizardman army in a game of Warhammer 40,000"

That statement was in reference and in context of using them as degenerate Old Ones. It isn't a statement in a vacuum or in the context of how to use use random WHFB armies in 40K. Hence the implication is clear despite some people deliberately closing their eyes to it. In the other discussion, there were some people who were saying they would reject it even if GW outright said it in black and white, indicating there is does seem to be some inbuilt bias against accepting Slann as Old Ones.

DantesInferno
20-04-2008, 08:54
That statement was in reference and in context of using them as degenerate Old Ones. It isn't a statement in a vacuum or in the context of how to use use random WHFB armies in 40K. Hence the implication is clear despite some people deliberately closing their eyes to it.

"You could have some fun by representing X with Y" simply doesn't mean or imply "X is biologically the same as Y". I'm not sure how many times I need to say the same thing...

You're drawing an implication that simply isn't there, and presenting it as incontrovertible.

Idaan
20-04-2008, 09:23
In one we have dead Eldar Gods and living Slaanesh, and Eldar worshipping the one god they have left: Khaine.

In the other we have living Elven Gods and living Slaanesh and Elves forbidding the worship of Khaine.

In one we have one Ork species with specialised subforms, incoded with genetic knowledge on how to build engines, guns, tanks, aircraft.

In the other we have several Orc species with major differences based on the their inhabited areas and we see no sign of Gargants, Shootas, Fightas, Battlewagons

How do you reconcile the two?

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 10:29
In one we have dead Eldar Gods and living Slaanesh, and Eldar worshipping the one god they have left: Khaine.

In the other we have living Elven Gods and living Slaanesh and Elves forbidding the worship of Khaine.


In the latest 40K Daemon Codex, it is revealed Isha is alive. Also the Elves of the WHFB world do not forbid worship of Khaine. The High Elves see Khaine as an aspect of the darker portion of their psyche, to be respected and used when necessary. They just don't let it dominate like the Dark Elves. That is a similar point of view to how the Eldar do so. Remember, the WHFB was presented as a feral world cut off by storms. Just as there are individual variations in beliefs between worlds in 40K, one could easily have divergence of beliefs, particularly of a very isolated population over a long period of time.

Also with Isha being alive, do we know for sure whether the Eldar are really correct in their belief of their gods being totally dead? To the Eldar they may have vanished, but as the Isha example demonstrates, that doesn't mean the Eldar are necessarily correct in writing them off as dead.



In one we have one Ork species with specialised subforms, incoded with genetic knowledge on how to build engines, guns, tanks, aircraft.

In the other we have several Orc species with major differences based on the their inhabited areas and we see no sign of Gargants, Shootas, Fightas, Battlewagons

How do you reconcile the two?

Ever heard of feral Orks? Both in the ancient Freebooterz days and the more recent Feral Orks of 40K 3rd ed., you had primitive Orks with little more than fantasy medieval style technology. The article on feral Orks also showed the ability of such feral Ork populations to exist at such low levels of tech on a longer term basis if undisturbed by contact with greater Orkdom. Having an Ork population does not per se equate to having those examples of mechanical and industrial technology.

Also if one paid attention to the Storm of Chaos campaign, the background and artwork for that depicted the Orks constructing the WHFB version of a Gargant as a giant siege engine for Middenheim.

Skirnak
20-04-2008, 10:49
Where has GW stated that the two universes are not linked? I'm not disputing it, just curious.

Reinnon
20-04-2008, 11:11
i'm always a fan of "different dimensions, linked by chaos" explaination - as i find it a bit strange that chaos exists in both systems (heck, look at the deamon codex/warhammer army book, the same deamons in both systems).

no physical link, but a chaos link.

kryptt
20-04-2008, 11:46
Since this has popped up, yet again, I give it a page before it becomes a flame war (as a conservative estimate)

Looks like you lost.lol

Sir Charles
20-04-2008, 18:18
He, did say it was a "conservative estimate."

Alessander
20-04-2008, 23:08
The new Chaos books have a lot of crossover material, including Isha. The WFB states that the immortal creature caged in Nurgle's workshop goes by many names in many universes (Poxfulcrum in the WFB world, Isha in the Eldar sense). So the WFB planet is probably in a different universe than the 40K setting....

It'd be kind of cool.... an entire universe, with nothing but a single planet smack in the middle of it. A planet with warp-spewing poles...

Voss
20-04-2008, 23:37
Numerous? Some inside jokes with the rewards for Albion and a modeling sugestion to use Lizeardmen are not enough to suggest that there is a connection when the producers of the background have repeatedly said there is no connection.

Its sometimes hard to convince us old-timers of that, however, since if you go back far enough, the Slann were the Old Ones. Not the servant of the Old Ones, but the actual Old Ones (or rather just the Slann, since this Old One silliness didn't get stuck in to the books until about 5th? edition fantasy), who showed up in starships, created warpgates, terraformed the planet and stuck the elves in their little island, and messed about with humans and dwarves.


So statements like this:

Except GW wasn't making any "implications" as they have explicity said that there is no connection between the two systems
seem funny, since the background seems to mutate at least once a decade or so. In another 10 years, things may come around again, and Drachenfels may kick the upstart Nagash out of his chair (as THE necromancer of necromancers), Slann will be Old Ones again, and Squats may once again walk the galaxy. And the Illuminati may yet sacrifice the Emperor's sons to restore him to health.

Sir Charles
21-04-2008, 03:22
Maybe, but thats not now.

graydew24
21-04-2008, 20:44
Call me stupid and destroy my theory, but my loose understanding was that the Old Ones in WFB were the last few that survived the enslaver plague (early daemons?), the fall of the polar gates was caused by the birth of Slaneesh, and the Emperor was a Sigmar reincarnation but much like Karl Franz and Valtin (if my spelling and remembrance is correct).

agio65
21-04-2008, 20:54
does anyone remember the first Siege Expansion?:angel:
at that time you couldīt play Marines vs medival forces ( 40K vs WHFB );)

Lordsaradain
21-04-2008, 21:08
Yes, Sigmar is one of the two missing primarchs. ;)

Latro_
21-04-2008, 21:41
eek didnt I open a can of worms.
Personally its obvious the whole 40k universe is just a rehash of what they initially did a few years before with fantasy. But it is fun to bridge the two games with cool theories.

This is why GW throw tiny bones only to snatch them back, or leave plots wide open with no conclusion, all to keep the theories going to keep people involved.

I remembered a one off game setup at my GW at least 10 years ago now with at least 50 kids, where by the imperium made planetfall on the fantasy world. haha it was funny, magic weapons as power weapons etc...they hashed the rules together somehow to make it work. One of those forbidden games.