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Sceleris82
19-04-2008, 10:32
Well, in the codex i havent seen any explantion to why all the C'tan are evil.
So,,,,why aint there a "good" C'tan ?

Richter Kless
19-04-2008, 11:08
What makes a good Cītan?

All they want is a delicious snack to satiate their never ending appetite.

If the Cītan are evil, than everyone who eats meat is evil aswell.

Johnnyfrej
19-04-2008, 11:08
The C'tan arn't evil, they just want to devour millions of souls and enslave the known universe. What's so evil about that?

grimsnagga
19-04-2008, 12:21
Appart from the fact that they are insane alien gods forced into corporial form for the sole purpose of making war... the c'tan aren't evil. They just seem evil to us because we are their prey. I'm sure cattle on the way to the slaughter think the slaughter-house workers are evil.

Supremearchmarshal
19-04-2008, 12:51
C'tan are not Imperium.

Imperium = good
not Imperium = evil

Therefore, C'tan = evil.

grimsnagga
19-04-2008, 12:53
Imperium = lesser evil
not Imperium = greater evil

:)

Hellebore
19-04-2008, 13:05
Imperium = lesser evil
not Imperium = greater evil

:)

Relative to an Imperial Human of course...

Hellebore

DapperAnarchist
19-04-2008, 13:56
I've heard the explanation that it was because their first contact with consciousness, the contact that shaped them, was with the Necrontyr, an embittered and violently genocidal race who had just lost a galactic war, which they started out of jealousy.

downundercadet07
19-04-2008, 14:05
Meh, the only defense for them not being outrageously evil is the tired old 'moral relativism' chestnut. I feel that it has been debunked enough times by people far more qualified in such things than me.

Kronos
19-04-2008, 14:17
haven't read the Codex yet but i would not classify C'tan as evil, but more power hungry, not content with just enslaving the Necrontyr so they want more souls, am i right ? :confused:


im also curious, are there any other C'tan in terms of fluff and strories apart from the Deciever and Nightbringer ?

toxic_wisdom
19-04-2008, 14:23
"...im also curious, are there any other C'tan in terms of fluff and strories apart from the Deciever and Nightbringer ?.."

Two others: The Outsider and the Void Dragon - neither of which have any game mechanics at this time other than fluff and rumors that tie them to the current 40K universe.

Souleater
19-04-2008, 14:34
They aren't evil, it is just that suns are like giant cans of Sunny Dee.

Have you seen what that stuff does to kids?

Now think of a god on that stuff.

DapperAnarchist
19-04-2008, 15:17
And mortals are like jelly beans...

Simon Sez
19-04-2008, 15:57
What you and I think of as "good" is completely irrelevant. We are food to them, and each has its own distinct preferences to flavour; fear, delusion, despair. . . Yum yum!

(I'm not sure how far the predominant emotion affects the taste of life-energy, I imagine it's primarily chemical)

Who knows, perhaps before they turned upon themselves there was a C'Tan who delighted in the taste of happiness or bliss, and thus farmed its mortal chattel as The Deceiver farmed the Silvan (spelling?) to heighten their feelings of contentment before feeding. However no matter the prevaling emotion the farmer is still evil; it is eating Humans!!

Did anyone reading this watch Angel? One of the primary antagonists on that was a powerful being named Jasmine (I believe she was a godess, yes?) who behaved in a similar way to the method described above, she still had to go though.

Chaplain of Chaos
19-04-2008, 16:08
C'tan are evil from our perspective because if an ancient alien energy being wanted nothing from you other than your life energy... you'd be pretty unhappy about it.

It's a predator=prey thing. We are essentially chickens in a giant galaxy wide chicken coop and the C'tan are the farmers that come to eat us. Now if chickens where sentient...

DapperAnarchist
19-04-2008, 16:31
And there's only 4 left, from a billion year conflict that fluctuated from all out war against the Old Ones, to war against the creations, to civil war plus harvesting, to trying to fight back the Enslaver Plague, to retreat into hibernation. Happy-clappy hippy C'Tan don't last.

Eetion
19-04-2008, 17:37
There not evil... just misunderstood.

azimaith
19-04-2008, 17:43
The C'tan are "evil" because thats the natural state of life. They're like massive children. They want what *they* want. They don't care what you want, they are only self serving. They were never taught otherwise. Children are taught to share, to consider others and to play nice. The C'tan just want what they want, nothing else matters to them. They like the way mortal essence tastes, especially when its wracked with terror, so they go get mortals and terrify them then eat their essence. They get fed, thats what matters.

You might not consider them evil so much as incredibly base and selfish. They just do what they want and to hell with anyone else.

Burning Star IV
19-04-2008, 19:00
Anyone read anything by H.P. Lovecraft? The C'tan remind me of many of his writings. One line in particular stands out, something like "possessing an otherworldly intellect which transcends good and evil, and simply is". Not spot on, but thats the gist of it.

So no they aren't evil because they are above such limited concepts of human comprehension.

Either way, yeah, shoot 'em.

Supremearchmarshal
19-04-2008, 19:29
Anyone read anything by H.P. Lovecraft? The C'tan remind me of many of his writings. One line in particular stands out, something like "possessing an otherworldly intellect which transcends good and evil, and simply is". Not spot on, but thats the gist of it.

So no they aren't evil because they are above such limited concepts of human comprehension.

Either way, yeah, shoot 'em.

Yeah, and Lovecraft implies humanity is better off sticking to the good/evil scheme I outlined above. ;)

TimLeeson
19-04-2008, 19:48
I think its impossible to attribute "human" morality to "aliens". They arent good or evil, they have their own morality like all the other xenos IMO.

Oelitto
19-04-2008, 20:10
It's not evil to view the galaxy as a giant take out resturant. they're just very very hungry.

Kurisu313
19-04-2008, 20:30
In what way are the C'tan evil? They're just predators. I wonder if cows think humans are evil?

Sceleris82
19-04-2008, 21:37
I disagree, they do what they do for their personal enjoyment, and pay no heed to the suffering they inflict upon others.
Nightbringer loves to feast thats true, and finds his meal to be better if its terrified. But he also loves the fact that he is feared, hence he made everyone execpt the orcs fear death, and not because he was about to feed or anythnig, but cause he could.

The decivier loves to cause mischief and betray and etc, not so much eating souls.

So i would compare them to a human psychopath, which does what he wants and could care less about other beings.
And i do clasify people like that as evil.

But if you wanna call it somthing else than evil go ahead, maybe uhm destructive by nature ? Or some other term.

I just dont understand why there wouldnt be a Ctan which actully had a working moral compas.

Ps: And regarding the people saying we are chickens and they like chicken and etc thats fine.
But then a more precise way to compare them would be, C'tan are people who loves to torture the chicken first since it makes the meat a bit more tender. And yes i do find that evil.

Kurisu313
19-04-2008, 21:50
The reason that the C'tan don't have morals is because morality is an evolutionary trait bred into social animals to help us work together and therefore survive.

The C'tan are NOT social animals. They are essentially energy-based lifeforms that feed off stars, and now, organisms. To them, things that benefit only themselves and gives them enjoyment (even at other's expense) IS moral.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-04-2008, 21:52
they just want to devour millions of souls


so they want more souls[QUOTE]

Eh... life essence is a far cry from the warp-essence of a being. This is one of my axes, mind if I grind it?

[QUOTE=Richter Kless;2537513]If the Cītan are evil, than everyone who eats meat is evil aswell.

Well, I'm evil then.


There not evil... just misunderstood.

Yeah... they were abused as children, and their parents didn't love them enough, and then there were the drugs, and soon they'll go into rehab and apologize for everything.


I think its impossible to attribute "human" morality to "aliens". They arent good or evil, they have their own morality like all the other xenos IMO.

Ah, relative morality. Personally, I find the idea, when applied as a standard, to be... unproductive. So, basically, because we can't agree completely on what's right and wrong, no one can be right? :eyebrows: It's, to be honest, silly.

Just because someone disagrees with me that the sky is not (to the vast majority of human eyes on your standard sunny day with a negligible amount of pollution, etc.) blue, doesn't make them right. The same principle can be applied here, the topic is only different in its abstraction.

Lastie
19-04-2008, 21:57
The next time one of us pours boiling water down an ant's nest because those pesky ants were invading your fridge again, just spare a thought for those poor ants who probably view you as absolutely evil mass-murdering spawn of whatever passes for Satan in ant mythology. :p

It's a perspective thing. To us, the C'tan are undeniably evi. To them, they're so awesome the entire universe bows down in worship of them. Any who don't; they make.

khirsath
19-04-2008, 22:01
So some of the C'tan are like people who eat veal. ;)
They're like those who would rather not have free range, or cage free meat cause it 'tastes' better. At least the C'tan don't kid themselves about how their tastiest meals are treated. I can see PETA protesters lining up outside a monolith... :rolleyes:

DapperAnarchist
19-04-2008, 22:46
The reason that the C'tan don't have morals is because morality is an evolutionary trait bred into social animals to help us work together and therefore survive.

oooh, touch on my future career... Morality (or Ethics perhaps...) is a hell of a lot more than social consensus or evolutionary programming. The 40K universe simply doesn't accept any morality or ethics beyond species-centric egotism, partly due to the requirements of survival.

MasterDecoy
19-04-2008, 22:51
perhaps there where once good c'tan, that got eaten by the bad c'tan.

or perhaps they're just big orks.... (after all, the deciever is brutally cunning, and the nightbringer is cunningly brutal)

Kandarin
20-04-2008, 06:00
The remaining C'tan are the survivors of a bloody, cosmic war that all but annihilated their race. Perhaps at one point there were C'tan that were, if certainly not benevolent, relatively placid and willing to live and let live with regard to the state of the galaxy and perform their depradations at a saner pace. Perhaps there were once C'tan that were not hell-bent on the elimination of the Eldar and company and were willing to tolerate them for personal gain. Indeed, I believe Khaine is described as fighting both against and alongside the Yngir in some fluff. Even so, any such C'tan are dead now, devoured by their more ruthless cousins or killed in battle by the creations of the Old Ones.

Only the most brutal, aggressive, and greedy of the C'tan survived, and they now make up the entirety of their race. That's why all of the C'tan are 'evil'.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 06:53
So good guys always die in 40k. What news? ;)

Poor Tau. :evilgrin:

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 08:23
Prior to contact with Necrontyr, the C'tan seem to have had no society to speak of. They were just lone star feeders. It is possible they also had no idea of the concept of death given their effectively immortal lifespans given sufficient energy to live off of, which would have been plentiful with stars. You thus have creatures who have no concept of social rules, no experience of having to restrain one's desires for anything or anyone, and no experience of coexisting with other beings or individuals. Then, when incarnate in their necrodermis bodies, they have these vast powers compared to other species, who more often than not get down and grovel or seek favor. Great power with little need to be responsible = recipe for formation of unbalanced personalities. Add to that the incredible new world of things to do compared to their old existence of just eating stars and moving to a new star, and it isn't surprising the C'tan develop their own obsessions with certain ideas or actions, like the Deceiver or the Nightbringer.

Xandros
20-04-2008, 08:46
Iracundus beat me to it. As star-vampires the C'tan knew only hunger.With their incarnation in physical bodies the game changed. It's not that their motives are unfathomable to us. We understand them only too well; Every mortal sin married to immortality and near unlimited power.

The star-gods should never have been able to walk among men.

Sceleris82
20-04-2008, 09:29
Aight hmm point taken.
Another question though, is there any clear indication that The Dragon is "evil", bent on feeding and killing.

Im aware he is being fed souls, but well he has to live, but is there any indication that his goal is to destroy humanity or somthing like that ?
Or could he end up fighting his fellow C'tan not for the sake of humanity ofcourse, but maybe because he dislikes them ?

DantesInferno
20-04-2008, 09:55
Aight hmm point taken.
Another question though, is there any clear indication that The Dragon is "evil", bent on feeding and killing.

Well....the Dragon did ruthlessly butcher the Eldar during the War in Heaven. It's certainly capable of slaughtering mortals when it turns it's mind to it.


Or could he end up fighting his fellow C'tan not for the sake of humanity ofcourse, but maybe because he dislikes them ?

That's entirely possible. The Deceiver (in his guise as Magos Reston Egal) has already taken steps to prevent the Dragon from awakening....


Im aware he is being fed souls, but well he has to live, but is there any indication that his goal is to destroy humanity or somthing like that ?

Might as well get in before Imperialis_Dominatus does...

The C'tan don't eat souls. Souls, in typical 40k parlance, are a person's warp essence.

The C'tan eat the purely physical "life essences" of mortals: their energy and matter. This is why the daemon talking to Abaddon in the Necron Codex comments that the souls of the Dragon's victims are being cast adrift in the warp for daemons to feast on.

EDIT: Muhahaha! Better luck next time, Imperialis_Dominatus....

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 09:56
Aight hmm point taken.
Another question though, is there any clear indication that The Dragon is "evil", bent on feeding and killing.

Im aware he is being fed souls, but well he has to live, but is there any indication that his goal is to destroy humanity or somthing like that ?
Or could he end up fighting his fellow C'tan not for the sake of humanity ofcourse, but maybe because he dislikes them ?

He's not being fed souls, it's a biological sort of energy. Souls imply Warp, and C'tan don't like Warp.

Interesting idea, but I think that given their history, it's safe to assume that the C'tan have been whittled down to the insanely hungry and selfish individuals we know today. I'm fairly certain all the C'tan have some level of animosity in their dealings with one another, but as long as they have a common enemy (or food source) I don't think that will be as much of an issue as it once was, when there were more than four.

This is just my interpretation of the background, though.


Might as well get in before Imperialis_Dominatus does...

Quick, boys, douse the light, we've been caught!

DapperAnarchist
20-04-2008, 09:56
All 4 will end up fighting each other again. It happened before, it'll happen again. Read the Farseer's vision from the Necron Codex - they mark their herds, these aren't somesort of commie share-fest star vampires.

The Dragon's goal is to separate the Warp from Realspace entirely, and enslave all sentient beings to his hunger. If the other 3 happen to be useful in that, so be it. Eventually, they will get in the way, and be crushed by the Armies of the Void Dragon.

Can you tell I like the Dragon?

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 09:58
Well, it's the goal of all C'tan to cut off the Warp from realspace. But the Dragon is noted as the most powerful in fluff IIRC, I'll give you that. When he wakes up... everything dies. Ugh.

Iracundus
20-04-2008, 10:20
That's entirely possible. The Deceiver (in his guise as Magos Reston Egal) has already taken steps to prevent the Dragon from awakening....


His motive for doing so is far more likely to be self interest rather than any idea of wanting to help humans. Consider that the Deceiver is the weakest C'tan, even when there were more than 4 C'tan, and the Void Dragon supposedly the strongest. The Deceiver could easily find itself being the first target for a newly awakened Dragon. The Deceiver's actions in his Tech Priest disguise were also reactionary after the attempted Necron raid on Mars got perilously close to the Dragon's resting place, implaying those Necrons might have been Dragon followers.

However in the Necron Codex it also mentions how the C'tan ultimately recognize the need to work together in order to seal off the warp (at least in a good chunk of this galaxy) from realspace. Thus I don't see the Deceiver indefinitely stalling or stopping Dragon's awakening. It is possible he is just playing for time in order to consolidate his power base and position so that when the Dragon finally wakes, the Deceiver isn't in a position of weakness.

DantesInferno
20-04-2008, 11:07
His motive for doing so is far more likely to be self interest rather than any idea of wanting to help humans. Consider that the Deceiver is the weakest C'tan, even when there were more than 4 C'tan, and the Void Dragon supposedly the strongest. The Deceiver could easily find itself being the first target for a newly awakened Dragon. The Deceiver's actions in his Tech Priest disguise were also reactionary after the attempted Necron raid on Mars got perilously close to the Dragon's resting place, implaying those Necrons might have been Dragon followers.

However in the Necron Codex it also mentions how the C'tan ultimately recognize the need to work together in order to seal off the warp (at least in a good chunk of this galaxy) from realspace. Thus I don't see the Deceiver indefinitely stalling or stopping Dragon's awakening. It is possible he is just playing for time in order to consolidate his power base and position so that when the Dragon finally wakes, the Deceiver isn't in a position of weakness.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Sceleris82 asked whether the Dragon could end up fighting the other remaining C'tan because he dislikes them. The fact that the Deceiver is taking steps to delay or prevent the Dragon's awakening strongly indicates that the Deceiver at least thinks its a strong possibility...

I wasn't saying that the Deceiver was acting out of a desire to protect humanity.

tech adept
20-04-2008, 12:59
about this life essance thing, I always thought that they were absorbing peoples minds along with any energy they could find in their body e.g. chemical (which would explain the wasting away effect) and they do this to stop their unstable minds from turning back to the once simple energy being type.

Reasons for thing this:
1) the C'tan have all the energy they could want in stars but they rarely use it and usually before they go into battle (e.g. all you can eat)
2) need to go into statis when there are not enough concious beings implying that what they gain from the draining doesn't last that long
3) a C'tan delibrately alters the victims mind to have certain traits (to match their mind?) if they just wanted to torture them why not just inflict pain or have them comit unspeakable acts
4) when the outsider feasted other C'tan their conciousness remained part of it showing that the minds are absorbed in the feeding process

Sceleris82
20-04-2008, 16:32
Well hmm you actully got a point there, also the Nightbringers worshippers went mad due to his Apperance, which indicates that the C'tan does have a significant influence and interrest in the mind. Also it was the Nightbringer who made mortals fear death.

elusiveintrovert
20-04-2008, 18:10
about this life essance thing, I always thought that they were absorbing peoples minds along with any energy they could find in their body e.g. chemical (which would explain the wasting away effect) and they do this to stop their unstable minds from turning back to the once simple energy being type.

Reasons for thing this:
1) the C'tan have all the energy they could want in stars but they rarely use it and usually before they go into battle (e.g. all you can eat)
2) need to go into statis when there are not enough concious beings implying that what they gain from the draining doesn't last that long
3) a C'tan delibrately alters the victims mind to have certain traits (to match their mind?) if they just wanted to torture them why not just inflict pain or have them comit unspeakable acts
4) when the outsider feasted other C'tan their conciousness remained part of it showing that the minds are absorbed in the feeding process

The C'tan feed off of electromagnetic energies, according to the Necron codex.

To 3, The C'tan commit these acts on their human prey because such emotions cause different chemical reactions which apparently to the C'tan have different "flavors." So each C'tan is essentially making their favorite food.

To 4, each of the four remainig C'tan ate others of their kind, with the Nightbringer having eaten the most. The entire C'tan eating C'tan started with the Deciever telling the Nightbringer that their kind was the greatest of feasts. After that the C'tan just started eating each other. As to the Outsider, I don't think he went insane just from eating other C'tan, as even the Deciever consumed a few, I think it had more to do with the Eldar's Laughing god screwing with his head than with eating the other C'tan.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-04-2008, 18:28
Wasn't the Outsider the... even more insane one? I mean, they're all, to our standards, pretty wack, but the Outsider has about two deuces to all their decks by all accounts.

DapperAnarchist
20-04-2008, 21:41
Yeah, the Outsider seems to experience the C'Tan version of a mix of paranoid delusional schizophrenia and a bad case of "you are what you eat" syndrome....

elusiveintrovert
20-04-2008, 22:24
Wasn't the Outsider the... even more insane one? I mean, they're all, to our standards, pretty wack, but the Outsider has about two deuces to all their decks by all accounts.

Oops, my bad. Thats what you get from sleep deprivation, I'll edit that.

yeldarb
21-04-2008, 04:06
technically, the imperium is a very cruel race.; im sure the necrons look at the imperium as evil. it is a bias thing?

elusiveintrovert
21-04-2008, 05:31
technically, the imperium is a very cruel race.; im sure the necrons look at the imperium as evil. it is a bias thing?

The necrons don't see the imperium as much of anything. The C'tan however probably liken the imperium to a free range cattle pen.

Logarithm Udgaur
21-04-2008, 09:51
Simple answer, they are not. They simply want themselves at the top of whatever galactic food chain exists, just like everyone else.
Edit: Why does no one hear the cries of the carrots?

Sceleris82
21-04-2008, 10:48
Because a carrot aint a Sentient being ? With your logic Cow's are evil to !

Being "evil" means you do somthing that aint required. Forexample you have to eat to live, so we eat a cow. Now thats not evil.
But if we torture the cow and then eat it, one is evil since the torture part is not neccesry at all, you just do it for the hell of it.

Johnator
21-04-2008, 12:59
Interesting points but yeah the Outsider is crazy!

Grey Seer Skretch
21-04-2008, 13:04
Its the same reason the evil monkey in family guy is evil, thats why...

elusiveintrovert
21-04-2008, 17:53
Because a carrot aint a Sentient being ? With your logic Cow's are evil to !

Being "evil" means you do somthing that aint required. Forexample you have to eat to live, so we eat a cow. Now thats not evil.
But if we torture the cow and then eat it, one is evil since the torture part is not neccesry at all, you just do it for the hell of it.

You know it isn't actually necessary to eat meat right? And I would argue that Viel and the process of making certainly isn't required either. So by your logic nearly all humans are evil because they eat meat when it isn't required, and those who eat viel and caviar are the most depraved and evil of all.

There's alot more to what constitutes good/evil than what may or may not be deemed neccesary. Not trying to pick on you Sceleris, but from your post it reads as if you think that the C'tan aren't "evil" for killing and feeding on countless sentient beings, but because they are uneccessarily mean about it.

It seems pointless (to me anyway) to apply any form of human morality to a group of beings that has supposedly been around since the dawn of creation. I can't even begin to imagine how such an alien psyche would work and I think trying to humanize the C'tan really just cheapens the idea of ancient beings who are fuelled by inhuman thoughts, drives, and emotions.