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Akuma
20-04-2008, 23:15
Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour
Sword of Fate
Shield of the Gorgon
Van Horstman's Speculum
War Altar

Battle Wizard
Rod of Power

Battle Wizard
Dispel Scroll ; Dispel Scroll

10 Handgunners
Marksman (Hochland Long Rifle)

10 Handgunners
Marksman (Hochland Long Rifle)

20 Flagellant Warbands

5 Knightly Orders
5 Knightly Orders

Great Cannon
Great Cannon
Great Cannon

5 Pistoliers
Musician; Outrider (Repeater Pistol)

Helblaster Volley Gun
Steam Tank

Casting Pool: 4
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 76
Total Army Cost: 2000

Ok

Movement - there wont be much of it ... althought i have 2 knight units and one pistolier one just to provide my enemy with distraction and to get extra turn of shooting ...

Magic - I'm going for defense here - 2 scrolls + rod of power that means 8 diss dice a turn or 9 if I'm feeling lucky - I'll take light or fire and try to cast fireballs with both mages on 2 dices if enemy isnt magic oriented ...

Shooting - This is the emphasis here - 3 fully flegged cannons and 4 on the steam tank ... 20 handguns with 2 hochlands for targeting enemy mages and crew of his warmachines 5 pistoliers offering mobile firepower support where needed

CC - And I'm quite special here too - I have a character that can , and almost always will win any chalange aginst enemy "bad ass" - he will be most often hitting on +3 enemy will have only one attack back and I'll wound on 2+ dealing d3 W with no AS - isnt this great - hell yeah - on top of it i have 3 Unbrakable units in total - each can deal with its own kind of threat ...

I Must say that this is probably THE best empire roster for 2K ever created ... ( in terms of sheer power ) it can deal with just about anything and even terrain positioning isnt a problem ( like for those 40 + handgunner forces ) - Yeah this bragging was only here to get you to anwser :p now tell me how could i make it better ( I was thinking of dropping 3 flags and hochlands and adding another 10 hendgunners - is it worth it ? are hochlands that bad ? )

Akuma
21-04-2008, 20:47
Rate me plees

Uriain
21-04-2008, 22:17
Honestly, If I were to play you, as soon as I saw you put down the cheese wagon, I would start packing up my stuff. Cause I would know that the rest of your list would be like this.

Then, the next time I came in I would look to play you, and take 13PD 4 Bolt Thrower all archer list with 4 charriots and wait for you to come to me. Cause I will win the shooting game.

Gun lines are lame. I dont care if people disagree with me. Its a weak excuse for a list, one only taken so you can win. If you want to take the cheese wagon, get rid of the Van Horstman's Speculum and make a list that is serious about throwing down in combat (IE 2 units of flagg's) a wizard and a big **** off unit of spear or swordsmen with the Gryphon banner) Drop the Stank, a cannon I would keep at least 2 units of hand gunners to protect some war machines, and get some great swords. Then you will have a list that would be fun to play against.

Other then that. Have fun playing against the Thorek Avil list and Teclis Spell Death lists

scarletsquig
21-04-2008, 22:20
That army isn't very cheesy at all compared to some of the monstrosities that the empire army book can produce.

You need to specialise more.

If you want anti-magic, bring 1 wizard, not 2.. 2 is just wasting power dice.

Stanks are useless unless you bring 2 of them.

Hochlands are ineffective unless you're taking loads of them.

The army is too balanced to be WAACy, you need to specialise.

nyahuma
22-04-2008, 02:17
Funny, its tooo cheesy. No, its not cheesy enough, whatever. The whole cheesy argument is pointless - its either legal or it isn't, play or don't.

It is a good, solid list, certainly not unbeatable, but very strong. I play a WE army with no ranked units so the cannons wouldn't scare me too much and I take 40 archers so I'll go toe to toe with the shooting. I actually would have fun going up against it, it would be a challenge.

Akuma
22-04-2008, 08:11
Honestly, If I were to play you, as soon as I saw you put down the cheese wagon, I would start packing up my stuff. Cause I would know that the rest of your list would be like this.

If you did it on tournament - and this army is for tournaments only I wouldnt mind :)


Then, the next time I came in I would look to play you, and take 13PD 4 Bolt Thrower all archer list with 4 charriots and wait for you to come to me. Cause I will win the shooting game.

The problem is that Cannons can take bolththrowers in just one shoot bolts need at least 2 to make anything happen :) - I have 4 cannons this means if i start i can easly strip you of 2 bolts or 2 chariots 13 PD ? Funny with rod of power I will have 10 DD and remember i have 2 DS also + hochland to take care of your mages that need to have los to my regs so i will have los to them


Gun lines are lame. I dont care if people disagree with me. Its a weak excuse for a list, one only taken so you can win.

What can i say - I play in a very competative enviroment - If i play with my friends i Usualy field spearmans and evan a mortar instead of cannon - but as I said before :) this list is for tournaments only


Other then that. Have fun playing against the Thorek Avil list and Teclis Spell Death lists

Well this is what I love my country for - we have regulations on Special Characters - non of them on official tourneys - Dwarf gunline without Torek eaaassyyyy , HE magic swamp without teclis - eaassyyyy


If you want anti-magic, bring 1 wizard, not 2.. 2 is just wasting power dice.

I dont know about you knowledge of empire army book ... the second wizard can give my up to 4 DD in a turn ... nothing to sneez at if you ask me


Stanks are useless unless you bring 2 of them.

And why is that ? Are cannons inefective if i dont bring 4 of them ? The hellblaster is here instead of steam because he can easly deal with enemy missile troops - i just need it to place it right turn it and i can shoot them in first turn without moving - great for dwarwen gunlines - apart from that its also very good aginst cc armys that want to get to me - like KoBK


Hochlands are ineffective unless you're taking loads of them.


On the conterary 2 is a perfect number - hochlands are only here for psychological effect - there are some players whoe fear them that much that thay will concentrate on killing my handgunners rather then more valuable stuff just because there is slight possibility that I can take down theyr rbt or 2lvl mage in one turn


The army is too balanced to be WAACy, you need to specialise.

Here where I play the best armys are those builed around certain spheare but not totaly one dimensional - I have some kind of response for everything in the game - from gunlines ( lods of cannonballs to take care of his warmachines ) , Magic ( 10 DD and 2 scrolls + nice portion of the army is ITP ) , Fast CC handguns and unbrakable CC regs to Movement oriented ones - 3 units of distractors and redirectors - sure i could just take 50 hendgunners but then i would depend hevly on the terrain - i could take 4 cannons but then i would have no distraction whatsoever etc.


I play a WE army with no ranked units so the cannons wouldn't scare me too much and I take 40 archers so I'll go toe to toe with the shooting. I actually would have fun going up against it, it would be a challenge.

I agree - WE are tought game - but i can easly shut down treesinging and thous aim for threeman - stank can deal with arrows better then good so can waraltar so on and so on - I say it would be very fun and chalanging game for me too ( must convince my friend to givie it a go before a tournament this friday )

James_Rayner
22-04-2008, 09:05
Honestly, If I were to play you, as soon as I saw you put down the cheese wagon, I would start packing up my stuff. Cause I would know that the rest of your list would be like this.

Then, the next time I came in I would look to play you, and take 13PD 4 Bolt Thrower all archer list with 4 charriots and wait for you to come to me. Cause I will win the shooting game.

Gun lines are lame. I dont care if people disagree with me. Its a weak excuse for a list, one only taken so you can win. If you want to take the cheese wagon, get rid of the Van Horstman's Speculum and make a list that is serious about throwing down in combat (IE 2 units of flagg's) a wizard and a big **** off unit of spear or swordsmen with the Gryphon banner) Drop the Stank, a cannon I would keep at least 2 units of hand gunners to protect some war machines, and get some great swords. Then you will have a list that would be fun to play against.

Other then that. Have fun playing against the Thorek Avil list and Teclis Spell Death lists


Honestly, where do you get off coming into a thread clearly listed as WAAC and moan about the fact it's "too cheesy". Akuma put that up to ensure people like you wouldn't bother looking as he wanted to avoid the whining.

TBH put up or shut up. This is for a tourney, you dont have to attend but for those of us that are going to attend, i'd like to have a look at the competition.

Just for kicks and to provoke yet more whining from yourself, heres my list.

Lords

Slann
4th Gen
Plaque Of Protection
Plaque Of Tepok
Diadem Of Power
Battle Standard Bearer


Heroes

Skink priest
Mark Of The Old Ones
Cube Of Darkness


Skink priest
Mark Of Tepok
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll


Skink Chief
Scout
Mark Of Tepok
Staff Of The Lost Sun
Dragonfly Of Quicksilver


Core

10x Skinks w/ Short Bows
10x Skinks w/ Short Bows
10x Skinks w/ Short Bows
10x Scouting Skinks w/ Blowpipes
10x Scouting Skinks w/ Blowpipes


Special

4x Terradons


3x Kroxigor
3x Kroxigor


Rare

2x Salamanders
2x Salamanders

Have a good day XD

StormCrow
22-04-2008, 09:29
I've got to agree with others here, as far as cheesy empire lists go this isn't really up there. If anything I'd say there isn't enough in your list to intimidate opponents. As an orc player i think i could give an army like this a walloping using my stock standard list (maybe add a savage orc warboss with runefang to take out that nasty tank :p).

I mean what do you have here that can take down blocks of tough infantry. I think Dwarfs would also give you a whole lot of trouble seeing as they do everything the empire does but better

blurred
22-04-2008, 09:47
I agree with what others have said: it's not cheesy at all.

Two hochlands are not going to get you anywhere. Sure if your opponents fear them to no end they can be useful, but otherwise they'll probably just miss the whole game or deal a maximum of one wound.

The arch lector is a nasty piece of work, but I'd ditch the sword of fate. You'll only be able to use it against one model and you have to tell what that model is before the game. Sword of power would be a lot more useful.

Otherwise it looks quite good. If your opponent brings a lot of shooty troops you will be in trouble.

Sarael
22-04-2008, 09:51
This is actually semi-balanced. Only Walter and one Stank? I'd fight you, and Walter would never face anything stronger than a ghoul/ghast, while I ran roughshod over the rest of your army (at least, that's what I'd INTEND to do). Not terribly impressed.

W0lf
22-04-2008, 10:19
Thats not WAAC.

go read scarletsquigs post he said most of what i want to say.

Milney
22-04-2008, 12:43
I Must say that this is probably THE best empire roster for 2K ever created

Hardly. As others have said it's not specialised enough to be a real WAAC army.

Something along the lines of the traditional:

Lord:

Arch Lector; War Alter of Sigmar, Heavy Armour, Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, Van Horstmann's Speculum.

Heroes:

Captain; Full Plate, Battle Standard Bearer, Imperial Banner.

Battle Wizard; Rod of Power.

Battle Wizard; Staff of Sorcery.

Core:

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

Special:

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Rare:

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Still 56pts to stick somewhere.

That's the cookie cutter build though. If you really wanted to WAACs whilst shunning the traditional mix of units why not something like the following?

Lord:

Arch Lector; War Alter of Sigmar, Heavy Armour, Sword of Power, Shield of the Gorgon, Van Horstmann's Speculum.

Heroes:

Captain; Full Plate, Battle Standard Bearer, Imperial Banner.

Battle Wizard; Rod of Power.

Battle Wizard; Staff of Sorcery.

[Characters left largely the same - however the Scroll Caddy exchanges his library for the Staff of Sorcery. If you're going to stack ~9 dispel dice then you may aswell screw the scrolls for a +1 to each dispel attempt. It's cheaper too...]

Core:

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

10 Archers; Huntsmen

[Crossbowmen instead of Handgunners for the additional 6" range - a common tactic to avoid gunlines is to sit out of range and either pick them apart or avoid the firepower. The Huntsmen also provide a little movement, allowing what is a static list to contest the enemies half (denying them some free VPs) and march blocking to give your line some extra rounds of shooting]

Special:

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Mortar

Mortar

[Cannons are great and all, but against skirmishing lists such as WE or BoC they are extremely limited. Mortars (whilst being cheaper) also offer some nice damage against skirmishers and large swarm units]

Rare:

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

[No WAAC Empire list hits the table without a pair of these - anything else clearly isn't WAAC]

Totting that up it comes to...

1914pts

So you're free to dump 86pts somewhere else. Another Crossbow unit perhaps...

scarletsquig
22-04-2008, 13:27
I dont know about you knowledge of empire army book ... the second wizard can give my up to 4 DD in a turn ... nothing to sneez at if you ask me
I own the empire book and have played empire for 7 years.

If you want anti-magic, you will be using the rod of power to convert 3 power dice into dispel dice each turn.

The extra wizard is left with 2 power dice of his own, which is not going to result in anything being cast.

Effectively, with the second wizard, you are paying 65 points for a single dispel dice, which isn't an efficient use of points.


And why is that ? Are cannons inefective if i dont bring 4 of them ?
I didn't mention cannons, taking 3 of those is fine, as long as you have a good gameplan for the 4th special choice.

Steam tanks are best in pairs because the average opponent can usually manage to deal with one of them. The average opponent has serious trouble killing 2 of them. With 10 wounds, it's also really hard to get victory points for them, so they are useful for points denial tactics.


On the conterary 2 is a perfect number - hochlands are only here for psychological effect - there are some players whoe fear them that much that thay will concentrate on killing my handgunners rather then more valuable stuff just because there is slight possibility that I can take down theyr rbt or 2lvl mage in one turn

Psychological effect doesn't cut it in a tourney. People are aware that 2 will have very little chance of taking out one of their level 2 wizards. (around 1 in 6 every turn).

The last winner of the UK GT brought an empire army with 9 hochland long rifles (5 hangunner units, 4 outrider units). Now that was a brutal list, capable of killing the enemy general on turn 1, every game, along with making a severe mess of the rest of it.


Your list is a good start, it just needs a focus that will really make your opponent scared. Good luck with the tourney. :D

Sterling
22-04-2008, 14:10
Excuse my ignorance, but I play Ogres and I face empire fairly regular... I don't do very well, but it's usually fun because the guy playing empire only brings the serious hurt when we are going to a tourney, and even then, he's a nce guy who is fun to pay.

anyway, my question is why you have 2 hochland's for character sniping and 3 (4) cannons also capable of character sniping? wouldn't you want one way to snipe characters... cannons... and one way to better deal with incoming hordes... repeater handgun or crossbows, maybe?

as an Ogre, I may just be more afraid of cannons and not afraid of hochlands because all my models have so many wounds.

edit; by the way... I would play against this list, happily, and probably have a good time hanging out with my friends and joking around, calling the guy playing the list a cheese-monger, possibly throwing in an old horror flick with bad special effects, and my oponent would probably have fun also... playing cannon-ball-catch (or possibly dodge(cannon)ball) with my poor ogres.

the point is that if you can't have fun unless you are winning, perhaps the person bringing the chedder list isn't the one who has problems with being too competitive.

On the other hand, on the rare occasion when everything falls your way and the cannons all misfire and the hochlands all miss and you kill a stank on the charge because your tyrant hit 4 times and rolled 11 wounds... It's all worth it.

Lord Hurin
22-04-2008, 14:49
I know this is to win at all costs at a tourney, but I'm just gonna throw this out there anyway.

If there's no fun involved (and I certainly wouldn't have fun being on either side of the table with this army) then why play at all?

Akuma
22-04-2008, 16:16
If there's no fun involved (and I certainly wouldn't have fun being on either side of the table with this army) then why play at all?

Ever played a guy that brings his tournament roster to a friendly game just to "try it up" - of course he doesnt give a damn to tell you about it before ... That reason mostly -

As for other comments - I'm happy because i heard a lot of interesting things to deliberate about ...


anyway, my question is why you have 2 hochland's for character sniping and 3 (4) cannons also capable of character sniping? wouldn't you want one way to snipe characters... cannons... and one way to better deal with incoming hordes... repeater handgun or crossbows, maybe?

Acctualy no - lets focus on T3 character with 2 wounds ... Hochlands hit on 5+ and wound on 3+ ... so you basicly need 3 hits to be certain that opponent character bites the dust - you will have 2 hits per 6 shoots so with just two hochlands the effect is clearly psychological - BUT i've used it before and very often it realy works - of course for the large part becasue I've been extreamly lucky with it before and menaged to kill oponent mages in 1 turn ...


If you want anti-magic, you will be using the rod of power to convert 3 power dice into dispel dice each turn.

The extra wizard is left with 2 power dice of his own, which is not going to result in anything being cast.

Effectively, with the second wizard, you are paying 65 points for a single dispel dice, which isn't an efficient use of points.

Wrong - I'm paying 65 points + 50 to take 2 DISPELL SCROLLS - If you ever attended any tournament you know that there is always one or two spells that you just HAVE to stop or the game will swing his way - with the reacent shift in magic ( making it more and more powerfull ) not bringing at least 2 DD is kind of stupid ignorance i thik

I'll think about the steam tank - maybe your right but the problem is that this is far more costly then hellblaster ... and hellblaster can cut throught enemy units like knife throught butter ...


The last winner of the UK GT brought an empire army with 9 hochland long rifles (5 hangunner units, 4 outrider units). Now that was a brutal list, capable of killing the enemy general on turn 1, every game, along with making a severe mess of the rest of it.

This is VERY interesting - I just love the hochland fluff and have my army thamed around it would you care to post this UK winners list even out of memory ? If it won UK GT it must have been strong and to tell the trouth 9 long rifle approach is totaly new concept to me - i would be much obliged if you could elaborate on this tactic ( what core and rare and hero set up has he used etc )


This is actually semi-balanced. Only Walter and one Stank? I'd fight you, and Walter would never face anything stronger than a ghoul/ghast, while I ran roughshod over the rest of your army (at least, that's what I'd INTEND to do). Not terribly impressed.

Yeah you INTEND to avoid 16" movments with new VC ? how my I ask ? How would you deal with stank ? so on and so on ... palyed new VC multiple times - yet never lost ( althought i lost quite a number of times to the old list by the same player - very good friend and player always in top 3 in my country )

@ Milney Totaly agree - your list are much much better in terms of shooting effiecency but what will you do if enemy gets to you ? the problem is that you dont have fast movemnt to block march moves or intercept with sacrifical units - this lists have 2 turns of shooting AT most - I like them a lot and definitly give them a go - but on the crossbowmen bit i beg to differ - If someone can stay out of 24" range this means his either WE or wants to magic me to death - and i can always put my line foward with 8" movment if i see this kind of ploy by the enemy - remember that cannons dont have reange limits ( well on standard table i mean ) so i will always be able to snipe his expensive stuff ...


Thats not WAAC.

go read scarletsquigs post he said most of what i want to say.

Greatest input in a discussion I've seen so far :D


The arch lector is a nasty piece of work, but I'd ditch the sword of fate. You'll only be able to use it against one model and you have to tell what that model is before the game. Sword of power would be a lot more useful.

About the sword - I face a lot of dragon mounted opponents ( DE , Chaos and so on ) I choose dragon as a target and create 16" killzone - if he flys into it i go after him with the Walter and if he doesnt i kill him with cannons ) Sword of power seems quite lame in comeration ...


As an orc player i think i could give an army like this a walloping using my stock standard list

Then dear sir - plase provide me with a link to your standard list and then we can think about it , or you just dont post your lists here at all and only comment lists of others - and thats perfectly fine by me :)

As for blocks of thought infantry - "every one is even in the face of a cannon" if you have 3 you can mow down about 8 models a turn from any unit forcing panic checks - hellblaster can do that to - walter can hold any unit with any kind of hero at least for 2 turns ( 1 turn he chalenges hero , the other the champion ) flaggalants can hold anything for 2 turns at least - stank even longer - knights form mobile hammer that hits the flank of such tought unit removing ranks and giving me extra +1 CR ...As you see dwarfs and orcs are not exactly things i fear about most ( that would be woodies ) - I also want to stress that we dont use special characters here so no teclis lists of death or torek gunlines and so on :) )

Lucky24/7
22-04-2008, 16:44
Well the U.k GT winners list was a high elf so sdfu ......

But the Heat's winners were all Empire dule stank lists ....

My heats winner was Karl Fraz atop a dragon (tho you do have the sword of fate for this guy :D)

then knights, 2-3 cannons and a token unit of hand gunners I think :S

Not 100% sure tho

Other variants are basically the same with 2 stanks and Pope mobile with 2 wizards with the exact same set up seen in ur list exect the mace was in there on the pope is popular

attach 2-3 cannons and then a unit of outriders + missile troops of prefrence and a couple token units of knights and there you go the same army as every one else ....

You be creative you know ?

how about .....

A knight list with 30 knights in units of 5
2 cannons
Ludwig
Pope mobile If you Feel that way inclined
2 wizards same set up as above
then 2 stanks

always fun :D

imagin a knight errant spam list with stanks and ludwigs static combat res

Cannons for anything un friendly :D

Akuma
22-04-2008, 16:45
Sorry for double post but i have idea out of your comments and have to post it in diffrent post not to get it mixed with my former replys

Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour
Van Horstman's Speculum
Shield of the Gorgon
Sword of Fate
War Altar

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Rod of Power

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
Warhorse

10 Handgunners
Marksman ( Hochland Long Rifle )

10 Handgunners
Marksman ( Hochland Long Rifle )

11 Handgunners
Marksman ( Hochland Long Rifle )

Great Cannon
Great Cannon
Great Cannon


10 Outriders
Musician; Outrider Champion ( Hochland Long Rifle )

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Casting Pool: 4
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 58
Total Army Cost: 2000

The Large outrider reg and extra handgunners give me a place to put my hochlands ... NOW for the statistics

3 hochland shooting 2 turns hitting on 5+ mean 2 hits + one hochland shooting 2 turns hitting on 4+ means one hit - this gives me nice beafy 3 hits in 2 turns - meaning that i will most certainly be able to put T3 mages to sleep ... and with a little luck even 4T vamp caster ( 50% chance on it )
2 Stanks and Walter give me 3 unb units and i will get about 55 shots with handgunners and outriders ... + 5 cannon shots in the initial 2 turn time if enemy whants to get to me ... this is lightly diffrent set up then the standard list but i think i'll give it a go ... the only think i miss is another slot to divide outriders into 5 and take yeat another hochland ( that would give me ability to kill enemy mages in one turn )

Lucky24/7
22-04-2008, 16:49
Split the hocland unit down a mean it will be hard to manover the unit to let rip with all 10 tho when you do that sounds like fun :D

Akuma
22-04-2008, 17:00
You be creative you know ?

how about .....

A knight list with 30 knights in units of 5
2 cannons
Ludwig
Pope mobile If you Feel that way inclined
2 wizards same set up as above
then 2 stanks

always fun

imagin a knight errant spam list with stanks and ludwigs static combat res

Cannons for anything un friendly

Nice pice of advice :) thank you but the problem is that we dont use special chars ( And looking at the emperial ones I'm quite happy about it ;) )

About the list Ive came up with the fallowing modification

Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour
Van Horstman's Speculum
Shield of the Gorgon
Sword of Fate
War Altar

stays the same

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
Warhorse

warhorse for when he uses the 2 diss scroll i can propel him in enemy to buy some time or ridirect charges OR deny him points for him

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Rod of Power

3x 11 Handgunners
Marksman ( Hochland Long Rifle )

Great Cannon
Great Cannon

6 Outriders
Outrider Champion ( Hochland Long Rifle )

7 Outriders
Outrider Champion ( Hochland Long Rifle )

Steam Tank
Steam Tank

Casting Pool: 4
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 60
Total Army Cost: 2000

Whould that be better then previous one ?

Akuma
22-04-2008, 21:24
Ok so another question - If i got to bump my roster up to 2250 pts would adding contingent of 25 flaggelants would be a bed idea ? I mean it would give me 4 unbrakable unit ... or 2 very small knights unit would be better ? ( for distraciotn and whatnot ?

Milney
22-04-2008, 21:35
Edit: Nvm, I was being noobish xD

Walls
22-04-2008, 23:00
If I may interject.

There are 8 steam tanks in the entirety of the empire. For them to allow 2 in one battle is almost preposterous. You'd think using them is only in the most dire of circumstances. Let alone 2? It must be end of the world.

I think Steam Tanks should only be allowed to a certain limit, say 1 per 2000pts or 2500pts or even more. They are practically a character into themselves.