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Feefait
21-04-2008, 13:25
This was originally going ot be a battle report, and maybe I will still write it up. But it got so out of hand and demoralizing so quickly I got lost and stopped chronicling. SO now I'm just going to slightly rant. Sorry, went 6 pages and couldn't find the other VC rant and too lazy to keep looking.

So in a nut shell VC vs. WE I got smoked. granted, my second game with WE and my opponents second game with new rules VC. I had a combat heavy, forest spirit army thinking to be immune to the fear, have magical attacks for ethereal and lots of attacks.

I had no lords, and my opponents force was centered aorund a strong hero/lord contingent. His Vampire lord was maybe 10 pts less then all my heroes combined. Not that I;m complaing, he had a great list. At 2000 pts I could have gone with lords and sniper or what not but wanted to try something different. Unfortunately the power of the VC means you can't try new things and be competitive. My 2 level 1 scroll caddies were about out of scrolls and unable to control the magic phase, or at least slow it down after turn 1.

Here are my issues:

Corpse Cart. Great idea but the ASF is stupid. There is no reason for that to be in an Undead army. HE I can kind iof see. But not undead.
Varghulf. Charged turn 2 with 2 treekin and a treekin elder. 10 attacks. Didn't kill it. Next trun bring in a treeman, thinking wipe it out and that's it. nope. regen 2 of the 5 wounds then 2 of the three crumble wounds. Still alive. For 175 points it's one of the best units in the game. AND it's a vampire. My current most hated unit/model in the game.
Crumble/Regen Along with the thought of the Varghulf, no way you should be able to regen crumble wounds. It's like a double ward save on wounds you've taken.
Vampire powers/magivc items. Some of the powers are sick. And so are the weapons and amror. A nice combo is okay, but to have the ability to max both? Yes, I know you need to protect the lord mroe then probbaly ony other army, but there should be a limit. 2x the amount of items as any other character can make them nigh unstoppable.

I'm not one ot cry the sky is falling after a bad loss. it happens. Things don't always work out. I understand, bt the fact is unless something really, really goes bad for the VC with rolls or whatever, or you are tooled to kill one lord then you will most likely lose. You can't play around and try different things. SOme say they have no shooting and that's a weakness... not really when they're melee and magic are so overwhelming. Not only can they heal potentially any shooting casualties but they can create screens wherever they want.

Are they unstoppable? no, but damn, they have some stupid ridiculous things. coughvarghulfcough

:) Sorry this went so long. Thanks guys and gals.

Tiamat
21-04-2008, 13:32
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137024

I started the above thread specifically to help despondent individuals such as yourself. Assembled with input from anybody on Warseer willing to contribute, it should help you out.

Whether you accept the advise or not, best of luck for the future.

Milney
21-04-2008, 13:44
You admit to:

1) Not taking a Lord

2) Just taking 2 Level 1 scroll caddies

and you are surprised that his characters were dominant over yours.

'kay...

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 14:06
Take two treemen.

Your core smokes his and is only 4 points more.

Vargulf holding up against all that was luck more than anything.

You are wood elves. Everything you care about should be in trees after the first turn out of sight. If the vargulf is charging you, you made a mistake.

fubukii
21-04-2008, 14:08
how a treeman and 2 treekin didnt kill a toughness 5 4 wound model is beyond me even with a 4+ regen its only str 5 so isnt great at killing you either :/

i dont see why the vargulf is so good its 175 pts, for 5 str 5 attacks 4 wounds toughness 5, sure it has regen but u can get 3 treekin for almost the same cost get 9 wounds, a 4+ save 5+ward 9 attacks at str 5? Idk maybe im just in denial?

Braad
21-04-2008, 14:12
So, this was your first game WE against VC? Maybe you were just unlucky.

Shamfrit
21-04-2008, 14:16
Wardancers can kill the Varghulf, trap it with an Eagle, Flank Charge, woot! Dead.

Feefait
21-04-2008, 14:18
OKay I did expect his lords to be dominate. I didn't expect the varghulf and knights to be so dominant. Yeah, maybe it was luck with the Varghulf, but for what it can do that's a heck of a bargain.

My army was centered around getting in combat fast, with my characters having killing blow to take out the lords. 2 of his were mounted, which I didn't expect. My oponent had a great army and played a great game. I just felt like there was nothing I could do. Just couldn't do enough wounds fast enough to compensate for the magic and the damage. They can just do so much. He went first and and when his magic came round and he set down his 5 power dice for his lord alone I knew I was screwed and that if I hadn't geared up for it I was dead. I hate having to do that. I mean not taking an all round balanced force but playing more 1 dimensional. I think VC can make you play more defensively then i am used to. With Skaven and Lizards, and even WE so far I try to play aggresive. You HAVE to play to stop magic and characters.

And I did get the charge on the Varghulf, just couldn't take it down. It was a lucky charge admittedly. i destroyed a unit of summoned zombies and over ran into the Varghulf with a roll of 12. MAde it by like an inch.

Wardancers on VArghulf are a good diea. They were geared ot take down his casters though. Unfortunately he misdireced and blocked them just enough that I couldn't get them where they needed to be. Too much time wading through zombies let his command unit solo out my other units.

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 14:24
Honestly vampires have very little options to fight against treemen. With toughness 6, 6 wounds, a 3+ armor save 5+ ward, ItP and stubborn you can really just slam that guy into his hammer unit and keep it there the rest of the game. Then just choose the rest of your battle appropriately. If you have two then he's just screwed unless he gets lucky and the treeman fails his break test. A treeman has a pretty decent chance of beating a vampire lord on his own unless the vampire has the balefire spike and gets the charge off.

Also take a bunch of dispel scrolls. Use your dice for the invocations you think you can stop (like if he rolls a 4) and save the scrolls for when he tries to Dance into combat. If you neutralize his magic phase he's going to be hurting. This is a recomendation for every army fighting the new Vampire Counts.

theunwantedbeing
21-04-2008, 14:28
If a vargulf refuses to fail it's regen saves, you arent going to kill it.
Plain and simple.
A character with rageths wildfire blades is the only thing you have to negate his regen for wood elves.

Your best bet is to shoot the thing a LOT with glade guard.
It has to get into short range to charge you.
(short range is 15", its charge is 16"...you can move 5" without a penalty to hit)
St4 shots are only wounding it on a 5+ but the sheer volume of shots should be able to kill the thing.

Treekin arent really a good idea.
4's to hit, 4's to wound and it gets a 4+ save...thats 8 attacks per wound caused.
You want your treekin ploughing through his units really...not fighting something that has the potential to kill 1 of them each turn.

You just shoot it.
Dont try fighting it, just shoot it....use your own fighting troops to hack apart his units.

Emeraldw
21-04-2008, 14:35
My quick suggestions
Lord caster with Wand of the Elm Wych
Branchwraith caster with Cluster of Radiants
Spellsinger lvl 2
-Anymore and your cutting into your troops, I usually put my lord on an Eagle.

For lore, use Beasts. The beast Cowers, Bears anger and Oxen stands will all be useful, Hunters Spear for knights, even wild hunt can throw them when they don't think you can charge during the magic phase.

That was bad luck with the Varghulf. Use the treeman to hold up his skeletons and main core so you can get a flank charge to really kill him. I also recommend some Glade Riders for rear/flank charges.

explorator
21-04-2008, 14:39
This was originally going ot be a battle report, and maybe I will still write it up. But it got so out of hand and demoralizing so quickly I got lost and stopped chronicling. SO now I'm just going to slightly rant. Sorry, went 6 pages and couldn't din the other VC rant and too lazy to keep looking.

So in a nut shell VC vs. WE I got smoked. grated, my second game with WE and my opponents second game with new rules VC. I had a combat heavy, forest spirit army thinking to be immune to the fear, have magical attacks for ethereal and lots of attacks.

This was your second game with Woodies? You might just need to practice and get more experience with the army.


I had no lords, and my opponents force was centered aorund a strong hero/lord contingent. His Vampire lord was maybe 10 pts less then all my heroes combined. Not that I;m complaing, he had a great list. At 2000 pts I could have gone with lords and sniper or what not but wanted to try something different. Unfortunately the power of the VC means you can't try new things and be competitive. My 2 level 1 scroll caddies were about out of scrolls and unable to control the magic phase, or at least slow it down after turn 1.

4 scrolls is a decent defense against many VC armies. WE have an item called Wand of Wych Elm that would really, really help your anti-magic. Character selection is very important. In 2000 points you should be taking a lord.


Corpse Cart. Great idea but the ASF is stupid. There is no reason for that to be in an Undead army. HE I can kind iof see. But not undead.

Vampire Counts had a version of ASF in 6th ed (before High Elves ), it is not new or unusual.


Varghulf. Charged turn 2 with 2 treekin and a treekin elder. 10 attacks. Didn't kill it. Next trun bring in a treeman, thinking wipe it out and that's it. nope. regen 2 of the 5 wounds then 2 of the three crumble wounds. Still alive. For 175 points it's one of the best units in the game. AND it's a vampire. My current most hated unit/model in the game.

You had the Vargulf tied up in a combat it would never win with the three treekin. It was a tactical error on your part to charge the treeman in.


Crumble/Regen Along with the thought of the Varghulf, no way you should be able to regen crumble wounds. It's like a double ward save on wounds you've taken.

It is nice, I admit.:)


Vampire powers/magivc items. Some of the powers are sick. And so are the weapons and amror. A nice combo is okay, but to have the ability to max both? Yes, I know you need to protect the lord mroe then probbaly ony other army, but there should be a limit. 2x the amount of items as any other character can make them nigh unstoppable.

Wand of Wych Elm? An Annoyance of Netlings? Check the WE book, there are some great items there. WE also have access to kindred and spites. Combo-up!


I'm not one ot cry the sky is falling after a bad loss. it happens. Things don't always work out. I understand, bt the fact is unless something really, really goes bad for the VC with rolls or whatever, or you are tooled to kill one lord then you will most likely lose. You can't play around and try different things. SOme say they have no shooting and that's a weakness... not really when they're melee and magic are so overwhelming. Not only can they heal potentially any shooting casualties but they can create screens wherever they want.

Are they unstoppable? no, but damn, they have some stupid ridiculous things. coughvarghulfcough

:) Sorry this went so long. Thanks guys and gals.

Play more games before your next rant.;) Two games with an army is not enough experience to make sweeping judgements.

M.R.B.
21-04-2008, 14:49
The only game I've seen between new VC and WE the VC player didn't stand much of a chance as his units were too slow to catch anything and the WE units just too powerful in combat when they got to choose the time and place.
That battle might have gone better for VC if he had taken knights instead of Grave Guard with regen banner, but the Varghulf was easily dispatched by a unit of Wild Riders. Regen is only a 4+ after all.

svien
21-04-2008, 14:51
Wardancers can kill the Varghulf, trap it with an Eagle, Flank Charge, woot! Dead.


sorry but Varg has no flanks or rear.

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 14:54
The only game I've seen between new VC and WE the VC player didn't stand much of a chance as his units were too slow to catch anything and the WE units just too powerful in combat when they got to choose the time and place.
That battle might have gone better for VC if he had taken knights instead of Grave Guard with regen banner, but the Varghulf was easily dispatched by a unit of Wild Riders. Regen is only a 4+ after all.

This is pretty much my experience as well. Wood Elves can pick their fights so the Vampire lord can generally be avoided while the other stuff is picked off. Regular vampires aren't that scary especially with characters with killing blow running out of the trees or monsters they can't hurt.


sorry but Varg has no flanks or rear.

That's only 1 less CR so he's still going to be taking it pretty hard.

Varath- Lord Impaler
21-04-2008, 15:12
This thread and all the others prove what i have been saying.

Vampires arent difficult to beat if you tool your army up to beat them.

Even then its freaking difficult.

But balanced army vs Vampire army?

the Magic is too overwhelming.

Only Invocation should be allowed to be recast.

EDIT:

Oh and by the way, if you hate Regen now, wait until he does what ive seen once.

5 blood Knights with the banner of defence, thats a 4+ ward against shooting.
With a White Lord Battle Standard bearer with the Drakenhof Banner.

So now this unit has T4 a 2+ armour save a 4+ ward against shooting and a 4+ regen against any attack.

yeah...sucks huh. I wish my dwarfs could do that.

Emeraldw
21-04-2008, 15:18
This thread and all the others prove what i have been saying.
Vampires arent difficult to beat if you tool your army up to beat them.
Even then its freaking difficult.
But balanced army vs Vampire army?
the Magic is too overwhelming.
Only Invocation should be allowed to be recast.

EDIT:

Oh and by the way, if you hate Regen now, wait until he does what ive seen once.

5 blood Knights with the banner of defence, thats a 4+ ward against shooting.
With a White Lord Battle Standard bearer with the Drakenhof Banner.

So now this unit has T4 a 2+ armour save a 4+ ward against shooting and a 4+ regen against any attack.

yeah...sucks huh. I wish my dwarfs could do that.

Van Hels is nice and makes the army really get around their slow speed and toughness, but I will admit, stopping 3 of those with only 7 dispel dice is beyond a pain in the ass. 4 dispel scrolls can only go so far as well.

My only solution to those blood knights thus far is "The beast Cowers" and baiting using some fast cav. Basically, don't fight them is your best option.

Milney
21-04-2008, 15:24
This thread and all the others prove what i have been saying.

Vampires arent difficult to beat if you tool your army up to beat them.

Even then its freaking difficult.



"Vampires arent difficult to beat..."

"Even then its freaking difficult"

Contradict yourself much?

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 15:33
This thread and all the others prove what i have been saying.

Vampires arent difficult to beat if you tool your army up to beat them.

Even then its freaking difficult.

But balanced army vs Vampire army?

the Magic is too overwhelming.

Only Invocation should be allowed to be recast.

EDIT:

Oh and by the way, if you hate Regen now, wait until he does what ive seen once.

5 blood Knights with the banner of defence, thats a 4+ ward against shooting.
With a White Lord Battle Standard bearer with the Drakenhof Banner.

So now this unit has T4 a 2+ armour save a 4+ ward against shooting and a 4+ regen against any attack.

yeah...sucks huh. I wish my dwarfs could do that.

Yeah that blood knight unit is only 600+ points for 6 models and can be led around by the nose because a unit of fast cav is within 14" and the units screening it are shot up.

The only spells that can be recast are Invocation, Vans Dance and Raise Dead. Vans Dance is too expensive to cast more than a few times every magic phase, the range has been reduced and the only way to be sure to get it is with a Necro who can't cast it more than once without help from powerstones.

I will agree that a "balanced" army has a hard time against the new Vampire Counts. However I totally disagree that they are difficult if you tailor your list to beat them. With a preponderance of dispel scrolls and dice, you can slow down their raising and most armies have stuff that's either ItP or can take a banner or magic item to give it to themselves.

Your dwarves can take runes which outright destroy spells. If you use spam those it's only a matter of time until one works on Invocation with the guy who has the raising bonuses and then they are screwed. I know you have bad luck with the anvil, but I had a unit of Grave Guard that were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ roll 5 ones and totally wiff so it's not like that bad luck is indicative of how effective something is.

Druchii Love
21-04-2008, 15:35
Wood Elves versus Vampires is just a bad match up to start. While I've been parading around the town crying that Vampire Counts are the new Brettonians (Vamp-tonians?), woodies just don't have the right mix to deal with the undead. Kind of makes me wonder why Vlad Von Carstein didn't just go make a super army by wiping out the wood elves and THEN go chase down the Empire...

Emeraldw
21-04-2008, 15:35
I will agree that a "balanced" army has a hard time against the new Vampire Counts. However I totally disagree that they are difficult if you tailor your list to beat them. With a preponderance of dispel scrolls and dice, you can slow down their raising and most armies have stuff that's either ItP or can take a banner or magic item to give it to themselves.
.

I think you confirmed his point, an army shouldn't require tailoring just for it. Balanced armies should be the idea.

Feefait
21-04-2008, 15:45
The issue I have is this. If you are trying to play a well balanced army. Right now VC are, as far as I've seen in the 1 I've played and 2 I've seen the best army out there. They are just that powerful. Yes, they can be beat if you gear up to beat them. But you can use any list to stop any one specific army, in my opinion. In just a take all comers list the VC will be much more balanced and care a lot less about who they may or may not face.
Yes, spites and items will help. But when they are getting magic items AND powers and I have to split my points between the two, how can I make a character to go toe to toe? VC just have so many options, and so many tough options.
I willa dmit I made a mistake with my magic. I didn't realize I could take anything other then the WE lore. Really, really bad on my part. Would it have made a differnce? Nope. I mean I was dispelling the corpse cart with one caster, which left 2 dice for the other. And his level 3 lord was +1 to cast and dispel, and mine was -1 due to the damn cart. I'm sorry i'll take that cart over a screaming bell say for skaven any day.

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 15:55
I think you confirmed his point, an army shouldn't require tailoring just for it. Balanced armies should be the idea.

No he's saying they are always powerful, just less so when you have a tailored army.

What I'm saying is that they are hard for balanced stuff, but quite easy to beat if you know you will be fighting them or play certain stuff that is just inherantly good against them (like Wood Elves and new Demons).

If you want to have one standard list for all games, you might struggle but most people I know change their list around depending on who they are fighting.

Tiamat
21-04-2008, 16:06
One tactic I've had Wood Elves use against me is that amulet that lets you strike first, even against other strike first models. Give that to a lord, give him a great weapon (so he can hurt the Vampire easier) and a ward save (for protection against high strength attacks), then get him into combat with a vampire, not necessarily the Lord, and instead of a challenge, just direct your attacks against him.

There's also that handy item that turns the elf into a kind of werewolf thing. Gives him high strength and extra attacks.

I've had loads of Saurus Characters torn to pieces by those things, and if it can kill Scar Vets and even an Old Blood in one move, then I reckon a hero level Vampire is very possible, and as we all agree, killing them really hurts a Vampire Count army.

As an aside, I've always believed that tweeking or outright changing an army list to better fit the situation is par for the course in Warhammer. To each their own, but I'm a firm believer in taking the right tools for the right job. I wouldn't take my Skryre Weapon Teams against strong shooting armies, no magic against Dwarves, and against horde armies, other Skaven and Goblins, Plague Monks are a must, but I'd leave my Jezzails and Poison Wind behind, saving them and the weapon teams for the like of Bretonnians and Chaos Armies.

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 16:14
One tactic I've had Wood Elves use against me is that amulet that lets you strike first, even against other strike first models. Give that to a lord, give him a great weapon (so he can hurt the Vampire easier) and a ward save (for protection against high strength attacks), then get him into combat with a vampire, not necessarily the Lord, and instead of a challenge, just direct your attacks against him.

There's also that handy item that turns the elf into a kind of werewolf thing. Gives him high strength and extra attacks.

I've had loads of Saurus Characters torn to pieces by those things, and if it can kill Scar Vets and even an Old Blood in one move, then I reckon a hero level Vampire is very possible, and as we all agree, killing them really hurts a Vampire Count army.

As an aside, I've always believed that tweeking or outright changing an army list to better fit the situation is par for the course in Warhammer. To each their own, but I'm a firm believer in taking the right tools for the right job. I wouldn't take my Skryre Weapon Teams against strong shooting armies, no magic against Dwarves, and against horde armies, other Skaven and Goblins, Plague Monks are a must, but I'd leave my Jezzails and Poison Wind behind, saving them and the weapon teams for the like of Bretonnians and Chaos Armies.

Yeah most people I play against generally have about a 75% base army and then tailor the last bit. I mean if you are going up against Empire, why would High Elves bother with the standard of ItP or the item that gives magical attacks to the unit?

Feefait
21-04-2008, 18:13
I agree there should be some tailoring. I am really just learning the list and wnated to see how different things would perform. my last game was with a cc character and a snipey character and worked real well vs. ogres. I had to see just how much standard rank and file and a non tooled character could survive against the currently perceived ranking 'power army'.
What i found is an army that is all that has been said and very little in the way of weaknesses. or at leats with some awesome abilties to cover up the weaknesses. I just think that they are part of this boulder rolling down hill and gaining power as each book is released.

Daemons then DE after that will have to be really, really nasty to keep up and to pull in new users. And for those of us with armies that don't see a new book on the horizon with the current power shift we are going to potentially be in trouble. No one can complain about the SOD in an age of VC's.

SuperBeast
21-04-2008, 18:17
Tournament-style lists are all well and good, but if you refuse to tailor a list to beat an opponent, then you can hardly complain if you're beaten.

Yes, there are things that are a waste of time against VC, but there are items you can say similar about for other armies.

Does no one play against Lizards? HE? Tzeentch? TK? Ogres?
There are plenty of armies out there that can be ruinous in the magic phase or universal strengths/neutralisers on psychology grounds.
If you're entering a tournament or designing a 'balanced' list, solid magic defence is part and parcel of that, or should be; along with psychology boosts.

For example, a banner that causes fear; against non-fear causers it's a boost, against undead/ogres or whatever it's a neutralisation tactic.

There are other examples.

Instead of creating characters who are the pinnacle of your army, use characters as buttresses for your army. Use them to fill holes and solve 'what if?' scenarios.

I've often been accused of writing 'beardy' lists, because by reputation I'm a strong opponent. All I do is take the 'Dr. Pepper' approach to list writing; "what's the worst that could happen?"

All my lists and tactics start from a threat-neutralisation perspective, be they tailored or otherwise.
Sometimes, focussing on not being beaten is a better option than focussing on beating your opponent.

xragg
21-04-2008, 19:01
IoN is too cheap, it should be 1 higher in cost in my opinion. Even with a super heavy magic Tzeentch army, I couldnt come anywhere close to stopping any IoN's. I had to reserve my 10 DD for van's, so only the first couple IoN's could be stopped.

It really would be nice if they offered more options to defend against magic then blowing points/hero slots on a scroll caddy that is useless after his two dispel scrolls are gone. Even if they allowed any hero to carry 1 dispel scroll (or maybe an extra DD instead) would help. People would grumble that it would weaken magic based armies, but remember its 25 less points that hero has to spend on other items if he takes a scroll.

soulcrusher
21-04-2008, 19:12
ok ill admit it vc are hard to play against but before i go onto how to defeat them let me say these few words that will strike fear into vampire players ....:evilgrin:

daemons of chaos..... may the 10, be very afraid. each deamon , before upgrades and even special rules has ' deamonic ' this means it has a 5 + ward save and 2 other stats. then there are the units special rules : killing blow will sort out those vargulfs and when you have a 10 strong unit of bloodletters theres no escape. also deamonettes have armour piercing ( not forgetting the fiend ! ) and will out manouver nearly anything . herald of nurgle or epidemius has regeration, poisened attacks and other stuff. then theres icons, banners, magic items and what about tzeetch. horrors and anything ' tzeetchy ' will dominate the magic phase unless the opposing vc army has gone all out on magic. and finnaly there are greater deamons, they will cripple nearly everything your opponent can field and guo has 10 wounds + regeneration!


vampie ( lol not fang and apple pie, sorry my jokes are a bit shoddy...:cries:) counts can be defeated in 3 ways ( i suppose there are more and i bet other players shall tell me in reaction to this.

it is :

1.keep on destroying his spam units, if you have a strong combat army it will not be hard but remember eventually those zombies will weaken you

2. slay the characters, not so easy against vampires but necromancers are no challenge, once weakened thoose spam units will soon disapear

3. pound him in the shooting phase with basically everything you have and take alot of dispel scrolls, magic items, and high elf mages! get +1 to dispell

remember though that a magic strong army will suffer in comabt and vice versa also use your overwhelming shooting ability well and any other strengths

p.s look at the ' hammer and anvil of nurgle ' thread it shows you a great unit that is basically a vargulf but alot lot better

Ixquic
21-04-2008, 19:25
IoN is too cheap, it should be 1 higher in cost in my opinion. Even with a super heavy magic Tzeentch army, I couldnt come anywhere close to stopping any IoN's. I had to reserve my 10 DD for van's, so only the first couple IoN's could be stopped.

It really would be nice if they offered more options to defend against magic then blowing points/hero slots on a scroll caddy that is useless after his two dispel scrolls are gone. Even if they allowed any hero to carry 1 dispel scroll (or maybe an extra DD instead) would help. People would grumble that it would weaken magic based armies, but remember its 25 less points that hero has to spend on other items if he takes a scroll.

Huh???? How is he getting so many dice? With 3 caster heroes and the level 4 lord with the 2 extra powerdice AND the black periapt that's still only 15 power dice. Taking the -2 to cast banner along with 10 dispel dice and a few scrolls should be able to stop him cold for the entire game unless he's constantly getting 5s and 6s on his casting rolls. If you're complaining since he's allowed to get any spells off with an army that requires a magic phase to function, I don't know what to say.

Dispel scrolls already shut down the first two magic phases for most armies (Vampire Counts is generally spared this since they can cast a ton of times on one dice rolls) unless you get real lucky. That's powerful enough.

isidril93
21-04-2008, 19:37
undead will really have to fear daemons

they have betters characters, vampires may be strong but they are not as strong as a greater daemon

the whole fear me tactic goes away. it might go awy for the daemons too but they are at least good fighters

they are stronger, tougher and faster

slaanesh will have so much fun causing all those ld based tests
khorne will have plenty to kill
nurgle will be even more undestructable againgst things like zombies and skellies
tzeentch will have a blast with their bluescribes (for every spell the daemon player gets ones mor PD)

grg3d
21-04-2008, 20:22
Ok my friend plays VC and I play the All powerful Orgers :rolleyes:

I have lost twice to him but its been a close fight I only have 1 butcher, 2 brusers and the tyrant (they all have a magic weapon)

It must be my powerful magic or maybe its my so many useful magic items :rolleyes: like the banner that proctects me from Ice magic...

I still haven't tailored my army to fight VC but if I did... I would take 3 butchers then maybe I would have more than 3 dispel dice (his VC army has 8 to 10 PD)

Note: we don't play in any tournament and have played for years or maybe he just is not trying to grind the Orgers into the ground on the first turn??

Feefait
21-04-2008, 20:33
ONe of the reasons for this thread is actually thinking about ogres. One of our group plays them regularly and they have a tough time competing normally. Against VC I don't see how they could even come close. Tarpit some zombies in front, close enough to stop the bull rush then move up just behind them, or to the side ideally. When the ogres win and over run then flank, side charge them or at leats you've stopped the bull charge. IF the zombies by some miracle hold then you can come in on the side. I can't see the ogres getting enough dispel dice from anywhere to overcome the summons.
My suggestion would be get in as fast as possible, let him summon, and hopefully you get an overrun into his army before he gets more screens up. However this could lead to spliiting your army and battle lines and then he is all over you.

eagletsi1
21-04-2008, 21:25
Dude,

I feel your pain.

The new vampires with a bunker and the regeneration standard and all Skeleton units being allowed to take banners.

I understand what you are talking about. You played a power gamer as have I.

Most people on this an other sites don't do what the person you played do.

They make balanced lists and all comer lists.

Unfortuneatly for me an you our opponent make power gamer lists. So most of the people on this site cannot relate to you pain, but I can.

My too cents.

eagletsi1

xragg
21-04-2008, 21:27
Huh???? How is he getting so many dice? With 3 caster heroes and the level 4 lord with the 2 extra powerdice AND the black periapt that's still only 15 power dice. Taking the -2 to cast banner along with 10 dispel dice and a few scrolls should be able to stop him cold for the entire game unless he's constantly getting 5s and 6s on his casting rolls. If you're complaining since he's allowed to get any spells off with an army that requires a magic phase to function, I don't know what to say.

Dispel scrolls already shut down the first two magic phases for most armies (Vampire Counts is generally spared this since they can cast a ton of times on one dice rolls) unless you get real lucky. That's powerful enough.

I had 10 DD/2 dispel scrolls and he had 17 PD I think. I wasnt complaining that I should have been able to completely stop his magic, I was thinking about other armies and how they have no where near the DD I had. How is a balanced army even to compete with that much magic in a phase. Never risking a miscast and succeeding 66% of your casts on one die is stupid.

javaguru
21-04-2008, 22:05
We've got about a week before all the Daemon rants start coming. It will be the proof of power creep, unfair and completely broken.

doomspittle
21-04-2008, 22:31
The point is if your opponent had played with a balanced list then it would have been a lot closer .simple as.i personally dont like fighting an army that can throw out over 50 missiles a turn, out manovure any army in the game and still compete in the magic phase.personally i enjoy a challenge ,if u want a balanced game ask the guy for a game of chess.

etancross
21-04-2008, 22:43
Just to put in my 2 cents, doesn’t a “Balanced” list really only come down to opinion? What player Y may thinks is a balanced listed might be considered by player X to be cheese, and what player V considers cheese, player X could consider balanced?


So is there ever really a balanced list? I say “NO” there can be no list that a group of people can really agree is balanced because its all smoke, mirrors, and opinion.

Etan Cross

Black-Tooth
21-04-2008, 22:48
I used the new Daemon army book against a Vampire Counts army the other day and pummled them into the ground!

Stop yer wingin'!

Spirit
21-04-2008, 23:40
Wardancers can kill the Varghulf, trap it with an Eagle, Flank Charge, woot! Dead.

A varghulf does not have "flanks" just incase you were adding the +1

javaguru
22-04-2008, 00:44
Just to put in my 2 cents, doesn’t a “Balanced” list really only come down to opinion? What player Y may thinks is a balanced listed might be considered by player X to be cheese, and what player V considers cheese, player X could consider balanced?


So is there ever really a balanced list? I say “NO” there can be no list that a group of people can really agree is balanced because its all smoke, mirrors, and opinion.

Etan Cross

What exactly is a "balanced" list?

is it ;
25% points in Characters 50/50 between magic and fighty
25% in Core
25% in special
25% rare

Then you would have to break those points down to magic,shooting and CC as well as cavalry and infantry. Some armies simply can't do it unless they make widespread use of DoW and then there would be cries of cheese.

EOT
22-04-2008, 12:28
Incidentally, and whilst we're on the subject of VC's. Where does it explicitly say that Regen can be used against wounds caused on the unit by combat res. and also ,by the same token, where does it say explictly that characters can be raised back into the unit they died in?

I hear all this floating around yet myself and my local store manager spent a good 40 minutes or so looking for anything in the book to back these up and came out empty handed.

No point in making a new threead just for these really.

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 12:45
Incidentally, and whilst we're on the subject of VC's. Where does it explicitly say that Regen can be used against wounds caused on the unit by combat res. and also ,by the same token, where does it say explictly that characters can be raised back into the unit they died in?

I hear all this floating around yet myself and my local store manager spent a good 40 minutes or so looking for anything in the book to back these up and came out empty handed.

No point in making a new threead just for these really.

In the rules for combat resolution it says "armor saves may not be taken." Since regen and ward saves are not armor saves they can be used, just like if you get hit with a Runefang for example you still get your ward saves. This is unlike, for instance, the Tzeench miscasting horror rule where is specifically says that "no saves of any kind may be taken."

By characters I'm assuming you mean the command group. In the rules for the Invocation spell it says that the order models are returned are first to the command group and then to the rest of the unit. If you are talking about actual character characters, then no you can't revive them back into the unit they were killed in.

EOT
22-04-2008, 12:48
Thanks. That has cleared some things up.

zvonda
22-04-2008, 12:56
In my opinion the new VC army is simply broken.
I've so far played 5 games against 3 different VC players and got massacred every time, which is score I haven't experienced in my over 10 years of playing WFB.
In these games I used three different armies (Empire, Lizards, Chaos Mortals)and we were playing games various point sizes (1500-2999).
Even my cheesy 2500 pts Chaos army with a Chaos lord on dragon and a Hellcanon was trampled to the ground by the end of turn 5.
In one of the games my opponent succesfully cast Vanhel's four times in one magic phase!
I really don't know how to beat them.

the_raptor
22-04-2008, 13:16
Just to put in my 2 cents, doesn’t a “Balanced” list really only come down to opinion? What player Y may thinks is a balanced listed might be considered by player X to be cheese, and what player V considers cheese, player X could consider balanced?


So is there ever really a balanced list? I say “NO” there can be no list that a group of people can really agree is balanced because its all smoke, mirrors, and opinion.

Etan Cross

A list in which all components contribute about equally. In an ideally balanced list movement, close combat, characters, magic and shooting, would all be important parts of your battle plan. You wouldn't be relying on a small subset of those aspects to win (normally by having so much focus in that area that your opponent cedes control of that phase to you).

Notice I said about equal. There is large shades of grey between "perfectly balanced" and "trying to cheese one aspect". It doesn't mean balanced lists don't exist.

But VC have trouble with this because they don't have real shooting, and rely on magical characters for movement and for making their core competitive. So a balanced VC list is going to inherently have more points in characters then a similar list from other races.

Feefait
22-04-2008, 13:24
For those who were talking about playing an unbalanced VC army, I hope oyu were referring to the guy who was playing against the 17 or whatever PD. My opponent I thought had a very good list. It was balanced as far as VC can be without intentionally leaving an opening. Something I would never expect an opponenet to do, friendly or not. But that's the thing, just a standard, balanced VC list is going to be better then a standard, balanced 6th edition book list. I would like to see the DC of spells go up by 1 for everytime it is cast. And I would like clarification on regenning combat resolution rules. i don't think that should be possible.

EvC
22-04-2008, 13:32
Certainly you can regen combat resolution damage- that's probably why a decent ward save is so hard to come by in the army list now!

Max zero
22-04-2008, 13:37
Would this be a bad place to get advice about how to make my Power VC army even more cheesy? Its only got 45% of its points in heroes!

Seriously though every army gets the 'its freaking overpowered' when they get released. I think VC get more of it because its an unusual army that plays very differently. The ability to summon permanent full units I think needs to be looked at (with the right setup you can summon a 20+ Zombie unit with 2 PD).

I think the real test will be once Daemons are out for a bit will the 'OMG! VC are IMBA!' stop?

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 13:44
For those who were talking about playing an unbalanced VC army, I hope oyu were referring to the guy who was playing against the 17 or whatever PD. My opponent I thought had a very good list. It was balanced as far as VC can be without intentionally leaving an opening. Something I would never expect an opponenet to do, friendly or not. But that's the thing, just a standard, balanced VC list is going to be better then a standard, balanced 6th edition book list. I would like to see the DC of spells go up by 1 for everytime it is cast. And I would like clarification on regenning combat resolution rules. i don't think that should be possible.

If invocation started out at a 3+ I would think that would be a fair off to stop the 15 powerdice armies from spamming an unkillable amount of guys.

People are surprised when I tell them I only have 8 powerdice my first magic phase.

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 13:45
For those who were talking about playing an unbalanced VC army, I hope oyu were referring to the guy who was playing against the 17 or whatever PD. My opponent I thought had a very good list. It was balanced as far as VC can be without intentionally leaving an opening. Something I would never expect an opponenet to do, friendly or not. But that's the thing, just a standard, balanced VC list is going to be better then a standard, balanced 6th edition book list. I would like to see the DC of spells go up by 1 for everytime it is cast. And I would like clarification on regenning combat resolution rules. i don't think that should be possible.

If invocation started out at a 3+ I would think that would be a fair trade off to stop the 15 powerdice armies from spamming an unkillable amount of guys.

People are surprised when I tell them I only have 8 powerdice my first magic phase.



I think the real test will be once Daemons are out for a bit will the 'OMG! VC are IMBA!' stop?

When new demons come out, the complaining about VC is going to seem paltry in comparison.

Varath- Lord Impaler
22-04-2008, 13:55
Van Hels is nice and makes the army really get around their slow speed and toughness, but I will admit, stopping 3 of those with only 7 dispel dice is beyond a pain in the ass. 4 dispel scrolls can only go so far as well.

My Dwarfs can usually stop about 75% of the Vampire magic phase.

but for some reason, the 25% they have left is enough to defeat my army.



My only solution to those blood knights thus far is "The beast Cowers" and baiting using some fast cav. Basically, don't fight them is your best option.

I dont have that as an option in my army, if they wernt Immune to Psychology i would use the Rune of Challenge like i can do with most normal knight units.


"Vampires arent difficult to beat..."

"Even then its freaking difficult"

Contradict yourself much?

Milney, read the sentences. Im saying that you need to tool up to have a chance against Vampires, which defeats the purpose of having a balanced army.



Yeah that blood knight unit is only 600+ points for 6 models and can be led around by the nose because a unit of fast cav is within 14" and the units screening it are shot up.


Too bad i dont have fast cav, ay?

also, who cares about shooting, ive thrown everything i could at that unit and ive never had a vampire Magic phase end with it having less than the original amount.

My Hammerer unit with Dwarf lord is 600+ points and the hammerers are one of my only units which is basically killed every game. Damn, they need Gromril armour.



The only spells that can be recast are Invocation, Vans Dance and Raise Dead. Vans Dance is too expensive to cast more than a few times every magic phase, the range has been reduced and the only way to be sure to get it is with a Necro who can't cast it more than once without help from powerstones.

Hehehe, so why is my opponent taking Necromancers again?

I havnt seen any of them.



I will agree that a "balanced" army has a hard time against the new Vampire Counts. However I totally disagree that they are difficult if you tailor your list to beat them. With a preponderance of dispel scrolls and dice, you can slow down their raising and most armies have stuff that's either ItP or can take a banner or magic item to give it to themselves.


Its difficult if you dont want to buy every combination of units for your army, or if you go for a theme.

I know that a themed army is less powerful than a competative one, but i expect a chance, at least.



Your dwarves can take runes which outright destroy spells. If you use spam those it's only a matter of time until one works on Invocation with the guy who has the raising bonuses and then they are screwed.

Spam a 50 point item that only works on a 4+ and can only be taken on Runesmiths and Runelords?!


I know you have bad luck with the anvil, but I had a unit of Grave Guard that were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ roll 5 ones and totally wiff so it's not like that bad luck is indicative of how effective something is.

HA! Im sorry, but i have limited sympathy for a unit of fear causing, unbreakable, raisable troops who can hit on a 2+, wound on a 2+, striking first with a reroll.

As i usually say when looking at the Vampires abilities.

Man i wish my Dwarfs could do that. By all rights they should.

EvC
22-04-2008, 13:59
Just wondering, have you ever tried fleeing with one of your massive infantry blocks? It might be unthinkable, but position yourself well and that'll leave the Blood Knights wide open and not expecting it. Course if you have tried that, never mind ;)

theunwantedbeing
22-04-2008, 14:08
The invocation really needs to be cast on a 5+.
That'll stop people trying to spam it.
Then there's no point throwing 1 dice at it as you'll only get 1 cast every 3 dice used.
So people wont bother trying to spam it.

Look what happens with drain magic(HE) on them.
Now they need a 7+....vamps tend not to raise much after that spell goes off.

Max zero
22-04-2008, 14:10
About the only thing I have found VC core good for is for being tarpits. Ghouls get picked mainly because they can do some damage too. With the ease of summoning your better of getting min core and using the extra points for either:

a) Heroes, so they can dominate the magic phase, bringing your tarpit units up to size then making the opponents life hell.

b) Hammer units to take advantage of the tarpits. Black Knights, Grave Guard (with GW) and Cairn Wraiths all come to mind.

Why spend a heap on core when I can buy 6 Cairn Wraiths that can do a decent job of being a tarpit while being able to dish out the pain?

I love how people say 'take more core!'. Give me something other then tarpits in core and I will.

EvC
22-04-2008, 14:20
The invocation really needs to be cast on a 5+.
That'll stop people trying to spam it.
Then there's no point throwing 1 dice at it as you'll only get 1 cast every 3 dice used.
So people wont bother trying to spam it.

That wouldn't quite be enough, as the typical casting set-up has Skullstaff and Lord of the Dead for +2 to cast. So it'd still be spammed on a 3+, and more players would take the combo as well, which would not be good. I'd like its casting value to increase by 1 every time it's recast (successful or not), personally.

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 14:28
About the only thing I have found VC core good for is for being tarpits. Ghouls get picked mainly because they can do some damage too. With the ease of summoning your better of getting min core and using the extra points for either:

a) Heroes, so they can dominate the magic phase, bringing your tarpit units up to size then making the opponents life hell.

b) Hammer units to take advantage of the tarpits. Black Knights, Grave Guard (with GW) and Cairn Wraiths all come to mind.

Why spend a heap on core when I can buy 6 Cairn Wraiths that can do a decent job of being a tarpit while being able to dish out the pain?

I love how people say 'take more core!'. Give me something other then tarpits in core and I will.

This is my problem with the new book. Undead core is fairly useless without hero support and you can only have so many heroes to stick in units to help, especially if one is a necro or a caster vampire. In addition they all function more or less the same way with small differences so it's bland.

Emeraldw
22-04-2008, 15:09
This is my problem with the new book. Undead core is fairly useless without hero support and you can only have so many heroes to stick in units to help, especially if one is a necro or a caster vampire. In addition they all function more or less the same way with small differences so it's bland.

Yeah, but who cares about something like zombies? They aren't supposed to win in combat, just hold you. I would say the same about skeletons actually. Put a simple necromancer in each skeleton unit and you can bring back plenty.

However one thing I noticed, is that you really don't know how well your doing against VC's until the very end. Their units aren't worth much and if you kill a couple vampires, you can win a lot of points.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-04-2008, 15:31
Honestly vampires have very little options to fight against treemen.

Blood Knights will totally waste a treeman on the charge, even without a character...

soulcrusher
22-04-2008, 15:35
like i said before lol

vampire strengths :

magic

combat

undead

all of these things can beutifully ( well if you see chaos like that ) counter all theese things . undead has no effect on deamons along with any other phycology.

most if not all characters can use magic, and tzeetch will be a real threat to those necromancers

and CC, bloodknights PAH! a unit of bloodcrushers ( although i will only take one ) will see to that. grave guard will stuggle against deamonettes and plaguebearers. khorne hounds will butcher dire wolves and if your tzeetch units fail to stop spell spamming ( lets face it , you cant stop all those spells ) then your bloodletters will come in handy to get rid of all those spam units

however many of you arnt daemon players so here are a few tips with high elves and ogres

ogres : will butcher those spam units with bulls and swamp with knoblars , however might struggle against gg ( with killing blow ) and bloodknights ,so batter them with lead belchers, scrap launchers and use your more special units on them.necromancers and characters can be sorted out using gorgers , however against lords and vampires equiped for combat you will need something backing your spawned ogres up.

for high elves go heavy on magic and shooting ( archers , bolt throwers, shadow warriors, tiranoc chariots, nobles ) and have an archmage on a dragon or prince on one. phoenix guard / white lions pretty much useless , however swordmasters will defenetly serve as your pest control. and dragon princes backed by magic items along with a mounted noble, along with a few single bolt shots will be handy against blood knights

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 15:55
That's a silly statement. Most armies have core ranked infantry units that can't fight worth a crap on their own. Empire Swords men? Meh. Skaven? Most average unit you will find. DE Warriors? bleh. Gnoblars? Guh. Goblins? Hah. Men at arms? Weak.

Infantry blocks aren't known for their prowess in combat. They're known for having a +5 static combat resolution. That gives them the advantage against harder hitting but less numerous troops who have to work for that victory. Strong ranked core infantry units are the exception. Strong combat troops are almost always special.

Why would you expect VC to be any different?

...

Empire doesn't HAVE to take ranked infantry as its core and neither do Dark Elves or Skaven. I understand how infantry works. However VC has to have three blocks on the table before they can start taking their better ranked units.

Max zero
22-04-2008, 16:00
That's a silly statement. Most armies have core ranked infantry units that can't fight worth a crap on their own. Empire Swords men? Meh. Skaven? Most average unit you will find. DE Warriors? bleh. Gnoblars? Guh. Goblins? Hah. Men at arms? Weak.

Infantry blocks aren't known for their prowess in combat. They're known for having a +5 static combat resolution. That gives them the advantage against harder hitting but less numerous troops who have to work for that victory. Strong ranked core infantry units are the exception. Strong combat troops are almost always special.

Why would you expect VC to be any different?

The difference is that static +res blocks is all VC get. Clanrats can take weapon teams, Empire can take knights (incl Inner Circle) plus a Warrior Priest gives them a 0-1 Core option of Flagellants, DE with Repeaters, Goblins.... Fanatics? Not to mention the tonnes of other core options O&G get.

I understand what VC core is and does (and it does it well) but thats all we get in core. You only need so many static +res infantry blocks. Especially when you can summon more at will. It cheapens them even more.

xragg
22-04-2008, 17:01
...

Empire doesn't HAVE to take ranked infantry as its core and neither do Dark Elves or Skaven. I understand how infantry works. However VC has to have three blocks on the table before they can start taking their better ranked units.

Skaven is the prime army forced to take ranked infantry. They can take no other unit until they take a mainstay, 20 strong, clanrat unit. They cant have more of a unit then they have mainstay clanrats, which basically means every skaven army will have at least 2 units of clanrats. While VC is forced to take core units intended to operate as r-n-f, the operate very well if not as tarpits, not to mention be bolstered in size once the game starts.

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 19:00
Skaven is the prime army forced to take ranked infantry. They can take no other unit until they take a mainstay, 20 strong, clanrat unit. They cant have more of a unit then they have mainstay clanrats, which basically means every skaven army will have at least 2 units of clanrats. While VC is forced to take core units intended to operate as r-n-f, the operate very well if not as tarpits, not to mention be bolstered in size once the game starts.

Ok so they have to take one rank and file. That still leaves them several choices that can be used otherwise. They don't have to take two unless they specifically want more of those special units so the choice is left up to them.

I don't need three tarpits so I don't like being forced to take them.

soulcrusher
22-04-2008, 19:07
true but what about the new daemons? bloodletter , deamonettes , plaguebearers and horrors all count as cores or basic infantry and they are not that useless, all though daemons will be a pretty unique army :D:evilgrin:

Emeraldw
22-04-2008, 19:13
true but what about the new daemons? bloodletter , deamonettes , plaguebearers and horrors all count as cores or basic infantry and they are not that useless, all though daemons will be a pretty unique army :D:evilgrin:

Thats because all those daemons cost a huge amount. 12 a model to be precise and also you can't have enormous number of them due to the intense cost of heroes. Also they have very clear weaknesses, such as low T or lower Mv. But even they won't be beating Swordmasters any time soon.

soulcrusher
22-04-2008, 19:19
:Dreally? i wouldn`t put bloodletters or plaguebearers out of the question just yet. killing blow would tear apart those swordmasters and ok they might have ASF but with a couple of defensive items + other crap bloodletter would be alot harder to destroy

also plaguebearers ( u should see mine they rock, although i cant get them on hear lol ! ) they have soom good defensive stuff and i heard somewhere that they had a banner / icon to stop ASF

btw please correct me if im wrong:D about the new DoC i have only read what other ppl have put on hear and i had a quick look in the new book a week ago :angel:

Ixquic
22-04-2008, 19:22
You didn't say that. You said core infantry blocks are fairly useless without heroes or back up. That's pretty true of all core infantry blocks.

So you can't take an all cav army, that puts you in the same league as a lot of other armies. Even considering the points on core, VC don't actually HAVE to spend a large amount of points on blocks of those boring core infantry - they can take three minimum units of core infantry for what, 240 points? That's a pittance out of a standard 2,250 army - and they can be raised up to larger unit size. An Empire player that wanted his three core at the cheapest cost would pay 150, and have troops a heck of a lot worse. You're also discounting the other core units - wolves and bats. Moreover, VC also have cavalry choices at Special and rare (and tough cavalry to boot), so it's not like they can't make a highly maneuverable army if they want to.

When did I say I wanted an all cav army? I don't want to take three tarpit units since I have no need for that. Ghouls MAY be able to do something, but without a real command group their use as a ranked unit is lessed and that's points I could be spending on other core that is much more useful. I understand that they can be cheap, but it's still a unit I'd rather not take instead of say, skirmishers that could function outside of the Vampire's 12" bubble. Other armies can take their rank and file, stick in a character, then spend other slots for units with different uses. Having three core, all with the same job is overkill.

Malorian
22-04-2008, 21:43
They don't all have to have the same job.

You could simply take a unit of 10 to hold your table quarter as you march up.

Or if you aren't magic heavy, use the cheap units to redirect chargers.

Emeraldw
22-04-2008, 22:14
:Dreally? i wouldn`t put bloodletters or plaguebearers out of the question just yet. killing blow would tear apart those swordmasters and ok they might have ASF but with a couple of defensive items + other crap bloodletter would be alot harder to destroy

also plaguebearers ( u should see mine they rock, although i cant get them on hear lol ! ) they have soom good defensive stuff and i heard somewhere that they had a banner / icon to stop ASF

btw please correct me if im wrong:D about the new DoC i have only read what other ppl have put on hear and i had a quick look in the new book a week ago :angel:

Bloodletters are WS5, that is nice, Str 5, that is nice too. However they are T3 and have no armor (I would assume they still have their 5+ daemonic ward). Killing blow is nice, but with Str 5, they are already wounding most things pretty easily, the KB just gets around their armor against most things (ala knights), but still it's already -2 to that save. Their good, but not that good.

The thing people were talking about with plaugebearers wasn't them, so much as the Herald of Nurgle. With the Herald in a unit they get Regeneration and a bunch of extra poisoned attacks, as well as an item that lets the enemy strike last, in base contact, with the bearer. So about 2-3 models (depending on the base size). So it can be nice. This all comes from the herald, but other heralds of their god can all do nasty things like giving daemonette's ASF and Bloodletters Hatred.

I absolutely plan to buy the new fantasy book for a multitude of reasons, however I am not certain it will be overpowering. The sheer cost of units and their generally low toughness makes this appear to be a "kill you, before you kill me" type army. Admittedly the rules for combat resolution are nice for them but 2 groups of dryads can still punch a huge hole in them really fast and then they will lose more wounds from the loss in combat. And unlike the undead, they aren't coming back.

Feefait
23-04-2008, 17:49
Sorry, i can't get past the thought that an all demon book is just a gimick. I suppose I need to get out of my old fogey thinking and accept them as a current army, but it seems like another power trip. VC have been established on their own long enough even if this is really there what, second, third book? Back in the days Undead was nasty, but now they are just disgusting.

soulcrusher
23-04-2008, 18:06
true and i suppose what the other dude said was correct , daemons really aren`t that good but they rely on there heralds and elite troops alot kinda like VC except once youve slaughtered a unit of bloodletter they aint coming back, i suppose the daemon thing is sorted.

i also have this to say: every army has at least a few things that can damage VC , or HE or the new deamons, either you havent used them right or not used the right tactics.

when the daemons of chaos come out loads ( i mean by the bucketfulls ) of ppl will be moaning about how they are soo good, however i could beat all but the most experienced daemon player with my high elf force, out of 12 games i have won 10, and in them two one was my first and the second i had really ban luck

Malorian
23-04-2008, 18:12
Deamons = Big elite tough units

Vampire counts = Big tar pits that keep coming back

Nothing wrong with either of them.

Logan Vader
23-04-2008, 18:28
I agree that typical army lists have something to deal with VC. I personally do not think a "balanced" army is one split 25% among all the slots. I feel that an army is balanced when the core troops make the majority of the army.
Never in history has specialized troops outnumbered the main host.

Also, if I knew I was playing a VC player just out for blood, the gloves would come off. I would then field(which I never do) hand gunners and two, count them, two organ guns. I prefer a gentleman's game, not one where someone wants to power game me. :mad:

Malorian
23-04-2008, 18:31
Organ guns? Bah! Rokkit batteries are what will tear a VC army apart.

Logan Vader
23-04-2008, 18:36
Rokkits??! *curses greenskins* I'm talkin about undead smellies, donna make this into my aching urge to split Ork bellies! =P

Malorian
23-04-2008, 18:40
lol, you have no idea how many times I've written truck as trukk... damn ork army...

But you see what I mean. I'd rather use the big blast that will wipe out big units of ghouls or graveguard and the fact that VC armies are usually bunched together helps if it scatters.

soulcrusher
23-04-2008, 19:09
only a unit with the drakenhof ( sorry i cant spell it right ) banner can regenerate

EvC
23-04-2008, 22:37
...and the Varghulf, and Corpse Carts...

Malorian
23-04-2008, 22:54
I was surprised when my corpse carts were taken out by sreaming catapults so easily... damn flaming skulls...

DoktorZinieztro
25-04-2008, 19:08
Yeah that blood knight unit is only 600+ points for 6 models and can be led around by the nose because a unit of fast cav is within 14" and the units screening it are shot up.

Exactly. I bet it was a rather larger game (clocking at 3000 points), for some one to get the blütknacks so pumped up. And even then it's rather expensive and surely the "key to winning it" in your opponet's long and hard-thought "strategy". :eyebrows:

If you can do the trick, you get them out of their ablative cover (the military nomenclature for, well, just about any grouping of expendable gits you have at hand), which in this case is either skellies or zombies.

That could give you the advantage of leading the leeches towards your dwarfiest units and get the galloping mower torn to pieces, while bravely and resolutely accepting you are going to loose a chunk of them bearded machoes.

I'm thinking a Slayer/Ironbreakers combo can certainly do the trick.


The only spells that can be recast are Invocation, Vans Dance and Raise Dead. Vans Dance is too expensive to cast more than a few times every magic phase, the range has been reduced and the only way to be sure to get it is with a Necro who can't cast it more than once without help from powerstones.

Aye, which makes for another risky choice, that will most certainly remain on the back and hope for your cannon-skills to be way off. A tooled-up Engineer could allow for that single, solid shot you need to blast the Necromancer or to shake the Vamp being funny with the strange words and silly hand signals.


I will agree that a "balanced" army has a hard time against the new Vampire Counts. However I totally disagree that they are difficult if you tailor your list to beat them. With a preponderance of dispel scrolls and dice, you can slow down their raising and most armies have stuff that's either ItP or can take a banner or magic item to give it to themselves.

Your dwarves can take runes which outright destroy spells. If you use spam those it's only a matter of time until one works on Invocation with the guy who has the raising bonuses and then they are screwed. I know you have bad luck with the anvil, but I had a unit of Grave Guard that were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ roll 5 ones and totally wiff so it's not like that bad luck is indicative of how effective something is.

Yep, while hoping for "me rolls good, you rolls sux" each and every time in a game against the Vamps is an extremely optimistic stance, you can tool up your dwarfy list to counter a few of the strongest points your toothy opponent is going to be using, so you can suffer the least from his using them... and tailor the rest of fight the best you can, so your units do have a solid chance of weathering out the tide of Darkness.

soulcrusher
25-04-2008, 19:11
true well if corpse carts have regeneration then surely zombie units supported by necromancers should have it too....?

DoktorZinieztro
25-04-2008, 19:37
true well if corpse carts have regeneration then surely zombie units supported by necromancers should have it too....?

Erm... I believe that zombie-regen is called "raise the dead" in common parlance, my friend.

I mean, why settle for regenerated old corpses if you can raise brand new ones?:rolleyes:

soulcrusher
25-04-2008, 19:39
rofl yeh thats a good point actually, i accept my mistake lol

Logan Vader
30-04-2008, 16:24
lol, you have no idea how many times I've written truck as trukk... damn ork army...

But you see what I mean. I'd rather use the big blast that will wipe out big units of ghouls or graveguard and the fact that VC armies are usually bunched together helps if it scatters.

Malorian *tips a sloshing ale your way* That's a good point! I probably will use my runed up grudge thrower my next VC battle!

DrDogmeat
26-06-2008, 18:36
People seem to complain about regen a lot, saying "he regenerated 6 of 8 wounds" for example, but most of that is just plain luck, not rules. I really don't think vc are overpowered. Its either loads of magic (in this case all you need to do is flank the units or kill the vampire lord, make sure you direct your attacks at the vampires when possible), or if its little magic and lots of melee just use a bit of tactics.

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2008, 18:53
Often it can be frustrating to have a vampire fluff his attacks (eventually) only to survive the combat and resutling crumble tests due to having a ward save or regeneration.
Then to have them be given back the few wounds you did cause in their subsequent magic phase.

Generally the problem is that they can be incredibly frustrating to play against when they have a bit of luck on their side.
That and...vampire counts players are almost never punished for rolling high, ever.
No break tests. No leadership tests. No psychology tests.

While you have to take a lot of those tests and are punished for rolling high and can lose a substantial portion of your own army by such rolls.

That's why there are cries of overpowered and cheese at them so much.

wizuriel
26-06-2008, 18:56
how does it make sense you can regen crumble wounds?

DrDogmeat
26-06-2008, 22:31
how does it make sense you can regen crumble wounds?

Well theres not much that has regen, I guess a varghulf has it because he's always going to be on his own and would otherwise die very easily from combat res, he is a powerful vampire physically after all and vampires are known to regenerate in fiction. The drakenhoff banner ends up costing well over 250 points including the costs for a character, the banner is basically magically helping the vampire lord keep control of his army.

Shimmergloom
27-06-2008, 00:01
lol, I think it's hilarious that WE players have the nerve to complain about anyone else's army.

Feefait
27-06-2008, 02:07
Any tooled up list can be complained about. A general WE list has enough weaknesses to not make the strengths overhwelming. The vamp list I fought was not even close to some of those i've seen. It was a very balanced and solid list, utilizing a lot of the different units and abilities. Unfortunately those abilities are all really nasty. Yes, WE can have spites... but not and a full complement of magic items. Not yet anyway. I have no complaints on the WE list. I have no issue with the amry I brought. Yes tactically I made some mistakes and there were some rules I was as yet unclear of for both the amries being played. Now, wiser, it might go different. But I'd have to be really damn lucky and play perfect. he would just have to play "standard".
I base my judgement, flawed as it may be, on my experience with multiple amries, vs. just about every army out there in all the time I have been playing. That is circa 1992. I have only once ever been stomped like this with nothing I could really have done different to change it. That was back in herohammer days, my standard Skaven vs. a khorne army. 2 headed chaos dragon with some hero, khorne lord with helm of many eyes and a bunch of stuff and so on. Guy had about 4 units in I think 3000 points. That was a fluke though. This game was no fluke and was not lost by inexperience. I still see nothing to indicate the book was not written by a person with the intention of making the nastiest army they could, maybe out of marketing, maybe just a fan, but still a design to make a deadly army.

EvC
27-06-2008, 11:57
Often it can be frustrating to have a vampire fluff his attacks (eventually) only to survive the combat and resutling crumble tests due to having a ward save or regeneration.
Then to have them be given back the few wounds you did cause in their subsequent magic phase.

Generally the problem is that they can be incredibly frustrating to play against when they have a bit of luck on their side.
That and...vampire counts players are almost never punished for rolling high, ever.
No break tests. No leadership tests. No psychology tests.

I've failed enough stupidity tests in my time though, and it's unavoidable in order to get that 4+ ward save for crumbling.


While you have to take a lot of those tests and are punished for rolling high and can lose a substantial portion of your own army by such rolls.

That's why there are cries of overpowered and cheese at them so much.

But that happened in 6th edition too. Even worse before the main rules were updated, and a simple flank charge into combat would force your opponent to take two psychology tests which could make it flee. And who are we kidding, everyone laods up their armies with anti-psychology stuff these days...