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View Full Version : Sven Ironhand continuity error?



javgoro
21-04-2008, 22:47
Today, while browsing Lexicanum, I came accross the mention of Sven Ironhand foregoing his oath and taking his Great Company into exile. However, there was one thing that made me think there´s a fluff disconnect. The actual fact of Sven´s exile is the following:

"815.M41 Space Wolves Great Wolf Sven Ironhand revokes his oath and leads his Great Company into exile in the Eastern Fringes."

However, Logan Grimnar has been stated in several places (like the Space Wolf 2nd and 3rd edition codices) to have been the Great Wolf for over 500 years. Since there is only one Great Wolf at any given time, this would mean that in 815.M41, Logan Grimnar was the Great Wolf. Is there an error in Lexicanum´s entry, and it should read "Space Wolves´ Wolf Lord...", instead of Great Wolf? That would make sense, however, I´m not sure where the original mention to Sven Ironhand is located, so I can´t check, and therefore I ask you, members of warseer, to enlighten me and tell me what is the truth in this matter, GW screwup, or a careless member of Lexicanum.

NashTrickster
22-04-2008, 06:52
The source is Codicium Imperialis - Wolves of Fenris (UK WD 246, p85) and it does say "Great Wolf" but that's clearly a mistake on the part of the author. It is quite evident if you read the previous sentence in the paragraph:
All Space Wolves are headstrong and in the past this has even led to a Wolf Lord forswearing his oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and striking out on his own. This last happened in 815.M41, when Great Wolf Sven Ironhand revoked his oath and led his Great Company into exile on the Eastern Fringes. He was declared outlaw by Logan Grimnar, and a new Great Company was raised to replace the one that was lost.The paragraph is about Great Companies (led by Wolf Lords as we all know) leaving the Chapter and Sven Ironhand is given as an example...

Since the only way for this situation to happen is for a Wolf Lord to revoke the oath he swore to the Great Wolf, how could a Great Wolf find himself in this situation? If Sven had been Great Wolf, his word would have been law to the Chapter and all would have followed him... Thus Sven must have been a Wolf Lord, QFD!

malika
22-04-2008, 08:27
So this means that there actually is another "lost" Space Wolves Great Company besides the 13th?

biggreengribbly
22-04-2008, 08:35
No, check the quote, the 13th company is 'lost' the other companies that leave of their own volition are declared 'outlaw', they arer renegades, rather than legitimate Space Wolves who have been swallowed up by the EoT in execution of their orders from the Primarch (thus superceding any orders the current Great Wolf could give them, thus preventing their return and re-integration into the chapter theoretically, untill whatever task they are pursuing in there is complete)

malika
22-04-2008, 08:54
What I mean to say is that there are more "lost/renegade" Space Wolf Great Companies out there. This would mean that there possibly could be thousands of Space Wolves running around there besides the official numbers we've currently got! :eek:

Michael M.
22-04-2008, 09:04
There´re more "lost Companies" Jorun Bearclaw´s GC and two other GC decided not to return to the Fang and stayed in the eastern fringes to hunt down ´nids.

pookie
22-04-2008, 09:31
this could explain the apparent SW'esq CSM in the newest Chaos dex.

javgoro
22-04-2008, 10:14
That would make sense. Thanks a lot!

Michael M.
22-04-2008, 10:27
Since the only way for this situation to happen is for a Wolf Lord to revoke the oath he swore to the Great Wolf, how could a Great Wolf find himself in this situation?
The Wolf Lords never swear an oath to the Great Wolf.They swear always an oath to the Emperor and Leman Russ. So non of the Lost Company Wolf Lords is an oathbreaker or renegade cause they still follow their sworn oath.


No, check the quote, the 13th company is 'lost' the other companies that leave of their own volition are declared 'outlaw', they arer renegades, rather than legitimate Space Wolves who have been swallowed up by the EoT in execution of their orders from the Primarch (thus superceding any orders the current Great Wolf could give them, thus preventing their return and re-integration into the chapter theoretically, untill whatever task they are pursuing in there is complete)
The second thing is that they all wear the Curse of the Wolfen, that means that is would bring them in conflict with the big ][.


What I mean to say is that there are more "lost/renegade" Space Wolf Great Companies out there. This would mean that there possibly could be thousands of Space Wolves running around there besides the official numbers we've currently got! :eek:
Not necessary thousands. Not every Lost Company is that large that they could survive on their own. Some of them got the technology and know how to keep their man power constant by new recruiting and using the geneseed of their fallen brothers, but others could not and will decline.


this could explain the apparent SW'esq CSM in the newest Chaos dex.
No, not really. Like i said before, non of the losts are renegade. They´re still loyal to Russ, the Emperor and the Imperium. So no need to turn toward the dark powers. They can still get support from imperial sources.
Take a look at the 13th Company. They´re hunting the enemy for ten thousand years in their own domain, the EoT, and they are still loyal. The Curse of the Wolfen is not a result of their long stay in the Warp. The members of the 13th Company had worn the Mark of the Wolfen before the HH during the Great Crusade. In fact i think the SW geneseed is much more resistable to chaos then any other geneseed. This new fluff from C:CSM is only the result of some daemon possesed autors.

NashTrickster
22-04-2008, 10:42
The Wolf Lords never swear an oath to the Great Wolf.Sorry, but you're wrong here... Re-read the first sentence of the passage I quoted. The Wolf Lords do swear an oath of fealty to the Great Wolf. Thus, any Wolf Lord who "leaves the chapter" forswears this oath (though it doesn't mean he necessarily forswears his other oaths, to Russ and the Emperor...)

Also any SW swears an oath of fealty to his Wolf Lord when he joins his company (see the epilogue of Wolf's Honour for the most recent example of a reference to those oaths.)

Michael M.
22-04-2008, 10:44
Sorry, but you're wrong here... Re-read the first sentence of the passage I quoted. The Wolf Lords do swear an oath of fealty to the Great Wolf. Thus, any Wolf Lord who "leaves the chapter" forswears this oath (though it doesn't mean he necessarily forswears his other oaths, to Russ and the Emperor...)

Also any SW swears an oath of fealty to his Wolf Lord when he joins his company (see the epilogue of Wolf's Honour for the most recent example of a reference to those oaths.)

No, see german WD 53 (don´t know what issue it was in UK/US), there is an article about the lost companies. It says clearly that they swear an oath to Russ and the Emperor and not to the Great Wolf.

NashTrickster
22-04-2008, 10:47
non of the losts are renegade.Please support that affirmation with a quote...
If you can't support it (i.e. if you can't quote a passage from a canonical source saying something along the lines of "no Wolf Lord ever fell to the Dark Powers") then it means that Skyrar's Dark Wolves can indeed be former Space Wolves who 1)forsworn their oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and 2)went renegade.


No, see german WD 53 (don´t know what issue it was in UK/US), there is an article about the lost companies. It says clearly that they swear an oath to Russ and the Emperor and not to the Great Wolf.Please quote the passage that says this, particularly the part I bolded in the quote above... Or, better still, quote the passage and give us the title of the article and the name of the author, so that we can dig up the original article, in english, and check what it says and if it's not another case of "lost in translation"...

EDIT: BTW, when several sources (in this case the article from WD I quoted above and a few mentions in the SW books from the Black Library) in the original language they were written in say one thing (i.e. that SW swear oaths of fealty to their "superior" --the Great Wolf in the case of Wolf Lords) I don't see how you can support that the contrary is true...:confused:

pookie
22-04-2008, 11:38
[QUOTE=NashTrickster;2545900]Please support that affirmation with a quote...
If you can't support it (i.e. if you can't quote a passage from a canonical source saying something along the lines of "no Wolf Lord ever fell to the Dark Powers") then it means that Skyrar's Dark Wolves can indeed be former Space Wolves who 1)forsworn their oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and 2)went renegade.
[QUOTE]

thats what im thinking,

(not directed at you NashTrickster) SW's have turned renegade ( albeit the only evidance i can give is the few that turned on there brethern on the fist of fenris? ) so its resonable that Skyrar's dark Wolves are the Aformentioned SW Company, just under diffrent leadership.

DapperAnarchist
22-04-2008, 14:48
If there is something saying "No Wolf Lord has ever turned renegade", and we say "well, Skyrars Dark Wolves can't be Space Wolf renegades", that rather assumes that Skyrar was a Wolf Lord, doesn't it? A nice bit of Regicide anyone?

Michael M.
22-04-2008, 21:45
Please support that affirmation with a quote...
If you can't support it (i.e. if you can't quote a passage from a canonical source saying something along the lines of "no Wolf Lord ever fell to the Dark Powers") then it means that Skyrar's Dark Wolves can indeed be former Space Wolves who 1)forsworn their oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and 2)went renegade.

Please quote the passage that says this, particularly the part I bolded in the quote above... Or, better still, quote the passage and give us the title of the article and the name of the author, so that we can dig up the original article, in english, and check what it says and if it's not another case of "lost in translation"...

EDIT: BTW, when several sources (in this case the article from WD I quoted above and a few mentions in the SW books from the Black Library) in the original language they were written in say one thing (i.e. that SW swear oaths of fealty to their "superior" --the Great Wolf in the case of Wolf Lords) I don't see how you can support that the contrary is true...:confused:
It was the WD in May 2000 (must be US WD 243 or somewhere around that), the article was written by Andy Chambers and was called "Lone Wolfs".
Ok, i was a littlebit inaccurate. When i had written my other posts i had only those lost companies with official background in mind. And as far as i know there is no background for Skyrar´s Dark Wolves that says they´re a SW lost company. It could also be that they´re Alpha Legions in disguise. Or World Eaters that had survived the First War of Armageddon and decided that they want to be as hard as the SW. They stopped to worshipping Khorne and starts to worshipping Leman Russ:angel::p. As long as GW don´t give them some kind of background noone will know for sure. But i agree that it could be possible that they´re of SW origin.

@pookie: I think you mean the Wolf of Fenris. It´s true that SW had become renegades in the past. With the exception of the Grey Knights every chapter had lost some SM to Chaos. That´s not new, but i think i would be very unlikyly that a whole Great Company turned to chaos.