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amagi
15-10-2005, 01:02
It's a great army, I think. Superb even. But ok the title was just to get attention...

[EDIT: This is only version 1.0. The army I'll actually be buying is WEAD version 3.1 on page 5 of this thread. :)]

So this is the result of a thorough consideration of points brought up in the Tactica: Asrai thread
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7849
As tactica threads go, that's a pretty good one by the way--I learned some nice things, and I modified the army I'll be collecting. This is the final result.
Any comments or criticisms are welcome.
-----------------------------------
Total points---exactly 2000

187---Spellsinger, Second Level, (GENERAL), mounted on Elven Steed
Dispel Scroll, Calaingor's Stave (can cast Treesinging multiple times, adds 1" to the distance a wood is moved)

158---Noble, Alter Kindred
Hail of Doom Arrow, The Helm of the Hunt (+1Armour Save, on a charge gets +1 WS and +1A)
great weapon, light armour, shield (4+ Armour Save total, option of 3+ in combat with hw/shield)

165---Branchwraith, First Level
Cluster of Radiants (+1 Dispel Dice), Pageant of Shrikes (18" range, S4 shot, hits on a 3+, can target anything, even characters in units)

130---5 Wild Riders

129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician

126---10 Glade Guard, Musician
126---10 Glade Guard, Musician

108---8 Dryads, Branch Nymph

160---4 Warhawk Riders

168---7 Waywatchers

285---Treeman
-----------------------------------

The basic strategy is this: maximize both the shooting and combined charge potential of the army.

With the Wild Rider unit, the Dryads, and the Treeman, I have a few heavy hitting and durable units. The Treeman can serve as an anvil in the center if need be, trapping units so that my many other fast supporting troops can move in as the hammers.

With 4 cavalry units I have a fair amount of rank negating potential, but the important point is that even without rank negating, just about every unit is designed to be able to cause enough damage to potentially break units as long as they work together. Dryads, Glade Riders, Warhawk Riders, and Waywatchers, all are incapable of breaking much of anything on their own, but if any combination of 2 or 3 of them works together, getting +1/+2 for flank/rear charges or even negating ranks, they can be devastating.

Importantly, the Alter Noble serves a key role in being able to position so as to potentially have a wide selection of my units to support and joint charge with. With 5 S6 attacks he is a terrific force multiplier.

And of course he's got the Hail of Doom Arrow. Which brings me to the shooting. 48 shots, the Treeman's root attack, the Branchwraith's sniper shot, and the HoD arrow makes for a formidable shooting phase. The Glade Guard are the biggest threat in this regard, and they also serve as bait in the center of the board while my other units position on the sides.

As for magic, with the Stave and 5 power dice, I can attempt to cast Treesinging 5 times per phase PLUS the Treeman's bound spell. In my experience this is usually more than enough to reliably get off many Treesinging spells in any given game, and with 3 spells I'll have a good range of other options as well. But the Branchwraith's main purpose here is to provide those extra 2 dispel dice, as all of my little units are quite vulnerable to stray fireballs and the like. 5 dispel dice and a dispel scroll are about as decent as it comes without going magic heavy. The Branchwraith has the added attraction of providing respectable combat support as well, acting as another force multiplier.

Another benefit of the army is that every unit in the army besides the Treeman is under 200 pts., and there are no standards. And most things are mobile enough to pick their fights with ease. All units with the option have musicians for flee tactics. Pure points denial.

And don't forget the excellent mage-hunting capabilities. With the S4 sniping Branchwraith, hit-and-run Warhawks, and the superbly mobile Alter, mages have few places to hide.

It's the ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom! WEAD! (get it? weed?......cause they've got plants and such....:eyebrows: :rolleyes: )

What do you think?

EvilIncarnate
15-10-2005, 22:35
IT is very nice army. I like the fact that everything is under two hundred points. Even killing the treeman is not going to win you the game! It is about as many points as a mid-level block troop without the standard.

The army is very quick and will be very hard for a stantard block army to get ahold of it. Hell if if they do they will not get many points from you. I should know I have played against a good number of times.

The Alter Kindred is tough on a charge but he will not survive a long combat against an another character if he doesn't kill him on the turn he charges. He is quick enough to pick who he fights anyways so I wouldn't worry about that.

The only problem may be magic missile spells targeting your small units or characters.


It's the ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom! WEAD! (get it? weed?......cause they've got plants and such.... )


HA HA HA

Wintersdark
15-10-2005, 22:55
Very, very similar to the army I fielded last night :) Worked incredibly well.

People complained that they felt that the Athel Loren lore didn't apply enough pressure to be worth using in leiu of light magic, that's a load of BS. Ask my poor, frusterated Chaos opponent, who was unable to see a single wood elf for all the trees in his face and arrows in his back :) Or the shock at 12 pt each Dryads causing Terror and Regenerating, in addition to their 5+ ward save.


The low cost units also definately works well - You're opponent struggles to pin a single unit down and destroy it... all to gain, what, 120 VP's? He needs to do that three times just to get enough VP's for a minor victory, assuming you get *nothing*. Meanwhile, every unit you take down gets you around 300 vps :)

I wouldn't recommend changing anything, although I'm a big wardancer fan, personally, and would fiddle around a bit to get them in. Not that it would make the army better per sey, I just like them.

It's such a fun army to play :)

Akuma
15-10-2005, 23:23
And i was hoping it acctualy a good army ...

Ok first things first -

this army SUCKS :D

and the reasons are - Magic Defanse - close to 0 ( 5 dice one scroll ) - and each and evry unit in your army except treeman is valnurable to magic - think 10 power dice empire with mages deep in units and screened by skirmishing detachments ( and lods of other armys that can get magic heavy to ) if you could reliably remove mages this would suffice the problem is you cant. Warhawks are very easy to block or shoot down , peagant of shrieks needs lods of time to kill just one mage - for new player it may seem powerfull but just count how many turns you need to kill a single 2W no s model ;)

not enought hitting power - what hitty durable units do you have :/ ??? Treeman , dryads and what ??? oh no ??? thats it ??? man you must know that treeman sucks badly agins both Dwarfs and empire now and who knows what next armis will get - huge point sink and chaos dragon eats him for brekfast. dryads are nice but you have - what ? whole 8 of them ??? great - one 2d6 s4 magical hit spell and their reduced to unit that means nothing ...

and all your other units are week - very valnurable to shooting and cc attacks
on top of that glade riders are good vp denial only if your opponent cant shoot them. What if he can ??? You can say that you will use the terrain :/ - oh plese this is not WH40K with danse terrain and stuff - extra forrest wont help you that much.

I could point out countless flows in this rooster - but what for - you will say that im wrong and still stick to this crappy set up.

so i'll just conclude i would have no fun winning aginst such army because - telling the trouth - it can be fun to play or play aginst but it cartainly isnt tournament winner - no cookie for you this time

Wintersdark
15-10-2005, 23:42
heh you haven't played many games against Wood Elves, have you Akuma?

You sound EXACTLY like.. err, well, everyone I face for the first time with mine.

Wood Elves don't need durable combat units. They don't stay in combat. You win combats, even vs. chosen chaos, with ease.

The only serious danger to the list would be a very magic heavy opponent with a LOT of direct damage spells - which would likely prompt the addition of a second L2 mage with another dispel scroll or two and that problem is completely solved.

Wood Elves are not particularly vulnerable to shooting simply because they can kill almost every shooter on the board on turn two fairly easily.

Treeman is fine vs. Dwarfs and Empire. He can hide in the forest - treesinging to move the forest AND him into position, nice and safe - until cannons are either destroyed or otherwise busy dealing with war machine hunters.

5 dispel dice and a scroll is not an insignificant magic defense either, though a little lighter than I like with wood elves. Not everyone plays hardcore magic armies, you know.

Consider the average table - most gaming clubs and every tournie I've ever been to (GT's and RTT's) have 4 pieces of terrain, basically one per table quarter. Add to that an additional forest where you want, and then the ability to MOVE your terrain around, it's plenty to hide around.

It's a different playing style. But believe me, against a block unit army, it's fantastic.

Further, it's not just Glade Riders that are VP denial - everything else is too. You can kill a unit, but it's not worth much of anything and the army is fine without it.

As to a tournament winner? First place, unlikely, as there will be a couple armies it falters against, but overall it's a solid list and would do well overall if played correctly.

I just snicker because you sound exactly like every player I've faced so far, before I've wiped the floor with them :) Non engagement armies always look weak on paper

amagi
16-10-2005, 00:09
The Alter Kindred is tough on a charge but he will not survive a long combat against an another character if he doesn't kill him on the turn he charges. He is quick enough to pick who he fights anyways so I wouldn't worry about that.He's so fragile, it's true. That's why when I first started playing Wood Elves I was too afraid to take a naked Hero and went with an Alter Lord with Regeneration and a 3+ Ward Save against nonmagical stuff. But the more I think about it the more risky and cost-inefficient that is. The Lord, with all his defenses, will still go down in flames from a single fireball, and almost as easily from various other threats as well. And he has exactly the same WS and attacks as this Hero, since I loaded up on saves and couldn't give him the Helm of the Hunt.
The Hero is fragile but his much lower cost suddenly makes him expendable--he's about the same cost as 6 Glade Riders, and if you think of it in those terms then there's no problem with him being a somewhat sacrificial unit. And since I don't care about crazy ward saves I can take the Hail of Doom Arrow, which means more often than not I'll be doing significantly more damage than my tooled up Lord!


The only problem may be magic missile spells targeting your small units or characters. Therein lies the beauty of the Branchwraith. A lot of (perfectly viable) Wood Elf armies will have just a single Spellsinger in the magic department, which means the absolute best you can do in defense is 3 Dispel Dice and 1 or 2 Scrolls. I went this route at first as well. But all those little units are so vulnerable that I wanted more protection--but I'm sure as hell not about to give up Calaingor's Stave!! and I don't want to buy a second Spellsinger because I don't think that with Wood Elf magic that's a very efficient setup, in most cases anyway. (Either take 1 Spellsinger or go all out magic-heavy with a 4th level and a 2nd, I say.) So with the Branchwraith I get those vital 2 extra dice without having a somewhat wasted character, since the Branchwraith serves a combat role as well. I'm still a bit vulnerable to magic but not horribly so, and you could say the same about a lot of great armies. The sniping item is a nice bonus. Also I just like the theme, as I wanted to include more of a forest creature aspect (especially the Treekin, but they don't fit).

@ Wintersdark, I agree on the magic. I'm a big fan of this lore, and I'd really like to try out some magic heavy armies in the future. But I think I'll have plenty of fun with just my 5 little dice. Arguably, no other army can do so much with so few dice. With the possible exception of Ogres--but then if my units are Wood Elves then I'd take our one move wood spell over that whole lore anyday.
As far as charging, I'd agree that you have to be extremely careful about what you charge, but I wouldn't say I'd want to avoid charging with this army!! It depends a lot on which army I'm facing. The great thing is that while sometimes I can just run circles around block troops, charge from 20 different directions at once and wipe out many-hundred point units--other times the units are too tough or the army's in too defensive a setup, in which case I have the equally-viable option of evasive maneuvers, points denial through hiding :), and shooting from afar with a great shooting phase! I love it.

[EDIT: Ummm, I was skimming your post before I wrote this and I thought you were saying that you don't think this army should charge very often....but you didn't say that now did you??? Nevermind. The above gleeful bragging still stands though. It's true.]

And thanks for the mark of approval.:D

@ Akuma........well, :wtf: is about all I can say. Your criticisms basically apply to the Wood Elf army list in general, not my army. Go play some more Wood Elf games! You might learn a few things... Oh, and maybe read up on a little something I like to call "MSU"...

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 00:22
I think WE mid-magic armies are actually pretty good... I started out magic heavy, and am dipping back into the 2 L2's/L2+Branchwraith area now, and I'm still getting a LOT of spells off vs. mid/low magic armies and maintaining a very effective magic defense. 2 L2's get you 6 power dice, add to that some bound spells, and you get a couple treesingings off every turn. You don't need a lot to completely *screw* a rank and file army with treesinging :)

amagi
16-10-2005, 00:34
Well OK I might have been a bit hasty on that, but I think I still prefer the 2nd Level/Branchwraith to the 2 Spellsingers. I think it's a more general-purpose, efficient setup. The Spellsinger duo will give you better casting and defense but in those occasional (but not that rare) cases where Treesinging can't accomplish much, then you're stuck with just a conventional mid-level magic army. Which is not so great. At probably 350-400 pts. for the pair, I think it's just a bit too much for what you get. At least the Branchwraith can still fight in these cases, and snipe with that Spite. Sure a Spellsinger could take the sniping Spite too, but I usually like my mages on horses (so they can reliably target any wood they want), and you don't want to expose the mage just to get LoS for that little item. The Branchwraith uses the Dryads as cover.
Anyway I'd have to try out the 2 Spellsingers some more to be sure.

amagi
16-10-2005, 03:49
As for magic defense, I'm not overly worried. I've beaten a somewhat magic-heavy High Elf army before with only one Spellsinger--3 Dispel dice and 1 Scroll. But I did take a lot of damage in the process.

Nevertheless, I'm considering the following change as an alternate version of this list:
Exchange the 165 pt Branchwraith for a 175 pt Level 2 Spellsinger on foot, with a Dispel Scroll and Pageant of Shrikes (the sniper Spite). I can easily find the extra 10 pts by juggling around some details.
This gives me one less Dispel Dice but an extra Dispel Scroll, an extra Power Dice, and an extra spell.

I'd appreciate any comments on whether this is worth it.
I don't like parting with the Branchwraith's combat abilities and survivability. But those extra magic bonuses are tempting.
The thing is that if magic was the only thing I was worried about then the extra Spellsinger obviously wins hands down.
But I look at the Branchwraith as getting basically the equivalent of a Noble and a Scroll-less mage.
The Branchwraith's combat abilities may not look terribly ferocious, but she's durable, and 3 S4 attacks can sometimes tip the scales considering that all my combats will need as many attacks as I can get, having no ranks or standards. And her presence in a combat means one more set of dice rolled in a pursuit.

Honestly though, even apart from the Dispel Scroll, I think that one extra Power dice might tip the scales in favour of the Spellsinger. One more chance to cast Treesinging is great.

So OK, I guess I may have been won over to Wintersdark's view on medium magic Wood Elves...all in the space of 2 posts...:D

Still I'd welcome any commentary on this. Anyone think the Branchwraith is worth it?

[EDIT: It's just struck me that an added benefit of the Spellsinger is the ability to use proximity to the Glade Guard as cover--the Branchwraith has a bigger base. The Branchwraith is a bit limited in where to hide, especially if the Dryads get into combat. Ugghh. I'm forced to admit that the Spellsinger army is a more reliable general-purpose army. Still, to me the Branchwraith version is just more....artful. I'd use it if I could know ahead of time that magic was not an issue. But given that this is the army I'll be collecting, I think I'll go with the more take-all-comers list.]

amagi
16-10-2005, 04:06
Incidentally, I think the best way to find those 10 points would be to drop 1 Waywatcher, but add a Champion to the Waywatcher unit, and a Champion to one of the Glade Guard units as well. Still 2000 pts exactly (I'm hung up on that for some reason, especially for the army I'll be collecting....but...um, I don't like this new version, cause....it's not &*!@& symmetrical!!! One Glade Guard unit has a Champion and the other doesn't...can't stand it.)

[EDIT: HA!! Symmetry acheived: Drop the Glade Guard Champion and the Dryad Champion and get a Wild Rider Champion instead. Nice and neat. It's great being obessive compulsive sometimes.]

amagi
16-10-2005, 04:52
So here's the alternate, Spellsinger-instead-of-Branchwraith version.
-----------------------------------
Total points---exactly 2000

187---Spellsinger, Second Level, (GENERAL), mounted on Elven Steed
Dispel Scroll, Calaingor's Stave (can cast Treesinging multiple times, adds 1" to the distance a wood is moved)

158---Noble, Alter Kindred
Hail of Doom Arrow, The Helm of the Hunt (+1Armour Save, on a charge gets +1 WS and +1A)
great weapon, light armour, shield (4+ Armour Save total, option of 3+ in combat with hw/shield)

175---Spellsinger, Second Level
Dispel Scroll, either Lamentation of Despairs (Bound Spell power level 3, One use only, target any model on the board, must pass a Ld test or suffer D3 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed)
or another Dispel Scroll

148---5 Wild Riders, Wild Hunter

129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician

126---10 Glade Guard, Musician
126---10 Glade Guard, Musician

96----8 Dryads

160---4 Warhawk Riders

152---6 Waywatchers, Shadow Sentinel

285---Treeman
-----------------------------------
I gave up the Champion in the Dryad unit, but I think the Wild Riders will benefit more from theirs. The Dryad Champion was really only there on the off chance that if some scary character character charges them, they won't lose as many models because of overkill in a challenge. But that's a minor point, and what decent character would bother with a 96 point unit anyway? Whereas the Wild Riders should be more of a shock troop and can use that extra attack.

Anyway this way I can get one of those great Spellsinger on foot models.

So there you have it: the Ultimate Ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom. :p :p :p :p

Latro
16-10-2005, 07:15
[EDIT: HA!! Symmetry acheived: Drop the Glade Guard Champion and the Dryad Champion and get a Wild Rider Champion instead. Nice and neat. It's great being obessive compulsive sometimes.]

No it's not ...

How am I ever going to get my character set-up right this way? I really want a Treeman Ancient and an Alter Noble, to get some magic I was planning two lvl 2 Spellsingers ... all neat and tidy (feels okay). :)

All this talk however has convinced me that one Spellsinger and one Branchwraith would be better ... but that wouldn't look right and definately feel wrong. Four different characters ... the thought! :eek:

Two Branchwraiths would feel better ... but that means no scrolls and other useful items, and I know that bad. :eyebrows:



oh dear ... how to fix this?

EvilIncarnate
16-10-2005, 08:44
I like the Branchwraith version better because the branchwraith can fight too on top of casting a spell. This gives you another character the enemy has to worry about. This would help you spread out your army a little more by having another character to throw into the fight.

Pageant of Shrikes
I do see a problem with this item. I believe it is line of sight which means that character will have to expose itself to the enemy because it only has a range of 18" and would then be in line of sight of the enemy like an enemy wizard which is bad. This is still pretty close for either the Spellsinger or the branchwraith being 18". The point of this item is to TRY to take out weak characters i.e. wizards or champions but i don't believe the risk is worth it.

I think the better item would be the bound spell one instead because it would not expose the charater directly to the enemy. Plus, it would be another spell that the enemy would have to worry about each turn. Against some armies this spell would really good.

Just my thoughts

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 08:55
I'm a little edgy about pageant on the spellsinger too, because I work really hard to keep them 100% out of LOS no matter what all the time. No fast cav running around and popping her full of holes, etc. Even if you're careful, once you've got LOS out of where you are, something else can get LOS in. Maybe, rather the the shrikes (which are also only 18" remember, so you need to have LOS at closer range.. *shiver*) just take a simple power stone? Or, a heartstone and save 5 points, get a reroll on a one of the dice on a dispel roll. A "just in case" item there, that could turn out to be very, very handy.

The fighting Branchwraith.... It's useful, but I dislike it unless you either have a lot of magic without it, or don't plan on casting anyways. If all you have is a L2 and the Branchwraith, your opponent can neuter your magic defence by killing the branchwraith. Because she's out in the open and in combat, she's vulnerable. Lose her early in the game, and magic will do very, very bad things to you, leaving you with just 3 of 5 dispel dice. Bad situation, there, particularly if you've just one one scroll. If you hide her till the end of the game... then you may as well just have a Spellsinger and make use of the extra spell you get, potential additional cast of treesinging, and dispel scroll.

I love the Branchwraith in a L4/L2/Branchwraith L1 situation, because you can afford to lose it. You get the +2 dispel dice, and a hitty character too, AND another source to cast treesinging from - without risking your magic phase significantly. Lose her, you lose 1 of 9 power dice instead of 1 of 5.

Oh, and don't forget, a steed mounted spellsinger can hide around the Glade Riders and Wild Riders too! With the 18" moves, this means you can arrange protection for a steed mounted 'singer whereever she needs to be.

amagi
16-10-2005, 16:42
Oh, I sort of forgot that I was taking the Pageant mainly because I was a bit weak on the magic defense side. So I could snipe at mages and charge them with the Alter, etc. (or snipe at the Champion of the unit the mage is in, so the Alter can target the mage when he charges). I didn't really reexamine that when I switched them.
With the Dispel Scroll maybe it's not so necessary, but I still kind of like the idea. The Spellsinger has the 2 Glade Guard units and the Dryads, and possibly the Waywatchers (if she moves up with Dryads then switches, etc.), to hide next to, and she can join the Glade Guard units if necessary in some situations (and she can occasionally use proximity to the cavalry units too can't she? With 4 of them it's not that rare that she'll be near one. Of course, shoot down one rider and then...)

All that being said, I was just recently arguing elsewhere that mage hunting is not all it's cracked up to be. It's not nearly the reliable anti-magic strategy some people claim, especially since it would take about 3 turns for this little plan to work, best case scenario. But even disregarding its "magic defense" role, it's still a nice way to score some victory points and harass characters near the end. If I you can get 4 or so shots in a game with the Pageant then you've got a somewhat fair chance of killing something. Whether that's worth exposing the mage a bit.... probably not.

So.......I thought about it and I'm not gonna put the new mage on a Steed. Can't find the points and most of the time it'll be the other one casting (Treesinging) anyway. Sure, on foot there's a danger of her getting cornered or isolated somehow, and she can no longer instantly teleport to where her spells will have the most effect, but then it also means that she can go places the Steed-mounted mage can't, using the GG, Dryads, or WW as cover, and she can join the GG or WW if needed (if, say, an enemy mage has a non-LoS damage spell).
So it's just a question of exchanging that item for another 25 pt one. (Not gonna go with the Heartstone). Which leaves my army intact--no more changes in model numbers/types I mean.
As for which item, none of them really jump out as spectacular, but now that I'm slightly more magic-heavy, I think I'll go with Wintersdark's crazy theory on the Lamentation of Despairs. :) Sure it won't do anything sometimes, but it's a nice little trick and it very well might eat up a Dispel Scroll fairly often. And how much fun would it be if it kills the General!!
I'll just edit that into the above Ultimate version of my Ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom...........now stop making me change stuff.

amagi
16-10-2005, 16:57
Latro, I feel your pain.
But even if you went with the 2 Branchwraiths, wouldn't it be weird that you had just one Elf Noble with a bunch of tree creatures........what's he doing there??
One Branchwraith and one Spellsinger means now you have 2 tree creature characters and 2 elves, look at it that way......though it is slightly jumbled with all the different characters...I know.
As for actual, you know, effect on the game, I'm still conflicted over which is better, but I'm leaning towards the 2 Spellsingers for general-purpose reliability (i.e. they don't have so much to fear from the occasional magic-heavy army), but I still miss the Branchwraith a lot. I kind of think they should have made Branchwraiths a bit more useful in some way, because I agree with Wintersdark that they're really only a good bet now if you're already going magic heavy.

Sinew
17-10-2005, 09:06
My only real input is why not make the Treeman an Ancient as you don't currently have a lord choice? I know it makes an already expensive unit more so, but it takes a 100vp prize off a 2W T3 spellsinger and allows you to get some leadership benefit out of your general. Treemen tend to go in the middle of the line unlike mages on elven steeds, so you may get some reliability on your Glade Guard, plus the Ld 9 is useful for his stubborn and you get yet another bound treesinging. In addition you could then give him the Cluster of Radiants and think about trading in the Branchwraith if you're not sure about her.
Where to get the 40pts for the upgrade? I'd consider dropping one warhawk. Three could probably do pretty much as good a job as 4 warhawks, and sometimes you won't get all 4 in combat anyway.

Wintersdark
17-10-2005, 12:08
It does allow you to put Netlings on the treeman, too - a personal favourite of mine. Protect him from gribbly characters in challenges. With netlings, a treeman can take down a bloodthirster! :)

amagi
17-10-2005, 14:39
That's an interesting suggestion Sinew, and it's not something I thought about. But I'd have to say that that's really going in the direction of an entirely different army. I'll probably do something like that in another list, using this army as a template. But for this list the Ancient kind of goes against the strategy and the spirit of the army. I would defintely want to give the Ancient an Annoyance of Netlings, and probably at least one other Spite as well, which means I've just added 200 VP into the model (upgrade + Spites + dead General). The mounted Spellsinger as the General is unlikely to die, since I'll always stick her out of LoS or in a wood. It better fits the points denial goal. (Yeah I know having points tied up in the Treeman can be thought of as a kind of points denial, since it's hard to kill. But a handful of war machines or mages can still take him down.) And if I did this I might even drop the second mage/Branchwraith altogether, which again is a wholly different list.
Nice idea though.

Oh, and I've been arguing this for a while now, but I really prefer 4 Warhawk Riders to 3. The unit is so superbly capable of positioning for flank/rear charges, it's a real shame to bet their +1/+2 bonus on the life of just 1 model. With 3 models in the unit, you only have to cause a measly 2 wounds against T3, 6+ armour save, and the unit loses the bonus and becomes significantly weaker.
Also, most of the time having 4 models will give you the extra 2 attacks without bringing any extra enemy models into combat, as 3 40mm bases will usually bring in every model of any typical unit.
Occasionally you won't be able to fit the 4th model in to fight, if you're charging from the side for instance, but the extra one just means that in this case you still have 3 models touching even if one already died. I think people just automatically take the least amount because it makes more sense to do so with GR and the like (though I still prefer 6 Glade Riders, for similar reasons--but not always--notice in this list I took units of 5 to get more units.) Also there is the legitimate point that 40 pts is a lot for that 4th model. But I think it's well worth it unless you really need the extra points. This army relies on combined charges, on maximizing attacks, and on getting those flank/rear bonuses. It doesn't pay to take a unit that will lose those bonuses at the slightest tap by the enemy.

P.S. I just wanted to mention, not in response to anyone, that the 25 pt item on the second Spellsinger (Lamentation) is strictly optional and interchangable with any other 25 pt item. The main point of this list was to determine which models I'll be collecting. I know that the Lamentations might not accomplish that much, especially against high Ld armies, but it looks like a fun little option and it's not committing me to anything in terms of models, so there you have it.

Wintersdark
18-10-2005, 03:11
I'm starting to lean a bit to wanting a fourth warhawk, to be honest. I'm finding that if I stick them in combat, they tend to lose a hawk after a round or two, then without their +2 rear bonus (the whole reason they are there, after all) they are a liability instead of an asset.

However!

I'm still not convinced they are worth spending *another* 40 points on - it may well be better to just have them leave block units along and continue hunting light stuff. They're really good at that, even in a unit of 3. Fast cav, in particular, make a very choice target.

amagi
20-10-2005, 05:08
So the Ultimate Ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom (WEAD) has been officially playtested. Needless to say, I won.

I played an interesting Lizardmen army of Evil Incarnate's. It had 7 or so units of Skinks, including one of the Chameleon variety, 2 units of 3 Kroxigor, some Swarms, and several small units of Saurus. 2 Skink Priests, a scouting, flying Skink hero, and the General was a Saurus Hero with that item that gave him a 9" move.

My Alter did not appreciate the Saurus trying to beat him at his own game, so he didn't even bother with the Hail of Doom Arrow and opted instead to lop off the cheeky lizard's head in the first round of combat. (After putting a Saurus unit to flight--he charged the Saurus Hero on a redirect when the Saurus unit fled. The Glade Rider unit charging alongside him redirected into the flank of another Saurus unit.)

Similarly, the Waywatchers broke and chased away a scouting Skink unit naive enough to actually contest the control of a forest. (We forgot that the damage version of Treesinging has no range limitation, or that little Skink unit wouldn't have lived long enough to fight anyway.)

The Treeman's root attack did maximum damage and wiped out a unit of 10 skinks in one shot. This cleared the way for my Warhawks, Glade Riders, and Waywatchers to shoot at the Kroxigor behind the departed Skink unit. Caused 4 wounds, Kroxigor panicked and ran.

He resigned at this point.
In all, one Waywatcher died in combat with the Skinks, and some Javelin Skinks killed 3 Glade Riders, (thereby scoring the only victory points against me--half points for one Glade Rider unit.)

If we had kept going, all his Saurus and Kroxigor would have died, along with his Skink Priests, as I didn't even have time to get my Wild Riders or Treeman into combat. He argues that the flying Skink hero and his Scouting unit would have killed the Glade Guard units. I doubt it actually, since in my turn I could have turned and shot with one or both units at the threat, and then shot again on a stand and shoot. It's possible though. Either way it would have been a Massacre.

Granted this was an unconventional trial, and I won almost entirely because of a couple of shooting phases and one combat round of the Alter. But I'm more than pleased with the army. I could see how it functioned on the table, and how it would probably work in other situations.

I'll definitely be buying this one.:)

Lord Anathir
21-10-2005, 18:42
i agree with akuma. Magic will screw you over.... With woodies especially, i wouldnt take anyting less then 6DD and 3 scrolls. probably take something like 2 lvl2s with 3 scrolls, the deepwood sphere and a branchwriath with cluster of radiants. And alter kindred lord of course. ld 8 gnereal that important when everything accept ur gg and griders are immune to physc

....woodies can definently win combats....but if you form a nice box on a flank or around warmachines, somwhere where they cant surround you.

I know what msu is about,but when ive got 11 pd a turn + 2 bound items (casting 4-5 magic missiles/turn) and a couple of warmachines ive got enough stuff to completely wipe out units. Ill keep everything close to my blocks of infantry and protect my flanks with my support units. Any good player will make sure ur warhawks dont survive one turn in the open

EvilIncarnate
21-10-2005, 19:32
I want a rematch!

I was drinking beer!


I know what msu is about,but when ive got 11 pd a turn + 2 bound items (casting 4-5 magic missiles/turn) and a couple of warmachines ive got enough stuff to completely wipe out units. Ill keep everything close to my blocks of infantry and protect my flanks with my support units. Any good player will make sure ur warhawks dont survive one turn in the open

That is if he lets you see him. I think people forget that there is terrian on the table to hide from those magic missles. Plus, nearly all of those units are under 200pts, so what if you kill one of them they are worth noithing campare to your big blocks unit with those nice little standard. I take it that you are playing an Empire army?

Akuma
21-10-2005, 20:21
Lord Anathir don't bother giving advice to him :D he just wants you to tell him that he's army is flawless and that he's doing the right thing buing it :/ . Magic will munch through him like theres no tommorow and it doesnt mean it needs to be magic missiles

- With 4 dice TK will shoot him to death or catch his week units with double moving chariots ( and not tunneling scorpian )

- High Elves with few dices but good set up and 2 Rbt will make him suffer

- Skaven :/ - ehh

- Empire :/ - ehh

- Lizards with slann and lods of skink combination - whole scouting army with slaan

- New Dwarfs and anvil and organ gun and gyrocpoter

- Undead with creating new units and poping them on him it the same turn

- Brettonia with lods of knights and pegsi

- Choas with Dragon

- Beastama ambushing army

so on and so on ....

Just about every army out there has lods of ways to deal with him and he wouldnt winn any tournaments in our area :/

Btw i was playing WE - but thay just dont get high in tournaments and thats way i've changed them.

amagi
21-10-2005, 21:43
Yes, if you don't take at least 6 Dispel Dice and 3 Dispel Scrolls your army is crap and you are an idiot.
Brilliant commentary Akuma/Anathir. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways.
You are obviously a couple of Warhammer geniuses.

Akuma
22-10-2005, 08:42
Magic defense is not all about diss dice and scrolls. If you would have sufficient means of taking out mages ( hunters talon , peagant of shrieks ) I wouldnt bother you. But calling your army Ultimate , and saying it will get to the tops of tournament lader where most powerhouse armys realy on magic support ( from 6 to 12+ powerdice and 1to3 bound spells ) is just streaching it. I've shown you problems with most of armys that you'r rooster will have - you just didnt bother to read throught them :D. And nobody saying you'r an Idiot ( exept for yourself that is ) I even said that you'r army looks good but only aginst certain opponents and in friendly games you would have fun playing it. If you'r tournament area isn't as powergaming my ... well thats good for you - just don't expect to win any Gt with this.

Cheers

amagi
22-10-2005, 15:23
If you look very, very carefully, you'll see that I mentioned that the title was a bit of a, you know, joke. And I never made any claims about tournaments, which I do not play in.
If I was going to a tournament I'd probably just swap the second mage's extra item for a third Scroll. And then I'd feel perfectly fine about magic. People have this hysteria about having perfect protection from the magic phase. It's just one phase. You don't obsess about having perfect protection from the shooting phase do you? The armies some people are suggesting have so many points sunk into characters just for magic defense that they suffer in other respects.

And just because I don't have a sniper item does not mean the army can't mage hunt. It can--far more easily than the vast majority of armies. Wood Elves almost inherently have mage-hunting capabilities. Not that mage hunting is a crucial or absolutely necessary part of my strategy. But it's an opportunity that I'm better equipped to take advantage of than most.

Anyway, besides magic, almost all of your other criticisms are unfounded, and reveal either a lack of experience with Wood Elves, or a failure to understand the possible strategies they allow.
Like I already said, almost everything that you call a weakness of my army applies to every Wood Elf army that is not played as a traditional battle line with big block troops and tough, expensive units. But people are finding that playing Wood Elves in this pseudo-MSU way is an extremely effective and versatile playing style.
Your list of armies that will supposedly maul these types of Wood Elf armies is just completely wrong. I've played several of them and won fairly easily.
And every style of army has strong points and weak points. If you think that by pointing out that Wood Elf armies of this type have, (shock) some vulnerabilities, you have therefore refuted their effectiveness or proven that you know more than every Wood Elf player who is successfully using these armies, you're mistaken.

I understand people being skeptical of this type of playing style if they haven't had much experience with it (or maybe if they played a few games with someone who didn't know what he was doing--these tactics are difficult after all). But to dismiss the whole army strategy as weak is a fallacy of ignorance. Whether this army or something like it could compete in high-powered tournaments is another question. I think it would do much better than you think. There are a tiny handful of specific extreme tournament armies that it might struggle with, but that is true of virtually every type of army. That's why those extreme armies are regarded as powerful. That doesn't mean it couldn't win.

Every army has trouble dealing with super-heavy magic undead popping up units everywhere. But the fact that my army doesn't rely in any way on rank bonus means I have far less to fear than most. Every army has trouble with a combat god on a Dragon. But the fact that my army has many fast troops that can avoid it, and the fact that even if it catches something, my units are all cheap enough so that it was probably wasting its time, means that I'm not as vulnerable as an army of block units. Every army has trouble with a Beastmen ambush army. But the fact that I'm highly mobile and don't have a conventional battle line with flanks and a rear means I can, and have, outmaneuvered and beaten them. And I'd just love for those beast herd units to follow me into the forest... Every army has trouble with High Elf Bolt Throwers. But the fact that I can quite easily shoot all their crew dead in one or two turns means that I can, and have, easily removed the threat and beaten them.

So for you to claim that these types of armies prove how weak these mobile Wood Elf armies are, shows that you have much to learn about this playing strategy. And to further claim that "just about every army has loads of ways" to shut down these WE armies shows that you may have a brain disease of some kind.

Akuma
22-10-2005, 16:53
shows that you may have a brain disease of some kind.

Well this was definitly wrong way to go ...

But - to prove you'r wrong I've build up 2 armys that are far better then your's.

one of them can be viewed in Treeman-lord thread ( spellweaver one ) and the other is a extrem case of what you are trying to achive. and will be posted later.

The fact that you dont understand how valnurable to terrain , enemy magic capabilitys , number of enemy missile troops and so on , you'r army is points that you'r theoretical player. You say that you want to collect such army so I'm trying to HELP you and you INSULT me - this points out your level of inteligence.

The purpose of this forum is to have fun , shere ideas , tailor army lists and such - not to make ambitious standpoints about toysoldiers :/ ... but you just got the wrong idea... it happens

I've played similiar armys long before you thought about warhammer and i tell you - the assumption that you will outmanuver everybody out there is just plain wrong. The fact that you have only 2 units that can do damage is wrong ( GR are rank removers so i don't cout them as damegedealers ) - even seeing how ridiculus amount of luck you had in you'r test game shows that there is something wrong with this rooster.

The standpoint you try to defand - that I'm picking on WE weekenses as a army is just not valid as those are weekneses that should be minimalised - and this can be done as you can see looking at my rooster.

If you don't want oppinions , are afraid of them and can think creativly and take other people thoughts under concideration WHY BOTHER TO POST AT ALL ???

amagi
22-10-2005, 17:05
Why is it that the person who comes into a thread acting condescending, flippant, and contemptuous--always turns around and starts moaning about the rudeness of his victims when they say the slightest sarcastic retort to his insults?
Thanks for your input Akuma.
This thread has served its purpose.

Akuma
22-10-2005, 17:11
shows that you may have a brain disease of some kind.

If this you'r idea of sarcasm :rolleyes:

Then you'r welcome.

celestine
22-10-2005, 18:18
Please God! I can't stand reading any more you'rs! Please Type it properly It is either you are which is shortened to you're or your with no apostrophe. An apostrophe is used to show ownership or in place of a missing letter please do not use it when it should just be your It really aggravates the reader.

Celestine

Edit; also to relate this some what to the thread, I like your list it seems very effective however, if you don't want these kind of replies then don't act so cocky. It's ok to say that you think you'll win etc but Saying things like "needless to say, I won" Is just a bit OTT so you can expect some people to say a few things about it.

Sorry for the rant.

amagi
22-10-2005, 19:37
IT'S THE ULTIMATE WOOD ELF ARMY OF DOOM!!!

WEAD will crush you all!

No seriously, I think for this type of Wood Elf army style (which I suppose you could loosely call pseudo-MSU w/ shooting) this army, particularly the second version of it on page 2, is a very good and efficient balance of unit choices.
But I certainly never claimed to take sole credit for it. Like I said it's an application of various tactics I learned on this forum as well as through playtesting experience. Besides, there are a lot of great WE lists that nicely accomplish a similar strategy with some variations. I'm not claiming that this is THE best Wood Elf list. But I am claiming that this list is very good indeed at the strategy it's designed for.

Thane McHammer
22-10-2005, 19:59
and this can be done as you can see looking at my rooster
Yes, ladies and gents, it's the amazing, the better-than-yours-anytime, Super Rooster! *buck-buck-awwwk!*

Ahh…anyway, pot-shots at incredibly bad (yet humorous) spellings, I do believe that this discussion has gone downhill…but to play “Devil’s Advocate”, I shall make my post…

I do believe that amagi’s list is quite good, and is an exception to the usual ‘rank and file’ block armies that are out there. As a fledgling Wood Elf player myself (at least, until the release of the new Dwarf codex), I have taken his list into account and use it as a base for my own tactics. The number of dispel dice and scrolls in his army suffice to the extent that if he places his units correctly and utilises his strengths, he should be fine when it comes to magic missiles, shooting, and the proverbial “Raping Bolt Throwers”. His list plays fast and hard, surgically striking at certain positions within his enemies’ battle line to cause maximum havoc and disruption, while using his speed and cheap, but highly effective units, to deny the enemy those same bonuses. How can you attack the enemy’s flanks when he doesn’t have one?

All in all, it is a most interesting list, and can be strong and effective if used in the right hands.

Now…Akuma, perhaps it’s because of the kebab I ate, or having to wade through mounds and mounds of horrid spelling, you‘ve irked me. Your blatant “Oh my gods! Your army is absolutely horrid!” (I won’t lower myself to using leet or the usual such spelling and wording that associates such remarks) comment in your first post shows that you’ve got a very basic grasp of what it means to be a good critic: Positive vibes, baby (to quote). The title was basically meant to be a joke, but the army list and tactics themselves are sound, crafted and tried based on advice and comments made in a long tactics thread. Yes, he might have been arrogant in his “ULTIMATE ARMY” pronouncement, but your approach of trying to shut him down and shred his ideas is much more debased than anything he could have pulled.

Your advice seems to revolve on the idea that every army should be ready to be taken to any tournament and be able to shut down things in the magic phase, while still keeping the coherency and power that it needs to win. Armies that consist of blocks of tough infantry backed by powerful characters and specialised units can do this most of the time, but even then, they can be outsmarted and outclassed. Your inability to grasp the concepts behind a swift, surgical force shows that you could only have either a very shallow or very narrow view of tactics, and in your arrogance, try and destroy someone who is simply trying something unique and ‘unusual’.

Assuming you are a player aged somewhere between late twenties and early thirties (judging by the comment of playing Warhammer long before amagi even heard of it) or older, you might have a good grasp of the game, but your manner of writing, giving of advice, and level of communication seem to be of someone much younger, and extremely arrogant. Assuming as well that you were playing Warhammer while I was simply a collection of rapidly multiplying cells, which floated in amniotic fluid within my mother’s womb, one would think that you would also have a grasp of the basics of English grammar*. While it is a low blow to comment on another’s spelling and grammar, I am feeling in the mood. So, therefore, I now present to you your final post, edited and presentable.



Good point, but to prove you’re wrong I've created two armies that are far better then your army presented here.

One of them can be viewed my Treeman Lord thread ( the Spellweaver one ) and the other is a extreme case of what you are trying to achieve. That list will be posted later on.

The fact that you don’t understand how vulnerable your army is to variable such as terrain , enemy magic capabilities , the number of enemy missile troops, and so forth , your argument points towards that you are a theoretical player. You say that you want to collect such an army, so I am simply trying to assist you in this, but you insist on insulting me. This level of ignorance towards advice can surely be an indicator of your own intelligence level.

The purpose of this forum is to have fun , share ideas , assist in tailoring army lists and other such things. not to make ambitious standpoints about toy soldiers. I feel that you have gotten the wrong idea, but do not worry, it happens.

I've played similar armies long before you thought about Warhammer, and I tell you: the assumption that you will out-manoeuvre every other army out there is just plain wrong. The fact that you only have two units that can do direct damage shows a weakness in the list, ( Glade Riders are rank removers so I wouldn’t count them as damage dealers ), and the ridicules amount of luck you had in your test game shows that there is something wrong with this roster.

The standpoint you try to defend, that I'm picking on Wood Elves weakness as a army, is not valid, as the aforementioned weaknesses should not be very apparent.. If you take a look at my army roster, you can see an example of this.

If you don't want opinions , are afraid of criticism, can’t think creatively and/or take other people’s thoughts into consideration, why do you even bother presenting us with a list to review?

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the cookie crumbles.

((*) Unless English is your second or third language...but the point still stands)

Furiwel_NightShadow
22-10-2005, 20:19
Well this is my WEAD, i never lose with it:1500pts.
2 Spellsingers Nvl2, one with two dispel scroll, and the other with a Calaingor thing.
1 Branchwraith with the +1Disp.
3x8 Dryads units.
2x5 Glade Riders.
1x7 of Kournous tith all the command group.
1 Treeman.

For me this are the best units in the Wood elf army. The fact is that I never believe that the noble or Highborns are for use, just for lose points, because with that Toughnees even a gnoblar cant make them crie.The elves are not for a frontal combat. They die to fast if you charge at the wrong unit.
I base all my combat in the Trees Singing, cutting the way of the best units of the enemy.

celestine
22-10-2005, 20:52
Dear God people..... *cries* please... please! I can't take it! Could the mods please allow a test to be enstated so that anyone wishing to post on the English language boards is prooved that they can actually speak the language?



For me this are the best units in the Wood elf army. The fact is that I never believe that the noble or Highborns are for use, just for lose points, because with that Toughnees even a gnoblar cant make them crie.The elves are not for a frontal combat..... (One correct sentance here)
I base all my combat in the Trees Singing, cutting the way of the best units of the enemy.

Seriously though this post is nigh.... I....:cries:

Reinnon
22-10-2005, 20:57
Dear God people..... *cries* please... please! I can't take it! Could the mods please allow a test to be enstated so that anyone wishing to post on the English language boards is prooved that they actually can speak the language.



Seriously though this post is nigh.... I....:cries:

erm....i understood what everyone said fine.

anyway, the list is good, but akumas comment does some have some worth that super magic armies will give you some problems.

however, without going completly magic its very hard to avoid that problem, i say go with the list

Akuma
22-10-2005, 21:06
Yes, ladies and gents, it's the amazing, the better-than-yours-anytime, Super Rooster! *buck-buck-awwwk!*

Yet i didnt see any of your comments on it ...


His list plays fast and hard, surgically striking at certain positions within his enemies’ battle line to cause maximum havoc and disruption, while using his speed and cheap, but highly effective units, to deny the enemy those same bonuses.

Just tell me what fast hard striking unit he has ??? Exept for wild riders ???


As a fledgling Wood Elf player myself (at least, until the release of the new Dwarf codex)

So a person with "must buy new army" syndrome ...


but your approach of trying to shut him down and shred his ideas is much more debased than anything he could have pulled

Does word "relative" rings any bells ???


Your advice seems to revolve on the idea that every army should be ready to be taken to any tournament and be able to shut down things in the magic phase, while still keeping the coherency and power that it needs to win.

My advice is based on idea that every tourney army should be able to survive magic assult at least for 3 turns. We are valnurable as a whole but this doesnt mean thay should be taken as no magic defanse army and 4 dices and 2 scrolls are just not enought.


Your inability to grasp the concepts behind a swift, surgical force shows that you could only have either a very shallow or very narrow view of tactics, and in your arrogance, try and destroy someone who is simply trying something unique and ‘unusual’.

1) I've played similiar DE army and won tournaments with it. I have chaos Vp denial army and won tournaments with it. If there is someone here who doesnt understad the concept of surgical striking force its you my friend - to be dengerous you must have units that can do damage - one of my remarks was the number of unit that can acctualy give combat resolution. Wildriders , Treeman and thats all - you wont do anything with glade riders other then remove rank bonus from a unit - just do the math and you'll see - or use avian combat calculator for gods sake :/ ...

2) This army list is FAR from unusual just because WE were designed to be played like this - i just suggested minor tweeks ...


one would think that you would also have a grasp of the basics of English grammar*

Great - I'm deeply tuched ... no doubt about it - you got me here :rolleyes:


While it is a low blow to comment on another’s spelling and grammar

Now it's not - it's just childish :D

T10
22-10-2005, 21:25
Dear God people..... *cries* please... please! I can't take it! Could the mods please allow a test to be enstated so that anyone wishing to post on the English language boards is prooved that they can actually speak the language?

Seriously though this post is nigh.... I....:cries:

Actually, this post warrants a whole batch of LOL, ROFL and what-not.

Celestine, though I empathise with your pain at the mangling of the english language, I can't help but chuckle at your own errors.

Are you sure you would pass a written exam? :)

-T10

celestine
22-10-2005, 21:33
heh, yes I know I'm really tired and frustrated but I stand by my point. A test would be a good thing, even if it resulted in me no-longer posting :P. Infact probably even more so!

Celestine

T10
22-10-2005, 21:36
I guess if bad spelling was a crime then we all would have to turn ourselves in.

-T10

Furiwel_NightShadow
22-10-2005, 21:52
Well, sorry for my English, but the fact is that maybe I cant write in this language as you wish, but I know it perfectly well. I can speak the language, the problem is that I dont have too much opportunities to write it. Maybe you are a genius on the English ortography. I wish you could teach me. I just post an army list, why you dont use your time speaking about the list, and if you dont understand it, sorry.And if you dont have any idea about it just dont write anything, this is tactics.
Im starting to love this abroad-forums.
Sorry about the tone of the post, but I think that someone just can post:
Please could you try to write better?

amagi
22-10-2005, 22:15
Anyway, moving on.
I have a question.
Does anyone think it's worth it to drop a few things for a unit of 5 Wardancers? No Champion, just 5 models. Will that accomplish anything?

Dropping this would get me 5 Wardancers:
----1 Warhawk
----1 Waywatcher, and the Waywatcher Champion
----the Wild Rider Champion

I don't want to drop anything else because it would mean getting rid of a magic level and/or the musicians on the units that I know will be fleeing often.
I don't like giving up the Warhawk as it is, because as I explained I prefer 4 for several reasons. But maybe the chance of getting a few Wardancers into a combined charge is worth the Warhawk's significantly reduced chances of getting the +1/+2 flank/rear bonus? Even just 3 or 4 Wardancers could dramatically improve CR.

At first 5 just seemed way too puny, but then I realized that those units of 5 Glade Riders are even easier to kill, and have far less damage potential. Of course they negate ranks and are faster, but I've already got plenty of rank-negating units in this list. Some pure attacking power might be nice. Even if they die, it's only 90 pts., and it's one more thing for the enemy to waste his time on, chasing it around the table or aiming his firepower at it.

So at 90 pts., are 5 Wardancers worth it?

Akuma
22-10-2005, 22:34
I'm Glad you took my point under concideration - one unit of wardancers even five of them ( althought 6 seems to be the magic number ) will greatly improve your combat resolution potential. The fact that you remove minor things ( namly no reg or unit ) and add 15 attacks on charge with s4 - seems good option. If you would like to get back to the previous concept of using brenchwraith - you could - at the expanse of replacing waywatchers with scouts - use something like that : - it' quite similar - i've used it couple of times and it works - you don't have calingor staff but you cast treesinging 3 times onece on 3 as bound second time on 7 ( form 2 dice ) and third time on 10 from three dices so its less potent but gives you one dedicated fighting character - and 5 diss dices - and this is nice amount if you dont want to take out the treeman.

1 Alter Noble 158 Pts
Alter; Great Weapon; Longbow; Light Armour; Shield
Hail of Doom Arrow
Helm of the Hunt
1 Spellsinger
General; Magic Level 2; Lore of Athel Loren; Longbow
2xDispel Scroll
1 Branchwraith
Magic Level 1; Lore of Athel Loren
Cluster of Radiants
2x10 Glade Guard
11 Dryads
6 Scouts
3x5 Glade Riders
6 Wardancers
3 Warhawk Riders
5 Wild Riders
1 Treeman
1 Great Eagle
2000pts

If you stick to you'r original rooster make sure to take those wardancers - i usualy fild 2 regs of 6 and thay always win the game for me.

Furiwel_NightShadow
22-10-2005, 22:51
I think that the wild rider champion is very important for his unit because you need to break in the charge, so you need a lot of attacks.
5 wardancers it is too little number to win another unit. You have a lot of fast units, so maybe this unit fall behind the rest of almost all the army.
The best number for the wardancers is (7-9), if they are going to depend in theirselves. If you had more dryads units you could lowered the number.

amagi
22-10-2005, 22:54
Here is the Ultimate Wood Elf Army of Doom, version 3.1:
-----------------------------------
Total points---exactly 2000

187---Spellsinger, Second Level, (GENERAL), mounted on Elven Steed
Dispel Scroll, Calaingor's Stave (can cast Treesinging multiple times, adds 1" to the distance a wood is moved)

158---Noble, Alter Kindred
Hail of Doom Arrow, The Helm of the Hunt (+1Armour Save, on a charge gets +1 WS and +1A)
great weapon, light armour, shield (4+ Armour Save total, option of 3+ in combat with hw/shield)

150---Spellsinger, Second Level
Dispel Scroll

130---5 Wild Riders

129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician
129---5 Glade Riders, Musician

126---10 Glade Guard, Musician
126---10 Glade Guard, Musician

96----8 Dryads

115---6 Wardancers, Musician

120---3 Warhawk Riders

120---5 Waywatchers

285---Treeman
-----------------------------------

[EDIT: Changes from version 3.0: added a Wardancer and a Wardancer Musician, dropped Lamentation of Despairs.]

I think I'll try this one out for now. I really dislike the fact that both the Warhawk Riders and the Wardancers will lose their flank/rear bonus at the first angry glare from the enemy, but perhaps that is compensated for by the increased likelihood of a combined charge with either unit. After all, charging with the damaged units of 2 Warhawks and 4 Wardancers will likely give better results than just charging with 3 or 4 Warhawks with a flank/rear bonus. And like I said, just having an extra target unit helps.

I'm conflicted though...

@Furiwel, yeah a few more Wardancers in the unit would be nice, but this way the unit is more expendable. You say it is too weak, but it's weaker because it's cheaper.
And you have to compare the strength of the unit to what I'm giving up for it, not to some hypothetical bigger unit that I can't afford. And it seems as though I might not be giving up much. I'm getting a whole extra unit, at the cost of merely making the Warhawks a bit weaker, and to a lesser extent the Waywatchers. That extra unit might seem weak, but that's a bit deceptive, as they can still cause a whole lot of damage if they survive to charge.

Also I don't buy that the one extra attack from a Wild Rider Champion is crucial. The unit's primary purpose is to negate ranks, with a bit more hitting power than a Glade Rider unit. If I wanted a pure shock troop I would drop some other unit and give the Wild Riders a Standard, Champion, and War Banner. And either way it's just 1 attack, whereas the 5 Wardancers can have 15 attacks.

amagi
22-10-2005, 23:34
Actually, I like this a lot more now that I think about it.
Playtesting is required though.

Another advantage of this setup is that now, every unit besides the Treeman and the characters is 130 pts. or less. That's key. The Warhawks and the Waywatchers were a bit on the pricey side (for this army!), at 160 and 152. Now the enemy really has no good targets at all, besides the big wood monster of course. Let him try and chase my weak little Wardancer unit down. It's all part of the plan.

Lord Anathir
22-10-2005, 23:42
do you live in toronto? id love to challenge that list....so if its all that great as you say it is.

amagi
22-10-2005, 23:43
Unfortunately no. But use it yourself and tell me what you think! :)

Lord Anathir
22-10-2005, 23:44
you dont have enough frontal units.....drop a unit of glade riders and get around 8 more dryads.

amagi
22-10-2005, 23:59
Nope.
It's a valid way to go, but it's a different army than this one.
Here I want the shooting and the speed, and especially the rank-negating.
In fact the whole idea is that there is very little "front."

Furiwel_NightShadow
23-10-2005, 01:53
One more unit of Dryads makes a big change.It make´s it in the way that you loose a speedy unit for a frontal unit so you have to change all the idea that I think Amagi has of his army. That damages the mobility of the roster, and it doesnt really improve the front with a "strong" unit, because the dryads are not a really powerfull unit, like can be the Treekin or the wardancers, they are more like a supporting unit.

Lord Anathir
23-10-2005, 02:42
You cant get a flank if you dont have two units, there is nothing stopping me from moving my unit the face yours....remember your glade riders will be shot very easily....with two rbt and 10 archers alone (not to mention 10-12 pd +2 rings) i coule easily wipe out around a unit and a half in one turn. If i were to play against woodelves, ill make sure there isnt any kind of terrain near my army, or in other words, you have to rush out into the open if you want to get into combat against me.

About ur shooting, im not sure if it has occured to you yet, but 20 archers deployed in one rank wont leave you much room for maneouvering, and you will be wasting points.

its a strong list, but another unit of dryads instead of 5 glade riders would be much better imo.

EvilIncarnate
23-10-2005, 03:11
This is amagi.

Once again, about everything you just said applies to half the Wood Elf armies out there.
You won't put terrain near you? Oh darn. Guys, he just refuted the Wood Elves. GW will have to do a recall of the army book now. :rolleyes: :p

2 units of Glade Guard = bad?
Oops, scratch all those Glade Guard armies.

He'll shoot up all our small units?
Game over. I'll just play Dwarfs from now on.

Seriously, you're just pointing out general aspects of most Wood Elf armies.
Not that you won't have some success with some of those tactics some of the time, but it's not really relevant commentary on this army. And I hope you bring the arrow-proof variety of RBT, cause otherwise they just might get a few shots in their direction themselves...

And as far as the Glade Rider unit, see previous posts.:)

amagi
23-10-2005, 18:10
OK, just one final (I think) note.
I am dropping the Lamentation of Despairs and taking a 6th Wardancer + a Musician for the Wardancers (just because I have 7 more pts. and nowhere else to put them).

Like I said, if I were to hypothetically play in a tournament, I may swap the Lamentation for a 3rd Dispel Scroll and just go with 5 Wardancers.
But for normal play 3 Scrolls is not neccessary and the Lamentation wasn't going to do all that much half the time. I just feel better about the Wardancer unit this way. I don't think 5 is drastically weaker than 6, and I'd go with 5 if I had no other choice.

But I like this change because it, again, doesn't commit me to anything in terms of models, and I can easily switch lists if I want. I just need to buy a Wardancer Musician model.
I edited the Ultimate WEAD list to reflect this. :)

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

celestine
23-10-2005, 18:16
Actually, If you wouldn't mind I would love to know what kind of changes you would make to create a similar looking list at 1.5k?

Celestine

amagi
23-10-2005, 22:04
Good question. I'd say that because there are any number of different ways to trim the list and still come up with something decent, the best thing to say is probably just to follow the principles of the army's strategy. That should show you which units are the most important to keep.
What I mean is there are probably a lot of ways to make good 1500 pt. lists that somewhat resemble this, but if you want something that is truly the 1.5K analog of this particular army, you have to remain consistent with the key goals of the army, the most basic of which are:
---As much shooting as possible while still having as much mobility and combined charge potential as possible (preferably from rank-negating cavalry).

So the Alter Hero is probably key, for both the HoD and the force multiplier effect.
At least 1 Glade Guard unit is key because, while you give up some mobility, they're the best way to have a strong shooting phase.
Then to make up for this on the mobility side, and for rank-negating, at least 3 small cavalry units are necessary. Glade Riders are best because they contribute to the shooting goal as well.
The Treeman is a must, just one of many reasons being that with all these little MSU units you could use something with real strength.

[Keep in mind I'm not at all saying these are necessary for Wood Elf armies in general, just that they are if you want to keep the spirit and strategy of this army.]

So now it's just a matter of choosing between Wild Riders, Dryads, Wardancers, and Waywatchers for what to cut. You can play around with this and see what works.

Offhand, I'd say a possible rough draft would be to drop the Spellsinger on foot, 1 Glade Rider unit, the Warhawk Riders, and the Wardancers. That's 511 pts.
But this is just a first impression.

Furiwel_NightShadow
24-10-2005, 00:05
I know that Hail Doom Arrow is a really powerful object to use, but if the Alter Noble has to carry it, well, he will be really easy to kill, because it only will have a 4+ with all the extras and with the Helm of Hunt.
I allways put the Alter noble with the Helm of Hunt and with the Crystal Mere Stone.

redemptionist15
24-10-2005, 09:33
I like the list, however i feel it would be worthwhile trying to fit in a musician for the Wild Riders, i feel that you're missing out on a extra bonus for them, and i feel that all fast cavalry need a musician.

Looks good though, would be a tough list to face :)

amagi
24-10-2005, 10:02
Wild Riders automatically get a musician. And they're immune to psychology anyway so they can't flee from a charge, which makes musicians much less useful.

@Furiwel, I feel that the extra utility you get from the HoD arrow is well worth the vulnerability of your Hero. Careful positioning and picking the right targets to charge will mean that he has a good chance of surviving. And if he doesn't, well, don't forget that he's only 29 pts. more than one of my Glade Rider units, so he's about as expendable.

celestine
24-10-2005, 16:17
Ok, I've had a look deeply at your list and have mashed together this 1500 pt list. I would like to know what you think of it, anyway to improve it and weather or not you think it will function like your army.

1 Spellsinger @ 152 Pts
General; Magic Level 1; Lore of Athel Loren; Longbow
Dispel Scroll [25]
Calaingor's Stave [25]
1 Elf Steed

1 Alter Noble @ 158 Pts
Alter; Great Weapon; Longbow; Light Armour; Shield
Helm of the Hunt [20]
Hail of Doom Arrow [30]

1 Spellsinger @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Athel Loren; Longbow
Dispel Scroll [25]

5 Wild Riders @ 148 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Standard; Musician

5 Glade Riders @ 129 Pts
Spear; Longbow; Musician

5 Glade Riders @ 129 Pts
Spear; Longbow; Musician

10 Glade Guard @ 120 Pts

8 Dryads @ 96 Pts

1 Treeman @ 285 Pts

7 Wardancers @ 133 Pts
Musician

Casting Pool: 5

Dispel Pool: 4

Models in Army: 44


Total Army Cost: 1500

As you can see I have dropped some units but have basicly kept only units from the origional list. I have had to drop the second level from the general and I'm unsure if this makes my character choice valid. It means that I have only 5 casting dice and so am unsure if it's enough to make sure I can sing for the treeman.

Thoughts,
Celestine

redemptionist15
24-10-2005, 21:27
Wild Riders automatically get a musician. And they're immune to psychology anyway so they can't flee from a charge, which makes musicians much less useful.
Ahhh go me and not owning the woodie book. :)

amagi
25-10-2005, 17:22
Ok, I've had a look deeply at your list and have mashed together this 1500 pt list. I would like to know what you think of it, anyway to improve it and weather or not you think it will function like your army.

1 Spellsinger @ 152 Pts
General; Magic Level 1; Lore of Athel Loren; Longbow
Dispel Scroll [25]
Calaingor's Stave [25]
1 Elf Steed

1 Alter Noble @ 158 Pts
Alter; Great Weapon; Longbow; Light Armour; Shield
Helm of the Hunt [20]
Hail of Doom Arrow [30]

1 Spellsinger @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Athel Loren; Longbow
Dispel Scroll [25]

5 Wild Riders @ 148 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Standard; Musician

5 Glade Riders @ 129 Pts
Spear; Longbow; Musician

5 Glade Riders @ 129 Pts
Spear; Longbow; Musician

10 Glade Guard @ 120 Pts

8 Dryads @ 96 Pts

1 Treeman @ 285 Pts

7 Wardancers @ 133 Pts
Musician

Casting Pool: 5

Dispel Pool: 4

Models in Army: 44


Total Army Cost: 1500
It could work. Keep in mind I never play 1500 pts.
But I see a few problems here.

Like you said, dropping the magic level on your mage means that you only have 5 Power dice. Now, I've used just 4 dice to good effect before, but they came from one Second Level mage, meaning half the cost of your setup. I don't know that one extra dice and one Dispel Scroll is worth the 150 pts. for the second mage. I would guess that it isn't.
And by keeping the mage, you have to drop another unit. This army needs all the units it can get, because MSU doesn't quite work so well if it's really just SU.
But I wouldn't say that you have to drop the mage. That extra magic could give you a real edge. I would say that if you do take it, definitely don't drop the magic level. You can easily find 35 pts., considering that you bought an extra Wardancer and a Standard for the Wild Riders, which are not crucial. (And the Standard might very well be a bad choice, handing 100 pts. to the enemy. Personally I go for either 5 Wild Riders with no Standard, or 6 with a Standard and War Banner. Something in between could work, but 5 with no Champion is probably too weak to safely put a Standard on. Just my impression though.)

Other than that, the biggest problem is that every unit you dropped is a shooting unit. This really isn't the same idea any more as my army. Which is not to say that it wouldn't work, but personally I think that the strong shooting phase was an essential strength of the army, necessary for those times when your combat options are limited, or when the enemy has shooting units of his own that can take down your small and fragile little units.

The whole idea is that with the speed, shooting, combined charge potential, and just a few heavy hitting combat units to target key enemy units, this army doesn't need to focus so much on pure combat. So keeping all three of the original pure-combat units, plus the Treeman, is probably a mistake. At least if you want to go for the same general strategy as mine. If not, by all means make a more combat-oriented WE list, but it will play differently.

This army is far weaker in shooting than the original.
So I would say drop either the Dryads, the Wardancers, or the Wild Riders, and get back a shooting unit. I wouldn't say to automatically take the Glade Guard, although they do provide the best shooting. With fewer supporting units, having 2 lines of archers might be a bit too vulnerable at 1500 pts. I don't know. It might work. Either way, find some way to add shooting. Personally I would consider dropping the mage on foot, because as great as the magic is, getting a whole other unit and possibly even more shooting would really help this army.
But giving up the extra Dispel Scroll and the Treesinging is a pretty harsh blow, so I'd have to think about it carefully and playtest the different options.

Hope that helped.

Lord Anathir
25-10-2005, 21:39
amagi, unless u are going to playing on an open table, u are hardly going to be able to shoot with both ur missile units because of the terrain. Just because you have them in ur army doesnt mean they will shootall the time. I think one unit of 10 archers is all you need even at 2000 points.

amagi
25-10-2005, 22:07
Huh?
What kind of terrain are you using??????
Are you seriously telling me that I usually won't get to shoot with both units on anything other than an open table?
"hardly going to be able to shoot" makes it sound like it's some kind of guarantee that terrain will render two archer units useless. Honestly, that's a bizarre idea.

I literally cannot remember a game where terrain meant my archers had no targets because of terrain for anything more than a single turn, not in the 10 years I've been playing Warhammer.

Sometimes the enemy can use terrain to his advantage and hide certain units for a while. But it's extraordinarily rare that my units don't have some kind of target available, and usually a fairly good one.
And it's far, far more common in 2000 pt. games, even with a good amount of terrain, that I'll have plenty to shoot at.

We usually use a lot of terrain in our games, and we not-uncommonly have hills or woods in or near the center of the table. Terrain can play a huge role in these circumstances, but I've never felt like archers are a bad choice because of terrain. And I play shooting armies, Dwarfs and Wood Elves. I really am not sure what you're talking about.

Wintersdark
25-10-2005, 22:39
? In my experience, two units of archers, well deployed, will fire every turn. I play on typical 6x4 tables with 4-5 terrain peices, so it's not an open field either.

My dark elves typically brought two units of 10 RXB elves, and they nearly always fired.

And that's at 24" range, hitting on 5's if moving.

Glade Guard fire at a 30" range and hit on 3's when moving - there's no reason not to move them around to maintain a good firing position, and in fact quite a bit of encouragement to do so with the S4 at 15" and less.

Glade Guard - like all the shooting in the Wood Elf list - provide... encouragement.. for your opponent to act, rather than sit back defensively.

Curiously, I think the best tactic vs. wood elves is to get back away from WE-friendly terrain, and block up your units close together to protect flanks and provide mutual support. With suitable ability to project force at range, you force your opponent to move his troops out, and break up his formations - making them easy pickings for our fast-strike troops.

The more force you can project in this way, the more it will encourage your opponent to come to you. Obviously, you don't want too much, or too many points will be invested in that without sufficient power to follow through with smashing his army.

Still, two glade guard units is hardly excessive.

Lord Anathir
25-10-2005, 23:08
sure, its up to you.
But if ur opponent has a good grasp on strategy, it wont be to easy.

Lord Anathir
25-10-2005, 23:10
im not sure how its done wherever you goes play, we dice off for terrain. hence if im playing a shooty army i make sure i put a one or two farily sized hills to limit shooting channels.

Wintersdark
25-10-2005, 23:21
What do you mean, dice off for terrain? You roll dice to determine who sets up the battlefield? Or you randomly generate terrain? ?

In tournaments, terrain is pre-set (and typically fairly believable and neutral). In every private group I've played in, either a neutral party sets up the terrain or the two players arrive on a reasonable, fair battlefield. This is EASY to do with two mature players. Placing terrain specifically to screw your opponent is, in my opinion, poor sportsmanship. I've *never* played anywhere (and I've played in a LOT of places over the last decade or so) where people are allowed to place terrain to intentionally disadvantage the opposing player. Of course, because we dice off to choose sides after terrain is placed, in most cases it's in everyones best interest to have fairly neutral terrain anyways.

A hill plumb in the middle of the battlefield makes for a very unusual battlefield. Two and you're taking it even further - things like that only happen (around here, anyways) when we are trying to create a specific battlefield.


Anyways, I VERYstrongly feel that terrain placement should not be a tactical element of the game.


** This all only applies for "plain" battles - ones that are simply drop in games, not scenarios or representative of anything. In campaign games, or scenarios, terrain setup is entirely difficult. For example, a defending army in a campaign may well find itself a suitable defensive position from which to meet it's attacker.

amagi
26-10-2005, 03:26
I play only in casual games with friends, and we place terrain however we think makes for interesting games, which means that we often place it so that it will play a significant role in the game. A wood near the middle of the board is not uncommon, and more rarely, a house or a hill. The board is big enough (4x6 I think) that this leaves ample room for archers to aim. They very, very rarely have nothing to shoot at.

In fact this setup can even be a bonus for archers, because the enemy has to go through a narrower passage, and properly-deployed archer units can project a zone of fire over anything that comes though this passage.

Anyway, I agree with Wintersdark that terrain should generally not be a competition to disadvantage the opponent, but I also think that there's nothing wrong with placing terrain so that it will affect the battle. And it's perfectly reasonable for a Wood Elf player to put a wood in a fairly good spot, or for a Dwarf player to sometimes place a hill in his deployment zone. I wouldn't feel guilty about this. Of course placing a wood right smack in front of your enemy's deployment zone, a few inches from where you think his units will go, or covering with a big rock the hill that he'll put some war machines on, or something similar, is underhanded.

The best policy is just to make an interesting battlefield that has pluses and minuses to either side, and then to roll off for sides.

Wintersdark
26-10-2005, 13:50
Anyway, I agree with Wintersdark that terrain should generally not be a competition to disadvantage the opponent, but I also think that there's nothing wrong with placing terrain so that it will affect the battle. And it's perfectly reasonable for a Wood Elf player to put a wood in a fairly good spot, or for a Dwarf player to sometimes place a hill in his deployment zone. I wouldn't feel guilty about this. Of course placing a wood right smack in front of your enemy's deployment zone, a few inches from where you think his units will go, or covering with a big rock the hill that he'll put some war machines on, or something similar, is underhanded.

The best policy is just to make an interesting battlefield that has pluses and minuses to either side, and then to roll off for sides.

This is what I meant. Terrain should be placed for interested battles, but not to screw one side. Basically, it should be placed so that at least one of the table sides is at least a neutral choice for each player - a player shouldn't have to be faced with terrain set up so that he's screwed no matter which table side he picks.

Stuff in the middle is ok, depending on how big it is, and how big the table is, really.

Terrain will always affect the battle, and it should. People should be able to make good use of terrain, and include it in their strategy, but it should be set up fairly and reasonably.

Lord Anathir
26-10-2005, 15:31
The winner of the 'dice-off' takes the first pieve of terrain and puts it anywhere on his half of the table, and then the second person does the same thing. However,in tournaments, it is sometimes pre-set, and sometimes not. (from my experiences anyways)

Wintersdark
27-10-2005, 00:54
Yikes, no offense, but that sounds like a terrible way to place terrain - particularly if you already know what half of the table your playing on.

It's awful.

A far better method (although still not as good, IMHO, as the "reasonable battlefield" method) is to take turns placing peices then scattering them with arty dice.... THEN roll, as normal, to determine who chooses which table side they will deploy on.

It's critical that you determine your table side AFTER terrain is set, though.

Honestly, though, that's the worst method of terrain placement I've ever heard of actually being used.

Creating a situation where you can say that typically more than one missile unit is wasted because it'll never get to fire? Obviously, your idea of terrain placement is grossly unbalancing the game.

Lord Anathir
27-10-2005, 01:02
hmm...maybe i overaggerated it a little bit. I particularily detest preset scenery.

about the two units of archers, i still think the two units is a little too much. They are still st3 after all, albeit hitting on 3s. Anyone is going to stay out of close range, and if someone has good magic, this 'woodie army of doom' will be slaughtered. Maybe take those points from archers and spend them on more dryads?

Lord Anathir
27-10-2005, 01:18
also, one more thing, i mentioned this before, but i dont think anyone gave a really strong reply. When it comes down to flanking units, you cant really assume ur going to get a flank.
Lets zoom out a little for a moment. Ur 4 units of cav will get slaughtered if they charge the front of a infantry unit, right? Hence you must charge in the flank to 'easily break even chaos, with ease' I agree it is possible to charge one in the front and one in the flank, but it is easily aviodable, especially if ur opponent deploys on a flank (as he should against woodies). Also, how will u counter enemy shooting/magic? We all know woodies are very vulnerable to missiles. The idea is to have tough frontal troups that cant be shot easily (dryads (T4, skirmishers, ward save) )

I think amagi has too many flanking units and two few frontal units. Take for example a typical mixed army: 2 blocks of 20 infantry, 2 chariots, 2 x5 supporting cavalry units, a coupld of warmachines and supporting magic. Playing against woodelves, i would take my blocks of infantry and deploy nice and tight together, followed by the chariots and cavalry protecting their flanks. What then? Glade Riders have NO armor, one round of RBT fire and they are done! Wild riders arent that much better. Unless they are charging directly out of the woods they will be in the open for at least one turn. That turn is enough to shoot them to pieces. Warhawks are easy meat for archers and lite missile units. What would you do against a small compact army like that?

amagi
27-10-2005, 04:16
hmm...maybe i overaggerated it a little bit. I particularily detest preset scenery.

about the two units of archers, i still think the two units is a little too much. They are still st3 after all, albeit hitting on 3s. Anyone is going to stay out of close range,Come again??
Anyone. Will stay out of close range.

Anathir, you keep making these sweeping statements that bear little or no relation to real Warhammer, like the notion that taking 2 archer units means 1 won't get to shoot most of the time. Or suggesting that you can just stay out of close range and therefore negate Glade Guard somehow.

I'm not just trying to be confrontational here, but you keep saying things that are completely contradicted by every game I've ever played.

The whole point of Glade Guard is that they can advance and shoot. How is the enemy going to stay out of close range? Moving backward off the table? Even a mobile army, like an MSU list, has to come near you at some point if it actually wants to fight.
On round two a Glade Guard unit can be at short range for anything set up 12" from the enemy's table edge, and that's assuming that the Glade Guard only moved 5" in their first turn. And that the enemy is playing a stationary army. Most armies move forward.
It's just nonsense to say something like, "anyone" can simply avoid your archers whenever they want. The truth is exactly the opposite--it will be very rare that any army can easily avoid your shooting. Wood Elves are the best army in the game at bringing close range shooting pressure to bear on the enemy. That was a key element of their design. Did you miss that?

I think a lot of Wood Elf players will be scratching their heads over these claims of yours. Honestly, I don't mean this as an insult--I'm curious--have you actually played with Wood Elves much? Or is this just speculation?

As for that list you gave as an example of something this army would struggle with...
I would love to face lists like that. They'd be easy pickings. Just two isolated block-infantry units with a handful of support units? Chances are those support units will either go down in a hail of doom or will be taken out of the game by chasing around one of my many cheap, expendable units.
Your war machines will be prime targets for shooting, and at any rate they won't have any decent targets besides the Treeman, because everything's so cheap and/or hard to shoot at. I'm not much scared of the magic either. I don't buy for a second this rampant Dispel Scroll fetish--2 Scrolls and 4 dice is quite decent, and is easily sufficient for the vast majority of situations (and keep in mind that I can easily switch to 3 Scrolls if I want to, just by dropping a Wardancer + Musician). Like many other armies, I can take significant damage from magic if I get unlucky, sure, but Warhammer's full of many comparable risks, and I won't obsess over this one to the detriment of my other options.

Actually, your list describes almost exactly a game I played a couple of weeks ago with a list that was far inferior to the WEAD version 3.1.
I played against High Elves, and to summarize the list:
------------------------------------
2 Second Level mages, bound items, extra spells, the works

2 Repeating Bolt Throwers

2 Block infantry units

A few small supporting infantry units (Swordmasters, Archers--2 units of 10 Archers I believe)

2 Chariots

2 or 3 Silver Helm units (can't remember exactly)

2 Eagles

[EDIT: A unit of Shadow Warriors too]
-----------------------------------

Basically, exactly what you said. He even set up his block infantry right up diagonally against a house so one flank was completely protected by the house and the other was facing the table edge, just as you said, and the 2 RBTs were right on that flank as well.

As for me, I had 3 Dispel dice and 1 Scroll (:eek: shock :eek: horror :eek: ), less shooting (no HoD), fewer units (no Wardancers), and an Alter Highborn instead of a Noble. Otherwise the list was similar to WEAD.

I won by a large margin. First turn I wiped out one of his RBT. Second turn I screwed up and targeted something else, although I easily could have wiped out the second one, since, unsurprisingly, I had about 35 shooters with LoS to the thing. In any similar future game I would target all RBTs first, which means they'd probably be gone on my second turn. Eventually he caused about 3 wounds to the Treeman from the remaining RBT. (On the very last turn of the game his wizard managed to fell the Treeman, but only after his root attack killed the other wizard, he Terrified a unit or two off the board, and he forced the block infantry unit against the house to face him or be flanked, which allowed my Dryads to flank them from the other side and run them off the table.)

In general his other support units had no success chasing my units futilely around the table. A chariot charged a Dryad unit, did nothing, and then got charged and destroyed next turn by the Alter.
There were several instances of Silver helms charging units that just fled and rallied and survived the battle.

It was a somewhat close game, but I clearly won in the end, and I made several serious tactical mistakes along the way, which got both my Treeman and my Alter Lord killed. I will not make those mistakes again.
And keep in mind that this list was significantly weaker than the awesome and mighty WEAD 3.1. :rolleyes:
If I played this HE list again with WEAD, I'm extremely confident that I'd slaughter it. Brutally.

So in general, I'd say your claims about WEAD's alleged weaknesses are baseless.

EvilIncarnate
27-10-2005, 05:47
Oh you forgot the shadow warriors. Punk! Which ran at full speed to try to see stuff.

Anyways, Yes, you are correct about the game. It was close until the last turn where my 19 spearmen and the Commander broke from combat. I think that alone was about 450pts. That alone won you the game. That is the problem with block troops against the Wood elves.

But the point of it is that there was very little I could do. My plan was the same one you purposed Lord Anathir, try to stay close together and do as much damage as possible. It was hard to do damage with magic agaisnt this type of army. I even had a channler. There was a wood a little off the center of the battle field which kept moving and blocking some of my LOS.

But in the game I always thought I was on the defense instead of offense. Which is never a good thing.

Lord Anathir
27-10-2005, 15:34
so be it, but may i ask how you wiped out the rbt on ur first turn?
Considering it was set up 5 inches away from the table edge, hopefully away from any terrain so waywatchers cant pick it out.....in lost, do woodie longbows have 36 inch range, i thought they have 30.

I dont play woodelves, i play high elves.

amagi
27-10-2005, 19:39
5" from table edge = 31" from my deployment zone.
Glade Guard move 5".
They are now 26" from RBT.
RBT is dead.

Don't forget that I have several Glade Rider units and the Warhawk riders, and, in WEAD at least, the HoD Arrow on an Alter, so I can easily get many shooters in range. Things are going down 1st turn, almost always.

Wintersdark
27-10-2005, 21:36
so be it, but may i ask how you wiped out the rbt on ur first turn?
Considering it was set up 5 inches away from the table edge, hopefully away from any terrain so waywatchers cant pick it out.....in lost, do woodie longbows have 36 inch range, i thought they have 30.

I dont play woodelves, i play high elves.

heh so many problems with this :) Remember, Wood Elves do not suffer move-and-fire penalties, so a Glade Guard unit has a 35" effective range (move 5" and fire 30"). Glade riders are thus even more impressive with a 48" effective range... and on it goes, with all the fliers etc, as Amagi says. It's nearly impossible to protect a WM from all that shooting and still have it have LOS to your army.

The likelyhood of an RBT surviving turn one/two is more based on the WE players luck with shooting (and the randomisation between WM/crew) and how interested the WE player is in disabling that RBT so quickly.

For these things, I'm getting more and more attached ot the sniper items.

It seems people look down on them because it's very unlikely you'll kill a character with them - mage hunting, in particular, is certainly not nearly reliable enough.

However, I'm looking into them as a means to reliably "nail" WM crewmembers, ratling guns, etc. Not necessarily to kill them all, but being able to get a half decent chance to kill one crewman isn't bad, when you can support that with a volley of arrow fire... Thos sniper items don't exist in a vacuum.

amagi
28-10-2005, 06:46
WEAD 3.1 has been playtested once more!!!!
Against Bretonnians.
The only thing left of his army was 2 Knights Errant....
I won with a Solid Victory. Here's the list:
---------------------------------------------
187----Paladin, on a Royal Pegasus, Grail Vow, Virtue of Discipline, The Grail Shield
lance, morning star

215----Paladin, Battle Standard, on a barded Warhorse
Grail Vow, Virtue of Purity, Banner of the Lady (this 100 pt. item was useless in this game--it negates rank bonus--so I let him switch this for the banner that lets the unit ignore all terrain for a turn and take an extra Pegasus Knight and Musicians on the Yeomen to make up the extra points)

130----Damsel, First Level, on a Warhorse, 2 Dispel Scrolls

296----7 Grail Knights, Standard Bearer, Musician

279----9 Questing Knights, Standard Bearer, Musician
(he forgot these were of the Questing variety and played them as Knights of the Realm--wouldn't have made much difference in the game actually)

250----9 Knights of the Realm, Standard Bearer, Musician
Banner of Chalons

134----6 Knights Errant, Standard Bearer
134----6 Knights Errant, Standard Bearer

90-----6 Mounted Yeomen
90-----6 Mounted Yeomen

195----3 Pegasus Knights, Standard Bearer, Musician
(he used 4 in the game, because of the switched banner I mentioned above)
---------------------------------------------


The game was interesting because his army was so fast and so impervious to my shooting. But at the same time, I could basically plan well in advance which units I would let him charge or not. By far the most effective unit in the Brettonian list was the Pegasus Knights. They single-handedly killed the Wild Rider unit, the Alter Hero, and the Treeman, and caused the Warhawk Riders and the Waywatchers to flee from a single (redirected) charge. The Warhawk Riders promptly failed their rally and flew off the table. The Waywatchers passed but just got charged again by the Pegasus Knights in the next turn. They fled into the woods, and then failed their rally for the next 2 turns straight, effectively taking them out of the game. I hate Pegasus Knights.
In case you're wondering how the Pegasus Knights killed a Treeman, here's what happened:

Turn 3, Alter Hero and a Glade rider unit charges the unit of 7 Grail Knights with the Battle Standard Bearer and Damsel (the Glade Riders were on the flank of the Grail Knights). Combat is tied, and is tied again in his turn. Now it's my turn again, and the Treeman charges. Grail Knights break, everything pursues and the Alter runs down the Grail Knights.
The Grail Knights breaking caused a unit of Knights of the Realm in combat with my Wild Riders to panic. Wild Riders could pursue because they'd won the last round--they caught the Knights and ran into his general.
Now in his turn, the Pegasus Knights charge the Wild Riders (which just finished killing the enemy general), kill the Wild Riders, and overrun into my Alter. In my turn the Treeman charges the Pegasus Knights.
Combat: Treeman kills one Knight, then the Knight Champion kills my Alter (who already had 1 wound off). Combat would be tied, but the Pegasus Knights have a Musician.
Of course, I roll an 11 for my break test...and then a 4 for my flee roll...
You might say that the Pegasus Knight Musician killed my Treeman.

As you can see, it was an all-around bloodbath. I got revenge next turn when the Dryads slaughtered the Pegasus Knights.

I won by about 890 pts. If it weren't for failing the one break test with the Treeman it would have been a Massacre. Moreover, I rolled a 4 for the HoD Arrow, or his general would have probably died a bit sooner.

I made 2 errors in the game.
I exposed the rear of a Glade Rider unit to the 3 Yeomen surviving from the first turn's shooting. I intended to shoot them and finish them off or panic them, but I got distracted and forgot they were there (amongst the random casualty Yeomen models piled up). They charged and ran down my Glade Riders (I rolled a 5 or something).
The other mistake was exposing my Wardancers to a unit of Knights Errant. They died pretty quickly.

Other than that, despite the catastrophic loss of the Wild Riders, Treeman, and Alter Hero in effectively one charge from the Pegasus Knights, I felt completely in control the whole time. Outmaneuvering the (non-flying) Knights was a simple matter. And I literally moved a single wood halfway (lengthwise) across the board and back again (don't ask why). Meaning that several of my troops got a few extra feet of movement throughout the game, and I blocked off the charge of several units.

A mere Glade Rider unit, combined with an Alter Hero, held up the most elite cavalry in the game for 2 combat rounds, allowing my Treeman to finish the job and scoring me over 700 pts. (I would have gotten another 100 for their Standard, but the Alter died with it.) I worked out the averages, and it turns out I only got very slightly lucky--holding for 2 rounds was actually about what I could expect. It's just that in the charge, the Glade Riders killed 1 Grail Knight, whereas the average was actually 0.46 wounds. Other than that, the Grail Knights did one wound below average expected damage to the Glade Riders--2 Grail Knights killed 3 Glade Riders over 2 rounds, whereas on average they would have killed 4.
But note that even if all the Glade Riders had died (which I was actually expecting), as long as the Alter stayed, the Treeman could do his work. And if the Alter broke, the Dryads were nicely positioned to flank the Grail Knights in their new position, hopefully letting my Treeman rear charge a turn later. If the Grail Knights killed the Alter and then pursued the Glade Riders, my Wild Riders and another Glade Rider unit could have flank charged the Grail Knights.
All in all, those Knights were almost certainly going down.

One of the biggest things going for me was the small unit cost. My opponent was completely bewildered about which of my widely scattered cheap units to point his high-powered Knights at. The curses of frustration were enough to show that it was working. And even when he managed to kill something, it didn't get him much at all, but it did allow me to predict and control where he would end up after a combat.

We chose a Bretonnian Knight army because certain people have expressed worry over playing Wood Elves against this type of army. Personally I wouldn't worry about it much in the future. I ran circles around it.
A Pegasus Knight-heavy army, on the other hand, might be a different story...
But then, just about every army will struggle against that.
Maybe I'll try it, out of curiosity.

The bottom line is, WEAD has been vindicated once again.:D :D :cool:

Wintersdark
28-10-2005, 13:48
Congrats on the victory!!


One of the biggest things going for me was the small unit cost. My opponent was completely bewildered about which of my widely scattered cheap units to point his high-powered Knights at. The curses of frustration were enough to show that it was working. And even when he managed to kill something, it didn't get him much at all, but it did allow me to predict and control where he would end up after a combat.


This is key. Absolutely. In every game I've played so far, that's been my opponents' biggest problem. Most people have a couple hammer units, and anvil unit or two, and some support units. These armies suffer vs. Wood Elves, as there are no good targets for the hammer. We can avoid the hard, difficult to break Anvil units with ease, keep the hammer unit(s) busy (if need be sacrificing a cheap unit to do so), then slaughter everything else in the army with relative impunity.

I'm looking forward to facing my buddies Skaven Horde. He's pushing somewhere around 250-300 rats now, with medium magic (2 warlock engineers+storm daemon) and two ratling guns. I think this army may be a tough nut to crack - it's a very, very hard army, and he's a very solid player. The high unit count will likely make this more difficult than the knight army. There's no big expensive unit(s) to kill or distract, everything is pretty much the same. There's just lots, and lots, and lots of it.

This army also negates our shooting - we simply cannot do enough damage to matter at all. I'm definately going to hope for a table with ample forests, because I think we're going to *NEED* to use the forests to break up his formations and prevent his units supporting each other.

Without the forests, I'm not sure how we can deal with this army.

amagi
28-10-2005, 14:00
Yeah, next I'm hoping to play either a giant horde Skaven or Orc & Goblin army, or a magic-heavy Vampire list with lots of big Zombie and Skeleton units.
To try and define the limits of this army.
Should be fun--I think I'd do the best against the Orc & Goblin horde. As long as fear doesn't screw me over, I'm cautiously optimistic on the Vampire list as well.
Don't know about the Skaven. I've already beaten a fairly big Plague Monk army (wasn't there a White Dwarf list for Clan Pestilens or something--I don't think it was the normal Skaven list) with something similar to WEAD.

[EDIT: It was the Lustria list. Hah I forgot about Lustria, that's how much of an impact that little suplement had. I blame the mandatory Special Characters, and the general historical opponents permission unofficialness of the whole thing. It was much less interesting than it could have been, and therefore sold fewer models than it could have.]

But that wasn't a true horde. It was more like 4 or 5 big tough units with a bunch of skirmishing Censer Bearers everywhere.
So I'll put the Skaven horde army on the playtesting list.
Tell us how your game goes Wintersdark.

hsiehlt
28-10-2005, 14:18
Is it better to take 2 units of say 7 wardancers or a wardancer noble w/blades and 7 wardancers as an anti-knight force? 2 units of wardancers would have to pull off a combined charge, but the wardancer noble + unit could cause quite a bit of damage since knights don't have munch ranks.

Wintersdark
28-10-2005, 21:21
Well, you must remember with Wood Elves pretty much everything requires a combined charge, but that's not difficult to acheive with an army of largely skirmished and/or very fast units. VS. knights, I'd just as soon make a combined charge even with the wardancers+noble. My rule of thumb is to almost never have isolated units, so if an enemy unit is in one of my units charge range, he very likely is in another unit's charge range too.

In the case of the knights, I'd recommend getting two units in. The noble is very hitty, however he suffers from the same downside that your wardancers do: He lacks armour penetrating power. Now, you get over this with your wardancers through a combination of multiple attacks and killing blow. Bringing in a second 'dancer unit gets you FAR more attacks than the noble would. Because his armour will stop so many wounds, you need to generate as many as possible in the first place.

Lord Anathir
29-10-2005, 00:32
oh...excellent battle!.... brets are always difficult to play against. Dont worry about the pegusii, they are excellent, and you can always expect them to cause you problems. I count 5 units of knights on horse, plus two flanking units...thats not a light army.
you say 'playtested'. Does that mean that you will be taking this army to a tourney? If you do, I would be very interested to how it does. if it does really well, i just might try a woodelf army like this myself.

about the shooting of the rbts, u are right. All i was trying to say is that, there ARE ways to protect ur rbts. (all though i dont see how that would effect you/if you care). (ie, you could hide behind a unit, move the unit so that there is a small LoS crack, and hopefully what ever was shot is killed.) Im not saying it is fool proof, but sometime, you just might find urself unable to kil a warmachine.

once again, good job on ur victory.

Wintersdark
29-10-2005, 05:11
Well, they CAN protect their war machines in that way if they like, but that hurts them more than helps.

All the good High/Dark Elf players I know (and myself to, when I was playing DE) don't bother to protect their RBT's for a reason.

Basically, the only way to reliably protect them is to leave a solid unit nearby to block LOS and deter attackers - one strong enough to be able to take a charge from your hunter troops. This takes too many points away from the Elves attacking force, as Elven troops are very expensive. You're either giving up even more points leaving a easily killed unit to protect another easily killed unit, or tying up too many points leaving a full unit there.

I do realise that it's possible to use this on turn 1 or maybe 2, but Elven armies cannot be played in a static way as they can't handle the attrition that happens in that sort of battle. In all my games over the years - and I play several times a week - I can count on ONE hand how many games opposing war machines have lasted the game. Every time has been against static Dwarf armies, too, nothing else.

You're typically better off getting what use you can out of your RBT before it dies - and it will, there's no doubt of that - and not wasting more of your army delaying the inevitable.

As to how the army works in a tourny, you've got to realise that someone else's experience that way isn't particularly relevant to you. This sort of army requires specific tactics and playing style. Your abilities as a general are much more important than the army list itself - much moreso than usual. Thus, an army that works very well for one person may flop horribly in the hands of another, even if that other player is also a skilled player - you need to learn how to play the MSU game.

MSU works. It works really well. DE players showed that, being highly competitive even pre-revision when they were handicapped with a horrible list. Lists like this are very, very potent, but must be used very carefully.

Lord Anathir
29-10-2005, 17:04
I am just giving a different opinion. I am not saying it is the right opinion, nor am i saying that amagi is not a competent general.
If I like to protect my rbts so be it, i dont often let my rbts die so easily.

Wintersdark
29-10-2005, 21:29
heh but do they live out the game? Sure, it's an option, I just dont think it's a particularly wise one is all :)

Lord Anathir
30-10-2005, 01:33
Basically, the only way to reliably protect them is to leave a solid unit nearby to block LOS and deter attackers - one strong enough to be able to take a charge from your hunter troops. This takes too many points away from the Elves attacking force, as Elven troops are very expensive. You're either giving up even more points leaving a easily killed unit to protect another easily killed unit, or tying up too many points leaving a full unit there. I do realise that it's possible to use this on turn 1 or maybe 2, but Elven armies cannot be played in a static way as they can't handle the attrition that happens in that sort of battle. In all my games over the years - and I play several times a week - I can count on ONE hand how many games opposing war machines have lasted the game. Every time has been against static Dwarf armies, too, nothing else.

Thank you, but i dont need to be told how to play my elves. I too have been playing once or twice a week, always high elves, always 2000 pts, for 3 years now. Not to be conceited, but i think that i have learned by now what to do with my high elf army. (dont take any offense to that)


All the good High/Dark Elf players I know (and myself to, when I was playing DE) don't bother to protect their RBT's for a reason.

What makes them 'good' players? Do they win 90% of their games? I win 90% of my games, against different people and armies (not the same couple of people every week). I couldnt care less what other elf players do with their rbts...every game i go out to win and i do whatever tactics it takes to do so. One game i moved my rbts for 3 turns to move them to the other flank of my army to avoid them from tomb scorpians andto get a better los to ushabti.

Wintersdark
30-10-2005, 05:07
What makes them 'good' players? Do they win 90% of their games? I win 90% of my games, against different people and armies (not the same couple of people every week). I couldnt care less what other elf players do with their rbts...every game i go out to win and i do whatever tactics it takes to do so. One game i moved my rbts for 3 turns to move them to the other flank of my army to avoid them from tomb scorpians andto get a better los to ushabti.Well, percentage of games that you win isn't necessarily a good indicator of how good you are - obviously it's included, but there are a lot of other variables. Most noteably, of course, your opponents ability.

What makes them good players? They are. Our gaming group takes home stacks of awards after every GT(conflict, now) and RTT.

Anyways, I'm not trying to say that you're a bad player. Merely that protecting RBT's is often a waste of time and effort that could be spent much more productively. Spending three turns moving them is a clear indication of that: It sounds like they were deployed poorly, or they would have had better targets. Moving one to get away from a Tomb Scorpion is generally a pointless endevour at the best of times - even if you do manage to get far enough away from it before it pops up, and/or it scatters in a favourable direction) it's still going to get you the turn after it pops up pretty much no matter what you do. Rather than moving it, you're much better off getting in those turns of firing.

Excepting Helblasters, where due to the misfire chart you're better off waiting for one really good shot, of course.

amagi
30-10-2005, 05:56
I'd have to agree that most of the time measures to protect a war machine from LoS are counterproductive. But I can certainly imagine scenarios where it's possible to protect it for a while and still have some good targets.
They're definitely the exception though. Take that game against High Elves I described earlier.
There wasn't really a single place to put those RBTs that would protect them and still let them shoot at anything.

Basically, most of the time RBTs are going down rather quickly against my army.
Human War Machines have a slightly better chance due to the extra crewmen. Dwarf War Machines might be safer, but then again they'll likely still be the best targets, since shooting at block infantry will usually be a waste. Slayers or Thunderers/Quarrellers might still get shot at before the machines though. Besides, other than the Organ Gun, Dwarf War machines probably aren't too much of a threat to me compared to RBTs. With the major exception, of course, of the Treeman.
But then I can always surf the Treeman up in the woods and thereby protect him for most of the game. Or move a wood in front of the War Machines.

At any rate, this army has plenty of options for dealing with War Machines.

Wintersdark
30-10-2005, 09:01
Yup :) I'm actually itching to face a gunline. They'd get a grand total of one round of shooting off at me, then in the next round, everything would die. *cackle*

I certainly don't disagree that it's POSSIBLE to protect war machines, and in some rare circumstances even a good idea - just that overall it's more trouble than it's worth.

RBT's are definately the easiest. 2 LA equipped Elves do not make for a sturdy crew :)

Humans are also much better at protecting war machines than elves, having a large quantity of cheap, expendable troops like their detachments which can hang back and generally get in the way (archers are good that way). They're just a holding action of sorts, though - just delays the inevitable a very little bit :) I've found the extra crewman doesn't help much at all in combat, but he does make the war machine much more resistant to shooting. On the other hand, if you only kill off 2 of the 3 crew, at least it's not going to fire EVERY turn from then on!

Dwarves are different, though. I don't count on killing dwarf war machines, just holding them in combat so they can't fire (which, to me, is nearly as good). My warhawks may never kill those dwarven crewmen, but it won't matter, because the dwarves won't kill the warhawks either, and both have high enough leadership to just dance around for quite a while.

I can't wait to face a Dwarf army. I'm really looking forward to how much I'll be able to mess with the slow buggers - treesinging will cause them no end of troubles. With their limited movement, a couple treesinging spells can take a dwarf unit or two out of the battle completely.

Lord Anathir
30-10-2005, 14:56
Elvish RBTs are a 100 points each....thats quite a lot... not like a 45 point dwarf bolt thrower. If i have to give up a turn or two shooting at skellies that can be raised back so i can save a 100 vp, i will do that. The idea of moving them is so that i can shoot them the turn after they pop up and not getting charged immediately.
I agree with you that sometimes it doesnt make sense to protect them...ive got no problem with letting them go, as it could direct the enemy unit away from the main battlefield for a while.
Wood elves are definetily the best when it comes to dealing with warmachines...other armies have problems against them...like empire and armies that dont have reliable flyers, long range shooting, or decent scouts.

Of course I play against good players..... One of my regular opponents won conflict toronto with 5 massacres and his vc. A few of them are store managers of stores in ontario. And all of them go to tournaments and regularly finish in top ten.

IkuTurso
23-07-2006, 14:42
will this still be a good army in 7th edition?