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thinkerman
23-04-2008, 20:03
Hi again everyone,

Im a rather large 40K fan and enjoying geeking out with ideas and army lists for stuff.

Ive been reading up on my Guard, IA books and other sources. The new guard codex is out next year and having bashed a few throughts around in my head have come up with a sort of if i did it what would the content be list and here it is:

Imperial Guard Codex

*Intro to the Imperial Guard

*History of the Imperial Army and the transition to the imperial guard.

*Famous regiments and armies of the Imperial Guard (focus on cadia, catachan, vahalla, krieg etc)

*Imperial Guard Army list
-Taking your games upto Apocalypse
-Characters
-Standard rules and units etc

*Imperial Guard Combat Doctrine and tactica
-Tank warfare, armoured companies and rules
-Siege warfare and rules
-Flanking with armoured fists, tactics and rules

*Famous battles
-Armageddon 1,2,3
-Eye of terra
-Vraks and DKOK

*Hobby section
-Assembling and painting standard miniatures and tanks etc
-Converting units, scratch building
-Forgeworld section

*Built and painted Armies of the Imperial Guard
-Store/Staff/Gamers armies all converted, some small, some big, sort of a mini collectors/modellers guide with double page spreads of peoples custom guard armies etc inspiring people to collect, buy and model the guard.

*Doctrins
-how to customise your guard army, mixing rules and units etc

*Summary page

In all i suppose im after an army book with double the thickness and content of all current codex's, a hobby section and images to inspire us all that does the guard justice and not just a look at all the standard stuff we sell sort of book. I want conversion pages (thou how with the reduction in parts is anyones guess), scratch building tips, modelling scenic bases for your guard etc.

Is the above to much to ask???

What are your thoughts and ideas for new codex content and size???

Grimtuff
23-04-2008, 20:21
I would first cut down on the sheer amount of question marks. 1 is sufficient. Secondly I would do a search and see that this has been done at least twice (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133818&highlight=imperial+guard)before. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106394&highlight=imperial+guard)

Chem-Dog
23-04-2008, 21:01
I'd like the lot in there BUT I have to say it's probably safer to assume we'll get the same codex everyone else is getting (obviously it'll be different as it will be describing units in the IG list, but you get my point).
Hope they don't kill off Doctrines.
Hope they include some more of the natty little guardsman pictures they had in the previous Codex (for those who don't know, they were like the ones in the reknowned regiments section but about 25% the size).

Feor
23-04-2008, 21:48
I'd like it if they did another print run of The Uplifting Primer and included a voucher for 50% off with every Guard Codex, just so kiddies grabbing it for Shiney new army syndrome have some idea of what the Imperial Guard actually is. :p

Templar Ben
23-04-2008, 22:13
If they are killing traits I worry about doctrines.

Varath- Lord Impaler
24-04-2008, 00:02
I want them to use the Codex i made :P (Check my sig, i could use some more critisisms, wittisisims and playtests)

But really? I want more Fluff on battles the Imperial Guard have WON. In the current codex it references the battle of Tyrok fields around 5 times... and that was against enemy guardsmen.

I want to see the Imperial Guard working to its full might and crushing the enemy.

I want more Artwork of the like we have already seen.

I want profiles and background on the most victorius Imperial Guard commanders and their particular way of waging war.

in other words, i want a Codex, not a pamphlet.

Bloodknight
24-04-2008, 00:30
I hope they will still include pictures of Guardsmen that are not Cadian. Man, I hate these with a passion...;)

And Varath is right, some fluff where the guard wins would be nice.

Oh, and I wish the powerlevel were slightly higher than the current one (go, Phil Kelly...!).

Lord Raneus
24-04-2008, 00:40
~Doctrines
~Doctrines
~Doctrines
~Last but not least, Doctrines
Doctrines are the heart and soul of the Guard (almost) none of us want to play Generic Cadian Regiment #1337. If my Valenian Legionaires get killed off because Doctrines get scrapped, I will be very upset. It's an entirely different matter than Marines losing Traits or even Chaos losing Icons; Guard's Doctrines are, I am convinced, one of the reasons many people play Guard; the ability to customize a force to your liking, make its own backstory and fluff, and have those translate to actual, in-game rules, are awesome.

Draconian77
24-04-2008, 01:03
More importantly Doctrines are not imbalanced like many other DIY rules that GW produce. I agree with pretty much every previous post and I too worry about the future of Doctrines. If they are HQ based like the rumoured Space Marines would that be a good thing, a bad thing or something inconsequential?

Promethius
24-04-2008, 06:18
The problem is that guard are bad enough even with the advantages of doctrines - killing them would make that occasional win disappear! I like the format you have listed, thinkerman, although for battles I would rather have some resounding IG victories and not a load where SMs were involved or the end result was stalemate or defeat (no matter how many times you dress up EoT, chaos won).

Vaktathi
24-04-2008, 07:10
I think most of the Doctrines could be worked into current unit selection, allowing most of the same choices while getting rid of the framework. Granted I would rather keep the Doctrines system intact with some tweaks here and there, but losing them doesn't necessarily mean losing what they offered if its built into the list in a different manner.

IG platoons may have options like "take carapace armor at +20pts per squad" or something where the current Doctrines are simply unit options with some restrictions leveled.


But really? I want more Fluff on battles the Imperial Guard have WON. In the current codex it references the battle of Tyrok fields around 5 times... and that was against enemy guardsmen.

I want to see the Imperial Guard working to its full might and crushing the enemy.

I want more Artwork of the like we have already seen.

I want profiles and background on the most victorius Imperial Guard commanders and their particular way of waging war.

in other words, i want a Codex, not a pamphlet.

Dear god I cannot agree more.

It's pretty old having IG being the army that every other codex uses to annihilate in some horridly one sided fashion when it needs to look cool for its codex or battle report or have a character with an epic background. The Imperial Guard codex has no stories to match this in its own codex, but some defeats, costly Pyrrhic victories, and stalemates.

Lets get some fluff of the Imperial Guard breaking the Eldar and send them fleeing from the field in terror with a million boots, a thousand treads, and the crashing of guns without number, of the Guard crushing the Forces of Chaos and grinding them beneath their armored heel, of Tau shock at the massed might of the Imperium as tanks and soldiers fill the field as far as the eye can see and turn the very earth into shattered wastes and turn their ideals of quick and efficient combat to ash as they realize the true scale of their foe, and of other foes sent to their doom by the Hammer of the Emperor.

everyone else has cool stories like this, why can't Guard?


I would like to see much more in-depth background on the various guard factions and their famous commanders. Fluff on everything from Vostroyans, Cadians, Valhallans, Tallarn, Death Korps, Steel Legion, Savlar, Terrax, Tanith, Mordians, Praetorians, Catachans, Elysians, Harakoni, and the Imperial Stormtroopers.

And for the love of god, can we please get Macharius back?

Promethius
24-04-2008, 08:59
I think most of the Doctrines could be worked into current unit selection, allowing most of the same choices while getting rid of the framework. Granted I would rather keep the Doctrines system intact with some tweaks here and there, but losing them doesn't necessarily mean losing what they offered if its built into the list in a different manner.

IG platoons may have options like "take carapace armor at +20pts per squad" or something where the current Doctrines are simply unit options with some restrictions leveled.



Dear god I cannot agree more.

It's pretty old having IG being the army that every other codex uses to annihilate in some horridly one sided fashion when it needs to look cool for its codex or battle report or have a character with an epic background. The Imperial Guard codex has no stories to match this in its own codex, but some defeats, costly Pyrrhic victories, and stalemates.

Lets get some fluff of the Imperial Guard breaking the Eldar and send them fleeing from the field in terror with a million boots, a thousand treads, and the crashing of guns without number, of the Guard crushing the Forces of Chaos and grinding them beneath their armored heel, of Tau shock at the massed might of the Imperium as tanks and soldiers fill the field as far as the eye can see and turn the very earth into shattered wastes and turn their ideals of quick and efficient combat to ash as they realize the true scale of their foe, and of other foes sent to their doom by the Hammer of the Emperor.

everyone else has cool stories like this, why can't Guard?


I would like to see much more in-depth background on the various guard factions and their famous commanders. Fluff on everything from Vostroyans, Cadians, Valhallans, Tallarn, Death Korps, Steel Legion, Savlar, Terrax, Tanith, Mordians, Praetorians, Catachans, Elysians, Harakoni, and the Imperial Stormtroopers.

And for the love of god, can we please get Macharius back?

Quoted for truth. Every historical battle in the IG fluff (with the exception of Macharius) is either a case of barely holding the line or pyrrhic victory. Considering that the Imperium has survived for ten thousand years and that space marines are few and far between, the imperial guard must be winning the majority of its battles. Why oh why then can't we see that in the fluff? I want the Tau to be routed a couple of times, I want Ork empires burned, I want 'nids sent packing. All of these things and more the IG has achieved, at some point, it's just that to maintain the mythos of an empire on the brink of collapse the IG have to be cannon fodder.

There is also a strong case for a BL book containing information on just a few of the many IG regiments. Would it be so hard for GW to do an IA style series on IG regiments? The previous 'famous regiments of the IG' was good but lacking in scope - I would like regular articles with doctrines for each regiment, covering the famous ones mentioned so far and a few others. I also think that it's time the codex contained more information about how the guard functions on a brigade level and above; let's find out about those combat engineers, siege regiments and the rest and how they are incorporated into a battlegroup.

That's before we even get into the rules!

Petrov_101
24-04-2008, 09:59
Doctrines are dead. Just get used to the idea. They will be missed :(

infernus31
24-04-2008, 10:44
I would like a new codex with more stories of Guard actually winning. I would also appreciate at least a degree of mobility in the Guard because as now it just doesnt work without drop troops - make the chimera worthwhile and enable guard to grab objectives .

Bunnahabhain
24-04-2008, 12:55
Most of the above is right.

The book:
should have a decent background section
should have the Guard winning, without marines.

The army list:
should have sufficient mobility, through a couple of different means.
should be competitive, but not overpowered.
should have all units being useful.
should be flexible, through doctrines or similar

Da Black Gobbo
25-02-2009, 22:44
I'm on the boat, i want to see the first and last line of defense of the imperium kill something and without the help of the god damm marheens!

Dangersaurus
25-02-2009, 23:40
I would first cut down on the sheer amount of question marks. 1 is sufficient. Secondly I would do a search and see that this has been done at least twice (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133818&highlight=imperial+guard)before. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106394&highlight=imperial+guard)

One of which is 11 months stale and the other of which was closed for the very sort of thread necromancy you suggest?

On Topic: Personally I'm hoping for a good bit of overdone fluff, a good modeling section and a few pages showcasing famous non-standard regiments (sort of like in the current 'dex - I think the previous 'dex had more pics with fewer details?)

I'd also love a few Guard-specific non-standard missions, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

laudarkul
26-02-2009, 05:15
Background...A lot of and also a couple of new regiments...
A similar doctrine thing in order to have different regiments...
Campaigns and famous battles (and maybe some only with IG without the SMhelp; maybe also some with SoB)
I want it now:D...

T_55
26-02-2009, 08:14
I want to see lost of interesting new regiments as well as models for them, and doctrines.

Mojaco
26-02-2009, 09:04
I want what's coming. The codex seems to be shaping up perfectly.

Captain Micha
26-02-2009, 13:26
Step One, take a page out of the Space Marine Codex, and make Doctrines some kind of HQ related choice.

Step Two, make all units viable and worth having.

Step Three, Include Fluff of the Imperial Guard, walking over Rogue Codex Chapters breaking Smurf faces, Smacking Down Tau Incursions and Raping of Eldar that's so thorough that there is indeed Half Eldar running around in the galaxy, and repulsion of the Nids in an easy fashion (read like how Shadowsun did it).

Step Four, Bring in the Valkyrie.

Step Five, Ditch Ratlings. They're so stupid they aren't worth putting in the codex.

Step Six, Fix the Hideous and outdated Leman Russ model, make it look something like the Malcador, or Macharian, or possibly even the Valdor.

Step Seven, Include Inquisition forces as Elite Choices.

Step Eight, Include some kind of special Leadership type abilities so it actually seems like there is a point in fielding that mini hq crap with Platoons.

Given the rumors of the Ig codex, it sounds like and looks indeed like they are doing pretty much everything I want.. (though the fluff remains to be seen) Bonus points.

Step Nine, Give us real Psykers already. Those things in our codex that reek of feces? Those aren't Psykers. Give us Librarian or Eldar Grade please.

Step Ten, Can you please give the Ig fluff that doesn't make them sound like ****** that don't even understand how the lasguns they are firing work? "understanding of technology has long since faded from memory it's all mindless repetition" Also how about making the Mechanicus not so stupid as to think them praying to machines fixes them?

march10k
26-02-2009, 16:46
~Doctrines
~Doctrines
~Doctrines
~Last but not least, Doctrines
Doctrines are the heart and soul of the Guard (almost) none of us want to play Generic Cadian Regiment #1337. If my Valenian Legionaires get killed off because Doctrines get scrapped, I will be very upset. It's an entirely different matter than Marines losing Traits or even Chaos losing Icons; Guard's Doctrines are, I am convinced, one of the reasons many people play Guard; the ability to customize a force to your liking, make its own backstory and fluff, and have those translate to actual, in-game rules, are awesome.

From what I hear, most of what you can do with doctrines, you'll still be able to do, between this "platoon drill" thing I'm hearing about, and by carefully choosing your leadrer(s). In fact, some things will get better. Instead of a mechanized doctrine forcing you to buy chimeras for heavy weapons squads attached to your HQ platoon, you'll be able to save the points by "meching up" at the platoon level instead of at the army level...or so it appears.

OTOH, the most overspammed doctrine "grenadiers", may be dead...not sure you'll be able to do an entire army in carapace armor any more...which is fine by me, considering how unfluffy it was in the first place. Guard players with histories predating doctrines will cheer, while bandwagon guardsmen who turn up their noses at flak armor will probably move on to another army...which suits me just fine.

boogle
26-02-2009, 16:56
I would have the Codex as soon as possible!!

Joking aside, i'm more than happy with the way it seems to be panning out, so i would change nothing at the moment, but will revisit this thread when the book comes out

Vaktathi
26-02-2009, 16:58
OTOH, the most overspammed doctrine "grenadiers", may be dead...not sure you'll be able to do an entire army in carapace armor any more...which is fine by me, considering how unfluffy it was in the first place. There's a difference between Grenadiers and Carapace Guard. Carapace Guard is hardly unfluffy, there are plenty of fluff examples, Gaunts Ghosts books include several, then there's the Harakoni, Vostroyans, etc. I also don't see how this one was so bad, it was hardly a cost efficient doctrine and makes perfect sense for heavy infantry shock troop armies. It'll probably go the way of the do-do (along with Cyber-Enhancements, camo cloaks, etc), but that's fine, ST armies will likely be possible.

Grenadiers were there really to make Stormtrooper comapanies possible, something that had allowances in the black book list and 2nd ed before. When used to make ST company armies it was just fine, I run such an army (3 "grenadiers", 3 "elites" ST's) and it's hardly the most effective army out there.
However, when used just to throw in 2 5man ST squads and push in 3 LR tanks, hellhounds, and whatnot in 1000pt games it's not. From what we've heard, they will still likely be available in some manner as Troops.

Honestly I don't think too many people will be upset with the new codex except those who put lots of modeling and WYSIWYG work into more esoteric doctrine models. In addition to my current IG army, I plan on doing an all infantry traitor guard army and an armor heavy platoon centric cadian-ish army once the new codex comes out.

Grimtuff
26-02-2009, 17:00
One of which is 11 months stale and the other of which was closed for the very sort of thread necromancy you suggest?


You may want to actually check the dates of my post. (23rd april 2008) and the thread that I linked to's last activity.

You comment would actually be relevant if you'd bothered to do either... :rolleyes:

Ubermensch Commander
26-02-2009, 17:15
Agree with most of what Captain Micha said except for a few things:

Step Three: Fine, But i pray to the dark gods of the interwebz that we then have another fifteen thousand threads complaining about "OMG Gurdzmennz are so CHEEZ!" I

Step Seven: Maybe but I would be very leery of them doing this. Depends on what they include and how they do it. I could see Assasins perhaps but the problem is that most of the Inquistion things are not actually Imperial Guard and do not accompany Imperial Guard armies or units on the battlefield. Advise, certainly, and will be back at supreme command telling folks what to do before they slip off to do their clandestine sheenanigans.

Step Nine: hahahahaha....hahah..ha...*looks sad* yeah its true the sanctioned psykers are utter crap. Not disagreeing with this, I just want them to be "Not useless". I do not want an Imp Guard puny Psyker bending Zoanthropes over his knee and backhanding Tigurius or Mephiston and telling them to get back in the kitchen and make him a sammich!

Step Ten: Like it or not, that is an integral part of the fluff; the backwards and fearful of technology Imperium and their greatest keeps of ancient wisdom barely understand what they are doing. All of it wrapped in dogma and rote. The Guard ARE ******, for the most part, raised on a diet of faith and zealotry and the Mechanicus worship the Almighty Toaster. Sorry man.

Captain Micha
26-02-2009, 17:25
Agree with most of what Captain Micha said except for a few things:


Step Seven: Maybe but I would be very leery of them doing this. Depends on what they include and how they do it. I could see Assasins perhaps but the problem is that most of the Inquistion things are not actually Imperial Guard and do not accompany Imperial Guard armies or units on the battlefield. Advise, certainly, and will be back at supreme command telling folks what to do before they slip off to do their clandestine sheenanigans.

Step Nine: hahahahaha....hahah..ha...*looks sad* yeah its true the sanctioned psykers are utter crap. Not disagreeing with this, I just want them to be "Not useless". I do not want an Imp Guard puny Psyker bending Zoanthropes over his knee and backhanding Tigurius or Mephiston and telling them to get back in the kitchen and make him a sammich!

Step Ten: Like it or not, that is an integral part of the fluff; the backwards and fearful of technology Imperium and their greatest keeps of ancient wisdom barely understand what they are doing. All of it wrapped in dogma and rote. The Guard ARE ******, for the most part, raised on a diet of faith and zealotry and the Mechanicus worship the Almighty Toaster. Sorry man.

Oh I'm not saying Rape Tigurious, just be Libby Equivalent Psychic power wise.

And it's that portrayal of Guard that I hate. It's that portrayal that leads to the Guard Get Raped Fluff. The Guard should be shown as Competent and skilled. As they should be. It should never be implied that the only thing holding the Imperium together is the Blue Boys In Nancy Boy Armor.

Ubermensch Commander
26-02-2009, 18:20
@ Micha (Because the Quote button is blocked by my work computer. sorry folks)

I have to strongly disagree about Sacntioned Psykers being Librarian strength. Nay I say, Nay! And I am NOT Mr. Ed! They simply (as far as I can tell) just are not that strong. The stronger ones get snatched up by the SM and =I=.
So again, I want them to have useful powers, but I want NUMBERS not INDIVIDUAL strength. Example: Each platoon HQ may take a Sanctioned Psyker; make him about warlock strength but with different emphasis on his abilties.
Now, allow the Highest Level HQ (I dunno what that would be) in the Guard codex get a Psyker Prima(Primerii? stupid latin...I should know this) who is a bit beefier psyker wise.


See, but trained or not and competent or not, they are regular humans in a superhuman universe. They do win and should win. There is even a line in one of the Guard codexes somewhere to the extent they are the first and last defense. I feel that character would be lost if they just start just bombing everything to ***** with nary a worry. No, I like the Guard that overwhelms its enemy, choking them with their dead as they bombard them to paste with their heavy guns. But by the gods I want to see the Guardsmen dying in droves. It is consistent with fluff. It is what they do. and they do it proudly for their Emperor, because in this dystopian future the Imperium pumps out brainswashed zealots as fast as they do lasguns.

Nancy boys in blue? Well I have never heard of that chapter but the ULTRAMARINES are kinda getting good at picking up the Imp Guards slack. =)

Vaktathi
26-02-2009, 18:24
@ Micha (Because the Quote button is blocked by my work computer. sorry folks)

I have to strongly disagree about Sacntioned Psykers being Librarian strength. Nay I say, Nay! And I am NOT Mr. Ed! They simply (as far as I can tell) just are not that strong. The stronger ones get snatched up by the SM and =I=.
So again, I want them to have useful powers, but I want NUMBERS not INDIVIDUAL strength. Example: Each platoon HQ may take a Sanctioned Psyker; make him about warlock strength but with different emphasis on his abilties. IG psykers used to be some of the best in the game back in 2nd ed. Not all combat psykers are physically suited to becoming Space Marines, nor may their talents be suited to INQ work. If their talent is psychically detonating enemy energy sources and causing ground tremors, and they aren't physically suited to becoming SM's or they don't come from an SM recruit world, then they make perfect candidates for IG battlefield psykers, as their talents are too direct for the INQ.

Primaris psykers used to pretty much be this, and it looks like they will be brining them back. Also don't forget that SM psykers aren't necessarily any more powerful than other psykers, they are just much more physically enhanced and equipped.


No, I like the Guard that overwhelms its enemy, choking them with their dead as they bombard them to paste with their heavy guns. But by the gods I want to see the Guardsmen dying in droves. It is consistent with fluff. It is what they do. and they do it proudly for their Emperor, because in this dystopian future the Imperium pumps out brainswashed zealots as fast as they do lasguns.That is how *some* regiments work. That's how the DKoK works. The Tanith don't. The Harakoni don't. Stormtrooper companies certainly wouldn't.

The IG isn't all about human wave attacks. The IG is perfectly capable of destroying most enemy forces without losing 10 men for everyone one enemy, even against such enemies as the Eldar.

The IG operates in many different ways. Some operate much as the russians in WW2 where they simply bury the enemy in the IG's dead. Some operate more like the Germans where they formulate careful battle plans and have capable and independent commanders with solid equipment, veteran troops, and dynamic battle plans and are able to react, ambush, and take an enemy apart piecemeal.

Any IG codex should be able to reflect this, and the upcoming codex looks like it will.

Ubermensch Commander
26-02-2009, 18:46
@ Vaktahi
We wil have to agree to disagree. My suspension of disbelief is shattered by human rambo squad taking out squad of predators with no problem. or that the air dropping flashlight wielding troops well really have a devastating impact on the swarm of soulless chitin without taking casualties. I am not saying the IG do not use tactics. Far from it. But dammit, I like them to die in the process to keep it consistent with them being only human, in a galaxy populated with things beyond human capabilities.

oh and as for Tanith; that is EXACTLY what I do not want to see. "Take that Chaos Dreadnought! My FRAG GRENADE AND OVERCHARGE LAS PACK took care of YOU! And now we, a light infantry force, will rock the house despite not getting recruits due to our homeworld getting blown up." (I recall that was a big thing in the early novels, unless they started recruiting again in the later ones)
All the while Ibram Gaunt yells inspiration gobbeldy gook (Yes a commisar shouting inspiring words....in a stealth cloak wearing light infantry force. GENIUS.) and swings that lovely sword of his.
If you want Guard winning, read Cain novels. Those, I think, are actually somewhat fair representations of Guard being Guard, alowing for Cains ego-centric view on himself.

As for the Psykers, I seem to recall that best Psykers were almost always taken by the SM and Inq, even allowing for different skill sets being suited to different rolls. The story of the Doom Eagles recruitment pops to mind and I am fairly certain there is a quote blurb somewhere that says more or less the Space Marine Librarians, at least after their enhancements if not before, are superior to their Imp Guard brethren.

t-tauri
26-02-2009, 19:56
Thread is threadomanced from April 2008. Thread closed.