PDA

View Full Version : Best Primarch: Russ, Horus, El'Jonson or Sanguinius



Hostilius
25-04-2008, 17:11
Allright I stumbled upon a thread in Bolter and chainsword that were discussing about Anggrath the Unbound against Sanguinius. Somebody in the thread says Horus have stated Sanguinius was the best close combat primarch. Now, this contradicts the fluff I know that Horus was undefeated in combat practices save Leman Russ who is the best melee primarch.

So.....now to the topic: We are here to clear up the contradicting fluffs and WHO is the best primarch?

1) Horus - The favored son of the Emperor have scored the most victories and have led the Traitor Legions against the Emperor and nearly won. He is also the second best primarch in hand to hand combat after Leman Russ (this is the original fluff I read). But Emperor's knows how Russ would fare against him with his Daemon enhanced power.

2) Leman Russ - The Wolf King is the only Primarch who was never defeated in combat practices (except the incident where he was sucker punched by Lion). He has the third highest score of victories after Horus and Lion. Also, he is the only Primarch who can boast that he defeated the Emperor on TWO out of THREE challenges. So, the score stands: Leman Russ - 2 v Emperor - 1

3) Lion El'Jonson - The Lion of Caliban scored the second highest tally of victories in the Great Crusade. He only came close in defeating Horus in close combat but he proves that he can able to match and defeat the best (reportedly) combat Primarch (Leman Russ) when he is sufficiently angered.

4) Sanguinuis - The Angel of Baal is stated to be the best Primarch in close combat and have defeated a dozen of Bloodthirstier in Terra. Horus have said to compliment him as the best combat Primarch and actually fear to face him in combat (in a fluff which I recently heard). Sanguinuis was only defeated by Horus only because he is terribly worn out by the Battle of Terra.

Mozzamanx
25-04-2008, 17:15
None of 'em, Konrad Kurze ftw!

Out of them though, I'd say Leman Russ.

Icarus
25-04-2008, 17:31
These sort of questions are always difficult to answer, partly because these things are down to interpretation and fluff is often written from a particular viewpoint. However, if we're talking pre-Chaos Horus, then I would vote for Sanguinius was the most proficient in close combat. His feats are pretty much legendary, including snapping Bloodthirtsers over his back and generally being extremely cool with a sword. Not to mention that a key part of his geneseed seems to be the ability to trigger an incredible bloodlust that turns you into an unstoppable warrior!

However all of the others have a lot to their name, Russ in particular. However I would say Russ is more of a savage, a primal monster in combat, wheras Sanguinius is more of a master of combat, a paragon of swordsmanship.

biggreengribbly
25-04-2008, 17:39
Now I remember Horus mentioning that Sanguinius would have been the best choice, barring himself for the throne of Warmaster, because IIRC while each of the Primarch's embodied one of the Emperor's traits, Sanguinius had all of them. But I never remember him being complemented specifically on his combat skills man-to-man...

Goq Gar
25-04-2008, 17:48
He leads black crusades yo!

Minister
25-04-2008, 17:57
Roboute Guilliman, obviously. Lead the largest legion, created the modern Imperial military after the Crusade and the Heresy left it in a shambles, became one of the first High Lords and the only man to be Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Hostilius
25-04-2008, 17:59
Roboute Guilliman, obviously. Lead the largest legion, created the modern Imperial military after the Crusade and the Heresy left it in a shambles, became one of the first High Lords and the only man to be Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Dude, we are not talking about best primarch in terms of overall merits but rather combat prowess. Too many contradictory fluffs, so trying to clear this one.

Tonberry
25-04-2008, 18:01
In best xxxx threads, everybody looses...

Hostilius
25-04-2008, 18:13
In best xxxx threads, everybody looses...

We'll try to keep things rational and fanboism in minimal here ;)

Like I say, the aim is to clear up some contradictory fluff.

Lastie
25-04-2008, 18:19
Oh for the love of ... it's Chuck Norris! Chuck Norris always wins!

On a serious note; my money's on Russ. He fights dirty.

Suicide Messiah
25-04-2008, 18:43
I vote Russ for best in combat. That always seemed to be his thing with Sanguinius being just an all round fantasic guy. Plus after losing the second contest to Russ (eating or drinking cant remember which) The Big E punched him full on in the face wearing a power fist. Russ having just finished drinking or eating was caught totally unaware and still recovered in a relativly short amount of time (i think it was like two days or somthing).

Son of Sanguinius
25-04-2008, 18:46
Come on guys, you all know the real answer. See below.

On a more serious note, the background (as is usual) contradicts itself all the time. One the one hand, Horus says Sanguinius would have been the best warmaster. But Horus also, because of pride believes himself to be the best choice. They say that Leman Russ never lost to anyone in single combat, but he never fought Horus or Sanguinius, and the fight with Lion was a standstill. Sanguinius supposedly cracked the back of the biggest bloodthirster around, but in some of the description of the fight between Horus and Sanguinius, it says Sanguinius couldn't have beaten Horus even if the traitor wasn't possessed by the Gods.

Personally I think it is Sanguinius, as I believe he has a bit of perfection devotion, like Fulgrim (who should also be in this poll), making him a great swordsman, as well as Horus' natural superiority.

IMO, GW set Sanguinius and Horus as opposites in the Heresy itself, as poster boys for each side.

Gorthor21
25-04-2008, 19:07
im a little surprised you didnt put Angron in there, considering his legion was the most vicious in close combat.

but my money also goes on Sanguinius out of your selection based solely on the fact that he are teh beast. What primarch can boast about single handedly defending the eternity gate so that the other defenders of the palace could withdraw safely and repostion

Michael M.
25-04-2008, 19:20
I vote Russ for best in combat. That always seemed to be his thing with Sanguinius being just an all round fantasic guy. Plus after losing the second contest to Russ (eating or drinking cant remember which) The Big E punched him full on in the face wearing a power fist. Russ having just finished drinking or eating was caught totally unaware and still recovered in a relativly short amount of time (i think it was like two days or somthing).

Russ was not "unaware". After he lost the first two contests the Emperor insulted Russ. Both stepped on the big table for the fight.
And Russ recovered after an hour. He was sure that his headache was the consequence of the great amount of fenrisian ale and not of the power fist in his face.

I vote for Russ. For Russ! For the Wolftime!

Wraith
25-04-2008, 20:02
I think we all know Sanguinius is the winner, good grief what that guy is depicted as achieving during the battle of Terra and then being prepared to go on to do... The guy's a legend I wish there was a Blood Angel HH book (although Sanguinius has appeard in them).

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-04-2008, 21:13
Sanguinius, but I don't have any new fluff to support it. Simply look to the posts above.

Epicenter
25-04-2008, 21:42
It honestly depends on if you're talking about Horus before he gives himself to the Dark Gods or not. Once he's suffused with the power of Chaos, he's the best melee Primarch.

Before that, it's much harder to say. Probably Russ, I'd say. A dude raised by wolves and stuff has no problem biting your ear or something when he's in close - especially after he was blindsided by the Emperor's powerfist and learned the value of holding two weapons. Sanguinus would spend too much time trying to be honorable and "good" with his sword (if Sanguinus fought dirty, he'd probably be best - flying gives him a good advantage).

ThousandPlateaus
25-04-2008, 21:46
Hmmm...

Horus - Arch traitor, ideas above his station;
Leman Russ - Part dog;
Lion El'Jonson - A bitter gay;
Sanguinius - blood-drinking vampire mutant deviant;

My money's on the Guard! ;)

Lord Malorne
25-04-2008, 21:51
:eek: No Rogal Dorn? well if thats the case i would have to say Horus as he killed Sanguinius (deal with it;)) manipulated Russ and the Lion out of the way...

Though could do nothing about Rogal Dorn, he is lucky the Emperor got there first otherwise Dorn would have laid the smackdown on his ass ;).

Koryphaus
25-04-2008, 22:49
Why these 4 primarchs in particular? Are you talking about who is the best primarch overall, or just of the 4 above? And your comparisons arent consistant - what about Sanguinius' tally of victories?

Draconian77
25-04-2008, 22:55
I voted Sanguinius.

Reasons: Look above this post.

Supremearchmarshal
25-04-2008, 23:07
After his pact with Chaos, it was certainly Horus. Before that it's impossible to say really - the vast majority of the "Primarch X is best in close combat" views are purely subjective.

Suicide Messiah
25-04-2008, 23:10
Russ was not "unaware". After he lost the first two contests the Emperor insulted Russ. Both stepped on the big table for the fight.
And Russ recovered after an hour. He was sure that his headache was the consequence of the great amount of fenrisian ale and not of the power fist in his face.

Cheers for clearing that up. Its been awhile since i read that bit of background.

C'mon people. Russ got punched in the face by a ticked off Emperor and then blamed it on the booze. Awesome.

I think its a bit boring having Sangy as the best in combat. No doubt he embodied the Emperor will better than any of the others, was pure of thought and deed etc but if your talking about a one on one fight then Russ is your man. he was the strongest of the primarchs. Bloodthrister? Hell, hed probably break the back of a GUO over his knee.

biggreengribbly
25-04-2008, 23:26
I think we all know Sanguinius is the winner, good grief what that guy is depicted as achieving during the battle of Terra and then being prepared to go on to do... The guy's a legend I wish there was a Blood Angel HH book (although Sanguinius has appeard in them).

Considering the angst-ridden pretty-boy they made him out to be in False Gods (IIRC) I'm rather terrified of what they'll come up with for him once the Blood Angels get their starring role. I mean yes, I guess when it comes down to it, he is definitely tied with Fulgrim for the 'pretty boy' award, and his Legion is famous for having Angst ingrained in their Geneseed after his death, but Painting Tears on your face? What the crap.

It seems the sole purpose of the HH novels is to make the Obscure Primarch's seem Cool. I mean prior to reading the first 4, I thought Sanguinius and Dorn were the dudes, and didn't much care for the rest. Now my 'mental image' of the two has been Smashed by what's presented in the novels, and Ferrus Manus, and to a lesser extent Corax and Vulkan have stepped up for the 'cool award'.

At least they didn't murder the Flight of the Eisenstein though, I'd have started bombarding GWHQ's parking lot with flaming, barbed-wire wrapped Babies if they'd messed that up...

Amornar
26-04-2008, 00:34
While Sanguinus might have been an amazing swordsmen and fighter I see him more as an dueler, elegantly fighting his way through his enemies one at a time. But I would have to give it up for Russ who just takes the cake with pure strength, power and ferocity that would make him a great fighter against 1 guy or 100 guys.

Nals
26-04-2008, 01:06
i would have to go with Lion el' johnson, dark angels are the best nuff said

Hostilius
26-04-2008, 01:31
Why these 4 primarchs in particular? Are you talking about who is the best primarch overall, or just of the 4 above? And your comparisons arent consistant - what about Sanguinius' tally of victories?

Well, these 4 Primarchs are considered the best of the primarchs.

I never read any fluff regarding Sanguinius's tally of victories during the Crusade. Please post the fluff if you know of it :)

Now somebody said I should put in Angron or Konrad Cruze but I never hear any fluff regarding them as the best melee Primarch. Sure, Cruze beat the crap out of Dorn in a fit of rage but that's about it.

Koryphaus
26-04-2008, 02:27
Well, these 4 Primarchs are considered the best of the primarchs.

I never read any fluff regarding Sanguinius's tally of victories during the Crusade. Please post the fluff if you know of it :)

Now somebody said I should put in Angron or Konrad Cruze but I never hear any fluff regarding them as the best melee Primarch. Sure, Cruze beat the crap out of Dorn in a fit of rage but that's about it.

But why are these 4 considered the best?

I dont want this thread to disolve into fanboy flaming, but I'm disappointed not seeing the other primarchs up there.

Guilliman, who organised the amred forces of the imperium so well they havent changed their methods in 10000 years. Dorn, whose legion was personally praised by Horus (IIRC, Horus said that a way between the Fist's and the Luna Wolves would last forever; the greatest legion in attack, pitted against the greatest legion in defense.). What about Mortarion, whose massed infantry attacks were lethally effective? Lorgar, who worshipped his father and tried to convert every one of his defeated enemies. Where is Corax, the master of guerrilla fighting? Alpharius, who could manipulate his enemies into defeating themselves?

Joulas
26-04-2008, 02:51
I voted for Sanguinuis.

I think i read/heard somewhere, maybe even on Warseer, that he was "perfect in defence and offence" in single combat. He also had some.. fun... in the skies of Terra under the Siege of Terra. Didn't he also hold an gate (Ultima Gate?) pretty much single handedly, buying the loyalist time too retreat and regroup when Horus' forces finnaly overran the walls in the Imperial Palace? Or is this only my memory being fuzzy?

Chem-Dog
26-04-2008, 02:57
Roboute Guilliman, obviously. Lead the largest legion, created the modern Imperial military after the Crusade and the Heresy left it in a shambles, became one of the first High Lords and the only man to be Lord Commander of the Imperium.

But he was an ACCOUNTANT!


Oh for the love of ... it's Chuck Norris! Chuck Norris always wins!
FXXking Chuck Norris! [/White Goodman]


:eek: No Rogal Dorn? well if thats the case i would have to say Horus as he killed Sanguinius (deal with it;)) manipulated Russ and the Lion out of the way...
I was Dissapointed too ;)
Manipulated out of the way=Was too scared to face.
Horus doesn't win, reading Bill King's account Horus is unaware of what he's done until JUST before the Emperor Char-grill's him, Unaware of his actions means disqualification by way of partial possession.
Russ doesn't win, He's just a mean drunk with a big axe. Ever heard somebody say how they get violent on a certain type of alcohol (I hear it said most about whiskey)? That's Just Russ.
Johnson doesn't win, he's a brilliant tactician, I believe his abilities in combat are references are commenting on that rather than a particular personal combat skill.
Sanguinius DOES win. He's an angel, he has wings, so there.
Seriously, it took Horus an absolute AGE to defeat Sanguinius even in his super duper jacked up hyper chaos mode, the same one that almost manages to kill the Emperor mind.....


Considering the angst-ridden pretty-boy they made him out to be in False Gods (IIRC) I'm rather terrified of what they'll come up with for him once the Blood Angels get their starring role. I mean yes, I guess when it comes down to it, he is definitely tied with Fulgrim for the 'pretty boy' award, and his Legion is famous for having Angst ingrained in their Geneseed after his death, but Painting Tears on your face? What the crap.

To show solidarity with his battle brothers? A ceremonial mark of mourning? just an idea.


At least they didn't murder the Flight of the Eisenstein though, I'd have started bombarding GWHQ's parking lot with flaming, barbed-wire wrapped Babies if they'd messed that up...

:eyebrows:
Get
Help
Now

Hostilius
26-04-2008, 03:30
But why are these 4 considered the best?

Like I said previously, this is about close combat nothing else. And before anyone talk about Angron please read my previous posts.

As for Guilliman I never read anything about him being the best melee. And Dorn got his butt kicked by Konrad.

Hellebore
26-04-2008, 03:44
Russ doesn't win, He's just a mean drunk with a big axe. Ever heard somebody say how they get violent on a certain type of alcohol (I hear it said most about whiskey)? That's Just Russ.


Except he had the 3rd biggest victory tally behind Horus and the Lion.

A drunk barbarian with an axe that was also a tactical genius to the point where only two other primarchs bested his victories.

And neither of them were Sanguinius.

Hellebore

Gorthor21
26-04-2008, 04:32
Now somebody said I should put in Angron or Konrad Cruze but I never hear any fluff regarding them as the best melee Primarch. Sure, Cruze beat the crap out of Dorn in a fit of rage but that's about it.

Well we all know Angron was was the bloodthirsty aspect, completely devoid of mercy and utterly relentless. I'm not sure if there actually is a tally of his victories as compared to the others, but hes probably going to have a low count considering his methods of conquest. Heck the Big E wanted to reprimand him for his actions and how he altered his legion to be psycho killers. There's a description of him that i quite liked in one of thebooks of the Loken story arch.

Im not quite a fanboy for Angron, but it should be noted that maybe all the primarchs have similar CC abilities considering they were all created the same way.

R Man
26-04-2008, 04:58
I'd say it depends on too many factors to get a definate answer. It also depends on who they are fighting. For example Angron would probably be able to beat Russ through sheer fury, but Sanguinus would easily be able to trick him. Russ however I'd expect would be too cunning to fall for tricks and probably beat Angle Boy.

Horus would lack the sheer physical presence of some of his peers, but he's a potent psyker (Do psyker abilities count?) and probably a more flexible fighter than his peers.

dblaz3r
26-04-2008, 05:11
Hmmm...
Lion El'Jonson - A bitter gay;


:wtf: Oh that's right the poet was so that must mean the primarch is as well.


Painting Tears on your face? What the crap.


Gang members have a tear drop tattooed to represent having killed someone, I'm sure there could be some sort of meaning to it here as well.


i would have to go with Lion el' johnson, dark angels are the best nuff said

I'm with you on this one brother :D
I mean look at his battle record and he raised himself in the hell infested jungles of caliban.

RexTalon
26-04-2008, 06:55
Hmmm...

Horus - Arch traitor, ideas above his station;
Leman Russ - Part dog;
Lion El'Jonson - A bitter gay;
Sanguinius - blood-drinking vampire mutant deviant;

My money's on the Guard! ;)

Except for the homophobe comment about the Lion, I think this guy wins teh prize.

Hicks
26-04-2008, 06:58
Sanguinius is IMO the greatest primarch ever. The only thing he couldn't kill in combat was a daemonicaly enhenced Horrus that only the Emperor managed to kill.

RexTalon
26-04-2008, 07:00
I voted for Sanguinuis.

I think i read/heard somewhere, maybe even on Warseer, that he was "perfect in defence and offence" in single combat.

:eyebrows: So... one of your reasons for voting for Sanguinius was because you "heard on the internet he was the best"?... I think Sanguinius should be taken off the list.

Drakon
26-04-2008, 07:07
leman russ all the way horus is a traitor, El'Jonson was on the border of being a traitor :) and sanuinius didnt make it. Russ is tough and loyal and has the best chapter under him.

TheOverlord
26-04-2008, 07:11
I voted for Horus.

And I think I won't bother putting any real reason why I voted for him either. Very much like 70% of the people here :D

Aaanyway, I would probably put Angron or Konrad Curze in there, but whatever.

ThousandPlateaus
26-04-2008, 08:38
Except for the homophobe comment about the Lion, I think this guy wins teh prize.

Oh, I wasn't being homophobic, just churlish.


:wtf: Oh that's right the poet was so that must mean the primarch is as well.
.

Oh come on - this has been GW's best in-joke for years. And a brilliantly funny one at that. You don't even have to read between the lines with the Dark Angels with their one 'terrible secret' which no one must know of. It's hilarious!

RexTalon
26-04-2008, 08:52
Even if he were gay, why would that be funny?

EDIT: 666th post!

ThousandPlateaus
26-04-2008, 09:06
Even if he were gay, why would that be funny?

EDIT: 666th post!

Simply because it flies in the face of common Wargaming mythologies which are always intrinsically masculinist in their make-up: heroes have to fit certain archetypes to satisfy the players of these games, or readers of the fantasy literature which makes up much of the background of these games (typically adolescent boys), as these characters and their adventures are designed to be lived through vicariously.

The subversion of that by GW many moons ago with the creation of the Dark Angels was a moment of genius on behalf of the design team at the time.

That's all.

Edit - Anyway, sorry. I don't want to derail this thread.

Gobbo Trouble
26-04-2008, 10:21
just one about russ getting punched by the emperor and recovering in a matter of days, it says in the 'wolfs honour' novel that...


spolier

russ hit the emperor while he was trying to break up a brawl he was having with the lion i think, and when the emperor hit russ back he was unconscious for a month

so...yeah.

Koryphaus
26-04-2008, 10:25
Simply because it flies in the face of common Wargaming mythologies which are always intrinsically masculinist in their make-up: heroes have to fit certain archetypes to satisfy the players of these games, or readers of the fantasy literature which makes up much of the background of these games (typically adolescent boys), as these characters and their adventures are designed to be lived through vicariously.

The subversion of that by GW many moons ago with the creation of the Dark Angels was a moment of genius on behalf of the design team at the time.

That's all.

Edit - Anyway, sorry. I don't want to derail this thread.

So the fact that they have a terrible secret (hiding their sexual orientation) is funny? Then perhaps you could post it in the 40K humour thread?

Maybe its not genius, maybe it just that society barely accepts homosexuals today, and certainly didn't when the DA were 1st invented...?

Suicide Messiah
26-04-2008, 10:40
just one about russ getting punched by the emperor and recovering in a matter of days, it says in the 'wolfs honour' novel that...

Wolfs honour would be wrong then.

ThousandPlateaus
26-04-2008, 10:53
So the fact that they have a terrible secret (hiding their sexual orientation) is funny? Then perhaps you could post it in the 40K humour thread?

Maybe its not genius, maybe it just that society barely accepts homosexuals today, and certainly didn't when the DA were 1st invented...?

I think you're confusing what I'm saying, so I'll try and clarify:

I don't think homophobia itself is amusing, no; indeed, far from it. What I do find amusing is the sly subversion of heterosexist norms in fantasy mythologies by GW in their creation of the Dark Angels and their basis on Lionel Johnson and his work.

I'm a GW fanboy, so I'm hoping and, perhaps naively, assuming that there was no homophobic intent at work during their creation. Perhaps there was. We'll never know. I think it was simply just a minor in-joke by the Games developers at the time.

I didn't post my post in the humour thread as I simply made a series of pithy remarks about the four Primarchs listed - obviously I've had to justify those remarks, and I hope I've now clarified them.

Koryphaus
26-04-2008, 13:01
Ok, gotcha

Rockerfella
26-04-2008, 13:04
I like all the Primarchs listed, for sure. But, for me... its got to be the Lion. Why? I think (despite being called Lionel...i mean..... c'mon....) he has the coolest name.

Simple as that for me. I don't do 'deep thought' i'm afraid. Cool name.

Yeah.

Tiller5
26-04-2008, 15:06
Sanguinius for sure, if you ask me. Why? He has huge frikkin wings! Or, rather he 'had' huge frikkin' wings, now every raving DC loon thinks he has too....

Seriously though, Sanguinius for sure, big red dude with awesome sword and can break the backs of the most fearsome Greater Daemon known to Mankind? Major Win!

RexTalon
26-04-2008, 17:20
Seriously though, Sanguinius for sure, big red dude with awesome sword and can break the backs of the most fearsome Greater Daemon known to Mankind? Major Win!
So can a few dozen Imperial Guardsmen. I don't fear those things at all.

I really don't like Sang. because of his obvious "Emo" appeal. His much too cliché. I voted for the Lion because I think he has a feral warrior spirit that he keeps in check behind a masterfully strategic mind. Where Russ is just Feral, Horus is just strategic, The Lion is the best of both.

Nazguire
26-04-2008, 17:37
So can a few dozen Imperial Guardsmen. I don't fear those things at all.

I really don't like Sang. because of his obvious "Emo" appeal. His much too cliché. I voted for the Lion because I think he has a feral warrior spirit that he keeps in check behind a masterfully strategic mind. Where Russ is just Feral, Horus is just strategic, The Lion is the best of both.

Russ wasn't just 'feral'. He was a strategic and tactical genius just like Hellebore said. You don't get the third highest tally of victories by blundering into battle.

TheOverlord
26-04-2008, 18:02
Russ wasn't just 'feral'. He was a strategic and tactical genius just like Hellebore said. You don't get the third highest tally of victories by blundering into battle.

Who never could match the Lion or Horus in terms of victories no matter how hard he pushed his legion to match their tally :D Of course, some claim Horus to have cheated and used many legions and guardsmen regiments for victory. All I hear is the Waaambulance :P Tactical genius he may be, but honestly, every damn primarch was a tactical genius, they just did it on different timescales. Some were far too busy with doing other things, like Perturabo who had slow progress because he was forced into doing laborious sieges against heavily fortified worlds in which he then had to refortify and move on. Guilleman would've probably beaten them all (accept maybe Horus... guy's been doing it longer, and Alpharious if he had been discovered sooner) if he wasn't so busy restructuring their society again. Lorgar would've done quite well if he wasn't... persecuting the heathens, so to speak. So I wouldn't call Russ a tactical genius compared to his other siblings. He was just vicious enough that he'd do whatever it takes to win, and move on irregardless of the cost of victory. Remember Horus after he won he'd have to re institute new planetary governors and occasionally build monuments to the Emperor and whatnot, and STILL outnumber the Lion and Russ in terms of victories :P

RexTalon
26-04-2008, 19:46
Russ wasn't just 'feral'. He was a strategic and tactical genius just like Hellebore said. You don't get the third highest tally of victories by blundering into battle.

Yea... exactly... Third...

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-04-2008, 20:21
Boy, there are a lot of folks who didn't read the OP. Seriously. Close combat. Not tactical victories, not personality, not coolest name, not most awesome. Close. Combat.


But why are these 4 considered the best?

See above.


i would have to go with Lion el' johnson, dark angels are the best nuff said

See above as well.


well if thats the case i would have to say Horus as he killed Sanguinius (deal with it;))

Because contrary to all established fluff, it was just a one-on-one fight between Horus and Sanguinius, and Horus did not, in fact, have the power of the four Dark Gods behind him...


:eyebrows: So... one of your reasons for voting for Sanguinius was because you "heard on the internet he was the best"?... I think Sanguinius should be taken off the list.

Admittedly his reasoning was unsound, but that's no reason to take Sanguinius off a list of Primarchs renowned even amongst his brothers for his ability in close combat.


Simple as that for me. I don't do 'deep thought' i'm afraid. Cool name.

I'd tell you to see the first paragraph of this post, but you're too cool. :p

Koryphaus
26-04-2008, 23:17
Boy, there are a lot of folks who didn't read the OP. Seriously. Close combat. Not tactical victories, not personality, not coolest name, not most awesome. Close. Combat.

So the fact that the OP talks about the Lion's victory tally, and doesn't actually mention the Lion's personal combat prowess doesn't mean anything? I just wasn't certain why these 4 primarch in particular when they are being compared inconsistently (ie, sanguinius on combat prowess alone, the Lion on victory tally, russ and horus on both).

DivineVisitor
26-04-2008, 23:43
Yea... exactly... Third...

Thats third with what was supposed to be one of the smallest of the Legions and inducting everyone from a single planet. Considering that, third is an amazing achievement as far as im concerned.

Anyway back to the question at hand. Who was superior in Close Combat.
For me it would be a toss between Horus and Russ, but my vote goes Russ's way

On the whole Wolf's honour thing and the Emperor knocking him out for a month... lets face it, if you **** off the Emperor and he wants to knock you out for a month, there's not much any Primarch would be able to do about it when there not fighting back. If he wants you KO'd for a month, he'll KO you for a month.

Horus is said to have only been defeated in single combat by Russ, which i would also assume to mean Horus had notched up victories against other Primarchs, The Lion for one and maybe even most of or all the rest except Russ.

Sanguinius broke a Bloodthirsters back over his Knee, Russ broke Magnus's back over his Knee. A far greater accomplishment in my opinion.

Russ like Beer.

End.

P.s. Bruce Campbell > Chuck Norris. The internet says so!
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Campbell

Thrax
27-04-2008, 01:35
A) Horus ~ corrupted by Chaos, perhaps possessed thus disqualified
B) Sanguinius ~ mutant man with wings and possibly fangs, thus disqualified
C) Russ ~ mutant with lycanthropic taint, thus disqualified
D) el' Johnson ~ only 100% man listed, victor by default

Truly I'd have to say the real choice is Horus given such a limited selection of primarchs (Angron still comes to mind) because in a true fight to the death at the height of his powers he beat down the emperor and only lost due to his last second hesitation (remorse?). The emperor wasn't playfully cuffing Russ, he was fighting to the death for all of Mankind and would have lost if not for a desperate, monumental psychic blast. The fluff says he dropped the shields to his battlebarge for an instant allowing the emperor to come aboard, but maybe Horus wanted such an event so he could spank him in person. Like Sanguinius.

So it took the god-emperor everything he had to kill Horus, and in the process he became less than a comatose quadriplegic. Horus for the win!

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-04-2008, 02:45
So the fact that the OP talks about the Lion's victory tally, and doesn't actually mention the Lion's personal combat prowess doesn't mean anything? I just wasn't certain why these 4 primarch in particular when they are being compared inconsistently (ie, sanguinius on combat prowess alone, the Lion on victory tally, russ and horus on both).

It's not my fault the OP wasn't clear. And I for one am not comparing them inconsistently.

Dragonlv8
27-04-2008, 02:50
if it was out of all the Primarchs I would say Dorn but seeing as im planning pre-heresy luna wolves Il go with Horus.

Koryphaus
27-04-2008, 03:27
It's not my fault the OP wasn't clear. And I for one am not comparing them inconsistently.

And I wasn't accusing you of it, I meant that the OP wasnt clear or consistant.

Hostilius
27-04-2008, 03:38
And I wasn't accusing you of it, I meant that the OP wasnt clear or consistant.

Aye, perhaps I am to be faulted for this misunderstanding. But yea, I shoulda not talk about Lion's victory tallies. But again, the best close combat primarchs I notice seems to have the most victory tallies. I know Dark Angels doctrine is to stand back and fire but the Lion is said to come close in defeating Horus.

Mad King George
27-04-2008, 03:49
Russ, because he can kick ass and live

Baaltharus
27-04-2008, 13:37
I vote Russ for best in combat. That always seemed to be his thing with Sanguinius being just an all round fantasic guy. Plus after losing the second contest to Russ (eating or drinking cant remember which) The Big E punched him full on in the face wearing a power fist. Russ having just finished drinking or eating was caught totally unaware and still recovered in a relativly short amount of time (i think it was like two days or somthing).

Thats not what happens, they have a duel and the Emperor smashes Russ in the face and knocks him out. Russ gets up a while later and thinks its hilarious and that the Emperors a great guy because he managed to break most of his teeth.

But going back to the point of the post Sanguiniuis is numero uno. I mean in his final hours he squshes unnumbered daemons, traitors, cultists and mutants, snaps numerous Greater Daemons, destroys the Lord of Blood Thirsters, stabs Horus in the heart and finally only goes down to a cheap (uber) psychic assault. Thats what you call hardcore.

Supremearchmarshal
27-04-2008, 16:44
stabs Horus in the heart and finally only goes down to a cheap (uber) psychic assault. Thats what you call hardcore.

This bit isn't set in stone. Another account says that Horus killed Sanguinius with his bare hands.

Rockerfella
27-04-2008, 17:02
not coolest name What, really? Darn it.... and there I was... thinking the OP's intent was simply irrelevent. *bummer*

Does this mean in future, i'm going to have to stay on topic, and only make responses if they're relevent? Cos.. i dunoo... i mean... thats just plain silly. :p



I'd tell you to see the first paragraph of this post, but you're too cool. :p And you'd be right. On both accounts! Hahahah! ;)

Drachenfell
27-04-2008, 17:53
I always thought that the new bakground of Horus strangling Sanguinius was a bit lame. In the old fluff Horus wore twin lightning claws and once Sanguinius had stabbed him (In the throat in old fluff) Horus then cut sanguinius with the claws in an X on his chest. Thereby giving rise to the symbolic X cross on death company armour which symbolised the final wound inflicted.

Now it's a bit convoluted. :<

Best overall close combat? Well Sanguinius I'd suggest had more of a mastery of combat though Russ was just savage. I can imagine sanguinius smashing dreadnaughts with a spear and Russ opening them with his teeth or something.

Baaltharus
27-04-2008, 18:34
This bit isn't set in stone. Another account says that Horus killed Sanguinius with his bare hands.

I can't really give this account any credit as strangling a Primarch doesn't seem like a credable way of killing them. You'd surely be there for hours while they died of lack of oxygen (if they even need oxygen). Neither can I see Horus stripping off his weapons and breaking out the kung-fu moves.

Hostilius
27-04-2008, 19:49
I can't really give this account any credit as strangling a Primarch doesn't seem like a credable way of killing them. You'd surely be there for hours while they died of lack of oxygen (if they even need oxygen). Neither can I see Horus stripping off his weapons and breaking out the kung-fu moves.

There are three version of how Sanguinuis was killed. One was he was "strangled with ease" by Horus. Two, he deal Horus with a storm of blades and wounding him (Emperor would later exploit this wound), Horus finally caught him with his Talon of Horus and tore him apart. Three, he was killed with warp attack by Horus which was extremely painful and his torment was imprinted in the gene-seed.

I just wish GW would finalize their damn fluff. They keep changing it at every damn edition.

Lord Malorne
27-04-2008, 20:03
I just wish GW would finalize their damn fluff. They keep changing it at every damn edition.

:eek:...your talking madness! such a thing is not possible!...

I would still have to say Horus as he did whack the Emperor...:mad: curse him! oh well i will have to console myself with the ability to kick Abaddons ass!

Baaltharus
27-04-2008, 20:33
There are three version of how Sanguinuis was killed. One was he was "strangled with ease" by Horus. Two, he deal Horus with a storm of blades and wounding him (Emperor would later exploit this wound), Horus finally caught him with his Talon of Horus and tore him apart. Three, he was killed with warp attack by Horus which was extremely painful and his torment was imprinted in the gene-seed.

I just wish GW would finalize their damn fluff. They keep changing it at every damn edition.

Theres nothing to say Sanguinuis doesn't wound Horus in the third version of the story. They certainly clash blades for a while in the 'third' version. I think the HH version of the story will be something like...they fight, Horus can't land a blow on Sanguinuis, Sanguinuis can't do alot to hurt Horus. Sanguinuis gathers up the last of his strength and launches himself against Horus and driving heartsbane into his chest where it shatters/snaps (for epic effect). Horus enraged beyond measure unleashes mega psychic doom and thus the Lord Angel passes from this world.

Lord Malorne
27-04-2008, 20:37
Theres nothing to say Sanguinuis doesn't wound Horus in the third version of the story. They certainly clash blades for a while in the 'third' version. I think the HH version of the story will be something like...they fight, Horus can't land a blow on Sanguinuis, Sanguinuis can't do alot to hurt Horus. Sanguinuis gathers up the last of his strength and launches himself against Horus and driving heartsbane into his chest where it shatters/snaps (for epic effect). Horus enraged beyond measure unleashes mega psychic doom and thus the Lord Angel passes from this world.

Yeah, along with the 'Horus regretted his actions...for a moment' malarkey the HH seems to be filled with now.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-04-2008, 02:01
Darn it.... and there I was... thinking the OP's intent was simply irrelevent. *bummer*

Well... this is Warseer, I guess. ;)

Hellebore
28-04-2008, 02:14
The Lion was challenged by the pleb Luther, not even a real space marine. The fact it took so long for him to overcome Luther says more about the Lion than it does about Luther.

Hellebore

Baaltharus
28-04-2008, 05:16
The HH series will no doubt see Liono pummel Luther then back off only to take a psychic sucker punch. In my opinion it was always a bit inconcievable that some nobody like Luther could take on a Primarch (and practically win).

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-04-2008, 06:18
The Lion was challenged by the pleb Luther, not even a real space marine. The fact it took so long for him to overcome Luther says more about the Lion than it does about Luther.

Hellebore

Doesn't that story have a few parallels to the fight between the Emperor and Horus?

Namely that one is bloated with Chaotic power directly from the Four Gods and thus a lot harder to take on than before said empowerment?

I'm not saying the Lion was the greatest or anything, I'm just putting it in perspective.

Hellebore
28-04-2008, 06:22
No you're right he was empowered by chaos. Of course, he was an augmented human empowered by chaos, not even a marine let alone a primarch so he was probably only elevated to ~ primarch status by the power.

Hellebore

Luckywallace
28-04-2008, 06:27
Gotta love contradicting fluff, Ultramarine sources constantly cite Roboute Guilliman as having the largest tally of victories.

Anyway, on the point I would suggest considering Fulgrim. He did best an Avatar by punching through its head...
In addition, the Emperors Children's quest for perfection would surely make him the "perfect" warrior, perhaps from a technical perspective (while Russ, certainly a bad ass, strikes me as more of a brawler).

Lordsaradain
28-04-2008, 06:38
Angron is obviously the best Primarch in a combat. You should know by now. :rolleyes:

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 08:12
Gotta love contradicting fluff, Ultramarine sources constantly cite Roboute Guilliman as having the largest tally of victories.

Anyway, on the point I would suggest considering Fulgrim. He did best an Avatar by punching through its head...
In addition, the Emperors Children's quest for perfection would surely make him the "perfect" warrior, perhaps from a technical perspective (while Russ, certainly a bad ass, strikes me as more of a brawler).

Why does Leman Russ strike everyone as being a brawler? He strikes me as a wolf - able to fight incredibly savagely when he needed to, but always with cunning and intelligence, not bloodthirsty carnage. Leave that to Angron and Night Haunter.

Fulgrim did behead Ferrus Manus. Some sources cite Vulkan as well, but I'm skeptical about that one.

On the Guilliman front, he also had by far the largest of the Legions, and as for his personal prowess, the Alpha Legion IA states (regardless of whatever is written in Legion) that Guilliman killed Alpharius in single combat.

Lordsaradain
28-04-2008, 08:17
On the Guilliman front, he also had by far the largest of the Legions, and as for his personal prowess, the Alpha Legion IA states (regardless of whatever is written in Legion) that Guilliman killed Alpharius in single combat.

Or did he...?

That's what the Alpha Legion would have you believe.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 08:19
In the Alpha Legion IA it is from the perspective of the Ultramarines. And I'd expect that Guilliman would've known his own brother.

destroyerlord
28-04-2008, 08:20
Oh whoops..I thought it was an opinion poll and voted sanguinius because who doesn't love a holy angel of bloodletting?
But on topic I'm pretty sure he has nothing on the others in combat...I thought his duel with Horus was a sacrifice to buy the Emperor more time. Its more romantic that way, as he fights Horus to his death for his lord and father.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 08:33
It is an opinion poll, they just head this way because everyone wants their opinion out there. It makes for quite interesting reading IMO.

Yeah, thats the way I take the fight between Sanguinius and Horus, I think that there is a great story in maybe 2nd ed rulebook? Actually a really good version of the battle and such.

I kinda see it as he knew he had no chance, but had to fight him anyway.

RCgothic
28-04-2008, 08:42
In the Alpha Legion IA it is from the perspective of the Ultramarines. And I'd expect that Guilliman would've known his own brother.

Firstly, Alpharious kept himself to himself, it is entirely plausible that guilleman couldn't tell him from his very similar marines.
IIRC that's also from the perspective of an ultramarine, not guilleman himself. It's even more plasuible that all the witness saw was guilleman killing someone who claimed to be or looked like alpharious (as the entire alpha legion does).
It would also be entirely in the Alpha Legion's interest for outsiders to think they had killed their primarch, which gives motivation for the alpha legion being deliberately misleading about the whole thing.

Supremearchmarshal
28-04-2008, 08:47
I can't really give this account any credit as strangling a Primarch doesn't seem like a credable way of killing them. You'd surely be there for hours while they died of lack of oxygen (if they even need oxygen). Neither can I see Horus stripping off his weapons and breaking out the kung-fu moves.

Maybe he strangled him with a psychic power, Darth Vader style? :p


While I'll agree it seems unrealistic, a seriously wounded Sanguinius just dancing around and stabbing Horus, who is enhanced by the power of all 4 Chaos gods, also seems silly to me. It makes Horus look like a big clumsy oaf, which he certainly isn't, considering he uses Lightning Claws (or just one - damn fluff inconsistencies) - the hardest close combat weapon to master.

At any rate, Sanguinius is still a hero - even wounded, alone and seeing he has no chance at all, he still refuses Horus's offer.



@RCgothic: Primarchs share a sort of psychic link, so Alpharius couldn't fool Guilliman.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 08:56
Firstly, Alpharious kept himself to himself, it is entirely plausible that guilleman couldn't tell him from his very similar marines.
IIRC that's also from the perspective of an ultramarine, not guilleman himself. It's even more plasuible that all the witness saw was guilleman killing someone who claimed to be or looked like alpharious (as the entire alpha legion does).
It would also be entirely in the Alpha Legion's interest for outsiders to think they had killed their primarch, which gives motivation for the alpha legion being deliberately misleading about the whole thing.

Guilliman is known to have met him on several occaisions, including when he personally chastised him for delaying his attack on a city for a week, which Guilliman called IIRC "a waste of time, men and the Emperor's bolt shells". So he'd have known exactly what he looked like, and a primarch isn't especially likely to forget something like that. So unless it was Omegon, it was Alpharius.

I agree with you, certainly it is in the interests of the Alpha Legion, and entirely suits their character, but it serves the Ultramarines nothing by saying that they killed him - they'd've looked pretty stupid if he'd popped up again.

But this is WAAAAAY off the topic of the thread...

Acutus The Unforgiven
28-04-2008, 09:37
Even Though he went to that dark side i'd still say horus. Then Rogel Dorn all the way.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 11:08
Rogal Dorn for me as well. But I went with Russ, coz I used to play SW

Corax
28-04-2008, 11:12
I believe that the question was answered by Horus himself. He said that of all the Primarchs, only Sanguinius was perfect. While each of the others embodied certain aspects of the Emperor, Sanguinius was the greatest of all of them - in Horus' own opinion.

Yes, Horus killed Sanguinius, but he was infused with all the power that Chaos could give him. Perhaps the point is that, infused with the power Chaos, Horus was too powerful for even the Emperor to defeat alone. Maybe Sanguinius went to his death knowing that his role was to make it possible for the Emperor to win?

darth mortis
28-04-2008, 11:28
i voted lion more because i think he would of held back a lot when sparing against his brothers but when it comes to it he did beat russ so the story goes. but i would have to agree that the uberness of the lord angel is impressive, at the end of the day it is hard to say until the hh series or someone from gw state otherwise what realy went on maybe more light will be shed one day??????

Nazguire
28-04-2008, 15:08
@RCgothic: Primarchs share a sort of psychic link, so Alpharius couldn't fool Guilliman.

No one outside the Alpha Legion (apart from probably the Emperor) knew of Omegon, and considering that there were just about zero pictures of Alpharius unmasked, his isolationist nature to his brother Primarch, his Marines that seemed abnormally large (Ranko for starters who was much bigger then the average Marine) and his general trickiness, it's entirely possible that Guiliman was tricked.

Thanatos_elNyx
28-04-2008, 15:21
E: None of the Above....

Baaltharus
28-04-2008, 17:29
No one outside the Alpha Legion (apart from probably the Emperor) knew of Omegon, and considering that there were just about zero pictures of Alpharius unmasked, his isolationist nature to his brother Primarch, his Marines that seemed abnormally large (Ranko for starters who was much bigger then the average Marine) and his general trickiness, it's entirely possible that Guiliman was tricked.

I'm inclined to agree with Supremearchmarshal, the 'decoy marines' may have been big but they were still smaller than either of the Primarchs but more predominantly than this is the psychic link between the Primarchs which no normal marine is going to be able to duplicate. Neither is a normal marine going to be radiating the presence of a Primarch. Ultimately Omegon or Alpharius was killed by Guilliman, though which one we'll probably never know.

elusiveintrovert
28-04-2008, 18:58
I'm inclined to agree with Supremearchmarshal, the 'decoy marines' may have been big but they were still smaller than either of the Primarchs but more predominantly than this is the psychic link between the Primarchs which no normal marine is going to be able to duplicate. Neither is a normal marine going to be radiating the presence of a Primarch. Ultimately Omegon or Alpharius was killed by Guilliman, though which one we'll probably never know.

Wasn't the claim of Alpahrius' death in a report found by an Inquisitor who was later executed for consorting with traitors/heretics? That could throw a whole new realm of possabilities into the mix. I think it was, and if it was, the Alpharius and Guilleman may have never even fought.

Suicide Messiah
28-04-2008, 19:05
If Alpharius was still alive he'd have done somthing by now. He was a master tactician and sneaky but this would be plain cowardice. Remember that ultimately hes a primarch and war is his trade. Plus i think hed see the advantage of him being seen since hes the only living primarch not tied to a demon world (or he would be if not dead).

If hes alive then how is Abaddon in charge?

Who is Omegon?

Rockerfella
28-04-2008, 19:08
Alpharius was just too tricky. I mean, Omegon. I mean.... wait.... who am I talking about here. Alpharigon. Omerius? Whatever.

I just think its perfectly feasable that Alpharius simply 'super sneaked' the 'Super smurf' and that was that.

Maybe.

DivineVisitor
28-04-2008, 19:41
Wasn't the claim of Alpahrius' death in a report found by an Inquisitor who was later executed for consorting with traitors/heretics? That could throw a whole new realm of possabilities into the mix. I think it was, and if it was, the Alpharius and Guilleman may have never even fought.

That's correct. Though if i remember correctly the man simply dissapeared and was branded a heretic by his peers. It could have been a complete fabrication and was basically considered so when light of the man's crimes came to fruition. The document isn't trusted and the Ultramarines there selves can not recall the battle in their records.

As for Alpharius not doing anything by now and thereby some thinking it 'proves' his death. Im sure if he is alive he is quite content with people thinking he may well be dead. How does the quote about the devil go? "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Or in this case, that he is dead.
Plus i really don't see Alpharius taking the reins from Abbadon, its not really his style. He prefers to do things from the shadows and through subterfuge, often without the enemy even knowing anything about what Alpharius has planned for them.

Supremearchmarshal
28-04-2008, 20:16
I see three possibilities:

1) The marine was insane and just rambled nonsense - the fight never happened.

2) The fight happened, the marine saw Guilliman kill one of the fake Alphariuses, but the marine failed to notice it was not the real Alpharius.

3) The fight happened, Guilliman killed either Alpharius or Omegon. Like I said, the only impostor who could fool Giulliman himself would be Omegon.

Suicide Messiah
28-04-2008, 21:32
Sit in the shadows? Is this the same guy who attacked Horus's fleet, boarded his ship and fought his way right to the warmaster? Oh yeah im sure hed have no problem with a mere 1st company captain or whatever having infinitly more power and influence than him (and yes he does/would have). Good thing that Alpharius is the only primarch without a whiff of pride or arrogance.

Sitting in the shadows, hiding isnt doing anything. Its one of those open ended GW things that never gets explained. Think about it. The primarcehs were pretty much living god, nothing save a C'tan is going to give them any trouble. Now take the most tactically gifted of them and put him in a universe where hes the only active primarch. Are you seriously saying that the Alpha legion wouldnt be running the show, bearing in mind Alpharius wanted nothing more than to show how great his legion is?

Hes dead.

Archangel_Ruined
28-04-2008, 21:47
Horus was just the best primarch, it's the lynchpin of the entire heresy and therefore 40K universe. Methinks it's a moot point though, people will always have their favourites and that's a good thing.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-04-2008, 22:03
Sit in the shadows? Is this the same guy who attacked Horus's fleet, boarded his ship and fought his way right to the warmaster? Oh yeah im sure hed have no problem with a mere 1st company captain or whatever having infinitly more power and influence than him (and yes he does/would have). Good thing that Alpharius is the only primarch without a whiff of pride or arrogance.

Sitting in the shadows, hiding isnt doing anything. Its one of those open ended GW things that never gets explained. Think about it. The primarcehs were pretty much living god, nothing save a C'tan is going to give them any trouble. Now take the most tactically gifted of them and put him in a universe where hes the only active primarch. Are you seriously saying that the Alpha legion wouldnt be running the show, bearing in mind Alpharius wanted nothing more than to show how great his legion is?

Hes dead.

A good argument, but still. Alpharius' Legion isn't doing too bad at all- probably a hell of a lot more than the Black Crusades have done (woohoo, Chaos got a foot on it's own doorstep, good job Eye of Terror... so what have the Daemon Primarchs been doing?) with all their sabotage and rabble-rousing. For every enemy without there are a hundred within, and the Alpha Legion have their fingers in a lot of those proverbial pies.

Besides, Alpharius was known to test his Legion with extended absences. Perhaps he's at work on something big somewhere else (sabotaging the C'tan and/or Nids, perhaps?) while his Legion raises hell and thinks he's gone.