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Gorgoroth
26-04-2008, 22:45
I was watching my brother play Halo 3 and seeing how he (as the Master Chief) would just bust into a room filled with little grunt type dudes and bigger ork/yeti looking things and whoop some ass.

I mean yeah he did die every now and then but I was wondering if in fluff terms (not game terms) a single space marine would have the same resilence/combat skill as the Master Chief?

Thanks for your comments

Chaplain of Chaos
26-04-2008, 22:50
I always considered them to be about the same, the toughness of a SM coming from his ceramite power armour and his resilience and the Master Chiefs toughness coming from his speed, agility and shields as it does state that as awsome as his Mjolnir armor plating is it still can barely stand up to a few hits from a plasa rifle (this is fluff btw)

The diffrence is that the John-117 is protected by a massive amount of Plot Armor.

aenarion67
26-04-2008, 22:54
needs a bolter and the whole space marine factor. maybe needs to be a bit taller?

Gorgoroth
26-04-2008, 22:57
I was thinking that the Master Chief is perhaps more equivilent to the Emperors Champion with the hire initiative, WS etc (minus a massive black sword).

MrPickles
26-04-2008, 23:12
15 battle rifle rounds to the head = 1 dead master chief

Bolter > Battle Rifle

Space marine > Master Chief

Koryphaus
26-04-2008, 23:23
15 battle rifle rounds to the head = 1 dead master chief

Bolter > Battle Rifle

Space marine > Master Chief

Hah nice :)

No, Master Chief has a LONG way to go yet betore he reaches the heights of space marine-hood. He's certainly far and away better than the marines he fights with, so perhaps he's more like the original genetically enhanced warriors (kinda a proto-space marine) that the emperor used to conquer earth...?

Chaplain of Chaos
27-04-2008, 00:23
I said it before. Plot Armor, or didn't you know that Space Marines where trained at the Imperial Sharpshooters Academy

sabreu
27-04-2008, 00:39
I know you guys are going to hate me for pointing this out but... Master Chief is a Space Marine, by the definition of the term. So by Fluff RAW this thread is moot. ;)

Skirnak
27-04-2008, 01:18
I know you guys are going to hate me for pointing this out but... Master Chief is a Space Marine, by the definition of the term. So by Fluff RAW this thread is moot. ;)

Depends on the definition. There is no geneseed, therefore he is no marine.

Chaplain of Chaos
27-04-2008, 01:19
He's not Adeptus Astartes though, he's just a UNSC Space Marine.

Battle-Brother Wags
27-04-2008, 01:33
I would agree that a single space marine vs. master chief in any sort of ruckus from a fist fight all the way up to a ranged assault would kick his cyborg butt.

But the whole topic once again brings up those lunch table discussions on a lazy saturday afternoon after a morning full of halo playing on my old college campus contemplating how long a single spartan would have lasted holding off the brunt of Pickett's Charge at gettysburg by himself . . . given unlimited ammo, of course.

sabreu
27-04-2008, 01:46
Depends on the definition. There is no geneseed, therefore he is no marine.

Geneseed a Marine makes not. We have Marines in real life and they don't need any of these fellows.:p


He's not Adeptus Astartes though, he's just a UNSC Space Marine.

Yep, that's what I was getting at. I was playing around, but the point stands. :p Master Chief is a Space Marine, through and through.

As for Master Chief taking down an Adeptus Astartes? Of course he can; All he needs is a headshot. ;) You know just like me that Sergeants don't wear helmets!

dr.oetk3r
27-04-2008, 01:49
Yep, master chief is a "marine." No geneseed required :)

Geddonight
27-04-2008, 02:14
As for Master Chief taking down an Adeptus Astartes? Of course he can; All he needs is a headshot. ;) You know just like me that Sergeants don't wear helmets!

Baah, Astartes Sergeants don't need helmets--their craniums stop bullets. What do you think those metal round thingies are protruding from the marines' skulls are? They're not implants :angel:

I think that if a Tau firewarrior (ala Kais) can take out an entire army of IG, SM, and CSM, then Plot Armor is better than a titan in this case.

Dragonlv8
27-04-2008, 02:45
As for Master Chief taking down an Adeptus Astartes? Of course he can; All he needs is a headshot. ;) You know just like me that Sergeants don't wear helmets!
My whole Black templar army wears helmets and im at 2000pts, even my Marshal has a helmet.
except my neophytes....

DarkAzrael169
27-04-2008, 07:25
He is not a Space Marine becuase of several reasons:
1. Dosen't have geneseed
2. A shot to the head from a Human Sniper Rifle kills him... which is smaller than a bolter round... leads to next point
3. Him with MLJNOR armour and his shield are still weaker than Power Armour in relation to what they can take damage wise.
4. Yes he is genetically and physically enhanced but no where near that of a Space Marine.

However keep in mind, he would be a Proto- Space Marine and if he would be given a set of power armour and a bolter... He would kick ass:evilgrin:. Individualy 1 Space Marine VS. Master Chief = dead Space Marine. Thats because hes a BADASS. BADASS Special Rule negates all other abilities that the enemy might have:cheese:. Its not just Plot Armour... :D

mongoosedog300
27-04-2008, 07:37
I think Chief would be much faster than a marine (fluff wise, he's meant to be able to run at like 60 miles and hour or something like that) and have strength similar to a marine, but he wouldn't be as tough.

While MJOLNIR, toughness wise, is not as good as power armour, its further enhances chiefs already awesome speed and strength, and has a whole load of sensors and image filters and what not.....

I would say Cheif would be like a fusion of an exarch and a captain/master rank marine :p

DarkAzrael169
27-04-2008, 07:42
Ya same strength, just not as tough. About the same skill, if not more. He would have fleet, and would have around initiative 5-6.

Tonberry
27-04-2008, 09:43
Master Chief also lacks a Space marines auto-senses, as he gets blinded by the flare things.

aenarion67
27-04-2008, 09:51
also masater cheif can spit acid, smell u like a warhound and kick u once and snap u into two. chuck norris could beat them both IMO.

Koryphaus
27-04-2008, 09:58
Chuck Norris would fight very bravely, and would die very quickly.

T_55
27-04-2008, 10:06
I think that if a Tau firewarrior (ala Kais) can take out an entire army of IG, SM, and CSM, then Plot Armor is better than a titan in this case.

Quoted for truth. :p

Neknoh
27-04-2008, 10:09
In order to shave, Chuck Norris roundhousekicks himself in the face every morning, because the only thing capable of hurting Chuck Norris is Chuck Norris himself.


I know I will be hated for this, BUT, to me, Master Chief appears to be on Stormtrooper level (or perhaps Stormtrooper Sergeant) when compared to human 40k units. This thought originates from the fact that the PDF in 40k is equivalent of real world standing armies ala. the US and UK armies.

The best of the best from the PDF forces are taken to become the Imperial Guard. This means that we have the equivalents of SAS, Navy SEALS etc. etc. for the REGULAR Guardsmen.

The Elite of THOSE guys are brought in as Stormtroopers, and wouldn't suprise me if some of them have some slight gene-modifications etc.

So, if he's above that, he wouldn't be far above it at all, I'd say maybe stronger and quicker, but armour, skill and toughness-wise, he's about the same as an Imperial Stormtrooper.

Dakkagor
27-04-2008, 10:10
I've always thought master chiefs stats would look something like this:

WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A1 LD10 (immune to psychology)

Special rules:
Independant character
shields: mjolnir armour provideds a 4+ save and an ablative wound that regenerates every round. If a hit is taken on this wound that would inflict instant death due to strength (IE:a krak missile) it takes away the shield wound and nothing else
Infiltrate or deepstrike as scenario allows
fleet
move through cover
Eliminate sentries (any sentries killed in cc only raise the alarm on a six)
Enhanced strength: the master chief may double his strength for attacking tanks in close combat and may usew the slow and purposeful rule to fire heavy weapons on the move.
Recover weapons: the spartan may steal the weapon of any person he kills. Hemay also swap weapons with a squad he has joined

Equipment: equipped with an autogun, frag and krak grenades and a bolt pistol.
May swap the autogun for a tau pulse rifle (covenant rifle), flamer, missile launcher, heavy bolter, sniper rifle, plasma gun, spine fist (brute spiker), shotgun, shotgun pistol
may swap the pistol for a thunder hammer, powersword, plasma pistol, shotgun pistol (range 6 str3 ap6 assault2), spine fist, plasma gun

If he takes the same option twice, he may use them together and fire both in the same turn.

I'd say that would would whip the average space marine from here to tianamon square. But by marine standards he is shockingly fragile, and a well equipped captain/chapter master woudl own him big time.

T_55
27-04-2008, 10:16
I dunno Neknoh, sometimes they just have a mass conscription and everyone is thrown into the Imperial Guard regardless of skill. And aparently to wikipedia storm troopers are raised and trained seperately from the imperial guard by the schola and because of their largely strike force role i've always considered them akin to the Helljumpers.

I've got another question, how do people think Elites fair in the 40k realm, are they a match for marines?

Gorgoroth
27-04-2008, 10:31
I've always thought master chiefs stats would look something like this:

WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A1 LD10 (immune to psychology)

Special rules:
Independant character
shields: mjolnir armour provideds a 4+ save and an ablative wound that regenerates every round. If a hit is taken on this wound that would inflict instant death due to strength (IE:a krak missile) it takes away the shield wound and nothing else
Infiltrate or deepstrike as scenario allows
fleet
move through cover
Eliminate sentries (any sentries killed in cc only raise the alarm on a six)
Enhanced strength: the master chief may double his strength for attacking tanks in close combat and may usew the slow and purposeful rule to fire heavy weapons on the move.
Recover weapons: the spartan may steal the weapon of any person he kills. Hemay also swap weapons with a squad he has joined

Equipment: equipped with an autogun, frag and krak grenades and a bolt pistol.
May swap the autogun for a tau pulse rifle (covenant rifle), flamer, missile launcher, heavy bolter, sniper rifle, plasma gun, spine fist (brute spiker), shotgun, shotgun pistol
may swap the pistol for a thunder hammer, powersword, plasma pistol, shotgun pistol (range 6 str3 ap6 assault2), spine fist, plasma gun

If he takes the same option twice, he may use them together and fire both in the same turn.

I'd say that would would whip the average space marine from here to tianamon square. But by marine standards he is shockingly fragile, and a well equipped captain/chapter master woudl own him big time.

Yep sounds nice. Id also add this rule:

Comandeer Vehicle: If the Master Chief starts a turn with 6" of an enemy vehicle, he may attempt to comandeer it. Roll a dice for effect:
1: Whoops, the Chief automatically dies because he got squished in the attempt
2-5: Great success however the chief may not move or shoot with the vehicle until next turn.
6: Great success and the chief may use the vehicle that turn as normal.

sabreu
27-04-2008, 12:22
;);)
I know I will be hated for this, BUT, to me, Master Chief appears to be on Stormtrooper level (or perhaps Stormtrooper Sergeant) when compared to human 40k units. This thought originates from the fact that the PDF in 40k is equivalent of real world standing armies ala. the US and UK armies.

Nah. Stormtroopers are just 40k equivalents of real, non story book hero marines. You know, like those guys in Halo that aren't Master Cheif. They just couldn't use the title Marines twice. ;)

Koryphaus
27-04-2008, 13:18
In order to shave, Chuck Norris roundhousekicks himself in the face every morning, because the only thing capable of hurting Chuck Norris is Chuck Norris himself.


I know I will be hated for this, BUT, to me, Master Chief appears to be on Stormtrooper level (or perhaps Stormtrooper Sergeant) when compared to human 40k units. This thought originates from the fact that the PDF in 40k is equivalent of real world standing armies ala. the US and UK armies.

The best of the best from the PDF forces are taken to become the Imperial Guard. This means that we have the equivalents of SAS, Navy SEALS etc. etc. for the REGULAR Guardsmen.

The Elite of THOSE guys are brought in as Stormtroopers, and wouldn't suprise me if some of them have some slight gene-modifications etc.

So, if he's above that, he wouldn't be far above it at all, I'd say maybe stronger and quicker, but armour, skill and toughness-wise, he's about the same as an Imperial Stormtrooper.


I dunno Neknoh, sometimes they just have a mass conscription and everyone is thrown into the Imperial Guard regardless of skill. And aparently to wikipedia storm troopers are raised and trained seperately from the imperial guard by the schola and because of their largely strike force role i've always considered them akin to the Helljumpers.

I've got another question, how do people think Elites fair in the 40k realm, are they a match for marines?

I read that when they raise a regiment of Imperial Guard from a world, they take a set number of men from every 10 in the PDF, in this manner whilst some of the best troops make it to the IG, some of the best also remain to bolster the PDF remaining on the planet.

Templar Ben
27-04-2008, 13:23
He is not a Space Marine becuase of several reasons:
1. Dosen't have geneseed
2. A shot to the head from a Human Sniper Rifle kills him... which is smaller than a bolter round... leads to next point
3. Him with MLJNOR armour and his shield are still weaker than Power Armour in relation to what they can take damage wise.
4. Yes he is genetically and physically enhanced but no where near that of a Space Marine.

However keep in mind, he would be a Proto- Space Marine and if he would be given a set of power armour and a bolter... He would kick ass:evilgrin:. Individualy 1 Space Marine VS. Master Chief = dead Space Marine. Thats because hes a BADASS. BADASS Special Rule negates all other abilities that the enemy might have:cheese:. Its not just Plot Armour... :D

I agree. By rule of cool, Master Chief is the best.

Besides he is a Master Chief, as a Navy man I can tell you that trumps all. :cool:

Commisar BoB
27-04-2008, 14:19
I dont know why you guys are saying the Master Chief's armor is more fragile then power armor. The guy fell from orbit without a drop pod and survived to fight 5 minutes later.

Master Chief for the WIN

MrPickles
27-04-2008, 14:33
The guy fell from orbit without a drop pod and survived to fight 5 minutes later.

And a terminator got walked on by a ******* titan and survived. Master Chief becomes a rag doll whenever an ATV runs him over.

Cenyu
27-04-2008, 14:54
I read that when they raise a regiment of Imperial Guard from a world, they take a set number of men from every 10 in the PDF, in this manner whilst some of the best troops make it to the IG, some of the best also remain to bolster the PDF remaining on the planet.

That's from Eisenhorn and as far as I remember only applies for Cadians. Regardless of qualifications or other factors one out of ten soldiers becomes PDF.

Müller
27-04-2008, 15:18
Master Chief is a *******' wuss

Master Chief<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Space Marine

Ainurfire
27-04-2008, 15:21
I have thought about this before, and in my mind, Master Chief may be more agile up close than a Space Marine (due to being less bulky), but otherwise is inferior in everything, except for maybe running speed (where they may be equal). Power armor is almost definitely tougher than MJOLNIR, although it lacks the regenerating shields. Space Marines themselves have shown stronger feats of strength (Master Chief flipping tanks like the Scorpion is gameplay mechanics and nothing more), have survived more damage, etc.

If Master Chief were put into 40k my personal take on his stats would be something like:

WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A1 LD10 4+ save

Special rules however I dunno. I wouldn't make his save invulnerable (as he can be killed instantly in the game pretty easily) I think, but allow him to reroll for saves that don't kill him outright (S8+). Roll for possibly regenerating a wound would be good.

Maybe some sort of infiltration/deep strike rule, as well as maybe something relating to him having Cortana being able to boost his capabilities in some way.

Also alllow him to switch between two weapons that can be chosen before starting a game

Keadaen
27-04-2008, 15:32
I generally just see him as a scout (Or the captain of the scouts if he could wear scout armour) with a invulnerability save, I figure infiltrate, being able to deep strike via drop pod, move threw cover, the option for pistols, rifles, shotguns, swords, missile launchers, heavy "machine guns" nicely covers all options.

DivineVisitor
27-04-2008, 17:57
Some people seem to underestimate the Master Chief IMO.

As someone said earlier, he fell from orbit and was fighting shortly afterwards, i can't even imagine a marine in Terminator armour managing something similar, they need Drop Pods for that sorta thing. Sure IN GAME he dies when he's run over. But point that out in fluff? You can't. It didn't happen.

Fluff wise he takes on armies and sways the battle. I've even heard of one of his Spartan buddies kicking a tank a fair distance, point out a marine that can boot a Rhino even a meter. Doesn't happen. Even the strongest marine in the background Ranulf was only able to push a wrecked Land Raider. The Chief is the way i see it, faster, tougher maybe even stronger and odds are better tacticly minded than your average Space Marine.

Müller
27-04-2008, 19:26
yeah, but fluff that says he can cick a tank far is just bull when he needs several butt hits on some enemies to kill them in CC.....

Templar Ben
27-04-2008, 21:22
This video made my wife cry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq2akuhFaB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnCs46FEtqA

When there is something similar for a GW Space Marine then perhaps.

DivineVisitor
27-04-2008, 22:02
yeah, but fluff that says he can kick a tank far is just bull when he needs several butt hits on some enemies to kill them in CC.....

Or perhaps the several hits to kill enemies in close combat is bull because it happens in game and the fluff about kicking tanks stands?

It's a game, if he was as hard as he was supposed to be it'd be too easy.

Koryphaus
27-04-2008, 22:32
That's from Eisenhorn and as far as I remember only applies for Cadians. Regardless of qualifications or other factors one out of ten soldiers becomes PDF.

Is it really? I havn't read Eisenhorn.. Funny how stuff like that happens isnt it? Must've been an excerpt in WD or something.

TheOverlord
27-04-2008, 23:23
I'm sorry but why would master chief even be bs5? If anything, he'd be bs3 or 4. I'd like you to take your controller, and or mouse if you have the PC version, and attempt to shoot at an enemy from far range. You'll notice at least half or a third of the shots go wild.

Master Chief is no where near a Space Marine. He is not faster, not more agile. A Space Marine in fluff can move his limbs so fast the human eye can barely catch it, he can drop himself on a falling mortar even before it starts to explode, can lift whole trucks by himself, and run several hundred miles without breaking a sweat, and can sprint insanely fast because of the armor servos. Plus a Space Marine is trained for decades on the art of warfare, so his ability to track, locate and eliminate the enemy is far superior to any human, enhanced or not.

The TT simply does little justice to their fluff, but they have to be balanced at some point.]

edit- This will of course drastically change depending on which fanboi is writing the fluff at the very moment though. Basically this is how a marine is like in Inquisitor, which is as close to the fluff as a game could get. Also depending if Master Chief gets a cinematic when fighting this fight, because as we all know, Plot Armor is strongest when a cinematic is going on :P

mongoosedog300
28-04-2008, 08:15
I'm sorry but why would master chief even be bs5? If anything, he'd be bs3 or 4. I'd like you to take your controller, and or mouse if you have the PC version, and attempt to shoot at an enemy from far range. You'll notice at least half or a third of the shots go wild.

Master Chief is no where near a Space Marine. He is not faster, not more agile. A Space Marine in fluff can move his limbs so fast the human eye can barely catch it, he can drop himself on a falling mortar even before it starts to explode, can lift whole trucks by himself, and run several hundred miles without breaking a sweat, and can sprint insanely fast because of the armor servos. Plus a Space Marine is trained for decades on the art of warfare, so his ability to track, locate and eliminate the enemy is far superior to any human, enhanced or not.


If you've read any of the Halo books you'll know the extent to which the SPARTAN 2's have been trained, I would say MORE than a marine, they started their training at 6. MC also recieved his enhancements at the age of 12, a few years before space marines are even chosen for training. Chief has deflected a rocket in a inferior suit of MJOLNIR (one without an energy shield, and that didn't enhance him as much as the ones in the games, which still didn't give the full extent of his suit), I would also say MC is much better tactically than a marine, as he's not afraid to use enemy weapons/vehicles (he also knows how too, where as a marine would not), and not held back by religious doctrine.

By the end of the halo games MC is around the 50-60 years old mark (can't remember exactly)....so yeah....he's had decades of battle experience. Your judging MC off the game, while judging marines off Fluff, which is an unfair comparison. As someone said before, If they made MC in the game what he was in fluff, it would be too easy.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 08:25
If you've read any of the Halo books you'll know the extent to which the SPARTAN 2's have been trained, I would say MORE than a marine, they started their training at 6. MC also recieved his enhancements at the age of 12, a few years before space marines are even chosen for training. Chief has deflected a rocket in a inferior suit of MJOLNIR (one without an energy shield, and that didn't enhance him as much as the ones in the games, which still didn't give the full extent of his suit), I would also say MC is much better tactically than a marine, as he's not afraid to use enemy weapons/vehicles (he also knows how too, where as a marine would not), and not held back by religious doctrine.

By the end of the halo games MC is around the 50-60 years old mark (can't remember exactly)....so yeah....he's had decades of battle experience. Your judging MC off the game, while judging marines off Fluff, which is an unfair comparison. As someone said before, If they made MC in the game what he was in fluff, it would be too easy.

Ever heard of the Relictors? They use enemy equipment, and look where it got them. Master Chief will head the same way when the Inquisition catches up to him.

Oh, he's 50-60? I once heard a story about a space marine whose more than 1100... He wears pretty golden armour. And there are plenty of marines who are 200-300 years old, and been fighting for basically that whole time.

jhon
28-04-2008, 08:32
I've always thought master chiefs stats would look something like this:

WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A1 LD10 (immune to psychology)

Special rules:
Independant character
shields: mjolnir armour provideds a 4+ save and an ablative wound that regenerates every round. If a hit is taken on this wound that would inflict instant death due to strength (IE:a krak missile) it takes away the shield wound and nothing else
Infiltrate or deepstrike as scenario allows
fleet
move through cover
Eliminate sentries (any sentries killed in cc only raise the alarm on a six)
Enhanced strength: the master chief may double his strength for attacking tanks in close combat and may usew the slow and purposeful rule to fire heavy weapons on the move.
Recover weapons: the spartan may steal the weapon of any person he kills. Hemay also swap weapons with a squad he has joined

Equipment: equipped with an autogun, frag and krak grenades and a bolt pistol.
May swap the autogun for a tau pulse rifle (covenant rifle), flamer, missile launcher, heavy bolter, sniper rifle, plasma gun, spine fist (brute spiker), shotgun, shotgun pistol
may swap the pistol for a thunder hammer, powersword, plasma pistol, shotgun pistol (range 6 str3 ap6 assault2), spine fist, plasma gun

If he takes the same option twice, he may use them together and fire both in the same turn.

I'd say that would would whip the average space marine from here to tianamon square. But by marine standards he is shockingly fragile, and a well equipped captain/chapter master woudl own him big time.

agree .. but with few adjust i think:
he sould got two attack due to his super speed and rending due to his super str . [ he can push a ton tank with his attack ]
4 + armour save from the monjir armour and a 5+ ive save from his speed and the shield .

DivineVisitor
28-04-2008, 11:39
I'm sorry but why would master chief even be bs5? If anything, he'd be bs3 or 4. I'd like you to take your controller, and or mouse if you have the PC version, and attempt to shoot at an enemy from far range. You'll notice at least half or a third of the shots go wild.

Master Chief is no where near a Space Marine. He is not faster, not more agile. A Space Marine in fluff can move his limbs so fast the human eye can barely catch it, he can drop himself on a falling mortar even before it starts to explode, can lift whole trucks by himself, and run several hundred miles without breaking a sweat, and can sprint insanely fast because of the armor servos. Plus a Space Marine is trained for decades on the art of warfare, so his ability to track, locate and eliminate the enemy is far superior to any human, enhanced or not.

The TT simply does little justice to their fluff, but they have to be balanced at some point.]

edit- This will of course drastically change depending on which fanboi is writing the fluff at the very moment though. Basically this is how a marine is like in Inquisitor, which is as close to the fluff as a game could get. Also depending if Master Chief gets a cinematic when fighting this fight, because as we all know, Plot Armor is strongest when a cinematic is going on :P

And here you'll find a prime example of someone who hasn't a clue what there talking about :rolleyes:

People need to forget the in game stuff and think fluff.
Hell even in game some people are skilled enough to shoot grenades out of the sky with a sniper rifle from short distances.

The Chief is hard as nails, fast, skilled, strong, intelligent perhaps even more so than the majority of Space Marines. One on one with a single marine? He would toast them.

Hostilius
28-04-2008, 15:00
Be reminded folks, the Master Chief and his fellow SPARTANS utilized technology dated from the early era of Dark Age of Technology. The Space Marines on the other hand utilized technology that is from post Dark Age of Technology.

I'd say in urban or jungle warfare, Master Chief (Special Character) is more than a match for individual marines save Terminators. However in the open, it is where the Space Marines superior armor and weaponry is decisive factor to win the battle. In combat effectiveness SPARTANS are better than Kasrkins but inferior than Space Marines.

Redstormrisen
28-04-2008, 17:02
Depends on the definition. There is no geneseed, therefore he is no marine.

He's not even a Marine.

Master Chief Petty Officer.

He is Navy.

Sekhmet
28-04-2008, 17:35
He's not even a Marine.

Master Chief Petty Officer.

He is Navy.

Assuming ranks are the same in the future.

Seriously guys, halo and 40k are not on the same timeline. You cannot say that the MC uses technology from the dark age, it makes no sense at all.

The MC can pick up weapons from his enemies and use them... so what? SMs can do that too, but they don't. Why would they ditch a bolter, a gun that fires mini-rockets in 3 round bursts, for a puny lasgun or a gun that shoots ninja stars? Ork weapons require an ork to use due to psychic fields, so no one can use those. We can probably assume that Tau weapons are genetically coded to Tau / Kroot and to specific Gue'la.

The MC has more training than a Marine? No. Training from 6-60 means he has what, 50 years of training and 10 years of combat experience? SMs can live for a thousand years, maybe more if they're Chaos. Starting training early does not negate hundreds of years of experience.

I'd agree that a Spartan is faster than a Marine due to the nature of his armor. His shields probably provide more protection as well. But I'd give a SM with a bolter 2:1 odds of beating a Spartan with a battle rifle. In closecombat with out any weapons or armor, the SM would win hands down.

Just remember that the MC is like a special character version of a Spartan. He does things that other Spartans really don't. So the MC vs a generic SM, I'd say the MC would win. Generic Spartan-II vs generic SM, I'd say the SM would win.

DrDogmeat
28-04-2008, 18:17
I've started reading the books and played all the games.

For a start the master chief can fall from the atmosphere land in a jungle and he's fine. His shield would be like a wardsave, he's also got 'luck', so that he'd probably have a wardsave for that. Its not about the game, where you miss with the master chief, he doesn't miss in the books and i bet some people are so good at the games they don't miss either.

The battle rifle wouldn't take down a space marine so they spartans wouldn't take them, they have access to loads of weapons. So they'd take spartan lasers, missile launcher, missile pod even the sniper would take a marine down. In particular there is a Spartan at the beginning who could probably shoot the gaps in the space marine armour if it didn't pierce it, she can kill like 1 per second. A spartan is probably quick enough to dodge a bolter (especially if they're like they are on Firewarrior

Obviously its ridiculous to even talk about who'd win. But I think a normal spartan would probably handle an average space marine unless he was really poorly equiped. The normal spartans would be killed by anything else. The master chief would have luck on his side and would be able to take almost anything on, thats what he's about, thats the story.

x-esiv-4c
28-04-2008, 18:22
MC's abilities are purely reliant on the player.
You say he can take anything on. I'm sure he can on easy mode.

Flip the game to legendary and go through it without dying and reloading the game, see how far you get.

The Guy
28-04-2008, 19:05
Chief = win (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8rdc-0OpQ)
He is funnier than a SM. That's all that matters.

TheOverlord
28-04-2008, 20:01
And here you'll find a prime example of someone who hasn't a clue what there talking about :rolleyes:

People need to forget the in game stuff and think fluff.
Hell even in game some people are skilled enough to shoot grenades out of the sky with a sniper rifle from short distances.

The Chief is hard as nails, fast, skilled, strong, intelligent perhaps even more so than the majority of Space Marines. One on one with a single marine? He would toast them.

Ok fine, you want to act smug and talk about fluff? Fine.

A space marine has at least 50 years of combat experience before he is EVEN considered to wear the Black Carapace and receive the Space Marine armor. They all are trained in the highest form of accuracy training, as each as required to know all manners of weaponry by the end of his term till he relinquishes those weapons for the bolter. A single marine has the tactical acumen of a veteran general and each are trained for photographic memory to recall every stone set at a single glance so they can better plan for their strategy. They can breathe underwater, have 4 lungs, 2 hearts, bones that are like steel and muscles three times the size of normal human beings. They can see in the dark, spit acid at their enemies, and do not need sleep for weeks on end. And no, they don't need to rely on their armor or cinematics to drop from orbit to planetfall.

Talking about game perspective, let's be frank then. This is based off a hero that is obviously meant to be played by players. Fine, let us talk about the ability of a Space Marine in Inquisitor then. A Space Marine in Inquisitor can easily handle over 10 enemies by himself, either shooting or melee, and can kill human beings with the simple act of slapping them. They can take shots that could kill a normal human being 5 times over, and this is only a normal marine, much less a truly formidable hero of ages like a Captain or even a lowly seargent, who's requirement to such levels of honor is at least 200 years of service.

Master Chief can barely hold off more than 3 of his enemies at any one go in the game.

In fluff, a single marine can easily hold off or even sabotage an entire army by himself given the proper preparation and desperation. They can leap 3 times the normal average of a man, and can punch through solid rock. Their armor has the capacity to withstand shots from light anti-tank rounds, unless shot by extreme amounts of shots in which by statistics they will eventually hit a joint of weak spot, to which it is not necessarily that they will die from the wound at all. They can take a shot to the eye, and walk away from it alive.

Now I want you to act your smug ways again, and come with an argument more solid than 'I think I know more so I'll just assume that the other guy's argument is totally void by simple blanket statements that are pathetically obtuse.'

Wanna troll little man? Go try again. I can troll with the best of them, and you're about as small as a fry could get.

Now for a proper argument. Master Chief is NOT faster than the average marine, but I would argue he is AS fast, but he lacks the pure brute savage strength of an Astartes. He may also be as accurate as a marine, but not necessarily more accurate, as demonstrated as a BS 5 character. He is at the very most, a BS4 character if you're going to port him into 40k tt. He also lacks the fighting prowess and experience of a Space Marine, but he's smart, given that, but then again, so are Marines. They're not going to get caught off guard that easily.

This argument, ultimately, is futile though. They need a uber hard character, so they created one. But his enemies are squishy and inherently stupid as compared to the enemies in 40k. It's like arguing a match between Batman and... hmm... let us say Xavier. In the end, the only people who win, are the guys who make money off the nerds like us.

DivineVisitor
28-04-2008, 21:05
Ok fine, you want to act smug and talk about fluff? Fine.

A space marine has at least 50 years of combat experience before he is EVEN considered to wear the Black Carapace and receive the Space Marine armor. They all are trained in the highest form of accuracy training, as each as required to know all manners of weaponry by the end of his term till he relinquishes those weapons for the bolter. A single marine has the tactical acumen of a veteran general and each are trained for photographic memory to recall every stone set at a single glance so they can better plan for their strategy. They can breathe underwater, have 4 lungs, 2 hearts, bones that are like steel and muscles three times the size of normal human beings. They can see in the dark, spit acid at their enemies, and do not need sleep for weeks on end. And no, they don't need to rely on their armor or cinematics to drop from orbit to planetfall.

Talking about game perspective, let's be frank then. This is based off a hero that is obviously meant to be played by players. Fine, let us talk about the ability of a Space Marine in Inquisitor then. A Space Marine in Inquisitor can easily handle over 10 enemies by himself, either shooting or melee, and can kill human beings with the simple act of slapping them. They can take shots that could kill a normal human being 5 times over, and this is only a normal marine, much less a truly formidable hero of ages like a Captain or even a lowly seargent, who's requirement to such levels of honor is at least 200 years of service.

Master Chief can barely hold off more than 3 of his enemies at any one go in the game.

In fluff, a single marine can easily hold off or even sabotage an entire army by himself given the proper preparation and desperation. They can leap 3 times the normal average of a man, and can punch through solid rock. Their armor has the capacity to withstand shots from light anti-tank rounds, unless shot by extreme amounts of shots in which by statistics they will eventually hit a joint of weak spot, to which it is not necessarily that they will die from the wound at all. They can take a shot to the eye, and walk away from it alive.

Now I want you to act your smug ways again, and come with an argument more solid than 'I think I know more so I'll just assume that the other guy's argument is totally void by simple blanket statements that are pathetically obtuse.'

Wanna troll little man? Go try again. I can troll with the best of them, and you're about as small as a fry could get.

Now for a proper argument. Master Chief is NOT faster than the average marine, but I would argue he is AS fast, but he lacks the pure brute savage strength of an Astartes. He may also be as accurate as a marine, but not necessarily more accurate, as demonstrated as a BS 5 character. He is at the very most, a BS4 character if you're going to port him into 40k tt. He also lacks the fighting prowess and experience of a Space Marine, but he's smart, given that, but then again, so are Marines. They're not going to get caught off guard that easily.

This argument, ultimately, is futile though. They need a uber hard character, so they created one. But his enemies are squishy and inherently stupid as compared to the enemies in 40k. It's like arguing a match between Batman and... hmm... let us say Xavier. In the end, the only people who win, are the guys who make money off the nerds like us.

Wow i really hit a nerve didn't i?
Look im not trying to start a full blown argument here im just attempting to show that here, ALOT of people are seriously underestimating the Chief. You for example were going ahead trying to use in game mechanics in order to prove that the Chief should be BS 4 and demonstrated from my point of view that you don't seem to know much in the way of a Spartan II's abilities.

The list of Space Marine knowledge there is pretty good. But the things listed don't exactly make the Chief look weak in comparison.

Yes he's not as experienced, that fact is 100% correct. However his knowledge of battlefield tactics is second to none in the universe he lives in and it is unknown how much that experience would play a role for the Marine. Even the most dogged veterans could learn a thing or two from people who would be considered to have less experience. By your reasoning it seems to be you rank a Tactical Marine as being just as capable of commanding armies as say great Guard generals like Yarrik or Solar Lord Macarius but this isn't so.

Mark I Moljinar armour was supposed to be capable of lifting 2 tonnes. The Chief wears Mark VI. Though i can't remember reading about its strength and speed capacities, only that it increases them all incredibly, is basically immune to small arms fire and highly resistant to covenant plasma weapons. Someone else also talked about it deflecting a missile round earlier in the thread so it is extremely resilient. Although for obvious game reasons it isn't nearly as impressive on the XBox.

The Chief having difficulty with 3 enemies simultaneously in game? Maybe for some players but alot will see that as a walk in the park. I can even lay claim to defeating double that number simultaneously on the net when my skills were sharp. The game in comparison is easier than that. But as already mentioned if he was as good as he was supposed to be in game. It would all be too easy.

Fluff wise the Chief can take on alot more than in game, and is revered as a Demon by the Covenant for a reason.
You talk about Marines having their bones bonded with Steel. Spartan II's have their bones bonded with Titanium and are supposed to be virtually unbreakable.
I would also argue that he would be capable of eliminating 10 enemies by himself being that he basically turned the tide of the war against the Covenant single handedly.
Kill human beings with a slap? One of his friends was said to have booted a tank a fair distance, i wouldn't put it past the Chief being able to kill a man by slapping them hard enough.
Take shots that could kill a normal human 5 times over? Well he is capable of falling from orbit and not only surviving, but being fit enough to fight not long afterwards with minimal damage to both himself and his armour.

In the end the argument is fruitless so let's just agree to disagree as we don't (or i don't at least) fully know the Chief's capabilities. We are unsure how much the guy can bench press, how fast he can run etc. I can't claim to be an ubergeek that knows the game and its hero inside out. I just know a thing or two. But i know enough to believe that Marines are not vastly superior to the Spartan II's. What little i for one know about the Spartans causes me to to rank them pretty close or even better than the average Space Marine.

Sekhmet
28-04-2008, 21:28
Solid Snake would beat John-117 and Dante combined. He wouldn't need bio implants or powered armor either.

Champsguy
28-04-2008, 21:46
When I play Halo, Master Chief would have the following stats:

WS 1
BS 1
S 1
T 1
W 1
I 1
A 0
Ld 5

Roll at the beginning of the turn. On a 2+, Master Chief runs around in a circle as he attempts to find the right button on the control pad.

I suck at Halo.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-04-2008, 22:15
Mary Sue vs. Mary Sue versus thread... this is the worst idea ever.

I'm in.

Zephyr_Azure
29-04-2008, 00:50
Hi, long time lurker of Warseer. But an avid poster of Librarium-online. Just hoping to branch out.

We had this conversation on Librarium a while back and the census of the community over there agreed to stats like this.

WS4 BS4 S4 I4 W2 A2 T3 Ld 8 Sv 4+ Inv 5+.
Fearless
Countercharge
Infiltrate
Scout


Please comment if you don't agree with a certain stat or so. I'll provide my reasoning and see if I can't convince u otherwise.


But to save time. T3 should be leaning towards 3.5, S4 should be leaning towards 3.5, but 40k is a system of whole numbers.

And for a regular spartan, we just downed WS to 3 and lowered leadership by 1.

Marius Xerxes
29-04-2008, 00:59
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/samushalo.jpg

Samus Aran owns Master Chief

sabreu
29-04-2008, 01:06
Easy win button: Cortana.

She'll just slip into the 'cogitators' and disable the space marines. :P

DivineVisitor
29-04-2008, 01:08
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/samushalo.jpg

Samus Aran owns Master Chief

If you really want to see that then you should have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL-mR79GErU

Though it is a bit old now :D

Zephyr_Azure
29-04-2008, 01:22
Easy win button: Cortana.

She'll just slip into the 'cogitators' and disable the space marines. :P? Thats why the elite fighting forces of the Imperium aren't machines but man. The Emperor wanted to avoid using artificial intelligence because it may lead to the "Men of Iron" fiasco shortly before the age of strife.

Though it does pose an interesting question. Can one hack power armor and disable it, or is it only limited to communicators and UI systems? (outside necron technology magic, I'm not sure it can be done or else the tau need to start thinking about inventing something like an EMP to disable Imperial tech)

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 01:41
Hi, long time lurker of Warseer. But an avid poster of Librarium-online. Just hoping to branch out.

We had this conversation on Librarium a while back and the census of the community over there agreed to stats like this.

WS4 BS4 S4 I4 W2 A2 T3 Ld 8 Sv 4+ Inv 5+.
Fearless
Countercharge
Infiltrate
Scout


Please comment if you don't agree with a certain stat or so. I'll provide my reasoning and see if I can't convince u otherwise.


But to save time. T3 should be leaning towards 3.5, S4 should be leaning towards 3.5, but 40k is a system of whole numbers.

And for a regular spartan, we just downed WS to 3 and lowered leadership by 1.


I like these stats, although I would give him T4 (that titanium skeleton has to count for something!). Also, I have no problem with S4. Master Chief can flip a 6-ton Warthog over without breaking a sweat; he can jump 30 feet straight up despite weighing in at 1000 lbs...when he's in his armor at least, MC is as strong as a Space Marine. Close enough anyway.

Zephyr_Azure
29-04-2008, 01:53
I like these stats, although I would give him T4 (that titanium skeleton has to count for something!). Also, I have no problem with S4. Master Chief can flip a 6-ton Warthog over without breaking a sweat; he can jump 30 feet straight up despite weighing in at 1000 lbs...when he's in his armor at least, MC is as strong as a Space Marine. Close enough anyway.Yes the toughness was up for debate on the librarium thread. The reason I prefer 3 is to represent the fact that autocannons can one-shot MC. The autocannon is fairly equivalent to the scorpion tank main weapon and last time I checked getting shot by that cannon means "BLUE TEAM, 1. RED TEAM 0" Respawn in 5 seconds.

However, for ease of play, making him T4 gives u very close to scout stats. You can field an all spartan army using the SM Codex!

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 01:59
You can field an all spartan army using the SM Codex!


Cool, I got a bunch of Kasrkin laying around...I should do a conversion project!

Ehh, I'd probably get lynched at the game store...

talos935
29-04-2008, 02:01
? Thats why the elite fighting forces of the Imperium aren't machines but man. The Emperor wanted to avoid using artificial intelligence because it may lead to the "Men of Iron" fiasco shortly before the age of strife.

Though it does pose an interesting question. Can one hack power armor and disable it, or is it only limited to communicators and UI systems? (outside necron technology magic, I'm not sure it can be done or else the tau need to start thinking about inventing something like an EMP to disable Imperial tech)

EMP/Haywire grenades are about the only way to disable power armour short of sticking a cable in the back of it or damaging/destroying the power plant. Saying that the reverse would disable MC's shield...............hmmmmmm.......

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 02:20
Well, if MC is a special character, then he should be fighting a space marine special character, say like Dante. He has 1100 years of existence over the master chief and carries a meltagun pistol.

A 'normal space marine' doesn't get the plot armour of a special character so it's a bit redundant to compare them.

I'm not sure how they justify the MC hitting terminal velocity and slamming into the planet with no side affects - please say he uses some form of decelerator.

The best thing to do is to list on each side the equipment and qualities they both have, and then compare from there.

I don't know much about MC, so can someone list the upgrades/bionics/training/armour whatever so we can do an ACTUAL comparison?

Versus threads are fine if people stay objective. Compare and contrast, and then use the information revealed to assertain the 'superiority' of one over the other.

Hellebore

BigWeirdCreature
29-04-2008, 02:23
Im gonna have to go with a space marine for the win over MC. He's close to 70 at the end of H3, and fluff wise he struggles in close combat against brutes and elites. Not to mention at the end of H1 his body was shattered.

mistformsquirrel
29-04-2008, 02:30
In order to shave, Chuck Norris roundhousekicks himself in the face every morning, because the only thing capable of hurting Chuck Norris is Chuck Norris himself.


I know I will be hated for this, BUT, to me, Master Chief appears to be on Stormtrooper level (or perhaps Stormtrooper Sergeant) when compared to human 40k units. This thought originates from the fact that the PDF in 40k is equivalent of real world standing armies ala. the US and UK armies.

The best of the best from the PDF forces are taken to become the Imperial Guard. This means that we have the equivalents of SAS, Navy SEALS etc. etc. for the REGULAR Guardsmen.

The Elite of THOSE guys are brought in as Stormtroopers, and wouldn't suprise me if some of them have some slight gene-modifications etc.

So, if he's above that, he wouldn't be far above it at all, I'd say maybe stronger and quicker, but armour, skill and toughness-wise, he's about the same as an Imperial Stormtrooper.

My brain, you have copied it illegally! >.> Prepare for litigation combat!

(I'm kidding of course - I agree with you wholeheartedly!)

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 02:38
I don't know much about MC, so can someone list the upgrades/bionics/training/armour whatever so we can do an ACTUAL comparison?



Here you go


The SPARTAN program's bio-technical augmentations include, but are not limited to:

-Carbide ceramic ossification: advanced materials metal and ceramic layers, grafting onto skeletal structure to make bones virtually unbreakable.

-Muscular enhancement injections: protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time.

-Catalytic thyroid implant: platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues.

-Occipital capillary reversal: submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of subject’s retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase.

-Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites: alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject’s reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.





The combined modifications produced such effects such as:

-Capable of running at speeds exceeding 55 KPH (34.155 MPH). Master Chief was clocked at around 105 KPH (65.205 MPH) during a training exercise.
-Capable of lifting three times their body weight due to increased muscle density.
-Virtual night vision.
-Reaction times of 20 milliseconds. Significantly faster in combat situations.


These abilities were completely independent of the MJOLNIR armor, which only further augmented the Spartans' unprecedented capabilities.

shilfa
29-04-2008, 02:56
I don't know much about MC, so can someone list the upgrades/bionics/training/armour whatever so we can do an ACTUAL comparison?

Hellebore

Why of course.... here it is... the augmentation of SPARTANs

1. Carbide ceramic ossification: advanced material: special metal and ceramic layers, grafting onto skeletal structure to make bones virtually unbreakable. Recommended coverage not to exceed 3 percent total bone mass because of significant white blood cell necrosis. Specific risk for pre- and near-post pubescent adolescents: skeletal growth spurts may cause irreparable bone pulverization.

2. Muscular enhancement injections: protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time. Risk: 5 percent of test subjects experience a fatal cardiac volume increase.

3. Catalytic thyroid implant: platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues, suppressed sexual drive. Risk: rare instances of elephantiasis.

4. Occipital capillary reversal: submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of subject’s retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase. Risk: retinal rejection and detachment. Permanent blindness.

5. Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites: alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject’s reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity. Risk: significant instances of Parkinson’s disease and Fletcher’s syndrome.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Equipment:

SPARTAN ARMOR:

The suit augments neural ability, with slight commands becoming big motions with big results. It also allows for an AI to interface with the suit, acting as a layer between the suit and the brain. An AI interfacing with the suit provides improved response time, among other things.

The first version of this armor put into use was the MJOLNIR Mark IV, which Dr. Halsey tasked John's team to retrieve, as the Mark I-III armors were bulky exoskeletons that were required to be plugged to a generator. This entry-level version was rather primitive compared to newer incarnations, and because of conditions on Reach, spare parts were not available. Just before the Master Chief was deployed to Halo Installation 04, all available Spartans on Reach upgraded to the Mark V, which added an automatically-recharging energy shield (derived from Covenant Jackal shielding technology) to protect the wearer from initial damage (however, the shield will deplete after continuous or extensive stress and subsequently recharge when undisturbed).

After the events on Halo, the armor was changed again to the Mark VI. This latest armor is even more powerful, with a slightly more powerful shield, off-hand coordination enhancements that allow the wearer to wield two small weapons accurately, ammunition and heat tracking for said second weapon, and enhanced zoom capabilities using the helmet's visor. The suit was originally designed for use by unaugmented humans. Tests of this suit showed that the neural interface that allows the suit to move at a thought was too fast for an average human soldier, which proved fatal for the personnel inside, as shown when even the slightest movement caused the wearer's bones to shatter. When given to the Spartans it proved to be manageable.

The suit's codename MJOLNIR attests to this fact; in Norse mythology, Thor's hammer Mjolnir was too heavy to be carried by any but the strongest of body and mind. The Spartans quickly adapted to the suit and it is now an important addition to their arsenal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I won't put the details on the Space Marine armour or augmentation since IA/GW website should have them.

Honestly though, how could MC even win against Space Marine. Unless they gave him Plot Armor like 30 x as thick as my physics text book, MC should get pulverised brutally, decisively and completely.

There were arguments about this on filefront and halo wars forum back then (of course numerous other websites, but that's the only one i remembered). It's a consencus there, unless MC brings a nuke to the fight, SM will only come out barely wounded if at all. Put it this way.... you shot a shotgun to the face against MC.... what do you have? Dead MC. A Shotgun to the face for SM.... what do you have? An angry space marine, like TOTALLY angry, cuz you just scratched his paint job. And that's only the tip of the iceberg on SM superiority on MC.

A dude on the filefront forum even goes as far as to detail the scientific reasons on why MC fall flat. Honestly though, that's too much info to type :D.

I just gonna quote a dude on Halo Wars forum on the subject

"There's a difference between having the odds against you and taking on the covies than having the gods against you and taking on a space marine".

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 03:13
Alright, space marines have:

1 Secondary Heart 10-14 years Phases 1-3 can be introduced at the same time.
2 Ossmodula 10-12 years
3 Biscopea 10-12 years
4 Haemastamen 12-14 years Phases 4-5 can be introduced at the same time.
5 Larraman's organ12-13 years
6 Catalepsean node 14-17 years Hypnotherapy begins.
7 Preomnor 14-16 years Phases 7-9 are usually introduced simultaneously.
8 Omophagea 14-16 years
9 Multi-lung 14-16 years
10 Occulobe 14-16 years
11 Lyman's ear 14-16 years
12 Sus-an membrane 15-16 years
13 Melanochrome 15-16 years
14 Oolitic kidney 15-16 years Phases 14-15 may be introduced at the same time.
15 Neuroglottis 15-16 years
16 Mucranoid 16 years
17 Betcher's gland 16-17 years
18 Progenoids 16-18 years
19 Black Carapace 16-18 years Final implant.



-Carbide ceramic ossification: advanced materials metal and ceramic layers, grafting onto skeletal structure to make bones virtually unbreakable.


Ok, this sounds like the Ossmodula. GW never says what kind of ceramic goes into a marine's bones, but it is a ceramic. They aren't unbreakable though.



-Muscular enhancement injections: protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time.


The Biscopia is an equivalent sort of thing, although it increases muscle mass substantially. Also, someone mentioned that Spartans could kick tanks a good distance, how does that gel with 'lifting 3 times body weight'?

For reference, in the 40k RPG a space marine can carry ~675 kgs and lift 1350 kgs. This is about as close to an official lifting capacity as you can get. It is also what an unarmoured marine can lift, in their armour it goes up to 1350 kgs carrying and 2700 kgs lifting.



-Catalytic thyroid implant: platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues.


The ossmodula and biscopia both work this way, and produce a marine ~7' 6"



-Occipital capillary reversal: submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of subject’s retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase.


The Occulobe does the same sort of thing.



-Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites: alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject’s reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.


This one is a bit harder. It is pretty much unique to the Spartans. The space marine Lyman's Ear and occulobe work to prevent a marine losing their balance and increasing kinesthetic capacity. Marines can also tune in different frequencies.

The reaction time of a marine mainly comes from his hypno indoctrination.

Hmmm, some very similar abilities.

Hellebore

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 03:23
someone mentioned that Spartans could kick tanks a good distance, how does that gel with 'lifting 3 times body weight'?




The 3x body weight is what Master Chief can "lift" (whatever that means) without his armor.

So, if MC weighs about 300 lbs...uhhh, pounds to kilogram conversion...brain melting...then he should be able to "lift" about 408 kilos while standing around in street clothes.

Pretty far short of a Space Marine.

Champsguy
29-04-2008, 03:28
The 3x body weight is what Master Chief can "lift" (whatever that means) without his armor.

So, if MC weighs about 300 lbs...uhhh, pounds to kilogram conversion...brain melting...then he should be able to "lift" about 408 kilos while standing around in street clothes.

Pretty far short of a Space Marine.

Lifting 3x your body weight isn't that hot, if it means just pick it up off the ground. I mean, anybody who works out regularly should be able to do that. For it to be impressive, it needs to mean something more than simply "get off the ground and take a few steps".

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 03:39
For some real-world comparisons, here's a few world of the current world powerlifting records:

bench press - 476.3 kg (1,050 lb)
squat - 576 kg (1270 lbs)
deadlift - 455 kg (1003 lb)
clean and jerk - 266 kg (586.42 pounds)

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 03:40
So can a spartan kick a tank across the field? Someone was saying that they could. You'd need a lot more strength than 3x to be able to do that...

Hellebore

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 03:48
So can a spartan kick a tank across the field? Someone was saying that they could. You'd need a lot more strength than 3x to be able to do that...

Hellebore

I don't remember kicking a tank in any of the games...

MC can flip over a Warthog, which in-game schematics describe as weighing 4800 kg.

And he can shove a Scorpion tank (58,000 kg) a few feet by running into it, but that's probably due more to bad programming than anything else :rolleyes:

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 03:55
I don't remember kicking a tank in any of the games...

MC can flip over a Warthog, which in-game schematics describe as weighing 4800 kg.

And he can shove a Scorpion tank (58,000 kg) a few feet by running into it, but that's probably due more to bad programming than anything else :rolleyes:

So that would give him a lifting capacity of 4800 kgs IN armour yes? Do we know what kind of strength augmentation the armour gives? This is a lot higher than a space marine's lifting capacity at least using the RPG as a base (not necessarily the best example).

Although tipping isn't necessariy lifting it - I sure can't lift a coke fridge but I can tip one.

Hmmm...

hellebore

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 04:05
Yeah, tipping, or rolling, the Warthog over. He doesn't lift it above his head or anything.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any schematics or statistics that accurately describe MC's abilities in his armor. All we have is anecdotal evidence from in-game, which is pretty subjective.

Zephyr_Azure
29-04-2008, 04:25
Yeah, tipping, or rolling, the Warthog over. He doesn't lift it above his head or anything.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any schematics or statistics that accurately describe MC's abilities in his armor. All we have is anecdotal evidence from in-game, which is pretty subjective.
Plus you also have to consider the fact that the guys at Bungie didn't want a player to wait around for 5-10 minutes to lift the scorpion tank into the "right-side-up" position. So it had to be fairly instant. Same goes for warthog. Though I think a spartan could flip one right side up in less than 30 seconds.

TheOverlord
29-04-2008, 04:29
I'm sorry if I snapped, but I really did not like the blanket statement of me not knowing my own facts. I DO in fact know my facts, which is why I make my arguments. I never make arguments without facts.

I was comparing him to the game simply because we WERE talking about the game. Everything gets dumbed down in the TT, therefore whatever the fluff for master chief petty officer would be, he'd be at the very most, BS 4, as seen by the flurry of shots that he usually pumps out unless of course this is the console in which there is a built in auto aim system in it anyway.

And taking more than 3 enemies, Legendary mode most people struggle with that number, and in the 40k universe, you're facing orks, tyranids, guns that can tear a full rank of soldiers in half with a single burst, and what have you. There are fluff where Marines can get up after being trampled over by a Titan (mind you that was a Space Wolf) and where they can react so fast they can leap onto a mortal shell before the blossoming of the explosion.

Master Chief's fluff very closely corresponds with the Space Marine lore, but he would not 'Toast' any one of the in a one on one fight, where a Space Marine is trained from the very day of induction to be in.

Kicking a tank off a field? I'm getting a feeling that's more of an literary anecdotal example than anything else, much like most Space Marine stories. I wouldn't put it past one to actually kick a tank several feet, in which by itself it quite impressive, then again an Astartes doesn't actually have an occasion where one does find itself in need to kick a vehicle off the road, unless one part of a novel where a Space Marine actually lifted a truck off it's wheels and tossed it aside so another car could pass. Without breaking a sweat.

SO I guess comparing fluff is very hard, as both sides have few actual facts about the capabilities of the said characters. Both have cones which are far tougher than any normal human bone, (by the way, I didn't say it was encased or bonded with steel, I said it was strengthened to become LIKE steel, a very thick, solid hollow steel rod) and both have augmented muscular strength (However by the looks of it a Space Marine leads in this category) Training wise a Marine sleeps for 4 hours a day, and trains for the next 18 hours, 2 hours a day set aside for prayer to the Emperor and consuming nutrients, and they do it over the next 50 years (actually, they still do it till the day they die) until they are given the Black Carapace.

I'm all for Master Chief. I like the dude. But I wouldn't give him a chance in hell against a straight up fight with a Marine Commander, let's say, or a Chapter Master, but he'd be a good front-line officer.

Ps- Tipping the warthog would not equate to 4800kg, as you only handle a portion of it's weight if most of it is already nestled into the ground when you start tipping it, so in actually he'd only handle around 1000kg, like that, I guess. I'm no scientist though.

3 times the human weight without armor - If we count the average human weight to be... 80-90kgs, thats 270 kg. Someone mentioned a marine without armor can go up to a tonne?

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 04:34
needs a bolter and the whole space marine factor. maybe needs to be a bit taller?

.. He -is- a space marine. Master Chief just isn't a Space Marine. See the difference?

The Master Chief might have lighter armor but it's technologically more advanced than the 'Eagle' power armor, and the UNSC has more advanced technology than the Imperium does except in the way of warships and warp travel.

Comparison:
Master Chief has faced the daemons of Nurgle (the Flood), and toppled a religious covenant of species in the span of 3 years and come out victorious.

Space Marine Legions have grappled with Chaos for 10,000 years and haven't made a dent in it yet. They haven't really stopped any of the Xenos actions against the Imperium either.

Master Chief pwns.

I never thought I would see this debacle discussion on this forum. It's along the same lines of my cousin saying Solid Snake could pwn a Space Wolf. Yeah... I don't think so.

Besides, don't you know that the Master Chief and Leman Russ are really the same? ;)

Nazguire
29-04-2008, 04:56
.. He -is- a space marine. Master Chief just isn't a Space Marine. See the difference?

The Master Chief might have lighter armor but it's technologically more advanced than the 'Eagle' power armor, and the UNSC has more advanced technology than the Imperium does except in the way of warships and warp travel.

Comparison:
Master Chief has faced the daemons of Nurgle (the Flood), and toppled a religious covenant of species in the span of 3 years and come out victorious.

Space Marine Legions have grappled with Chaos for 10,000 years and haven't made a dent in it yet. They haven't really stopped any of the Xenos actions against the Imperium either.

Master Chief pwns.

I never thought I would see this debacle discussion on this forum. It's along the same lines of my cousin saying Solid Snake could pwn a Space Wolf. Yeah... I don't think so.

Besides, don't you know that the Master Chief and Leman Russ are really the same? ;)

Except that Master Chief has Plot Armour so thick even falling out of orbit could dent it....

TheOverlord
29-04-2008, 04:58
Somehow someone is forgetting the hundreds of thousands of humans that fought beside the Chief, non?

Plus, they could've made a dent into Chaos, had it been possible to actually INVADE the Eye. You forget, that is an ACTUAL impenetrable fortress, where entrance means insanity and worse, so they're DEFINITELY NOT going in there.

The Space Marines (at the start anyway) have single handedly conquered a million worlds for the Emperor (see, I can exclude the humans too!). Master Chief merely found an off switch for the Flood :p

And the Space Marines have wiped out more alien races that GW has yet to specify, IN THEIR HOMEWORLD EVEN! So no, Master Chief does NOT pwn. He just managed to fight off (with his many, many pals) a rather weak, religious (HAH! Compared to the chaos worshippers?) alien species, rather than innumerable hordes of aliens where the very act of fighting them creates even MORE of the buggers? I'd like to see the UNSC deal with Orks. They'd get swamped in day one, and master chief'll be a banner pole for Thraka the next.

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 05:04
Except that Master Chief has Plot Armour so thick even falling out of orbit could dent it....

He wasn't the only one to do that either. The first book of the Halo series has an entire SPARTAN-II team doing just that. Three are injured and two died because they landed in a forest.

According to your statement, it'd be more acceptable to match the Chief with a Primarch. That sounds fun to me.


Somehow someone is forgetting the hundreds of thousands of humans that fought beside the Chief, non?

Plus, they could've made a dent into Chaos, had it been possible to actually INVADE the Eye. You forget, that is an ACTUAL impenetrable fortress, where entrance means insanity and worse, so they're DEFINITELY NOT going in there.
I should amend that. Our Space Wolf brethren are constantly harassing the Great Enemy in his home environment.



The Space Marines (at the start anyway) have single handedly conquered a million worlds for the Emperor (see, I can exclude the humans too!). Master Chief merely found an off switch for the Flood :p

And the Space Marines have wiped out more alien races that GW has yet to specify, IN THEIR HOMEWORLD EVEN!

Likely many of those were dealt with via the meager cobbling of technology the Imperium actually has.


So no, Master Chief does NOT pwn. He just managed to fight off (with his many, many pals) a rather weak, religious (HAH! Compared to the chaos worshippers?) alien species, rather than innumerable hordes of aliens where the very act of fighting them creates even MORE of the buggers? I'd like to see the UNSC deal with Orks. They'd get swamped in day one, and master chief'll be a banner pole for Thraka the next.

Did I not just say the UNSC is not strong in its Spaceship-fu? I'd take an Imperial Lunar Cruiser over a UNSC Marathon Cruiser in a heartbeat, but a Scorpion Tank is probably an equal or superior match to a Leman Russ or Pedator.

Please do not try and write me off as a Halo fanboy. I haven't consistently played the game or read the books since I started 40k again. Since starting 40k, Halo lost some of its appeal to me.

Zephyr_Azure
29-04-2008, 05:09
.. He -is- a space marine. Master Chief just isn't a Space Marine. See the difference?

The Master Chief might have lighter armor but it's technologically more advanced than the 'Eagle' power armor, and the UNSC has more advanced technology than the Imperium does except in the way of warships and warp travel.

Comparison:
Master Chief has faced the daemons of Nurgle (the Flood), and toppled a religious covenant of species in the span of 3 years and come out victorious.

Space Marine Legions have grappled with Chaos for 10,000 years and haven't made a dent in it yet. They haven't really stopped any of the Xenos actions against the Imperium either.

Master Chief pwns.

I never thought I would see this debacle discussion on this forum. It's along the same lines of my cousin saying Solid Snake could pwn a Space Wolf. Yeah... I don't think so.

Besides, don't you know that the Master Chief and Leman Russ are really the same? ;)and that fact that flood does not compare at all to the power of Nurgle.
and the UNSC is backwards compared to the Imperial Guard (yes I said Imperial Guard, not even SM)

the Imperial Guard has a lasgun. Yes....its fairly crap on tabletop but it would own so much in reality. That thing can blow a limb clean off. And it runs on sunlight! That battle rifle has got nothing on it.

Also the Imperial Guard have lascannons, which are equivalent to a Spartan Laser.

And no, Mjolnir armor is inferior tech-wise to power armor. It is weaker and less protective. Please explain how its more advanced.....a shielding system does not beat ceramite. LAst time I checked a space marine could take an autocannon shot while MAster Chief dies from a simple "Charge plasma pistol, fire plasma pistol, fire pistol headshot".

The only thing Mjolnir armor has got on power armor is a neural interface for an AI. I'm sure the Imperium can do it (after all they got lasguns), but its deemed heretical by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 05:17
and that fact that flood does not compare at all to the power of Nurgle.
and the UNSC is backwards compared to the Imperial Guard (yes I said Imperial Guard, not even SM)

the Imperial Guard has a lasgun. Yes....its fairly crap on tabletop but it would own so much in reality. That thing can blow a limb clean off. And it runs on sunlight! That battle rifle has got nothing on it.

And the Lasgun is also equal to the old-school AUTOGUN! Pretty sure the battle rifle can pwn an M-16 knockoff.



Also the Imperial Guard have lascannons, which are equivalent to a Spartan Laser. Based on the game statistics, Lascannons don't hold a candle to the Spartan Laser. If they do, it's because of the firing rate. That's it.



And no, Mjolnir armor is inferior tech-wise to power armor. It is weaker and less protective. Please explain how its more advanced.....a shielding system does not beat ceramite. LAst time I checked a space marine could take an autocannon shot while MAster Chief dies from a simple "Charge plasma pistol, fire plasma pistol, fire pistol headshot".

Lost a lot of Xbox Live matches, haven't you? Space marines don't benefit from the crystal lace network, the impact-cusioning gel layer or advanced motion sensors. Last time I checked, the Emporer's chosen can't dodge a bullet. Spartan-II's can anticipate and move as needed. Their armor is not bulky and awkward. It streamlines them and makes them faster and more agile than a front-liner like an Astartes. It's one thing to -take- a shot, but it's another thing to dodge it entirely.



The only thing Mjolnir armor has got on power armor is a neural interface for an AI. I'm sure the Imperium can do it (after all they got lasguns), but its deemed heretical by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

And the UNSC has a Spartan Laser. And MAC guns, and SUPER Mac guns, and more advanced AI and more innovative people.

TheOverlord
29-04-2008, 06:04
A lasgun has a 3000 round clip, each round is capable of killing a man with a single shot. So no, it's not just an m16, it's a 3000 round m16 that carries 50 calibre pistol rounds (like the new m4 :D)

Where exactly CAN'T space marines dodge bullets? If they can land onto a mortar even before it starts to explore, they can definitely dodge bullets. Space Marine armor is not just bulky and unwieldy. Of course it is in a normal human being, but to an Astartes, it's like wearing a second skin. Only it breathes better. And you don't need to dodge things that can't hurt you anyway :P No advanced motion sensors, explain to me what Auto-sensors are again? I seem to forget whether or not a SPARTAN is actually just a Space Marine rip-off, just with better design.

You aren't painting yourself to be a Halo fanboy, but you are painting yourself to be rather arrogant. Not sure you meant to be that way, but you are.

And your space wolf brethren? Yeah... you're a human... they're... fictional. Try not to get too carried away.

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 06:16
Actually, according to the 40k RPG a lasgun has a 60 round charge pack. It can however be recharged on any power outlet (the weaker the output the longer the time taken to recharge).

Can we get back to a comparative analysis of the different features of a marine compared to a spartan please?

Using the MC's prowess in the story has no real bearing on the background because he was protected by GM fiat.

Unless of course you want to argue that a tau fire warrior can single handedly wipe out entire chapters of marines and take on greater daemons single handedly...

Hellebore

Nazguire
29-04-2008, 06:24
He wasn't the only one to do that either. The first book of the Halo series has an entire SPARTAN-II team doing just that. Three are injured and two died because they landed in a forest.

According to your statement, it'd be more acceptable to match the Chief with a Primarch. That sounds fun to me.


Actually my statement didn't have anything to do with that.:confused:

Yes, three are injured and two died...were they the Master Chief? Nope. He has Bungie Plot Armour 3000. Nothing can penetrate it save Bungie's Head Design Programmer Person.

Because how boring a game would that be? You turn on Halo 3's first mission, Master Chief falls to Earth at many times the speed of sound, crash lands on hard rock and splatters all over the area. Turn off the game.

The sole reason there were other SPARTANs in those books (which I have read) was to show how hardcore Master Chief was. Plot armour.

The Primarchs are a different kettle of fish to SPARTANs. There aren't any similarities as they aren't comparable to they type of soldier Master Chief or the Astartes are.

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 06:34
And your space wolf brethren? Yeah... you're a human... they're... fictional. Try not to get too carried away.

I don't recall ever breaking such a barrier. Unlike some youngsters, I can differentiate, and I am not the only one to say such a phrase in the way that I did.

TheOverlord
29-04-2008, 06:35
Heh, actually, he wouldn't break the speed of sound. No matter how high up you are, you never move faster than your maximum velocity speed (depending on gravity, of course) so for all we know he only needs to be able to withstand re-entry and the impact of maximum velocity, to survive a fall of any height.

Hellebore - Yeah, I find that kinda weird too. According to the IG codex, their lasgun has the capacity of 3000 rounds, each with are lethal bolts *shrugs* Inconsistencies ftw!

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 06:38
Where exactly CAN'T space marines dodge bullets?

Show your reference and then I will believe.

Nazguire
29-04-2008, 06:41
A lasgun has a 3000 round clip, each round is capable of killing a man with a single shot. So no, it's not just an m16, it's a 3000 round m16 that carries 50 calibre pistol rounds (like the new m4 :D)

Where exactly CAN'T space marines dodge bullets? If they can land onto a mortar even before it starts to explore, they can definitely dodge bullets. Space Marine armor is not just bulky and unwieldy. Of course it is in a normal human being, but to an Astartes, it's like wearing a second skin. Only it breathes better. And you don't need to dodge things that can't hurt you anyway :P No advanced motion sensors, explain to me what Auto-sensors are again? I seem to forget whether or not a SPARTAN is actually just a Space Marine rip-off, just with better design.

You aren't painting yourself to be a Halo fanboy, but you are painting yourself to be rather arrogant. Not sure you meant to be that way, but you are.

And your space wolf brethren? Yeah... you're a human... they're... fictional. Try not to get too carried away.

IIRC the story that reference the mortar shell described the Marine smothering the shell before it exploded, not seeing it hit the ground and diving on top of it before the split-second it would take to detonate happened. A shell hitting the ground is a lot slower then a speeding bullet the length and width of your finger firing from a gun.

mongoosedog300
29-04-2008, 06:58
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MJOLNIR

I come bearing gifts, My favorite line for the Mark IV entry is "The armor also provides almost complete immunity from ballistic firearms"

Also http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Spartan_II
And about those weight lifting records before, what were the weight of the men actually lifting those weights?

Hrogoff the Destructor
29-04-2008, 07:02
and that fact that flood does not compare at all to the power of Nurgle.

The forerunner had the technology to wipe out the Imperium in a day, and they lost to the flood (well, I guess not in the long run).

If the flood were unleashed on an ork planet, all of the races in the 41st mellenium would be doomed in just a couple thousand years.

LoneSniperSG
29-04-2008, 07:48
I'd wager Nurgle would find a way to bend the Flood to his control.

Müller
29-04-2008, 08:06
"Lone Sniper"...
Since you go into the whole "based off game statistics" thing I'd have to say that yes, a M16A4 would in 9 cases out of 10 be better than the Battle Rifle... because the Battle Rifle is utter crap (true)... The Battle Rifle wouldn't even damage Power Armor...
And sure, the spartan armor gives you the possobility to dodge bullets, but the projectiles that comes his their way is NOTHING compared to that the Power Armor faces, the power armor would just laugh at the ammunition coming it's way...

You're also forgetting ho a Space Marine would continue to fight his enemy against all odds with both legs and one of his arms blown right off, as long as he has a weapon in the other hand he will kill to the extent possible for him, while master chief would've been wasted in a heartbeat...

You want to compare what the Master Chief does (on his own) then compare him to, say, uriel ventris... he's got NOTHING on Uriel...

Koryphaus
29-04-2008, 08:07
IIRC the story that reference the mortar shell described the Marine smothering the shell before it exploded, not seeing it hit the ground and diving on top of it before the split-second it would take to detonate happened.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. You've said he smothered it, but that he didn't see it hit the ground and dive on it before he exploded. Which bit are you going with? Did he smother it or not?

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 11:04
That makes absolutely no sense at all. You've said he smothered it, but that he didn't see it hit the ground and dive on it before he exploded. Which bit are you going with? Did he smother it or not?

The reason it makes no sense is that it was originally a RT story where a MOLE MORTAR drills up through the ground amidst the squad.

Draeg jumps on the bulge to protect the squad.

They then changed it to remove the mole mortar and make it an ordinary mortar without changing the physics of the story...

Hellebore

Hostilius
29-04-2008, 18:43
Seriously guys, halo and 40k are not on the same timeline. You cannot say that the MC uses technology from the dark age, it makes no sense at all.

Well, in a way Halo Universe and Warhammer 40k did share a same time
line. Both Halo and Warhammer 40k are centered on futuristic Earth (Terra). The only difference is the period of time which the event of Halo and Warhammer 40k took place. Halo series began at year 2552 (Halo: Combat Evolve) while Warhammer 40k setting began at year 29700 (Rise of the Emperor).

However I found out through wikipedia that Dark Age of Technology began at 15th millennium, long after the events of Halo. So we can settle that Master Chief did not use technology from the Dark Age.

EDIT: Oh and also on Wikipedia, I see that Master Chief is fits the definition of "Space Marine". Hell, even the Imperial Guard trooper is a space marine if we follow strictly the definition of "space marine". However, I'd stress that it dosent make them Adeptus Astartes.

So we can conclude that Master Chief and his fellow SPARTANS ARE space marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines

His Divine Light
29-04-2008, 18:59
People seem to forget one important thing about Master Chief... his luck. Both Cortana and Dr. Hasley (leader of the SPARTAN Project) has pointed this out in both the games and the books. Nothing beats luck ;)

Besides, if you want to compare Imperial Stormtroopers to something, compare them to these guys: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/ODST They are one step above the normal marines, but not as good as Master Chief.

Col. Tartleton
29-04-2008, 20:28
I'd still rather be a Spartan than an Astartes.

Out of armor MC would kill any marine. In armor the Astartes have the advantage by far.

However, MC is designed to be more like an D-99 Trooper in my opinion. And the troops he serves with are straight up elysian (look at the frikken helmets.

MC has a weapon selection more like IG elites than Astartes and his armor is probably like a Carapace armor with refractor field and the level of augmentation he has is more like surgical enhancements and bionics as from the IG rules.

His sword is a Lascutter and his battle rifle is a Hellgun.

Thats about as close as I will go in armorments.

A bolter is like the Brute rifle that shoots the 'nades in strength.

Klomster
29-04-2008, 20:31
Regarding theese arguments and "Facts" i have come to this conclusion.

I'd say master chief is the equal of, an imperial assassin.
Maybe a mix between Vindicare and eversor, vin for aim, eve for speed (eversors has to be insanely fast)

Both Assassins and the chief has bullet dodging skills, extreme aim (i base this of the mc vs samus vid), and speed, Assassins are tough and have good armour that is very streamlined.
But if 1 or 2 bolter shells hit it! Wasted! That's why they need to dodge.

I read in the codex assassins pdf i found that a vindicare succeded in taking out multiple ork gargants, 1 warboss and half of the camp. (Regarding the presence of gargants, it must have been big)
He only got a 75% complete on the mission though as not all the orks were taken out.

Conclusion, MC in mjolnir will be equal to a Death cult meets Vindicare assassin for me in skill.

Anyone disagree?

Astartes are supertough, warrior killing machines, made for walking trough heavy enemy fire, destroying a flank, and take out all important stuff insade the base.

They are far more stronger than assassins and weedy master chiefs.

The assassin is made for sneaking in, striking at the heart of the foe and dissapear.

Or in the case of eversors..... "-You see this hive? The top is corrupted, can you take it out? It's only 6-8000 people!"

Master chief seems like a nice character, but huge fanboyism have made me hate him!
Stop fanboy, give facts, i'd say mc is assassin'ish, and i'm nice!

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 21:14
One of the main problems with this comparison is that the fluff from both Halo and 40k universes is so internally inconsistent.

Can Master Chief beat a Space Marine? Well, which Space Marine? The Astartes in this book/game/article/whatever can shrug off dozens of hits from automatic cannon fire, and yet the Marines in that book/game/article/etc had their armor damaged by starving mutants armed with crude axes.

You get the same problem with Master Chief: MC has the strength and structural integrity to punch through the front armor of a Wraith tank...and yet, somehow, his armor is fragile enough to be perforated by small caliber submachinegun rounds.

Makes for a tough comparison. In the end, I think it all comes down to the reader's (or player's) opinion. And in my worthless opinion, Master Chief could take a Scout or Neophyte without much trouble. I think he could take out a single Space Marine, or perhaps several in the right tactical situation. But the big ubers, like Helbrecht and Calgar and the like, would clean Master Chief's clock.

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-04-2008, 21:15
Lifting 3x your body weight isn't that hot, if it means just pick it up off the ground. I mean, anybody who works out regularly should be able to do that. For it to be impressive, it needs to mean something more than simply "get off the ground and take a few steps".

Granted I'm fairly built (oh noes, Internet tough guyz alert!), but at about 180 lbs I have been able to (given a sufficiently rigorous lifting program) squat about 500 lbs (495 to get down to brass tacks). And while I've been an intense athlete in the past, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's what I would expect out of a Spartan or Marine. Three times your own weight, given an even spread of it, isn't exactly superhuman. So the guys at Bungie might want to check their stuff.


Plus you also have to consider the fact that the guys at Bungie didn't want a player to wait around for 5-10 minutes to lift the scorpion tank into the "right-side-up" position. So it had to be fairly instant. Same goes for warthog. Though I think a spartan could flip one right side up in less than 30 seconds.

Yeah, the whole flipping tanks thing is for game balance too. I think that needs to be brought into perspective.

Klomster
29-04-2008, 22:02
Wonder what that is in kilos.....

DivineVisitor
29-04-2008, 22:25
How exactly is power armour superior to Mjolnir Mark VI again?

Both greatly increase strength and speed, both are very tough. Though Power Armour is occasionally penetrated by small arms fire in most the novels however Mjolnir Armour is supposedly immune to small arms fire and resists plasma weaponry that basically all Covenant weapons are based on aswell as being able to take virtually no or minimal damage from falling at terminal velocity and has a regenerating shield.

I mean are people saying power armour is better just because? Or are there some concrete facts that show the Mjolnir Mark VI as inferior?

Think i agree with Klomster's assessment of The Chief being around the Assassin level. Seems like a fair approximation to me, seeing as how they are also super enhanced humans that are all together badass.

Il need to read some of these novels and see what the guy's capable of hehe.

kikkoman
29-04-2008, 23:12
a space marine would win, because space marines look cooler


and MC looks like the grunts you blow away in Contra. Very generic. That is his appeal though, which is its own kind of cool.

Zephyr_Azure
30-04-2008, 00:14
How exactly is power armour superior to Mjolnir Mark VI again?

Both greatly increase strength and speed, both are very tough. Though Power Armour is occasionally penetrated by small arms fire in most the novels however Mjolnir Armour is supposedly immune to small arms fire and resists plasma weaponry that basically all Covenant weapons are based on aswell as being able to take virtually no or minimal damage from falling at terminal velocity and has a regenerating shield.

I mean are people saying power armour is better just because? Or are there some concrete facts that show the Mjolnir Mark VI as inferior?

Think i agree with Klomster's assessment of The Chief being around the Assassin level. Seems like a fair approximation to me, seeing as how they are also super enhanced humans that are all together badass.

Il need to read some of these novels and see what the guy's capable of hehe.First thing I must note is that yes the mjolnir armor in fluff is immune to small arms fire (2525 century small arms...not too much of an advancement from today in the form of more damaging bullets), but the plasma weaponry resistance is overstated. In the novels, a single shot from a banshee or ghost drains the shields down, a single salvo of plasma rifle shots do the same. Basically, the suit can take 5-6 shots of a standard small-arm plasma weapon before the shields fail.

However the proving point that shows Mjolnir armor as weaker is the fact that the scorpion main cannon will kill a spartan outright. That cannon is fairly equivalent to the autocannon in 40k. (comparing to see if its worse yields nothing, GW fluff states that the autocannon is fairly equivalent to the main tank cannons of today, the scorpion tank has not proven to be any stronger.

Quoted from Halopedia: Scorpion Tank Weaponry

Its cannon, a 90mm piece, also appears weak when compared to modern MBT armaments: the M1 Abrams tank, for example, can mount either a 105mm or 120mm cannon. Alternatively, the 90mm cannon could be the "light" variant of the M808, while a 105mm cannon can be mounted for greater offensive power[13], an incident which has indeed been recorded.


And from GW fluff and on table-top, autocannon shells cannot penetrate SM power armor. Thus showing that power armor is superior to mjolnir armor.
To counter the fact that small arms down SM....there are obviously weak points and that small arms in the future of 40k include power knives/bayonets, chainswords, and lasguns (its a scary weapon compared to modern firearms....just not scary in the future when every race has something even more devastating)

To counter the terminal velocity argument is that the "lockdown mode" on mjolnir suits as demonstrated in Halo 3, literally impairs your ability to move or fight for a good while after landing. Space marines get up afterwards and get to killing, no resting for them.

The lockdown mode was not implemented in the "First Strike" novel cause it did not have that feature at the time so the freefall spartans of red team only could rely on hydrostatic gel density hardening to survive. Even then, Fred quotes that hitting through those trees felt like a "full clip of an assault rifle to the abdomen". 4 ended up dying and a few more seriously injured to impair movement. Power armor is meant to take tank shells, weapons that have the ability to destroy and level buildings. The momentum and impact behind the shell is much stronger than a freefall into trees even at that height.

Also, take a look at the metal debris next to the landing site. As quoted from Halopedia....

Contrary to what players might think, the Master Chief did not land on Earth using just his MJOLNIR armor as protection. At the other end of the crater is a metallic object, suggesting the Chief ripped it out of the Dreadnaught and rode it down to Earth. Also, the metallic object appears to be a balcony or platform of some sort due to the support bracing on one side.

this supports MC though that its not "plot armor" that he survived re-entry into the atmosphere.


I'm not sure if I missed anything, but I argue that mjolnir armor cannot even begin to compare to power armor yet....until spartans start surviving direct shots from a tank's main cannon.

Koryphaus
30-04-2008, 00:35
The reason it makes no sense is that it was originally a RT story where a MOLE MORTAR drills up through the ground amidst the squad.

Draeg jumps on the bulge to protect the squad.

They then changed it to remove the mole mortar and make it an ordinary mortar without changing the physics of the story...

Hellebore

Right! Ok, now I get it..

Koryphaus
30-04-2008, 00:45
Out of armor MC would kill any marine. In armor the Astartes have the advantage by far.


So is MC out of his armour, or the SM, or both? If only the marine is out of his armour, its not a fair comparison.

If the marine isn't wearing his, and MC is, then MC wins.
If they're both out of armour, the SM wins.
If MC wasn't wearing his armour, and the marine is, then no contest.

Anyway I reckon that the SM wins, because they're awesome, and its a 40k forum. If this was a Halo forum, then the chief would probably win.

kikkoman
30-04-2008, 00:50
So is MC out of his armour, or the SM, or both? If only the marine is out of his armour, its not a fair comparison.

If the marine isn't wearing his, and MC is, then MC wins.
If they're both out of armour, the SM wins.


now, are they greased up too?

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-04-2008, 01:01
now, are they greased up too?

No. *Hits Kikkoman on the nose with a newspaper* No!

Put your nose in it!

Koryphaus
30-04-2008, 02:15
now, are they greased up too?

Look out, its that greased up deaf guy! I can just picture it now... The MC and the SM are both running around saying "You're never gonna get me!" in a high pitched voice...

Müller
30-04-2008, 10:22
How exactly is power armour superior to Mjolnir Mark VI again?

Both greatly increase strength and speed, both are very tough. Though Power Armour is occasionally penetrated by small arms fire in most the novels however Mjolnir Armour is supposedly immune to small arms fire and resists plasma weaponry that basically all Covenant weapons are based on aswell as being able to take virtually no or minimal damage from falling at terminal velocity and has a regenerating shield.

I mean are people saying power armour is better just because? Or are there some concrete facts that show the Mjolnir Mark VI as inferior?

Think i agree with Klomster's assessment of The Chief being around the Assassin level. Seems like a fair approximation to me, seeing as how they are also super enhanced humans that are all together badass.

Il need to read some of these novels and see what the guy's capable of hehe.

The thing you're missing in that statement is that small arms fire in the Halo universe is low-caliber munitions very similar to what is used today, whereas in the 40K universe small arms ire is most of the time bolter rounds, HUGE casless rounds which detonate on impact, blowing limbs clean off, similar to certain .50 CAL projectiles we use today...

Oh and someone mentioned that unsuited MC would kick SMs asses I have to disagree strongly... what makes MC keep going is his armor, whereas in numerous novels around the 40K universe marines have fought even the greatest of enemies with them stripped of heir armor, hell, even with lost limbs on top of that...

just the mere sight of an Adeptus Astartes have even broken up riots involving thousands and thousands of rioters, when power mauls and huge water cannons wouldnt do the trick.. that alone says what beasts of men adeptus astartes really are....

I say put master chief up against Pasanius (The Ultramarine from the 4th Company who is a personal friend with their company commander, Uriel Ventris).. he'd snap master chief's neck without breaking sweat

DivineVisitor
30-04-2008, 11:08
First thing I must note is that yes the mjolnir armor in fluff is immune to small arms fire (2525 century small arms...not too much of an advancement from today in the form of more damaging bullets), but the plasma weaponry resistance is overstated. In the novels, a single shot from a banshee or ghost drains the shields down, a single salvo of plasma rifle shots do the same. Basically, the suit can take 5-6 shots of a standard small-arm plasma weapon before the shields fail.

However the proving point that shows Mjolnir armor as weaker is the fact that the scorpion main cannon will kill a spartan outright. That cannon is fairly equivalent to the autocannon in 40k. (comparing to see if its worse yields nothing, GW fluff states that the autocannon is fairly equivalent to the main tank cannons of today, the scorpion tank has not proven to be any stronger.

Quoted from Halopedia: Scorpion Tank Weaponry

Its cannon, a 90mm piece, also appears weak when compared to modern MBT armaments: the M1 Abrams tank, for example, can mount either a 105mm or 120mm cannon. Alternatively, the 90mm cannon could be the "light" variant of the M808, while a 105mm cannon can be mounted for greater offensive power[13], an incident which has indeed been recorded.


And from GW fluff and on table-top, autocannon shells cannot penetrate SM power armor. Thus showing that power armor is superior to mjolnir armor.
To counter the fact that small arms down SM....there are obviously weak points and that small arms in the future of 40k include power knives/bayonets, chainswords, and lasguns (its a scary weapon compared to modern firearms....just not scary in the future when every race has something even more devastating)

To counter the terminal velocity argument is that the "lockdown mode" on mjolnir suits as demonstrated in Halo 3, literally impairs your ability to move or fight for a good while after landing. Space marines get up afterwards and get to killing, no resting for them.

The lockdown mode was not implemented in the "First Strike" novel cause it did not have that feature at the time so the freefall spartans of red team only could rely on hydrostatic gel density hardening to survive. Even then, Fred quotes that hitting through those trees felt like a "full clip of an assault rifle to the abdomen". 4 ended up dying and a few more seriously injured to impair movement. Power armor is meant to take tank shells, weapons that have the ability to destroy and level buildings. The momentum and impact behind the shell is much stronger than a freefall into trees even at that height.

Also, take a look at the metal debris next to the landing site. As quoted from Halopedia....

Contrary to what players might think, the Master Chief did not land on Earth using just his MJOLNIR armor as protection. At the other end of the crater is a metallic object, suggesting the Chief ripped it out of the Dreadnaught and rode it down to Earth. Also, the metallic object appears to be a balcony or platform of some sort due to the support bracing on one side.

this supports MC though that its not "plot armor" that he survived re-entry into the atmosphere.


I'm not sure if I missed anything, but I argue that mjolnir armor cannot even begin to compare to power armor yet....until spartans start surviving direct shots from a tank's main cannon.

That's the kind of points i was looking for :)
Thank you.

Brother Enok
30-04-2008, 19:39
To me master Chief comes off as a massive Marty/mary SUe.

OH! hes the last of his kind...and he can fall from orbit and still fight! and he has regenerating shields...and he can fight armies...and he can punch tanks...and he knows how to use every weapon...and hes really old but can still fight.

Meh, marines have more character in my humble opinion. MC is just an action hero.

LoneSniperSG
01-05-2008, 04:48
.... Someone tell me if the Astartes power armor has an interior cushioning layer.

(Chief is also -not- the last of his kind. There are others that survived Reach's glassing)



I say put master chief up against Pasanius (The Ultramarine from the 4th Company who is a personal friend with their company commander, Uriel Ventris).. he'd snap master chief's neck without breaking sweat

..And Leman Russ can snap Uriel Ventris' neck without breaking a sweat. But what does that prove?

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 05:22
.... Someone tell me if the Astartes power armor has an interior cushioning layer.

(Chief is also -not- the last of his kind. There are others that survived Reach's glassing)



..And Leman Russ can snap Uriel Ventris' neck without breaking a sweat. But what does that prove?


Leman Russ is a Primarch, completely different to a Space Marine. Pasanius is just an average joe blow Ultramarines (albeit with slightly less Plot Armour then Master Chief, he did have his arm torn off)

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-05-2008, 08:34
.... Someone tell me if the Astartes power armor has an interior cushioning layer.

It would make sense... oh wait. This is GW fluff we're talking about. By that we can surmise that the inside of power armor is like an Iron Maiden (not the band) made of broken glass and shattered dreams.

Müller
01-05-2008, 09:27
By that we can surmise that the inside of power armor is like an Iron Maiden (not the band) made of broken glass and shattered dreams.


ROFL:D

And yeah "Lone", a Primarch has really no place in this discussion what-so-ever, we're talking standard marine vs. MC... Pasanius is just that, but he's *******' huge (to build an armor for him the techpriests even had to use some parts from a broken terminator armour) he's one of the biggest Adeptus Astartes ever, but still only a marine, and there's no doubt that he'd kill MC outright in either HtH combat without armor or with weaponry and armor on..

RCgothic
01-05-2008, 11:11
A Space marine is genetically engineered far beyond a spartan, has a weapon that can 4-round burst .75 calibre armour piercing grenades as standard, and armour that can withstand multiple 120mm HE cannon shots to the chest.

In Deus Encarmine Arkio jumps off a skyscraper and lands without a dent, either to him or his armour. As in an atomosphere 99% of terminal velocity is reached after 15 seconds or 90% after 8 seconds, a Spartan orbit-jumping wouldn't land much faster, and it can be argued that a Space Marine is bigger and heavier and therefore has a higher terminal velocity.

Why is there even an arguement here?

sabreu
01-05-2008, 11:22
Because Master Chief and Space Marines in general are made from raw bad ass and mary sueism? Besides, in a world where children can destroy an Eldar vehicle with rocks and it's possible for cultist to pommel space marines to death with their fists (even in armour), there's plenty of room of comparison. :p

P.S. Arkio was in the Matrix...

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 16:01
Because Master Chief and Space Marines in general are made from raw bad ass and mary sueism? Besides, in a world where children can destroy an Eldar vehicle with rocks and it's possible for cultist to pommel space marines to death with their fists (even in armour), there's plenty of room of comparison. :p

P.S. Arkio was in the Matrix...

I personally can't think of any Space Marine that has the amount of unrealistic plot armour and writer's protection the Master Chief has.

Are we forgetting something here? When you fall from orbit, you're FALLING FROM ORBIT. It doesn't matter how much you weigh and whether or not you'll reach terminal velocity in 8 seconds on a good day. You're falling from ORBIT. You go splat. No exceptions. Except Master Chief. Who has armour that may be good, but isn't that good as to protect him from falling from orbit. I'm sorry, I just can't believe that realistically (realistically, considering the subject matter of course) anyone can do that without having a healthy dose of 'plot armour'.

Brother Enok
01-05-2008, 16:06
wouldn't falling from orbit and falling from a skyscaper be the same once you reach terminal velocity?

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 16:13
I'm no expert at physics or whatever, but the difference between falling from a skyscraper (maybe a kilometer high or so) and orbits (hundreds of kilometers) is that you heat up, quickly and to a mega-hot degree. So he cooks alive on the way down (this heat burns up meteors..) and when he hits, whatever is left goes splat all over the country side...

But it didn't happen that way did it...

And please don't say that the 'gel-cushioning layer' prevented the heat from killing him, or his air conditioning in his helmet. That's even more unlikely.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 16:23
You do realize that the record holder for surviving the highest fall was 33,000 feet? That's no armour, power or plot. If a simple flight attendant can survive that height i think the room for suspension of disbelief is pretty wide.

Not to mention the Master Chief didn't fall from outside Orbit, despite previous posters statements. He was already in orbit riding the debris of the ship he was on and seperated once in earth atmosphere. So he wouldn't 'burn up' as you would expect.

Halo Shortfilm from XBOX live (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxxVTUwwFto)
Halo 3 Opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfdBoPEU9bY)

Klomster
01-05-2008, 16:29
Of course the ac in his helmet saved him.

It's like the fan keeping my computer cool, it must be able too.....

No wait, 3 of those can't even keep my computer below 36*c.


I'd say if you drop a mc without plot armour from orbit, he'd go *Splut* (Not splatt *Splutt*)
If you'd drop a marine without plot armour, KERRUNNCH!!! If you go check it, you might have dreadnought material left, if you are lucky.
(I think there was a novel or something with a dark angel falling drom orbit when his armour shut down and he had floated around in space for a month or so, but i'm not sure, anyway, he must have had plot armour)

Master chief aint an adeptus astartes, he is a space marine, but not an adeptus astartes.

Those vids are pretty cool, too bad xbox fanboyism and gw awesomeness made me dislike halo.

RCgothic
01-05-2008, 16:53
Air conditioning is not just a fan. It's a thermodynamic cycle that transports heat from one part of the system (eg the suit) to the radiator (backpack). We have industrial AC units that can create a temperature difference of hundreds of degrees, so it isn't that implausible.

In addition, whilst something falling from orbit would have to endure the heat caused by friction, by the time he reached the lower atmospher a small object would have slowed to the terminal velocity that said air-hostess survived.

Also, a suit of Power armour is plated with Ceramite, which is what they coat thunderhawks with and they can survive re-entry. I think the problem would be the weak joints, such as knees, elbows and neck. The plasma of re-entry would find and sever the extremities as it cut through these weak points, and that would be what would lead to death, not failure of the AC (marines fight in lava world environments) nor the impact.

Given a piece of debris or a disposable heat shield I don't see why Space Marines couldn't orbital skydive. The biggest problem with using this method over a drop pod would be scatter from intended DZ.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
01-05-2008, 23:53
Three times your own weight, given an even spread of it, isn't exactly superhuman. So the guys at Bungie might want to check their stuff.

Bear in mind that, according to fluff, MC weighs at least 1,500 lbs. Why he doesn't crack floors and shatter furniture I can't quite fathom...


I say put master chief up against Pasanius (The Ultramarine from the 4th Company who is a personal friend with their company commander, Uriel Ventris).. he'd snap master chief's neck without breaking sweat

I imagine having an arm made of Necron would help, but that's about how I see it. MC is cool, but he's no Asteres.
Nothing is cool like Asteres. Except Ford Perfect.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-05-2008, 01:52
Bear in mind that, according to fluff, MC weighs at least 1,500 lbs. Why he doesn't crack floors and shatter furniture I can't quite fathom...

Same deal for Space Marines. They apparently weigh in at a ton or something in their armor, more for Termies and those dudes with the back banners. :p Apparently they know how to walk softly and carry a big bolter.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 02:58
Same deal for Space Marines. They apparently weigh in at a ton or something in their armor, more for Termies and those dudes with the back banners. :p Apparently they know how to walk softly and carry a big bolter.

Kudos to the Dawn of War reference.

Col. Tartleton
02-05-2008, 05:22
What I was saying earlier, about without armor is that if MC and a SM were naked and armed with just a knife, I think MC would win. If you can dodge a bullet then you can dodge a dodge ball.. I mean knife thrust.

The marine would probably win in any situation though. However, MC is more like a Veteran Lostok Gland Warrior in carapace for game ability, armed with a hell gun. That is MC. If that unit can kill a marine (unlikely but possible) then MC can kill a marine by being a sneaky fellow. (in game that is)

legio mortis
02-05-2008, 05:29
The marine would probably win in any situation though. However, MC is more like a Veteran Lostok Gland Warrior in carapace for game ability, armed with a hell gun. That is MC. If that unit can kill a marine (unlikely but possible) then MC can kill a marine by being a sneaky fellow. (in game that is)
How does he have a hellgun? He's equipped with an Autogun.

Koryphaus
02-05-2008, 05:51
Wow. This thread has gone on far longer than I though it would...

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 06:46
What I was saying earlier, about without armor is that if MC and a SM were naked and armed with just a knife, I think MC would win. If you can dodge a bullet then you can dodge a dodge ball.. I mean knife thrust.

The marine would probably win in any situation though. However, MC is more like a Veteran Lostok Gland Warrior in carapace for game ability, armed with a hell gun. That is MC. If that unit can kill a marine (unlikely but possible) then MC can kill a marine by being a sneaky fellow. (in game that is)

Depends on how he wants to try and stab the Marine. Seeing as most cuts would instantly clot, his rib cage is protected by a wall of ossified bone (apparently) and his muscles are stronger then steel, I think that the knife would probably just get wedged inside the Marine.

And then Master Chief Beatdown Time!:evilgrin:

DantesInferno
02-05-2008, 07:15
Kudos to the Dawn of War reference.

It was a Theodore Roosevelt reference before it was a Dawn of War reference....

In any case, this thread deserves to be taken out the back and shot, along with all the other "versus" threads.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 07:18
It was a Theodore Roosevelt reference before it was a Dawn of War reference....

In any case, this thread deserves to be taken out the back and shot, along with all the other "versus" threads.

But 'versus' threads are the new Warseer. Along with 'Marine s3x' threads and 'Who was Horus' threads.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-05-2008, 20:51
It was a Theodore Roosevelt reference before it was a Dawn of War reference....

I always liked that quote. Big stick indeed.


In any case, this thread deserves to be taken out the back and shot, along with all the other "versus" threads.

True.


But 'versus' threads are the new Warseer. Along with 'Marine s3x' threads and 'Who was Horus' threads.

Apparently.

mongoosedog300
02-05-2008, 23:28
Until GW releases some solid facts about strength, armour and speed of a SM (Not " ZOMG THEY TEH BESTORZ"), no one is going to be able to win this thread. Right now all the stories about marines vary so wildly (SM's can die from small arms fire, oh wait, no they can't) that it's hard to tell what their capable of, so people will automatically jump to the most extreme stories they can (and lets face it, theres alot of SM stories) to compare to the 1 MC story.

Koryphaus
03-05-2008, 01:07
Who needs evidence?

Yeah we can win, with the same blind doggedness that has helped the Imperium survive the last 10000 years. SM FTW!

Anyway, now I'm over that...

kikkoman
03-05-2008, 17:59
who would win in a fight Cortana or a servo skull???

Sojourner
03-05-2008, 18:06
wouldn't falling from orbit and falling from a skyscaper be the same once you reach terminal velocity?

Absolutely not. Falling from orbit means that you reach your terminal velocity in an atmosphere that's a tiny fraction of surface density - probably many hundreds or even thousands of miles per hour. After that there's not enough to slow you down to terminal velocity at sea level so when you reach the ground you'll still have an enormous velocity unless you've been taking measures to reduce your speed. For example, the space shuttle landing pattern covers most of the planet if I remember correctly; it takes a large part of a global round trip to bleed off the vast kinetic energy, via the heat shield. Spacecraft that heat up in atmosphere are designed that way because the alternative is to hit the ground at high mach number and leave a large crater.

heretics bane
03-05-2008, 19:53
This video made my wife cry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq2akuhFaB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnCs46FEtqA

When there is something similar for a GW Space Marine then perhaps.

:cries:...........damn!

downundercadet07
03-05-2008, 20:12
Also for the 'marine' linguistic catch of calling the Master Chief a space marine, isn't he a naval commando, not a space marine? I mean, master chief is not a marine rank, it is a naval one, and all the ranks in the background are the same. Also, I seem to remember his chain of command terminates somewhere in the department of Naval Intelligence. So, really more organizationally like a SEAL than a Marine, so that chestnut is out too, I think.

Templar Ben
03-05-2008, 20:45
Well we all know Navy pwns all.

Petty Officer Second Class (SEAL) :p

Escaflowne_Z
04-05-2008, 02:06
Traditionally in the British navy, all men assignes strictly as ship to ship close combatants are called marines, right? I'd bet that is where this terminology comes from.

As for the topic, 40k marine > Master Chief. However, Master Chief + Cortana > 40k marine.

Koryphaus
04-05-2008, 06:56
Absolutely not. Falling from orbit means that you reach your terminal velocity in an atmosphere that's a tiny fraction of surface density - probably many hundreds or even thousands of miles per hour. After that there's not enough to slow you down to terminal velocity at sea level so when you reach the ground you'll still have an enormous velocity unless you've been taking measures to reduce your speed. For example, the space shuttle landing pattern covers most of the planet if I remember correctly; it takes a large part of a global round trip to bleed off the vast kinetic energy, via the heat shield. Spacecraft that heat up in atmosphere are designed that way because the alternative is to hit the ground at high mach number and leave a large crater.

It also does really complex fishtail patterns in the sky to bleed off its inertia.

Koryphaus
04-05-2008, 07:01
Traditionally in the British navy, all men assignes strictly as ship to ship close combatants are called marines, right? I'd bet that is where this terminology comes from.

As for the topic, 40k marine > Master Chief. However, Master Chief + Cortana > 40k marine.

Correct, though not strictly limited ship to ship combat. The Royal Marines were (and still are) one of the most lethal fighting forces in the world, and they certainly fought on land.

What could Cortana do to a SM? Inspire the MC?

Escaflowne_Z
04-05-2008, 07:46
Cortana would read all 40k material in less than a second, then trap the Space Marine in a continuity conundrum. ;)

Koryphaus
04-05-2008, 08:02
Oh right... What would happen if Cortana (or MC for that matter) was infected with the oblitorator virus?

bobbles
04-05-2008, 18:17
hes' a marine in space=space marine end of discussion

Koryphaus
05-05-2008, 03:11
Yes, if you take the blindly literal meaning. I think that people are looking for something a little more in depth though?

Nazguire
05-05-2008, 03:13
hes' a marine in space=space marine end of discussion

Well in a straight, stupidly obvious, sense then yes, the Master Chief is a Space Marine. But he's not an Astartes.

Knight_Yellow
05-05-2008, 04:24
The often mention "but he fell from space" arguement is null and void.

1. I believe several other Spartans either got injured or died doing the same thing.
2. There are 2-3 cases in wich people have jumped from a plane and had complete chute malfuntions yet survived does this mean humans are better than marines?.

Honestly, the whole falling from space thing is realy overstated considering the relatively minor information it provides.

Spartans may or may not live through a planet fall is all that arguement proves.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Purely from a pyschological point of view...

Would a Spartan maintain bowel control if he/she was face to face with a tyranid horde? an Ork Waaaagh? A chaos uprising?

A Space Marine certainly does.

Nazguire
05-05-2008, 04:41
The often mention "but he fell from space" arguement is null and void.

1. I believe several other Spartans either got injured or died doing the same thing.
2. There are 2-3 cases in wich people have jumped from a plane and had complete chute malfuntions yet survived does this mean humans are better than marines?.

Honestly, the whole falling from space thing is realy overstated considering the relatively minor information it provides.

Spartans may or may not live through a planet fall is all that arguement proves.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Purely from a pyschological point of view...

Would a Spartan maintain bowel control if he/she was face to face with a tyranid horde? an Ork Waaaagh? A chaos uprising?

A Space Marine certainly does.

The story you're talking about I'm pretty sure was the Spartans falling from a much lower distance, out of a transport or something similar, which only reinforces the argument that if they can die or be grievously wounded from that, then falling from orbit is pretty much a no-brainer.

GR_Zombie
05-05-2008, 04:47
Dunno if it's been brought up yet, unfortunately I don't have enough time to browse at the moment, but the Master Chief is not a Space Marine for one simple reason

Master Chief is in the Navy ;)

edit: hey 100th post! groovy!

alex03
05-05-2008, 05:18
Ummmm, the master chief didnt just free fall from orbit on his own, he was in a ship that was falling from orbit. I assume that the ship was strong enough to make re-entry, and the master chief jumped out on a piece of the ship's wreckage while in the atmosphere. There was a pre h3 video of it i remember seeing.

alex03
05-05-2008, 05:21
Anyhow, this is how I see it

unsc marine = imperial guard veteran
unsc drop trooper = imperial guard storm trooper
spartan = space marine scout with a refractor field

I had another thought, the MC could also be close to a vindicare assassin with better armor.

Koryphaus
05-05-2008, 06:07
Dunno if it's been brought up yet, unfortunately I don't have enough time to browse at the moment, but the Master Chief is not a Space Marine for one simple reason

Master Chief is in the Navy ;)



Yep it had and that's where marines are from, historically. A space fleet is still a navy. So soldiers on those ships are space marines. But MC is way short of being an Adeptus Astartes

Müller
05-05-2008, 07:46
Oh I'm sorry but Marines aren't Navy, sure the idea och the Marine Corps was developed from the Navy but they are not a part of the navy... hence he's no marine and therefore not a space marine either..

Koryphaus
05-05-2008, 08:37
I don't recall specifically mentioning the US Marine Corps.

Marines are, in principle, seaborne land soldiers that are part of a navy, and their primary role is amphibious operations.

legio mortis
05-05-2008, 14:43
unsc marine = imperial guard veteran
unsc drop trooper = imperial guard storm trooper
How do you get that? UNSC Marines would be equal to Guardsmen, if that. UNSC Drop Troopers would also be equivilant to Guardsmen. Keep in mind that your average tithed rookie Guardsmen is already going to be an experienced soldier before he puts on the Aquila.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-05-2008, 23:18
How do you get that? UNSC Marines would be equal to Guardsmen, if that. UNSC Drop Troopers would also be equivilant to Guardsmen. Keep in mind that your average tithed rookie Guardsmen is already going to be an experienced soldier before he puts on the Aquila.

Lots of people fail to realize the true prowess of a Guardsman due to badly written fluff which does not ascribe to the minimum guidelines set out in your sig by... oh... me. :p

Lothlanathorian
05-05-2008, 23:23
Oh I'm sorry but Marines aren't Navy, sure the idea och the Marine Corps was developed from the Navy but they are not a part of the navy... hence he's no marine and therefore not a space marine either..

Actually, the USMC is a department of the US Navy. Pay attention to all the detailed writing on the patches. Also, I was there, several of my friends are still Marines and I've a few friends and relatives in the USN.

And yes, Master Cheif is not a Marine, he is Navy. Master Cheif is a Naval rank. Very high enlisted rank.

Templar Ben
06-05-2008, 02:40
Oh I'm sorry but Marines aren't Navy, sure the idea och the Marine Corps was developed from the Navy but they are not a part of the navy... hence he's no marine and therefore not a space marine either..

You may want to look at this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/USMC_logo.svg). It really doesn't matter though because the Navy is cooler. :angel:

alex03
06-05-2008, 04:09
A normal unsc marine would have as much or more training than a guardsman, has implats to help with shooting and tactical information (bs4), and is much more motivated than a normal guardsman would be (ld8). Also UNSC marines use a wide variety of weapons, much like vetern squads do. Thus imperial guardsman vetern status.

I think people overestimate the training guardsmen recieve, actually. And it varies tremedously from regiment to regiment also. If anything the Imperium gathers up 1000 shlocks, hands them some lasguns and crapy worthless armor, lets them fire some flashlight rounds downrange, and sends them off to die.

Hellebore
06-05-2008, 04:38
A normal unsc marine would have as much or more training than a guardsman, has implats to help with shooting and tactical information (bs4), and is much more motivated than a normal guardsman would be (ld8). Also UNSC marines use a wide variety of weapons, much like vetern squads do. Thus imperial guardsman vetern status.

I think people overestimate the training guardsmen recieve, actually. And it varies tremedously from regiment to regiment also. If anything the Imperium gathers up 1000 shlocks, hands them some lasguns and crapy worthless armor, lets them fire some flashlight rounds downrange, and sends them off to die.

WS and BS 3 represent a TRAINED soldier. Human civilians are WS/BS 2. The guard must have SOME training to get that 50% stat boost...

Strange that the IG codex has a Conscripts unit with WS/BS 2 and Ld5 - could it be THEM that you are talking about?

Hellebore

legio mortis
06-05-2008, 05:06
A normal unsc marine would have as much or more training than a guardsman,
Oh, okay, so an average UNSC Marine recruit is already a seasoned military veteran before he joins their ranks?



has implats to help with shooting and tactical information (bs4),
Okay, nothing that Guardsmen can't have here.



and is much more motivated than a normal guardsman would be (ld8).
I'm sure you have some sort of proof. Tithed Guardsmen are borderline fanatical to the Imperial cause and are led by some very talented officers.



Also UNSC marines use a wide variety of weapons,
Uh, so do Guardsmen..



I think people overestimate the training guardsmen recieve, actually.
And I think that you underestimate them greatly. Remember that new tithed recruits are already veterans.



If anything the Imperium gathers up 1000 shlocks,
And these schlocks just happen to be the best of their respective planet's PDF.



crapy worthless armor,
This crappy worthless armor can withstand a point blank round from a bolt action rifle. Hmm, doesn't seem so crappy now, does it?



lets them fire some flashlight rounds downrange, and sends them off to die.
I think that someone's fallen for the ever-so-popular Guard stereotype. Educate yourself. Go grab the Munitorum Manual and the 2nd Edition Guard book if you can find them.

Nazguire
06-05-2008, 05:55
A normal unsc marine would have as much or more training than a guardsman, has implats to help with shooting and tactical information (bs4), and is much more motivated than a normal guardsman would be (ld8). Also UNSC marines use a wide variety of weapons, much like vetern squads do. Thus imperial guardsman vetern status.

I think people overestimate the training guardsmen recieve, actually. And it varies tremedously from regiment to regiment also. If anything the Imperium gathers up 1000 shlocks, hands them some lasguns and crapy worthless armor, lets them fire some flashlight rounds downrange, and sends them off to die.


Some Guard Regiments are essentially made up of ill trained Conscripts or prisoners (such as the Savlar Chem-Dogs) or basically cavemen with a pair of army boots and a knife.

A lot of regiments, if not most regiments, (particularly the Cadian, Vostroyan, Mordian, Death Korps, Valhallan and Catachan, to name a few of the famous ones) are skilled soldiers. The lasgun in 40k is crap. Yes that's true. Because in comparison to every other race's basic weapon (boltgun, pulse rifle, shuriken catapult, shoota) they fail miserably.

In the background, a shot from a lasgun will blow your head off just as effectively, if not more effectively then an autogun. The only reason that the two dont' have seperate rules is just for ease of use in game.

Flak armour is basically a more advanced version of kevlar armour from what I personally can tell, and while it gives you a 5+ save, this is again sucky in the game due to the power of the boltgun (AP5) Shuriken Catapult (AP5) and Pulse Rifle (AP5). It provides more then enough protection.

Carapace armour is also what the Tau wear. Have you looked at the Kasrkin models? That's heavy duty, high tech and high protection armour.

Read books that don't center on the Marines as the characters and you'll realise the skill of the Imperial Guard. The Catachans are the best jungle fighters in the galaxy. No exception. Cadians are elite, as are Vostroyans, Valhallans and Mordians (the list keeps going)

The only reason that people seem to think that the Imperial Guard are wimpy little cannon fodder is that when put next to a seven foot green killing beast with a sword longer then your body, they sorta do look wimpy.

But a Catachan Jungle Fighter regiment would maim a SAS or USMC or Spetznaz unit. The same goes for a Cadian or Elysian Drop Troops regiment.

Imperial Guard for the most part DO have varied weaponry and vehicles. And tanks. And super heavy tanks. And sometimes Titan support. They have orbital satellites that have engines, are larger then small cities and have city destroying weapons that have awesome names like "Emperor's Wrath Battleship" that give them pinpoint information (That is Imperial Navy I suppose but you get the idea).

A stormtrooper is BS4 because unlike the average USMC recruit, he's been raised since day one to fire a Hellgun with his targetters in his military orphanage (Schola Progenium) and as such is a DAMN GOOD shot. A US Marine would have no change on a Stormtrooper.

There is no such thing as a bored Imperial Guardsman. They fight every day (more or less, you get the idea I'm going with this) against horrors that we can only dream about. It's easy for us to say that fighting Tyranids would be easy, 'just shoot 'em' but until you come face-to-face with a snarling, six legged, reptillian acid spitting monstrosity (not just one but millions) you have no idea.

The average Imperial Guardsman grows up fighting mutants, cultists, Orks, Tyranids or whatever depending on his theatre and location of operations. We fight (the Western world) ill-trained, ill-armed guerillas and dissedents. See the difference?

The Imperial Guard are NOT useless cannon fodder with no good weaponry, tactics, strategy and skills (Napoleon Dynamite...)

Koryphaus
06-05-2008, 06:03
Yes, Guardsmen are great. Just read Storm of Iron for details of the accuracy of the Basilisk batteries and the courage of the individual soldiers when faced with the ferocity of the Iron Warriors.

Read Dark Apostle, especially for the bits about the Elysian Drop Troops.

alex03
06-05-2008, 07:06
I guess i could see UNSC marines as guard with carapace armor. That would be ok. You cant shake me on drop troops not being storm troopers though. :P

WhiteZombie
06-05-2008, 07:35
everyone knows spartans are a cheap rip off of astartes. chief is the sorny and palasonic of this argument.

Müller
06-05-2008, 08:29
I never claimed to base what I was saying off the USMC...

For example... here in Sweden (Stockholm region) we have a regiment called "Amphibious Infantry" (In other words, marines), however, they are not navy, they are Infantry, the only difference is that their transports are (most of the time) small and fast boats instead of APCs... other than that they have nothing in common with the navy...

Koryphaus
06-05-2008, 08:40
...the Marine Corps was developed from the Navy but they are not a part of the navy...

Sounded like you were talking about the USMC to me...

Justicar
06-05-2008, 10:55
A quick question here. How high is orbit?

Because Master Chief fell two kilometres, according to the Halo 3 intro video. Is that really orbit?

Koryphaus
06-05-2008, 11:14
Well you can orbit a body at any height if you are travelling fast enough, the speed required decreases as the altitude increases. So if you are travelling fast enough, you could orbit a planet at a height of 2km.

An example of a typical geostationary orbit is 36,000km for Earth IIRC, though satellites and space shuttles orbit closer to the surface, and so orbit at a much higher velocity.

Justicar
06-05-2008, 12:05
Thank you for the information. I wonder what hight all the people who are talking about Master Chief's fall from orbit in this thread are thinking about. Because there is a huge difference in falling two kilometres, and falling 36,000 kilometres. The first one dosn't sound so impossible to me.

Besides, the Mjolnir Armor has some kind of gel that protects the wearer when falling or jumping from hights. I quote Halopedia: It is also likely that the suit automatically increases the pressure level of its hydrostatic gel as the wearer is falling, explaining the lack of fall damage in the second game.

Lothlanathorian
06-05-2008, 13:20
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usmc


Administratively within the Department of the Navy, operationally the U.S. Marine Corps acts as a separate branch of the military


And yes, MC did not fall from orbit, he fell from a very believable and survivable distance, made more so with his armour. Of course, if he could survive being punched in the face with Earth, why can he be run over/shot to death/killed at all?

How about someone brings up from the fluff on Halo exactly what kind of modifications were made to MC's genetics and all of this stuff. What was altered and how?

Champsguy
06-05-2008, 15:01
There seems to be disagreement on how tough an average IG soldier is. That's fine, as everyone has their own view on different fluff subjects, and as long as your interpretation makes you happy, then it's really all good, isn't it? The fluff is contradictory, and so there is not really any hard and fast rule we can operate on.

My view:
There are more Guard regiments than there are planets in the Imperium. Those regiments vary in quality from the murderous troopers of Catachan to the pantywaists from Vacation Planet #5 (made up mostly of little rich boys who like to play officer, and whose families have enough pull in the Imperial government to make sure their unit is stationed out in the middle of nowhere where they are unlikely to ever fight anyone). Training-wise, you have variety as well. Cadians are taught to shoot a gun from the time they are 5. Then you've got cavemen from planet Harryhausen IV who are simply given combat boots, a flashlight, and are told to charge. There is a huge amount of variety.

However, if you begin to weed out the exceptions (everyone on Catachan is Rambo, so they're not exactly representative, but then neither are the pantywaists), you'll get an "average" IG unit.

The "average" IG unit, in my view, operates similarly to how wars were fought in the first half of the 20th century. Most troops are rushed through a basic training regimen that teaches them to salute, to shoot a gun, and to dig a hole. They are taught that the enemy is weaker than them, lacks courage, and are easily defeated. They are then sent into the meat grinder.

Veteran troops are those who survive a few missions. They quickly learn to scrounge up better armor and equipment. They learn to "requisition" extra plasma guns, carapace armor, and other things that help keep you alive. The officers know that these troops are some of the best fighters in the unit, and so they look the other way at certain breaches of protocol.

Conscripts are guys who don't want to be there. They didn't sign up for this (heck, they didn't sign up at ALL). They are used for simple human-wave tactics, by incompetent commanders.

The Guard operates like guys in war movies. You'll have a lot of faceless grunts, and then one or two characters who are tougher than all their buddies. Even such elites as Catachans are really just like the squad in Predator. You've got a bunch of gunch dummies who are there to get killed until Arnold steps up and kills the monster.

DivineVisitor
06-05-2008, 15:42
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usmc




And yes, MC did not fall from orbit, he fell from a very believable and survivable distance, made more so with his armour. Of course, if he could survive being punched in the face with Earth, why can he be run over/shot to death/killed at all?

How about someone brings up from the fluff on Halo exactly what kind of modifications were made to MC's genetics and all of this stuff. What was altered and how?

Someone already brought up some of the modifications and background earlier in the thread. But its still not a easy one to call seeing as how we aren't given specifics like how much he can carry, how hard he can punch, how much punishment his armour can take, how good the shields are etc etc. And note that IN GAME referencing is definitely not the way to go.

I still think he would be on the Officio Assassin level of ability. Though we would need someone who has actually read the novels in order to get some more accurate information.

Firaxin
06-05-2008, 16:16
Of course, if he could survive being punched in the face with Earth, why can he be run over/shot to death/killed at all?


Because the earth doesn't punch him a second time. Theoretically, you could assume his armor locks up when he dies in game, but the fact that he survived the hit and is now lying there helpless doesn't mean much when the brute/elite/etc who shot him can just walk over and curb stomp him.

Champsguy
06-05-2008, 16:30
Someone already brought up some of the modifications and background earlier in the thread. But its still not a easy one to call seeing as how we aren't given specifics like how much he can carry, how hard he can punch, how much punishment his armour can take, how good the shields are etc etc. And note that IN GAME referencing is definitely not the way to go.

I still think he would be on the Officio Assassin level of ability. Though we would need someone who has actually read the novels in order to get some more accurate information.

Right. In-game mechanics are DEFINITELY not the way to go. Otherwise you could look at Space Marines from Dawn of War, who have to shoot an Imperial Guardsman or Chaos Cultist like 50 times before they die (or Tau Stealth Suit Burst Cannons, which are apparently about as powerful as a lawn sprinkler).

x-esiv-4c
06-05-2008, 16:51
So we are agreed then that the MC is the equivalent to a well armed, well trained guardsmen.

legio mortis
06-05-2008, 17:07
I guess i could see UNSC marines as guard with carapace armor. That would be ok.
Why carapace armor? They would be Guardsmen with Flak.



You cant shake me on drop troops not being storm troopers though. :P
What makes drop troops so special?

alex03
06-05-2008, 18:18
Why carapace armor? They would be Guardsmen with Flak.


What makes drop troops so special?

The halo marines have metal plated body armor covering most of their body. It actually looks a lot like kasrkin armor. Not just a "flak" vest like the regular guard. Thus carapace armor.

The drop troops are the elites of the halo marines world. They are highly trained and motivated, wear full fitted black body armor, and are trained to drop from orbit. Thus they are equivilant to IG storm troopers.

Nazguire
06-05-2008, 18:26
I guess i could see UNSC marines as guard with carapace armor. That would be ok. You cant shake me on drop troops not being storm troopers though. :P

USMC as Guard with carapace armour?

They are Imperial Guardsmen with flak armour on and a different badge. They (the USMC) don't wear anything near the equivalent of carapace armour.

Moostikal The Confused
06-05-2008, 18:33
Well, i'd say that if an astartesgot the first hit in the mc would be pancaked because neither him or his armour is resiliant enough. However if the mc got the first hit in the astartes would be pancaked because the mc is stronger. i see the mc as a glass cannon, ie able to dish it out but can't take it back.

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-05-2008, 18:55
everyone knows spartans are a cheap rip off of astartes. chief is the sorny and palasonic of this argument.

I think he's far more a Ender's Game + Spartan rip off than an Astartes rip off.

Fall of Reach is pretty much what happen's when Ender's Game is combined with Spartan elements.

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-05-2008, 19:03
And, aren't the Spartans at like the age of 12 taking out trained soldiers who're told to kill them on sight during training?

They are also left alone in the wilderness to survive on their own while just being children.

They are ridiculously well trained.

Müller
06-05-2008, 19:08
And, aren't the Spartans at like the age of 12 taking out trained soldiers who're told to kill them on sight during training?

They are also left alone in the wilderness to survive on their own while just being children.

They are ridiculously well trained.


Do you even know how space marines are trained? ;)
If you do then you'd know that taking out Imperial guardsmen at the age of 12 is no problem ;)

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-05-2008, 19:14
Oh I don't doubt it.

But the Spartans aren't from geneseeds. They are normal children doing amazing things.

Spartans were not premade to be genetically superhuman like the astartes.

Edit: Hmmm... looking at how Space Marines are made, looks like I got a lot to learn.

Rockerfella
06-05-2008, 20:38
Bottom line is, you're either a marine fanbuoy (ducks for cover) or you're a Chief fanbuoy. *takes a hit from the chief fanbuoy, as he's obviously a better shot*

Anyways. ON a serious note, the Chief is described as being a genetically enhanced, seven foot tall super dude. Ring any bells? For me, there wouldn't be much in it.

Marines seem more compact and 'sturdy' possibly. The chief i'm guessing will be more fluent in his movement, but equally as strong. He's a very, very big man.

Anyways, Im a marine fan, and a chief fan. What I like about the chief is that he's a whisper talker. He's like clint eastwood. He's so hard, he dosen't need to speak above a whisper. If you can't hear what he says, unlucky. Kinda sounds like Gary Busey in dire need of a strepsil.

These threads, whilst fun, are utterly unproductive and tend to result in people getting upset.

So, i'm bailing out now while I'm still able to!

Cheers!

legio mortis
06-05-2008, 20:42
The halo marines have metal plated body armor covering most of their body. It actually looks a lot like kasrkin armor. Not just a "flak" vest like the regular guard. Thus carapace armor.
Looking at the pictures, they look just as covered as Guardsmen. Keep in mind that the area of coverage doesn't make it carapace armor, the materials it's made of does. Carapace is made of stuff like ceramite, armaplas and plasteel, and I've not seen or read about any UNSC Marine having that sort of protection.

You're also thinking that Flak armor is bad. It's actually pretty effective.



The drop troops are the elites of the halo marines world. They are highly trained and motivated, wear full fitted black body armor, and are trained to drop from orbit. Thus they are equivilant to IG storm troopers.
No, they sound like Elysians or Harakoni to me. How much training do they have? As I've said before, a rookie Guardsman who's already a military veteran is BS 3. They've been in combat many times before and are the elite of their respective planet's PDF.

Champsguy
06-05-2008, 21:02
Personally, I don't like HALO. Boring game. But the marine love is getting a little thick. This is becoming "my techno-babble is stronger than your techno-babble". Personally I think Mega-Man and Super Mario would beat them all.

Rockerfella
06-05-2008, 21:08
Ah well, there you go. Isn't debate and free speech great? Personally, I LOVED Halo. Loved the second one too, but felt the third game was a total let down. Ah well. You win some, you lose some.

Copenhagan
06-05-2008, 21:15
I would have to say that training wise that an Astartes has significantly more training then the MC. As Astartes candidates are normally recruited from death worlds or feral worlds. The Candidates are some of the strongest survivors of a people that have to fight on a daily basis to live. After living the age of maybe 20 the strongest are selected by the Chaplains of the Chapter. These perspective Astartes are then run though the most grueling test very. Only the very best survive. These "winners" then go though multiply surgeries and DNA manipulations.

After all that (which takes anywhere from a couple months to 10 or more years) the Initiate the are inducted into the scout company. They stay in this company for years. After they have proven themselves in combat (by doing something really heroic) they are then promoted to Battle Brother and the Black Carapace is installed.

After they have achieved the status of Battle Brother then the hard work starts. As the can and will be deployed across the Galaxy to combat the many many threats that humanity faces. Most Astartes will live for centuries some for Thousands of year.

As for who I would think would win, I would have to give it to the Astartes. As the Astartes has a pretty massive training edge over MC. But also has large hight and weight advantage as well as the ability to take a lot more damage. As I have read about Astartes fighting without an arm or a leg or 3 missing limbs. Were as no where in any of the Halo books does a Spartan sustain this kind of damage and continue to fight.

As for weapons the only weapons that the MC has access to that could harm a Astartes are the rocket launcher, the energy sword and the gravity hammer. Wheres as the MC would most likely die to a Bolter. I'm pretty sure a Bolter round has close to the same kind of punch that the rocket launcher has. As both can destroy light to medium vehicles with out much trouble.

I have read in this thread about the MC surviving a anti-tank shell. This was because Cortana helped the MC with the timing of hitting it with his and a jumping away at the same time.

Rockerfella
06-05-2008, 21:42
But, height advantage? really? I mean... every boxer tyson and marciano ever fought had a height advantage, but in real terms, that means diddly squat.

Weight advantage: to me, thats more important. Its the sheer bulk and musculature of the marine that would give him the edge.

The chief is seven feet tall..... he's big enough for the height advantage of a marine to really not make any difference at all. We're talking a couple of inches here I think, tops. Its like Hulk Hogan facing down psycho sid. When you're big enough to pick another man up, regardless of his height, and slam him over your knee... three inches means nothing.

Its the weight, or at least, the weight to power ratio that will make it tough for the chief. Its getting to grips with a man whos' that much bulkier than you. You're gonna struggle to grapple etc. The sheer power of the marine will be a real big issue.

DivineVisitor
06-05-2008, 21:45
I would have to say that training wise that an Astartes has significantly more training then the MC. As Astartes candidates are normally recruited from death worlds or feral worlds. The Candidates are some of the strongest survivors of a people that have to fight on a daily basis to live. After living the age of maybe 20 the strongest are selected by the Chaplains of the Chapter. These perspective Astartes are then run though the most grueling test very. Only the very best survive. These "winners" then go though multiply surgeries and DNA manipulations.

After all that (which takes anywhere from a couple months to 10 or more years) the Initiate the are inducted into the scout company. They stay in this company for years. After they have proven themselves in combat (by doing something really heroic) they are then promoted to Battle Brother and the Black Carapace is installed.

After they have achieved the status of Battle Brother then the hard work starts. As the can and will be deployed across the Galaxy to combat the many many threats that humanity faces. Most Astartes will live for centuries some for Thousands of year.

As for who I would think would win, I would have to give it to the Astartes. As the Astartes has a pretty massive training edge over MC. But also has large hight and weight advantage as well as the ability to take a lot more damage. As I have read about Astartes fighting without an arm or a leg or 3 missing limbs. Were as no where in any of the Halo books does a Spartan sustain this kind of damage and continue to fight.

As for weapons the only weapons that the MC has access to that could harm a Astartes are the rocket launcher, the energy sword and the gravity hammer. Wheres as the MC would most likely die to a Bolter. I'm pretty sure a Bolter round has close to the same kind of punch that the rocket launcher has. As both can destroy light to medium vehicles with out much trouble.

I have read in this thread about the MC surviving a anti-tank shell. This was because Cortana helped the MC with the timing of hitting it with his and a jumping away at the same time.

Well we all know that you need to be MR badass in order to get through Marine Training. But what little i know of the Chief's training it was hardly a walk in the park either. And the reason you don't really hear about a Spartan going at it with a limb missing could be because there were around 33 of them in total and not all that much background material on them. Not exactly much compared to the number of Marines in the 40K universe and the stories that have been written about them. As for Cortana helping perhaps helping him out, he still did it. Cortana is just one of the Chief's advantages. One of the perks.

Anyway think Rockerfella hit the nail on the head about this thread.

Champsguy
06-05-2008, 21:50
Too... much... marine... hard-on...

There are a lot of people here who are swallowing evey bit of marine propoganda that is offered up. It is one thing to suspend your disbelief, quite another to hang it by its neck until dead.

legio mortis
06-05-2008, 22:01
Too... much... marine... hard-on...

There are a lot of people here who are swallowing evey bit of marine propoganda that is offered up. It is one thing to suspend your disbelief, quite another to hang it by its neck until dead.
What constitutes propaganda? We know who Marines like as candidates, we know what they have to go through and how long they do it, and we also know everything else they have to go through in order to become fully fledged Astartes. By the time a Space Marine becomes a full Battle Brother, he's been fighting for the chapter for decades.

Templar Ben
06-05-2008, 22:16
Just curious but who are all these PDF forces getting combat experience against? I don't want this to go all P&R so I won't name a country but if you grab a 15 year vet from some countries they may have fired a total of 200 rounds in that career and none of them in anger even though they are infantry.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-05-2008, 22:49
Too... much... marine... hard-on...

There are a lot of people here who are swallowing evey bit of marine propoganda that is offered up. It is one thing to suspend your disbelief, quite another to hang it by its neck until dead.

Right, I'd forgotten that anything in 40k that gives the Imperium an advantage can be written off as blatant propaganda.

Champsguy
06-05-2008, 23:45
Right, I'd forgotten that anything in 40k that gives the Imperium an advantage can be written off as blatant propaganda.

What I mean is this: we've had page after page of people who sing the praises of space marines, ignoring any possibility that something else might be just as good.

So both Master Chief and the Marines are 7 foot tall augmented supersoldier killing machines who wear powered armor, so they should be pretty equal, right? "Well," says the fanboy, "Marines have GENESEED! So they're better!" Riiight. We've got people claiming Marine armor is much tougher because it is made of ceramite, armaplas, and other make-believe stuff (as opposed to Master Chief, whose suit is made of different make-believe stuff).

We actually have people seriously proposing that MC is a guardsman in carapace armor. Seriously. That's retarded.

Then we've got the unbelievable imperial history. The idea that every Space Marine has like three centuries of experience is retarded. Given even the most conservative of casualty rates, the average Marine life span would be much shorter than that. Plus, what does "centuries of experience" really mean? Do you get any better if you have centuries of "point bolter, shoot ork"? Seriously, I type about as well as I ever will. I'm not gonna get any better at it. How good a guitar player would Eddie Van Halen be with 500 years experience? Probably the same as he is now. There's a certain amount of natural physical ability that no training will ever improve.

That's what I mean by "believing the propoganda". There's a lot of crap about Marines that doesn't really MEAN anything.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-05-2008, 23:55
What I mean is this: we've had page after page of people who sing the praises of space marines, ignoring any possibility that something else might be just as good.

Now we're talking.


So both Master Chief and the Marines are 7 foot tall augmented supersoldier killing machines who wear powered armor, so they should be pretty equal, right? "Well," says the fanboy, "Marines have GENESEED! So they're better!" Riiight. We've got people claiming Marine armor is much tougher because it is made of ceramite, armaplas, and other make-believe stuff (as opposed to Master Chief, whose suit is made of different make-believe stuff).

Alright, I can see your point there. But while it seems silly to say 'my imaginary wang is bigger than your imaginary wang,' I'd say that Marines have an edge, due to their materials being (despite the Mechanicus' efforts) highly advanced beyond what we will achieve in a few hundred years.

And most of the people bringing up geneseed were trying to differentiate an Astartes Space Marine from a Space Marine (Marines in Space!)... which was, for whatever reason, necessary.

I personally think that, even if the MC is somewhat less impressive than a Space Marine, his indomitable plot armor would definitely help.


We actually have people seriously proposing that MC is a guardsman in carapace armor. Seriously. That's retarded.

Indeed, I thought it was silly myself.


Then we've got the unbelievable imperial history. The idea that every Space Marine has like three centuries of experience is retarded. Given even the most conservative of casualty rates, the average Marine life span would be much shorter than that. Plus, what does "centuries of experience" really mean? Do you get any better if you have centuries of "point bolter, shoot ork"? Seriously, I type about as well as I ever will. I'm not gonna get any better at it. How good a guitar player would Eddie Van Halen be with 500 years experience? Probably the same as he is now. There's a certain amount of natural physical ability that no training will ever improve.

If you say so. I'd say that combat has a lot more facets than guitar playing or typing (not dissing on those skills, by the way, just saying that life-or-death combat against thinking opponents is a lot more complicated), and that Marines would have a much higher potential in a lot of areas than a normal human. So would a Master-Chief-esque character.

And I'd like to ask from where your most conservative casualty rates come from. In game, yeah, a Marine is quite toned down, but in fluff, they're unstoppable monsters.


That's what I mean by "believing the propoganda". There's a lot of crap about Marines that doesn't really MEAN anything.

Maybe when it's misused in the arguments you're attacking, but I'd like to think that the fluff does mean something.

HellRaid
07-05-2008, 00:04
The idea that every Space Marine has like three centuries of experience is retarded. Given even the most conservative of casualty rates, the average Marine life span would be much shorter than that.

I have no idea where you got three centuries from, but bear in mind that being a 'casualty' in 40k does not always mean 'dead'.

I'd say that realistically Astartes would be faster and stronger than MC. They might not have his shielding, but they also have armour that doesn't give a damn about incoming fire.

They have guns that fire bullets the size of your fist that explode on impact. And they can take plenty of those hits back in return.

Marines can have one arm blown off by an explosive, and then one-handedly snap a man's neck two hours later.

In one particular piece of fluff, a marine had a melta bomb strapped to his helmet. The bomb exploded, damaging the helmet and making the marine very, very angry - but otherwise unscathed.

Now, try strapping a plasma grenade to Master Chief's face.

Lothlanathorian
07-05-2008, 00:04
And realistically attempting to portray the Space Marines is fanboism. :p

Most of us here have read the Index Astartes and some of us have been around long to enough to remember when GW used to tell us everything that Space Marines went through to become a Space Marine. I won't go into a ridiculous amount of detail as it can be found here in this thread already.

As for the Imperial Guard, the stats are to represent average guardsmen and be game balanced at the same time. Special Characters are the ones that stand out and impress people. The Storm Troopers are the closest we have to what a Spartan Goes through before genetic modification. And I think that hardened veterans are what the Helljumpers would be. Just with Grav Chutes.

So, what we need is; What does a Spartan go through to train and be altered?

Well, we know that they are trained from birth, maybe a little more hardcore than Storm Troopers are. Then, as they get older, they have to do crazy things that would result in them dying unless they are damn good at what they do, rather akin to what Space Marine recruits go through most of their pre-marine life (they recruit mostly from feral worlds, people. Kill or be killed). At this point, a Spartan already has a Storm Troopers training and instincts as honed as a Marine recruits must be to get noticed.

Now, on to the modifications. We know that the Chief is as tall as a Space Marine and he has modifications made to his entire body, but what kind? I would think that denser bone structure is safe to assume. The Spartans most likely have an advanced immune system and healing factor, also. Their reflexes are enhanced and they move faster and see better than any normal human. As far as how much stronger they are, that is where we are most uncertain. I would safely assume that their muscles are denser, making them stronger and heavier than a normal human would be at their size, but by how much? Assuming that things are doubled, we can then assume that cheif could lift around 1,000 pounds over his head with little issue (his 'max lift weight', as it were). At the same time, it is safe to assume that a Space Marine Scout is also capable of the same feats.

Now, as far as Chief being around 60 years old, how much of that was spent in cryostatsis? When he isn't needed, he is on ice. Space Marines are constantly training. Space Marine Scouts, by the time they are inducted into the ranks as a full Battle Brother, are more seasoned than almost any imperial guard veteran, maybe even some commanders. Chief's knowledge is right up there with theirs, however, as combat is ALL he knows. Space Marines, however, also only know combat. Not only do they train and train, but they also have it downloaded into their damn brains so they can't ever forget it.

So far, it is my opinion, that Chief and a veteran Space Marine Scout are on equal footing sans armour, maybe advantage to the Chief. When the Scout becomes a full Battle Brother, he is given his black carapace which always him to interface directly with his armour. We'll come back to this later.

So, Chief and a Space Marine without armour. They have the same height, but the Marine most likely has more mass and a strength advantage. Reflex wise, I would rate them the same. The Marine, however, has a more solid bone structure and a fused ribcage on top of a very super human ability to ignore pain. The Marine, imho, would be tougher and could take more punishment. If the Chief could move fast and not get hit, he would provide a challenge. If the Marine were to land a solid blow, however, I think Chief would be out of the fight.

And I hate you all because I hate having to think and make long, stupid posts about table top miniatures and video game characters. They need to make Halo vs Warhammer for the Xbox. Damn it. We are getting Mortal Kombat vs DC, so why the hell not.

Lothlanathorian
07-05-2008, 00:08
[

They have guns that fire bullets the size of your fist that explode on impact. And they can take plenty of those hits back in return.

Bolt rounds do not explode on impact. They are 'mass reactive'. They go boom in you, not on you.

Hrogoff the Destructor
07-05-2008, 00:44
Now, as far as Chief being around 60 years old, how much of that was spent in cryostatsis? When he isn't needed, he is on ice.

He's physically about 54(?) years old with or without stasis. Very little time was spent in there.

Templar Ben
07-05-2008, 02:55
Unlike Marines that do spend time in garrison or in transit. Marines have an organ just for being in stasis so that tells you a lot about their design.

Champsguy
07-05-2008, 05:01
I have no idea where you got three centuries from, but bear in mind that being a 'casualty' in 40k does not always mean 'dead'.

I picked 3 centuries out of thin air, because that's the average number I've seen quoted in threads like this.

If we used 40K games as a basis, then Marines wouldn't live much longer than a few months. I'm using the handful of 40K books I've read as a basis. Even if you only lose a few guys per campaign, you'll still have enough turnover that you won't hit that "centuries of experience" for the average guy. Sure, Dante might be 1200 years old, but he's definitely the exception, not the rule. Even if a grand total of 5 Marines per year are killed in combat, that's 500 Marines (half your Chapter) in a century. That puts the life expectancy waay down from pretending that every guy has been kicking for centuries.

So we're left with two choices. 1) Marines have a lot more turnover than some want to admit, or 2) The majority of the Chapter isn't engaged in the kind of intense fighting that tends to cause a lot of casualties. They are either spending a lot of their time on garrison duty somewhere, or the enemies they are fighting are weak enough that the Marines can sort of go through the motions without any real risk.

But this "a casualty doesn't equal dead" thing bothers me. Certainly there are SOME casualties that would equal dead. I'd say anything that causes "instant death" would more than likely equal "dead". Battle Cannons, Carnifexes, Wraithlords, Fusion Guns, those all probably equal dead. I'd say if your squad was annihilated by Genestealers, you're probably dead. If your Battle Barge is blown up in a BFG fight before you make planetfall, you're probably dead. I think the "a casualty isn't necessarily a kill" is just a crappy excuse that GW put out and some people latched onto.


I'd say that realistically Astartes would be faster and stronger than MC. They might not have his shielding, but they also have armour that doesn't give a damn about incoming fire.

Okay, why would you say they would be faster and stronger? Because... you like Marines more? Where are those 30 foot leaps like Master Chief routinely makes? That takes muscle, man. And they don't give a damn about incoming fire? Sorry, I must remember to tell my opponent that next time they shoot me with a bunch of lasguns and I fail a bunch of saves.



They have guns that fire bullets the size of your fist that explode on impact. And they can take plenty of those hits back in return.

I've seen boltguns described as 75 caliber, which is nowhere near the size of my fist. The only thing worse than using game mechanics as argument is using GW artwork as though it were gospel. Besides, there's a lot of fluff to suggest that a bolter round will punch right through Power Armor at a close enough range (similar to, say, MC hit by a shotgun).


Marines can have one arm blown off by an explosive, and then one-handedly snap a man's neck two hours later.

They can also get stabbed with a knife and die ingloriously. Besides, REAL MEN in REAL LIFE have performed feats such as you describe. 50 Cent was shot like 9 times in the head, lived, and went on to torment the world with crappy music. Just because some Marine somewhere did it once does not mean it is standard practice for all Marines everywhere.


In one particular piece of fluff, a marine had a melta bomb strapped to his helmet. The bomb exploded, damaging the helmet and making the marine very, very angry - but otherwise unscathed.

And in another, several Dark Angels committed suicide by strapping meltabombs to their chests and setting them off.

Besides, what does this say about the crappy quality of Marine meltabombs if they can't even pierce their own helmets? I'd get me some new anti-tank grenades.

Again, I really really don't like HALO. I can't play any kind of first person shooter for more than 5 minutes without getting vertigo, a splitting headache, and feeling like I'm going to throw up for the next 5 hours. I know next to nothing about Master Chief except what the local HALO fanboys have told me ad nauseum. But I just don't see where this Marine worship has come from.

Koryphaus
07-05-2008, 06:39
If we used 40K games as a basis, then Marines wouldn't live much longer than a few months. I'm using the handful of 40K books I've read as a basis. Even if you only lose a few guys per campaign, you'll still have enough turnover that you won't hit that "centuries of experience" for the average guy. Sure, Dante might be 1200 years old, but he's definitely the exception, not the rule. Even if a grand total of 5 Marines per year are killed in combat, that's 500 Marines (half your Chapter) in a century. That puts the life expectancy waay down from pretending that every guy has been kicking for centuries.

But we aren't using the TT games as a basis, because then we would be comparing fluff against TT, where Marines have to be nerfed or they would mop the floor with everyone.

Are you suggesting that SMs fight all day, every day? They might go a decade without seeing any active service besides Fortress Monastery guarding and training. We don't know, we are always give the picture that all that is happening anywhere, any time in the 40Kverse is warfare, it isn't.

Ah yes, Dante... Logan Grimnar is well over 600. Chaplain Cassius is more than 400, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is 10000 (admittedly, he is in a dreadnought). We never hear of anyone but the big characters so its more than reasonable to assume that regular SMs live for centuries.


So we're left with two choices. 1) Marines have a lot more turnover than some want to admit, or 2) The majority of the Chapter isn't engaged in the kind of intense fighting that tends to cause a lot of casualties. They are either spending a lot of their time on garrison duty somewhere, or the enemies they are fighting are weak enough that the Marines can sort of go through the motions without any real risk.

Your 1st option is wrong from a fluff standpoint, but your second is correct, the majority of the Chapter aren't engaged in the kind of fighting that tends to cause a lot of casualties. They pick their fights very carefully, gauging excactly where to strike to cause the most damage with the least casualties. Of course their enemies are weaker than they are, they are the Adeptus Astartes after all.


But this "a casualty doesn't equal dead" thing bothers me. Certainly there are SOME casualties that would equal dead. I'd say anything that causes "instant death" would more than likely equal "dead". Battle Cannons, Carnifexes, Wraithlords, Fusion Guns, those all probably equal dead. I'd say if your squad was annihilated by Genestealers, you're probably dead. If your Battle Barge is blown up in a BFG fight before you make planetfall, you're probably dead. I think the "a casualty isn't necessarily a kill" is just a crappy excuse that GW put out and some people latched onto.

Well not all wounds caused by modern weapons are fatal. So by extension, not all wounds caused by 40K fire will be either. And its reasonable to assume that with a physiology like a Marine's, not all high power weapon wopunds will be fatal either. I agree, certainly there are SOME casualties that would equal dead.


Okay, why would you say they would be faster and stronger? Because... you like Marines more? Where are those 30 foot leaps like Master Chief routinely makes? That takes muscle, man. And they don't give a damn about incoming fire? Sorry, I must remember to tell my opponent that next time they shoot me with a bunch of lasguns and I fail a bunch of saves.

Ok, in Lord of the Night, Sahaal climbs up the side of a Hive Spire (a distance of many kilometers with a cultist strikeforce hanging off him by ropes. That takes muscle. 30' leap? Thats 10m, people do that in the long-jump all the time, don't think that being genetically enhanced lets you do that.

And they don't really give a damn about incoming fire. They'd try to avoid it, you only have to read the books to see that, but if it hits them its not a real concern. You're comparing fluff to TT again there.


I've seen boltguns described as 75 caliber, which is nowhere near the size of my fist. The only thing worse than using game mechanics as argument is using GW artwork as though it were gospel. Besides, there's a lot of fluff to suggest that a bolter round will punch right through Power Armor at a close enough range (similar to, say, MC hit by a shotgun).

You must have big hands then, because .75 caliber is huge for small arms fire. 75mm is almost the breadth of my palm, certainly bigger than my fist in diameter.


And in another, several Dark Angels committed suicide by strapping meltabombs to their chests and setting them off.

Besides, what does this say about the crappy quality of Marine meltabombs if they can't even pierce their own helmets? I'd get me some new anti-tank grenades.

Does this have anything to do with the thread?


Again, I really really don't like HALO. I can't play any kind of first person shooter for more than 5 minutes without getting vertigo, a splitting headache, and feeling like I'm going to throw up for the next 5 hours. I know next to nothing about Master Chief except what the local HALO fanboys have told me ad nauseum. But I just don't see where this Marine worship has come from.

I don't particularly like HALO either, more a Republic Commando fan myself.

AllisterCaine
07-05-2008, 07:04
Im not sure the comparisons are quite right since fluff can be very different depending on who wrote it. Based on the codices, marines live and fight for centuries. Based on the books, whole companies are whiped out over a few months. I dont think you can really establish an accurate comparison.


However, I think the guardsmen are being VERY underestimated. First of all, Imperial Guardsmen are veteran soldiers...every one of them. They wear armor that can stop a .50 round right to the chest and is equipped with a lasgun that can cleave a man in two. The UNSC has NOTHING of that sorts. They are using pretty much what we will have in like a decade, save of course the ships...much like Battlestar Galactica. They might seem a bit weak but look at what theyre facing and compared against. Chaos demons and their powerful psychic powers? 4 meter tall walking tanks that can shrug off wounds from multiple high energy cannons? Ld 7 might seem weak but when youre facing things like the tyranid swarms or the necrons whose weapons will disentigrate a man within seconds...you have got to be insane with courage. Hell, if I was in their position, Id like have ld 3.

BTW, .75 caliber is huge...its not going to be the size of your fist that that bolt is easily more than 7" long. .50 is enough to kill a man no matter how well armored today, a .75 mass reactive bolt? Forget it, that can annhiliate APCs. 75mm is completely different from .75 caliber...75mm is like a medium sized cannon shell fired from a tank.

Koryphaus
07-05-2008, 07:49
Yeah, my bad, forgot the cal is used in place of inches, was thinking mm for some reason.

Pulse
07-05-2008, 08:47
They can also get stabbed with a knife and die ingloriously. Besides, REAL MEN in REAL LIFE have performed feats such as you describe. 50 Cent was shot like 9 times in the head, lived
Actually he was shot in the hand (a round hit his right thumb and came out of his pinky), arm, hip, both legs, chest, and left cheek.

Hardly "9 times in the head", had to clear that up. :p

borithan
07-05-2008, 10:18
Well, I have to say, if I was going to produce Spartan stats for the TT game it would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8

Identical to a Space Marine. Within the realms of what the Games Workshop system provides us, they would have to be fairly similar. SM are genetically enhanced to be significantly stronger, tougher and faster than a human being. So are Spartans. Saying that they would be games wise have more in common with a guard is daft frankly. Guards are normal human beings. Making a Spartan about the same as a normal human being would be wrong. If S4 means that someone is significantly enhanced over the human norm, then Spartans must be strength 4. Same goes for toughness and initiative. For WS I would give a similar argument. They are meant to be trained far beyond the human norm, and so they need a boost... though I could be persuaded otherwise in this case. Hand to hand combat does not seem to be the norm in the Halo universe, and so, even though they are superior I could be persuaded they might not be superior enough to make it to WS:4. Ballistic skill again should be superior to a normal human, and this case, as ranged combat is the norm in Halo, it certainly should be at least 4. In some particular cases it would be 5, depending on the individual (and I feel Spartans should be approached more individually than SM, as there are fewer of them, and if the UNSC armed forces were present in 40k Spartans would be at least a 0-1 unit choice, if not individual characters in their own right.) Ld wise, again they are meant to be the best and the bravest, and so again superior to human norms... again having to be made equivalent to a marine.

For Master Chief, I would regard him as a Special Character and give him:

WS:4 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:1 Ld:9

As A special character I feel he should have more than 1 wound... but I don't feel that his survivability (beyond plot armour) deserves more than 2. Improved BS, yes, but due to the non-emphasis of hand to hand combat, I don't think it should be improved, same for the number of attacks. Aside from one hit, often stealthily killed, I mostly see Spartans avoiding hand to hand combat if at all possible, and so not getting increased attacks for improved experience.

In fact, while I would see a Spartan and a basic marine being fairly equal (at least within the limits of the system given to us by the TT game) but I think Spartans would improve less over time. I think Spartans and Marines are roughly equal, but I think SM special characters and leaders are far superior to the equivalent Spartan.

On regards to equipment... Both SM armour and Spartan armour is meant to be near immune to small arms fire (I know that the assault rifle can kill a Spartan in Halo, but then a lasgun can kill a SM... when a lasgun is roughly equal in killing power to an autogun, which is essentially a caseless assault rifle. In both cases I would presume the ease that they can kill these figures in-game is for balance purposes)... however, with its increased bulk, I feel the SM armour is probably "more" near invulnerable to small arms. This makes making a stat for Spartan armour difficult. I do feel it should be superior to carapace, but I don't think it is actually superior enough to make it a 3+, so I guess it would have to be 4+, but with the strength enhancement of the armour it is hard to claim Spartans should not be S:4 any more.

The main problem is when you come to the Spartans' shield. Yes, they have protective fields in 40k, but these grant invulnerable saves to units... which does not seem to replicate how the shield works in the Halo universe. There a shield can take certain amount of damage, and then fails, not passing damage onto the person underneath, but can be penetrated pretty much immediately by certain high powered weapons (like the sniper rifle, which is firing 14.5mm sabot rounds, or the 90mm gun on a scorpion... which I would argue would be more like getting hit in the chest by a krak missile than an autocannon.) From what I understand that is not really how forcefields work in 40k, when it is more like they tend to absorb part of the energy of the attack, or in some cases have a certain probability of forming in time to prevent anything passing through... ie a fail in the save means the field did not react in time (or at all) to the blow/projectile etc, rather than the blow was able to puncture the field.... I may be wrong in this point though, as I have not seen much fluff on how they are meant to work in the 40k universe. Now, the sort of damage capacity thing of the shield could be represented, as someone said, as another wound, maybe that could regenerate (but how do you determine if and when it does that?... every turn? How long does a turn represent?). The other possibility is including it in the stats. In that case I would improve the save to a 3+, and maybe give a toughness 4(5), but then I don't think that best represents the way the field works either.

In regards to a number of other points:

Firing the assault rifle in Halo means that a third of the bullets miss... therefore Master Chief should be BS 2 or 3. A shot in 40k does not represent one shot, at least in the case of small arms and other rapid firing weapons. Each dice roll is probably a burst, or even several bursts of fire (in the case of SM probably one burst, as people get less accurate maybe more). That burst that the assault rifle fires, and then misses with a 3rd of the bullets represents a hit. In earlier editions of the game many weapons got a positive to hit modifier at close range, to represent several projectiles flying through the air and increasing your chance of hitting. The point of burst fire (3-4 bullets fired at a high rate of fire) is normally to increase the chance of a hit, not to hit a target with 3 or 4 bullets (though it is possible, particularly at closer ranges).

Same thing goes for someone bringing up the point of plasma rifles burning through Spartan armour in 3 or 4 shots (cant remember the exact number). As long as the Spartan was protected by the armour, even if it was damaged in the process, that represents a successful armour saving throw in a TT game... also there is the point that we have no idea how a covenant plasma rifle would perform against stuff in the 40k universe... obviously not as powerful as a 40k plasma rifle. I would probably make it S:4 AP:5 Assault: 2 Range: 12 inches.

On regards to Ceremite etc being so amazing... 1) as said there is the problem of comparing one imaginary material to another and 2) A Land Raider, with all that fancy stuff in layers, is said by that poster they did of it to be equivalent to 30cm of rolled steel, when the frontal protection of modern tanks are in excess of that by quite some bit. True, you could claim that poster is wrong, but then you will find contradictions in how things perform throughout the fluff (of both of the universes being compared here). Similarly, someone said a SM can take an 120mm shell to the chest... where? The Battlecannon on the Leman Russ, at least according to some things I have seen, is roughly 120mm, and at least on the TT SM armour can't even stand up to the blast of that shell, let alone the actual shell itself.

All in all, within the limits of the game I would say that Spartans and line SM are roughly equal. I do think however that more of the strength and survivability of a Spartan probably comes from his armour than it does for a Space Marine. Without their armour I would go straight for a marine win (unless guns are involved... then I am less sure... probably depends on the gun). With armour I would be less sure. 1:1 I would probably go for a Spartan... not sure I can justify that, just feels to me like he would win (if guns are allowed). Even then, I do feel that if looking at it in more detail a SM would be tougher (not so sure about stronger) than a Spartan (say, if we keep humans at T:3, but open the higher numbers up a bit more widely I would say a Spartan T:5 and a marine at T:7). Even then I feel that while I think a wound that would incapacitate a Spartan would also incapacitate a Space Marine (at least in TT terms), but I think the SM would have a better chance of surviving it and coming back for a later fight.

And I have just wasted I don't know how much of my own time to typing this... I fell so ashamed. And I apologise for my very long post.

Lothlanathorian
07-05-2008, 11:31
You must have big hands then, because .75 caliber is huge for small arms fire. 75mm is almost the breadth of my palm, certainly bigger than my fist in diameter.

.75 cal is very much not 75mm in any way, shape or form (it's actually 19.05mm). A .50 Desert Eagle DOES NOT fire a 50mm bullet my friend. Also, a 12 gauge shotgun fires a .729 cal round, which makes it 18.5mm. So, think self propelled explosive rocket slighty bigger than the round from a .50 cal sniper rifle. Also, the Berret light 50, not a 50mm bullet. In fact, the biggest sniper round I can think of is only 20mm, and that was some form of anti-tank rifle that fired explosive bullets and it was used by a Soviet satellite country. BUT, this has nothing to do with us ******* to Marines, so, sorry for the tangent.

Also of note; 40K is played on what I call an 'educated scale' of 1-10 (I say educated because I don't know the proper term and I LOVE sarcasm). A 1 is downright horrid, a 2 is average, a 3 is average with training, a 4 is way above the norm, most likely enhanced somehow, a 5 is superhuman, a 6 is above and beyond and everything over that is ridiculous. Think of the 40K stats like modifiers in D&D. 1=11/12, 2=13/14, 3=15/16 up until you get to 10=31/32. Or is it 'graduated scale'. I so forget.

alex03
07-05-2008, 11:59
Looking at the pictures, they look just as covered as Guardsmen. Keep in mind that the area of coverage doesn't make it carapace armor, the materials it's made of does. Carapace is made of stuff like ceramite, armaplas and plasteel, and I've not seen or read about any UNSC Marine having that sort of protection.

You're also thinking that Flak armor is bad. It's actually pretty effective.


No, they sound like Elysians or Harakoni to me. How much training do they have? As I've said before, a rookie Guardsman who's already a military veteran is BS 3. They've been in combat many times before and are the elite of their respective planet's PDF.

From GW
Flak armor: Flak armor is made from high-tensile padded facbric usually in the form of a sleeveless jacket which covers the upper torso. Flak is rather uncomfortable and not especially popular despite its low cost. It offers minimal protection against low powered weapons and is most usefull against blasts and explosive impact from near misses.

Carapace armor: Carapace armor is made of rigid plates of armaplas moulded to fit parts of the body. A typical suit of carapace covers the vital chest region, with seperate plates for the arms and legs. The armaplas plates offer quite good protection from low-powered weaponry but are rather heavy.

Halo UNSC marines : the Marines sport armor that is an evolution from that of Halo 2, with heavier and well-articulated woodland-colored full body armor (chest plate, back plate, shoulder plates, elbow pads, and knee pads) over camouflaged fatigues, allowing them to passively camouflage well in jungle terrain.

Now what does it sound more like to you. ;)

as to the ODST point:
gw storm troopers: The storm troopers are the imperial guards best fighting regiment. Unlike other regiments they are recruited from across the imperium from the very best Imperial Guard units. Companies or battalions of Storm Troopers are sent to war zones to bolster the fighting strength of other imperial guard regiments. In action the provide a core of well trained, well equiped squads that can be spread amongst the other imperial guard regiments as needed.

ODSTs:The Orbital Drop Shock Troopers, or "ODST", are an elite special operations unit within the UNSC Marines. Their role on the battlefield is usually described as that of an aggressive shock infantry raid force. The ODST's primary role is as shock infantry assault in deep enemy territory
The Orbital Drop Shock Troopers (ODSTs), colloquially known as Helljumpers are an UNSC Marine Corps Special Forces unit. They are reknowned for their toughness and take immense pride in their "elite" ethos.
ODSTs were operating as early as 2525.[2] The first, and most elite( i mean they're all awesome, but this one is special) division of ODSTs were the 105th Orbital Drop Shock Trooper Division,most known as helljumpers ad his phrase ( jump feet first into the hell ) which quickly gained a reputation as a brutal but effective fighting force. They are often referred to as 'super' and seem to have a class of their own, often coming right after the brutes,elites and spartans.

Barring the personnel of the SPARTAN programs, ODSTs are one of the most effective forms of troops available to the UNSC, and the expectations placed on ODST units made them all-volunteer outfits, with some outsiders regarding such volunteers as 'crazy'.[3] By 2552 their strength had swelled to a larger number of divisions in an attempt to fill the demands of the Human-Covenant War.

Sounds like storm trooper status to me. Plus they were full body armor, just like storm troopers. ;)

Koryphaus
07-05-2008, 14:18
.75 cal is very much not 75mm in any way, shape or form (it's actually 19.05mm). A .50 Desert Eagle DOES NOT fire a 50mm bullet my friend. Also, a 12 gauge shotgun fires a .729 cal round, which makes it 18.5mm. So, think self propelled explosive rocket slighty bigger than the round from a .50 cal sniper rifle. Also, the Berret light 50, not a 50mm bullet. In fact, the biggest sniper round I can think of is only 20mm, and that was some form of anti-tank rifle that fired explosive bullets and it was used by a Soviet satellite country. BUT, this has nothing to do with us ******* to Marines, so, sorry for the tangent.


Yeah, as I said above, my bad:angel:

Copenhagan
07-05-2008, 14:23
On the size on a bolter GW old paint pots were supposedly the same size as a Bolter shell.

On the note of fandom I like the Halo games a lot as I find it to be one of the best FPS ever and I have a I have read all of the halo books. I have also read a number of the Space Marines books and I have read a lot of there fluff over the years. In fluff terms I could no see how the MC would win against a Space Marine in a straight up fight.

On the TT though I would have to agree that they would have the same stats as there is to little difference in there abilities to warrant a major stats difference.

Champsguy
07-05-2008, 15:32
But we aren't using the TT games as a basis, because then we would be comparing fluff against TT, where Marines have to be nerfed or they would mop the floor with everyone.

Exactly, which is why I said we can't use TT rules.


Are you suggesting that SMs fight all day, every day? They might go a decade without seeing any active service besides Fortress Monastery guarding and training. We don't know, we are always give the picture that all that is happening anywhere, any time in the 40Kverse is warfare, it isn't.

Ah yes, Dante... Logan Grimnar is well over 600. Chaplain Cassius is more than 400, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is 10000 (admittedly, he is in a dreadnought). We never hear of anyone but the big characters so its more than reasonable to assume that regular SMs live for centuries.

Your 1st option is wrong from a fluff standpoint, but your second is correct, the majority of the Chapter aren't engaged in the kind of fighting that tends to cause a lot of casualties. They pick their fights very carefully, gauging excactly where to strike to cause the most damage with the least casualties. Of course their enemies are weaker than they are, they are the Adeptus Astartes after all.

And that is exactly my point. Any real degree of casualties would very quickly degrade a Chapter's fighting numbers. So that means that Marines either fight entire campaigns without any combat losses at all (no lucky lasgun hits, no sneaky Lictors, no stray Battle Cannon rounds), or they spend a whole lot of their time not actually fighting.

"Yes, I'm Brother Bob. I'm 300 years old and have centuries of experience."
"Okay, Brother Bob, what have you been doing the last 50 years?"
"I've been guarding this temple. We had some kids come by and throw rocks at it ten years ago, but my chainsword made quick work of those punks."

It just really neuters that whole "centuries of fighting experience" if you find out that they spend most of their time on guard duty, or doing endless drills.

Personally, I would think the "average" Marine would probably have a longer lifespan had he stayed human. Sure, you get characters who live a long long time, but average trooper #4? He's gonna die on some backwater world somewhere when his Rhino is cored by a Railgun.


Ok, in Lord of the Night, Sahaal climbs up the side of a Hive Spire (a distance of many kilometers with a cultist strikeforce hanging off him by ropes. That takes muscle. 30' leap? Thats 10m, people do that in the long-jump all the time, don't think that being genetically enhanced lets you do that.

By 30 feet, I meant up. :) He seems able to do that in the game.

Undoubtedly, Marines are strong. But why stronger than a Spartan? They all seem pretty strong to me. They're in that "stronger than Rambo but less than Spider-Man" category.


And they don't really give a damn about incoming fire. They'd try to avoid it, you only have to read the books to see that, but if it hits them its not a real concern. You're comparing fluff to TT again there.

Actually, I think that's the first time I've used TT as an example. But the point remains that Marines can and do die (in the fluff) to things that are much weaker than them. I mean, really, Orks are running around with big sharp pieces of metal, and they are able to kill Marines with them. While Marine armor can survive hits from Heavy Bolters, flamethrowers, lasers, and lots of other weapons, it can also fail to protect its wearer.

In the books, Marine Power Armor is effective, but it is also nowhere near invulnerable (the books would be really boring if the suits were invulnerable).



Does this have anything to do with the thread?

Yep. It's an example of someone taking the most outrageous example they can find and applying it across the board as though it were the normal course of events.

Lothlanathorian
07-05-2008, 16:12
They're in that "stronger than Rambo but less than Spider-Man" category.

That sentence is just so full of freaking win.

And I do believe that SMs can fight a whole campaign with only one loss. They are supposed to be that good. If the books are going to be readable and the game playable, however, then they can't just have them kicking everything's ass all over the place. I think that most Chapters are actually slightly under-strength. My personal opinion is that they vary between 800 and 1100 men as far as fighting strength is concerned, so they don't always replace their losses as fast as they are acrued.

Copenhagan
07-05-2008, 17:09
I remember reading in one of the older rule books about how many men each model counts as I think it was something like 10 men per model except for Space Marines/Chaos which was one for one. Or something like that.

I also think Chapters have well more the 1000 members. They probably only have 1000 actual battle brothers but they most likely have hundreds of prescouts at any one time.

Rockerfella
07-05-2008, 17:14
I'm not a fan of that really. Kinda means that marines are TEN times more uber than anything else. And whilst they are undoubtedly uber, they're not more uber than an aspect warrior, for example. Stronger, yes, slower, yes. It all balances out.

Müller
07-05-2008, 17:49
I'm not a fan of that really. Kinda means that marines are TEN times more uber than anything else. And whilst they are undoubtedly uber, they're not more uber than an aspect warrior, for example. Stronger, yes, slower, yes. It all balances out.



well... they are

Rockerfella
07-05-2008, 17:51
I've ammended that for you. ;)



well... they are....if you're a fanbuoy

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-05-2008, 21:22
Bolt rounds do not explode on impact. They are 'mass reactive'. They go boom in you, not on you.

Even better then.


Exactly, which is why I said we can't use TT rules.

Of course we can't.

Oh. Wait:


And they don't give a damn about incoming fire? Sorry, I must remember to tell my opponent that next time they shoot me with a bunch of lasguns and I fail a bunch of saves.

What was that?

EDIT:


Oooh, the Imperialis Dominatus patented double standard 'exposer' bomb just landed.

Ouch.

We do our best to keep our armaments top-of-the-line.

Rockerfella
07-05-2008, 21:50
Oooh, the Imperialis Dominatus patented double standard 'exposer' bomb just landed.

Ouch.

Archaon
07-05-2008, 22:09
That sentence is just so full of freaking win.

And I do believe that SMs can fight a whole campaign with only one loss. They are supposed to be that good. If the books are going to be readable and the game playable, however, then they can't just have them kicking everything's ass all over the place. I think that most Chapters are actually slightly under-strength. My personal opinion is that they vary between 800 and 1100 men as far as fighting strength is concerned, so they don't always replace their losses as fast as they are acrued.

Additionally it doesn't mean that all incapacitating wounds are fatal (apart from those battle cannon hits to the head of course :D).

Marines are built to be extremely resilient and even if you cut off a limb or two they have good chances of surviving.. see how far you can go when someone chainsaws off your arm.

Bear in mind that SM tactical operations always tend to put the SM into a position where they can maximise their potential and that also means that they can keep their losses down. They wouldn't assault a heavily fortified position until they have no better options or it simply must be done.

It also depends on the campaign they are undertaking.. they have a full company of recruits waiting to be elevated to full marine status which means that anywhere between 50-100 guys are just waiting in line to don power armor and join one of the battle companies with many more in training back at the chapter base who don't go on active duty yet.

Obviously constant high risk campaigns would whittle down every chapter but i also believe that while it may irk every chapter master they would ask for help from other SM calling in favors or applying to their sense of honor to "help" them out if the chapter is bleeding Marines and can't replenish losses as fast as they can train up new recruits.

Burnthem
07-05-2008, 22:48
Bear in mind that SM tactical operations always tend to put the SM into a position where they can maximise their potential and that also means that they can keep their losses down. They wouldn't assault a heavily fortified position until they have no better options or it simply must be done.

QFT

Remember that the tabletop game and even alot of fluff portrays Marines incorrectly. They will never fight a 'fair' battle if they can help it. IMO a Chapter could easily fight for a long time with minimal losses simply due to the fact that they don't fight pitched battles, they drop from orbit, kick the bejesus out of you and disappear before you can say 'Oooh, thats a pretty meteor shower'.

Discussions like this often have no possible resolution as the Marines in the game/fluff/people minds are so completely different to each other.

Champsguy
07-05-2008, 23:29
Even better then.



Of course we can't.

Oh. Wait:



What was that?


An off the cuff smart-ass comment, of course. ;)

And now I see people trying to distinguish between mere "fiction" and how the marines would "really" fight. Bah.

Lothlanathorian
08-05-2008, 12:02
Well, I say when the real SMS show up to liberate us and introduce us to the Imperial Truth, we'll find out then.

Koryphaus
08-05-2008, 12:22
Well, I say when the real SMS show up to liberate us and introduce us to the Imperial Truth, we'll find out then.

Find out how much they'd own MC? :p

Lothlanathorian
08-05-2008, 12:23
Find out how much they'd own MC? :p

Exactly my friend:D