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WiganUltra
24-04-2008, 18:52
As much fun as this printing discussion is, I thought this was the new SM Codex Rumours thread in the 40k News and Rumours forum??

I really hope this rumoured new rule for SM is not the case. I had thought the DA and BA lists were where they wanted to go with SM, so some kind of special rule for most marines that DA and BA don't get just seems stupid IMO.

I'll also be highly unimpressed if they make the rumoured changes to moral in 5th, then give SM a rule so it doesn't affect them. If morale doesn't do enough in the game, how is that rectified by making the most popular race virtually immune to it? :wtf:

ATSKNF is already good enough.

And 4 of 9 special characters being Ultramarines, while other major chapters miss out altogether is filth IMO. Even if they are the archetypal codex chapter used in the photos and examples, why does that have to mean they get a greater share of special units and characters than other chapters just as relevent to the book.

I wouldn't mind, but for a chapter that supposedly adheres rigidly to all aspects of the codex, what the hell are Tyrannic Veterans and Honour Guard all about?? :eyebrows:

Either they're codex or they're not. Either they get their own book or are covered by Codex: Space Marines. This thing where they're strictly codex, but dominate said codex with a swathe of special characters and unique units is bobbins!

[/rant] :)

Supremearchmarshal
24-04-2008, 19:50
And 4 of 9 special characters being Ultramarines, while other major chapters miss out altogether is filth IMO. Even if they are the archetypal codex chapter used in the photos and examples, why does that have to mean they get a greater share of special units and characters than other chapters just as relevent to the book.

Well 4 of 9 is an improvement over 3 of 5. :p

Besides, there's no way to appease all the SM players out there. Even if there was one for each legion, the Crimson Fists, cursed founding, Mentors etc. etc. would complain they're being left out. Ultras are the flagship chapter and get the most love - simple as that.

Personally I'd like some of the Special Characters to be Veteran Sergeants, Standard bearers, Techmarines etc. instead of just HQ choices (anyone remember Centurius?)


I wouldn't mind, but for a chapter that supposedly adheres rigidly to all aspects of the codex, what the hell are Tyrannic Veterans and Honour Guard all about?? :eyebrows:

Well Tyrannic War Veterans don't really diverge from the codex - they're simply Veterans trained and equipped to fight Tyranids. Veterans do tend to specialise for a certain type of warfare. Some other Chapters probably have them too, but the Ultramarines have the greatest number of them.

I agree about the Honour Guard, though.

Lord Raneus
24-04-2008, 20:18
Hopefully, Chaplain Cassius will have been made so that he doesn't suck beyond all mortal comprehension.

Honor Guard are simply an elite bodyguard unit, no different from a Command Squad. I'm sure the Codex Astartes makes provisions for the Chapter's best warriors to defend its very heart and symbol, its Chapter Banner, when it is deployed on the field.

If the new rule "makes BA players very happy", it HAS to apply to BA; simple as that. I'm sure this new rule will apply to all Marines, simply because a Dark Angel/Blood Angel/Space Wolf/Black Templar is still a Marine.

brain_dead_1st
24-04-2008, 20:30
Erm... white scars do have special characters... JUST NO RULES OR NAMES!!!!
Magnus Calgar is what?? chapter master of ultra, where did he appear... out of no where! why?? cause there is a position called chapter master which needed filling, i see room for scars to FINALLY get their own character!!
I also hope there is room in the codex for white scars players cause they are an awesome chapter and cant be lost like the ulthwe craftworld (no more bs4 or ws4 :mad: )

What we really need now is less discussion and more SPIES!!!!

MajorWesJanson
25-04-2008, 01:36
Smurfs lost their First company and nearly their home world. A bit more elaborate command squad/honor guard and some vets who took Preferred enemy: Tyranids and some special ammo are not that big a deviation as a lot of other chapters out there.

Lord Raneus
25-04-2008, 01:58
I actually don't think the Honor Guard are deviations at all, and I have stated such in another thread.

Tyrannic War Vets are a slight deviation, but really insignificant. However, the Fists have no deviation that I know of.

Hellebore
25-04-2008, 02:29
Smurfs lost their First company and nearly their home world. A bit more elaborate command squad/honor guard and some vets who took Preferred enemy: Tyranids and some special ammo are not that big a deviation as a lot of other chapters out there.

Yes but the Ultramarines are always paraded as THE codex chapter.

It is ridiculously hypocritical to have THE codex chapter also deviate from the codex.

Hellebore

Temprus
25-04-2008, 02:47
Yes but the Ultramarines are always paraded as THE codex chapter.

It is ridiculously hypocritical to have THE codex chapter also deviate from the codex.
GW can always Ret-Con this too. :rolleyes:

The Dude
25-04-2008, 03:28
Sicarius was a WD model a year or two ago. Had twin lightning claws as I recall. Here are some pictures (http://www.minivault.com/Sicarius.htm).

Homer

:eyebrows:... I know. I just don't think he needs including in the new dex.


Yes but the Ultramarines are always paraded as THE codex chapter.

It is ridiculously hypocritical to have THE codex chapter also deviate from the codex.

Hellebore

I have always failed to see how having Veterans in the First Company who happen to be very experienced at fighting Tyranids in any way deviates from the Codex Astartes :confused:

redbaron998
25-04-2008, 05:26
Anyway, to be honest i dont see why Imperial Fists need a Special Character (they are my one and only space marine army) because we follow the codex to the letter (unlike the Ultramarines)

Whitch is ironic as the Fists didnt want the Codex to begin with...and now the smurfs who were all about the codex are breaking from it a lil....if ony their primarchs could see them now...for shame.

Russell's teapot
25-04-2008, 14:42
Lets not derail this thread shall we?

It wasn't an attempt to. Simply pointing out that whatever changes are brought to Smurfs will result in some sort of backlash.

'Abusable' (in GWs eyes - whatever they are) parts will be removed & will be replaced by certain new stuff. Looking at the most recent codexes is a valid way of looking at what the new Smurf Codex will look like. If they go the way of DA, BA, C:CSM, Orks & Eldar, then special characters will likely allow access to 'FoC' warping & will not be 'special' characters anymore.

If I were to take a punt, there will be a mix of BA & DA with some of the restrictions in the Ork codex thrown in. For Example I would expect that taking Lysander (rather than a Champion in TA) will warp to FoC to allow some Terminators as troops, I doubt it will be a full-fledged Belail change, but more like the Ork codex, allowing a certain number of Terminator units to become troops.

About this and the other tit-bits wee are being thrown around, I guess we'll see (but dammit I want a HellHound Raider!)

Askari
25-04-2008, 15:41
That didn't need to be brought up. I think it's safe to say that it's been pretty well documented here on warseer, that the majority of Chaos players, don't actually have a huge problem with the new codex.

Lets not derail this thread shall we?

Though it is indeed ironic.

Suffice to say, these changes don't really surprise me. The Frags and Kraks as standard, it was obvious that'd come. Neither does the possible loss of Traits, I expect the Imperial Guard will also lose their Doctrines also.

The Inquisitor
25-04-2008, 16:27
In addition, the IA for the SM is supposed to be alot more rigid than other organizational structures, such as those for the IG. While I like the traits system, i can also see inconsistenies that come up with this system and the whole concept of SM. It always seemed (at least to me) that for the most part everyone followed the IA, with some notable exceptions (DA, BA, SW, etc.), and even in those situations, they don't vary that much.

Thus, it would be reasonable to think that a major problem with the traits system is the creation of deviant chapter arrangements, rules, etc. as the standard instead of the exception, and thus starts to redefine what SM are.

I agree with the above: the standard marines should follow the IA even more that these other chapters, and they likely want to get back to that. I think this also allows them to standardize the force 'better' and more accurately determine how balanced the force will be.

Just some thoughts.

Hellebore
26-04-2008, 01:21
I have always failed to see how having Veterans in the First Company who happen to be very experienced at fighting Tyranids in any way deviates from the Codex Astartes :confused:

They specialised. They became tyranid fighting experts over the normal 'balanced' codex approach.

There's no way that the Tyrannic War veterans were able to learn to kill tyranids the way they do without it impacting on their abilities in other areas - if it didn't have an impact then all marines would have a 'favoured' enemy and training in other areas too.

I would have rathered the TWVs get Fearless against tyranids and nothing else - Fearlessness doesn't indicate training deviation so they could stick to the codex and still have some uniqueness.

Do they still have a storm bolter option? Their equipment may also be noncodex.

It's basically all Cassius' fault anyway. The chapter put up great resistance because even they saw it as a breach in the codex. Somehow he persuaded them that it was alright to have veterans that specialise in fighting one alien mennace. The codex wants you to be profficient in fighting everything rather than only one thing and the Ultramarines treat it as the Koran or Bible, completely sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

If none of that counts as codex deviation then it becomes a slippery slope - does using two special weapons in a tactical squad deviate?


Hellebore

The Dude
26-04-2008, 01:36
They specialised. They became tyranid fighting experts over the normal 'balanced' codex approach.

There's no way that the Tyrannic War veterans were able to learn to kill tyranids the way they do without it impacting on their abilities in other areas - if it didn't have an impact then all marines would have a 'favoured' enemy and training in other areas too.

I would have rathered the TWVs get Fearless against tyranids and nothing else - Fearlessness doesn't indicate training deviation so they could stick to the codex and still have some uniqueness.

Do they still have a storm bolter option? Their equipment may also be noncodex.

It's basically all Cassius' fault anyway. The chapter put up great resistance because even they saw it as a breach in the codex. Somehow he persuaded them that it was alright to have veterans that specialise in fighting one alien mennace. The codex wants you to be profficient in fighting everything rather than only one thing and the Ultramarines treat it as the Koran or Bible, completely sacrosanct and beyond reproach.

If none of that counts as codex deviation then it becomes a slippery slope - does using two special weapons in a tactical squad deviate?


Hellebore

Good points, and I think it is the interpretation, much like all religious texts, that causes ambiguity.

I suppose I was thinking more of the fluff side than the rules side. Having them doesn't deviate from the Codex, but if their training is different, then yes, that's a problem.

I agree with your point though. Simply making them Fearless would be better. That represents them having faced the beast and lived, rather than spent time training how to fight it exclusively.

Hellebore
26-04-2008, 01:43
Good points, and I think it is the interpretation, much like all religious texts, that causes ambiguity.

I suppose I was thinking more of the fluff side than the rules side. Having them doesn't deviate from the Codex, but if their training is different, then yes, that's a problem.

I agree with your point though. Simply making them Fearless would be better. That represents them having faced the beast and lived, rather than spent time training how to fight it exclusively.

:eek:

Can't we...you know... FIGHT or something? Just a little bit?

Damn civilised posters *grumble grumble* what has Warseer become?

:p

They should definitely have something, but I'm not sure different training techniques and weapons was the right thing to do, these are the ULTRAMARINES for Emperor's sake! They WROTE the ruddy book.

It certainly looks like the Imperial Fists are the only chapter (mentioned) that sticks rigidly to the codex anymore..

Hellebore

The Dude
26-04-2008, 01:47
:eek:

Can't we...you know... FIGHT or something? Just a little bit?

Damn civilised posters *grumble grumble* what has Warseer become?

:p

They should definitely have something, but I'm not sure different training techniques and weapons was the right thing to do, these are the ULTRAMARINES for Emperor's sake! They WROTE the ruddy book.

It certainly looks like the Imperial Fists are the only chapter (mentioned) that sticks rigidly to the codex anymore..

Hellebore

Thinking some more about it, they would be better represented as either Veterans accompanied by, or an Honour Guard for Cassius. Let him confer some special rules for Nid fighting. IMO they probably don't need to be in the book at all.

Hellebore
26-04-2008, 01:49
That'll work.


DOH! I did it too!


Hellebore

Varath- Lord Impaler
26-04-2008, 02:19
Hmm being Tyrannic war veterans, i dont think they have specific training as much as they managed to survive the Tyrannic wars.

This means that they must be pretty good at killing nids, right?

Also, The Ultramarines break their own codex all the time! They have access to Vassals (Imperial Guard regiments recruited from Ultramar), they have a small Imperial fleet.

Lots of little rules breaks which shows the ultimate hypocracy of the glory boys.

Nope, the Imperial Fists are the Epitomy of the Codex Astartes, not the Ultramarines.

KazenX
26-04-2008, 02:49
To be fair the Imperial Fists modified their gene seed so they don't have a bretchers gland or sus-an membrane so no acid spiting (not too tactically important) but the ability to go into suspended animation is pretty useful. There is also the fact that they are seige specialists with specialist training, tools, and back in 3rd a unique set of rules for them. If the codex was about the Fists instead of the Ultras you can bet they would have their own rules, units, and the like.

All that said I would like to see the codex have more of the other chapters in it like the Fists and White Scars.

Templar Ben
26-04-2008, 02:59
Where did you get that they modified their geneseed? They have the organs but they don't function for IF or any IF successors. I have never heard it was due to IF modifying it themselves.

The Emperor's Champion
26-04-2008, 03:49
Tyrannic War Veterans are just Veterans that survived the various Tyrannic Wars and picked up Nid fighting tactics in the process.
If anything the Ultramarines have goes against the Codex it would be the Honour Guard because I couldn't tell you where they fit into the normal Codex organization at all.

The hundreds of Ultramar Imperial Guard regiments aren't against the Codex at all. Space Marine homeworlds aren't required to raise Imperial Guard regiments because the Chapter uses the world for recruitment. The Ultramarines are so rediculously efficient at running Ultramar that they voluntarily raise hundreds of Guard regiments all the time. The Ultramar Imperial Navy fleet is there because 8 star systems needs a lot more ships to guard it than even the massive Ultramarines Fleet can provide all the time.

Hellebore
26-04-2008, 04:02
The quote from the codex is:



[...]and they immediately began rebuilding the 1st company. With the successive assaults of the tyranid hive fleets, the Ultramarines saw regular battle and the experiences that made veterans of their warriors inevitably came from fighting the Tyranids. Under the personal direction of chaplain cassisu, a new corp d'elite began to emerge. [...] In the past it had been argued that it was contrary to the teachings of the great Codex Astartes for space marines to specialise to this degree, but two factors weighed against this. First, the necessity of having a full strength Veteran Company available and second the deeply-felt hatred for the tyranids within the chapter. Over time fully half the 1st company was made up of Cassius' proteges.


They deliberately allowed their elite veteran company to over specialise in one field of combat. The orks are pushing in toward Ultramar, but half the Ultramarines' veterans have specialised in fighting tyranids.

What it looks like is a vigilante crusade by Cassius, letting his personal feelings about the tyranids affect chapter doctrine and even go so far as to break with the codex itself.

Hellebore

spacemonkey
26-04-2008, 06:04
What it looks like is a vigilante crusade by Cassius, letting his personal feelings about the tyranids affect chapter doctrine and even go so far as to break with the codex itself.
Indeed, which is why I agree with you and The Dude that the Tyrannic War Veterans would be better left out of the new codex (which it looks like they are) and better represented via some special rule given by Chaplain Cassius.

The Emperor's Champion
26-04-2008, 06:06
If you've read the longer article it mentions that they debated it for a long time and came to the conclusion that Guilliman had never reckoned with the threat of the Tyranids and so had not factored them into the Codex Astartes. They came to assume that had the Tyranids been around during Guilliman's time he would have trained his warriors to fight such a dangerous and unpredictable foe.
Essentially Tyranid Hunters are kinda the 1st Amendment approved to the Codex Astartes, it just hasn't been spread past the Ultramarines yet.

Varath- Lord Impaler
26-04-2008, 06:07
Hmmm well if that is the fluff then the name 'Tyrannic war Veterans' doesnt make much sense.

Also, the Honour guard isnt a break from the Codex. Think of them as a normal Command squad.

They have the Standard Bearer and the Company Champion.

Makes sense to me.

CaptainSicarius
26-04-2008, 06:47
If you've read the longer article it mentions that they debated it for a long time and came to the conclusion that Guilliman had never reckoned with the threat of the Tyranids and so had not factored them into the Codex Astartes. They came to assume that had the Tyranids been around during Guilliman's time he would have trained his warriors to fight such a dangerous and unpredictable foe.
Essentially Tyranid Hunters are kinda the 1st Amendment approved to the Codex Astartes, it just hasn't been spread past the Ultramarines yet.

Well, I must say this explanation doesn't entirely satisfy me. Even in Guilliman's era, there was a multitude of dangerous enemies around, and the Ultramarines have never specialised in fighting any of them. I'd imagine we would have Heresy Veterans, Ork Veterans or something along those lines then. I agree with Hellebore and the Dude that I'd like to see the TWV left out of the next codex, and just have Cassius developed to fit his background, but not the entire Chapter fluff. I like to see Ultramarines as really conservative Codex boys, and as such I'd never field TWV myself.
BTW, I believe the Honour Guard squads are actually in the Codex, or at least, the Axes are mentioned as a decoration.

Arkley
26-04-2008, 08:52
:eek:

They should definitely have something, but I'm not sure different training techniques and weapons was the right thing to do, these are the ULTRAMARINES for Emperor's sake! They WROTE the ruddy book.

It certainly looks like the Imperial Fists are the only chapter (mentioned) that sticks rigidly to the codex anymore..

Hellebore

Ok on that note I'll arm my all my squads as they are on the boxes/books as they MUST codex standard. heaven forbid we are allowed any bit of flexability.

Guilliman wrote the codex not the Ultramarines and even then it included tactics from every other Primarch... (Yes probably even the Traitor Primarchs).

But if you are going to "quote" Codex please send me a link to said book :)

Mmmm Siege Specialists is not Codex.... Arent the Imperial Fists Veterans set up as Devastator Squads? - Very Codex.


Also, the Ultramarines break their own codex all the time! They have access to Vassals (Imperial Guard regiments recruited from Ultramar), they have a small Imperial fleet.

Lots of little rules breaks which shows the ultimate hypocracy of the glory boys.

Ok never heard this one before, cant ever remember that owning a planet/system is breaking the codex if thats true the amount of Codex Chapters that break it are extremely high.

Is does say Ultramarines maintain so many regiments for the IG, but never does it say that they are vassels.



Nope, the Imperial Fists are the Epitomy of the Codex Astartes, not the Ultramarines.

Yeah sure :rolleyes:. Comment above.



If anything the Ultramarines have goes against the Codex it would be the Honour Guard because I couldn't tell you where they fit into the normal Codex organization at all.

Honour Guard are drawn from the whole chapter, there is not Ad-Hoc unit (Like the Death Company etc)... They are simply Ultramarines that have proven themselves in battle to a higher degree.



The hundreds of Ultramar Imperial Guard regiments aren't against the Codex at all. Space Marine homeworlds aren't required to raise Imperial Guard regiments because the Chapter uses the world for recruitment. The Ultramarines are so rediculously efficient at running Ultramar that they voluntarily raise hundreds of Guard regiments all the time. The Ultramar Imperial Navy fleet is there because 8 star systems needs a lot more ships to guard it than even the massive Ultramarines Fleet can provide all the time.

Exactly but because the Ultramarines do it, its a break in the codex.


If you've read the longer article it mentions that they debated it for a long time and came to the conclusion that Guilliman had never reckoned with the threat of the Tyranids and so had not factored them into the Codex Astartes. They came to assume that had the Tyranids been around during Guilliman's time he would have trained his warriors to fight such a dangerous and unpredictable foe.
Essentially Tyranid Hunters are kinda the 1st Amendment approved to the Codex Astartes, it just hasn't been spread past the Ultramarines yet.

Again because its Ultramarines we arent allowed to adapt. Would people be saying the same old crap if it was the Imperial Fists or best example the Crimson Fists that deserve units for their hated enemy.


Well, I must say this explanation doesn't entirely satisfy me. Even in Guilliman's era, there was a multitude of dangerous enemies around, and the Ultramarines have never specialised in fighting any of them. I'd imagine we would have Heresy Veterans, Ork Veterans or something along those lines then. I agree with Hellebore and the Dude that I'd like to see the TWV left out of the next codex, and just have Cassius developed to fit his background, but not the entire Chapter fluff. I like to see Ultramarines as really conservative Codex boys, and as such I'd never field TWV myself.
BTW, I believe the Honour Guard squads are actually in the Codex, or at least, the Axes are mentioned as a decoration.

There was never an enemy as deadly and as threatening as the Tyranids... We lost our 1st Company and a planet to the Tyranids, for what to protect the rest of the Imperium. And I consider the Tyranids a bigger threat.

But it really boils down to this... People dont like seeing Ultramarines why? Because every new player as a general rule play them as their first army...

WiganUltra
26-04-2008, 09:38
IIRC, Tyrannic War Veterans aren't just veterans who are expert against 'Nids because they survived the wars. Both in rules and fluff, they are deliberately maintained squads of specialists, kept seperately from other 1st Company squads and with specialist abilities and equipment. That is a departure from the codex.

Also remember that the codex isn't just about organisation. It supposedly contains details on how to fight every possible conceivable enemy and situation. So it's highly probable even the tactics used by Tyrannic Veterans are not in the codex.


If you've read the longer article it mentions that they debated it for a long time and came to the conclusion that Guilliman had never reckoned with the threat of the Tyranids and so had not factored them into the Codex Astartes. They came to assume that had the Tyranids been around during Guilliman's time he would have trained his warriors to fight such a dangerous and unpredictable foe.
Essentially Tyranid Hunters are kinda the 1st Amendment approved to the Codex Astartes, it just hasn't been spread past the Ultramarines yet.

Well neither did Guilliman have to consider hunting the Fallen, or dealing with marines who succumb to the Black Rage. If he had, possibly he would have created Deathwing, Ravenwing and Death Company, so maybe these should also be allowed in the codex??


Also, the Honour guard isnt a break from the Codex. Think of them as a normal Command squad.

Don't remember the fluff of these guys, but at the very least they are equipped and named differently to a codex command squad. Non-codex.


Ok on that note I'll arm my all my squads as they are on the boxes/books as they MUST codex standard. heaven forbid we are allowed any bit of flexability.

The fluff says the chapter follows Guilliman's texts to the letter. I'm sure that does allow some flexibility, but fluff-wise they should be organised, equipped, and use tactics exactly as described in Guilliman's codex.


Honour Guard are drawn from the whole chapter, there is not Ad-Hoc unit (Like the Death Company etc)... They are simply Ultramarines that have proven themselves in battle to a higher degree.

And given special equipment etc...



But it really boils down to this... People dont like seeing Ultramarines why? Because every new player as a general rule play them as their first army...

Whatever. I can't speak for other people, but I only know one person who did Ultramarines as their 1st army. I also like Ultramarines myself. I just don't like how they have been given extra units totally contrary to the fluff GW still uses, and how Codex: Space Marines has become Codex: Ultramarines, citing the Ultras as the epitomy of a codex chapter, when clearly they no longer. IMO, the Ultras would actually be much cooler for NOT having these deviations. Their veterans could still have 'Nid related adornments on their armour, and their command squads have especially ornate armour and weapons without them maintaining specific codex-breaking units.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic now (my fault - sorry :)), but I'm afraid I have nothing to add to get back on topic.

Supremearchmarshal
26-04-2008, 12:47
IIRC, Tyrannic War Veterans aren't just veterans who are expert against 'Nids because they survived the wars. Both in rules and fluff, they are deliberately maintained squads of specialists, kept seperately from other 1st Company squads and with specialist abilities and equipment. That is a departure from the codex.

Again, isn't this the whole point of the Veteran company? The elite units of an elite army should be tailored to fight a specific threat. Terminators are just one such example. Honestly I don't know what's the point of a Veteran company if it's identical to a Tactical company.

Varath- Lord Impaler
26-04-2008, 14:16
Heh, but the Guardsmen are under the command of the local imperial governor (who happens to be Calgar), not the Ultramarines. They're exploiting a loophole, not directly breaking the law.

I know, but its funny that the Ultramarines are the rules lawyers of the 40k universe. They have perverted the intention of the Codex to gain advantages. While denouncing others who do the same.



Ok never heard this one before, cant ever remember that owning a planet/system is breaking the codex if thats true the amount of Codex Chapters that break it are extremely high.

Is does say Ultramarines maintain so many regiments for the IG, but never does it say that they are vassels.


Oh im so sorry, they arent Vassals by name, but if the Ultramarines call, they will follow. That sounds like a Vassal to me.

Owning a planet isnt a problem, but raising Imperial Guard troops as Vassals (in intention, rather than name) is against the codex.


Yeah sure . Comment above.


So i guess your a hardcore Ultramarines player, then :P


The hundreds of Ultramar Imperial Guard regiments aren't against the Codex at all. Space Marine homeworlds aren't required to raise Imperial Guard regiments because the Chapter uses the world for recruitment. The Ultramarines are so rediculously efficient at running Ultramar that they voluntarily raise hundreds of Guard regiments all the time. The Ultramar Imperial Navy fleet is there because 8 star systems needs a lot more ships to guard it than even the massive Ultramarines Fleet can provide all the time.

It is a break in the codex not because the troops are raised, but because they are under direct control of the Space Marines!

That is contravening the entire PURPOSE of the Codex Astartes. The separation of power within the Imperium.


Exactly but because the Ultramarines do it, its a break in the codex.

Yep, and if anyone else did it the Ultras would come down on them like a ton of bricks.


Again because its Ultramarines we arent allowed to adapt. Would people be saying the same old crap if it was the Imperial Fists or best example the Crimson Fists that deserve units for their hated enemy.


Well the Imperial Fists dont really have a chosen foe since they are a crusading chapter.

The Crimson fists, however, the rage against the orks isnt a training doctrine, as such, it is ingrained within their memories since their entire history is gone! every scrap of it has been destroyed
all that is left is the knowledge of the orks, and what they have done.


There was never an enemy as deadly and as threatening as the Tyranids... We lost our 1st Company and a planet to the Tyranids, for what to protect the rest of the Imperium. And I consider the Tyranids a bigger threat.

The Tyranids are no bigger a threat than any other of the Xenos races.



But it really boils down to this... People dont like seeing Ultramarines why? Because every new player as a general rule play them as their first army...

Actually, i dont care about that. But if (or when) i play Ultramarines im going to do them how they should be. They need to be ornate and COVERED with Roman/Greek like Iconography.

Basically the masters of the chapter will be used as Veteran sergeants :P

Arkley
26-04-2008, 14:51
I know, but its funny that the Ultramarines are the rules lawyers of the 40k universe. They have perverted the intention of the Codex to gain advantages. While denouncing others who do the same.


Ok I'll bite here... When have others been denounced?



Oh im so sorry, they arent Vassals by name, but if the Ultramarines call, they will follow. That sounds like a Vassal to me.

Owning a planet isnt a problem, but raising Imperial Guard troops as Vassals (in intention, rather than name) is against the codex.

But if another chapter do this its Fine?

Quote Codex all you like, if you have not got said book in front of you how do you know the content... The Codex is I would sayto be in all intent the 40k Universe equivalent to the Art of War.



So i guess your a hardcore Ultramarines player, then :P

I am a hardcore Ultramarines Fan since Rogue Trader... Before they got posted as THE CODEX Chapter.




It is a break in the codex not because the troops are raised, but because they are under direct control of the Space Marines!

That is contravening the entire PURPOSE of the Codex Astartes. The separation of power within the Imperium.

Mmm Guilliman said he did not want 1 person to have as much power as Horus did... Do you really class the power Calgar has to the power Horus had?

The Ultramarines are a Shadow of the Legion that was on the Great Crusade...

But again you are quoting from a book that nobody has read or even seen.



Yep, and if anyone else did it the Ultras would come down on them like a ton of bricks.

One chapter springs to mind the Mortifactors and even then did the Ultramarines declare war here?




Well the Imperial Fists dont really have a chosen foe since they are a crusading chapter.

The Crimson fists, however, the rage against the orks isnt a training doctrine, as such, it is ingrained within their memories since their entire history is gone! every scrap of it has been destroyed
all that is left is the knowledge of the orks, and what they have done.

Crusading chapter? You sure there I always thought most of them stayed in the Phalanx that orbits earth. YOu sure you arent confusing them with Black Templar?

Ok this is a part that made me laugh doctrines?... The Ultramarine company of 100 Marines over half of these are TWV - Their skills are based on the sole fact they survived the Tyrannic War on Macragge. How are these marines any different from the Crimson Fists who like Ultramarines have been locked in war with a deadly Xenos race.

Doctrine implies that its a common practice... i.e as a scout you learn to kill Nids... Sorry I call BS on this one.

But I could say this in another way...

Calgar speech to new 1st Co.

"Ok guys welcome to the 1st Co. Lets start by saying you are not allowed to hate the Tyranids. You are not allowed to use any knowledge gained fighting Tyranids etc...so what I'm trying to say is you have to forget that they wiped out your Battle Brothers, that they destroyed 1 of our worlds...

You dont expect any other chapter to forget their hatred for others but you do with Ultras?

Examples...

Crimson Fists - Orks - Deserve a unit akin to TWV.
Space Wolves - Thousand Sons - Apart from Bjorn should they still have this?
Scythes of the Emperor - For whats left of them derserve to have the TWV rules apply to the whole chapter.


The Tyranids are no bigger a threat than any other of the Xenos races.

They are from the Ultramarines point of view, thats my opinion.

Temprus
26-04-2008, 17:34
I just don't like how they have been given extra units totally contrary to the fluff GW still uses, and how Codex: Space Marines has become Codex: Ultramarines, citing the Ultras as the epitomy of a codex chapter, when clearly they no longer.
Considering that the first Codex: Space Marines was actually called Codex: Ultramarines and the two following it are UM based, I think you have a problem or two with your argument. ;) People forget that the Codex is not JUST for organizing the layout of a chapter, it contained battle tactics and strategy, along with other useful advice. As Arkley said, it is the 40k version of "The Art of War". It was only started by Robbie, it has been expanded by those that followed after him ever since (see page 10 of Codex: Ultramarines if available to you). :D Besides, "Games Workshop" is the High Gothic phrase for "just ret-con it away". :angel:

Supremearchmarshal
26-04-2008, 18:09
I know, but its funny that the Ultramarines are the rules lawyers of the 40k universe. They have perverted the intention of the Codex to gain advantages. While denouncing others who do the same.

I agree to an extent. The advantages they gain are certain to be used for the good of the Imperium, while other chapters may get all sorts of funny ideas if they came to power. Hypocritical? You bet. But also quite effective - without this change they would have likely been destroyed by the Tyranids, leaving the Imperium without one of its most loyal SM chapter.

I actually do like this, because it gives the Ultramarines a flaw. A chapter without a flaw is boring. Another nice touch is that the Ultramarines are very pragmatic - they won't put honour before all (e.g. in the Iron Cage incident where they saved the hard-headed Fists, or when they negotiate with the Tau in Fire Warrior).

baphomael
26-04-2008, 19:52
I see a lot of fluff moaning about the Ultramarines. Yes, Guillimen created the Codex Astartes and yes, they like to think they rigidly adhere to it, denouncing those who do not. But, the point is that it highlights the hypocrisy of the Ultramarines, the Imperium and rigid dogma in general - the Ultramarines, shining paragons of Astartes virtue, dont adhere to the Codex as much as they would like to be seen to - tyrannic war veterans? the Honour Guard? a dirty great Empire within the Imperium? Yes, there is an inherant hypocrisy here - and thats the point. Rigid dogma always seems to go hand-in-hand with hypocrisy (medieval christianity - the crusades, despite 'turn the other cheek', Bishops copping off with prostitutes despite the vow of celibacy, modern radical Islam and its extremists despite the Qu'ran stating 'there shall be no compulsion in religion' and so forth). The 40k design team like making little allusions to such things and the Ultramarines are one of them.

The Emperor's Champion
26-04-2008, 21:58
Except that none of what they do actually goes against the Codex.
You like to think the Codex Astartes is rigid, but it isn't.

Archangel_Ruined
26-04-2008, 23:11
I think we'd all have a better idea of what it is and isn't if GW wrote it, as it is we only know of inferences to it. Anyway, this is massively off topic. I want to know what's happening to my army, god knows I've got enough of them to field whatever changes they write.

WiganUltra
26-04-2008, 23:46
Ok, figured I'd post this here so as not to further derail the SM rumours thread.

Sorry to not get things going properly myself, but could a Mod please move/copy the relevant posts from the news and rumours thread so what people have said already can be seen?

Gorgoroth
27-04-2008, 00:07
They are the grand poobar cookie cutter, hear them roar...

They are the sit at front of class kiddies, emperors pet etc etc and how all other chapters 'should' organize themselves.

They should get some ability/trait that reflects their organisation. Perhaps extra leadership or moral bonus? Maybe something like the close order drill (but different) as per codex IG?

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-04-2008, 00:16
Thank you, ill continue to reply as i would in the last thread though.


Ok I'll bite here... When have others been denounced?

Hmmm, well if they dont police the chapters, who does? There must be someone and im sure iveread fluff of the Ultras regulating the Codex.


But if another chapter do this its Fine?


Which other chapter have their own IMPERIAL fleet (not Marine, IMPERIAL) and their own Imperial Guard regiments?



Quote Codex all you like, if you have not got said book in front of you how do you know the content... The Codex is I would sayto be in all intent the 40K Universe equivalent to the Art of War.

no, it isnt.

Your asking me to do something which is impossible. But not too impossible, luckily, since we all know what the INTENT of the Codex Astartes was. It was to seperate ALL of the aspects of the Imperium, The guard, the marines, the fleets, the administratum, etc. All seperate entities so that when one cell goes traitor, the others can destroy it easily, and it cannot function.



I am a hardcore Ultramarines Fan since Rogue Trader... Before they got posted as THE CODEX Chapter.


nice going!



Mmm Guilliman said he did not want 1 person to have as much power as Horus did... Do you really class the power Calgar has to the power Horus had?

You dont understand the Imperial mindset. The Imperium is COMPLETLY paranoid about one person gaining too much power. With the facilities Calgar has access too (and dont forget a huge amount of Space Marine chapters have their Gene stock from the Ultras and from Guilliman) he could easily become another warmaster if he went traitor.

Itsa case of who polices the army?

Noone can.



The Ultramarines are a Shadow of the Legion that was on the Great Crusade...

But again you are quoting from a book that nobody has read or even seen.

Im not quoting from, i am showing intention. If you dont believe that separation of power was the purpose of the Codex Astartes then you dont believe a very vital part to the 40k background for marines.


One chapter springs to mind the Mortifactors and even then did the Ultramarines declare war here?

Not quite sure.



Crusading chapter? You sure there I always thought most of them stayed in the Phalanx that orbits earth. YOu sure you arent confusing them with Black Templar?


Space Borne chapters are known as Crusading chapters. Imperial fists have honours against 9 Alien races, they need to be out there taking the fight to them to be able to do this.



Ok this is a part that made me laugh doctrines?... The Ultramarine company of 100 Marines over half of these are TWV - Their skills are based on the sole fact they survived the Tyrannic War on Macragge. How are these marines any different from the Crimson Fists who like Ultramarines have been locked in war with a deadly Xenos race.


Over half?!

All the fluff says that the first company was destroyed!!

knocking out half of them isnt destroyed at all.

Also, that is one company of your Chapter.


Doctrine implies that its a common practice... i.e as a scout you learn to kill Nids... Sorry I call BS on this one.

And im sure every marine does this, as well as learning how to kill other Xenos races too.



You dont expect any other chapter to forget their hatred for others but you do with Ultras?


One of your worlds? Pah, thats nothing. It really is.

There would be Hatred there, im not doubting that. But only ONE Company was involved there.



Crimson Fists - Orks - Deserve a unit akin to TWV.

This is different to the Imperial fists. they didnt just lose a world they lost their ENTIRE HISTORY. They lost most of their Chapter (not company, Chapter), they lost Rynns world.


Space Wolves - Thousand Sons - Apart from Bjorn should they still have this?

Of course not, the Space Wolves walked in and beat the thousand sons to a bloody pulp.
Job well done.


Scythes of the Emperor - For whats left of them derserve to have the TWV rules apply to the whole chapter.

And they can through traits :) i dont know their fluff so im not going to comment.


They are from the Ultramarines point of view, thats my opinion.

Maybe they are. But if they specialise it creates a precedent for other chapters to specialise aswell.

How will the Tyrannic war vets work if, say, Tau begin to fly in?

But all of this isnt to my point.

My point is that the Ultramarines are the only Space Marine Chapter who actively recruit Vassal Guardsmen and own an Imperial Fleet (and their own small Empire if you look at it in that way) so they arent really 'Codex' at all.

WiganUltra
27-04-2008, 00:55
Thank you, ill continue to reply as i would in the last thread though.

Good plan.

Tbh, I don't remember reading much about the Ultras regarding IG and Imperial Fleet vassals, so I'll keep my own comments to other aspects of the Chapter, though what you mention is quite interesting.


I see a lot of fluff moaning about the Ultramarines. Yes, Guillimen created the Codex Astartes and yes, they like to think they rigidly adhere to it, denouncing those who do not. But, the point is that it highlights the hypocrisy of the Ultramarines, the Imperium and rigid dogma in general - the Ultramarines, shining paragons of Astartes virtue, dont adhere to the Codex as much as they would like to be seen to - tyrannic war veterans? the Honour Guard? a dirty great Empire within the Imperium? Yes, there is an inherant hypocrisy here - and thats the point. Rigid dogma always seems to go hand-in-hand with hypocrisy (medieval christianity - the crusades, despite 'turn the other cheek', Bishops copping off with prostitutes despite the vow of celibacy, modern radical Islam and its extremists despite the Qu'ran stating 'there shall be no compulsion in religion' and so forth). The 40k design team like making little allusions to such things and the Ultramarines are one of them.

Certainly food for thought there. My gut reaction to the Ultramarines' apparent hypocrisy is to dislike them for it and be against what they do. But from a wider fluff perspective, such things would inevitably go on in any human society, and it's quite an interesting way of presenting such an issue for the designers to ingrain such hypocrisy without openly referring to it.

Assuming of course it is deliberate. And I still don't like it ;)

ThorOdensson
27-04-2008, 01:05
Over half?!

All the fluff says that the first company was destroyed!!

knocking out half of them isnt destroyed at all.

Also, that is one company of your Chapter.


The entire 1st company was destroyed. The Ultramarines rebuilt it by heavily seconding Marines to the Death Watch. By the time the first company reached full strength, half of the 1st company marines came through traditional training practises and promotion the other half came through operation with the Death Watch where most of their combat operation were against Tyranids, from this they learnt more effective tactics and weapon load outs for fighting the Tyranid threat. The Chapter had a massive debate as to wheter they absorb the Tyranid War Veterans into the 1st company as traditional veteran squads or to kep them how they were. After much deliberation they decided to keep them as they were after an address by a surviving member of the Scythes of the Emperor. Over time the Ultramarines 1st company will revert back to a traditional 1st company for the most part whilst the normal route for promotion takes place. The loses from the battle of Macragge dictated the accellerated rebuild of the1st company.

Varath- Lord Impaler
27-04-2008, 01:13
Certainly food for thought there. My gut reaction to the Ultramarines' apparent hypocrisy is to dislike them for it and be against what they do. But from a wider Fluff perspective, such things would inevitably go on in any human society, and it's quite an interesting way of presenting such an issue for the designers to ingrain such hypocrisy without openly referring to it.

Assuming of course it is deliberate. And I still don't like it

Oh i know the Hypocracies, and that makes me like them all the more.

For some reason i love bastards (as in the sneaky horrible person sense, rather than the literal meaning)

Shining Ultramarines being the best knights and marines of everything ever, eh. Thats alright.

Hypocritical ultramarines using the wording in the codex astartes to find loopholes and expoit them.

sweet.



The entire 1st company was destroyed. The Ultramarines rebuilt it by heavily seconding Marines to the Death Watch. By the time the first company reached full strength, half of the 1st company marines came through traditional training practises and promotion the other half came through operation with the Death Watch where most of their combat operation were against Tyranids, from this they learnt more effective tactics and weapon load outs for fighting the Tyranid threat. The Chapter had a massive debate as to wheter they absorb the Tyranid War Veterans into the 1st company as traditional veteran squads or to kep them how they were. After much deliberation they decided to keep them as they were after an address by a surviving member of the Scythes of the Emperor. Over time the Ultramarines 1st company will revert back to a traditional 1st company for the most part whilst the normal route for promotion takes place. The loses from the battle of Macragge dictated the accellerated rebuild of the1st company.


AH! thank you very much!

The poster i was replying to said that only half the first company was destroyed.

Sarlock
27-04-2008, 03:37
I don't see what all the fuss was about the ultramarine tyrannic war veterans being changes from the codex

they are essentially the same as normal vetrans...they can only have normal special weapons a flamer and a heavy bolter...these weapons are especially good at killing nids...but they can also kill anyone else well to!!!

and they have the stats of normal veterans...just they are better at killing nids because they have practice

hey if you had to fight nothing but nids for 10s of 100's of years i think you'd be pretty good at killing them 2

doesnt make you a non-conforming codex chapter???

MvS
27-04-2008, 06:11
I think that the Tyrannic War Veterans are more in keeping with the original spirit of the Codex Astartes rather than the final document.

Because Guilliman wrote it so long ago, before Tyranids were on the scene, naturally it does not include references on how best to combat them or how seriously to take them as a threat to the Imperium. Just because the Codex doesn't state explicitly that specialisation is okay if it is to fight a unique threat that invades human space in a manner and on a scale unlike any other xenos species doesn't mean it ISN'T okay to do so.

It's a question for Marneus Calgar, the Librarium, the Reclusiam and the Ultramarine Captains to wrestle out between them while holding on the the mantra What-Would-Roboute-Do? I guess they answer they came up with wasn't 'just the same as Roboute always did'.

Arkley
27-04-2008, 07:42
Hmmm, well if they dont police the chapters, who does? There must be someone and im sure iveread fluff of the Ultras regulating the Codex.

When you find it please let us know I have never heard of this... Like I said when they met the Mortifactors they were more revilied than anything else. But this did not stop them fighting side by side and neither did they declare war.



Which other chapter have their own IMPERIAL fleet (not Marine, IMPERIAL) and their own Imperial Guard regiments?

Here I assume you are referring to the Tyrannic War when the Fleet in that section of space was put under Calgars control... There again is the difference bewteen permanant command and temp which is what this was.



Your asking me to do something which is impossible. But not too impossible, luckily, since we all know what the INTENT of the Codex Astartes was. It was to seperate ALL of the aspects of the Imperium, The guard, the marines, the fleets, the administratum, etc. All seperate entities so that when one cell goes traitor, the others can destroy it easily, and it cannot function.

Ok why are the Guard, =][= and SoB not fighting using the Codex as guidelines? Simple the Codex Astartes was for one force the Space Marines (Clue is in the name) again I think you are thinking of the High Lords of Terra where IIRC there are 12 of these so power is always split and never in the hands on 1 person.

INTENT of the Codex? The Intent was to have a answer for every combat situation - The Codex is full of formations, comabt manuveors, insignia suggestions etc... Thats the INTENT of the Codex... Never forget this thou Guilliman did not write this on his own he complied said book and added his own ideas... How many strategies in this book are or can be attributed to others ie Horus.



You dont understand the Imperial mindset. The Imperium is COMPLETLY paranoid about one person gaining too much power. With the facilities Calgar has access too (and dont forget a huge amount of Space Marine chapters have their Gene stock from the Ultras and from Guilliman) he could easily become another warmaster if he went traitor.

Ok you assume that all these chapters with Ultramarines geneseed even 2nd founding chapters are going to side with the Ultramarines... That simply will not happen, my evidence is simple things change the Mortifactors are a prime example of this, they are now more like a Death Cult than a 2nd Founding Chapter thats just left the Ultramarines. Their chapter masters are more Chaplain/Cpatains.



Itsa case of who polices the army?

Noone can.


I always thought it was for the =][= to stick their beak into everything, they did well vs the Soul Drinkers and I'm sure there are more.



Im not quoting from, i am showing intention. If you dont believe that separation of power was the purpose of the Codex Astartes then you dont believe a very vital part to the 40k background for marines.

Again I think you have confused the Codex and the High Lords of Terra...



Over half?!

All the fluff says that the first company was destroyed!!

knocking out half of them isnt destroyed at all.

Also, that is one company of your Chapter.

You never read my post very well... What I said was over half of the 1st Co is TWV I never said only half was destroyed. To quote the entry in the codex.

"The Ultramarines would never allow losses, however grievous, to deflect them from their duty and they immediately began to rebuild the 1st Company. With the successive asaults of the Tyranid hive fleets, the Ultramarines saw regular battle and the experiences that made veterans of their warrirors inevitably came from fighting the Tyranids, Under the personal direction of Chaplain Cassius, a new corps d'elite began to emerge. Known as Tyrannic war veterans, these new squads had been argued that it was contrary to the teachings of the great Codex Astartes for Space Marines to specialise to this degree, but two factors weighed against this, First, the necessity of having a full strength Veteran company available and second the deeply-felt hatred fro the Tyranids within the Chapter. Over time, fully half of the 1st Company was made up of Cassius' protégés."



One of your worlds? Pah, thats nothing. It really is.

There would be Hatred there, im not doubting that. But only ONE Company was involved there.

One world is too many :).

Yes only one company and only over half of it... Hence why we have a unit.

As for your comment vs Tau, there is a piece of fluff regarding the 1st Company wasting them on Nimbosa, There might have been TWVs there too :P



This is different to the Imperial fists. they didnt just lose a world they lost their ENTIRE HISTORY. They lost most of their Chapter (not company, Chapter), they lost Rynns world.

Ok I assume you mean the Crimson Fists. And this is no different from the Scythes of the Emperor who have had their homeworld of Sotha stripped to bedrock and the Chapter left with virtually nothing.




My point is that the Ultramarines are the only Space Marine Chapter who actively recruit Vassal Guardsmen and own an Imperial Fleet (and their own small Empire if you look at it in that way) so they arent really 'Codex' at all.

Again this is not exactly actively done... Its more of a case that Ultramar is run very well and are able to maintain many regiments of IG ready to goto war at a moments notice.

Quote 2nd Edition Codex - Ultramarines

"Ultramar is the realm of the Ultramarines within the greater realm of humanity that is the Imperium. Its worlds do not pay the Imperium's tithes. Instead they contribute directly towards the upkeep of the Ultramarines Chapter. The rulers of the individual worlds of Ultramar are feudal lords of the Master of the Ultramarines. This is why the Ultramarines' leader is also known as the Lord of Ultramar. Just like other worlds in the Imperium, each world of Ultramar raises regiments for its own defence. Most worlds in the Imperium are obliged to provide regiments for the Imperial Guard when required, but Space Marine homeworlds are an exception. In the case of Ultramar however, the Ultramarines rule so efficiently and are so prosperous that they maintain several hundred regiments ready to join the Imperial Guard when needed. As a result regiments have fought all over the galaxy, often in campaigns alongside the Ultramarines themselves. Each world of Ultramar also provides Space Marine recruits for the Ultramarines Chapter itself. Throughout Ultramar proud citizens point to public statues of famous Ultramarines who were born to local families. Amongst the older aristocratic dynasties it is a matter of considerable esteem to provide recruits for the Space Marines. For a family to have provided a renowned hero, or an actual Master of the Chapter is a great honour bringing considerable fame for generations."

What you are saying it we should effectively leave our worlds defenceless? Macragge is our homeworld in the realm of Ultramar. 1000 Marines can only guard soo much :)

Again to your Fleet comment, It was as I said before placed under the command of Clagar only during the Tyrannic War.


Oh i know the Hypocracies, and that makes me like them all the more.

For some reason i love bastards (as in the sneaky horrible person sense, rather than the literal meaning)

Shining Ultramarines being the best knights and marines of everything ever, eh. Thats alright.

Hypocritical ultramarines using the wording in the codex astartes to find loopholes and expoit them.

sweet.

I dont see any Loopholes exploited here... They choose to maintain IG Units they dont have to... No Loophole there.



The poster i was replying to said that only half the first company was destroyed.

Answered above :)


I don't see what all the fuss was about the ultramarine tyrannic war veterans being changes from the codex

they are essentially the same as normal vetrans...they can only have normal special weapons a flamer and a heavy bolter...these weapons are especially good at killing nids...but they can also kill anyone else well to!!!

and they have the stats of normal veterans...just they are better at killing nids because they have practice

hey if you had to fight nothing but nids for 10s of 100's of years i think you'd be pretty good at killing them 2

doesnt make you a non-conforming codex chapter???

I agree totally.... :) But there are other chapters that could and should use that unit ie

Scythes of the Emperor and any other Chapter that has suffered at the hands of Nids.

Hellebore
27-04-2008, 13:27
What most people can't seem to wrap their heads around is that the Codex isn't a rigid thing at all. The Codex has a solution for every situation and a dozen variations of that plan for every variation of that situation.
People seem to think the Codex Astartes is the size of the actual Codex: Space Marines when it's actually a whole massive encyclopedia of warfare.

In all probability there is a very important section of the Codex saying that IF a new enemy presents itself that the Codex doesn't seem to reckon with an amendment should be carefully considered and added if deemed necessary.

Guilliman had the thing written to cover just about every situation under the sun, even the ones he couldn't think of.

And yea, we are very pragmatic; courage and honor only gets you so far before it gets you killed.

Problem: The ultramarines do not have units with Preferred Enemy: Orks or Eldar or Chaos or Tau or Necrons. They ONLY have Preferred enemy Tyranids.

The codex is all about balance and the ultramarines threw that out the window when the SPECIALISED in fighting ONE alien.

Hellebore

stahly
27-04-2008, 13:59
I think basically the problem with Ultramarines is that the latest additions to their fluff where written by Graham McNeill who has a very own idea what Ultramarines are about when you look at his Uriel Ventris saga. They said they wanted to flesh out Ultramarine imagery when they did the last codex.
But I think they did in the wrong way. Rules wise they should not get new units but characterful special characters and rewards for beeing codex, such as free Veteran Seargents, cheaper basic marines or a higher morale or something like that. To show that they know the codex inside out and to balance the traits of other chapters.

Templar Ben
27-04-2008, 14:07
I think that the Tyrannic War Veterans are more in keeping with the original spirit of the Codex Astartes rather than the final document.

Because Guilliman wrote it so long ago, before Tyranids were on the scene, naturally it does not include references on how best to combat them or how seriously to take them as a threat to the Imperium. Just because the Codex doesn't state explicitly that specialisation is okay if it is to fight a unique threat that invades human space in a manner and on a scale unlike any other xenos species doesn't mean it ISN'T okay to do so.

It's a question for Marneus Calgar, the Librarium, the Reclusiam and the Ultramarine Captains to wrestle out between them while holding on the the mantra What-Would-Roboute-Do? I guess they answer they came up with wasn't 'just the same as Roboute always did'.

Well we have established that I am all for Chapters holding onto the old ways. LOL I think the bigger issue is how they almost had a second civil war because Dorn, Vulkan, and Russ didn't want to break up the legions and the issue at hand was having over 1000 men under arms. The Ultramarines have since skirted that by having IG and navy units under their control. The issue truly wasn't do we paint the left or right kneepad to show the squad (even though that is covered) but instead the issue was how do we prevent anyone from presenting a clear threat of military action from within. Separating IG from Navy from Marines has been thrown out the window.


Here I assume you are referring to the Tyrannic War when the Fleet in that section of space was put under Calgars control... There again is the difference bewteen permanant command and temp which is what this was.

Do you know who normally commands the fleet? The issue is UM have an empire within the Imperiam and through vassals they have control of IG regiments and a fleet.


Ok why are the Guard, =][= and SoB not fighting using the Codex as guidelines? Simple the Codex Astartes was for one force the Space Marines (Clue is in the name) again I think you are thinking of the High Lords of Terra where IIRC there are 12 of these so power is always split and never in the hands on 1 person.

The IG have a different Codex also written by Robbie. SoB were created 6,000 years later so I don't know if they have anything similar. Actually the purpose was so that no one individual would wield the power of a legion. The UM have carefully crafted the situation to break the spirit if not the letter.


INTENT of the Codex? The Intent was to have a answer for every combat situation - The Codex is full of formations, comabt manuveors, insignia suggestions etc... Thats the INTENT of the Codex... Never forget this thou Guilliman did not write this on his own he complied said book and added his own ideas... How many strategies in this book are or can be attributed to others ie Horus.

Negative. You should actually read the relevant section. The intent was to prevent another Heresy by preventing an individual from having the power of a legion. It says that it "also dealt with..." meaning that was something else covered but wasn't the main thrust.


Ok you assume that all these chapters with Ultramarines geneseed even 2nd founding chapters are going to side with the Ultramarines... That simply will not happen, my evidence is simple things change the Mortifactors are a prime example of this, they are now more like a Death Cult than a 2nd Founding Chapter thats just left the Ultramarines. Their chapter masters are more Chaplain/Cpatains.

Then again while the UM were repulsed the Mortifactors held them in high esteem. That is neither here nor there for me as I stated above they have broken the intent by maintaining their empire.


I dont see any Loopholes exploited here... They choose to maintain IG Units they dont have to... No Loophole there.

Huge loophole because they are not wearing power armor.


I agree totally.... :) But there are other chapters that could and should use that unit ie

Scythes of the Emperor and any other Chapter that has suffered at the hands of Nids.

They don't get into the details as much about the tactics and organization but to me it does seem odd that something was allowed but they never used that option for any other threat they have faced. Necrons are a good candidate.


Problem: The ultramarines do not have units with Preferred Enemy: Orks or Eldar or Chaos or Tau or Necrons. They ONLY have Preferred enemy Tyranids.

The codex is all about balance and the ultramarines threw that out the window when the SPECIALISED in fighting ONE alien.

Hellebore

This was in the old thread so I just moved it down here.

Keadaen
27-04-2008, 14:59
to be honest I think there perfectly fine as is, let them have a couple special units and thats about it they should be vanilla they are the original vanilla, every marine knows the codex astartes (obvious exception such as space wolves and such) why would they get anymore bonuses then a average marine.

Arkley
27-04-2008, 15:34
Well we have established that I am all for Chapters holding onto the old ways. LOL I think the bigger issue is how they almost had a second civil war because Dorn, Vulkan, and Russ didn't want to break up the legions and the issue at hand was having over 1000 men under arms. The Ultramarines have since skirted that by having IG and navy units under their control. The issue truly wasn't do we paint the left or right kneepad to show the squad (even though that is covered) but instead the issue was how do we prevent anyone from presenting a clear threat of
military action from within. Separating IG from Navy from Marines has been thrown out the window.

And what about the Black Templar and Space Wolves who maintain more than 1000 Marines Codex or not?

If the Ultramarines where that big of a threat dont you think The Inquistion would have launched a crusade by now?

You keep going on about Ultramarines owning the Navy... Calgar was placed in control of the Imperial Navy of Ultima Segmentum during the Tyrannic Wars. If thats owning the Navy well great lets take out the Tau and Orks nearby .:rolleyes:



Do you know who normally commands the fleet? The issue is UM have an empire within the Imperiam and through vassals they have control of IG regiments and a fleet.

Not the Ultramarines, or more so our Master of the Fleet - We own our Fleet nothing more nothing less, apart from the Tyrannic War were we had over all control of the Imperial Navy Fleet in our Segment of Space.



The IG have a different Codex also written by Robbie. SoB were created 6,000 years later so I don't know if they have anything similar. Actually the purpose was so that no one individual would wield the power of a legion. The UM have carefully crafted the situation to break the spirit if not the letter.

Carefully crafted a situation thats been going on since the Heresy? Again you can't compare Ultramar for today to the Ultramar of the Legion. Not even close.




Negative. You should actually read the relevant section. The intent was to prevent another Heresy by preventing an individual from having the power of a legion. It says that it "also dealt with..." meaning that was something else covered but wasn't the main thrust.

Have you got a link to this? please.

Do you actually compare the the Military Strength the Ultramarines have now to the time of them being a Legion?



Then again while the UM were repulsed the Mortifactors held them in high esteem. That is neither here nor there for me as I stated above they have broken the intent by maintaining their empire.

You say they have broken the intent of the Codex, again where does it say that its against the codex to have more than 1 planet (If this was a problem wouldnt the Emperor himself told Guilliman?), where does it say its against the codex to maintain IG Regiments? For Space Marine Homeworlds this is not madatory like most Imperial Worlds, however there is no law against it.

Would we be having the same discussion if say the Imperial Fists did this? I doubt it.




They don't get into the details as much about the tactics and organization but to me it does seem odd that something was allowed but they never used that option for any other threat they have faced. Necrons are a good candidate.

Because we have not lost worlds to Necrons. we havent lost companies to any xenos apart from Nids.

You are talking of over 250 years of War vs the Tyranids off and on. The Tyranids are in my Eyes the biggest threat for Ultramarines, No enemy had ever landed on Macragge let alone inflicted the damage they have done.





Problem: The ultramarines do not have units with Preferred Enemy: Orks or Eldar or Chaos or Tau or Necrons. They ONLY have Preferred enemy Tyranids.

The codex is all about balance and the ultramarines threw that out the window when the SPECIALISED in fighting ONE alien.

50 men approx and you call that balance gone... Wow... Its not like its the whole chapter.

Templar Ben
27-04-2008, 15:50
And what about the Black Templar and Space Wolves who maintain more than 1000 Marines Codex or not?

They are not Codex. That is the issue, they have rejected the codex. Ultramarines are the Codex chapter.


If the Ultramarines where that big of a threat dont you think The Inquistion would have launched a crusade by now?

So if I haven't been convicted that means I couldn't have ever broken the law?


You keep going on about Ultramarines owning the Navy... Calgar was placed in control of the Imperial Navy of Ultima Segmentum during the Tyrannic Wars. If thats owning the Navy well great lets take out the Tau and Orks nearby .:rolleyes:

They owned it before just at arm's length.

You don't seem to have the same view of the Lord of Big Mac. Prior to being given a fleet he still ordered said fleet as a vassal.


Not the Ultramarines, or more so our Master of the Fleet - We own our Fleet nothing more nothing less, apart from the Tyrannic War were we had over all control of the Imperial Navy Fleet in our Segment of Space.

Actually their empire had its own fleet.


Carefully crafted a situation thats been going on since the Heresy? Again you can't compare Ultramar for today to the Ultramar of the Legion. Not even close.

Sure I can, they have millions under arms, only 1000 are in power armor now.


Have you got a link to this? please.

Do you actually compare the the Military Strength the Ultramarines have now to the time of them being a Legion?

Do I have a link? Of course not. We don't give links to GW IP. Perhaps you could crack open your Codex: Space Marines and read the section on the Heresy and what the purpose of the Codex was.

I do compare it. Was it more then? Sure because the UM didn't bother defending Terra but they have a huge network and you are missing that.


You say they have broken the intent of the Codex, again where does it say that its against the codex to have more than 1 planet (If this was a problem wouldnt the Emperor himself told Guilliman?), where does it say its against the codex to maintain IG Regiments? For Space Marine Homeworlds this is not madatory like most Imperial Worlds, however there is no law against it.

Your last line is the most telling, "there is no law against it". That is why people say UM are being the ultimate rules lawyer. Ha ha, I doesn't say I can't so woo hoo I am doing it. The intent is clear and they are breaking the spirit.


Would we be having the same discussion if say the Imperial Fists did this? I doubt it.

Perhaps not because the Imperial Fists rejected the Codex initially. It was written by the UM and the UM have often been called the most strict adherents to the Codex. Are you now saying that perhaps they have rejected it but we only care because it is UM?

Leftenant Gashrog
27-04-2008, 16:23
where does it say its against the codex to maintain IG Regiments? For Space Marine Homeworlds this is not madatory like most Imperial Worlds, however there is no law against it.


You've just hit the nail on the head there, well sortof. You both appear to be operating under a flawed understanding of what the Imperial Guard actually is, the Imperial Guard are the units maintained and controlled by the Departmento Munitorum. Individual worlds are required to raise Planetary Defence Forces but these are NOT Imperial Guard as they are maintained and commanded by the planetary government. Most Imperial worlds are also required to tithe a certain portion of their PDF to the Imperium, when this happens the unit in question is turned over to the Departmento Munitorm and in doing so ceases to be PDF and becomes Imperial Guard.

Codex Ultramarines isn't being poetical when it says "they maintain several hundred regiments ready to join the Imperial Guard when needed." its stating a matter of fact: whilst under the command of the Domain of Ultramar they are not IG but PDF.

We know that as a result of Guillimans reforms the Astartes have no authority over the Imperial Guard, and we know that Astartes worlds are exempt from the manpower tithe, but I've never read anything to suggest that Astartes are exempt from the requirement to raise a PDF, or that they are restricted from commanding them.

Arkley
27-04-2008, 16:44
They are not Codex. That is the issue, they have rejected the codex. Ultramarines are the Codex chapter.

And I still maintain the Ultramarines have not broken the codex... Codex does not state Space Marines maintaining IG regiments or more than one Planet a problem.



So if I haven't been convicted that means I couldn't have ever broken the law?

Not talking about your criminal record here mate...

Simple facts state the Inquistion dont need a ton of evidence to declare traitors... If the Ultramarines where a threat to the Imperium you can bet your ass the Inquisition would have done something about that by now, and you know this.



They owned it before just at arm's length.

You don't seem to have the same view of the Lord of Big Mac. Prior to being given a fleet he still ordered said fleet as a vassal.

Actually their empire had its own fleet.


This still makes me laugh... For the last time the Ultramarines maintain their own Fleet which defends Ultramar they do not control the Imperial Navy of Ultima Segmentum.

So any Imperial force put under command of a Chapter Master or even a Captain of a Chapter is automatically a vassal? Or does this only apply to Ultramarines?

Or the defence of Ichar IV when Calgar was made the Supreme Commander does that make every force under him his Vassal?



Sure I can, they have millions under arms, only 1000 are in power armor now.


I would take the power of the Legion (At its height approx 250k or more) Over approx 600 IG Regiments. I don't see the same power you do.




Do I have a link? Of course not. We don't give links to GW IP. Perhaps you could crack open your Codex: Space Marines and read the section on the Heresy and what the purpose of the Codex was.

Sorry I thought I deleted the line asking for a link :p

Ok by that letter Guilliman did not want one man to control the power of a Legion. And to this day no man has. But I hear you cry Calgar or any Master of the Ultramarines have... Sorry I dont see Calgar in the same ballpark as Horus or the Emperor



I do compare it. Was it more then? Sure because the UM didn't bother defending Terra but they have a huge network and you are missing that.

I like that... Didnt bother defending... We didnt have much choice did we Horus made sure we were out of the way, as he knew Guilliman would not turn and the Ultramarine Legion would cause his war more problems.




Your last line is the most telling, "there is no law against it". That is why people say UM are being the ultimate rules lawyer. Ha ha, I doesn't say I can't so woo hoo I am doing it. The intent is clear and they are breaking the spirit.

Ultimate rules lawyers? First I have heard of that... Ok you say the intent is clear, Intent for what breaking a rule thats not there? Spirit of the codex?

The Codex Astartes refers to the reorganisation of the Space Marine Legions, tens of thousands strong, into the more manageable and far less powerful thousand strong chapters, and laid down rules relating to the speed of genetic manipulation received by recruits. This document also laid down tactical doctrine, equipment specifications, and identification markings, and is regarded as a holy text by many Space Marines. However, some Chapters do not follow the Codex Astartes. These are referred to as Non-Codex Chapters.

That to me is the Spirit of the Codex... Examples of the Spirit of the Codex being broken would be what Uriel Ventris did...



Perhaps not because the Imperial Fists rejected the Codex initially. It was written by the UM and the UM have often been called the most strict adherents to the Codex. Are you now saying that perhaps they have rejected it but we only care because it is UM?


And by what I have quoted above the Ultramarines have stayed true to the Codex and its Spirit and have punished those who transgressed against it.

Supremearchmarshal
27-04-2008, 17:39
Or how about allowing them to take along some of their huge defense auxilia - if anything, this is their largest advantage over any other chapter.

Carlos
27-04-2008, 17:46
Cant Ultramarines have every squad led by a member of the honour guard, including WS5 and power weapons? How is this not awesome?

Bunnahabhain
27-04-2008, 17:49
Or how about allowing them to take along some of their huge defense auxilia - if anything, this is their largest advantage over any other chapter.

Good idea, with one tiny little flaw.

That it would need the planetry auxillia to be useful. They'll be Guardsmen in all but name, so that then needs a reasonable Guard codex, rather than one designed to have the Guardsmen die in droves, to make marines look good. Do you see the problem yet....

Hellebore
28-04-2008, 00:46
50 men approx and you call that balance gone... Wow... Its not like its the whole chapter.

What the hell does that have to do with it?

The fact that even ONE of them was given sanction to specialise is against the codex.

When the Ultramarines encountered the Tau, did they create Damocles Gulf War Veterans?

Did they created Pavonis War Veterans to combat the necrons?

No, because they incorporated the tactics used to fight them INTO their doctrine, not superceded it with entirely new doctrine.

If the codex astartes does not require the formation of ork specialist units, or eldar specialist units, then it sure as **** doesn't require tyranid specialist units.

When a new enemy is encountered, you INCORPORATE tactics used to fight them into your existing doctrine. You know, instead of having an anti-xenos training day where it is broken up into 1:5 ork, 1:5 eldar, 1:5 necron, 1:5 tau, 1:5 h'rud components, you break it up into 1:6 ork, 1:6 eldar, 1:6 necron, 1:6 tau, 1:6 h'rud, and 1:6 tyranid components.

In order for the tyrannic war veterans to become SPECIALIST tyranid fighters they needed to, I don't know, SPECIALISE in fighting them. Instead of the 1:6 combat training they would have had to let their training in other xenos suffer.

As I recall the new ork codex goes on to say that the orks are moving in on Ultramar from Charadon. But the Ultramarines have HALf their most experienced warriors lacking in ork fighting because they chose to specialise in fighting tyranids.


Please, this is just doubletalk excuses to allow the Ultramarines to keep their 'Codex Pure' status whilst throwing new units at them.

I can't wait to see the other half of the 1st company become Pavonis War veterans because of the 'emergent threat' of the necrons.

EDIT: The Ultramarines follow the codex astartes and specialist training is not included in that (or the Ultramarines would have had ork and eldar specialist squads for the last 10,000 years). So either they follow the codex or they don't/ You can't have it both ways. You don't get to proudly display your 'codex compliant' badge whilst using unit training and formation that was not described in the codex astartes.

Remember, this has nothing to do with common sense, this has to do with the sacrosanct codex astartes, a book written by the Ultramarines' own primarch. Creating units your primarch never thought of is admitting his word was flawed.

Tyrannic War Veterans are counter the codex,it says so right in the quote I put up before. The only arguement they could use to justify it was 'well if Guilliman was here, he would have done it too' :rolleyes:

Because Guilliman was reknown for creating units to fight specific threats, we've got evidence right in the codex astar...oh wait...:rolleyes:

Hellebore

Arkley
28-04-2008, 01:18
To be honest Hellebore I was waiting for your reply but I am not even going to bother discussing the point with you... We will NEVER agree. At least with Templer Ben there was a point to reply, with you I can't be assed with your sarcastic replies or tones.

You see it as a break or whatever I see it as the situation demanded it at the time.

kthxbye.

The Dude
28-04-2008, 02:26
You see it as a break or whatever I see it as the situation demanded it at the time.

At the time, maybe, but the fact remains that the Ultramarines reportedly continue to support these squads. This is why Hellebore and I believe simply having them Fearless against Nids would be better.

If they truly are veterans OF the Tyrannic War, they wouldn't continue to focus on fighting Tyranids (as the Codex demands balance in training), and would simply have a resistance to the horror of facing such a relentless and ravenous foe.

Therefore, I repeat my assertation that simply giving Cassius a Special rule that he drops on any squad he’s with would be much better ;).

That and a little retcon to say that the TWV are all actually combatants of that war, and not squads subsequently raised to fight Nids specifically. Cassius can remain a Nid Hater, but I don't think he should have convinced them to break the Codex.

Nazguire
28-04-2008, 04:47
You are talking of over 250 years of War vs the Tyranids off and on. The Tyranids are in my Eyes the biggest threat for Ultramarines, No enemy had ever landed on Macragge let alone inflicted the damage they have done.


Just want to be pedantic but the Word Bearers destroyed three sister planets of Calth, irradiated Calth and slaughtered hundreds of Ultramarines during the Heresy...far more damage then what the Tyranids have ever done..:p

Arkley
28-04-2008, 08:51
Just want to be pedantic but the Word Bearers destroyed three sister planets of Calth, irradiated Calth and slaughtered hundreds of Ultramarines during the Heresy...far more damage then what the Tyranids have ever done..:p

Three planets? I thought it was just an attack on Calth.... Have you got a reference to this as I would like to read it myself. Please.

Maybe we can have a USR - Hatred - Word Bearers :P It happened too long ago.


At the time, maybe, but the fact remains that the Ultramarines reportedly continue to support these squads. This is why Hellebore and I believe simply having them Fearless against Nids would be better.

Having the whole chapter fearless or just the 1st Company?



If they truly are veterans OF the Tyrannic War, they wouldn't continue to focus on fighting Tyranids (as the Codex demands balance in training), and would simply have a resistance to the horror of facing such a relentless and ravenous foe.

See to this end GW pigeon-holed the TWVs by saying that for the past XX years these Marines have done nothing but fight Tyranids.

So Would it be better to give Ultramarine Veterans the ability to "buy" the skill of Tyranid Hunters?



Therefore, I repeat my assertation that simply giving Cassius a Special rule that he drops on any squad he’s with would be much better ;).

That and a little retcon to say that the TWV are all actually combatants of that war, and not squads subsequently raised to fight Nids specifically. Cassius can remain a Nid Hater, but I don't think he should have convinced them to break the Codex.

Thats the crux I do agree it would be probably better to have Cassius with a special rule like 2nd Edition. I would not have a problem there...

This breaking the Codex is the bit I can't understand...

If you compare Cassius' crimes so to speak to Uriels' who has done the most damage to the chapter?

Uriel ran off to lead a Deathwatch team and left his men under leadership of Learchus , he did other things too = Banishment.

Cassius forms a Corps D'Elite within the Ultramarines = Nothing.

Who do I think? Personally Cassius.

My problem is I am soo used to seeing people do nothing but redicule and poke fun at my army because of want if a better word brats join the hobby and play Ultramarines majority of the time as a starter army.

Then I come on here and see people wanting to grind the Ultras down to nothing... So I am very sceptical as to wether people care for the history or just see it as an opportunity to have a go at the Ultramarines...

So The Dude, Nazguire and Templar Ben forgive me :)

Templar Ben
28-04-2008, 11:40
So The Dude, Nazguire and Templar Ben forgive me :)

Without nerds arguing there would be no internet. ;)

Sarlock
29-04-2008, 05:08
Hellebore I think you've missed the point completely

the way I interpreted the tyrannic war veterans and what I read about them is that because they fought the nids for so long they acquired very good skills at killing them

I dont think however that they still train specifically to combat nids anymore... the veterans that are still alive are just inherrently good at killing them

I dont think they continue to specialise their training to combat nids...they train as normal marines following the codex

well thats just my opinion on them and I think some ultra sympathisers would agree with me

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 05:45
Think about it like this:

The Ultramarines have been fighting the arch arsonist of Charadon for thousands of years. They have been fighting the Tyranids for the last few hundred.

Why are there no Specialist Preferred Enemy Ork Ultramarines units?

The tyranids are a very new threat, this means that they've not been around for GUilliman to write tactics against, but also that there have been many many other alien races that the Ultramarines have been fighting for MUCH longer that they haven't created specialst fighters for.

When the words "Under Cassius personal supervision" and 'Corps d'elite' and "a departure for the Ultramarines" are used to describe them, one can't help but see it as exactly what it appears to be.

Trying to justify the ultramarines having non codex units as still being codex is like trying to justify the orks having units with BS 6 and still calling them orks.

If people want non codex chapters they shouldn't be playing the Ultramarines - you can't be THE codex chapter and then NOT be at the same time.


EDIT: Or, how about Mcneil's own words in his ultramarine's novels. Ventris gets kicked out of the chapter because he went against the codex. Yet what he did was NOTHING compared to personally supervising the specialisation of half the 1st company to fight one alien menace. He violated PROCEDURE for christ sake. Cassius has done a little more than that.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
29-04-2008, 06:45
Think about it like this:

The Ultramarines have been fighting the arch arsonist of Charadon for thousands of years. They have been fighting the Tyranids for the last few hundred.

Why are there no Specialist Preferred Enemy Ork Ultramarines units?

The tyranids are a very new threat, this means that they've not been around for GUilliman to write tactics against, but also that there have been many many other alien races that the Ultramarines have been fighting for MUCH longer that they haven't created specialst fighters for.

When the words "Under Cassius personal supervision" and 'Corps d'elite' and "a departure for the Ultramarines" are used to describe them, one can't help but see it as exactly what it appears to be.

Trying to justify the ultramarines having non codex units as still being codex is like trying to justify the orks having units with BS 6 and still calling them orks.

If people want non codex chapters they shouldn't be playing the Ultramarines - you can't be THE codex chapter and then NOT be at the same time.


EDIT: Or, how about Mcneil's own words in his ultramarine's novels. Ventris gets kicked out of the chapter because he went against the codex. Yet what he did was NOTHING compared to personally supervising the specialisation of half the 1st company to fight one alien menace. He violated PROCEDURE for christ sake. Cassius has done a little more than that.

This all depends on a very strict interpretation of what it means to be "against the Codex", though. And I would think there are legitimate questions over such a view.

Is the Codex Astartes a document to be interpreted absolutely literally under all circumstances, or should it be interpreted anew to reflect changing times? Is the original intention of the authors relevant or not?

Hopefully without derailing the thread into P&R, there are persuasive analogies with the varying methods of interpretation for real-life religious texts.

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 06:55
This all depends on a very strict interpretation of what it means to be "against the Codex", though. And I would think there are legitimate questions over such a view.

Is the Codex Astartes a document to be interpreted absolutely literally under all circumstances, or should it be interpreted anew to reflect changing times? Is the original intention of the authors relevant or not?

Hopefully without derailing the thread into P&R, there are persuasive analogies with the varying methods of interpretation for real-life religious texts.

GW have answered that with their own 'strict' Ultramarine stance (see Uriel Ventris as an example). The 'holy' codex is referred to by the ultramarines characters continuously, and anyone that strays from it (say the Mortificators that Ventris meets) are looked down upon.

However the biggest issue I have with it is the lack of other specialist alien fighting units.

If creating specialist veteran alien hunters is codex approved, then the Ultramarines have had 10,000 years to build up a substantial cadre of them considering the rather significant threats they've faced BEFORE the tyranids (see the Arch Arsonist of Charadon).

The section in Codex Space Marines that describes the Tyrannic War Veterans specifically mentions how unusual they are, and how the chapter was very wary of adopting it.

It makes it pretty clear that were it not for Cassius, they would not have been formed.

It seems pretty transparent to me.

Hellebore

Arkley
29-04-2008, 07:19
It makes it pretty clear that were it not for Cassius, they would not have been formed.

It seems pretty transparent to me.

Hellebore

For once I agree with you...

Oh well at least we arent Space Wolves...

DantesInferno
29-04-2008, 10:33
GW have answered that with their own 'strict' Ultramarine stance (see Uriel Ventris as an example). The 'holy' codex is referred to by the ultramarines characters continuously, and anyone that strays from it (say the Mortificators that Ventris meets) are looked down upon.

Just because something is "holy" doesn't mean you're committed to interpreting it strictly in every circumstance. Nor does keeping some core "strict" interpretations mean you're committed to interpreting everything 100% literally.


The section in Codex Space Marines that describes the Tyrannic War Veterans specifically mentions how unusual they are, and how the chapter was very wary of adopting it.

Yep. It was a contentious issue indeed.


However the biggest issue I have with it is the lack of other specialist alien fighting units.

If creating specialist veteran alien hunters is codex approved, then the Ultramarines have had 10,000 years to build up a substantial cadre of them considering the rather significant threats they've faced BEFORE the tyranids (see the Arch Arsonist of Charadon).

Well, just because they haven't done something before doesn't mean that it's wrong, or "against the Codex" to do it now. It could be a valid (re-)interpretation of the Codex to fit with changed circumstances.


It makes it pretty clear that were it not for Cassius, they would not have been formed.

It seems pretty transparent to me.

Captain Agemman of the First Company was also strongly in favour.

ThorOdensson
29-04-2008, 10:50
If creating specialist veteran alien hunters is codex approved, then the Ultramarines have had 10,000 years to build up a substantial cadre of them considering the rather significant threats they've faced BEFORE the tyranids (see the Arch Arsonist of Charadon).


Most likely there are entire chapters of the codex devoted to tactics to use against Orks, Eldar etc. There was no chapter on Tyranids, the most effective methods had to be found. "What about Tau?" you might ask. I suspect that the codex has adequate tactical responses for fighting them completely new tactics probably weren't necessary by all accounts Space Marines preform well against the Tau.

To be fair to the Tyranid hunters tactics developed to fight them probably work quite well against other enemies so not much is lost in the specialisation. I also doubt that other parts of training are neglected.

Sarlock
02-05-2008, 06:38
Thankyou finally a fair answer which doesnt cut the ultramarines down in flames