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Kyuss
27-04-2008, 16:15
Hiya,

Couldn't see a thread dedicated to everyone's favourite Space Pirates/Mafia, so I thought I would kick start one. I must confess that I have not followed 5th ed thread's terribly closely, but I was wondering how people...

a) Feel that the current, 3rd (but in its style 2nd) list will play under the new rules;

b) Any particular tactics flowing from this. A change to the Royal Wyches airforce?...;

c) What suggestions people have for new units, especially considering the little information released so far is that they will be few new units;

d) Suggestions for changes to units, but particularly ones which are not so regularly used, such as mandrakes/grotesques/helions/scrouges.

Thoughts ?

Kyuss

EpilepticMoose
27-04-2008, 16:39
b) Any particular tactics flowing from this.

I personally feel the 5th edition rules help the Dark Eldar in a couple of areas:

1) The new rules for deployment and going first are great (imo, the best new rule). Since you will know for sure who is going first, it makes deploying Raiders and Ravagers much better.

For instance, if you know you are going first, you can deploy your Raiders and Ravagers right up front. This will force your opponent into very difficult/cramped areas to and probably won't be able to prevent you from getting a first turn assault with your wyches (move 12", deploy 2", Fleet, assault 6"). Conversely, if you know you are going second, you can deploy your Raiders in safer positions to avoid the scenario (in the current edition) where all your stuff gets shot down on turn 1. Also, if you are going 2nd, you can opt to Deep Strike stuff instead... which brings me to point 2.

2) Deep Strike is rumored to always be in effect, which I believe helps our army as well. Screaming Jets now become a very interesting option, especially for Ravagers with 3 Disintegrators. If you know you are going second, just Deep Strike your Ravagers to 1) protect them somewhat and 2) when they come in you get one S7 AP2 blast and six S4 AP3 shots which can easily take out a small Dev squad :)

Those are some of the changes I have noticed so far... I am sure there are a lot more!

Alexander
27-04-2008, 22:53
Okay, but where did you find those rumours out ? And secondly does anyone really know when the 5 ed. DE codex is realesed, is it right after new SM ? or after the IG ? :confused:

EpilepticMoose
27-04-2008, 23:20
Okay, but where did you find those rumours out ? And secondly does anyone really know when the 5 ed. DE codex is realesed, is it right after new SM ? or after the IG ? :confused:

Those rumored rules I was talking about are in the leaked pre-release 5th edition rules that can be found on the internet. Also, the only thing I have seen about the new DE codex is that it is coming out in 2009... :(

Dooks Dizzo
28-04-2008, 00:16
Grotesques are going to rock again in 5th.

havik110
28-04-2008, 00:29
we will be one of the few mechanized armies left in 5th me thinks. we arent cheep enough for horde tactics and have no protection from bolters therefore raiders are in. I predict you will see as many raiders on the board as possible. raider squads and 3 wych squads as you need troops to obtain objectives. face it 9 raiders is a lot of terrain to throw in front of your opponents devs squads and block LOS which is what matters now.

we shall see.

intellectawe
28-04-2008, 02:48
I think, conter to all the naysayers about how 5th is going to bork their armies, I think DE is the one army to benefit the most from the change...

Why?

Because other armies got used to their cushy 4th ed rules. We DE players have always had a 3rd ed codex to use, and thus, never got to adapt fully to 4th.

So skipping to 5th is just like moving back to 3rd... something we are used to.

Skimmers blocked LOS in 3rd, allowing raiders to be useful, but in 4th that got taken away. Now its back. Woohoo!

Defensive weapons? We got that lock stock and barrel. So while other armies cry about how their once intended transports can't be gun boats of death, our open topped heavy support can now take its rightful spot as a top assault vehicle in the game.

Grotesques being useful again besides cheap combos? Sign me up!

The list goes on and on..... I am so giddy!

Kirasu
28-04-2008, 12:32
Pretty sure that dark lances and wyches are still good in 5th so dont worry about DE

colmarekblack
28-04-2008, 12:41
Dark Eldar are going to be very strong in 5th I feel. Wyches in Raiders will be deadly due to the new deployment rules. And ravagers even better.

In the hands of a skilled player, they'll be a force to be reckoned with at Grand Tournaments.

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 13:34
As they have always been. DE are the most successful army in the German tournament circuit :)

The only things I don't want to encounter in 5th are blessed LandRaiders and Monoliths, these should prove almost impossible to destroy.

Crazy_Irish
28-04-2008, 14:31
First my view. There are somethings that we benefit from. Runing Talos? Terrorfex anyone? With no more partials they will be on again!

But why are Grotesques good again? Because they can run?

EpilepticMoose
28-04-2008, 14:50
Wow, yes running Talos and Grotesques will be great! I guess I didn't really think a Talos could "Run" since it doesn't have legs, but I guess it should be able to! :)

megamat008
28-04-2008, 14:52
Well raiders are going to be deadly: they'll be able to shoot their DL and their horrorfex even when movin 12". The latter with the new blast rules should force pinning test at -2 or even -3 LD. Disintegrators will also be even better than before, considering how cheap they are.

Moreover units won't be anymore entagled when they get out of a destroyed vehicle.

I wonder if wyches will be allowed to have their dodge save in this case :p

Embalmed
28-04-2008, 14:55
Grotesques are going to rock again in 5th.

Please explain why. I love those twisted buggers, but they sure do suck nowdays :( Edit: ah yes of course, they block LOS again, sorry stupid of me.

If GW know what they are doing they'll redo grots, mandrakes and hellions quite a lot. They are really fluffy and have nice models and all but can't be used the way the fluff goes.

Most likely they'll apply general rules in place of the unique ones, so I reckon grots will get FNP, mandrakes go stealthy and Hellions something like FC.

Other straightening outs:
- Hellion weapons go Assault instead of RF (what were they thinking?)
- Mandrakes and Grots go cheaper or get CC buffs (poison anyone?)

I would be surprised if our DL and special weapons don't increase in cost.

intellectawe
28-04-2008, 15:03
I think Wyches in raider + haywire grenades and goblet of spite might become standard in case of land raiders and monoliths.

Aekold
28-04-2008, 23:46
Bewhaha :D fun fore me as i play DE :D sweeeet! Im gonna rock!

kokujin_atsuhara
29-04-2008, 09:00
I think Wyches in raider + haywire grenades and goblet of spite might become standard in case of land raiders and monoliths.

Yeah!!

The problem is the places where the logic says it couldn't work, like it's said here in Spain by some people who use the logic, and not the rules as written.

In this situation, LRC and monolith are almost invencible.


I don't think, like embalmed had said, the the faqs released with the rulebook will change points cost or something similar.
Perhaps, like he says, changing unique rules for universal rules (grots and FNP, for example).

I think that the remove of entanglement is one of the best changes for us. This, and the blast rules: a ravager with 3 desintegrator could be very awfull.

But I think about other changes:
- 6 raiders, allowing to carry any of the wych squads...perhaps scaling nets now are usefull, allowing our vehicles to take the any wych unit any point in the movement. Remember, now we can take cover with the raider, or we need to move 12". So been able to move all 12" could allow us to hide the raider (getting 4+), or at leats, get our 5+ because we haven't to stop at half movement, being openly vulnerable to fire.
- Archon with incubus. Now, they can run...it's not fleet, but at least can move. And we can transport them in any of the 6 raiders that we have for the wyches! So if his raider is detroyed, we have many more to transport them!
- Raiders block LoS! Well, if we go second, and can't hide all our riders...we can use one for a shield! If it doesn't explode and is removed, the first shoot that destroys it, give us some cover. It's a little risky.

Other things..well, if hellions can fleet, would it be able to run?
If GW gives them the option to run...can an IC be able to run, and assault?
xD

Embalmed
29-04-2008, 09:16
The problem is the places where the logic says it couldn't work, like it's said here in Spain by some people who use the logic, and not the rules as written.


Ah sweet logic :D What is the current logic on the physics of the Goblet of Spite? But seriously, that type of logic has no place in 40k, the goblet lets you hit stuff always on a 3+ (or was it 4+), no exceptions.


Yeah!!

I don't think, like embalmed had said, the the faqs released with the rulebook will change points cost or something similar.
Perhaps, like he says, changing unique rules for universal rules (grots and FNP, for example).


Ah, I was on about the new 'dex, you're right any FAQs are bound to not change the costs of anything, in fact I don't think a new FAQ would change the units as such at all.

kokujin_atsuhara
29-04-2008, 09:24
Ah sweet logic :D What is the current logic on the physics of the Goblet of Spite? But seriously, that type of logic has no place in 40k, the goblet lets you hit stuff always on a 3+ (or was it 4+), no exceptions.

They are a group that thinks he can interpret the rules by logic.
If the rules can be interpreted by logic...what will do the lawers to live?
The rules say what they say, no more, no less.

But I have to live with this in my zone...the problem is the main defender of this theory, is a very reputed ruler (at least, in his group) that wins international tournamet (the GT of notthingam, I think, of this year)




Ah, I was on about the new 'dex, you're right any FAQs are bound to not change the costs of anything, in fact I don't think a new FAQ would change the units as such at all.

We have many time until the new dex, to exploit the environment.
DE could be very dangerous with the rumored rules...

intellectawe
29-04-2008, 14:26
They are a group that thinks he can interpret the rules by logic.
If the rules can be interpreted by logic...what will do the lawers to live?
The rules say what they say, no more, no less.

I understand what you are saying. I used yo have a group of players who didn't care about rules much.

People online forget that the majority of 40k players are casual groups, most of which do not have a decent grasp on the rules, or, intentionally play for fun.

In my case, I had to be as unreasonable with them as they were we each other. It's harsh to confront your friends in this manner, but for me it needed to be done.

But you are right, despite what onliners want to think, it is ultimately up to the group you play with.

kokujin_atsuhara
29-04-2008, 15:14
I understand what you are saying. I used yo have a group of players who didn't care about rules much.

People online forget that the majority of 40k players are casual groups, most of which do not have a decent grasp on the rules, or, intentionally play for fun.

In my case, I had to be as unreasonable with them as they were we each other. It's harsh to confront your friends in this manner, but for me it needed to be done.

But you are right, despite what onliners want to think, it is ultimately up to the group you play with.


The problem is not with the group I usually play: in this, I'm considered the most impartial judge.

The problem is with the group that organize the biggest tourneys in this area, they think that the logic can be used to fix things that are controversial: archon in skyboard assaulting12", globet of spite against vehicles,...

So I have a terrible problem killing monoliths :(

Embalmed
30-04-2008, 14:19
The problem is with the group that organize the biggest tourneys in this area, they think that the logic can be used to fix things that are controversial: archon in skyboard assaulting12", globet of spite against vehicles,...

So I have a terrible problem killing monoliths :(

Urgh, poor you!

Why should it be illogical that a Goblet that makes some individuals very aggressive also gives them the balls to throw themselves at speeding vehicles or the adrenaline to jump up onto a vehicle that hovers 10 feet above ground?

Doesn't seem at all illogical to me compared to the whole concept of teleportation, psychic powers, orks (everything about them just boggles the logical part of a well honed brain) travel faster than light speed etc etc.

Alexander
30-04-2008, 15:07
If those rumours bout 5th ed. are goin to be right DE gonna be really strong, just as u wrote ...I hope codex will be sooner than in 2009 !!!:rolleyes:

kokujin_atsuhara
30-04-2008, 16:49
Urgh, poor you!

Why should it be illogical that a Goblet that makes some individuals very aggressive also gives them the balls to throw themselves at speeding vehicles or the adrenaline to jump up onto a vehicle that hovers 10 feet above ground?

Doesn't seem at all illogical to me compared to the whole concept of teleportation, psychic powers, orks (everything about them just boggles the logical part of a well honed brain) travel faster than light speed etc etc.

Ey, I doesn't saying that it's not logical.
I'm only saying that the rules doesn't said that.

Crystalmonkey
30-04-2008, 23:16
The only thing that I worry about is that people will say Dark Eldar are even easier to play as... and yes I have been told that the Dark Eldar are an easy army to play as...

I can understand where my friend is coming from:

Wyches, which are 13 points each (with Wyche Weapons, of course), are frighteningly effective, especially compared to other models that are at that price range. The combat drugs are almost always worth it (no matter what you get, though perhaps the weakest of all the drugs is the +1 WS one...), with no side effects. (With the leader, you can always just use 1 drug...) They have a massive charge range, which usually means that they get into CC... and even if they ARE weak against shooting, their fast assault range means it tends to be easy to get them into CC...

Still, I think a lot of his problem came from the fact that I exploited how he was set up... I guess the webways make that easy to do.

Crazy_Irish
01-05-2008, 11:55
(no matter what you get, though perhaps the weakest of all the drugs is the +1 WS one...),

?wtf?

Ever charged SM with +1WS? You devide his WS by 2 so he only has a WS of 2. So he hits you on the 4+ if you have WS4. But with WS5 he only hits you on a 5+. So don't tell me its the weakest.
The weakest in my opinion is the allways strikes first. Usually i Strike first, manly i do not benefit from it.....thats weak ;-)

And anyone who says they are easy to play, should play them once. They see it's a lot more then just raceing into combat.

shin'keiro
01-05-2008, 16:07
I think theres a good chance Harlequins will be in the new DE codex

intellectawe
01-05-2008, 18:55
I think theres a good chance Harlequins will be in the new DE codex

I hope not.

Wyches bend harlequins over now, and if harlies are coming in our new book, our wyches are going to be nerfed big time.


I hope we keep our book for many many years to come. We just need new models.

kokujin_atsuhara
01-05-2008, 19:03
I hope we keep our book for many many years to come. We just need new models.


I hope not.
I don't have seen many successfull builds, other than wyches.
Perhaps...DL spam.

But, to be honest, most of the DE units are almost useless.

I only hope that they make a good FAQ until the new codex is released.

sg001
03-05-2008, 01:09
DE in 5th....well, I wouldn't say completely busted but they lose a lot more than they gain.

Changes to assaults actually weaken Wyches and Warp Beasts a significant amount:

- No more kill zones was in every version of the PDFs and if that's true, it means Wyches will get absolutely swamped in CC. 4++ is nice, but the general swing towards more boots on the ground combined with the inability to clear a kill zone means Wyches may end up facing a lot of attacks back.

- One rumour was also giving everyone a counter-charge like skill. Combined with no more kill zones, means even more attacks on our T3, 4+ save troops. Tactical charging goes out the window and combat essentially ends up as a result of "who has most attacks".

And of course, DE are the only army that suffers from actual low leadership. Morale tests are much bigger news in 5th than they were in 4th, and let's look at every other army in the game:

IG? Vox networks, close order drill, 12" leadership bubble, Commisars solves their Ld probs. Sisters? Books of St Lucius, and an act of faith that makes them fearless/auto-rallies. Smurfs? ATSKNF, can get Ld10 across the board, and so on. Chaos? High Ld, and can get fearless IIRC. Grey Knights? All fearless. Orks? All fearless in numbers over 10, can get re-rolls for when they're not. Tyranids? Ld10 and/or Synapse, and so on for every other army.

DE are the only army that doesn't have some sort of trick to play Ld-wise, and it'll hit them hard in 5th.

Then there's the "only troops score". Yes, cover is far more available than it was, but the fact is that DE Warriors fall apart under any sort of serious firepower, they're one of the weakest troops in the game which is why they're only ever valued as DL/WWP carriers currently.

Truth be told, until DE get a new codex I think they're going to be a bit outgunned in 5th - in 4th they could hold on via DL firepower or Wyche assaults, but Wyches simply aren't going to be as good in 5th as they currently are and Warriors die too quickly and run away to quickly to truly rely on them as our only scoring unit option.

And finally, wound allocation before rolling saves. It's not hard to force a lot of saves on T3 troops, via shooting or via CC. Your Wyche Succubus, your Warriors with DLs, and so on, are going to get forced to make saves early and often and once the unit gets whittled down you'll be making more and more saves on those models. Granted, it applies equally to every army, but other armies get much better saves and are often harder to wound to begin with ;).

intellectawe
03-05-2008, 01:29
I hope not.
I don't have seen many successfull builds, other than wyches.

Which is one of the internet myths which keeps players away from DE. I have a few bat reps up, maybe you should just check them out and see how some of the 'unsuccessful builds' pretty much rape.


Perhaps...DL spam.

Yes, this noob tactic works.


But, to be honest, most of the DE units are almost useless.

Only two units are truly worthless, Hellions and Scourges. People never bother to learn how to use Grotesques and Mandrakes, both of which, are very powerful, and in many cases, broken.


- No more kill zones was in every version of the PDFs and if that's true, it means Wyches will get absolutely swamped in CC.

This isn't a Wych specific problem then. It affects all elite armies. But when you play with 80 warriors, and now with line of sight being drawn across the board, you can soften the enemy up some with our ultra cheap units.

You can use Raiders to block line of sight and stop unfavorable firing lanes.


- One rumour was also giving everyone a counter-charge like skill. Combined with no more kill zones, means even more attacks on our T3, 4+ save troops.

This rumor doesn't seem to be true at all. But who knows right?


Tactical charging goes out the window and combat essentially ends up as a result of "who has most attacks".

Which is the same as it is now. There still is tactical charging of course, but its always been about the most attacks you can pour out.


And of course, DE are the only army that suffers from actual low leadership. Morale tests are much bigger news in 5th than they were in 4th, and let's look at every other army in the game:

IG? Vox networks, close order drill, 12" leadership bubble, Commisars solves their Ld probs. Sisters? Books of St Lucius, and an act of faith that makes them fearless/auto-rallies. Smurfs? ATSKNF, can get Ld10 across the board, and so on. Chaos? High Ld, and can get fearless IIRC. Grey Knights? All fearless. Orks? All fearless in numbers over 10, can get re-rolls for when they're not. Tyranids? Ld10 and/or Synapse, and so on for every other army.

DE are the only army that doesn't have some sort of trick to play Ld-wise, and it'll hit them hard in 5th.

And? This is how it is NOW and how it has been since 1998 for Dark Eldar. This isn't anything we can't deal with because we've been dealing with it for ages already.


Then there's the "only troops score". Yes, cover is far more available than it was, but the fact is that DE Warriors fall apart under any sort of serious firepower, they're one of the weakest troops in the game which is why they're only ever valued as DL/WWP carriers currently.

You don't play Dark Eldar I can tell. Warriors have far more value as mules. Just because online noobs post the same old tripe every 5 days about DE lists doesn't mean players in real life who know how to win with DE follow those same noobish trends.

The age of The Raider is back. You forget, DE is getting back it's mobile terrain once again! Woohoo!

And most other army's basic trooper's can't handle our basic trooper's weaponry. So I am not worried about warriors being weak.



...and Warriors die too quickly and run away to quickly to truly rely on them as our only scoring unit option.

This may sound egotistical, and I rightfully don't care, but I never bother with objectives anyway. I always try to wipe my opponent off the board. Check out my bat reps to see how I do this with, as you put it, 'weak lists'. When I play the oh so famous "only builds DE army", its a complete slaughter.

sg001
03-05-2008, 01:35
Warriors have far more value as mules.

Snipped most of it since you completely managed to miss every single point I was making. but I'll pick you up on just this one.

Warriors are T3, 5+ save.

I say that makes them one of the weakest troops in the game.

What makes you consider them tougher than others?

-----------------

On another note, I rarely attempt to belittle others but since you started it:

And yes, I've seen your battle reports with lists you claim are unusual. Your lists seem pretty much standard fair to me, 1 killy character with a Wych squad or 2, a WWP, a few DL sniper squads of 10-12 men. And the usual triple-DL or triple-Dis Ravagers. I don't see anything "special" about any of your lists mate. I do see something "special" about most of your opponents though, as an example from one of your battle reports you fought against:

Commander w/ two drones

Stealth Suits
3x Crisis Suit Team

3x Full Warrior Squads
1x Devil Fish

Pathfinder Squad
Sniper Squad
Piranha
Hammerhead

I think that's the weakest Tau list I've ever seen, hardly surprising a DL/Wych spam list killed it. the only unusual thing about your lists is that you bother with mandrakes and grotesques instead of the extra sniper squads/wyches most go for.

Considering, in your exact words, anyone that takes 10-12 man Warriors squads purely for their DLs and relies on WWPs to send Wyches/Killy Char+Grotesques or Incubi into CC is "an online noob", you do a ******** of it yourself.

For the record, yes, I do play DE (along with Orks, IG, SM, and Inquisitorial forces that are sometimes pure SoB, sometimes pure GK, sometimes use lots of Guard, sometimes use lots of Marines) and yes, sniper squads+WWP delivered combat units is what everyone does because it works. I've played a few games with 5th ed rumoured rule changes and the DE are much weaker than they are in 4th. They can still win, but they aren't quite so good as they are under 4th ed rules for the above mentioned reasons.

Simply put, other armies can gut the DE's soft underbelly of warriors just as easily in 5th as they can in 4th, but the DE killy bits aren't quite as killy as they used to be. And only the Warriors count as scoring now unless you go full Wych Cult. In addition to everything I put in the above post, the new shooting rules also weaken one of the DE's primary weapons: DLs are still excellent vs vehicles when they manage to hit due to the Lance rule, but vehicles get cover saves in 5th according to the rumours. Which saves them a lot of times they would've been blown to pieces under 4th ed rules. Not to mention LoS sniping and Range sniping are now out. Although these rule changes hits other armies as well as DE, DE don't really gain much in comparison to what many other armies do.

EpilepticMoose
03-05-2008, 02:04
DE in 5th....well, I wouldn't say completely busted but they lose a lot more than they gain.

DE are the only army that doesn't have some sort of trick to play Ld-wise, and it'll hit them hard in 5th.


Thanks for the insights, sg001. I agree that the morale issue is really going to hurt...

TalleyWhacker
03-05-2008, 03:07
Actully, I believe the interpretation of only "troops" being scoring units in the leaked pdf is a bit vague. I understand that basically any nonmechanized unit is going to be considered a "troop" for scoring purposes.

If that's true(Since nothing can be confirmed as true in 5th yet), imagine how potent Grotesques will be w/ the current rules.

As far as wyches loosing effectiveness in close combat..I believe they're going to stay as the best close combat option. Not alot beats initiative 6, just about every troop will halve their WS when attacking wyches and not get their extra attack from cc weapons, and they get the best invurnerable save in cc(Just about every invulnerable save caps at 4++, with one of the exceptions being shadowfield w/ 2++)

I see BIG advantages for DE in 5th edition.

Skimmers blocking LOS is huge. I see lots of Rhino tactics w/ warriors using raider wreckage as 4++ saves (If that stays in 5th)

Alot of minor changes will benefit us, like only taking a strength 3 hit from emgergency vehicles that are open topped and taking a pinning test. All bikes get a 3++ save from turbo boosting. We'll still be able to use all of our defensive weapons like normal.

We're gaining alot from the new rules and loosing very little.

Also, for the points we pay for DE and DE options, warriors are very very worth it. Most armies that have troops below 10points a model usually get ws and bs 3 or worse, while we maintain a 4 in both categories. I believe the only exception are Eldar (who are losing alot from 5th edition).

Aside from that, the fact that a space marine is almost 100% more expensive than a warrior, means I can field a lot. Which makes them usefull for concealing those nice special weapons or unit/s that can change the course of a game.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

intellectawe
03-05-2008, 05:05
Talley made all the points I was going to. Since he can see outside the box and understands the basics to what makes something good in this game versus what people just spew out on the internet over and over.

Thank you Talley.

Kirasu
03-05-2008, 06:34
All I saw was "wyches are good in 5th" and "warriors are good in 5th" which I think reverts back to the "Wyches + warrior" list that was mentioned

I sure do hope GW has an actual plan for DE besides wyche and DL spam

TalleyWhacker
03-05-2008, 08:03
Hi,

Let me post what you meant to say and get the thread back on track and away from the typical forum flaming.(Hopefully this thread is still savagable)

In defending warriors and wyches, Talley shows they are still a viable option. Also, options like Grotesques and bikes will become more favorable to some players, due to some rule tweaking. Hopefully, we will see more tactical uses of raiders, thanks to 5th ed., other than just DL platforms.

These assumptions, and this discussion for that matter, only go as far as 5th ed. rumors and until the new DE codex comes out.

I apologize for my wasteful post and wish to continue discussing how the rumored 5th ed. rules will effect the current version of the 2nd edition of the 3rd edition of Warhammer 40k DE codex.

Tootles

Alexander
03-05-2008, 11:47
According to the models...I found out some gs Homoculi photos in web...Did you guys see any others....?

intellectawe
03-05-2008, 14:02
I apologize for my wasteful post and wish to continue discussing how the rumored 5th ed. rules will effect the current version of the 2nd edition of the 3rd edition of Warhammer 40k DE codex.

Tootles

Trust me, you are FAR from being one of the many wasteful posters in this thread.

kokujin_atsuhara
04-05-2008, 13:11
Well, I continue to think that DE will be better in 5th edition than now.

Perhaps, mandrakes will be a little better: better save in cover, and if the markers can run, perhaps you can reach melee or objectives one turn earlier.
But, you still need 6 mandrakes to make 18 attacks, to hit 9, to wound 3, and kill one marine.
Not good.

Grots...well, it's good to make the other unit run with only winning combat. But, seriously, if you lock grots, with their T3 and no ST, they will receive all the enemy attacks.
Even like meat shields...would you use a footslogging meat shield in an army with skimmer open topped transports?

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 14:28
Grots...well, it's good to make the other unit run with only winning combat. But, seriously, if you lock grots, with their T3 and no ST, they will receive all the enemy attacks.

This is where we separate pros from non pros.... :)

Join grots to a tooled out archon in a raider. Dismebark in such a way that only the archon is the closest model, and only the archon is engaged in combat. Archon kills at least 1 model, and then the enemy unit auto runs.

This has been a valid tactic since 1998, but for some reason, players can never get passed the "Oh, grots can't be screened anymore, so they are worthless."

Far from it.

kokujin_atsuhara
04-05-2008, 14:35
This is where we separate pros from non pros.... :)

Join grots to a tooled out archon in a raider. Dismebark in such a way that only the archon is the closest model, and only the archon is engaged in combat. Archon kills at least 1 model, and then the enemy unit auto runs.

This has been a valid tactic since 1998, but for some reason, players can never get passed the "Oh, grots can't be screened anymore, so they are worthless."

Far from it.

Yes, it could work.
But don you think it's a very limited use for a unit?
You are paying 45 point's min, to make run every unit that an archon could beat.
But you are vulnerable, and you have to be very very precise, because if a grot is locked...you could lost the combat easily.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 14:47
But don you think it's a very limited use for a unit?

As opposed to what?


You are paying 45 point's min, to make run every unit that an archon could beat.

45 points for an auto win. Works great with a Dracon or Haemonculous too. I think 45 points for an auto win ability is pretty good. Makes short order of Biker Nobs.


But you are vulnerable, and you have to be very very precise, because if a grot is locked...you could lost the combat easily.

Which is why I said there is a difference between pros and non pros. I never fail this, as I can judge 6" without even looking. If at all possible, you can even use the length of a raider to help measure 6" quite easily. If you still have distance judging issues, then yeah, this is a risky maneuver.

The_Outsider
04-05-2008, 14:50
I think calling that "grot bombing" would be pretty cool.

But yeah - grotesques only work because of their rule, otherwise they only have a place in an all infantry DE list (which is an entirely different beast).

Pink Horror
04-05-2008, 22:25
This has been a valid tactic since 1998, but for some reason, players can never get passed the "Oh, grots can't be screened anymore, so they are worthless."

So they're worth it because of some kind of silly, I get to use this close combat rule but I'm not really hittable in close combat kind of way? This is the kind of thing, like LOS sniping, that the people I play with house rule away immediately. No one I know thinks there should be an advantage in doing something like purposely spotting less of an enemy unit, or charging the smallest number of guys you can. It's the kind of thing that would make me never go back to a 2nd tournament, if I happened to go to a 1st.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 22:40
So they're worth it because of some kind of silly, I get to use this close combat rule but I'm not really hittable in close combat kind of way? This is the kind of thing, like LOS sniping, that the people I play with house rule away immediately. No one I know thinks there should be an advantage in doing something like purposely spotting less of an enemy unit, or charging the smallest number of guys you can. It's the kind of thing that would make me never go back to a 2nd tournament, if I happened to go to a 1st.

What? If you gaming group wants to 'house rule away' rules because you don't like them, fine. I don't like that Marines have ap5 versus my 5+ save, but I don't house rule marines to ap 6.

This isn't even something that is being abused. It is the rule of the Grotesques. It isn't like I am making something up.

Charging in with the exact models needed to ensure victory isn't a idea that people abuse, it is called a 'Tactic'. No where in any book is there a rule where you have to stupidly charge into combat like some half retarded bull machine-thing.

LOS sniping? If you have a sergeant out in the open, and the rest of his unit is behind cover, this isn't another rule people are abusing... it is a rule people PLAY by. The sergeant is going to die. Period. No rules abused here. But I guess if you don;t like it, your group would just house rule terrain out of the game right?

Ha!

But I guess if your group keeps 'house ruling' tactics out of a 40k, you'll end up with Checkers in no time flat.

Pink Horror
04-05-2008, 23:31
But I guess if your group keeps 'house ruling' tactics out of a 40k, you'll end up with Checkers in no time flat.

Maybe. House rule out the tactics that don't make sense, and try to emphasize the ones that do. Of course everyone has their own idea of sense. I was just typing up a post about how much I like terrain, though.

It's not one guy out in the open getting blasted that seems silly. Doing that is something I'd willingly sacrifice to play squad vs. squad instead of model vs. model. It's nice, realistic, but bogs down the game.

The irritating thing is willingly deciding to not look around a corner, because then you might spot three more non-lascannon guys to shoot, and we really want to kill that lascannon. The problem with these tactics (yes, I acknowledge they are tactical), is that they encourage silly (IMHO) behavior. I can't be the only person who thinks this, if 5th edition is turning my house rule into an official one. I have the game developers on my side here :p.

It's equally strange to try to purposely shoot so that the bullets can't reach everyone standing behind the leader, when the entire unit is in the open. Sure, sometimes I know mathematically I'll probably only get one kill, but should I abuse the fact that shooting is done in turns instead of a continuum to turn every squad into a sniper? My soldiers can concentrate their fire, but only at maximum range? My soldiers are supposed to be trying to shoot everyone. I'm not supposed to have that level of control. (But I get to decide exactly what each checker targets with no irritation, luckily.).

Similarly, I find it strange that I get to fight in melee in the little slice of time that only my Archon is touching the bad guys, instead of rolling the dice for the part of combat that I'd imagine would fill the majority of my soldiers' time: everyone all mixed together, the swirly thing WH40k keeps mentioning. I think it'd be just fine if everyone was pushed together into a circle and allowed to target everyone else. Sure, there goes the measured charge tactic. Somehow, I think the game is big enough to manage without it. It sure makes more sense to my tiny brain that, if something counts as being in close combat, and gets to use a close combat rule, it ought to be targetable in close combat. Why should my jerks be scared of something that's too frightened itself to get within arms-reach? It's not like I decided it sounds cooler for all guardsmen to carry lascannons instead of lasguns.

Some ways I play may not be official, but this is a forum with a GAP acronym in its FAQs. I'm not alone.


This isn't even something that is being abused. It is the rule of the Grotesques. It isn't like I am making something up.

It's not being abused, because it's a rule? How does being a rule mean it can't be abused? Did I ever say you were doing something against the letter of the rules? It's only the spirit that's being maligned. That's what "abuse" is. If you were not following the rules, you'd be breaking them, not abusing them.


Charging in with the exact models needed to ensure victory isn't a idea that people abuse, it is called a 'Tactic'.

Something tactical is not always fun. Something tactical is not always balanced or fair. Yes, it's a tactic. Technically, so is any other possible way you could use your little squads, legal or illegal. So what?

Doctor Thunder
05-05-2008, 00:22
As someone who is currently building a Dark Eldar army, the question I want to know is why people keep mentioning Dark Lance spam, when the real firepower in 5th edition would be lots of Disintigrators.

intellectawe
05-05-2008, 02:15
As someone who is currently building a Dark Eldar army, the question I want to know is why people keep mentioning Dark Lance spam, when the real firepower in 5th edition would be lots of Disintigrators.

Because as the majority of posters you see around the net, like in this thread for example, have no clue how to use Dark Eldar at all.

EmperorEternalXIX
05-05-2008, 03:10
As opposed to what?

45 points for an auto win. Works great with a Dracon or Haemonculous too. I think 45 points for an auto win ability is pretty good. Makes short order of Biker Nobs.

Which is why I said there is a difference between pros and non pros. I never fail this, as I can judge 6" without even looking. If at all possible, you can even use the length of a raider to help measure 6" quite easily. If you still have distance judging issues, then yeah, this is a risky maneuver. I personally feel the Dark Eldar are very broken. Their highs are very high and their lows are very low, and I'm hoping the way 5th works out it will level them off a bit in both categories.

However tactics like this lend itself to my assertion that the codex is horribly broken. I don't care how easily your guys die to bolter fire, there should be nothing in this entire game that is capable of any sort of "auto-win."

If I encountered such a tactic I would just pack up my stuff and leave the table.


Similarly, I find it strange that I get to fight in melee in the little slice of time that only my Archon is touching the bad guys, instead of rolling the dice for the part of combat that I'd imagine would fill the majority of my soldiers' time: everyone all mixed together, the swirly thing WH40K keeps mentioning. I think it'd be just fine if everyone was pushed together into a circle and allowed to target everyone else. Sure, there goes the measured charge tactic. Somehow, I think the game is big enough to manage without it. It sure makes more sense to my tiny brain that, if something counts as being in close combat, and gets to use a close combat rule, it ought to be targetable in close combat. Why should my jerks be scared of something that's too frightened itself to get within arms-reach? It's not like I decided it sounds cooler for all guardsmen to carry lascannons instead of lasguns. I agree with this sentiment in full, for what it's worth. And you can feel free to lump me in with "those idiots on the internet who don't know how to play Dark Eldar." There should never be a tactic available in this game that removes the competitive part of it. It's my models, stats and dice versus your models stats and dice. As soon as you start making those things not matter anymore, you aren't even being sporting and there's no point to even continue.

intellectawe
05-05-2008, 03:27
Well, maybe you should follow Pink's gaming group and just 'house rule' any normal rule you feel you don't like.

Other people like to play by the rules.

I can easily say the Entangle rule ruined my raiders, which it did in 4th, and is an 'auto win' button for my opponent, but I never 'house rule' Entangle away to make my life easier.

But I digress. During deployment, when I declare my grotesques are in a raider with my archon, and you are stupid enough to get close and let me get my charge on you, then yes, you deserve to have your unit routed. My 'auto win' button is easily countered by your Entangle 'auto win' button.

Doctor Thunder
05-05-2008, 04:11
Because as the majority of posters you see around the net, like in this thread for example, have no clue how to use Dark Eldar at all.

Ah, I get it. Without solid experience all one has access to are knee-jerk reactions.

EpilepticMoose
05-05-2008, 04:20
Join grots to a tooled out archon in a raider. Dismebark in such a way that only the archon is the closest model, and only the archon is engaged in combat. Archon kills at least 1 model, and then the enemy unit auto runs.

This has been a valid tactic since 1998, but for some reason, players can never get passed the "Oh, grots can't be screened anymore, so they are worthless."

Far from it.

I don't think this tactic will work in 5th because it is rumored that everyone will have counter-attack, where the unit that is charged can pile in before combat. Thoughts?

Pink Horror
05-05-2008, 05:22
I don't think this tactic will work in 5th because it is rumored that everyone will have counter-attack, where the unit that is charged can pile in before combat. Thoughts?

Sounds good, but I understand this is an iffy rumor. Like I said before, just push the whole mess together. If that were to become official (I don't even play that way right now), maybe WH40k should have some Confrontation-style rule that only allows a certain number of models to attack a specific model. That would keep 20 Orks from gang-banging your Heroine.


Well, maybe you should follow Pink's gaming group and just 'house rule' any normal rule you feel you don't like.

Always an option. :D I don't think I've ever in my life played a game this complex without a house rule in there somewhere. You always move your chargers in order of distance? You make people measure every move?


Other people like to play by the rules.

There is a nice feeling involved with being able to play a game by the official rules. It's just not usually worth it at home.

I hope the Dark Eldar quickly get a new codex in 5th edition. They obviously confuse a lot of people. The army needs to fly around in Raiders and on bikes, strafing and charging in to make captures, attacking with strange toxins and death rays. It should be simple and fun to cause some mayhem with them. Hit and run, and hit again, needs to come naturally to them.

intellectawe
05-05-2008, 05:26
I don't think this tactic will work in 5th because it is rumored that everyone will have counter-attack, where the unit that is charged can pile in before combat. Thoughts?

Not much to think about if this rumor is true. Grotesques will probably not even be used at all then if they can a) be shot through, again and b) render their auto win ability null.

Then again, if 5th is shaping up to be the big **** pile it seems to be, my LGS is staying in 4rth anyway. Thats a pretty much unanimous decision.

@Pink

Too bad out current hit and run unit, Hellion, is near worthless. Hopefully this will all be addressed in the new codex coming out in 2032.

Embalmed
05-05-2008, 09:47
The fact that there seems there will be more cover saves for infantry and cover saves for vehicles should reasonably benefit fragile armies like DE, MEQ often don't get any bonus from cover anyway.

On top of that Ravagers are about the only vehicles that have effective S 4 weapons, if the defensive weapons rumor holds true that will allow us to dodge a major nerf to vehicles.

Ok grots won't be any good in CC anymore, with the charge reaction thing, but they get their meat shield ability back (or rather meat cover in this edition).

On another good note the shredder will certainly be worthwhile with the new blast rules, particularly vs horde armies, yay :).

Indrid Khold
05-05-2008, 10:30
I just hope and pray to god that the new codex actually makes sense from a background perspective.

Though somehow I doubt it ...

kokujin_atsuhara
05-05-2008, 11:38
Grots meat cover could be interesting, but...will anyone sacrifice a unit of wyches to get this?
Now that almost any cover give 4+?

Ravager have the best defensive weapon in the game, and shredder will be worthier. But...do you take away a blaster to put a shredder?

The_Outsider
05-05-2008, 13:41
Ravager have the best defensive weapon in the game, and shredder will be worthier. But...do you take away a blaster to put a shredder?

I suspect we will be seeing a ton more triple disintegrator ravagers - mostly for the hail of AP3 fire their minimal setting has.

3 triple dissie ravagers will scythe down ANY infantry in the game that can easily be taken down.

teleologica
05-05-2008, 13:48
It seems a lot of people are confident about 5th, with some reservations. I've got a couple of questions / observations. These are based on the PDFs and rumours, so I know nobody's sure how it will work but ...

Cover when everything is 'true' LoS. If skimmers give cover then great, but will that just give a cover save (e.g. the 4+ that's rumoured for shooting through) or completely block sight? Surely that would be treating them as area terrain, which will be disappearing (I thought). Also, when your mobile terrain is shot down, how does it block LOS? My problem is that I tend to use wrecks to block LoS for my portal carrier (my group uses all vehicles and wrecks as L3 terrain for LoS, I know it's debatable but that's how we do it). If I have to remove the flying base and then whatever can be seen past the skeletal frame of Raider can be shot - i.e. any infantry models from most angles - that will make life difficult. Plus it surely won't block LoS to Raiders behind it? I've seen people argue that you just have to use lots of cotton-wool 'smoke' but that strikes me as a little unsporting and contrary to RaI.

Also counter-charge. I am a bit stunned by the arguments above that judging charge ranges is somehow abusive. For EmperorEternalXIX to say that the game is about stats and dice rolls is just ... wow. You actually believe that using tactics is wrong? Every army has strengths and weaknesses, and for all - but especially DE - the strengths are often in the special rules and the player's ability to use them, not in the Mathhammer probability of winning with x Wych attacks versus x Harlequins (or whatever). Anyway, the reason Wyches are devastating is not that they wipe out anything they charge, but because with careful judgement you can whittle down units over several phases while minimising casualties back. It's not just a no-brainer 'I have Wyches, I win' but something that requires skill. It strikes me that counter-charging will remove this ability, and make DE weaker than they are now most especially against hordes and high A models (Orks ouch). I already won't charge 8 wyches at 25 boyz unless I thought I was going to clear the engagement zone and prevent them hitting back. Now I can't even have a chance of doing that. It won't devastate DE completely, but will weaken them IMO. It then encourages even more of the DL / Blaster / Disintegrator spam shooting lists.

BTW, to Doctor Thunder's question. Yes, Disintegrators are great, but DLs are better in two circumstances. 1. Against vehicles - one S8 shot is better than one S7 shot whichever way you cut it, and Lance makes it MUCH better against heavy armour. 2. Against some armies you need to be looking for Instakills vs T4 (Plague marines, Necrons, Marine ICs etc). DLs will give you this, Dissies won't. Personally, I generally go for more Dissies than DLs, just making the point they both have a place.

Sg001, I agree with much of what you're saying. Ld is another of my worries. The plethora of Fearless / high Ld troops in other codexes means that the combat resolution will probably hit DE (esp Warriors) harder than others.

I'm not sure we'll be outgunned though, because ultimately we do still have a ********* of firepower! It's cc, and getting there in the first place, that I see us suffering in.

Edit: Outsider, I agree completely. 3 Dis Ravs are already mean. With no partials from blasts and S4 defensive, they will just be rude. ;)

Brockafally
05-05-2008, 18:26
I wouldn't hold your breathe for the new DE codex. GW has stated it isn't coming out anytime soon. Any production schedule's you've seen for it are definitely wrong. I talked with the Event Coordinator of GW Canada who does all the Q&A's at the important tournaments and get's his intel from GW headquarters and when asked about DE he said, "yeah.. umm.. not anytime soon. Far, far away."

DE will be better in 5th edition and for one reason, No auto-entangle for destroyed vehicles. That in itself makes our army stronger. So many times I've had to stare down at a unit of guys from a recently destroyed wreck and say, "they are dead. Something will either shoot or assault them before they get a chance to do anything."

Oh and Ravagers being utterly devastating with the new template rules will be nice too. ;)

I also remember someone telling (never seen the PDF personally) about Combat resolution rules. You get negative modifiers to LD for each model a squad loses in combat. That alone lets our speeding bullets (lone Archons/Archites, and Dracon's/Drachites) win combat in a single turn and break units.

5th edition will be good for DE. :D

Splata
06-05-2008, 01:58
Ahh yes, forgot about the no partials thing. Was wondering why you were saying that the dissies and shredders wll be gettingthat much better (as i was just thinking about the scatter rules).

Personally Shredders will still not be getting a look in at my lists. They still suck in my opinion. Not nearly as much versitility. and if you geta hit you will still only get 1 hit in most circumstances.

I see a lot of ghost ship lists coming back in this next version even just as blockers to our main events like raiders full of wyches and ravagers.
If only we had an elite unit that was shooty from a raider... make it easier to make an even more vicious ranged ship list.

All Hail The Mighty Car Park!


Interesting points you raise about combat resolution and the counter charge. The one bonus it does give us is that if we win combat we have a better chance of making a sweeping advance on the enemy as we will most likely have a model in base to base now. This can be a good thing in that we will slaughter more enemies, but it is probably also a really bad idea in that we will be left in the open more often. Same applies to the new combat resolution scores, if we win we will be knocking down their leadership to levels that will be very difficult to roll LD from.

Doctor Thunder
08-05-2008, 17:24
I've also had a lot of fun in playtesting using horrorfexes on my vehicles. No partials means -2 and -3 to leadership for pinning tests. Wicked effective for 5 points.

Danny Internet
09-05-2008, 13:54
With the changes to sweeping advances and leadership modifiers for losing combat combined with the removal of entaglement, I feel that DE is going to become a competitive list again (about time, imo). Both foot-slogging and mechanized CC armies in general are going to be out of control in 5th if the leaked codex is any indicator.

Bloodknight
09-05-2008, 15:03
DE are already a very competitive list, and have always been.

I see the modifiers for losing combat rather work against the DE because they are one of the armies with lowest factual LD, and Wyches for example tend to fluff their attacks sometime due to them being S3 (they are better at surviving than killing), and they will not take losing combat as "well" as they do now.

Danny Internet
11-05-2008, 14:22
No offense, but the Dark Eldar haven't been a competitive army since 3rd edition. I've played dozens of opponents in casual and tournament settings and each and every time, with all 4 of my armies, it has been an effortless win.

I agree that not having access to a lot of Ld 10 upgrades hurts them, however DE shouldn't really be losing combat in the first place for units that matter, unless you're playing a shooty DE list, in which case you're pretty much played a gimped version of other armies that can do it better.

Bloodknight
11-05-2008, 14:46
Uhhm; WWP Wych Cult?
Haven't lost with mine in ages against a plethora of opponents.
Pulling off an effortless win against DE in the current ruleset is usually a problem with the tables, i.e. not enough terrain, combined with players who did not change from the raider rush to something that works.
That said, they are quite popular here in the tournament circuit, and the most successful army to boot, followed by Eldar and Tyranids.

The_Outsider
11-05-2008, 14:57
DE are very powerful, even now some of the latest codices struggle to match their damage output.

Danny Internet
11-05-2008, 23:12
WWP Wych cult (like any DE army) folds to any list with even a moderate amount of shooting. There's a reason they hardly even have a presence at tournaments, nevermind a good record at them (hint: it's not because they're effective).

The_Outsider
11-05-2008, 23:34
WWP Wych cult (like any DE army) folds to any list with even a moderate amount of shooting. There's a reason they hardly even have a presence at tournaments, nevermind a good record at them (hint: it's not because they're effective).

Err what?

I'm not going to go into the depth required to say what exactly is wrong with that post, so i'll just say "I disagree".

Fun fact: As shown here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tournaments/40k-2006-07/assets/40k-2006-07-grand-final.pdf) a DE army came 7th in the last UKGT.

Also IIRC all the DE players than entered the GT actually qualified.

But meh, unplayable army etc.

Bloodknight
11-05-2008, 23:41
May I ask where you live and how high the incompetence level there is? ;)
As I said: in the German tournament circuit the DE rock. Tyranids get a few more victories and overall, but no other army beats the DE. They are the 9th most played army (just to put it into comparison: there were about 3000 SM, CSM and Eldar armies registered combined, and only 259 DE armies. Tyranids registered: about 650) and are 2nd in getting most 1st, 2nd and 3rd places, just after Tyranids (which is a new development, the DE reigned that list for at least a year).

Doctor Thunder
12-05-2008, 00:05
I say, if people like Danny Internet want to believe that Dark Eldar are not competitive in tournaments, let them believe just that. It will make it easier for DE players to win.

One of the biggest advantages I've found so far in play testing is that none of my opponents had much experience playing against Dark Eldar. That is a huge bonus when your opponent doesn't know what he's up against or what to expect.

Lord Raneus
12-05-2008, 00:48
WWP Wych cult (like any DE army) folds to any list with even a moderate amount of shooting. There's a reason they hardly even have a presence at tournaments, nevermind a good record at them (hint: it's not because they're effective).

Dark Eldar are amazing. Much of their 'dex is useless crap (Hellions, etc) but the stuff that works, is ridiculous. 1st-turn assualts with a 2+ Invul Archon that wounds everything on 4+ will make even a Hive Tyrant crap his pants. Dark Lances in abundance everywhere, lightning-fast assualts, etc, make DE a very good army if competently used. Their problem is they can't even use a good chunk of their codex, because it is utter trash. That's why it needs to be redone.

Bloodknight
12-05-2008, 01:02
Yep. The DE have a choice of 13 unit types (I accumulated all Lords into one), of which only 6 are good in a competitive sense. These 6 (Lords, Wyches, Warp Beasts, Incubi, Ravagers and Warriors) however border on the overpowered if applied in the right doses. The rest is utter crap (mandrakes, grotesques unless teaming up with somebody who can win cc, scourges, hellions) or only barely usable (reavers and the Talos).

I left the Haemonculus out of that equation because he is not exactly good, but the cheapest IC that can carry a WWP which makes him a staple of Kabalite WWP armies, while the Wych cult cannot take him at all.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 16:48
Err what?

I'm not going to go into the depth required to say what exactly is wrong with that post, so i'll just say "I disagree".

Fun fact: As shown here a DE army came 7th in the last UKGT.

Also IIRC all the DE players than entered the GT actually qualified.

But meh, unplayable army etc.

Uncompetitive is not the same as unplayable (reading comprehension may not be your strong suit).

Fun fact: the competition part in question (battle points) only makes up 53% of your overall score in a Grand Tournament. But of course you knew that (and conveniently left it out).

I've met tons of player who all claim that DE are soooo great even when they lose game after game after game. Many people have trouble coming to terms with their army not being very good, especially when they play for fluff reasons. I suppose it could just be some weird regional phenomenon where everyone in New York and Boston who plays DE just sucks though.

The_Outsider
12-05-2008, 17:26
Uncompetitive is not the same as unplayable (reading comprehension may not be your strong suit).

Subtle.



Fun fact: the competition part in question (battle points) only makes up 53% of your overall score in a Grand Tournament. But of course you knew that (and conveniently left it out).

Indeed, but even if it does only make up 53% of the score you don't get to 7th place by getting massacred every game.


I've met tons of player who all claim that DE are soooo great even when they lose game after game after game. Many people have trouble coming to terms with their army not being very good, especially when they play for fluff reasons. I suppose it could just be some weird regional phenomenon where everyone in New York and Boston who plays DE just sucks though.

I'm guessing the latter honestly.

I mean if I said I have lost maybe 10-15 games in over a year you'd easily just say "your opponents suck, stop n00b bashing" etc.

DE are a powerful army - even if the players you know suck balls with them.

x-esiv-4c
12-05-2008, 17:44
I'm thinking that New England DE players suck because down in the South East they are pretty damn vicious. As far as i'm concerned DE pose a serious threat and shouldn't be underestimated at all.

In my experience, DE is rarely a gamers first army. From what i've seen, a seasoned vet looks at the codex and realizes how much of a threat DE can be as long as it's guided by a sound, tactical mind.

gorgon
12-05-2008, 17:46
Aren't UKGTs mostly about battle points? I don't think they have the fluffy categories there like we do in the US.

Then consider their heat system means the player in question didn't just catch lightning in the bottle one weekend. Seventh at the UK finals means something.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 18:47
Since the issue of tournament placing has come up, I have reviewed the results of the two most recent US Grand Tournaments (mostly because the results were easily accessible from the website). While I think that using GT results as a way of proving that an army is competitive has serious flaws (among them the fact that very significant weight is placed on sportsmanship and painting, and that tables at these tournaments typically have very sparse terrain), perhaps these are telling, all things considered.

2007 Baltimore GT:
Total qualifying players: 163
Total qualifying DE players: 6
Highest DE player rank: 14
Lowest DE player rank: 162

When ranked by battle score ONLY:
Highest DE player rank: 17
Lowest DE player rank: 160


2007 Chicago Grand Tournament
Total qualifying players: 116
Total qualifying DE players: 0 (!)

Of note: not a single DE player qualified for the tournament. Armies that did make it even included Daemonhunters (2), Witchhunters (1), Grey Knights (1), and Kroot Mercenaries (1), Sisters of Battle (1).

electricblooz
12-05-2008, 19:03
2007 Chicago Grand Tournament
Total qualifying players: 116
Total qualifying DE players: 0 (!)

Of note: not a single DE player qualified for the tournament. Armies that did make it even included Daemonhunters (2), Witchhunters (1), Grey Knights (1), and Kroot Mercenaries (1), Sisters of Battle (1).

You misunderstand the US GT system. There are no qualifying heats in the US GT system, "you pays your money and takes your seat."

A more appropriate question would be, "at these GT's was the Wych cult list legal?" In terms of shear broken-ness, Wych Cult definitely ranks and needs to be addressed.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 19:05
My apologies on the qualifying part. Regardless though, the fact that no one even bothered to bring DE to the tournament is interesting in itself.

Edit: just googled around a bit and found records of Wych Cult armies participating in US Grand Tournaments in the past (2006).

Draconian77
12-05-2008, 19:11
"A more appropriate question would be, "at these GT's was the Wych cult list legal?" In terms of shear broken-ness, Wych Cult definitely ranks and needs to be addressed."

I have played with and against the Wych Cult WWP army numerous times and its not really broken, it just requires a completely different way of playing the game to win. Ill admit some armies might have difficulty against it but that can comparison can be made between many 40k races/lists.

I think 5th ed should be interesting for DE, wasn't it rumoured that you couldn't pile in or sweeping advance to start a new combat? That could be a big blow to them as their units cannot take even a minor a amount of double tapping.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 19:17
wasn't it rumoured that you couldn't pile in or sweeping advance to start a new combat? That could be a big blow to them as their units cannot take even a minor a amount of double tapping.

I believe that rumor was started by a mis-reading of the rules from the leaked PDF which clearly state that you cannot consolidate into an existing
combat, not that you cannot consolidate and start an entirely new one. Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I have an out-dated version though.

Draconian77
12-05-2008, 19:22
Don't have the leaked PDF, can't tell you which is right.

On another subject with no terrain blocking Los it wouldn't be hard for an enemy army to shoot one of the WWP carriers down. An extremely shooty force could even end the game by turn 1 which would be a riot. That is of course assuming terrain set ups stay as they are now.

But currently a well build and used DE list is effective although I have to say I wasn't really I fan of WC WWP back in the day, I was more of a "Those tanks look cool I'm taking 8" sort of a guy.

The_Outsider
12-05-2008, 19:25
A more appropriate question would be, "at these GT's was the Wych cult list legal?" In terms of shear broken-ness, Wych Cult definitely ranks and needs to be addressed.

Wych cult is part of the codex list, I HIGHLY doubt any tournamanet anywhere would disallow it (thats like disallowing a Goff ork army because they don't like it).

[Edit] its also worth noting that DE have a much larger playerbase in the UK over the US - and the models are easier to get which is a contributing factors.

That and isn't the US GT standard 1750 or 1850? That changes things a lot when you compare it to the UKGT limit which is 1500 (those 250+ extra points really shifts the balance of some units, like falcons for example).

electricblooz
12-05-2008, 19:47
Wych cult is part of the codex list, I HIGHLY doubt any tournamanet anywhere would disallow it (thats like disallowing a Goff ork army because they don't like it).

[Edit] its also worth noting that DE have a much larger playerbase in the UK over the US - and the models are easier to get which is a contributing factors.

That and isn't the US GT standard 1750 or 1850? That changes things a lot when you compare it to the UKGT limit which is 1500 (those 250+ extra points really shifts the balance of some units, like falcons for example).


My Bad - we have no more than two or three DE players around here (but all of them play WWP Wych Cult). I had gotten the idea that it was a sub-dex or back of the book army list.

I think you are probably right about the issue of model availability a player base here in the US.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 20:06
That and isn't the US GT standard 1750 or 1850? That changes things a lot when you compare it to the UKGT limit which is 1500 (those 250+ extra points really shifts the balance of some units, like falcons for example).

http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/assets/2007GT40kRules.pdf

I believe all of the 2007 season tournaments were 1750 in the US. This brings up a very good point about point level affecting balance. The stores that I have played in over the years adopted the 1750/1850 point values almost immediately upon them becoming more or less the standard for US tournaments. It's very rare that we play 1500 around here.

wingedserpant
12-05-2008, 20:31
I didn't really think a Talos could "Run" since it doesn't have legs,

It uses its arms and tail to sort of swim across the battlefield.

Draconian77
12-05-2008, 22:49
Or take a few DE from your dead pile and have them push it...

Run might make the Talos useful but the Ravager is a much nicer model IMO.

kenny3760
12-05-2008, 23:14
Fun fact: the competition part in question (battle points) only makes up 53% of your overall score in a Grand Tournament. But of course you knew that (and conveniently left it out).

Not quite right Mr Internet. in UKGT's your ranking is entirely dependant on battle points, theres no comp, painting or sports crap over here.

Anyway, DE in 4th were a mighty powerful army, how they'll do in 5th I'm not sure.
I reckon there will be a return to the air force still list, but maybe not raider rush as the Ravager with 1 lance and 2 dissies or 3 dissies will be pretty powerful. I can see lists with 3 of these in them. I think we'll also see the Raider squad of 5/6 warriors with DL and blaster rather than the CC variety.
CC I haven't decided on yet, depends on the "counter charge" rule as the kill zone will no longer exist if this is in force. Add into that further problem with LOS and cover enabling enemies to target you after a wipeout and it's a mixed bag for me.
Reavers will pretty much dissaper I reckon as they're only real use was as objective grabbers and that'll be gone if troops only are scoring.

Bloodknight
12-05-2008, 23:42
3 Ravagers with Lance and 2 Dissies or 3 Dissies are pretty popular even now; it's got the most effective defensive weapon in the game, is cheap pointswise and simply better than the other HS choices. I would even go so far to say that for a tournament army, the Ravager is the only HS choice.


edit: funny. I checked this year's Heats 1 and 2 of the German GT, and nobody of 96 players over 2 heats played DE. Weird. But then, the GT is a comparably small tournament (and pretty unusual because it allows special characters and is generally unrestricted. Most tourneys do not allow triple choices in the FOC. For example you can take 1 unit of chosen and two units of Terminators, but not 3 of one of them.) and nobody brought Imperial Guard or Witchhunters. I noticed 5 Tau players, of whom only one qualified. Two people played Space Wolves (0 qualifications). A single guy brought DH and failed. The rest was utterly dominated by Eldar, Tyranids and Space Marines, with a few Orks and Necrons inbetween. :) AFAIK people called it "the great Eldrad bash", because almost every Eldar army included Eldrad Ulthran.

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 00:30
My apologies on the qualifying part. Regardless though, the fact that no one even bothered to bring DE to the tournament is interesting in itself.


I can offer up two reasons:

1) The models suck. By that, I mean that most people hate the models. Tournament armies are just as expensive to make and paint as any other army, and if you hate the models, you are going to look elsewhere, even if it is a very competitive build. I mean, as much as OPWDKWTATA's* like to portray tournament players as cut-throat powergamers who care about winning and nothing else, I have NEVER met a tournament player who didn't care heavily about what the models looked like.

2) Looming reset means a shorter lifespan. Tournament armies, unlike regular armies, have limited lifespans. As rules change and codexes are redone, a tournament army looses some of it's teeth and has to be redesigned, even redone entirely. Dark Eldar have been rumored for a revisiting for about eight years now. Tournament players are reluctant to make an army when it is about to be redone, possibly invalidating the entire army, and wasting gobs of money and time.



* online-posters-who-don't-know-what-they're-talking-about

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 04:43
I can offer up two reasons:

1) The models suck. By that, I mean that most people hate the models. Tournament armies are just as expensive to make and paint as any other army, and if you hate the models, you are going to look elsewhere, even if it is a very competitive build. I mean, as much as OPWDKWTATA's* like to portray tournament players as cut-throat powergamers who care about winning and nothing else, I have NEVER met a tournament player who didn't care heavily about what the models looked like.

2) Looming reset means a shorter lifespan. Tournament armies, unlike regular armies, have limited lifespans. As rules change and codexes are redone, a tournament army looses some of it's teeth and has to be redesigned, even redone entirely. Dark Eldar have been rumored for a revisiting for about eight years now. Tournament players are reluctant to make an army when it is about to be redone, possibly invalidating the entire army, and wasting gobs of money and time.



* online-posters-who-don't-know-what-they're-talking-about

I can offer up a better reason: they suck.

Regardless of what's coming around the bend, the most cut-throat of competitors will go with what works best in order to win. With a player base on a national scale there are plenty of people for which money and time are not really issues. The fact that none of them thought it was worth it to bring DE to the competition is far more telling than a single player in the UK who was only moderately successful in one GT.

The_Outsider
13-05-2008, 13:16
I can offer up a better reason: they suck.

Regardless of what's coming around the bend, the most cut-throat of competitors will go with what works best in order to win. With a player base on a national scale there are plenty of people for which money and time are not really issues. The fact that none of them thought it was worth it to bring DE to the competition is far more telling than a single player in the UK who was only moderately successful in one GT.

If thats the case then, none of the DE should of qualified, but they did so clearly they don't "suck".

There is a reason why warseer (as a whole) says DE are a lethal army in the irght hands, not because they all like bondage elves in space, but because DE can rape most things hard.

Besides, if DE can do that well in the UKGT (which really is the one to win) with a nearly decade old codex, then surely there is something wrong?

Koryphaus
13-05-2008, 13:30
Reavers will pretty much dissaper I reckon as they're only real use was as objective grabbers and that'll be gone if troops only are scoring.

Not necessarily true, they became troops in Eldar, there is no real reason why GW cannot make them troops when they redo Codex DE

kokujin_atsuhara
13-05-2008, 14:36
Not necessarily true, they became troops in Eldar, there is no real reason why GW cannot make them troops when they redo Codex DE


Perhaps the fact than in that case, there'll be only one fast attack choice.

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 14:39
I can offer up a better reason: they suck.


You have to understand, Danny, that you have chosen a difficult position to defend. You are arguing against the general consensus of tournament players, and you are also arguing against the experience of many DE players, like myself.

Given that, you are going to need much more convincing arguments then the ones you have been presenting if you hope to win any followers to your side of the argument.

If you want to believe they suck, you need nothing to back that up. If you want to convince others to believe they suck as well, you've got a long and steep path ahead of you.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 15:10
If thats the case then, none of the DE should of qualified, but they did so clearly they don't "suck".

There is a reason why warseer (as a whole) says DE are a lethal army in the irght hands, not because they all like bondage elves in space, but because DE can rape most things hard.

Besides, if DE can do that well in the UKGT (which really is the one to win) with a nearly decade old codex, then surely there is something wrong?

It's all about statistics and averages. Put a crappy army in the hand of an extraordinary player and he'll probably do fairly well. Put a great army in the hands of someone terrible and they will likely fail. It's likely that the DE player was simply a very talented strategist. If he had played a truly competitive list he might have come in first.

A single case of anecdotal evidence doesn't serve as proof that the list is competitive. If it was then there would be more than a single case to support that theory, especially with the prevalence of power-gaming in the tournament circuits worldwide.

Sure, DE can absolutely rape things hard...if they can get into combat and stay there. Against most competitive armies they simply can't and this costs them games. It's too easy to wipe out the units en route, particularly when they come in piecemeal.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 15:21
You have to understand, Danny, that you have chosen a difficult position to defend. You are arguing against the general consensus of tournament players, and you are also arguing against the experience of many DE players, like myself.

Funny, the general consensus of tournament players in the US, as evidenced by the results of the last 2 GTs (over 300 participants), is that DE aren't really worth bringing in the first place. So how exactly do the 6 people disagreeing with me in this thread constitute a consensus of tournament players again?


If you want to believe they suck, you need nothing to back that up. If you want to convince others to believe they suck as well, you've got a long and steep path ahead of you.

Frankly, the only reason I'm even explaining my position is because I'm shocked that anyone who regularly participates in tournaments would disagree with me. Every time I face them in a local tournament I'm overcome with relief because I know I'm getting free battle points. I don't really want to convince people to give up any army that they are obviously dedicated to, especially since I have a tournament coming up at the end of the month and I wouldn't mind winning a fourth.

Bloodknight
13-05-2008, 15:28
New York must be Bizarro Country *g*. Free VP vs DE? What are you playing? Shooty SM on tables without any cover?

The_Outsider
13-05-2008, 15:38
I am just shocked that someone seriously claims that an army known for its power and damage output is beling labled about as weak as pure GK.

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 16:53
Funny, the general consensus of tournament players in the US, as evidenced by the results of the last 2 GTs (over 300 participants), is that DE aren't really worth bringing in the first place. So how exactly do the 6 people disagreeing with me in this thread constitute a consensus of tournament players again?

1) There are other reasons to not bring them besides their power level. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The important information is how well they tend to preform when they are taken to tournaments, which you are choosing to discredit because it does not back up your point. I would counsel against discrediting the information we do have. You should base your position on the evidence, not pick and choose evidence based on whether or not it reinforces your position.

2) You are the only person I have ever heard voice your particular opinion about Dark Eldar at tournaments.


Frankly, the only reason I'm even explaining my position is because I'm shocked that anyone who regularly participates in tournaments would disagree with me.
If you can't tell already, we are just as shocked at your opinion as you are at ours.


Every time I face them in a local tournament I'm overcome with relief because I know I'm getting free battle points. I don't really want to convince people to give up any army that they are obviously dedicated to, especially since I have a tournament coming up at the end of the month and I wouldn't mind winning a fourth.
It is all well and fine that you think that you are a skilled player, but you have to understand something about the internet. Anyone can claim that they have won anything and everything, but unless the results are posted online somewhere there is no way for us to verify that.
For all we know, you have never played 40K in your life, so you must forgive us if we do not accept your experience level as a valid reason to adopt your opinion.

If you want to make a convincing argument, focus your attention on the position itself, not the experience level of the person arguing the position, which is, in this case, yourself.

Marinox
13-05-2008, 16:56
I have a tournament coming up at the end of the month

where/when's the tournament?

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 17:20
where/when's the tournament?

March 31 - White Plains, NY. Not sure if they registered it as an RTT or not.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 17:29
1) There are other reasons to not bring them besides their power level. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The important information is how well they tend to preform when they are taken to tournaments, which you are choosing to discredit because it does not back up your point.

Lack of DE players at competitive events is not a lack of evidence--it is indeed evidence (ie support) itself. Argument is as follows:

National tournaments attract competitive players
Competitive players tend to field competitive lists
Grand Tournaments are national tournaments.
Hardly anyone brings Dark Eldar armies to Grand Tournaments.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dark Eldar are not a competitive army


I would counsel against discrediting the information we do have. You should base your position on the evidence, not pick and choose evidence based on whether or not it reinforces your position.

Wow, you counsel me against discrediting the support for your point? No kidding--doing so damages your argument. With regards to picking and choosing, even those with a rudimentary understanding of logic know that evidence to support a claim is largely a matter of interpretation of said evidence. Taking anything at face value when debating esoteric and relative qualities such as army list superiority and game balance is naive to say the least.


It is all well and fine that you think that you are a skilled player, but you have to understand something about the internet. Anyone can claim that they have won anything and everything, but unless the results are posted online somewhere there is no way for us to verify that.
For all we know, you have never played 40K in your life, so you must forgive us if we do not accept your experience level as a valid reason to adopt your opinion.

If you want to make a convincing argument, focus your attention on the position itself, not the experience level of the person arguing the position, which is, in this case, yourself.

...which is why I went through recent GT results in order to provide support for my argument rather than relying on anecdotal evidence. Try and keep up.

Vepr
13-05-2008, 17:30
Sorry a little off topic but I am surprised that GW did not plan a duel release for both WHFB and 40K for Dark Eldar. It seems it would have been perfect and really created a lot of excitement if they would have brought out a new codex and some models at the same time as they did the fantasy DE this fall.

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 17:38
Try and keep up.
No one likes to be talked down to, Danny.

You need to understand that even if you make good points, your tone will encourage people to ignore them, or even take the opposite stance.

I'm happy to discuss this, but only if you are willing to do so in a respectful manner.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 17:46
I am just shocked that someone seriously claims that an army known for its power and damage output is beling labled about as weak as pure GK.

Hardly any army is as bad as pure GK, though how you made the leap from what I said to that rather silly conclusion is beyond me.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 17:48
No one likes to be talked down to, Danny.

You need to understand that even if you make good points, your tone will encourage people to ignore them, or even take the opposite stance.

I'm happy to discuss this, but only if you are willing to do so in a respectful manner.

If you're going to participate in the discussion you can, at the very least, pay attention to what is being said. Not doing so is equally disrespectful, so consider us even (or develop thicker skin, whichever you prefer).

Bloodknight
13-05-2008, 18:00
Dark Eldar in the German GT 2007: 3 players brought them, 2 qualified, 1 won the GT, the other took place 7.

DE in the German GT 2006: 4 players brought Dark Eldar, 3 qualified, 1 won Heat1, all 3 in top 10 in finals.

DE in German GT 2005: 8 players brought, 4 qualified, 3 in top 10.

I cannot comment on 2008 further because not all heats have been played yet, and 2004 was still played with 3rd edition rules and the GW site does not show the statistics.

The numbers were actually quite disproportionate, I doubt that over 10% of all players own a DE army. The missing DEs in the newer tournaments have seemingly been replaced by more Craftworld Eldar, who always featured heavily, and with Eldrad/Avatar and triple-Harlie-Falcon spam have now slightly pushed the DE from their throne to only being able to reach the top 10 *g*.

In restricted tournaments that do not allow unit spamming and special chars, DE are usually only bested by Tyranids.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 18:07
Dark Eldar in the German GT 2007: 3 players brought them, 2 qualified, 1 won the GT, the other took place 7.

DE in the German GT 2006: 4 players brought Dark Eldar, 3 qualified, 1 won Heat1, all 3 in top 10 in finals.

DE in German GT 2005: 8 players brought, 4 qualified, 3 in top 10.

I cannot comment on 2008 further because not all heats have been played yet, and 2004 was still played with 3rd edition rules and the GW site does not show the statistics.

Now there is some worthwhile support. I honestly can't reconcile the success of German DE players with that of US players.

BTW, do you have a link to the results of the tournaments? I'm curious to look at a few other things as well. Unfortunately it seems GW doesn't post the UK results on the website.

Edit: Nevermind, found them here:
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2007/40k-final/index.shtm
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2006/40K-Final/index.shtm
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2005/40K/finale.shtm

According to the site 3 players did indeed bring DE to the 2006 German GT, however none of them placed in the top 10. They placed 11th, 13th, and 24th.

Also according to the site, of the 4 qualifying players in the 2005 GT, 2 (not 3) placed in the top 10 (8th and 9th).

Still impressive though, especiallly the 2007 winner.

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 18:12
If you're going to participate in the discussion you can, at the very least, pay attention to what is being said. Not doing so is equally disrespectful, so consider us even (or develop thicker skin, whichever you prefer).
I'm just trying to help you here. You need to learn that it's just not appropriate to make those kind of comments, and your justification is absurd.
You need to understand that your comments required extra effort. You went out of your way to type things in a rude way. I do not think it is reasonable for a person to type rude comments and then demand that people develop a thicker skin. It was your responsibility to be civil. It is not my responsability to allow you to be uncivil (which is what develop a thicker skin means)



In an attempt to salvage this thread, here's a tactic I have been working on. Since area terrain will no longer block LOS in 5th, I'm wondering if Dark Eldar vehicles might work better as long-range fire support rather than working at closer ranges. Here's the idea: If they set up as far back as possible, and are equipped with shadow fields, then most enemy guns are not going to be able to touch them, since the natural inclination of an opponent is to setup farther back when facing dark eldar, rather than farther forward.

Thoughts?

Bloodknight
13-05-2008, 18:13
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2007/
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2006/
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/gt/2005/
click on the Heat links. IIRC these were all Wych cult armies.

Oh, and I mistook something in 2006 (it's been a while I've been on the pages. I mixed something up there regarding the top 10, I just saw they did not reach them; probably confused that with another major tournament).


As for the vehicles: most people use these like landspeeders after emerging from the portal and dropping off the troops.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 18:28
I'm just trying to help you here. You need to learn that it's just not appropriate to make those kind of comments, and your justification is absurd.
You need to understand that your comments required extra effort. You went out of your way to type things in a rude way. I do not think it is reasonable for a person to type rude comments and then demand that people develop a thicker skin. It was your responsibility to be civil. It is not my responsability to allow you to be uncivil (which is what develop a thicker skin means)


I was likewise trying to help you here. Being hypersensitive on the internet is a good way to burn yourself out over very minor things. Just as it is your not your responsibility to allow me to be "uncivil", it is likewise not your responsibility to enforce your notion of civility on others, especially in an environment where you have absolutely zero authority, morally or otherwise.

So now we can both step down off our soapboxes.

Marinox
13-05-2008, 18:33
i took my DE to the baltimore GT last november...

i did fairly well, i won 3 out of 5, and one of the losses was simply because i'm a bonehead. i had the guy crushed on victory points...

:) you know the name of the venue where your tournament's being held, danny?

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 18:42
The group is called the Battle for Salvation (they play at the Salvation Army recreation room in White Plains, NY). I used to play with these guys regularly and then moved away, but I'm back in the area so I googled them up and played there last night.

The Yahoo group is here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/BattleforSalvation/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1

White Plains is in Westchester County, which I think is like 4-5 hours from Pittsburgh, but not entirely sure. They'd probably be glad to have you, especially considering it's a charity event.

x-esiv-4c
13-05-2008, 18:44
Best of luck out there Marinox!

Doctor Thunder
13-05-2008, 19:09
it not your responsibility to enforce your notion of civility on others

My notion of civility? I'm talking about the Warseer forum rules that you agreed to when you registered.

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 19:17
Who says we're talking about my notion of civility? I'm talking about the Warseer forum rules that you agreed to when you registered.

You're talking about your personal interpretation of those rules. You commented on a conversation which you clearly hadn't been keeping up with and I pointed that out--it was a perfectly civil way of doing so. If I wanted to be uncivil I would have called you an imbecile or used some other childish, ad hominem attack.

If you disagree then report my post, but don't sit here and play hall monitor.

Vepr
13-05-2008, 19:31
New 5th edition rule. Hall monitor. Heavy weapons get to reroll to wound on anyone trying to use their firing lane without a pass... ;)

Hug it out guys it is just a game. :p

Marinox
13-05-2008, 19:42
dunno if i'll be 100% able to go, but i'm gonna give it a shot.... dust off the ol' kabal and see what she can do... i havn't played them since the GT....

see if i can't give DE a better reputation....

lol....
where ever slaves roam happy and free ...... i'll be there.....
where ever children sleep soundly through the night..... i'll be there.....
where ever peace and happyness are among the people ..... i'll be there.....

to put an end to all that :)

Danny Internet
13-05-2008, 19:52
dunno if i'll be 100% able to go, but i'm gonna give it a shot.... dust off the ol' kabal and see what she can do... i havn't played them since the GT....

see if i can't give DE a better reputation....

lol....
where ever slaves roam happy and free ...... i'll be there.....
where ever children sleep soundly through the night..... i'll be there.....
where ever peace and happyness are among the people ..... i'll be there.....

to put an end to all that :)

In this case I would be happy to be proven wrong as I actually like the DE army concept.

I still haven't decided which army I'm going to take to the tournament though. I haven't reconfigured my main tournament army (Chaos) since the codex made my army unplayable (heavily customized Alpha Legion), so right now I'm deciding between Necrons and a mobile, mechanized shooty Space Marines list.

kenny3760
13-05-2008, 23:05
Originally Posted by Marinox
where/when's the tournament?
March 31 - White Plains, NY. Not sure if they registered it as an RTT or not.


I still haven't decided which army I'm going to take to the tournament though. I haven't reconfigured my main tournament army (Chaos) since the codex made my army unplayable (heavily customized Alpha Legion), so right now I'm deciding between Necrons and a mobile, mechanized shooty Space Marines list.

Better get a move on then Danny, even a dark eldar WWP couldn't get you there in time.

Crazy_Irish
14-05-2008, 01:21
Better get a move on then Danny, even a dark eldar WWP couldn't get you there in time.

The Date he mentioned was the date of his last tournament. not the one coming up.

As for Dark Eldar in 5th Edition. I think the tactics are going to change but not their sucksess. Dark Eldar benefit from some things and loose others but looking at he whole, i think they will still be as good as they are now, you just have to change your tactics.

volair
14-05-2008, 16:24
Disintegrators will become insane with the new template rules. Expect 3 ravager armies, and expect to have to spread out or lose clumps of your precious models.

The_Outsider
14-05-2008, 16:26
Who cares if they spread out? just move 12" and fire all of them on their minimal setting (whats that? S4 = defensive weapon?) and just annihilate entire units a turn.

Doctor Thunder
14-05-2008, 18:00
Who cares if they spread out? just move 12" and fire all of them on their minimal setting (whats that? S4 = defensive weapon?) and just annihilate entire units a turn.
Exactly. A ravager still puts out nine S4 AP3 shots on a unit even at maximum spread out distance.

kenny3760
15-05-2008, 09:32
Who's betting disintegrators get modified then, probably in a FAQ and definately in the new codex (if it ever arrives), to stop them being fired as a defensive weapon.

The_Outsider
15-05-2008, 13:36
However this does potentially make vect super super awesome.

Doctor Thunder
15-05-2008, 14:05
Who's betting disintegrators get modified then, probably in a FAQ and definately in the new codex (if it ever arrives), to stop them being fired as a defensive weapon.
Why? It's part of the weapon's fluff and mechanics.

The_Outsider
15-05-2008, 14:14
120 points for a tank that can wipe out a 150+ point MEQ squad easily? GW will never stand for it.

Fable
15-05-2008, 15:26
@DannyInternet

I disagree with your your assessment of DE power, but only from having played them myself. I've played as DE about 6 or 7 times (seems like a waste to have made a 2k pt army of them having said that) and I haven't lost with them, but I would never play with them in a tournament. Every tournament I've ever been a part of judges painting/converting and army composition as part of the final score, which is more of an American thing (In Europe there's less of a "no one loses" atmosphere to my understanding). This means that while genralship can be an important factor in your final placement the fact that you start off with hideously ugly models means you need to be an exquisite artist just to make them look presentable. Mine look like crap. Especially when compared to my Craftworld Eldar force, which thanks to the models themselves look far better than my mediocre painting should really allow. If you add to that the common belief that Dark Eldar are underpowered or weak you will probably lose points in the composition area simply for winning a battle (because how could someone win with a weak list unless they were powergaming cheaters?). I think a lot of players that would like to play DE in a tournament won't because they don't want to start off that deep in the hole in their placement, especially since they're paying to play. In fact I know one person who has just an attrociously high win percentage with DE, but he's a shop owner and will only play them in tournaments at his shop as he's not eligible for prizes, nor scoring for painting (since he paints on a similar skill level to me) or comp.

I think the changes to LOS rules could enocurage a lot of observant players to switch to DE if only for the DL spam list (they can pack a disturbing amount of firepower into a FOC). However, I was wondering if anyone else was worried about how the wound allocation changes could effect DE, considering that so much of their design is based around a unit supporting a syrabite?

LostTemplar
15-05-2008, 15:30
I fail to see in what this changes the Ravager in any way. Anyone who ever used one, knows that one is too few, two is good, three is always the best. i don't really understand why people are afraid of three ravager armies, when they are the only real Heavy Support that the Dark Eldar have. i own two on a 1500 points, and thats only because getting a third is a nightmare to paint.

Oh, and that 120+ killign machine, won't actually kill a 150+ unit. 1/3 miss, and 1/2 faisl to wound, thats what, 1/6 of the shots do anything? Cover not withstanding.

The_Outsider
15-05-2008, 15:35
I fail to see in what this changes the Ravager in any way.

It doesn't per se - it makes the ravager better in relation to 90% of other tanks in the game.

DE are about the only army that have access to lots of decent, vehicle mounted S4 weaponry. So while that pred needs to stay still to fire all its HB's and autocannon the ravager is flying up 12" and obliterating parts of a unit.

The ravager becomes a better anti infantry weapon than it is now simply because the risk of it is reduced.

Doctor Thunder
15-05-2008, 17:13
120 points for a tank that can wipe out a 150+ point MEQ squad easily? GW will never stand for it.
...For more then even years. ;)

Xuri-n
16-05-2008, 00:16
Surely having highly mobile anti infintry weapons is part of the dark eldar fluff? There meant to be piratical raiders, at least the last time I checked.

The_Outsider
16-05-2008, 00:25
Yes they are.

The more I look at the 5th ed rules (and get snippets from my local GW that has the new rules in (but are for staff eyes only)) the more I suspect DE are going to be very near the top of the food chain depending on how the daemons codex pans out (once everyone has adjsuted to the new rules) and any given new releases.

Xuri-n
16-05-2008, 12:38
About time they got some love and attention, only taken most of a decade

EpilepticMoose
16-05-2008, 16:55
The more I look at the 5th ed rules (and get snippets from my local GW that has the new rules in (but are for staff eyes only)) the more I suspect DE are going to be very near the top of the food chain depending on how the daemons codex pans out (once everyone has adjsuted to the new rules) and any given new releases.

Hey Outsider,
Would you mind listing some of the reasons you think DE will be better in 5th edition? I am interested in seeing what a seasoned vet thinks of the rumored changes...

kokujin_atsuhara
16-05-2008, 18:13
Hey Outsider,
Would you mind listing some of the reasons you think DE will be better in 5th edition? I am interested in seeing what a seasoned vet thinks of the rumored changes...

Here you have some reasons:
- Ravager doesn't lose firepower and benefits from the new blast rules. They can move 12" and fire one small blast and 6 F4FP3 shots. More than many other armies.
- Raiders: now, with an internal you get destroyed 66% of the times. But:
a) Now you have a 5+, leaving a 55% chances of being destroyed (5% above actually), but leave you a 33% of shots that does nothing.
b) Block LOS, so you can screen with them.
c) No entanglement.
d) Vehicle wrecked doesn't wound your troops!
e) You can load any unit in a dedicated transport, so if your CG's raider is destroyed, it can ride another.
- Talos: probably, can run

EpilepticMoose
16-05-2008, 21:37
Here you have some reasons:
- Ravager doesn't lose firepower and benefits from the new blast rules. They can move 12" and fire one small blast and 6 F4FP3 shots. More than many other armies.
- Raiders: now, with an internal you get destroyed 66% of the times. But:
a) Now you have a 5+, leaving a 55% chances of being destroyed (5% above actually), but leave you a 33% of shots that does nothing.
b) Block LOS, so you can screen with them.
c) No entanglement.
d) Vehicle wrecked doesn't wound your troops!
e) You can load any unit in a dedicated transport, so if your CG's raider is destroyed, it can ride another.
- Talos: probably, can run
Kokujin,
Thanks for the insights... those are good reasons, especially d). I didn't remember reading that a wrecked vehicle doesn't wound your troops... that would be a pretty amazing improvement!

The_Outsider
16-05-2008, 21:45
Supposedly it does wound your troops, but is at -1 S when its an open topped vehicle.

kokujin_atsuhara
17-05-2008, 13:24
Supposedly it does wound your troops, but is at -1 S when its an open topped vehicle.

No.
If the vehicle is destroyed-explodes, then your troops receive a S4 hit (-1 for open topped).
With destroyed-wrecked, you troops only have to disembark and check LD.
Inmobilised, count as wrecked.
So, half the times the raider is destroyed, your troops doesn't receive damage!

Crazy_Irish
17-05-2008, 14:13
that would be nice! very nice!

But there are a few things i see diferent. As i know, you only get the extra save, if you travel more than 12", good thing though. it's 4+.
so you have to choose between save or shoot.

Edit: and fast antigrav still travle 24". so orks will be slower than eldar, as it should be.

kokujin_atsuhara
17-05-2008, 15:45
that would be nice! very nice!

But there are a few things i see diferent. As i know, you only get the extra save, if you travel more than 12", good thing though. it's 4+.
so you have to choose between save or shoot.

Edit: and fast antigrav still travle 24". so orks will be slower than eldar, as it should be.

No, that's wrong.
To get the save, you need to move at cruising speed (between 6" and 12") or at flat out (up to 18").

Splata
17-05-2008, 15:55
Well i've definatly seen a different pdf to use crazy irish. As in the one that i might have seen you max move to 18 and you get the save at 6+ and it never gets to 4+.

Would be nice to have a differing save for faster, but that might make it too difficult to manage for easy playability.

kokujin_atsuhara. Interesting, that will help a bit! so on a 3-4 we will only have a Ld test at which we definatly are not the best at passing damn mid range LD...

But on the rest of those points i entirely agree. You can definatly expect to see an abandonment of WWP's and a take up of the old car park from me! Oh the power of shooting DE! Lots of ghost ships, lots of Splinter warrior raider squads, ravagers and small wych squads to navagate the new wound allocation problems.

Crazy_Irish
17-05-2008, 18:08
so kokujin_atsuhara you haven't heard anything about fast skimmers moving 24"?

@Splata: As I haven't seen a pdf i'm quite sure we have different sources;-)

@WWP: I am acutally switching to on, 'cause hiding my raiders will no longer work with the TLOS rules.

kokujin_atsuhara
17-05-2008, 23:16
so kokujin_atsuhara you haven't heard anything about fast skimmers moving 24"?

Not in 5th edition

Crazy_Irish
18-05-2008, 01:28
so have you read this threat--> http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143650

there they say the same thing as i do, and they claim to have read the book.....

kokujin_atsuhara
18-05-2008, 10:52
so have you read this threat--> http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143650

there they say the same thing as i do, and they claim to have read the book.....

Yes, thanks, I have read now.
Thanks a lot

Crazy_Irish
18-05-2008, 12:30
glad, i could help ;-)

Mad Larkin UK
18-05-2008, 14:35
poor dark eldar, its a mixed bag for them.
With the true LOS rules it will be hard to hide more than 1 raider completely, and they go down like a ton of bricks when a lascannon or autocannon looks in their direction. With the new damage table, if you fail your cover save, since your open topped and die on immobilised, thats a 3+ to kill your vehicles. Since you have armour 10 you will rarely be glanced.

Screening gives all your warriors a 4+ cover save, so spam darklances behind Grotesques and your laughing ;-)

The_Outsider
18-05-2008, 15:01
I suspect DE will be near the top of the food chain in 5th, everyone gets nerfed but DE as a whole doesn't feel the pain anywhere near what a lot of other armies do.

Clockwork-Knight
18-05-2008, 15:06
First, Dark Eldars need an update. You might never know how nerfed or broken they might become. But they'll probably get redone in 2 years. Perhaps 8, which means that 6th edition will come out. :p

kenny3760
18-05-2008, 16:46
What I see in 5th at 1500 points

WWP
3 Ravagers with 3 disintegrators (Mass troop killing)
3 Sniper squads
3 Raider Squads (to get objectives)
2 Wych squads (Tie up enemies troops)
Obligitory HQ (well you have to)

Tweek squad sizes as desired to fit to points and go win a couple of Gt's :evilgrin:

The_Outsider
18-05-2008, 17:00
IMO I doubt the WWP will be anywhere as "essential" (and I use the term lossely) as it is now.

Not to mention I have a sneaking suspicion incubi will be awesome again due to the 3+ save (as if they get stranded out of combat (which could become far more common) they can actually stand up gunfire unlike wyches).

I certainly won't be using more than a single wych squad.

Doctor Thunder
18-05-2008, 18:00
Here's something else I noticed while reading the leaked PDF.
In 5th, you roll to pick deployment zones, then the person who won that roll not only chooses deployment zone, but also automatically gets the first turn.
Well, that just makes the Nightmare Doll just about the best piece of wargear for Dark Eldar, because you can use it to force your opponent to re-roll that dice.
By my rough calculations, that means a Dark Eldar player with a Nightmare doll will get to go first about 74% of the time.

The_Outsider
18-05-2008, 18:13
If thats so we'll be seing haemonculi on a reaver jetbike with nightmare doll solely for that roll and with T5 its unlikely to wound him.

Crazy_Irish
18-05-2008, 20:50
@Doctor Thunder: That rule is not compleatly. The one who gets the first turn, fields his hole army first. So the one who goes second knows that he has to hide all his units.

That turns out to be very nice for de, as we can better plan our hunting

Doctor Thunder
19-05-2008, 05:31
@Doctor Thunder: That rule is not compleatly. The one who gets the first turn, fields his hole army first. So the one who goes second knows that he has to hide all his units.

That turns out to be very nice for de, as we can better plan our hunting

That's true, but with the mobile firepower of DE vehicles, and the insanely lone distances from which we can acheive a charge, going first is still going to be an enormous boon to the DE.

kokujin_atsuhara
19-05-2008, 08:06
Another rule that we have to think, is the "counter-charge", which mainly affects wyches:
In 5th ed, we can't charge a unit, hoping to kill 2-3 models, and don't get many attacks against.

How do you think this could affect us?

I think that, if we could use any raider to our incubi squad, we should very well substitute some wyches by them.

Crazy_Irish
19-05-2008, 08:33
and that close combat will be over sooner. the side that looses has to do a Ld test -the close combat result.

So if i kill 5 and he only 2 then he has to do a Ld test with -3 on his Ld.

As for the Counter-charge. this will only realy matter with big troups such as orks and nitz, and they should be shot to bitz. or trough in 2 big wyche squads. they should do the job ;-)

But i have to agree with you, that Inccubi will be more often seen than in 4th edition.

Doctor Thunder
19-05-2008, 15:22
Another rule that we have to think, is the "counter-charge", which mainly affects wyches:
In 5th ed, we can't charge a unit, hoping to kill 2-3 models, and don't get many attacks against.

How do you think this could affect us?

I think that, if we could use any raider to our incubi squad, we should very well substitute some wyches by them.
Well, that rule never appeared in any of the leaked PDF's and those who have seen the final rulebook haven't seen it, so I think that rumor has been disproved.

Splata
22-05-2008, 04:49
After Mad Larkin has read the new book and reported on it, I'd say (and i don't like being a nay-sayer as change needs to come over time) that we are screwed.

2/3 main points;

Our skimmers only get the cover save at flat out it seems (ie. 12+) and not the previously mentioned cruising speed (6+) which means that we can't deploy or shoot in the turns that we do this. This results in a LOT of dead transports and ravagers as on a penetrate roll they only need a 3+ to kill us(or is it 2+?) This will not be a hard feat to accomplish. Cover saves will be nice, but in order to use them you wil probably have to limit your shooting so you can't see the enemy so they can't see you.

kill points and no IC hiding.
Kill points mean that any transport we have counts as a kill point. This has the result of a raider being worth the same amount as a deathwing squad. In a raider carpark list we will have about 12 KP's in transports alone, then +6 for troops and +6 for elites and +3 for elities.
So no raider carpark you say. Lets go with WWP instead. First, each haemo is worth 3KP, so a regular WWP deployment group as is is
2 haemos +2 snipers +2 warriros = 10 KP just to get onto the board. Combine this with the fact that you will now have to have your haemo join your warriors so he doesn't get sniped and then you get a situation where your squads can get pinned or run off losing you the game.

Ok, Kill points are only 1/3 of games. But that is 1/3 of games you will almost automatically lose! just pack your things up and go home style.

The only way for us to play in this new edition if we want to win this style of game is go footslogger. Is that really the DE way? Are we really any good at this style of play? I hasten to think not.

/rant

kokujin_atsuhara
22-05-2008, 07:26
No, kill points doesn't work that way: 1 unit = 1 KP

So warriors=1KP
1 haemo = 1KP

Splata
22-05-2008, 08:44
So now it has been modified to everything worth 1KP?

Still doesn't help with our transports issue. Or really any issue i pointed out because our units are quite cheap, especially when we load them on transports (max 10 troops) so we will be fielding a lot of KP's no matter what we do

kokujin_atsuhara
22-05-2008, 14:40
Yes, so I think that the full theme of DE will be very hard to follow.

I'm thinking about ways of putting firepower and assault units...but it's difficult.
I'm thinking about 2-3 big sniper squads, a unit of wyches and a HW with retinue, to have two good CC units.

What do you thinkż?

Doctor Thunder
22-05-2008, 15:22
What do you thinkż?
How do you get that upside down question mark?

Anyway, my plan is to use the nightmare doll to help me get the first turn, and strike very hard and very fast, since kill points penalize small units that are easy to destroy. I am going to focus on the things that get better in 5th edition, namely Disintigrators, Horrorfexes, and HTH monster characters that can win the HTH practically all by themselves, backed up by wych retinues whose dodge save hopefully minimizes return casualties.

Here is my current 1750 point list for 5th edition:
(Note, the raider squads never disembark)

HQ:
Archon with Shadow Field, Combat Drugs, Splinter Pistol, Agonizer, Nightmare Doll, and Plasma Grenades. (153 Points)
HQ:
Wych Dracite with Wych Weapons, Splinter Pistol, Agonizer, and Plasma Grenades. (68 Points)

Elites:
9 Wyches with Wych Weapons. One upgraded to Succubus with Agonizer and Plasma Grenades. (147 Points)
Raider with Dark Lance, and Slave Snares. (70 Points)
Elites:
9 Wyches with Wych Weapons. One upgraded to Succubus with Agonizer and Plasma Grenades. (147 Points)
Raider with Dark Lance, and Slave Snares. (70 Points)

Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)
Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)
Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)
Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)
Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)
Troops:
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, one with Blaster and one with Splinter Cannon. (55 Points)
Raider with Disintegrator and Horrorfex. (65 Points)

Heavy Support:
Ravager with 3 Disintegrators and Horrorfex. (125 Points)
Heavy Support:
Ravager with 3 Disintegrators and Horrorfex. (125 Points)
Heavy Support:
Ravager with 3 Disintegrators and Horrorfex. (125 Points)

kokujin_atsuhara
22-05-2008, 16:34
mmm

That's something similar to what I have thinked.

What about incubi?
Any dark lance to deal with vehicles?

And what about the lith?

The_Outsider
22-05-2008, 16:37
To be honest i'm going to wait until I have a fair few number of games with the new rules under my belt before I start dicking around with a list i've spent ages getting "right" for myself.

If this proves that my list cannot work (i.e the army is unable to adapt (which I find unlikely)) only then will I consider changing.

Sometimes being preemptive isn't always a good idea.


[edit] Also calling it now, incubi will be awesome because they are a retinue.

Doctor Thunder
22-05-2008, 16:53
To be honest i'm going to wait until I have a fair few number of games with the new rules under my belt before I start dicking around with a list i've spent ages getting "right" for myself.
If I was in your situation I'd agree, but I'm still building my army, and so waiting around for a few months seems wasteful to me.


What about incubi?
I think they'd work fine too. I like wyches because of the 12 inch assault they occasionally get.


Any dark lance to deal with vehicles?
Blasters are lance weapons too. I did put a couple dark lances on the wyches raiders, but I think Disintigrators are just sooo much better I'd rather have lots of those.


And what about the lith?
The monolith? I play necrons and the best way to deal with a monolith, IMO, is ignore it and let it dissapear when the army phases out.

Crazy_Irish
22-05-2008, 17:01
[edit] Also calling it now, incubi will be awesome because they are a retinue.


Why is that good that they are a retinue? is there a new rule that comes with 5th edit. that makes them what they should be?

Rosicrucian
22-05-2008, 17:14
Well, that rule never appeared in any of the leaked PDF's and those who have seen the final rulebook haven't seen it, so I think that rumor has been disproved.

Those posting spoliers in the "5th edition thoughts" thread seem to have confirmed universal countercharge.

See this post: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2629838#post2629838

(http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2629838#post2629838)

The_Outsider
22-05-2008, 22:16
Why is that good that they are a retinue? is there a new rule that comes with 5th edit. that makes them what they should be?

Unless im mistaken under the new rules any character with any retinue is treated like a squad champion, so that hidden powerfist means an incubi can take one for the team while the archon hacks the squad down.

Splata
23-05-2008, 00:35
In this edition, unless i'm mistaken an IC is just part of a squad and can't be singled out. Although the IC can only attack if there is someone within 2" when it is their turn to attack. Thinking about this, it doesn't make sense, it has to be 2" at the start of the CC. But yeah, an archon in a wych squad, the wyches can take the heat from the archon too. So not sure if a retinue does anything (unless your saying a body guard feature where any attacks assigned to the archon can be put onto the incubi, which saves a shadow field cost).

The_Outsider
23-05-2008, 08:06
In this edition, unless i'm mistaken an IC is just part of a squad and can't be singled out. Although the IC can only attack if there is someone within 2" when it is their turn to attack. Thinking about this, it doesn't make sense, it has to be 2" at the start of the CC. But yeah, an archon in a wych squad, the wyches can take the heat from the archon too. So not sure if a retinue does anything (unless your saying a body guard feature where any attacks assigned to the archon can be put onto the incubi, which saves a shadow field cost).

IC's are treated as seperate units in CC for hits and wound allocation as it is now.

Besides, a wych squad wouldn't change this as they aren't a retinue.

So when the rules change the archon goes form being able to be singled out with his incubi to being untouchable while the squad lives.