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Grudgebringer88
16-10-2005, 00:46
This situation came up during a game of mine last week where my opponent's unit champion was out of base contact at the start of his turn. So he wanted to move him into BtB with my models.

I thought only characters were allowed to shoulder their way through the fighting in their movement phase, but when I called him on it, I couldn't find the rule to back me up. Without proper evidence and since it was a friendly game, I allowed it.

Am I wrong about this rule, and can champions indeed move within units, or did I fail to find the correct page and section in the Big Red Book?

Arnizipal
16-10-2005, 01:32
The rule you're looking for is found on p97: Moving characters within engaged units.

You were correct btw, these rules say nothing about moving champions.

Festus
16-10-2005, 11:22
Hi

Yes, you were right: Characters are allowed to move within units in the second or subsequent combat rounds if not already engaged, champions are not.

And it is usually the other way round: If he cannot show you the rule that allows him to do something, he probably shouldn't do it.


Greetings
Festus

Arthion
16-10-2005, 17:48
No, Champions can't move within the unit in CC. Although they can almost do everything a hero can. Heck HE ones even have a magic items allowance. But the price for their cheapness is they can't leave the unit or move once the combat begins, and of course worse ability scores.
But note that as long as you aren't in CC you may move him from the right i.e. to the left of the standard bearer if it's in the unit, if not the musician gets the priority upon being placed in the middle, and the champion may opt for being to his right or left.

Avian
16-10-2005, 19:00
I tend to allow this, as there is really no logical reason for a champion to stay where he is and polish his fingernails, while the hero leaps into the action.

Festus
16-10-2005, 21:47
Hi

It's a game balance thingy: This way champions can't issue challenges if the unit is attacked unfavourably (i.e. in the flank or rear).

Greetings
Festus

Avian
17-10-2005, 12:43
Eh?
Models can't move in the rank until their own next movement phase anyway, so it's not as if it matters much.

peteratwar
17-10-2005, 13:38
Champions certainly can't move around within a unit unless you are reforming. A character can in the next movement phase. Can be highly useful against a flank attack for instance.

Griefbringer
17-10-2005, 16:15
It's a game balance thingy: This way champions can't issue challenges if the unit is attacked unfavourably (i.e. in the flank or rear).


Would it really make much of a difference? Champions issuing challenges are not really the scariest thing in the world.

Festus
17-10-2005, 17:52
Hi

It is not scary that they issue a challenge, but this severly hampers a character's freedom to do as it pleases.

There are several scenarios where a challenge may spoil the plan:

Blood Dragons, Brettonians, Speculum, High and Dark Elves, ...

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
17-10-2005, 17:56
SpeculumWhy would the speculum be a problem if a champion challenges?

Izram
17-10-2005, 20:02
If the character with the speculum wants to use it on a character and not the championp; they charge in the rear or flank, only the enemy character would move to a fighting position and so only that character could end up in a challenge with the speculum holder.

is that a possible scenario?

Anyway, a champion cannot be moved during combat, only during a reform.

Atrahasis
18-10-2005, 09:44
The speculum is an entirely optional item - the bearer MAY choose to swap stats with his opposite in a challenge, but doesn't have to. If you end up in a challenge with a champion, just keep your own stats and splat him, and then challenge again next turn.

Avian
18-10-2005, 12:06
Hi

It is not scary that they issue a challenge, but this severly hampers a character's freedom to do as it pleases.
Ooo-kay, but how does this make it a game balance thingy?

peteratwar
18-10-2005, 12:16
Well, champions are no longer characters & allowing them to rush round like characters goes against that. Keeps in balance the champions basic but enhanced capabilities against the characters' far better abilities.

Avian
18-10-2005, 14:51
So - essentially - the difference between:
"It's probably an oversight."
and
"It's for game balance."

is whether or not you like the idea? :D

NakedFisherman
18-10-2005, 15:12
The speculum is an entirely optional item - the bearer MAY choose to swap stats with his opposite in a challenge, but doesn't have to. If you end up in a challenge with a champion, just keep your own stats and splat him, and then challenge again next turn.

You can't challenge again.

Please note that heroes can move around because they are truly heroic individuals. Champions require their place in the unit. :P

I don't think it's a game balance issue between armies, but simply that champions should not behave like characters.

peteratwar
18-10-2005, 15:33
If one challenge has finished due to the death of one of the combatants then another challenge can be issued if the units are still locked in combat

NakedFisherman
18-10-2005, 16:41
If one challenge has finished due to the death of one of the combatants then another challenge can be issued if the units are still locked in combat

One per combat. First sentence under the rules for challenges.

Avian
18-10-2005, 16:55
Peratwar is correct; you can only have one challenge going per combat, but if one challenge finishes you can initiate another.

NakedFisherman
18-10-2005, 17:47
Peratwar is correct; you can only have one challenge going per combat, but if one challenge finishes you can initiate another.

I was always going off this part of the BRB:

'One challenge can be issue din each combat that is being fought.'

But later it says 'Once the challenge is underway no further challenges may be issued in that combat until one character is slain.'

Hrm. My Tyrant likes that. :P

Avian
18-10-2005, 18:31
Yep, it means that a challenge (or an accepted challenge) from the champion means that your character is safe for one turn, but once the poor champ has been splatted it's your turn. :evilgrin: