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Shamfrit
28-04-2008, 18:30
Simple question. The 4+ ward, against shooting and missiles...

Does it cover wounds taken from setting up or moving through woods since the cannon's technically a chariot?

Menset
28-04-2008, 18:46
Sorry but you won,t get your save it states on pg 62.

"Apply these hits immediately as the chariot touches the terrain/obstacle, treating them as hits from close combat"

Also you will only take the hits when you move not for just setting up.

Shamfrit
28-04-2008, 18:48
Cheers Menset, I can roll with that, as long as I get a wood on my half, which is an interesting option now I know it won't hurt it to begin with...

Thanks again.

Atrahasis
28-04-2008, 18:51
You'll take the hits as soon as you pivot to fire though.

Milney
28-04-2008, 19:12
You'll take the hits as soon as you pivot to fire though.

Pivoting warmachines to fire doesn't count as moving, surely, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to fire (can't move a warmachine and shoot it).

It's simply a formality to show what it is shooting at.

In fact, let me dig out some rules to show your assumption is false (hopefully).


p29, Warhammer Armies: Skaven;

"The Warp-lightning Cannon is a move-or-fire weapon, like all other war machines"

p62, BRB;

"In effect, chariots can turn to face any direction at any point during thier move and as many times as they like without reduction to thier movement"

These rules imply pretty emphatically that the pivot does not count as a move - as not only could the war-machine not fire if it was, but it also doesn't use any movement even if it did it in the movement phase.

Of course, this could be rules lawyered both ways due to the phrasing of;

"Apply these hits immediately as the chariot touches the terrain/obstable"

But if you read that RAW, then even if the model didn't move it'd still take hits. It's as if the chariots are allergic to terrain and failed to remember thier inhalers for the battle...

Meh.

Atrahasis
28-04-2008, 19:23
The wording of the rules for shooting with war machines heavily implies that pivoting to fire is movement.

Milney
28-04-2008, 19:33
The wording of the rules for shooting with war machines heavily implies that pivoting to fire is movement.

Source?

That phrase is arguably ambiguous aswell (I assume that this is phrase you refer to).

p85, BRB;

"In the shooting phase, a player may freely pivot a war machine to face any direction he likes before shooting. Apart from this, a war machine may not be fired in a turn when the machine itself, or even just its crew, have moved."

Apart from the word "Apart" (;)) this would seem to describe the pivot as something other than movement, as not only does it not take place in the movement phase, but it also doesn't use any movement.

Still I see where you are coming from. Such is the problem of making a warmachine (which moves as a skirmisher) that also count as a chariot (which has fairly strict movement rules). Poor Skaven players tbh :P

Shamfrit
28-04-2008, 19:39
I give in, I'll stick to hiding it behind the woods and shooting through it then, lol.

ZeroTwentythree
28-04-2008, 20:07
"Apply these hits immediately as the chariot touches the terrain/obstable"



Or does this imply that chariots take hits as soon as they touch it, but not thereafter?

xragg
29-04-2008, 00:36
pg 83 of BRB, "In the shooting phase, a player may freely pivot ... before shooting. Apart from this, a war machine may not be fired in a turn when the machine itself, or even its crew, have moved." Pivoting is moving, and the only movement allowed before shooting. The 'apart from this' phrase indicates pivoting is the execption to the normal move or shoot rule.

A chariot can pivot as much as it wants, but it is still moving. The pivot just doesnt cost you any of your movement distance. If you have an archer in a chariot and only pivot it so your target is in you line of sight, you still take a -1 penalty to the shot for moving.

Shamfrit
29-04-2008, 00:48
So on that note, firing outside of the 90 degree arc I set the cannon in will incur a D6 S6 cost?

My question then comes back, does the 4+ ward activate, as the ward is against anything other than combat, and you might notice, it's impossible to get into combat with the cannon (except by Overunning I think.) Does the Ward protect from terrain damage as well?

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2008, 00:51
It gets it's 4+ ward against those hits.
Firing it any direction except for straight forwards will incur a d6 st6 hits penalty when hiding in woods with it, as you must turn the machine to face the direction you wish to fire.

Considering the machine is t6 with 4 wounds and a 4+ ward the d6 st6 hits wont do a great deal of damage to it really.

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 06:26
The ward protects against "incoming missiles and spells", so does not work.

The cannon can never be in combat, ever.

DeathlessDraich
29-04-2008, 10:55
Not never ever - there are two circumstances (maybe more) where it could be!

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 10:59
If it is engaged in combat it is automatically destroyed, so it can't be "in combat" in the sense Shamfrit means.

Menset
29-04-2008, 11:55
The rules state \"treating them as hits from close combat\". Its not saying the thing is \"in close combat\".

There is a big difference.

The cannon will not receive its 4+ ward because it specifically states \"against shooting and missiles\".

It isn\'t even distributed like shoot so there can be no misconception.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2008, 12:13
It doesnt actually say that the ward save is "only" against shooting and magic.
It says is protected by a shimmering magical field that wards off incoming missiles and magic. And then states that it recieves a 4+ ward save.

Not quite the same thing as it saying "the cannon revieves a 4+ ward against shooting and magic".

The only instance of it restricting the ward save is when suffering a misfire, as it is specifically stated not to be allowed the ward save against the effects of the misfire.

Zapstorm
29-04-2008, 12:40
The warpstone confers a 4+ Ward save to the Warp-Lightning Cannon. This save does not protect it from any of the effects of the Misfire chart (Skaven Army Book, pg 28)




The only instance of it restricting the ward save is when suffering a misfire, as it is specifically stated not to be allowed the ward save against the effects of the misfire.



QFT


P.S: How can the cannon ever get into combat if it flees from overruns and pursuits as well?

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 12:42
It can be rendered Immune To Psychology/Unbreakable and thus unable to declare a flee reaction.

Zapstorm
29-04-2008, 12:43
Ahh didn't think of that, thanks! :)

ZeroTwentythree
29-04-2008, 15:35
Skaven book, p. 29:

"The Cannon can be fired in any direction, even through your own troops - no restriction applies whatesoever. For conveneince, it's better if you indicate a model as a target, and line up the barrel towards it."

The bold print is actually in the army book.

That indicates to me that you are not moving the WLC to shoot it, as it can shoot in any direction. Lining up the barrel at the target is indicated as merely "a convenience" in indicating a target.


So I'd say go ahead and drop your WLC in the woods.

Evil-Lite
29-04-2008, 15:39
Would agree with Zero.

Turning a warmachine to aim at your target is not moving the warmachine. If that was the case no warmachine would ever be able to fire becasue you are supposed to "line-up" your target so people know which direction you are firing. Since warmachines can not fire if they move...

Shamfrit
29-04-2008, 16:04
I'm going with Zero and Unwanted's approach to the ward save, will use the references to back it up when I drop it in woods next week, cheers everyone!

ZeroTwentythree
29-04-2008, 18:15
The (endless) debate over the STank has got me thinking...

Is the Warp Lightning Cannon a chariot or a war machine?

I may have missed it somewhere, but I didn't see it expicitly stated in the rules. In the movement section is says it moves like a chariot (with exceptions). In the shooting section is says it shoots like a war machine (with exceptions).

xragg
29-04-2008, 19:57
A cannon can fire any direction too, but you still have to pivot. Stating the WLC can fire any direction is to reinforce how skaven can shoot anywhere, even through friendly troops. You also skipped the first line of the paragraph that states a player must pviot the WLC the direction they want to shot it. You play as you want. I dont stick my WLC in woods anymore cause I feel its cheating to not take the terrain damage for pivoting.

Shamfrit
29-04-2008, 22:13
Lol Zero, your right, it does move like a Chariot, not that at definitely is a chariot.

As it stands I have no objection taking damage as we set up at the start of the game, obviously it would have to be dragged into the woods as the battle is set-up, however, I'm sure in the predatory time the slaves would be made to clear a circular area so that the cannon can pivot, obviously this isn't a game rule, it's common sense and decent artillery practice to clear your line of sight once you've barricaded/deployed.

I don't think there's a definite way to take this though as you're both bringing up good points.

ZeroTwentythree
30-04-2008, 13:25
A cannon can fire any direction too, but you still have to pivot. Stating the WLC can fire any direction is to reinforce how skaven can shoot anywhere, even through friendly troops. You also skipped the first line of the paragraph that states a player must pviot the WLC the direction they want to shot it. You play as you want. I dont stick my WLC in woods anymore cause I feel its cheating to not take the terrain damage for pivoting.

I usually cut to the chase and don't take the WLC in the first place because it sucks. Thus, I generally don't need to worry about putting it in the woods or pivoting or anything else. ;)

I'll check that first line thing, but that quote (direct from the book) above does say it can shoot any direction and that pointing at the target is optional.



Lol Zero, your right, it does move like a Chariot, not that at definitely is a chariot.


Later on there is a similar reference (in shooting) to it shooting as other warmachines.

The reason I bring it up is the same as the STank. If its a warmachine, the WLC doesn't give up 1/2 points for taking 1/2 wounds. Not that that will usually come up (in my experience), it's usually either fleeing, explodified, or untouched. But just for those rare cases...

DeathlessDraich
30-04-2008, 18:32
The bold print is actually in the army book.

That indicates to me that you are not moving the WLC to shoot it, as it can shoot in any direction.

As far as Warhammer is concerned, there is a difference between not moving and 'free movement' or movement which does not incur a penalty.

1) Lifting a weapon, swinging a weapon during combat is movement in real life but not Warhammer movement.
Similarly a single US1 model that turns to shoot/charge/march or move is not movement.

2) A chariot, fleeing unit or monster etc that pivots has moved but this movement is 'free' Warhammer movement.

3) The WLC is a chariot for *all* movement including free movement.

4) pg 83 shows that a pivoting warmachine is 'free movement' but movement nevertheless.


Therefore a WLC placed in woods will be able to shoot but should suffer D6 chariot hits if the barrel pivots at all.

ZeroTwentythree
01-05-2008, 13:36
Do jezzails that pivot to shoot should fire at -1 to hit, but not suffer from the "move or shoot" rule?

Just trying to be difficult. ;)

Falkman
01-05-2008, 14:24
Jezzails do not pivot to shoot, they are skirmishers and have a 360 degree LoS, they don't have to face whatever they are shooting at.

ZeroTwentythree
01-05-2008, 17:18
The skaven book says they have 360 degrees, but pivot to shoot.

But at any rate, I am changing my position on the WLC. If it was strictly the rules in the skaven book, I'd say it didn't count as moving. But the BRB has a reference to pivoting and something along the lines of "no other movement," implying that pivoting is moving. So I'll go along with DeathlessDraich etc. that there is apparently a subtle difference, as there is "doesn't count as moving" and "free movement."

Shamfrit
01-05-2008, 22:57
I'm just not going to bother with cannons then...

Unless someone wants to brave R&R? Phone da Boyz.