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D.J.
28-04-2008, 22:09
Kharn the Betrayer has been a loyal follower of Khorne for quite some time. He was such a good little butcher that Khorne resurrected him at least once when he died in the siege of the palace on Terra. So, question is: Will we be seeing Kharn become a daemon prince of Khorne before all is said and done?

Gobbo Trouble
28-04-2008, 22:16
i hope not i like him how he is.

besides, although he probably kills more than any other berzerker in the galaxy, thats all he does, roam around on his own (or with a warband mad enough to follow him) and kill. Most powerful chaos lords who get made up to daemons usually have huge armies under there command etc etc

BattleofLund
28-04-2008, 22:22
I say NO. Because Khârn already gets everything he has ever wanted, without being constrained by being bound to the Eye of Terror/other warpspace overlap/daemon-worship-saturated world. Eternal slaughter? Check. Snazzy red armour? Check. Kill-O-Meter in horned helmet? Check.

Who needs cloven hooves and wings anyway?

D.J.
28-04-2008, 22:27
You forgot the ultimate power axe. :D

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 22:28
Dito, that would be lame. Kharn is the epitome of a champion of his god, being a daemon prince would just make him generic. I did like his 2nd ed. incarnation a bot more because his major gift were 3 additional wounds ^^.

Latro_
28-04-2008, 22:29
the speed GW moves fluff on, you'll be lucky.
Plus he has a model, thats an even bigger nail in that coffin.

What they should really do is release a comic series like blood quest where he goes around fighting stuff (Lobo stlyey).
issue 1.
Kharn & Doombreed, round 1.

DC_Ravenor
28-04-2008, 22:32
kharn is one of the best special characters for his points, also he dies/is impaled in the horus heresy

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 22:42
He does, but he gets resurrected.


Kharn & Doombreed, round 1.

Assuming 2nd ed stat lines, when Doombreed had rules, he would eat Kharn alive, twice. Per second...^^.

Creeping_Death
28-04-2008, 22:49
I really hope not, Kharn has one of the coolest models in the CSM range, and is always my first choice of HQ.

Besides, I'm getting quite sick of seeing so many CSM armies fielding Daemon Prince's, I'm trying to avoid it.

Koryphaus
28-04-2008, 23:18
You think so? I hate it so much...

Creeping_Death
28-04-2008, 23:29
You think so? I hate it so much...

Really? How come?

I finally got round to finishing my Kharn a couple of weeks ago and I found it quite fun to do. Admittedly you could say it has no flexibility for poses etc. but then none of the metal models really do...

The only other model in the current CSM range that rivals Kharn for cool points, imo, is Typhus.

Bloodknight
28-04-2008, 23:38
It gets even cooler if you see that Kharn's model is 12 years old. The quality is brilliant still today, and even more compared to many other models floating around 1996.

Archangel_Ruined
28-04-2008, 23:47
You could easily field a daemon prince who is Kharn, if you so wished. He'll ascend to daemonhood some day, I'm guessing he's personally donated more skulls to khorne than Angron ever did. As for the rules, I like him as the ultimate 40k turbo-nutter, happy enough killing his own men when push comes to shove. He also has an awesome backstory. He doesn't need to be uprated, but I don't think anyone could criticise you for having a daemon Kharn in a nice fluffy khonate warband.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
29-04-2008, 00:43
Hmmm. I, personally, like Kharn as he is. The model, on the other hand...sure, it's well done, but if Kharn looked like he did in the last Codex I would be all over that ****...

Kandarin
29-04-2008, 02:55
Who's to say he's not a Daemon already? Daemonhood doesn't always mean becoming a 12-foot-tall ogre with wings.

TheOverlord
29-04-2008, 04:47
Kandarin has a point. 3rd Ed, a Daemon Prince is considered a Daemon for any purpose if he is given either the Stature, or he has more than ( I don't recall the exact number. I want to say 70) points of daemonic gifts.

So considering the incredible amounts of special rules for Kharn, I'd say he's a daemon prince. He's just a small one.

A small one that could cut you up in 3 parts before the first part hits the ground. :D

Oh, and Angron donated several hundred worlds worth of heads to Khorne already, if you count the days of Heresy and Armageddon. Kharn still has a ways to go yet, that lovable scamp.

Lothlanathorian
29-04-2008, 06:11
Kharn the Betrayer has been a loyal follower of Khorne for quite some time. He was such a good little butcher that Khorne resurrected him at least once when he died in the siege of the palace on Terra. So, question is: Will we be seeing Kharn become a daemon prince of Khorne before all is said and done?

Kharne has only died once and that was at the Imerial Palace. And I don't think he would want Princedom as that would limit his range and ability to go where ever he wants to slaughter.

Also, let us not forget that Angron and the WE were the cause of the First Armegaddon War.

Nazguire
29-04-2008, 06:27
Kharne has only died once and that was at the Imerial Palace. And I don't think he would want Princedom as that would limit his range and ability to go where ever he wants to slaughter.

Also, let us not forget that Angron and the WE were the cause of the First Armegaddon War.

And the Dominion of Fire....where 50,000 (a medium populated city) Khorne Berserkers and Angron subjugated a dozen or so planets....

a) where did 50,000 World Eaters come from?
b) Numbers GW...NUMBERS

Hellebore
29-04-2008, 06:34
Honestly I don't think he ever will. He just isn't capable of the slaughter required, he's too interested in his own kill count.

A khorne lord that leads masive armies into the galaxy to destroy everything could be granted daemonhood because they have the scope and power to sacrifice BILLIONS to khorne.

Kharn might kill a few hundred in his time, and he doesn't tend to lead armies.

Hellebore

pookie
29-04-2008, 08:38
Kharn might kill a few hundred in his time, and he doesn't tend to lead armies.

Hellebore

although the warbands he does lead, generaly end up dying anyway, even if the Enemy dont get them, Kharn will :D

Richter Kless
29-04-2008, 08:59
I don´t think Khârn (please spell it correctly) is interested in Daemonhood. Just like Abaddon isn´t interested in it.

Koryphaus
29-04-2008, 10:23
Really? How come?


Oh, I suppose I was unfair, its a well done model. But I just think its too static.. I wish so much that he looks like the drawing in the dex...


And the Dominion of Fire....where 50,000 (a medium populated city) Khorne Berserkers and Angron subjugated a dozen or so planets....

a) where did 50,000 World Eaters come from?
b) Numbers GW...NUMBERS

Space Marine Legions consitsted of upwards of a hundred thousand marines, the Ultramarines had way more than 200,000 IIRC. On Istvaan V Angron lead at least 50000 berzerkers to destroy the loyalist elements of the traitor legions.

pookie
29-04-2008, 11:25
Space Marine Legions consitsted of upwards of a hundred thousand marines, the Ultramarines had way more than 200,000 IIRC. On Istvaan V Angron lead at least 50000 berzerkers to destroy the loyalist elements of the traitor legions.

Angrons Legion was the most mauled tho, i think its fair to say that 50000 Zerks is a lot and possibly the entirity of Khornes Zerks.

*edit**

Mauled the most out of the Traitor Legions, especially when you consider the several thousand they butchered on Istvaan.

Richter Kless
29-04-2008, 11:32
You seem to suggest the World Eaters can't replace their casualties.
It's nowhere sad that those berzerkers were of the heresy era, the majority are probably renegades or newly created marines.

The_Outsider
29-04-2008, 11:36
I don´t think Khârn (please spell it correctly) is interested in Daemonhood. Just like Abaddon isn´t interested in it.

IMO this is right.

For any of the gods to "gift" a mortal (be it becoming a daemon prince or a spawn) you have to actively go looking for it. Not to mention Khorne is notoriously stingy of his gifts.

vampires are cool!
29-04-2008, 11:39
Is he stingy? I thought, baring Tzeentch, he was one of the more active toy givers.

The_Outsider
29-04-2008, 11:44
Well you don;t see many mutations given - much like slaanesh and tzeenetch do.

He is just as likely as any god to give out daemon gear (armour, weapons etc) and you typically have to work pretty hard to become a daemon prince.

This also makes me think - while they surely do exist there is never many mentions fluffwise of khorne having spawn - at least nowhere near the level of the other gods.

pookie
29-04-2008, 11:45
You seem to suggest the World Eaters can't replace their casualties.
It's nowhere sad that those berzerkers were of the heresy era, the majority are probably renegades or newly created marines.

sorry, i meant in the context used, there is no doubt that Khorne will have recruited more Zerks since the HH, but the process would involve plenty of aspirants dying before becomeing Zerks, the process tends to weed out all but the best and strongest.

Mercer
29-04-2008, 12:38
Lets face it Kharn is big, hard & nasty and doesn't need daemon hood to collect some skulls.

As others have mentioned, makes a change not to have a/be daemon prince.

Mercer

Nazguire
29-04-2008, 18:39
Oh, I suppose I was unfair, its a well done model. But I just think its too static.. I wish so much that he looks like the drawing in the dex...



Space Marine Legions consitsted of upwards of a hundred thousand marines, the Ultramarines had way more than 200,000 IIRC. On Istvaan V Angron lead at least 50000 berzerkers to destroy the loyalist elements of the traitor legions.


And put his entire Legion down below half strength in that one battle. Then had the rest of the Heresy left to fight, and no where does it say that the World Eaters were a large Legion either (common sense dictates the complete opposite) And then 10,000 years of constant battles.

I'm not saying that the World Eaters couldn't replenish their losses. Just that the idea of 50,000 Berserkers and Angron, which seems to be almost the entire Legion pre-Heresy, is a bit far fetched, and at the same time, way too little to be able to do the scale of damage GW indicates they did, as is the norm for GW.

Col. Tartleton
29-04-2008, 18:55
He still got his ass handed to him by the thrice blessed champion of Humanity itself, Sigismund.

Or so the legends speak. It is believed of the many champions slain by Sigismund on Terra, Kharne was among them.

And to whoever said That Angron has killed billions compared to Kharnes hundreds does not know Kharnes fluff.

Kharne has probably killed between 500,000 and 1 million souls in the last 10k years personally. I think thats more then Angron. Since he kills several thousand people a year not counting travel time.

Kharne isn't a demon, because demons are pussies.

Rockerfella
29-04-2008, 19:20
Do we know who snaffeld him at the palace of terra? Is there a story to this?

Cheers.

Gobbo Trouble
29-04-2008, 21:06
from what i remember he was found dead/barely alive atop a huge mound of dead bodies. WE took him back in there fighting retreat where he was found alive once onboard there starship.

Alessander
30-04-2008, 02:19
So the order of uber-ness would be Angron > Doombreed > Kharn?

Where would a standard Bloodthirster fit in there? Game wise, can Kharn stand up against a 'Thirster?

Lexington
30-04-2008, 02:49
This is one of those questions that sadly must be asked ever since the 3.5 Codex, where Daemonhood started being handed out like cupcakes at a pre-school. Oh, good job, Billy! You can count to ten! Here, have eternal life and unlimited power!

That said, I hope we never see Kharn as a Daemon Prince (or any other major advancement of the 40K timeline). Daemon Princes are pretty boring, when you get right down to it.

Koryphaus
30-04-2008, 05:42
And put his entire Legion down below half strength in that one battle. Then had the rest of the Heresy left to fight, and no where does it say that the World Eaters were a large Legion either (common sense dictates the complete opposite) And then 10,000 years of constant battles.

I'm not saying that the World Eaters couldn't replenish their losses. Just that the idea of 50,000 Berserkers and Angron, which seems to be almost the entire Legion pre-Heresy, is a bit far fetched, and at the same time, way too little to be able to do the scale of damage GW indicates they did, as is the norm for GW.

I cant remember exactly what the codex says, but could GW be counting cultists and khorne daemons in the number that Angron lead in his Dominion of Fire crusade? Khorne Daemons would certainly have to count as berzerkers, they are the avatars of the blood god after all, and cultists can certainly be bloodthirsty when they have to be.

So that 50000 wouldn't necessarily have to be purely World Eaters marines

Nazguire
30-04-2008, 05:51
I cant remember exactly what the codex says, but could GW be counting cultists and khorne daemons in the number that Angron lead in his Dominion of Fire crusade? Khorne Daemons would certainly have to count as berzerkers, they are the avatars of the blood god after all, and cultists can certainly be bloodthirsty when they have to be.

So that 50000 wouldn't necessarily have to be purely World Eaters marines


Well yeah, there would be boat loads of demons and things (which generally need to be summoned to get to the real world...and being Khornate require bucket loads of blood) and cultists, but it just says Berserkers from memory in the Codex. Which means all these World Eaters are Master Chief.

Randallflagg
30-04-2008, 06:01
It seems like most fluff instances of lords being elevated to the status of Daemon Prince (such as the Warsmith in Storm of Iron and that one small bit of fluff in the old chaos 'dex) occur after a long line of amazing feats that go on to further the glory of chaos.

The thing is I don't think Kharn is doing it for the glory of chaos, maybe to collect skulls for Khorne yeah, but even then, he's not exactly changing the universe.

That, and I agree with everyone who says that Kharn probably doesn't want to be a daemon prince.

VanHel
30-04-2008, 06:02
Think about it, Khârn is much more valuable as a very insane killy mortal then he is as a daemon prince.

BrainFireBob
30-04-2008, 06:06
I don't think Khârn would be elevated. Khorne doesn't need to elevate him. Khârn is loyal and dedicated enough as is, sufficiently powerful not to need grading up, and doesn't require nearby warp activity.

If there is something Khârn can't axe, there's probably enough warp perturbation going on Khorne can send in a bloodthirster.

Nazguire
30-04-2008, 06:07
I don't think Khârn would be elevated. Khorne doesn't need to elevate him. Khârn is loyal and dedicated enough as is, sufficiently powerful not to need grading up, and doesn't require nearby warp activity.

If there is something Khârn can't axe, there's probably enough warp perturbation going on Khorne can send in a bloodthirster.

Allowing for the fact that Khorne (whatever Khorne may be) cares one iota what one mortal out of trillions is doing at any one time...:)

different13
30-04-2008, 06:29
Besides, Angron was all these things and more. Let's face it, Kharn has done more than enough to have been elevated to daemon prince, it's just that GW need a 'human' special character for chaos (a marine, not a daemon) - the same applies to Typhus (the corruption of an entire legion of space marines? Sounds noteworthy to me!)

Nazguire
30-04-2008, 07:52
I think that Kharn, Typhus and Lucius pretty much are daemons now, or close enough to it that growing taller and sprouting wings wouldn't make much difference, (probably hinder them more then anything)

Typhus has an entire hive of flies and bees and wasps and things in his back for crying out loud. He's animated by a magical plague that only he can withstand because he's the original host of it. He has frickin' bone vents that leak poisonous gas and flies into the air, he has a horn on one head, his body IS his Terminator armour. How is that not being a daemon?

Kharn is pretty much (as suggested by the background) impervious to death, fuelled by daemonic energies and bloodlust, can survive wounds that would kill any other Marine (Chaos or otherwise) ten times over, and is immortal. Pretty daemon like to me...

Lucius has hooves, a two foot long tongue, a daemon possessed whip that is connected to his wrist, a daemon sword that was the personal home of a Keeper of Secrets once upon a time, his blood is pretty much replaced by combat drugs, elixirs, other Slaaneshi goodness and toxins, moves faster then any man alive, can't be killed permenantly (he just possesses your body, grows out of it and voila!) and has a daemon tuba of death growing out of his back....Daemon much?

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-04-2008, 11:12
Nazguire, apparently with the new Dex all Daemon Princes are twenty feet tall. :p

DapperAnarchist
30-04-2008, 11:25
Khârn won't become a Daemon - because he'd just end up chopping all the other Daemons to pieces, and then try to take Khorne on one on one. I'm being quite serious here, he's crazy enough to try it. And Lucius is definitely a Daemon Prince of some sort...

On the topic of Daemonhood being handed out willy-nilly - read Realms of Chaos. In that, to gain Daemonhood, the sample character has about 20 followers and kills may 200 people. Thats it. Seriously, thats bad. Though the rest of it does kick ass....

pookie
30-04-2008, 12:35
Nazguire, apparently with the new Dex all Daemon Princes are twenty feet tall. :p

thats true :) , but id easily be able to belive that Kharn was Daemonic, just maybe not a Daemon Prince as such.

Nazguire
30-04-2008, 14:55
thats true :) , but id easily be able to belive that Kharn was Daemonic, just maybe not a Daemon Prince as such.

Why not? His abilities in the background are certainly formidable enough to take on a Daemon Prince without much hassle, as well as Typhus and Lucius. Just because they aren't ten feet tall winged beasts with horned dog heads doesn't mean they aren't daemon princes...

pookie
30-04-2008, 15:13
Why not? His abilities in the background are certainly formidable enough to take on a Daemon Prince without much hassle, as well as Typhus and Lucius. Just because they aren't ten feet tall winged beasts with horned dog heads doesn't mean they aren't daemon princes...

i suppose, but if you look at what info we have on Daemon Princes and what they are suppose to be, Immense beings that tower over there followers ( or some such thing in the newest CSM Dex cant quote it as dont have the Dex to hand ), Kharn/Typhus/Lucis cant claim that unless their followers are Nurlgings/Hrud or people that Kharn has knee capped :D.

im not saying they are not Daemon Princes per sa, but maybe something not quite Daemon Prince, but something more than Lord level, certainly immortal beings that are gifted by there relevant God.

Although i did like your prev description of Lucis, if he isnt Daemonic ( ie a Daemon) then i dont know what is! ( ability to possess then re mould your killers body into your own image! very Dameon like imo)

HK-47
30-04-2008, 17:29
Why not? His abilities in the background are certainly formidable enough to take on a Daemon Prince without much hassle, as well as Typhus and Lucius. Just because they aren't ten feet tall winged beasts with horned dog heads doesn't mean they aren't daemon princes...

I think that Nazguire has a point; just because Kharn isn't your stereotypical daemon prince doesn't mean that he is not daemonic in nature. Though if you want to be technical about it then I say he is somewhere between a space marine and a daemon prince.

Richter Kless
30-04-2008, 18:59
Khârn ain't a Daemon, because he doesn't need sacrifices or warp energy to appear in the real world. But he is so pumped full with Daemonic powers and energy, that his skills and abilities have surpassed those of even the most powerfull Space Marine.

What I have been wondering however: could Khârn be retarded?
During the siege of Terra, there was quite some time between his death and his revival. and I was thinking that this could have caused some severe damage to his braincells due to lack of oxygen and nutriënts, resulting in him becoming the single minded butcher he now is.

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-04-2008, 20:10
You know, back in the old days (I'm talking way back here, like 8 months), Daemon Princes didn't have to be monstrous creatures. *grumble grumble* Mow ware bib I but my benpuref? :angel:

Kharn is definitely mentally something, old chap Kless. Not sure if retarded is the right word... he's got a one-track mind though, doesn't he?

HK-47
01-05-2008, 01:15
Can't Kharn's obvious mental problems come for the combat implants that Angron had his tech-marines put into him. Also this is a bit off-topic but does anyone know how the implants work.

CULCHAIN
01-05-2008, 01:52
the reason kharn is single minded like all zerks is according to the fluff they are all labotimized according to the customs of angrons home world where angron was a gladiator taking skulls long before he was a primarch.

he also led a planet wide rebellion before the emperor took him

p.s I think kharn is a daemon because he cannot die

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 05:24
The implants that were put on the World Eaters (along with a small bit of lobotomy) brains are the reason Kharn is single minded, not because he had half his brain removed. They amp up the aggression of a Space Marine (who is already trained to be furiously furious, like Furious George) to silly extremes, and from the looks of it, extended use of these implants (through constant battle) looks to turn the Marines insane.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-05-2008, 08:32
the reason kharn is single minded like all zerks is according to the fluff they are all labotimized according to the customs of angrons home world where angron was a gladiator taking skulls long before he was a primarch.

he also led a planet wide rebellion before the emperor took him

And the Emperor just left that rebellion to die. Fostering hatred in Angron's heart and likely a huge factor in his later betrayal.

pookie
01-05-2008, 08:43
The implants that were put on the World Eaters (along with a small bit of lobotomy) brains are the reason Kharn is single minded, not because he had half his brain removed. They amp up the aggression of a Space Marine (who is already trained to be furiously furious, like Furious George) to silly extremes, and from the looks of it, extended use of these implants (through constant battle) looks to turn the Marines insane.

Isnt there some way to turn it the implants on/off? i know the Lobotomisation was to remove the fear part of the Brain, because even SM suffer from Fear, its just there training kicks in, but its still there.

if there is a 'switch' maybe its just stuck 'on' and as you say, constant use has turned him insane.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 09:27
Isnt there some way to turn it the implants on/off? i know the Lobotomisation was to remove the fear part of the Brain, because even SM suffer from Fear, its just there training kicks in, but its still there.

if there is a 'switch' maybe its just stuck 'on' and as you say, constant use has turned him insane.

I doubt that there is an off switch....as cool as that'd be, each power level has a different level of aggression...

"1- Chibi Love Bunnies

10- Genocide"

pookie
01-05-2008, 10:25
I doubt that there is an off switch....as cool as that'd be, each power level has a different level of aggression...

"1- Chibi Love Bunnies

10- Genocide"

bit like ABC Warrior!

maybe a switch isnt the right term, but there must be Zerks who have fairly Lucid moments, other wise they would probably have hacked otehr apart whilst moving between war zones.

The_Outsider
01-05-2008, 12:20
I imagine its related to adrenaline levels.

When its not pumping (something which their implants may increase duration of/release more) they are calm and as peace loving as any CSM (albeit with a short temper).

But when combat comes or you get a berzerker angry prepare to run - its only then do they turn into fearless killing machines.

Lexington
01-05-2008, 12:27
I think that Kharn, Typhus and Lucius pretty much are daemons now, or close enough to it[...]
Nope. They can die.

Daemonhood is a specific ascension via one of the Chaos Gods. The follower in question becomes an immortal and immensely powerful Cthonic horror-beast, with abilities and powers that transcend the mutations and gifts handed out to your rank-and-file warrior, and, importantly, they cannot die. They are the Chosen Elite of the Gods themselves, infused with part of their power.

(this, by the way, is why I've always found the idea of Undivided Daemon Princes to be mind-crushingly stupid. Who elevates them? Is there a committee? Do they have monthly meetings? What constitutes a Daemonic Quorum? Wouldn't Tzeentch's side always win out in the end anyway, due to his Daemons of Endless Legal Manipulation?)

Kharn's not immortal, he just hasn't died again. Khorne may have had a hand in popping his soul back in its mortal coil after Kharn bit it at the Gates of Terra, but there's no guarantee that he'll do it again if Kharn get himself et by a hungry Carnifex. Typhus may be long-lived, and have that impressive growth on his shoulder ("it's noht a tumah!"), but if he gets knocked around sufficiently by on the the Imperium's famed invisible Power Fist wielders, he won't just wake up in the Warp the next morning with a hangover. He's gone. Heck, even Lucius, with his effective immortality-via-possession, can die if some inattentive Princeps accidentally mashes him to jelly under the foot of his Warhound. These guys are just famous and dedicated followers, not Daemon Princes.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 15:57
I imagine its related to adrenaline levels.

When its not pumping (something which their implants may increase duration of/release more) they are calm and as peace loving as any CSM (albeit with a short temper).

But when combat comes or you get a berzerker angry prepare to run - its only then do they turn into fearless killing machines.

I see them in 'peace time' more in a strange rocking back and forth stupor, their minds constantly thinking about killing and blood and so they are quiet and just sorta ...sit there...hands on their knees, looking straight at the wall as they struggle to keep themselves contained..

Sorta like a crackhead at home with no crack. In a dumb stupor and all he can think about is drugs and where to get the drugs and what he's going to do with the drugs and whhy he's doing it and how he likes the drugs and how the drugs like him and why the drugs like him...

Their thoughts (Berserkers) are so active and focussed that until the time comes to actually do anything, they are just sitting there zoned out.

pookie
01-05-2008, 16:04
I see them in 'peace time' more in a strange rocking back and forth stupor, their minds constantly thinking about killing and blood and so they are quiet and just sorta ...sit there...hands on their knees, looking straight at the wall as they struggle to keep themselves contained..

Sorta like a crackhead at home with no crack. In a dumb stupor and all he can think about is drugs and where to get the drugs and what he's going to do with the drugs and whhy he's doing it and how he likes the drugs and how the drugs like him and why the drugs like him...

Their thoughts (Berserkers) are so active and focussed that until the time comes to actually do anything, they are just sitting there zoned out.

hmm its a good thought, although i know when they are moving between battlefields ( as per a issue of Inferno) they tend to take over a section of ship and turn it into a arena that the rest of the ships compliment stay clear of.

HK-47
01-05-2008, 16:05
The implants that were put on the World Eaters (along with a small bit of lobotomy) brains are the reason Kharn is single minded, not because he had half his brain removed. They amp up the aggression of a Space Marine (who is already trained to be furiously furious, like Furious George) to silly extremes, and from the looks of it, extended use of these implants (through constant battle) looks to turn the Marines insane.

Thanks for the info. Nazguire. I wonder if they will ever do an HH book with the members of the World Eaters as the main characters; kind of like Fulgrim and legion. The fact that Angron was forced to go with the Emperor, makes pretty good fluff.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 16:17
Thanks for the info. Nazguire. I wonder if they will ever do an HH book with the members of the World Eaters as the main characters; kind of like Fulgrim and legion. The fact that Angron was forced to go with the Emperor, makes pretty good fluff.

As much as I'd love to see it happen, I don't also. Because they'd get one of the BL writers (face it, they are all mediocre at best) to do it, and the emotional depth and complexity to the World Eaters that could be built up and explored would be lost under the ''KILL! MAIM! BURN!" of the book.

Instead of making Angron a tragically woeful figure who only did what he grew up with, struggled to accept or understand any ideas different to his own and lost his most trusted comrades whom he went through five years of hell with to a low act of base treachery (that was what it was...)Angron would be merely a character that has a chainsaw that missed the auditions for Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

CULCHAIN
01-05-2008, 16:28
a labotomy is not half your brain just a little of the top

BrainFireBob
01-05-2008, 18:21
A lobotomy is the removal of brain tissue to cause behavioral changes.

Lobotomizing the cerebral cortex makes you less sentient, that's not the part World Eaters get- they're just as intelligent and capable of reason as anyone else. Their aggression inhibitors are removed- which are in the pre-frontal cortex, I think.

Richter Kless
01-05-2008, 19:08
Aren't lobotomies prohibited nowadays?

Because, you know, scrambling someones brain to improve behaviour, propably wasn't one of humanities brightest ideas.

BrainFireBob
01-05-2008, 19:10
Where you get off critiquing the Kennedys?

It was popular in early, quack-like medical practice with the disturbed and mentally handicapped. With tragic results.

Magister
01-05-2008, 20:36
With tragic results.

It actuallly worked and relieved the symptoms in some cases i think you'll find.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-05-2008, 20:44
I see them in 'peace time' more in a strange rocking back and forth stupor, their minds constantly thinking about killing and blood and so they are quiet and just sorta ...sit there...hands on their knees, looking straight at the wall as they struggle to keep themselves contained..

Sorta like a crackhead at home with no crack. In a dumb stupor and all he can think about is drugs and where to get the drugs and what he's going to do with the drugs and whhy he's doing it and how he likes the drugs and how the drugs like him and why the drugs like him...

Their thoughts (Berserkers) are so active and focussed that until the time comes to actually do anything, they are just sitting there zoned out.

Maybe. I think, personally, that Berzerkers have to be a little more rational and functional in and out of battle, despite Kharn's... extreme-ness. Under Kharn's entry in the Codex we get a glimpse of a few Berzerkers who are obviously capable of rational thought. I would imagine Kharn would have to be chained up, if not put in stasis or something.


As much as I'd love to see it happen, I don't also. Because they'd get one of the BL writers (face it, they are all mediocre at best) to do it, and the emotional depth and complexity to the World Eaters that could be built up and explored would be lost under the ''KILL! MAIM! BURN!" of the book.

Instead of making Angron a tragically woeful figure who only did what he grew up with, struggled to accept or understand any ideas different to his own and lost his most trusted comrades whom he went through five years of hell with to a low act of base treachery (that was what it was...)Angron would be merely a character that has a chainsaw that missed the auditions for Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

True; I've been drawn to the seeming cruelty of the Emperor's treatment of Angron (Night Haunter too). Especially since the Emperor couldn't spare the time to teleport down and wtfcurbstomp his adversaries.

Archangel_Ruined
01-05-2008, 22:04
Lobotomies are still used, and there aren't really anger inhibition centres of the brain. There's the limbic system, which deals with emotions and there are rational centres there to overide impulses. That said, I really don't think there are too many GW fluff writes with a background in neuro anatomy so I wouldn't search for the logic or truth in said fluff when it comes to medicine. As an aside, when I said Kharn had racked up more skulls than Angron ever would I meant personally, Angron has had untold billions killed in his name.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 03:05
Maybe. I think, personally, that Berzerkers have to be a little more rational and functional in and out of battle, despite Kharn's... extreme-ness. Under Kharn's entry in the Codex we get a glimpse of a few Berzerkers who are obviously capable of rational thought. I would imagine Kharn would have to be chained up, if not put in stasis or something.




With Kharn definately. Yeah I'm aware of the story you're talking about, how those Berserkers are trapped by artillery fire and aren't just running out into the bullets and things.

I suppose it'd also depend on the Berserker. Those that are really far gone, like Chosen of Khorne or the Devourers of Angron, would I believe be in a similar stupor that I mentioned before, while 'regular' Berserkers could be there or anywhere in between.

Interesting thought, the more you progress as a Berserker, the less you have to do with planning a battle and the more you have to actually fighting it.

pookie
02-05-2008, 08:52
Lobotomies are still used, and there aren't really anger inhibition centres of the brain. There's the limbic system, which deals with emotions and there are rational centres there to overide impulses. That said, I really don't think there are too many GW fluff writes with a background in neuro anatomy so I wouldn't search for the logic or truth in said fluff when it comes to medicine. As an aside, when I said Kharn had racked up more skulls than Angron ever would I meant personally, Angron has had untold billions killed in his name.

All skulls taken are for Khorne, not Angron. Although they would be taken in his name like you say but they shouldnt count, only those taken by Kharn/Angron in person.

Personally i see it possible that Kharn has wracked up a similar amount of kills, after all he doesnt sit brooding on a daemon world, or have to regenerate after banishment like Angron has.

DantesInferno
02-05-2008, 10:58
With Kharn definately. Yeah I'm aware of the story you're talking about, how those Berserkers are trapped by artillery fire and aren't just running out into the bullets and things.

Indeed. In that particular story, one of the Berzerkers yells "Kharn!" in the same way you'd cry out "Incoming!" or "Grenade!"...

:skull::evilgrin::evilgrin::skull:

Richter Kless
02-05-2008, 15:59
That piece of background always reminds of Lancelot going nuts in the swampcastle.

Just pointless butchering and everyone just staring and trying to comprehend what the hell is happening.

HK-47
02-05-2008, 17:09
As much as I'd love to see it happen, I don't also. Because they'd get one of the BL writers (face it, they are all mediocre at best) to do it, and the emotional depth and complexity to the World Eaters that could be built up and explored would be lost under the ''KILL! MAIM! BURN!" of the book.

Instead of making Angron a tragically woeful figure who only did what he grew up with, struggled to accept or understand any ideas different to his own and lost his most trusted comrades whom he went through five years of hell with to a low act of base treachery (that was what it was...)Angron would be merely a character that has a chainsaw that missed the auditions for Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Yeah BL writers seem to have a problem with developing 3 dimensional characters, it's not that they can't just that it is the exception not the norm.

A shame really as a well written World Eater book would IMO would show that the followers of Khrone are not just insane maniacs for no reason, but honorable warriors how where driven to the breaking point, by the horrors of war and the naivety of the Emperor, and well snapped.

As for what Kharn does outside of battle well IMO he is most likely keep in a form of stasis or imprisonment. Kharn, again IMO, has completely loss most of his sanity and is probably seen by Abaddon, and his lieutenants as nothing more then a weapon to be unleashed with care unless he takes your head to.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 18:33
Indeed. In that particular story, one of the Berzerkers yells "Kharn!" in the same way you'd cry out "Incoming!" or "Grenade!"...

:skull::evilgrin::evilgrin::skull:

Yeah I noticed that too. I chuckled when I read it for the first time. I always imagined it to be similar to the 'Incoming' type warning combined with a sense of 'omg it's Kharn, isn't he magnificent' in his exclamation.

Because as much as everyone fears him and whatever, he is the embodiment of Khorne on Earth, so to speak and so all the Berserkers it stands to reason would both fear and admire him in equal measure.

Archangel_Ruined
02-05-2008, 20:22
Would you try to put Kharn in stasis, or chain him up? It leads me to wonder how, exactly, they put eversor assassins in stasis between missions... Methinks Khorne just moves Kharn from one planet to another when he runs out of things to kill, I doubt any warband would want to transport him from world to world. Spending any serious ammount of time, in a sealed metal box, where nobody can hear you scream, with him...

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-05-2008, 20:58
Indeed. In that particular story, one of the Berzerkers yells "Kharn!" in the same way you'd cry out "Incoming!" or "Grenade!"...

:skull::evilgrin::evilgrin::skull:

I always likened that "Kharn!" to "Oh SHIl-!!!!"


Would you try to put Kharn in stasis, or chain him up? It leads me to wonder how, exactly, they put eversor assassins in stasis between missions... Methinks Khorne just moves Kharn from one planet to another when he runs out of things to kill, I doubt any warband would want to transport him from world to world. Spending any serious ammount of time, in a sealed metal box, where nobody can hear you scream, with him...

That's an interesting question. Maybe they have to trap him after every battle with a chain of cultists, like a trail of candy, and he just butchers them till he runs into a box- then SLAM! Door shuts, then is sealed, then they hope to Khorne that he doesn't hack through it by the time they get to their next planet.

Damian Starsong
03-05-2008, 01:19
heh, i can see it now...

COMING, DECEMBER, 2009, THE NEWEST BL PUBLICATION IN THE HORUS HERESY SERIES, BASED ON THE ANTIC OF EVERYONES FAVORITE SPAZE MARINEZ, THOSE DARNED LITTLE TRIXTERS, THE WORLD EATERS! TITLE: "DAD BETRAYED ME, SO I GO ALL KILLY ON YOUZE!!!" SUB-TITLE: "BURN, MAIM, KILL!"

chapter one: BURRRRRRRNNNNNNNN!
chapter two: (some dialogue, a few new plot twists, some retconning, but we dont care about all THIS drivel.)
chapter 3: MAAAAIIIIIIMMMMMMM!!!!!!!
c. 4: (more dia.....BORRRRIIIINNNNNG!!!! wheres the KIL?????)
c. 5: (fine...) KIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!


(ect, ect, ad nauseum.....)

(and BTW, its just satire, so please dont unchain kharn on me, i actually LIKE the world eaters, would LOVE an HH book for them, even if it is just all kill kill kill. Kharn was actually the first character model i ever bought.)

DapperAnarchist
03-05-2008, 01:28
That's an interesting question. Maybe they have to trap him after every battle with a chain of cultists, like a trail of candy, and he just butchers them till he runs into a box- then SLAM! Door shuts, then is sealed, then they hope to Khorne that he doesn't hack through it by the time they get to their next planet.

I like that... Though on the topic of Eversors - They aren't expected to survive. They are a pure terror weapon - a bomb that can get anywhere.

BrainFireBob
03-05-2008, 01:34
That's an interesting question. Maybe they have to trap him after every battle with a chain of cultists, like a trail of candy, and he just butchers them till he runs into a box- then SLAM! Door shuts, then is sealed, then they hope to Khorne that he doesn't hack through it by the time they get to their next planet.


James Woods in Family Guy!

"Ooh a skull for Khorne, ooh a skull for Khorne, ooh a skull for Khorne . . ."

EDIT: Eversors are, in fact, recovered. They're either floating around the Imperium or in a storage room somewhere, their missions are downloaded straight into their minds before they're awoken, then their pods land and hit the crazy switch. Think the old Van Damme movie "Universal Soldier." They return to their pods when they complete their mission.

Meaning, really, by implication that there may be some objectively ancient Eversors still floating around. And potentially, quite a few Eversors throughout the Imperium, depending on their mission survival vs. recruitment rates.

The Guy
03-05-2008, 13:50
That's an interesting question. Maybe they have to trap him after every battle with a chain of cultists, like a trail of candy, and he just butchers them till he runs into a box- then SLAM! Door shuts, then is sealed, then they hope to Khorne that he doesn't hack through it by the time they get to their next planet.

Kinda like alien 3? :p [running on walls included]

But surely even Kharn [the boy voted least likely to count to 10 in pre school] would get wise to this eventually?
Also he has a plasma pistol so he'll probably just blast through.

Maybe they do a little sign saying "Heads for sale!" and point it in the direction of a stasis chamber?

pookie
03-05-2008, 14:06
I always likened that "Kharn!" to "Oh SHIl-!!!!"



That's an interesting question. Maybe they have to trap him after every battle with a chain of cultists, like a trail of candy, and he just butchers them till he runs into a box- then SLAM! Door shuts, then is sealed, then they hope to Khorne that he doesn't hack through it by the time they get to their next planet.

id like to think his kill counter has something do with this, eac battle he has a set amount to kill ( that increase's per battle ) and only once it reaches zero does a 'calm' take him and he becomes some what more passive and more likly to board a ship leave the battlefield.

although at the same time if his kill counter doesnt yet say zero, well the crew and fellow zerks/cultists etc are in for a world of trouble.

Industrial Propaganda
03-05-2008, 14:32
Their is a short story released by Black Library and written by Bill King (also published in a old WD).

"The Wrath Of Khârn" where he fight against a Slaanesh cult and their daemon prince with his Berzerker buddies. Pretty cool story. We see that Khârn isn't just an idiot but a true fanatic follower of Khorne.

Archangel_Ruined
03-05-2008, 17:42
I don't think he's an idiot, just a very devoted follower of khorne. He, like his master, doesn't really care who's bleeding as long as somebody is, and Kharn is the surgical equivalent of a chainsaw.

DapperAnarchist
04-05-2008, 16:12
On the day that all else is dead and gone, Khârn will probably chop Khornes head off, then decapitate himself. Or he'll try anyway. That, or he'll spend centuries trying to recreate life, guiding it into civilisation and warfare, then start again.

whitehat51
04-05-2008, 19:23
I seriously doubt Kharn would be involved in creating life. In fact, just the opposite. Your first idea was probably better.

As for the topic of how there could be 50,000 Berzerkers, let me just say, not all of the Berzerkers are World Eaters. There could be thousands upon thousands of renegade Space Marines who call themselves Berzerkers. It's very likely that they would flock to Angron's banner in the chance to prove themselves to the more "veteran" Berzerkers.

On Kharn becoming a Daemon Prince, in official fluff, he is stated as the most powerful World Eater next to Angron. Angron is a Daemon Prince. Does this mean, then, that no other World Eaters have achieved this level? Does it mean that, although he isn't a Daemon Prince, he's still more powerful than one? If so, why doesn't Khorne elevate him as such? These are all questions that cannot be answered, because there is no fluff (that I know of, at least), that supports it. Kharn is definitely second-most powerful World Eater, and whether you take that to mean that he is a Daemon, Khorne has no World Eaters Daemon Princes, or that he's simply THAT good, is up to you.

On a side note: I'm very interested in the stats for Doombreed. Just today I was thinking about him and Kharn both being in my army, and if a Daemon Prince could properly represent him, I'd like to know.

GodofWarTx
04-05-2008, 21:57
Nope. They can die.

Daemonhood is a specific ascension via one of the Chaos Gods. The follower in question becomes an immortal and immensely powerful Cthonic horror-beast, with abilities and powers that transcend the mutations and gifts handed out to your rank-and-file warrior, and, importantly, they cannot die. They are the Chosen Elite of the Gods themselves, infused with part of their power.

(this, by the way, is why I've always found the idea of Undivided Daemon Princes to be mind-crushingly stupid. Who elevates them? Is there a committee? Do they have monthly meetings? What constitutes a Daemonic Quorum? Wouldn't Tzeentch's side always win out in the end anyway, due to his Daemons of Endless Legal Manipulation?)

Kharn's not immortal, he just hasn't died again. Khorne may have had a hand in popping his soul back in its mortal coil after Kharn bit it at the Gates of Terra, but there's no guarantee that he'll do it again if Kharn get himself et by a hungry Carnifex. Typhus may be long-lived, and have that impressive growth on his shoulder ("it's noht a tumah!"), but if he gets knocked around sufficiently by on the the Imperium's famed invisible Power Fist wielders, he won't just wake up in the Warp the next morning with a hangover. He's gone. Heck, even Lucius, with his effective immortality-via-possession, can die if some inattentive Princeps accidentally mashes him to jelly under the foot of his Warhound. These guys are just famous and dedicated followers, not Daemon Princes.


The idea with undivided daemons is that while there may be four "prime powers" of chaos, they are just aspects of an even greater whole.Just like how each daemon prince is "individual" yet an aspect of their god, the four gods of chaos are just aspects of "chaos ascendant". Also, of course, there are countless other gods of chaos, just lesser ones, or in some cases, retconned ones (malal) that could easly have their own champions.

It would be interesting to see if Khorne ran into a true Emperor's Champion again, considering Sigismund wiped the floor with Kharn.

Archangel_Ruined
04-05-2008, 22:15
It'd be a short fight, rules wise. Kharn hits on 2's wounds on 2's or 3's with 6 or 7 attacks, Champ gets a 4+ save. Champ hits on 3's, wounds on 2's with Kharn's 5+ save. Fluff wise, methinks it'd be a much better fight, one of them is going to die but it'd be a closer run thing.

HK-47
05-05-2008, 00:37
heh, i can see it now...

COMING, DECEMBER, 2009, THE NEWEST BL PUBLICATION IN THE HORUS HERESY SERIES, BASED ON THE ANTIC OF EVERYONES FAVORITE SPAZE MARINEZ, THOSE DARNED LITTLE TRIXTERS, THE WORLD EATERS! TITLE: "DAD BETRAYED ME, SO I GO ALL KILLY ON YOUZE!!!" SUB-TITLE: "BURN, MAIM, KILL!"

chapter one: BURRRRRRRNNNNNNNN!
chapter two: (some dialogue, a few new plot twists, some retconning, but we dont care about all THIS drivel.)
chapter 3: MAAAAIIIIIIMMMMMMM!!!!!!!
c. 4: (more dia.....BORRRRIIIINNNNNG!!!! wheres the KIL?????)
c. 5: (fine...) KIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!


(ect, ect, ad nauseum.....)

(and BTW, its just satire, so please dont unchain kharn on me, i actually LIKE the world eaters, would LOVE an HH book for them, even if it is just all kill kill kill. Kharn was actually the first character model i ever bought.)

When I read this I lol so much, It nice to see someone who see's the humor in GW depiction of Khorne and his followers.

Kharn probably doesn't want to be a daemon prince because of all the hassle a warp entity as to go through to establish a link with the material, note that this is only a Fluff concerns table top wise daemon princes are a dime a dozen and can go pretty much anywhere, kind of what happen to Angron during the first war of Armageddon.

DantesInferno
05-05-2008, 03:21
On Kharn becoming a Daemon Prince, in official fluff, he is stated as the most powerful World Eater next to Angron. Angron is a Daemon Prince. Does this mean, then, that no other World Eaters have achieved this level? Does it mean that, although he isn't a Daemon Prince, he's still more powerful than one? If so, why doesn't Khorne elevate him as such? These are all questions that cannot be answered, because there is no fluff (that I know of, at least), that supports it. Kharn is definitely second-most powerful World Eater, and whether you take that to mean that he is a Daemon, Khorne has no World Eaters Daemon Princes, or that he's simply THAT good, is up to you.

Where are you getting this "second most powerful World Eater" statement from? I'm not saying that it's incorrect, but the context would be somewhat important. "Powerful" in what terms? Ability in gladatorial combat isn't the only measure of power.

And IIRC (don't have my sources with me), there's a World Eater Daemon Prince named Kossolax the Foresworn (formerly Sergeant Solax in the World Eaters' assault companies).


On a side note: I'm very interested in the stats for Doombreed. Just today I was thinking about him and Kharn both being in my army, and if a Daemon Prince could properly represent him, I'd like to know.

In 2nd ed rules, he was above and beyond a Bloodthirster (which had quite a few 10s in its statistics...).

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
05-05-2008, 12:26
I have the answers you seek.

Khârn is chuck norris on a monday, simple

KILL!MAIM!BURN!KILL!MAIM!BURN!

Lexington
05-05-2008, 13:45
Maybe. I think, personally, that Berzerkers have to be a little more rational and functional in and out of battle, despite Kharn's... extreme-ness. Under Kharn's entry in the Codex we get a glimpse of a few Berzerkers who are obviously capable of rational thought. I would imagine Kharn would have to be chained up, if not put in stasis or something.
I think that even Kharn can make rational distinctions about when to kill and when not to kill, at least outside of combat. The Bill King story that others have referenced definitely characterizes him thusly (oh, what I'd pay to have King back in the driver's seat of the 40K background; there was a guy who could write), and he'd just be useless otherwise.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-05-2008, 23:24
That would make sense... I haven't read that other story though (along with a few other pieces that Bill King wrote, which is apparently quite a loss for me). Going off the current fluff it would seem GW wants Kharn to be a maniac.

Koryphaus
06-05-2008, 00:45
And IIRC (don't have my sources with me), there's a World Eater Daemon Prince named Kossolax the Foresworn (formerly Sergeant Solax in the World Eaters' assault companies).

Is Kossolax a DP? I'd always thought of him as being a mortal, like Abbaddon's Chosen.

Nazguire
06-05-2008, 00:59
Is Kossolax a DP? I'd always thought of him as being a mortal, like Abbaddon's Chosen.

I always thought of him as a mortal too. I don't think it's stated anywhere that Kossolax is a daemon prince.

DantesInferno
06-05-2008, 01:18
Is Kossolax a DP? I'd always thought of him as being a mortal, like Abbaddon's Chosen.


I always thought of him as a mortal too. I don't think it's stated anywhere that Kossolax is a daemon prince.

Ah. The source wasn't as conclusive as I'd hoped:


One particular Rhino, belonging to the World Eaters Legion, was reportedly present at the Siege of the Emperor's Palace, and has been identified on numerous occasions over the millennia since. The vehicle, identified as 'Barbarus' by its nameplate, is covered in iron spikes, each adorned with the severed head of an Imperial warrior. The records of the Ordo Malleus state that Barbarus belonged to the squad of Sergeant Solax of the World Eaters 3rd Assault Company before the Heresy, and this individual is thought to be the beast now known as Kossolax the Foresworn. If this is indeed the case, Sergeant Solax has risen to the command of an entire company of Berzerkers, and Barbarus has served with him and his warband the entire time.

Depends how you take "the beast", really.

Lothlanathorian
06-05-2008, 01:43
Don't forget that, pre-Heresy, Kharn was Angrons best diplomat. He spoke in place of his Primarch because he was able to stay level headed when Angron could not.

Nazguire
06-05-2008, 01:53
Don't forget that, pre-Heresy, Kharn was Angrons best diplomat. He spoke in place of his Primarch because he was able to stay level headed when Angron could not.

Well I'd say all diplomatic talents that he may have had pre-Heresy are pretty much gone now.:p

Kraal_Lord_Of_Blood
06-05-2008, 06:16
Don't be so sure :p
Maybe he sees his actions as diplomatic :D