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Fredmans
29-04-2008, 08:01
I was just thinking of how buildings could be actually useful to O&G rather than plain obstacles, and was thinking of how the new building rules interacted with WAAGH and animosity.

First of all, would a WAAAGH result mean that a unit leaves the building toward the nearest enemy unit and is then allowed to declare a charge?

Second of all, if the WAAAGH free movement is enough to contact an enemy unit, does it count as a charge, even though normal movement rules forbid you to charge out of buildings, or should I move up to 1" away?

Third of all, I suppose ranks are not to be counted during the Warboss's WAAGH, but the other modifiers should apply (big boss/general), or am I wrong?

/Fredmans

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 08:28
1. Yes

2.The strong indication is that units may never charge out of buildings, even if normally compelled to do so. See the notes on frenzy in the Buildings section.

3. Why would you not count ranks? The rules for Waagh explicitly state that they should be added. None of those modifiers apply in any other situation, which seems to be what you are implying.

T10
29-04-2008, 08:29
1. The move would bring you the unit out of the building before charges are declared. IT will therefore be allowed to declare a charge as it is no longer in a building.

2. If the move brings the unit into contact with the enemy then then it counts as a charge. This means the Waaagh! result does indeed allow the unit to charge even if exiting the building.

3. I assume you are still refering to units within buildings. Units adopt a skirmishing formation within buildings. Skirmishers have no ranks. Thus no bonus for ranks are added when the general calls the Waaagh!

-T10

Fredmans
29-04-2008, 10:28
1. The move would bring you the unit out of the building before charges are declared. IT will therefore be allowed to declare a charge as it is no longer in a building.

2. If the move brings the unit into contact with the enemy then then it counts as a charge. This means the Waaagh! result does indeed allow the unit to charge even if exiting the building.

3. I assume you are still refering to units within buildings. Units adopt a skirmishing formation within buildings. Skirmishers have no ranks. Thus no bonus for ranks are added when the general calls the Waaagh!

-T10

This is exactly my view on how the rules would interact as well. Clearly, Waaagh! drastically alters the buildings' rule set. It could be quite fun to pull off on an unexpecting general too.

The big disagreement/table-top row could concern the second point. We have two distinctly separate ways of treating a Waaagh! charge out of a building. Either...

a) it is allowed since the Waaagh! rule says so and makes no exemptions (as proposed by T10).
b) it is not allowed since the buildings rules forbid charging out of buildings (as proposed by Atrahasis).

EDIT: Home from work, I have checked the rules (both O&G and BRB) and must admit it is still quite ambigous.

"An infantry unit inside a building may not declare charges, even if it would normally be forced to do so because of Frenzy or some other similar rule." BRB 98

"We'll show'em [...] The unit immediately moves D6" towards the nearest visible enemy by the shortest route. [...] If this move takes the unit into contact with an enemy, it is counted as a charge. [...] This extra move is an exception to the normal turn sequence[...]" O&G 16

In the defence of reading A, We'll show'em is not the same as declaring a charge, it is an out-of-turn-sequence-exception to the normal rules and a move that can result in a charge.

In the defence of reading B, it is evident that the intention of the rule is to prohibit charges from buildings due to compulsory moves.

RAW suggests A, since Waaagh is not a compulsory move (but a pre-movement phase-move), nor is it a declaration of a charge, but it still feels like exploiting a loop-hole to me.

Are there any movement-related spells that would cause the same thing to happen? The shadow lore calls for "normal moves". The O&G spells (Hand of Gork and Waaagh!, however, are treated the same way as We'll show'em.

/Fredmans

lparigi34
29-04-2008, 18:25
Great analysis!!!

And IMHO, ambigous it remains, as shown by two well documented opposite interpretations by T10 and Atrahasis.

Even harder to tell, as when the unit inside the building counts as Skirmishing and by charging during the Waaagh movement (if it reaches the enemy unit before declaring charges) will bring out the issue: should its ranks count for CR, as the unit was in Skirmish formation and had no time to revert to a R&F formation?

Braad
29-04-2008, 20:25
I would say, on the charge thingie, that if a unit does the WAAAGH and contact an enemy, they are not performing a charge (which they wouldn't be allowed to), but the result that comes from the move counts as such (getting into combat).