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oCoYoRoAoKo
29-04-2008, 10:52
Hi all,

ive recently had a couple of games with my daemon army vs VC and got soundly beaten in each one. So, onto the topic of this thread. How do i go about beating VC with the daemons? it seems that they dont do well in wars of attrition, and even winning combats is no guarantee that theyll win out (as VCs can just raise more troops), even with my usual flank charges.

my current army is in the following thread (full slaanesh btw) :

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137754

thanks,

Cy.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2008, 11:05
You pick off the character's and vampiric troops, then you go about removing what's left.
Basically the same way you fight them normally.

You've got 4 fiends, they're plenty big enough to flank charge the enemy and plenty fast enough to do so.
Simialrly the masque and the greater daemons are also stupidly fast and the greater daemon can negate ranks on it's own.

You basically just pick a unit to fight, and then you charge it and kill it with your list.
Your opponent wont get any say in what happens really, simply down to the massive speed of your list.

mav1971
29-04-2008, 13:43
I'd personally take more than 10 demonettes per unit.

the_raptor
29-04-2008, 14:20
How are you not destroying VC with all those Ld based Slannesh spells?

syrme
29-04-2008, 15:01
take a BSB and give them the banner that makes a selected lore cast at -2.

he will need to use two dice to raise troops now instead of one dice on a 3 or 4+

praesto
29-04-2008, 16:06
invocation of nehek is not a lore spell

Max zero
29-04-2008, 16:21
Also isn't that Banner Khorne only?

Andrew Luke
29-04-2008, 17:06
What tactics is he using to beat you? I don't think your list can be the problem, it is so damn fast and hitty you shouldn't have much to fear from his units. The only way I could think to beat you would be to wall you in with zombies to try and keep you from out-maneuvering me. The only other way would be to load up on knights and pray I get good charges...

Your Mum Rang
29-04-2008, 17:27
Anyone can have that banner...

soots
30-04-2008, 00:01
You're fielding an army that hits hard on the charge vs an army thats the best at taking charges.

Perhaps you should field more static combat res.

baphomael
30-04-2008, 01:06
In fantasy, units of 10 are generally bad for anything other than flanking. You'll need some beefier 'anvil' units for your smaller hammers. You've got a lot of seekers and fiends for flanking, so I suggest bigger units of core daemons to be able to survive the inevitable cobat resolution. Units of 10 daemonettes are going to suffer from combat resolution.

decker_cky
30-04-2008, 09:28
Your stupidity spell is a real gamewinner in games like this. Cast it as much as possible on skeletons outside the general's leadership range. Get it hitting on the flanks and on units with casters in them. You can really cause a lot of problems to VC with their horrible leadership against the slaanesh lore.

Your Mum Rang
30-04-2008, 10:47
That's if it works on ITP units.

skilett
30-04-2008, 11:41
I can't see why it wouldn't, ITP just makes you pass all fear, terror and panic tests, and ignore the autobreak effect of fear. BRB pg. 53.

Gralph!?!
30-04-2008, 14:08
from the looks of it the list you are using is a little on the weak side with static combat res. bumping up 2 units of daemonettes to 15 and dropping another will allow your units to at least stand a chance in a single fight. i would personally drop a single unit of seekers in order to take full commands on the daemonette units as they can out last things a little easier that way as you will have a static combat res of 3 instead of 1 and your amount of attacks should be able to sway combat in your favour.

the small problem i have noticed is that slaanesh on a who has not got anything that can take massive advantages of the leadership effecting things you have taken. so unless you have take out the general then your leadership abilities are for naught.

remember that flank charges are used so that you can make your opponent break and with undead they do not break just crumble and the fact they can be brought back makes it very difficult to beat the undead units by a mere flank charge. go for multiple charges to get rid of entire units instead of trying to keep them held up into a war attrician which as you know will lose.

Malorian
30-04-2008, 14:33
A flank charge is HUGE against undead. That's 4 CR on your side and thus 4 more models that will crumble.

Gralph!?!
30-04-2008, 15:22
tes but an editional 4 dead or so isnt't that great if you cannot destroy all of them then you get counter charged which then kicks the snot out of you troops.

larabic
30-04-2008, 18:19
invocation of nehek is not a lore spell

It's not? Does it actually say that? Is drain magic a high spell then?

mightygnoblar
30-04-2008, 18:30
its not part of the lore of the vampires and so its by raw not a lore spell, neither is drain magic

baphomael
30-04-2008, 18:46
A flank charge is HUGE against undead. That's 4 CR on your side and thus 4 more models that will crumble.

Precisely. Against Undead, Daemons arnt looking to break units and send them running, but rather bump their own CR and try hurting the enemy unit's CR.

With such small units of daemonettes, is goint to be hard for the unit to really survive after the first turn of combat. The daemonettes are going to be outnumbered, the undead will have ranks and command added to whatever wounds they've caused. How many wounds are expected coming from a rank of five daemonettes on the charge? Not enough to tip the ballance. Units of 10 daemonettes will end up crumbling. Its hard enough for units of 15 daemons. 10 will be walked over.

larabic
30-04-2008, 18:58
its not part of the lore of the vampires and so its by raw not a lore spell, neither is drain magic

Thats silly, I hope they amend that.

Max zero
01-05-2008, 03:47
Thats silly, I hope they amend that.

Why? Its a banner not a "lol ur magicz iz stuffed!!!!" uber weapon.

The banner will still effect VHD and Raise Dead.

Lord Aries
01-05-2008, 06:17
Kill their general. He isn't that hard to kill... VC lords are much weaker than they used to be... and its OK to suicide stuff to get the kill.

You need static combat res... it wins games. You don't have it, he does.

Kalist
01-05-2008, 09:02
Good luck going after the general. While you say it's worth it to suicide stuff in an attempt to kill the general (which is so true), imagine what the undead player is willing to do to keep the general alive (ie. reposition units to intercept either in movement or magic phase, issue challenges with unit champions, create units of sacrificial zombies on angles leading away from the general so your over-run will take you off to the side, etc).

Really, going after the general is not a bad tactic - just one that is much easier said than done.

Max zero
01-05-2008, 09:15
In addition the General is not exactly poor in HtH (especially a Lord). While they won't be a taking down a Bloodthirster any time soon they will give your standard unit of light cav more then a little trouble.

Note: This only applies to 'casty' generals. If your up against a 'fighty' general your best bet might be to use magic or a warmachine. Trying to take one of those out in close combat (unless you have some SERIOUS firepower) could end in disaster.

oCoYoRoAoKo
01-05-2008, 09:18
i have tried going for the general and theres a few things i'd like to point out. only once have i managed to actually get in combat with the guy (due to all of the points raised in the last post), and even then, in order to get them in one round of combat you will need to cause quite a few wounds (6 in my case - my opponent uses the 4+ ward/stupidity item). with a base toughness of 5, it means that in the daemon book, nothing short of a greater daemon will be able to kill them in one round (the KoS with only 6 attacks cant quite cut it). in my particular circumstance, the VC was in a unit of skellies, in the centre of his battle line (so reduced possibility of flank charges) with champion (who was challenging my keeper every turn keeping it safe). as the greater daemons cant join units, it will take, on average, 1 greater daemon (to take the lord), 1 other champion/character (to take the skellie champion) and probably another character to finish the lord off (unless the greater daemon is a bloodthirster). bear in mind that if you loose the combat (which is likeley considering the unit has static combat res of 5 (so you will probably need a flanking unit aswell) there is the possibility of loosing a 600+ point GD due to crumble (not to mention all of the other stuff that has gone into the unit - the extra heralds/champions/units to deal with the other stuff).

So as Kalist has alread said, its easier said thenn done.

Cy.