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jospoon
29-04-2008, 11:08
I have a Chaos Giant and 5 Chaos Knights. The Knight first charged a 5x4 Zombie unit on its front but unable to finish off the zombies.
Next turn, the Giant charged in to assist the Chaos Knights. At the end of the combat, there are only 1 zombie left (definitely not enough to lock both Giant and Chaos Knight unit via base to base)

So the Undead player chose to have that single zombie touching the Chaos Knight unit instead. There were no zombies in base to base contact with the Giant.

The question is what will happen to the Giant since there are no more 'Lapping' rules?

- Was he considered locked in combat?
- Or was he considered free from combat and able to move next turn (provided somehow the there are newly raised zombies for the Chaos Knight to kill)?
- Was he able to benefit from Overrun since all the zombies earlier in B2B contact with him was all wiped out?



K = Chaos Knight
G = Giant
Z = Zombies

BEFORE:
KKKKKG
ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ


AFTER:
KKKKKG
Z

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 11:16
Firstly, when you charged the two units should have split the frontage of the zombies evenly.

This would result in the configuration shown in the attached file.

If the giant charged in after the first round (and so clipped the corner of the unit) then if casualty removal resulted in it becoming disengaged then it would be free to move as normal.

Evil-Lite
29-04-2008, 11:19
Splitting the frontage was so last edition! :)

But the diagram does show how the single zombie left would be positioned. In other words, both units would still be locked in combat with a single zombie.

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 11:25
Splitting the frontage was so last edition! :)

Splitting frontage is still in 7th, but it appears I misremembered the conditions.

That said, it would then depend on where the champion was as to whether either of the units become disengaged :)

Evil-Lite
29-04-2008, 12:00
Splitting frontage is still in 7th, but it appears I misremembered the conditions.

That said, it would then depend on where the champion was as to whether either of the units become disengaged :)

Zombies are not allowed champion upgrades.

Atrahasis
29-04-2008, 12:15
Then the centre model in the front rank would be the last remaining, disengaging the giant.

jospoon
29-04-2008, 12:26
Then the centre model in the front rank would be the last remaining, disengaging the giant.

I agree with Atrahasis as casualties removal are required to be removed from both sides and thus the remaining zombie model would be engaged with the Chaos Knight and the Giant is free to move.

jospoon
29-04-2008, 12:30
Quick clarification on the problem statement on the first post.


Chaos Knight unit was engaged with the zombies in the first round of combat but unable to finish off the zombies. Then Giant charged in to assist and managed to kill all but one zombie.

The lone zombie should be only touching the Chaos Knight. Question is can the Giant overrun since he is also cosidered free from locked in combat.

Edit
29-04-2008, 13:20
shouldn't be able to overrun as no unit has been destroyed, have to destroy the unit, not just the ones touching you.

Evil-Lite
29-04-2008, 13:37
Both units would still be in combat with the lone zombie. If there was a 3rd unit to the front then 1 unit would not be engaged because there is no way to get 3 units into Base to base with a 20mm model (excluding 3 units made up of single models on a 20mm base).

Debating how many wounds where caused by which unit is irrelevant because after the combat is complete (and break tests / crumble results are over) you should redress the ranks to ensure all combatants are still in combat that are able.

Milney
29-04-2008, 13:55
I think the real question is why you'd send a valuable combat unit into an obvious tarpit, voluntarily! ;) :P

SuperBeast
29-04-2008, 22:36
Um... I may have missed something here, but the giant couldn't engage in that position?

5 knights are wider than 5 zombies.
If the knights had maximised contact on the charge, then there would be no way for the giant to legally charge in the front?

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2008, 23:38
Indeed superbeast has it correct.
The giant was incapable of getting into combat in the first place.

Yehoshua
29-04-2008, 23:52
Why must that be true? You could still leave a corner free for the giant to charge, yet have maximized models in combat. Five zombies are 100mm wide, 4 knights are 100mm wide, fifth knight on one end, giant on the other.

Crispian25
30-04-2008, 01:59
I think people are forgetting the corner to corner rule. The setup should look like this at the end of the second round of combat:

KKKKKG
____Z

There is one remaining Zombie who either splits its frontage or is full on with the unit of knights and is corner to corner with the Giant, thus locking both units in combat. The giant has no overrun, because the combat still exists and the unit is not destroyed.

Nurgling Chieftain
30-04-2008, 22:33
The giant's charge may or may not be possible, depending on exactly how the knights were aligned. Let's assume it was possible, and the giant is touching corner to corner on one end.

At the end of the fight, the center zombie is the only one left standing. It can't be the corner zombie touching both units left, because when there's only one rank left casualties are removed equally from both ends of that rank.

This leaves the giant dropping out of HtH during the redress the ranks step. Neither the zombie nor the giant have any way to move so as to get into B2B.

No overrun is possible since the zombie unit wasn't actually destroyed.

theunwantedbeing
30-04-2008, 22:43
If the giant was in combat, you remove zombies not touching the giant before removing those touching the giant.
You cant remove the ones on the other side to him

If the giant charged that turn he is entitled to an overrun if the enemy is destroyed, but the knights would not be as they didnt charge that turn.

Remember that you get a single wheel when charging.
So if the knights were flush against the zombies after maximising like so:

___ZZZZZ
___KKKKKKK(assume the knights are on a 20 mm base please, so the diagram is correct for maximisation)

The the giant has to be able to reach the flat edge(on the left) while moving straight so he can then use his single wheel(or pivot in this case) to align himself with the flat edge and charge into combat.
Otherwise he requires more than 1 wheel(or pivot) to reach combat and he would not be able to legally charge the enemy.

lparigi34
30-04-2008, 23:03
...If the giant charged that turn he is entitled to an overrun if the enemy is destroyed, but the knights would not be as they didnt charge that turn.

And this would also be a desirable reason to charge the giant against a "tarpit". Having the giant to overrun if the zombies are wiped out may cause the giant to fight twice in the same turn , to be the charger in the enemy turn, or to move into a more tactical position for the enemy turn.

Just be somewhat certain that you`ll really finish off the zombie unit. ;)

Atrahasis
30-04-2008, 23:12
If the giant was in combat, you remove zombies not touching the giant before removing those touching the giant.No, casualties are removed equally from both ends of the rear rank.

Milney
01-05-2008, 10:12
And this would also be a desirable reason to charge the giant against a "tarpit". Having the giant to overrun if the zombies are wiped out may cause the giant to fight twice in the same turn , to be the charger in the enemy turn, or to move into a more tactical position for the enemy turn.

Just be somewhat certain that you`ll really finish off the zombie unit. ;)

Erm, not really. Assuming that Tarpit was at the front of the army (the fact that two fast moving combat unit have hit it on its front indicates this). This means that even with an overrun (which he didnt get, as the question is about 1 zombie surviving) he would overrun to a unit behind them (maybe), but because that unit is unlikely to be in combat the combat wouldn't be fought that round.

Thus giving the VC player ample time to Vanhel's or Miasma of Deathly Vigor the unit in combat, striking first himself.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-05-2008, 23:15
If the giant was in combat, you remove zombies not touching the giant before removing those touching the giant.
No, casualties are removed equally from both ends of the rear rank.What Atrahasis just said.


Remember that you get a single wheel when charging.
So if the knights were flush against the zombies after maximising like so:

___ZZZZZ
___KKKKKKK(assume the knights are on a 20 mm base please, so the diagram is correct for maximisation)

The the giant has to be able to reach the flat edge(on the left) while moving straight so he can then use his single wheel(or pivot in this case) to align himself with the flat edge and charge into combat.
Otherwise he requires more than 1 wheel(or pivot) to reach combat and he would not be able to legally charge the enemy.I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. Since the initial condition was that the giant was able to charge the front, and that's not an impossibility, I'm inclined to simply go with it and not turn this into a thorough examination of all the various possibilities and impossibilities of charging.