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eleveninches
29-04-2008, 12:34
455: Count (lv3, +2PD, knows all spells, summon ghouls, 5 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
195: Vampire (+2PD, black periapt, helm of commandment)
88: 10 Ghouls (ghast)
80: 10 Ghouls
80: 10 Ghouls
40: 5 Wolves
40: 5 Wolves
60: 3 Fell bats
229: 6 Black Knights (standard, barding, banner of the barrows)
175: Varghulf
175: Varghulf
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1997
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Plan: Use magic and powerstones to summon a 1500 point zombie army in the first few turns and use that to hold up the enemy for most of the game, with each unit created being worth only 50 VP each. Use the Varghulf and wolves to march block and charge light units/warmachines and use the black knights and other wolves to charge units once they engage the zombie line

eleveninches
01-05-2008, 10:34
I just think it would be So funny to get a huge zombie summonned army in a line in front of my basic army, which i would have 2 turns to raise into decent sized units:
power stones to do raise dead, followed by a lot of invokations in turn 1, followed by another load of invokations in turns 2 and 3. By the time the enemy engage my summonned army (about turn 3-4, with dire wolves march-blocking), the zombie units will be big enough to not crumble due to combat res. That means that each turn thereafter i can just raise them up again and again and they only have to survive for 2-3 more turns, then the only victory points that the enemy will get will be 50 VP each for the summonned units, and maybe from killing the varhgulf and wolves.

NecroNurgle
01-05-2008, 10:40
Interesting. It could work against many lists. It's pretty weak versus armies with a lot of mobility, but against hard rank and file it could be pretty funny. I notice you don't have the scepter of noirot in the list, it seems like it would help bolster the numbers quite a bit.

eleveninches
01-05-2008, 10:45
it was an option, but i'd have to drop 2 powerstones, which are essential for overwhelming dominance of the magic phase in turn one. And, the sceptre only works on raise dead, not invokation. Zombies get D6+4 from invokation, plus one for however many corpse carts are in range.

DO you think the corpse carts are worth it, or should i drop them to get something hard-hitting (maybe a black coach, with all of those powerdice floating about)

Esco Thomson
01-05-2008, 12:11
Just make one unit in a line across the table, but make sure it extends more so on your side of the table then your opponents. Then when you charge, most of them are still in the front, so they swing over once they hit, and your opponents army is tied up. :) I'm not sure if that was what you were talking about or not, but this makes it only fifty points for the unit, and stops most, if not all shooting. Buys enough time for you to flank with the proper units, perfect time to use Blood Knights, and sweep through them all. I use the Sceptor in my list and casrts as well.

eleveninches
12-05-2008, 14:21
Same tactic as above, summon an entire zombie army (in FRONT of my vampire ghoul bunkers) in turn 1, overwhelming all magic resistance. Keep the BK's in reserve ready to hammer the zombie anvil when the enemy engages the zombie line (flanking knights hitting on 2+ at S6). Use the lords powerstones and 2-3 of his own dice to do summon undead horde and wind of undeath once per turn, and use the rest of the power dice to raise the zombies up to a level where they will not crumble from combat (about 35/unit), then raise more unitsof zombies.
zombies = unbreakable meatshield, anvil
black knights = hammer

March block with dire wolves, keeping them out of the enemies charge arc. Warmachine hunting for fell bats and varghulfs / dire wolves. Varghulfs can also hold up rank and file units, even twin-charging them if I feel it necessery.

The main concerns i am worrying about are:
1. Dragons that can charge my lords unit, flying over the zombie meatshield (hence the lord having summon ghouls just incase he needs to boost his own unit for CR)
2. Anvils that can wrath and ruin my lords unit.
3. Warmachines on a hill (hence my warmachine hunters)
4. Daemon armies with bluescribes and flying heralds of tzeentch with master of sorcery

Most spells (even if they dont need line of sight) should not be in range of my vampires since they will be virtually untouchable at the back of the board.

eleveninches
12-05-2008, 14:36
1000 point version of the list (using identical tactics):

195: Vampire (+2PD, general, black periapt, helm of commandment)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
80: 10 Ghouls
80: 10 Ghouls
40: 5 Wolves
229: 6 Black Knights (standard, barding, banner of the barrows)

This smaller version has been tested and it does work really well

Andrew Luke
12-05-2008, 14:39
You might want to take forbidden lore, make sure you have the spells you want to throw all those dice at. Also prepare to get 1/5 comp if you go to a tourney.

eleveninches
12-05-2008, 14:44
forbidden lore might be worthwhile on the lord to make sure he gets summon undead horde and wind of undeath. Though it only means losing one power dice (as he would only be lv3), it could be worth it.

The most challenging army to use it against will clearly be dragonlord armies. I could tarpit the dragonlord if i raise a big unit in its flank and dance macabre it in, but its still a bit risky

so, now its:

455: Count (lv3, +2PD, knows all spells, summon ghouls, 5 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
195: Vampire (+2PD, black periapt, helm of commandment)
88: 10 Ghouls (ghast)
80: 10 Ghouls
80: 10 Ghouls
40: 5 Wolves
40: 5 Wolves
60: 3 Fell bats
229: 6 Black Knights (standard, barding, banner of the barrows)
175: Varghulf
175: Varghulf
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1997
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I like the idea of this army a lot, and i cant think of much that would have an easy time beating it (except for dragonlords armies). I think i might even take it to the GT this year depending on how well it fares at my local gaming club

Evil-Lite
12-05-2008, 15:15
it was an option, but i'd have to drop 2 powerstones, which are essential for overwhelming dominance of the magic phase in turn one. And, the sceptre only works on raise dead, not invokation. Zombies get D6+4 from invokation, plus one for however many corpse carts are in range.

Remember, regardless of how many corpse carts (with a lodestone) you have within 6" of a unit, you only get 1 additional wound / model. 1 Corpse Cart or 15 Corpse Carts (with a lodestone) will only increase the summoned amount by +1.

eleveninches
12-05-2008, 15:18
Which is why I have changed the list, dropping the corpse carts

Sarael
12-05-2008, 18:05
Actually, I would probably have kept the cart, though it would mean having to drop something else, and I can't really think of anything you can afford to lose...

In a heavy caster army, I'd rather have the bound spells than all those stones. If you ever find yourself thinking that you've got too many stones, try them out. I personally never play VC w/o the undead bible (Book of Arkhan).

minionboy
12-05-2008, 18:18
I don't think you need to know all the spells, instead just take a couple smaller units of zombies/skeletons and spam IoN on them. If you take the Skull Staff with Lord of the Dead, you're getting +2 to your IoN rolls, making them cast on a roll of 3+, but counting as a roll of 5-8 on one dice, so people will usually need 2 DD per 1 casting dice of yours. :P

Also, instead of +2 PD, try making them level 2 (+1 PD) and give them Lord of the Dead or the Summon Ghouls one.

eleveninches
13-05-2008, 11:09
Just thought of an idea to stop dragonlords from charging my vamps unit. Simply make sure that the zombie unit directly in front of it is only about 1" away from the counts unit, so there is no room for the dragon to charge

Red_Duke
13-05-2008, 15:07
Just out of curiosity, do you actually have 200+ zombie models to actually raise?

Overall interesting, but you are at risk from mobile armies, plus gunlines who will purposely target the units behind the meatshield.

The zombies directly in front is standard meatshield for vamps - especially in smaller games where theres no lord (especially back in 6th ed. when you had a necro as general), although you also have to watch out for fliers going for the unit flanks and rear, which can be a challenge!

Oh, on another point, what do have planned for when you play a lizardman player who nukes your first magic phase with his cube of darkness? (especially if he gets first turn and can start using salamanders etc on you turn 2)

Numiel
13-05-2008, 19:57
Just a small addendum: It is not possible to cast a spell on 2+. The rulebook limits that to 3+. I got rebuked myself at GT...I was also playing the 2+ summoner myself. It is brilliant but illegal.
Only thing better is a 2nd generation Slann with as many W6 damage spells as possible (can choose them basically) and then casting them with 2 dice. Supported with 2-3 skinks those lizzies will kill any Vampire army without even forcing a sweat.

eleveninches
14-05-2008, 08:21
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Just out of curiosity, do you actually have 200+ zombie models to actually raise?

Overall interesting, but you are at risk from mobile armies, plus gunlines who will purposely target the units behind the meatshield.

The gunlines will only be a threat if they have a hill, which is not guarenteed, and even then, only their warmachines will be able to reach my vamps unit. Im going to get over 400 zombies in the next few months. And cube of darkness and vortex shard are unlikely to appear

valdrog
14-05-2008, 14:51
As an O&G player i shudder of facing something like this, i really cant see any easy way of dealing with it at this time. But how would you deal with a High Elf player and Drain magic ? wouldnt that ruin your plans ?

fubukii
14-05-2008, 16:08
simple kill his units that cost actual points, like the vargs, the knight etc. he doesnt have to strong of a magic defense so hitting his hero level vampires with brain buster isnt to hard either. COuld use spider riders to come through terrain and flank is min sized ghoul units. fanaactics will go right through the zombie units too.

YOu just got to remember they are just zombies your average orc will hit on 3s kill on a 2 + in round 1. god forbid if you have 2hw big uns you will kill like 8 zombies a round :)

Just remember only half of his invocations will go off after he blows all the power stones, while he is using the power stones his chances of miscasting raise drastically, zombies are easy to kill, his chars are easy to kill with no armor.

also 11, the sceptre de noirt is only the cost of 1 powerstone,

Teran
14-05-2008, 19:57
I might be crazy, but I wasn't under the impression he was planning on using the power stones for invocation... I interpreted the strategy as using the power stones on the big spells so you could cast more invocations once the zombie units are formed.

eleveninches
15-05-2008, 10:32
simple kill his units that cost actual points, like the vargs, the knight etc. he doesnt have to strong of a magic defense so hitting his hero level vampires with brain buster isnt to hard either. COuld use spider riders to come through terrain and flank is min sized ghoul units. fanaactics will go right through the zombie units too.Easier said than done. The zombies will physically prevent any units from getting to my vampires, except maybe fanatics, which can be brought out of their unit by casting raise dead to a point 8" away from the unit. The fanatics are then unlikely to get to my vamps units


YOu just got to remember they are just zombies your average orc will hit on 3s kill on a 2 + in round 1. god forbid if you have 2hw big uns you will kill like 8 zombies a round :) I dont expect to win any combats until I bring the black knights out of hiding in terrain (woods or behind a building) and charge them into the flank the following turn or dance macabre them in the same turn (S6, hitting on 2+). And Im not bothered about zombies losing combat, as long as they dont totally crumble, i should easily be able to raise back any zombie unit in combat.


Just remember only half of his invocations will go off after he blows all the power stones, while he is using the power stones his chances of miscasting raise drastically, zombies are easy to kill, his chars are easy to kill with no armor.

also 11, the sceptre de noirt is only the cost of 1 powerstone,
Well, the normal vamps will use all powerstones in turn 1 to do 4x raise dead, and then use their normal dice to do invokations. The lord will do summon undead horde with 2 of his own dice and a power stone each turn, using the rest of his own dice for invokations. However, I might be tempted to do wind of undeath instead of summon undead horde against some armies, especially ones with lots of units and small 5-man knight units or a lot of warmachines. Also, I would have to drop 2 powerstones to get the sceptre, though the lord is not planing on doing raise dead at all.

Charachters are not easy to kill if you cant see them and they are in a unit of 10 infantry behind an impenetrable shield of 300 zombies. The only warmachines that can get me are if they have a hill and kill the entire unit, which is highly unlikely. Even Miners and ambushers etc.. are at a disadvantage. My vamps are literally at the back of the board, so as soon as the enemy reserves come onto the board, the vamps will move into the next unit up, have their former unit pivot on the spot and have a unit of zombies turn around ready to flank the enemy reserves. There Isnt really a lot of weaknesses to the army, I just need to make sure that i dont throw away victory points and use the dire wolves/fell bats/varghulfs wisely

eleveninches
15-05-2008, 10:38
As an O&G player i shudder of facing something like this, i really cant see any easy way of dealing with it at this time. But how would you deal with a High Elf player and Drain magic ? wouldnt that ruin your plans ?It would, but it can only be cast once per wizard per turn. And i cant remember if it remains in play or not

andy10k
15-05-2008, 13:31
The high elf one adds +3 to all casting rolls needed, and last untill next high elf magic phase, so bit of a pain for those 1 dice rolls, but with all the power stones i doubt it will be -that- effective, its the lizardmen one which is a pain, discarding all 4,5,6's :S

eleveninches
16-05-2008, 08:19
a slann constantly trying to cast that would be aweful. Can he try to cast it more than once?

EvC
16-05-2008, 13:24
Slann can do it once, only affecting one wizard I believe. So you'd be safe.

Have you had a try with the army yet?

eleveninches
16-05-2008, 14:21
Ive played the 1k version of it, and it is impossible to stop the zombies being raised, and just as impossible to reach the vamps. I just need to be careful of not losing any other units due to recklessness or stupidity. The zombies generally get engaged by turn 4-5, which means that they have only one turn to flan the enemy that charged them, and make it flee.

Mozzamanx
16-05-2008, 14:23
This sounds both ridiculously funny and awesomely powerful. Splendid!

andy10k
16-05-2008, 17:36
What would you do against High/Wood elves though? with mass shooting?

Earlier today i played a High Elf guy with 4 RBTs, 20 archers, star dragon lord + other bits, his shooting phase coupled with high elf magic is pure filth (he can roll well too so that helps lol) and usually (in most tournaments i've been too + the GT) hills are in both deployment zones, so chances of the enemy getting a hill is likely, what would you do V an army such as this? As they will most likely be able to target your lords unit, and obliterate it quite easily including your character :(

I really like the idea though, tempting to give something similar a go myself lol, just so i could pile out 200+ zombies in the corner of my board and let the enemy know that's my "raise pile" ^^.

Also get some battle reports up when possible!! Interesting reads.

Akuma
17-05-2008, 10:00
And what if you dont get 1 turn ? opponents shoots your ghoul unit to oblivion and cannon your lord ? Your army would have very hard time aginst Dwarfs - can do thing mentioned above , Empire - even easier , My beloved Tzeensh legion would walk right throught you - especialy with bloue scribes and kairos - count how many extra PD i would get ... , Wood elves with moonstone out of the forest trick coud also spell doom for you - this is tournament setting only - if we would be talking about set up metches - High elves with I end your phase and Lizardman with I end your phase on 4+ with a reroll ... not saying your army is weak but I'll say that well ... If you like to play a game that is decided by ONE AND ONLY THROW - that has 50% of succes - well then you need a therapist :D

Lord Anathir
17-05-2008, 22:19
now now, I think we're getting alittle overboard by the first turn thing.

First of all, what exactly is going to be hitting these guys first turn at over 24 inches? certainly not handgunners, and the last time i checked xbows werent the weapon of choice in dwarf and empire armies. Sure, war machines can kill off a unit, but its highly unlikely to get every last ghoul with templates and such. Cannons going after your lord is the same threat as every other turn anyways.

You could simply hide your ghouls behind terrain for the first turn...

A few lists will give you problems, like the aforementioned high elf dragon army from the province of arrowland.

What if your magic fails/miscasts or your opponent has equally strong magic. What if your opponent doesnt give a !@#$ about how many zombies you have and jsut goes about killing all your support units and hides away for the solid/minor win?

To improve the list:
Although I think magic heavy is fantastic, close combat is very important. You can cap the magic phase at 12-ish dice. That is enough to hurt the armies with little magic defense, and not as much of a point sink when you come across the 8dd 4 scroll armies. How would you stop brettonians? They will go through your army faster then crap through a goose.

VC Doke
17-05-2008, 23:35
On making new units:


Maybe I missed his intentions, but maybe he was going to use a 12+ Summon Undead Horde on 4 dice (73% chance of success) to make 5d6 zombies. That's an average of 20-21 zombies.

That would be better than spending 2 dice on Raise Dead d3 + 4 then 2 dice on Invocation for another d6 + 4.
That's an average of 13-14 zombies.

Thoughts?

Akuma
18-05-2008, 07:19
xbows werent the weapon of choice in dwarf and empire armies.

And this is where your wrong ... - Crossbow is far superiror to the handgun in empire army as it only has -1 to ap but 6" range makes it possible to shoot first if you get 1 turn ...

About hiding the units ... man I dont know what tables do you play - but look at the bigining of your book to se how the tables should be arranged - not many places to hide behind yeah ?

Cannons are devastating - killer for this army - becasue if crossbowmen can wittle the unit down to 4 people ( so 6 kills only ) vamp wont get LoS roll :)

EvC
18-05-2008, 22:17
Helps if you first read the rulebook you tell others to read, Akuma. If placed by both players as described in the rulebook, then he will be able to ensure a hiding place for his Vampire Lord in every game. Even if terrain was random, he'd still be able to find a hiding place somewhere. Also remember that guess range weapons are fired first, so there's absolutely no chance of Crossbowmen killing 6 Ghouls and then a Cannon shot blowing his Lord's head off in the same turn.

Draconian77
18-05-2008, 22:31
Well said, sounds like a funny army and although most Warmachines won't be a problem watch out for my 4x RBT's! Always assume your enemy will have a hill when writing your list. You shouldn't have to but it has helped me tremendously.

Some armies could probably just punch right through the Zombie shield and into your Vamps units. One thing is for sure, balanced forces wont work against this list. You need dedicated CC or dedicated shooting/magic.

kaintxu
18-05-2008, 23:30
What would you do againts demons with great standar of sudering which is bound to see a lot? -2 on all you spellcasts. intead of 4+ for the spell you will be at 6+ for it, making you to roll 2 dices and still be as many fail casts and many many more magic disfunctions, so that pretty muchs ruins you

fubukii
19-05-2008, 03:15
zombie screen meet death frenzied clanrat spearmen! (31 str 3 attacks ftw :P take that he spearmen)

eleveninches
19-05-2008, 11:49
Earlier today i played a High Elf guy with 4 RBTs, 20 archers, star dragon lord + other bits, his shooting phase coupled with high elf magic is pure filth (he can roll well too so that helps lol) and usually (in most tournaments i've been too + the GT) hills are in both deployment zones, so chances of the enemy getting a hill is likely, what would you do V an army such as this? As they will most likely be able to target your lords unit, and obliterate it quite easily including your character Dispell all their magic. The dragonlord wont have space to charge my generals unit, and wont cause terror in me. Also, his archers on the hill will be well out of range of the generals unit.
And what if you dont get 1 turn ? opponents shoots your ghoul unit to oblivion Not much on the enemy side of the board will be in range of the generals unit (except warmachines, which wont be able to kill the entire unit)
First of all, what exactly is going to be hitting these guys first turn at over 24 inches? exactly!
What if your opponent doesnt give a !@#$ about how many zombies you have and jsut goes about killing all your support units and hides away for the solid/minor win? That would be a very boring game. though psychology goes a long way. I could cast wind of undeath once per turn, which would work well against knight heavy armies and warmachine heavy armies
How would you stop brettonians? Speedbump. And marchblock with wolves. Or, Cast raise dead a few times to get 2 single rank units of zombies in front of my zombie line. The enemy will only kill 1 unit per turn, then have the black knights charge into their flank (hitting on 2+ from HoC)

What would you do againts demons with great standar of sudering which is bound to see a lot? -2 on all you spellcasts. intead of 4+ for the spell you will be at 6+ for it, making you to roll 2 dices and still be as many fail casts and many many more magic disfunctions, so that pretty muchs ruins you Hmmm. Thats something to watch out for. I think a vargulf would go after him, and focus all attacks on the BSB (they cant flee cos they're immunt to psychology)

eleveninches
19-05-2008, 11:54
Not sure if I mentionned it, but in the first rounds of combat, it will be the engaged zombie unit that gets WS6 from the vamp with HoC. So it will be a lot harder to hit them.



An option is to drop the warmachine hunters and 1 varghulf, and replace them with:
7 Black Knights (standard, musician, banner of the dead legion)
Hellsteed for the lord

Hide the knights in a wood near to my zombie line. Then when the enemy comes down to meat the zombies, the knights march out, and the lord flies over and uses dance macabre (maybe even 2 times) to get the unit into the enemy flank. US28 means it will outnumber most enemies, and charging into the flank should make them win the combat as well. Though it means I will have virtually nothing to go warmachine hunting, and just 1 varghulf left (maybe going wizard hunting or just holding up expensive units). The alternative for warmachine hunting is doing wind of undeath each turn, though im not sure if the wound would have to be randomised between crew and machine. Also would work well against knight armies.



I worked out which models I wanted for my vampires, but cant get them ATM because of stupid mail order changing to not sell the older models. I wanted one of the old sexy daemonettes (without claws), and the mordheim female countess.

Akuma
19-05-2008, 13:28
"If placed by both players as described in the rulebook,"

Helps to play some tournaments first EvC - on how many GT do you set up terrain yourself ?

"Even if terrain was random, he'd still be able to find a hiding place somewhere."

If he uses such army - he is going WAAC - co can I - care to elaborate on term overguessing ? And hitting things behind forrest - look at the said book once again - how many forest do you see in each dep zone ? in the first picture you see one and in the second none in dep zone ... on all serious tournaments AFTER the FAQ's there will be no forest at all - chance moonstone of the hidden ways would win the tournys all by itself ... - but hay - you dont have to know that - you obviously rule in fun games with long term friends not competative enviroment :)

The whole - I will hide my this and that inside a forest is just chilidish - the forest is as much situational as building - and as I say it once again - on tournaments after the FAQ every forest in dep zone is just asking for call of unfair judges ...

If he set up ghouls more then 24" of my line - lets say within 5" of the board to ensure that no crossbow fire will hit him - count how many times he will have to move to cover the board with them ? 8"x5 = 40" that means if empire opponent is smart he will just use cannons to destroy things like vargs and blood knights - and concentrate on disspelling van hales ... then he will have no chance of killing anything as he must go all the way across the board to recive a charge in the last turn ...

"Also remember that guess range weapons are fired first, so there's absolutely no chance of Crossbowmen killing 6 Ghouls and then a Cannon shot blowing his Lord's head off in the same turn."

Who said it needs to be in one turn ? this is WAAC army - the opponent will have 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks - 6 shoots that call for LoS roll - you immagine that if all hit one roll will fail ? or if we give it two turns - only half have to hit each turn to fail the roll ? Or if we are speaking of new deamons - they can drag a unit with his general in CC in 1 turn ( Demontettes or KoS - 20" move + siren )

The concentration on magic in this army - while having so little of troops from the start - calls for help

eleveninches
19-05-2008, 13:33
Or if we are speaking of new deamons - they can drag a unit with his general in CC in 1 turn ( Demontettes or KoS - 20" move + siren )
Siren song requires me to be able to charge the KOS, which i would only be able to do if I gave the lord a hellsteed (possible, but ill-advised). Siren standard lets my only charge response to be to hold, but thats the only charge response allowed by undead anyway

Akuma
19-05-2008, 15:15
"Siren song requires me to be able to charge the KoS, which i would only be able to do if I gave the lord a hellsteed (possible, but ill-advised)."

Not Quite - if you deploy 24" away - its 8" of your charge + 20" of KoS movment - It can easly drag you in if you happen to be 28" away if you are mounted on hell stead the distance is 36" so the whole field ...

Of course there is also one last thing - very wrong with this army - you have to A LOT of models - painted , based and so on - if not you are just a child who plays theory hammer - but i dont think thats the case - so you have this many zombis - good - now there is very big problem - GT games last 6 turns or 2H If opponent is smart - he will stall your turns beyond tommarow - every unit will be mesured to be in 12" every roll observed every one of your messurment checked ( as it is normal thing alowed at Gt ) If you plan on moving this stuff all together this will give your opponent another minutes of essuring and checking - from experiance - playing with such army would result in hmmm 3 or 4 turns max - that would mean that you wouldnt reach my line

Hell steed is not ill advised - it gives your lord speed - a thing that he would be very happy for in order to survive things like mounted dragon lords , bloodthristers and so on

"Hmmm. Thats something to watch out for. I think a vargulf would go after him, and focus all attacks on the BSB (they cant flee cos they're immunt to psychology)"

How exactly would you plan to catch 20" moving target with 16" march ?

fubukii
19-05-2008, 16:07
khorne heralds are monsters in combat and thats what he wants to send the varg after, im not sure thats a wise choice at all so 95% of khorne heralds have a 0+ save 5+ ward str 7 and flaming attacks, it would make insanely quick work of the vargulf.

Akuma
19-05-2008, 16:19
fubukii you forgot one thing ... thay reroll hits in round of combat :D - ok had to write this :D

fubukii
19-05-2008, 22:34
yes that is true hatred is pretty nifty, especially when paired with ws7 :)

OldMagik
20-05-2008, 01:53
A well placed Stonethrower or anything like it hit will be deadly. Even a look out sir won't help you if there is no one to say it (everyone else getting squashed as well)

Sarael
20-05-2008, 03:57
I was a doubter in this list, but something intrigued me. I think it was mostly how I used to play a necromancer army, and the thing I always lacked was CC. Even a basic vamp is a CC beast, so I decided to give the list a try. I played Emp Gunline, HE MSUs, and Ogre MSUs (MONSTER SIZED Units :P) over the weekend, and here is my experience...

I did things slightly different, going with my trusty KoBKs and Felbats instead of BKs with Vargs. My vamps were power dice fiends w/ MotBA but they carried a scroll each instead of the pair of stones. My Count differed considerably. I used Manfred, with BoA and Skull Staff. In the end, I wished I'd given one vamp the book, one vamp the RoFD, and taken a regular Vamp Lord with HoC and SS, then a scroll caddie. All the vamps have 3 dice a turn anyway, which is plenty for RD. Manfred, of course, was IoNing on 3+ rolls whatever he wanted.

Anyway, what happened was this...

I slaughtered the Empire. Huge block of 30+ zombies charged on T2 assisted with a flank charge by KoBKs, and both empire flanks fell. The WMs were zero threat, but that's because they had a huge block of zombies directly in front of them, and couldn't overguess the 12" they needed to get to my general. Poor fool spread his fire out though instead of crushing one unit at a time like he should have. I got stupid, because I mentioned this to him as I was setting up to play the HE, who...

Crushed me like a dog. I will hate SMs & Drain Magic for as long as I live. Even KoBKs can't stand up to a spread out unit of SMs in the face. This was my first time playing HE since I got the book though (he's been busy with graduation and finals) so at least I got to experience it. LSG and bolt throwers killed off my zombies quickly, and meant the vampires were all alone in their charge to the HE bladesmen. I mistakenly went ahead with the charge instead of maneuvering for a Horde + Flank the next turn. With my knight units out of the game, it was not difficult for the elite elves to mop up what remained of my undead legion. Flank + rear charges and CR from 15+ LSG attacks meant I lost so many skellies/ghouls to combat, that CR killed off my vamps. This was the game I missed the helm, and I missed it quite much.

Ogres went much differently. While their general is our youngest player (8) she's also gotten pretty skilled at knowing what her fatties can take on and what they can't. She tarpitted my Knights for a long time with her 2 big bull units and the regen spell. Long enough for her general and his Ironguts to smash Manfred into a bloody paste. While I lost my general on T5, I did still squeek out a minor victory when my KoBKs finally killed off the bulls and support units. All she had left was her general and guts, and all I'd lost was 3 ghoul blocks and my general. Losing the Standards in her Bull units to my knights is what won the game for me.

Hindsight: I wish I'd taken the magic items I listed above. The stones were overkill, and I could have used the flexibility of more magic. The HoC would have saved my Knights from the devastation of their failed charge on the SMs (I'd have only lost 1 knight, whereas 3 of them would have been hitting on 3+ on the elves...). I made more mistakes to the elves than everyone else though, and he IS the best player in our group. I just didn't think S5 was going to break that many of my vampires, ASF or not, and I was wrong.

I'm going to break down my thoughts on how one should equip his/her vampires for this style. It's been used in the past, and while I eventually stopped playing this way, it WAS nice to play the army again, even if it was quite a bit different :)

I'm now a believer in Zombies for 1k games...

eleveninches
20-05-2008, 08:31
Not Quite - if you deploy 24" away - its 8" of your charge + 20" of KoS movment - It can easly drag you in if you happen to be 28" away if you are mounted on hell stead the distance is 36" so the whole field ...
I still cant charge him because the zombie meatshield will mean i physically will not be able to reach him, despite the fact that he is a large target so i can see him.

Hell steed is not ill advised - it gives your lord speed - a thing that he would be very happy for in order to survive things like mounted dragon lords , bloodthristers and so on It is ill advised to have him out on his own.
Though i could play him like a heirophant and have him fly out of line of sight and cast movement and summoning spells, and i could see the point in doing that, I think it would be wiser to keep him in the ghoul bunkers behind the zombie line for the whole game. Less chance of being shot at

Akuma
20-05-2008, 08:48
"It is ill advised to have him out on his own. Though i couls play him like a heirophant and have him fly out of line of sight and cast movement and summoning spells"

Does hell stead stops you from hiding him in skillis unit :) ? It lets you gallop out of GD sight as soon as he gets close enought to charge

But seriously - what is the purpose of this list realy ? Tournaments come to mind - as it is very dull and boring to play with or aginst - if so how would you deal with the stalling ?

eleveninches
20-05-2008, 10:04
Does hell stead stops you from hiding him in skillis unit ? It lets you gallop out of GD sight as soon as he gets close enought to charge If hes just going to join another unit, he doesnt need hellsteed, as he will still be able to march 12" which is more than enough movement to get to the next ghoul unit. The whole point about Greater daemons charging me is not applicable either, since they literally wouldnt have enough space to get to my vamps unit, as the huge zombie blocks start less than an inch in front of the vamps unit, and the greater daemon bases are more than an inch deep.

eleveninches
20-05-2008, 10:07
I'm now a believer in Zombies for 1k games... Oh hell yeah. I can easily raise over 200 zombies in my 1000 point summoning list.

Sarael
20-05-2008, 10:38
Yep, I'm sold on 'em again.

BTW, by my calculations, you get 100 points of summoned baddies a turn with that many PD by using a Loadstoned Cart. I'm trying to find the points for one myself. Decisions, decisions...

Anyway, I'm still not sold on all the stones. 12 extra dice total means 2 per magic phase. Not worth the loss of the book, rod, hand, and helmet, IMO.

Also, I'm going to stick with the helmet on my Lord. I REALLY regretted not having it in my test games Sunday, but I broke my 2nd rule of vampires: Thou shalt not have Manfred as thy only Lord.

EvC
20-05-2008, 17:32
"If placed by both players as described in the rulebook,"

Helps to play some tournaments first EvC - on how many GT do you set up terrain yourself ?

Haha, how cute. First you tell us to look at the start of the rulebook about how terrain is placed, and now it turns out you were talking about tournament games. So which is it, pick-up games, where he can place the terrain, or games with pre-placed terrain?


If he uses such army - he is going WAAC - co can I - care to elaborate on term overguessing ?

So you're a cheater as well then? And you'd waste time as well, according to later posts? Oh well, I suppose it's good to see how cheaters operate... what else would you do, move your models wehile the opponent's not looking?


And hitting things behind forrest - look at the said book once again - how many forest do you see in each dep zone ?

You do realise that the picture is just an example, right? There's no set rule, and at those GTs that you and I presumably both go to, there's always a fair amount of terrain on the table. Often too much. Rarely is there no hiding place.


on all serious tournaments AFTER the FAQ's there will be no forest at all - chance moonstone of the hidden ways would win the tournys all by itself ... - but hay - you dont have to know that - you obviously rule in fun games with long term friends not competative enviroment :)

Check the Wood Elf FAQ again.


If he set up ghouls more then 24" of my line - lets say within 5" of the board to ensure that no crossbow fire will hit him - count how many times he will have to move to cover the board with them ? 8"x5 = 40" that means if empire opponent is smart he will just use cannons to destroy things like vargs and blood knights - and concentrate on disspelling van hales ... then he will have no chance of killing anything as he must go all the way across the board to recive a charge in the last turn ...

Very true. Good thing he's playing a summoning army then. It would be an interesting game, for sure.



Who said it needs to be in one turn ? this is WAAC army - the opponent will have 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks - 6 shoots that call for LoS roll - you immagine that if all hit one roll will fail ? or if we give it two turns - only half have to hit each turn to fail the roll ? Or if we are speaking of new deamons - they can drag a unit with his general in CC in 1 turn ( Demontettes or KoS - 20" move + siren )

Well, it pretty much has to be in one turn because the army has about a bazillion power dice and will be able to raise any ghoul unit back up in his army phase. But yep, hoping for a failed look out sir roll will be a good strategy against this army. Which is why I'm sure that the user will make sure to hide his general effectively if it matters. And be able to do so, even if you can't imagine it ;)


The concentration on magic in this army - while having so little of troops from the start - calls for help

I agree, it could be a huge downfall. One Vortex Shard, Cube of Darkness, Spell-destroyer, etc and eleveninches will be on the run...

Sarael
21-05-2008, 04:57
Nah, losing one turn of summoning from a shut down magic phase isn't that big of a deal. He's got power stones, and a lot of them. The zombie horde will be in place, and there's not much that can stop it. One thing which CAN stop it, is Drain Magic. When your magic phase relies on single dice spells and you can shut down or otherwise penalize so many of those single dice, it spells doom for you. If half of my points are tied up in summoners, and I rely on my 16+ power dice per turn for my army's backbone, and half of my dice are useless...

Which is why I took a scroll caddy when I tested a similar list. I knew that I couldn't allow a single Drain Magic in play. I've not seen the Demons rulebook, but if there is a magic std in it which imposes -2 to all spells as I've heard, and it isn't a bound spell type effect, then it would also give me fits (as in all my heavy hitters would immediately go after that BSB). In a way, it's not as bad as it sounds: half of your dice are going to come up failures on IoN/RD anyway, so having to roll an extra die means that you ARE at least stacking them up.

Akuma
21-05-2008, 07:33
First you tell us to look at the start of the rulebook about how terrain is placed

Maybye because this is how the Tournament organizers should place terraint :) ?


So you're a cheater as well then?

Oh no dear sir nothing like that - If someone uses this kind of army - it means that I can use whatever means possible to deafate him - if he places one of this zombie line in front of his vampire - all that i need is thet "oops" 4" to far - well my aim is of today - and one failed look out sir roll :) - Overguessing is far more liquid then for example impossible charge - and its exactly same rule banding as immortal flaggalents unit - so why its not banned then ?


There's no set rule, and at those GTs that you and I presumably both go to, there's always a fair amount of terrain on the table.

Does concept of guide lines mean something to you - you use guide lines if players are not savy with the amount of terrain - If one onets non at all and the other wants a jungle - well of to the BrB you go


Check the Wood Elf FAQ again.

The last time I've checked ( 2 m ago ) my canadian site version has clear wording of moonstone beeing usable IN OPPONENT TURN - that means that I can charge a dragon of a forest in 12" radius ... on turn 2 ... - sorry my turn one ...

Sarael
21-05-2008, 08:13
Akuma, so long as you stay within the rules, you can always use whatever means necessary to win. Keep in mind, zombies are WS1, S & T 2. Gnoblars are better fighters than Zombies (as I found out this weekend...), but zombies are undead. The ONLY time zombies become actually useful is in exactly this style, and when combined with the helm of command for the increased WS. Otherwise, they're completely canon fodder, and the only thing they do is provide rank bonus and outnumbering to smaller units, like cavalry and vargs. The rank bonus is often negated by them being slaughtered in combat due to how fragile they are, and summoned zombies don't get command, so there goes that.

Also, if you buy them with points, they're twice as expensive as Gnoblars, but watching zombies fight Gnoblars is like watching chosen chaos warriors of khorne dual wielding against gobbo archers...

Akuma
21-05-2008, 09:10
"so long as you stay within the rules, you can always use whatever means necessary to win."

Sarael the problem is that overguessing is freeriding the rules - you cant say that VC was developed with making stall armys - such as i cant say that overguess was normaln taken into account possibility of using the rules ...

All I'm saying is that there are at least 2 tournament builds that would be quite decnet aginst this one - one of them beeing new deamons and the other typical empire 4+2 so the meta is totaly aginst this army - also I asked OP is he realy concidering using it or this is kind like mind experiment.

eleveninches
21-05-2008, 09:18
Im seriously considering using it this year at the GT, but have to see how the 2k point version works at my local gaming club before deciding for good

Akuma
21-05-2008, 09:29
And you will paint and asamble how many zombis for it ?

eleveninches
21-05-2008, 09:39
400 approx

EvC
21-05-2008, 12:33
Maybye because this is how the Tournament organizers should place terraint?

Again, it's an example. Do you actually play at any tournaments? If you do (or even if you don't, but have an ounce of common sense), you'll know that the vast majority of tables are diverse, and don't look identical. They certainly don't all end up looking like one picture in the rulebook.


Oh no dear sir nothing like that - If someone uses this kind of army - it means that I can use whatever means possible to deafate him - if he places one of this zombie line in front of his vampire - all that i need is thet "oops" 4" to far - well my aim is of today - and one failed look out sir roll :) - Overguessing is far more liquid then for example impossible charge - and its exactly same rule banding as immortal flaggalents unit - so why its not banned then ?

Overguessing isn't as big a crime, but if you'd stall, then you are a cheater and I'd hope you wouldn't do so. Although, let's face it, in an army like this, with umpteen castings per turn and hundreds of models to move- an opposing player isn't going to need to stall. I expect that someone using this army in a tournament would be unlikely to get past turn 4 in most of their games. So that is a very important issue you've brought up, really.


Does concept of guide lines mean something to you - you use guide lines if players are not savy with the amount of terrain - If one onets non at all and the other wants a jungle - well of to the BrB you go

One would hope that whoever is organising the terrain would be savvy of how much is appropriate, and wouldn't just look at one lone picture. In my experience, they are more likely to place too much terrain down than too little. Mostly because they're often set up by 40K players who aren't taking part in the tournament, and think that the table should have 8 bits of terrain ;)


The last time I've checked ( 2 m ago ) my canadian site version has clear wording of moonstone beeing usable IN OPPONENT TURN - that means that I can charge a dragon of a forest in 12" radius ... on turn 2 ... - sorry my turn one ...

Ah, well that's what you get for being Canadian. Use the UK site (that's what we'll be using over here ;) ):
http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/download.htm?/news/errata/assets/wh/woodelves.pdf
Enjoy! No more broken Moonstone :)

Anyway, we've railroaded this enough, I think it's safe to accept that eleveninches will be able to hide his general. Usually.

eleveninches
21-05-2008, 12:36
THe zombie horde wont just be in front of the ghoul bukers. THere will be a unit on each flank as well. Or I could just deploy in the corner and only need one zombie unit to hide my flank. The lord did get summon ghouls just so that he can choose to increase the size of his own bunker if he feels that it will get targeted by stone throwers or RBT.

Akuma
22-05-2008, 10:32
Eleven and how will you deal with the subtell stalling - I mean 400 zombis is: 1.) Hard to paint on a level that will alow you good marks for it 2.) Same with the basing 3.) Darn expensive if you ask me , and finally 4.) Very valnurable for subtell stalling - As some poster said before - even without stalling you are rearly going past turn 4 - if opponents takes his time in his turns and stalls you - gently so the ref cant do nothing about it - in your turn - the game will "end" in the middle of 3 turn ...

andy10k
22-05-2008, 18:16
I've played games with people trying to stall, and in a 2 hour game, it isn't as easy as you're saying it is, he will easily get to turn 5-6 as long as he doesn't sit there taking 5mins to decide where to raise models that is lol.

Sarael
23-05-2008, 05:09
He moves forward on his turn and raises his zombie units w/in 12". Next turn, if they aren't already charged, they charge.

I whipped out 3 2nd turn charges last weekend, by zombies, against the same gunline.

Move up 8, summon 12. If not for him burning both his disp scrolls on my book + VHDM, I'd have charged with units on first turn, and not even had to have Ghoulkin to do it!

Akuma
23-05-2008, 09:45
@andy10k

"Although, let's face it, in an army like this, with umpteen castings per turn and hundreds of models to move- an opposing player isn't going to need to stall. I expect that someone using this army in a tournament would be unlikely to get past turn 4 in most of their games."

EvC lives in London - you might even know each other - If you dont I recomend you to play with him and see how a good player ( and by quality of his post i presume he is one ) can stall an army and not even be accused of doing it ...

@ Sarael - He moves 8" to stay in regs and not to put himself in danger of beeing cannoned - so he is 20" deep in the 48" table - then he casts I make zombis spell - 12" give him 32" covarage - and zombis can charge ( by magic in that turn ) only 8" so you have 8" short of covering whole table ...

The only thing you are telling us by posting your experiance is that you should play with more experienced opponents - Typical gunline will be far away at the very end of the battle field aginst new VC - thay can cover the whole distance with cannons - thay can make distracition by skirmishing archers and they can easly grind any zombis by 2 steam tanks ...

Ok now for some deliberating - this is my typical 4+2 list - it has won many tournaments - I dont claim it to be non standard - probably every other emp gun line look quite like it - I would want to know how Eleven would counter it

Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour
Sword of Fate
Shield of the Gorgon
Van Horstman's Speculum
War Altar

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 1
Rod of Power

5 Knightly Orders

5 Knightly Orders

5 Flagellant Warbands
Prophet of Doom

12 Crossbowmen
6 x Archer

12 Crossbowmen
6 x Archer

12 Crossbowmen
5 x Archer

4x Great Cannon

2x Steam Tank

Casting Pool: 4
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 90
Total Army Cost: 2250

It has 2x Diss scrolls and 8 DD if i want to play safe of 9 if i want to have 33% of not geting them ...

I wont ever disspel any of his incantrations - only van hales - the 6 cannons will concentrate on all things that dont squise in behind terrain and will overshoot if he ever makes zombis in front of something that i want to shoot at ...

When he shumbles with the hord close to my line - stanks will easly deal with any zombies and so will the walter - flaggalents are here for uber blood knight regiments or similiar thing from other armys as it is impossible to kill them on charge and effectivly it gives me one turn of 4 cannons at intended targets - also mark 36 crossbow shots that will make shiskebabs out of any and all flying troops and 3 units of distractors in skirmish - ready to sacrifice - so are 2 units of knights on horses at 115 pts thay are cheep and effective way of giving opponent something to do

A NOTE on overguessing - Doing it is wrong. Unsportsman. Some may even call it cheating ... The only problem is that - its very very fluid - If GW wanted to deal with it - you would simply roll art dice and if no missfire you could place cannonball in front of the intended target - as the situation is diffrent it only means that mistake can be made ... the typical margin is 10" - if Vamp wants to cast anything on the newly created zombi unit - he just has to be in 12" - 10" + minimal 2" of flyight if not buried - = 12" and that right in the face of the said vampire - hope the ghouls have good reflexes ....

eleveninches
23-05-2008, 11:20
Against the above army:
I would deploy my wolves first and force you to deploy 2 of your units, then the 2 varghulf deploy, forcing you to give up more deployment choices. Then the ghouls set up as far away from your army as possible, right in the table corner. Black Knights deploy behind terrain, not too far away from the ghouls, then the fell bats deploy last, in a position to fly behind a forest in turn 1. I put the vamps in the 3 ghoul units and start the game. Only your cannons will be in range, and they can either shoot the vargulfs or try to kill the ghouls, which will not work, as there is no way that the entire unit will die in 1 turn. I fly my bats behind terrain, placing them so that they can see one of your missile units, and only one of your missile units can see them. The wolves will stay out of your charge arc and keep out of your crossbowmen's line of fire. One of the varghulf will go with the wolves to let them march, whilst the other will hide behind a piece of scenery in the centre of the board, waiting for your knights to come towards my zombie units. I now raise a big zombie army in front of my ghouls, which should be out of charge range of your knights in your next turn, and will almost definately be out of range of your crossbowmen. The lord could do wind of undeath this turn as well. Just out of curiosity, are the steam tanks attacks magical? If not, I will just use a raised unit of spirit host to keep it engaged for the entire game.
Turn 2. I can now charge the bats at the only unit that it can see. The varghulf and wolves will charge a cannon each, whilst the other varghulf will go all-out and try to kill a wizard. I will summon a lot more zombies this turn, and do wind of undeath again to get another spirit host. It will probably be scrolled, but I should still get a lot of zombies raised.
Turn 3. Now my zombie units will get big enough to prevent you from making them totally crumble. Most of the cannons crews will be dead or fleeing. Spirit hosts will engage your steam tanks if they engage my zombie line. I keep my varghulfs and fell bats going after wizards and warmachines, and have them causing terror all over the place. THen I just keep raising stuff over and over again, so that you are never going to get through my zombie line and never get to my ghouls or vampires. If you do charge my zombie line, the black knights can think about coming out of hiding to charge you, but they wont do that if it means getting a flank-shot from a cannon

Akuma
23-05-2008, 11:29
Ok your interpretation of Wfb clearly says that either you only play theoryhammer or you play with people that can hardly read ...

I wont go in deep how wrong is the description you have written ... I think the other posters will do it - as I would be biased ...

You walked in the oldest trap in the whole portent warseer forum history - now get ready to feal the heat :)

fubukii
23-05-2008, 19:30
11 i see some flaws in your tactics,

for starters if the vargulf, wolves and bats are all ready to charge by turn 2, that means that either A) his stanks can charge you, B) he can shoot you with xbows and cannons, Or C) he really deployed poorly and left his cannons undefended.

andy10k
23-05-2008, 23:21
Yeah 11, from reading the description it just appears like -everything- would be going your way and your opponent isn't playing properly at all, falling for all your traps lol.

Terrain isn't as amazingly placed as you picture it, obviously we don't play at the same clubs and stuff, but at most tournaments (only been to 40k GTs so unsure on fantasy terrain placement) they scatter the terrain, so chances of lots of terrain being where you hope it is just doesn't occur, you wont get these awesome charges you pray for :P. Though your general idea for countering gunlines like that are good i suppose.

Hope to see you on the top tables at the GT this year then :P. Good luck!

Sarael
24-05-2008, 05:56
Akuma - He didn't bring Stanks because he doesn't have the models, though he does have Walter and his wizard support. And he deploys 7" from the back usually, to prevent things like this, but terrain prevented that (his hill was in the way). He could have placed them somewhere else I suppose, but then Walter would have been hiding behind his gunline, and there would have been no room for his helblasters except to put them both in front of the hill with the cannons, and he wanted them spread out to cover more ground.

Also, where's your 3rd wizard with the ring? And where's your 100 infantry? he has 100 handgunners. Stank schmank, my blood knights would probably kill it on the charge, though I'd need all 10 to charge the same one at the same time. 32 S7 attacks...

Wind of (Un)Death much?

Oh, and we've come up with rules to take care of overguessing. Line up the cannon, place your marker in the front of the unit, roll artillery. Any number moves the marker back half that many ", Misfire means what it already does. Then proceed as normal. It should be the rule anyway, as trained artillerymen would at least be that accurate. Cannons misfire too often in this game as it is, but generals in real warfare at the time the cannon was invented kept themselves out of cannon range. I realize this game isn't meant to be a simulator of actual warfare, but if a rule can be broken, then it needs changed, and that was the rule our gunliners came up with (and we all agreed, since it means our heroes can't be as easily cannon sniped now).

However, now that you mention it, how would I deal with the risk of my characters being cannon sniped? I'd have to rely on my 2+ LOS!, or I'd simply deploy him in some woods or behind some other terrain (both if possible). You're talking to the guy who once played a 5Stone Count who opened up the game with chain Wind of Undeath simply to get the dispel scrolls out of the way.

andy10k
24-05-2008, 07:41
You're talking to the guy who once played a 5Stone Count who opened up the game with chain Wind of Undeath simply to get the dispel scrolls out of the way.

Your Count can only cast it once though, or did you get it with other vampires too?

eleveninches
24-05-2008, 09:31
Yeah 11, from reading the description it just appears like -everything- would be going your way and your opponent isn't playing properly at all, falling for all your traps lol.

Terrain isn't as amazingly placed as you picture it, obviously we don't play at the same clubs and stuff, but at most tournaments (only been to 40k GTs so unsure on fantasy terrain placement) they scatter the terrain, so chances of lots of terrain being where you hope it is just doesn't occur, you wont get these awesome charges you pray for :P. Though your general idea for countering gunlines like that are good i suppose.

Hope to see you on the top tables at the GT this year then :P. Good luck!

I was told that the fantasy GT tables have fixed terrain.
You walked in the oldest trap in the whole portent warseer forum history - now get ready to feal the heat Okay, maybe I went a bit far in my big post, but I was just trying to make the point that the empire army listed above COULD be beaten, as I would stay out of range of his xbows and then only his cannons could hurt me, which I would be going for with my fast units. And the cannons wont do too much damage against the zombie horde anyway.
for starters if the vargulf, wolves and bats are all ready to charge by turn 2, that means that either A) his stanks can charge you, B) he can shoot you with xbows and cannons, Or C) he really deployed poorly and left his cannons undefended. They will hide behind terrrain on turn 1, position themselves out of xbow line of sight on turn 2 and charge on turn 3, though the bats will be charging turn 2, and one of the varghulfs will march in turn 2 to cause terror around his cannons and missile units.

Sarael
24-05-2008, 10:40
Your Count can only cast it once though, or did you get it with other vampires too?

Before I ran my mouth about casting necromancy spells as often as I had dice, I decided to reread the rules, and halfway through flipping to the page, I remembered that only IoN, RD, and VHDM are Necro spells... then smacked myself in the forehead.

Unintentionally, I cheated. Yes, I cast 4 of them turn one from my Count, fueled by stones. That's going to make for an interesting discussion tomorrow afternoon (You call our gunlines cheesy but you had to cheat with VC magic!!!) I'll deserve the cheese wiz I get sprayed with :P

Akuma
24-05-2008, 11:31
"Also, where's your 3rd wizard with the ring? And where's your 100 infantry? he has 100 handgunners. Stank schmank, my blood knights would probably kill it on the charge, though I'd need all 10 to charge the same one at the same time. 32 S7 attacks..."

The third wizard would be a waste of points :) 2 are more then enought to stop the spells I just cant allow to happen

100 infantry ? - how would I ever place that on the table top ? Gunlienes can be valid and fun to play - thay are not always about the number of shoots but rather about the number of times i can get them to fire

I dont think you could get 10 knights in the contact with the stank thats one thing - and If you get Frenzied troops where you want - you once agin not playing opponents on your level - Seriously get better opponents - thay will not only teach you to play well but on top of that give much more fun playing games - aginst empire BK will never charge anything I dont want them to - because with frenzy aginst 3 units of skirmishers i can easly get them in contact with flaglants and then hit them with 2 stanks - also 10 KoBK is 550 pts without upgrades :)

"I was told that the fantasy GT tables have fixed terrain."

Yes - fixed used guidelines in BrB - look at the terrain plaicng there - the middle is almost empty 2 forests ( of course it will look diffrent - no doubt - but thay stoped going with 8+ terrain pices when all exept WE complained about it :) )

You'r main flaw is having great deal of your whole tactic based on the idea that the terrain will be set up exactly how you would like it to - hiding this and this and this behind would mean that a) there is much more terrain then thare realy is b) its deployed in most favorable way for you.

I agree that aginst zombies cannons are quite dull - but aginst all other things in the list - like wargoulfs and stuff thay are great - Empire would simply stick at thevery end of the table shoot the things thay can see - and when your zombies would get close - he would use the unbrakabe element - 2x stanks , waraltar , and flagalants will charge them and hold them for the rest of the game ...

"They will hide behind terrrain on turn 1, position themselves out of xbow line of sight on turn 2 and charge on turn 3, though the bats will be charging turn 2, and one of the varghulfs will march in turn 2 to cause terror around his cannons and missile units."

And suppose the terrain is exaclty in the favour of emp player also ( so no one is at the base disadvantage ) - he has a hill 2 level one in the corner - he positions the Xbows in the / - \ manner so he can cover 360 inches positions the altar so he can charge all the thing that get behind the line , and 2 stanks to intercept the warghoulf ... remeber that steam can easly charge in any direction 12" if playing it safe and 15" if going for tops ... Also remember that only spell in the list that can effect the steam is gaze on nagash - count how many hits you would have to do to have it suffer one wound :)

andy10k
24-05-2008, 12:44
Before I ran my mouth about casting necromancy spells as often as I had dice, I decided to reread the rules, and halfway through flipping to the page, I remembered that only IoN, RD, and VHDM are Necro spells... then smacked myself in the forehead.

Unintentionally, I cheated. Yes, I cast 4 of them turn one from my Count, fueled by stones. That's going to make for an interesting discussion tomorrow afternoon (You call our gunlines cheesy but you had to cheat with VC magic!!!) I'll deserve the cheese wiz I get sprayed with :P

Lol yeah, got to watch out for people trying that one on you as well! As i think a lot of people are in the same belief as you were, that ALL the spells can be cast as many times as you like.

Akuma
24-05-2008, 13:04
Andy it is quite common to see van hales cast so many time it hits :D

andy10k
24-05-2008, 15:22
Andy it is quite common to see van hales cast so many time it hits :D

By the word "all" in my above post i meant Gaze/Curse/Wind/Horde couldn't be cast multiple times, i know the 3 necromancy spells can be spammed lol :P

Was just making sure that he knew not to let other people make the same mistake he did (spamming wind of undeath WOULD be sick).

Gharof von Carstein
24-05-2008, 15:33
is summoning a viable option against empire? I mean sure they'll probably shoot a lot off and summoning zombies will block that. Im a fairly new player so I dont know what's viable against empire.

I kinda want to know to. Im going to battle a empire with my VC soon. my problem is I dont know what to field against him. he is knight and artillery heavy (also a beginning player) I dont know if what he is fielding is wise but I can tell you ill be facing a busy shooting fase from him. whats the tactic here?

I have basically every VC unit except for the black coach to field. (dont really need it cuz the people I play seem to shun deploying a lot of casters)

thx already.

Sarael
25-05-2008, 07:50
"Also, where's your 3rd wizard with the ring? And where's your 100 infantry? he has 100 handgunners. Stank schmank, my blood knights would probably kill it on the charge, though I'd need all 10 to charge the same one at the same time. 32 S7 attacks..."

The third wizard would be a waste of points :) 2 are more then enought to stop the spells I just cant allow to happen

100 infantry ? - how would I ever place that on the table top ? Gunlienes can be valid and fun to play - thay are not always about the number of shoots but rather about the number of times i can get them to fire

I dont think you could get 10 knights in the contact with the stank thats one thing - and If you get Frenzied troops where you want - you once agin not playing opponents on your level - Seriously get better opponents - thay will not only teach you to play well but on top of that give much more fun playing games - aginst empire BK will never charge anything I dont want them to - because with frenzy aginst 3 units of skirmishers i can easly get them in contact with flaglants and then hit them with 2 stanks - also 10 KoBK is 550 pts without upgrades :)

I didn't say you were doing it wrong, I said that you were assuming that your list was the same as my friend's Empire list, and showing that they aren't. I might have exagerated on the number, but his 2k+ list just adds handgunners to his 2k list to bring his points up. I actually think it's 80 at 2250.

I can get my Frenzied KoBK exactly where I want them, because I have magic to move them, and they are screened by a huge flock of Felbats, which I can summon more of (in my normal list). 10 KOBK are less points than your 2 Stanks...

Flagellants fall to bits & pieces when confronted with vampiric cavalry. They only get their weapon bonus in the first round, and since I'm more likely to get the charge in, and my vampires/nightmares put out so many attacks on the front line, I'm VERY likely to wipe out the entire unit of nutters, much less wipe out the first rank...

Sure, I'm afraid of your cannons. Anyone with any sense would be. But unless you illegally overguess (and TBH it'd have to be pretty blatant, because you WILL have zombies/felbats in your face barring extreme luck and/or dispel scrolls) I probably won't have to worry too awful much about them.

Now 11" and I aren't the only ones thinking that everything would be going our way. 8 Disp dice aren't enough to stop the Cult of the Black Arts...

Sarael
25-05-2008, 07:54
Lol yeah, got to watch out for people trying that one on you as well! As i think a lot of people are in the same belief as you were, that ALL the spells can be cast as many times as you like.

I just wasn't thinking 3 weeks ago. In my defense, neither was anyone else, because no one called me on it :P I'm the only VC player around here though, and no one else has the book (rural area, 2 hours from a GW store). I'm sure I'll get ribbed for rematches this evening though. :P

Speaking of which...

Akuma
25-05-2008, 08:43
"his 2k+ list just adds handgunners to his 2k list to bring his points up. I actually think it's 80 at 2250."

So obviously you should take my advice on playing better opponents - handgunners are good only when you put hochland in there - any other time crossbowman are better - AND in addition - 40 is the greatest number you are ever going to be able to put on table so thay can effectivly support each other.

"I can get my Frenzied KoBK exactly where I want them, because I have magic to move them, and they are screened by a huge flock of Felbats, which I can summon more of (in my normal list). 10 KOBK are less points than your 2 Stanks..."

Great magic potential + Huge Flock of Fellbats + 10 KoBK ? - ok post your list here I must see how did you manage to squise in all that stuff together :D

"Flagellants fall to bits & pieces when confronted with vampiric cavalry. They only get their weapon bonus in the first round, and since I'm more likely to get the charge in, and my vampires/nightmares put out so many attacks on the front line, I'm VERY likely to wipe out the entire unit of nutters, much less wipe out the first rank..."

see - If you dont know how 5 flagalants will stall your KoBK for 2 rounds you arent playing right opponent - I'll give you a hint - the anwser is on the 81 in rulebook ;)

"Sure, I'm afraid of your cannons. Anyone with any sense would be. But unless you illegally overguess (and TBH it'd have to be pretty blatant, because you WILL have zombies/felbats in your face barring extreme luck and/or dispel scrolls) I probably won't have to worry too awful much about them."

Fellbats are small special unit - low T no AS - very easy to shoot down for empire - Zombies are nice - but you must use van hale to proppel them fowards - the only problem with that is having 12" range of the said spell - you can recast it ? Ok but mind that you have only 2dice from initial pool + dices from the mage to do that - Also you must random get it with your vampires ... Cannons will never bother to shoot zombies if thay are such targets on table as KoBK or varghoulfs :)

"Now 11" and I aren't the only ones thinking that everything would be going our way. 8 Disp dice aren't enough to stop the Cult of the Black Arts..."

I never ever said or thught that i will STOP your magic - I only said that 2 scrolls and 8 DD is more then enought to STOP crucial spells - I wont bother stoping even one IoN - you can cast it all you want - I will instead focus my dispell potential on spells that can realy cripple my battle plan.

But not to discuss on the dry side - post your 2250 list - My friend plays VC and he is wandering how did you get working 10 KoBK in this kind of points :)

EvC
26-05-2008, 14:16
And suppose the terrain is exaclty in the favour of emp player also ( so no one is at the base disadvantage ) - he has a hill 2 level one in the corner

Two of these on almost every table at the UKGT- eleveninches should bear this in mind. For some reason the Warhammer World guys seem to place enough terrain to give gunline and Wood Elf players everything they need...

Also LOL at the Prophet of Doom champion trick! One for the true WAACers that one, I did something similar at a tournament (at the UKGT venue in fact) yesterday, put my Black Knights + BSB within reach of Kroxigor to flank charge them, with the champ on the flank. Even warned my opponent that he'd only be able to kill the champion, he went in anyway and demanded to see the FAQ before he'd believe that he could only kill the Champ. Silly sausage...

Sarael
27-05-2008, 07:29
Any Krox which made it into contact with your champ should have still been able to make attacks against the RNF of the unit though, challenge or not.

Edit: I just read the FAQ. Unfortunately, you also lost combat by one (or more), and are flanked, and possibly outnumbered depending on how many Krox are there, so you lost another 2+...

That is just weird. That statement makes little sense, but the rules are the rules. I've never seen a unit sacrificed like this before, but I understand the Flagellants idea now. There you go Akuma, Flagellants have the potential to hold up KoBKs for more than the charge...

Which goes to show that Flagellants should still be rare units.

Snufflepants
27-05-2008, 09:52
i like it. i'm adopting similar horde tactics myself but if those ghouls get caught somewhere nasty that's your core gone cause no save. i recommend taking summon ghouls as a power to beef them up a bit but i'm not sure how the placement of power stones would go with this extra drain. i use skelies over ghouls. just a personal choice.

EvC
27-05-2008, 10:07
Any Krox which made it into contact with your champ should have still been able to make attacks against the RNF of the unit though, challenge or not.

Edit: I just read the FAQ. Unfortunately, you also lost combat by one (or more), and are flanked, and possibly outnumbered depending on how many Krox are there, so you lost another 2+...

You probably shouldn't be commenting on the rules when you clearly don't have a clue what you're on about. In the situation mentioned, the Krox had 1 CR for the kill and 1 for the flank. I had outnumber, standard and battle standard. It wasn't enough to make them run away, but it kept them from annihilating the whole unit... well, not in the first turn at least :D

eleveninches
28-05-2008, 08:13
i like it. i'm adopting similar horde tactics myself but if those ghouls get caught somewhere nasty that's your core gone cause no save. i recommend taking summon ghouls as a power to beef them up a bit but i'm not sure how the placement of power stones would go with this extra drain. i use skelies over ghouls. just a personal choice.
I do have this on the lord, just to increase the size of his unit if he feels as though it s going to get damaged in the following turn.

Alternative list:

455: Count (lv4, +2PD, dread knight, 3 power stones, cursed book, nightshroud)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
190: Vampire (+2PD, 2 power stones)
195: Vampire (+2PD, black periapt, helm of commandment)
88: 10 Ghouls (ghast)
80: 10 Ghouls
80: 10 Ghouls
64: 8 Wolves
40: 5 Wolves
435: 6 Blood Knights (standard, musician, flag of blood keep)
175: Varghulf
-------------
2001
-------------

SImilar tactics with the regular vamps, but send the lord out with the blood knights. 1+/4+ save, plus the ability to raise them back up, and summon zombie units from the lord along the way, raising them in the flank of the enemy and raising them up before charging them in in the following turn

Akuma
28-05-2008, 12:41
Ok where to start ...

455: Count (lv4, +2PD, dread knight, 3 power stones, cursed book, nightshroud)
Hmmm - 30 for 4 lvl ; 25 for Dread Knight ; 50 for 2PD = 105 pts ...

Either Vamp lord can take 105 pts in magic items or someone needs to realy think about his Avatar ...

Secundo - Who will summon ghouls ? or you are going to stick to those initial 30 you have and hide your vamps where exactly ? Zombis ? You cant ? wow ... So you will acctualy have to use ghouls for the whole game - And if by any chance - there is some hill and shooting troops on the hill and thay will kill your ghouls in where will you hide vampires then ?

Also do you know that you cant use those 2 dices form each and every vampire on anything alse other then IoN ? Because you simply only have one magic level - and another fun fact - you have to cast it in 12" of the vampire so stickig ghoul bunkers on the far end of the table wont work ...

Also dispell potential ... quite ... 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = hmmm 7 - no diss scrolls ? And what if you go aginst 50% of armys out there that have some kind of acces to lore that goes throught whole units ? - What will you stop that with ?

All in all to sum it up ... You dont have any means to deal with the fallowing setups ->

Gunline - lack of fellbats

VP Denial - nothing to catch them with - relativly easy to kill ghouls with magic missile AND then kill the vamps

CC rollers with flying creatures - Dragon with a prince on top comes to mind ...

I think you need to put more effort in list making - or at least try to play with it once and then post comments

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 08:18
Secundo - Who will summon ghouls ? or you are going to stick to those initial 30 you have and hide your vamps where exactly ? Zombis ? You cant ? wow ... So you will acctualy have to use ghouls for the whole game - And if by any chance - there is some hill and shooting troops on the hill and thay will kill your ghouls in where will you hide vampires then ?
3 lv1 vamps with +2 PD on each of them allows me to summon a LOT of zombies in front of them. And I reckon that most missile fire will be out of range of the ghouls, unless you happen to have 40" missile fire. The lord is not over his points limit. THe blood knights should run through enemy gunlines. The summonned zombies will be placed in front of my ghoul units in position to make it practically impossible for any dragonlords to charge. The blood knight unit can also take care of the anvil in the woods that I might encounter, and most gunlines will quake in fear of it. I need the blood knights to survive 1 round of shooting whilst I march and then dance macabre them into the enemys flank. Then in the next turn, only archers and warmachines from the gunline will be able to shoot at me, and I charge into the enemy flank in turn 2, suummoning back any casualties in the magic phase. Then pursue/overrun throughout their entire line unless they move and give up their ability to shoot.

Sarael
29-05-2008, 08:57
The Lord IS over his limit in bloodline points: count them. He's over by 5. You can give him Avatar instead of Dread Knight, and save 5 points there, but you'll have to spend 20 more on the nightmare (just means you'll lose 15 points somewhere, along with shield and barding).

I recommend you drop Knight/Avatar on the lord though, for Summon Ghouls. Also recommend his item loadout as Skull Staff and Helm, or Helm, Periapt, and WBH (Balefire Spike optional if you take a Nightmare).

Even with that many dispel dice, you'll REALLY need a scroll caddy, especially against High Elves, Slann, and Tzeentch.

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 09:10
Only if i go for the bloodknight list. Not if i go for the zombie horde list on page 1, as most of their damaging spells will be out of range

Akuma
29-05-2008, 09:30
3 lv1 vamps with +2 PD on each of them allows me to summon a LOT of zombies in front of them. And I reckon that most missile fire will be out of range of the ghouls, unless you happen to have 40" missile fire.

12" Dep zone + 30" = 42" so if you are 42" away from me then ... 42" - 12" ( IoN range ) = 30" thats the distance your zombies will have to come over to my troops ...

Blood knights going through anything ? One small unit ? With Frenzy ? - you realy are joking now

Varghoulf is the only second vampire ...

If you dont belive that gunline army - 4 cannons or bolt throwers will kill of Varghulf in 1 and BK in the other you are very wrong ...

Ok now for the rest - how ill you propel the troops foward ? With one cursed book or did you manage to think out that you will also RANDOMLY generate Van hales on all vampires ... If not you understand tha bound items can be disspled and any enemy wont even bother to dispell one of your sumon zombies spells ?

Do you care to elaborate on this 5 point over the limit - or you have selective perception ?


and I charge into the enemy flank in turn 2, suummoning back any casualties in the magic phase.

LoL - you arent realy playing any games do you ? To cast van hales you will have to be in 12" of the unit - so in the range of archers ... - you wont ever be able to summon zombies in a way that will deny things like LOC place to land - I can assure you

Seriously - go play take pictures post it as a battle rep - I dont have time to give advice to someone that doesnt have a clue about how the game is played and wont bother to anymore.

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 09:40
12" Dep zone + 30" = 42" so if you are 42" away from me then ... 42" - 12" ( IoN range ) = 30" thats the distance your zombies will have to come over to my troops ...My zombies arnt planning on going anywhere. They will just sit there and make all missile units incapable of doing anything.
Blood knights going through anything ? One small unit ? With Frenzy ? - you realy are joking now 6 Blood knights with 3 S7 attacks each, plus the lord. Plus the 12 S4 attacks from the bloodknight steeds, means that they are going to go through almost anything. Plus, the fact that I can raise back any casualties in the magic phase.

Ok now for the rest - how ill you propel the troops foward ? With one cursed book or did you manage to think out that you will also RANDOMLY generate Van hales on all vampires ... If not you understand tha bound items can be disspled and any enemy wont even bother to dispell one of your sumon zombies spells ? - you arent realy playing any games do you ? To cast van hales you will have to be in 12" of the unit - so in the range of archers ... - you wont ever be able to summon zombies in a way that will deny things like LoC place to land - I can assure you Im not planning on moving my zombie horde forward against a gunline. I'll just keep them out of range and wait for anything that feels like charging me. The Blood knights will have the lord cast vanhels on themselves several times in turn 1 just to get into position for charging the enemy in turn 2. If he has any dice left by the time he gets intoi combat, he will raise some zombies around him.

Loopstah
29-05-2008, 10:07
The Blood knights will have the lord cast vanhels on themselves several times in turn 1 just to get into position for charging the enemy in turn 2.

Except you missed the bit where you can't cast Vanhels on the same unit more than once a magic phase.

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 10:13
I didnt notice that bit. Vanhels is a necromancy spell, so should be able to be cast on the same unit more than once per phase.

Loopstah
29-05-2008, 10:19
I didnt notice that bit. Vanhels is a necromancy spell, so should be able to be cast on the same unit more than once per phase.

You would think so but at the bottom they snuck in "A unit may only move once per Magic Phase with Vanhel's Danse Macabre"

You still get the option to cast it on more than one unit per magic phase though.

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 10:23
Still, thats a 22" move in turn 1, allowing me to charge in turn 2.

BigRob
29-05-2008, 10:24
My zombies arnt planning on going anywhere. They will just sit there and make all missile units incapable of doing anything.6 Blood knights with 3 S7 attacks each, plus the lord. Plus the 12 S4 attacks from the bloodknight steeds, means that they are going to go through almost anything. Plus, the fact that I can raise back any casualties in the magic phase.
Im not planning on moving my zombie horde forward against a gunline. I'll just keep them out of range and wait for anything that feels like charging me. The Blood knights will have the lord cast vanhels on themselves several times in turn 1 just to get into position for charging the enemy in turn 2. If he has any dice left by the time he gets intoi combat, he will raise some zombies around him.

Hey, I like the idea of a huge surprise summon horde as much as the next guy but reading through your stratagy, firstly your comment about the bloodknights being your super hammer unit, people will suss that out and target them, especially if your zombies are not going anywhere. A cannon/helblaster/bolthrower will splat a couple at a time, then theres enemy magic (like High Elves or Lizardmen or even a lucky empire pleb wizard). With cheap redirction units to mock your frenzy your hammer wont be up to much without major support.

As regards keeping a huge line of zombies 30" away from my gunline, whats that going to accoplish, my cannons may be battering your bloodknighst but my helstorm/mortars have a range of greater than 30", my outriders can come forward a little and heck I'll even move my Crossbowmen up 8" to bring them back into range.

Maybe a more agressive approach?

BigRob
29-05-2008, 10:31
My zombies arnt planning on going anywhere. They will just sit there and make all missile units incapable of doing anything.6 Blood knights with 3 S7 attacks each, plus the lord. Plus the 12 S4 attacks from the bloodknight steeds, means that they are going to go through almost anything. Plus, the fact that I can raise back any casualties in the magic phase.
Im not planning on moving my zombie horde forward against a gunline. I'll just keep them out of range and wait for anything that feels like charging me. The Blood knights will have the lord cast vanhels on themselves several times in turn 1 just to get into position for charging the enemy in turn 2. If he has any dice left by the time he gets intoi combat, he will raise some zombies around him.

Hey, I like the idea of a huge surprise summon horde as much as the next guy but reading through your stratagy, firstly your comment about the bloodknights being your super hammer unit, people will suss that out and target them, especially if your zombies are not going anywhere. A cannon/helblaster/bolthrower will splat a couple at a time, then theres enemy magic (like High Elves or Lizardmen or even a lucky empire pleb wizard). With cheap redirction units to mock your frenzy your hammer wont be up to much without major support.

As regards keeping a huge line of zombies 30" away from my gunline, whats that going to accoplish, my cannons may be battering your bloodknighst but my helstorm/mortars have a range of greater than 30", my outriders can come forward a little and heck I'll even move my Crossbowmen up 8" to bring them back into range.

Maybe a more agressive approach?

Kerill
29-05-2008, 10:39
Blood knights are target number one for a raping by everything your opponent has. I also think any first turn magic strategy s risky, your opponent has DD and scrolls just to prevent this kind of thing.

If your blood knights are fully screened by bats/wolves, they can't charge anything round 2. If they aren't screened they will likely be baited by something fast or cut to pieced by magic or war machines (even with the flag of blood keep).

Also your opponent can simply choose to flee the blood knight charge leaving you in a bad position or make it so you can only charge one unit so they can prepare the flank charges. In your army they are more or less unsupported, they hit like a ton of bricks its true but sending them off charging ahead is a bad plan IMO since they are likely to get shafted. Still if it works for you, go ahead...

therisnosaurus
29-05-2008, 11:00
I've been planning a similar list, so I'll list that while pointing out weaknesses in yours

Lord: +2pd, +1 level, lord of ghouls, book of arkhan, helm of command, nightshroud, sword of might (not sure if he can take the sword, if not oh well)

>> if you're going to take a casting lord you may as well give him a bound and the helm as well, especially the latter. it'll give one of your sub-par combat units a significant boost

Vamp: BSB, walking death, ghoulkin, flayed hauberk, black periapt.

>> BSB is very useful in a summoner army, reducing casualties your weak units suffer when pounded. Not a frontline guy, he can help with countercharges or bodyguard the general. periapt in there for armies with little magic to sqeeze out those extra summons. given the entire army is ghouls, he effectively gives your forces a free march before the game

Vamp: hellsteed, balefire spike, wristbands (or zombie scepter, if you're confident with your dodging) extra level, summon creatures

>> supports fellbats, adding to them and providing some muscle in combat for cleaning out war machine crews. Can also clean up treemen, with attacks that hit on 3's wound on 3's and, do double wounds with no saves :D. if he has the scepter he can seriously screw around with a backline, a lucky 4 casts of 10+ zombies can ruin a game plan right there.

Necro: Rod of flaming death:

>>an extra bound and summon cast, plus that critical dispel dice that gets you to 7, enough to hold out without scrolls (you can consider saccing a power dice to get it up to 8) Goes in a front line ghoul unit and scares enemies with his rod. hehe. rod.


core:

3 corpse carts+ loadstones

>> the true power behind magic domination and the reason this army can survive on ghouls alone. hard to kill, +1 to all your summons will stack up and of course, those all important 2-3 sapped dispel dice come crunch time. trust me, ASFing ws 7 ghouls at is no fun for anyone. except you. lots of fun for you.

24 ghouls
12 ghouls

>> ranks of 7. 18 unit stands in front of 12 unit, general and BSB go in 12 unit near the middle. aim to get front unit to 35 and back unit to 20, once you have this, park the back unit right up against the ass of the front unit, then nothing barring cannon sniping and sneaky magic can touch your general and BSB. anything else has to get through 35 ws 7 ghouls. that come back. lots.

3-5 units of 10-12 ghouls:

>>supplements and summoning seeds, use first turn rush to threaten war machines, archers, support units and the like. once you've gotten your big units pumped, these should get priority and start making them 20 or so strong. if one is engaged and doesn't bite it, instantly crank out the summons and beef it up.


special:

2 units of 3 fellbats. (3 if you can afford it). hide them with your steed vamp for the first turn or two untill each unit is up to 6-7 (keep a corpse cart nearby if you feel the need). once this is done then fly out and cause havoc. Eat machines, flank units, frighten small cavalry blocks off in concert with the vamp, go after mages, generally make a mess of stuff. these will probably win you the game

Rare:
as many wraiths as you have points left for.

>> seriously. Don't bother with banshees. Keep these in reserve unless they have absolutely nothing to fear, don't let em give up their points. wait for a big unit to get into combat then flank with these guys, go after light cav or small blocks of heavy cav (great fun against dragon princes) you can even annoy magic weapon lacking dragon riders with these guys. Fun for the whole adams family



and that's it. now for the really important bit. casting order (psychological hint, lay out all your spell dice first, bound spells seperate and carefully let your opponent know what the bound spells are, great for making them careful about tossing out dispels so you can get more summons on.

order:
aim to have one unit capable of a vanhel's charge within range of your lord at all times

aim to have corpse carts near any unit that will be summoned into at all times

1: rod of flaming death. Hopefully pull a dispel dice or two (one in likelyhood)
2: 1 corpse cart. if he bites, use another one, if not, leave it and wait for the end. you don't NEED these off, you just want to suck dice.
3: necro and BSB. if a unit is under full strength, summon some back on one dice each. if not, raise a zombie unit or two for lulz.
4: lord, 6x summon ghouls on one dice. aim to get your big units un mushable first and then beef up the seed units as quickly as possible.if somehow every ghoul unit in range is topping out at 35 ghouls, feel fee to cast something else :P)
5: steed vamp 2x one dice summons into fell bats.
6: depending on how successful your above summons were, use pool dice to summon more ghouls or bats. more likely the latter, if no ghoul units are under immediate serious threat.
7: remaining corpse carts if you have them. hopefully he panicked and ate all his dice on the summons (and failed half of them :P) you get your ASF, he starts to cry
8: book of arkhan. the nail in the coffin, screw around with his plan, impel some zombies into a flank, charge his cav with your ghouls. If he saved one (or even better, two) dice for this because of the unit threatening to charge, great, you probably just got another ten odd ghouls or bats. you can have your charge, I don't care :P, watch his knights utterly fail to get through that many on the charge and then get smooshed next turn.

I must stress the AIM of this style of casting is to force him to use single dispel dice on each cast, of which you should have 17, 10 of which have +1 so you're at a distinct advantage. this makes his scrolls more or less useless, so your 1 caddy army will get WASTED, even those with 6 dice will have difficulty. it also utterly eliminates miscasts, a huge bonus.

as far as strats go, remember you want small units that you can bulk up, as even if these get pasted they're only worth tiny points. Oh, you just killed my 50 man unit of ghouls? that's... uh, 80 points.... happy?

three stages- underestimate (make them think they can roll over you), intimidate (holy **** that unit just got big) and overwhelm (that's how many ghouls I have to kill through before you flank me? )

eleveninches
29-05-2008, 12:12
About the blood knight list, first of all, I will be moving 22" in turn one, so I will almost certainly be able to flank the enemy line in turn 2. This means that I can redirect if they flee from my charge. Also, frenzy is not as baitable as it used to be, as in 7th edition you get to choose who you charge, so its not always the closest unit. Wad save from shooting will help, and it only needs to withstand 1 round of shooting. Then when in combat, I can raise the bloodknights back and start getting some zombies in the rear of the enemy units. Either that army or the one on page one of this thread. Which do you think would work best?

EvC
29-05-2008, 14:38
I think you'll have a lot of trouble with the Blood Knight plan. All the enemy has to do is move a little unit of fast cav or Skirmishers up to the Knights (so that you can't wheel around them) when you've zoomed them forwards, and you'll be going where the enemy decides. And then he'll blast your unit to pieces if he any shooting. What do you do against two Organ Guns? What happens if you've been Anvilled and slowed down? If you're ready to roll the flank, then you're also vulnerable to flank shots from cannons. if two Blood Knights die, you lose Look out sir!

All in all... go for the first approach. A lot comfier, I think :)

eleveninches
30-05-2008, 08:26
Yup, I definately prefer the first (infantry) list for tournaments, but it would be far too boring to use in my local GW store every week, and would be no fun for me or my opponant.

I was wondering how well a 2x blood knight army would work.

Count lv4 (+2PD, red fury, nightshroud, cursed book, 3xpowerstones)
Vamp BSB (barded steed, +2PD, drakenhoff banner)
Vamp (lv2, summon ghouls, Rod of Flaming Death OR 2xpowerstones)
10 Ghouls
10 Ghouls
10 Ghouls
6 Blood Knights (standard, musician, royal banner of strigoi)
6 Blood Knights (standard, musician, flag of blood keep)

Would this work? Mobile summoning army (to get to summon zombies all over the battlefield instead of in a single solid brick) and one unit of blood knights on each flank. Or would it be too small?

andy10k
30-05-2008, 15:18
That list is pretty good, though as before the same problems arise.

You need wolves/bats to screen/tunnel view the BK's so that they don't get led off around the board. Also with 2 units of BK's you will probably not be raising that many zombies as the enemy will be pounding away at them, so you're dice will be funnelled into spam healing them i bet :P

I like this list a lot more though, there is actually something to it, and gives you a game as well, the summoning zombie list wouldn't be too exciting for you to play tbh :(

BigRob
31-05-2008, 07:15
I'm just not getting it 11.

You say that your spamming dice into summoning, then using van hels to move your units forward while all your vampires hide at the very back edge of the board in the terrain that will hopefully be there (like woods) right?

Firstly, what if you miscast? I mean thats the plan gone right there.

Secondly what if you fight Ogres, Beastmen, anyone with the ability to get a unit on the back of the board that will have serious consequences for your vampires? Gorgers/Ambush/Miners etc

Third, how can you cope against cube of darkness, Hellheart, Dispel scroll things that destroy spells etc or end the magic phase?

Forth, Good shooting phase wipes out bloodknights/bats/wolves etc early on leaving you with nothing but zombies to battle with. If your just going to sit at the back constantly raising you'll soon find yourself short of willing opponents. There was a M:TG player at my local RPG club who built a deck that just gave him near unlimited life with no real offense. If you blocked out the 2 or 3 big hitters he had he just sat there doing nothing. Very boring.


Your plan seems a bit theoryhammer since your saying that you going to get all your spells off, your oppoent wont dispel anything and the terrain set up will go your way, I could say "Well my wizard casts comet of cassandora, anhiallates all your zombies and bats and wolves in one go" it doesnt always work out the way you might think.

Its certainly a good idea and will maybe catch people out who have brought along a ballanced army, but i'd imagine each army book could produce something as horrible to counter it

Good Luck

eleveninches
02-06-2008, 08:52
Firstly, what if you miscast? I mean thats the plan gone right there.

Secondly what if you fight Ogres, Beastmen, anyone with the ability to get a unit on the back of the board that will have serious consequences for your vampires? Gorgers/Ambush/Miners etc

Third, how can you cope against cube of darkness, Hellheart, Dispel scroll things that destroy spells etc or end the magic phase?I dont see how I will be miscasting on 1-dice invokations or 2-dice vanhels. The ghoul units will be literally on the back of the board, so there will be no space for the ambushers to come onto the board behind them. Dispel Scrolls wont bother me for most of my spells except for the cavalry list.
[qupte]Your plan seems a bit theoryhammer since your saying that you going to get all your spells off, your oppoent wont dispel anything and the terrain set up will go your way[/quote]I never said i would get all my spells off. I was working under the assumption that I would get half of all my invokations off and only a few of them would be dispelled. I will get a few of my spells off anyway. And I never said that the terrain was exactly as I wanted it, but again I was working under the assumpion that most boards I will play on will have at least one wood on the board, which most of them do.
Good shooting phase wipes out bloodknights/bats/wolves etc early on leaving you with nothing but zombies to battle with. If your just going to sit at the back constantly raising you'll soon find yourself short of willing opponentsThat would be a GOOD shooting phase to wipe out all of the knights in the cavalry list. And the infantry list is NOT for regular gaming. I wouldnt use it in my local gaming club because it is just no fun at all for anyone, but I was considering taking it to the GT. Either the infantry list on page 1, a daemon army or a dwarf gunline.

Elkantaar
02-06-2008, 11:12
Interesting tactic 11....maybe not the 'normal' way to play VC, but actually something close to how i picture a shambling undead horde fluff wise...all the reading on undead tells of 'huge unstoppable hordes....'

I've been trying to think how i'd play it using my DElves....struggling to be honest apart from the aforementioned flying unit(s). Not sure if multiple small units of witch elves would go through the zombies quick enough, even with frenzy!!

Then again i'm not a tournament player by any means...so perhaps i'm just intrigued by the idea

EvC
02-06-2008, 11:47
One Spirit of the Forge and one unit of Blood Knights will be destroyed instantly (The Blood Keep Banner unit might survive one shot). No scrolls and 6 dispel dice make this an eventuality (Unless you play me, in which case I'll just miscast every time until the spell is wiped from my Mage's memory, grumble grumble). Also note you can't have Dark Acolyte, MoBA and Red Fury on one Vampire Lord, that's too many points in bloodlines.

So, magic-heavy lists will destroy the army with ease, as will most Daemon lists. Imagine fighting Teclis: turn one he destroys your Lord's Invocation of Nehek then melts your Blood Knights. Turn two he melts half the next unit. Meanwhile four Bolt Throwers destroy a unit a turn. It's not sounding good...

eleveninches
03-06-2008, 11:11
Thats why im not going for the blood knight list, but will stick to the infantry list

fubukii
03-06-2008, 17:21
11 just a simple question if your ghoul units with chars are hugging the back of the board how are your zombies getting into combats and the such? Most people arent gonna move towards a army with 0 shooting, and if your hugging the back of the board none of your offensive magic except wind of undeath will be in range, and thats hardly enough to kill units.

eleveninches
09-06-2008, 11:38
Its going to be a defensive army, not an offensive one. The zombie screen prevents anything from killing my charachters, and then the varghulfs and bats go off and pick off small units

][nquist0r
09-06-2008, 18:31
1st off, its been almost a month since your first post, and your still only playing theory hammer. Why dont you try actually playing this list then making changes? (If you have the army in question)

2nd, Man I would love to play this with my tzeeentch Doombull list, if only to see your expression when I start trying indigo fire as many times as my 4 sorcerers can do it with 13-15 power dice. 400 zombies? Hell that could be 200 tzeentch bestigors with 1 successful casting (giving up no points if defeated) but effectively tarpitting your tarpit. Good times.