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AdmiralDick
29-04-2008, 14:41
one of the few codexes that i don't own is the Necron one (i can never find it at a price i like the look of) and so there are a few things that i'm not entirely clear on. we know for sure that the Necrons and C'tan have no 'shadow-selves' and therefore have no Warp presence. this puts them at odds with the forces of the warp and specifically with the Chaos Gods, who are made of such stuff. but what i don't get is how they do stuff, because nearly every other system in the 40kiverse requires Warp energy at some stage.

1) how do Necrons teleport from the battlefield when they 'phase out' and how does a Monolith allow troops to be transported, if it doesn't litereally carry them into battle?

2) are Necron spaceships capable of faster than light travel as they cannot enter the Warp?

3) is everything about the Necrons 'non-magical' (i.e. it is purely a super sophisticated physical system, rather than an esoteric) or are the C'tan able to exert some force that is not purely physical (like the Chaos Gods can, but not using Warp energy)?

4) what is it that the C'tan want with 'people' if not their 'shadow-self'/souls?

5) how do the C'tan assume their forms without the use of magic? and what are their bodies made of?

Champsguy
29-04-2008, 14:47
All Necron tech works purely in the physical realm. They do not use the warp for anything. No "magic", just raw tech.

Mercer
29-04-2008, 15:17
1. Necrons use there own teleporting technology to bring troops to the battlefield, they utilize Monoliths like gateways from there Tomb Worlds. The exact technology I'm not sure on.

2. Necron space craft are faster than light and use there own faster than light tech. Its name escapes me at the moment.

3. Everything regarding the Necrons is technology. Necrontyr in there short, painful lifes were brilliant scientists and at the time, and still now have the more advanced technology in the galaxy.

4. Its there life energy I believe. Not there soul what most people think. The Necrons are mindless slaves which harvest living beings for the C'Tan.

5. The C'Tan were contacted by the Necrontyr via a Star Bridge, and the Necrontyr gave them phyiscal bodies in the form of Necrodermies. No information is available about the star bridge.

Mercer

vlorlich
29-04-2008, 15:23
one of the few codexes that i don't own is the Necron one (i can never find it at a price i like the look of) and so there are a few things that i'm not entirely clear on. we know for sure that the Necrons and C'tan have no 'shadow-selves' and therefore have no Warp presence. this puts them at odds with the forces of the warp and specifically with the Chaos Gods, who are made of such stuff. but what i don't get is how they do stuff, because nearly every other system in the 40kiverse requires Warp energy at some stage.

I don't think I get what your asking here. From what I recall, and I could be a bit off on this, but... There is the Material Universe and there is the Warp. Most people use the Warp to assist in traveling great distances but they do so by entering the Warp. I am not sure on the particulars of how its done. I know that the Imperial ships have a Gellar Field ? that protects them from the raw energy of the Warp while they pass through. From what I have read its almost a point and shoot sort of travel... sometimes they hit their intended destination and sometimes... they miss.

The Tau do not use Warp Travel... well not like the Imperium does. I think they kinda skip along the edges of it so to speak.

Anyhow... the Material Universe and the Warp are separate entities which are both accessible to each other. One is rules by natural laws (40K/GW ones) and one is ruled by the Warp (Chaos/Magic... whatever).

I will get to Necrons here in a second.



1) how do Necrons teleport from the battlefield when they 'phase out' and how does a Monolith allow troops to be transported, if it doesn't litereally carry them into battle?

Its been a bit since I read my Necron Codex but I believe that they travel via some shadow dimension that sits between the Material Universe and the Warp. If you read the Apoc book, they make reference to how the Tombs are not just holes in the ground but house great portals to these dimensions where they house their war machine. Its a technology thing though... not a magical or warp control portal. The Necrontyr where masters of technology back in their day and the C'tan are masters of the Material Universe. If you read in their description it talks about their control of Natural Law.


2) are Necron spaceships capable of faster than light travel as they cannot enter the Warp?

Same as above... I would imagine. Again this could be conjecture on my part cause its been a while since I read and discussed this... and sometimes the sources tend to mix in my head (I am getting old). I would imagine that their ships utilize the same level of technology that the rest of their race does.


3) is everything about the Necrons 'non-magical' (i.e. it is purely a super sophisticated physical system, rather than an esoteric) or are the C'tan able to exert some force that is not purely physical (like the Chaos Gods can, but not using Warp energy)?

From what I have read... everything about the Necrons is purely technological. So far ahead of any race that it borders on the magical. The entry in the codex about the Ctan state something about their control of natural laws. I don't have it on me right now to quote.


4) what is it that the C'tan want with 'people' if not their 'shadow-self'/souls?

This I am not sure on... they consume their life force but not their souls... I think. Its possible they gain some sort of sustenance when they consume/kill someone. It has been suggested that all the Necron Weaponry... the Gauss weapons double as harvesters as well. The Gauss weapons consume/burn/destroy the target... its possible that there is some place that all this is funneled to.


5) how do the C'tan assume their forms without the use of magic? and what are their bodies made of?

Bodies are made of Necrodermis? Living Metal. I think a good visual example of this would be from the third Terminator Movie, the terminator that was sent back was made up of some very tough liquid metal stuff. In the Codex, the Necrontyr went to the Ctan and offered the Necrodermis as a place for the Ctan to inhabit. Prior to this they were just beings of energy I believe that fed on stars.

Anyhow... hope that answers your questions. I could be wrong on some of this as I don't have the material right in front of me and I am getting old(as my wife says alot now to me!).

Megad00mer
29-04-2008, 15:31
1/2/3) The Apocalypse Book explains how the Necrons may have no power over the Warp, but there are numerous other dimensions and aspects of the universe that only they truly understand. It's these they use to teleport troops, create fields of "null energy" and travel through space among other things.

Necron technology is amazingly advanced and far beyond the understanding of the younger races, even the Eldar.

4) C'tan feed upon the bio-electric energy a living body produces. Their goal is a galaxy in which all living beings are used as cattle for them to feed upon.

5) The C'tan's physical bodies are made of Necrodermis. The same Living Metal that Necron ships, vehicles and even the Necrons themselves are made of. Without the Necrodermis "shell" a C'tan is a massive being of pure energy, literally light years across. In their pure form they are unable to really affect the world around them, or experience things so they take physical form using Necrodermis. When a C'tan's body is destroyed, it's energy returns to a Tomb complex and a new Necrodermis shell is created for it.

Obliterati
29-04-2008, 16:03
are Necron spaceships capable of faster than light travel as they cannot enter the Warp?

The Necrons don't need the Warp. They use an Inertialess Drive on their ships. This engine (or force field, or whatever) reduces the apparent mass of the Necron ship to zero, allowing it to travel at FTL* speeds without suffering from the usual time-dilation effects and infinite energy curves.





*Actually, objects with zero mass are compelled to travel at exactly the speed of light, so to go faster than light they'd need to reduce their mass to an imaginary number...but that's an instant migraine, so we'll just go with the Rule of Cool

ViperMagnum357
29-04-2008, 16:27
Already explained-inertialess drive for FTL travel, tap into and use other dimensions apart from the warp, and a fair amount of Time technology in the form of stasis fields-their technology is so far beyond humanity it is like comparing Eldar to stone age humans- 60 million years ago, the technology of the Necrontyr surpassed the Old Ones by a noticable margin-the only reason the Old Ones were winning was because of their mastery of the warp.

El_Machinae
29-04-2008, 20:06
I tend to look at the Necrons as a representation of the peak ability of natural technology in 40k. I think that their abilities are woefully short of what we can actually accomplish with technology, but we don't live in the 40k universe!

Kandarin
29-04-2008, 20:40
Basically, they run on pure, unadulterated handwaving.

vlorlich
29-04-2008, 21:00
Basically, they run on pure, unadulterated handwaving.

LOL!! Awesome

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-04-2008, 21:57
Basically, they run on pure, unadulterated handwaving.

Quoted for truth.

azimaith
29-04-2008, 22:08
one of the few codexes that i don't own is the Necron one (i can never find it at a price i like the look of) and so there are a few things that i'm not entirely clear on. we know for sure that the Necrons and C'tan have no 'shadow-selves' and therefore have no Warp presence.

Actually we don't know that. Its never specified and never inferred that they do. The warp is anathema to them. Anathema is a noun, it is something that is hated, loathed, or consigned to destruction. Thus the warp is the thing that is hated/loated ect, not the c'tan.



this puts them at odds with the forces of the warp and specifically with the Chaos Gods, who are made of such stuff. but what i don't get is how they do stuff, because nearly every other system in the 40kiverse requires Warp energy at some stage.

Not necessarily. The tau operate fine without much warp tech (none beyond their travel which is very basic from what I know).



1) how do Necrons teleport from the battlefield when they 'phase out' and how does a Monolith allow troops to be transported, if it doesn't litereally carry them into battle?

Unknown. It consistently specifies that they were masters of space time and it specifies in the apocalypse book that necrons utilize dimensions as of yet, are unknown to other races. (For example in tomb complexes). What these dimensions are used for is unspecified. Phase may transport them through this dimension (A guess).



2) are Necron spaceships capable of faster than light travel as they cannot enter the Warp?

A probable yes through inference. In fact Imperial sensors can't even pick up necron craft moving at high speeds until they begin to slow down. (They appear well within sensor range). Descriptively their ships are said to "be able to cross the universe in a blink of an eye". How accurate that is unknown. I think its safe to say they're really really fast. Beyond that we have supporting evidence for necron ship speed. For example a small group of cruisers (I believe it was 3 of them, but possibly 5) managed to penetrate the defenses of Mars and one even managed to touch the ground (whether in a flaming heap, crashing, or actually landing is not specified) before being vaporized. I think it is unlikely (in my opinion) that necron cruisers would endure the defenses of mars moving at speeds slow enough to be really *hit*.



3) is everything about the Necrons 'non-magical' (i.e. it is purely a super sophisticated physical system, rather than an esoteric) or are the C'tan able to exert some force that is not purely physical (like the Chaos Gods can, but not using Warp energy)?

No, theres quite a bit of "magic" to the c'tan. They are described as defying natural law and altering the very fabric of reality which in and of itself would be as magical as conjuring lightning or spewing out daemon fire. C'tan are specified to warp reality to varying degrees so theres definately some "magic" (though not necessarily warp magic) to them.



4) what is it that the C'tan want with 'people' if not their 'shadow-self'/souls?

C'tan eat electromagnetic energies. It turns out that when their senses were magnified and constrained by their traverse into the necrodermis they found the energies of living beings delicious. Even more so they find specific states of mortal bodies more delicious than others. For example the Nightbringer enjoys the taste of mortal "essence" when they stricken with terror, while the deciever states that Polymorphine (drugs used by Callidus assassins to change their shape) grants them a different flavor. Beyond that it is unlikely the c'tan only eat electromagnetic energies as images of them "eating" people often end with flesh and water reduced to nothing and shriveled sacks of bones collapsing to the ground. Whether they actually eat some mystical "life essence" or they convert matter into energy then eat it is unknown.



5) how do the C'tan assume their forms without the use of magic? and what are their bodies made of?
Their bodies, as in their real bodies, are massive collections of energy and their mind spans areas of space greater than planets. On the table top we see them in the necrodermis, a living metal proxy body that they utilize.

CELS
30-04-2008, 01:02
Basically, they run on pure, unadulterated handwaving.

I'm going to quote this a third time, because it's just the perfect answer to this thread.

With the Necrons and the C'tan, GW basically threw big steaming piles of handwavium into the 40k universe. For one thing, the C'tan consume life force but not souls. No one knows what this "life force" is, but apparenty they have to get it by eating aliens, because if the Nightbringer just had a big cattle ranch, it would go against his image. On the other hand, we don't know for sure that the Outsider's Dyson Sphere isn't just a huge cattle ranch. Could be why he never goes outside.

And then there's the "phase dimension". There's the Matterium, and there's the Warp and there's.... this. What we know about the "phase space" is that... erm... things can go there... and.... come back. That's... pretty much all we know.

Necron ships don't use "phase space" to travel, they just go faster than the speed of light. Of course, if they get into trouble, they can just drop out of real space and disappear into phase space in order to escape unharmed. And now some of you might ask "Well, why don't they just use that trick all the time and teleport their ships wherever they want to go instead of using faster-than-light travel? Why can the Necron ships teleport out of combat but not into combat?"

The answer, I suppose, is that the Necron ships only have a limited amount of handwavium onboard.

PS: On a more serious note, Necrons do use warp tech. Their Tombships are equipped with a weapon that emits a psychic shockwave. And don't ask how it works ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-04-2008, 01:05
Basically, they run on pure, unadulterated handwaving.

And I shall quote it a fourth time so as to beg to use it in my sig, though that will undoubtedly gain me a warning for a long sig if I keep doing it. :D

azazel_fallenangel
30-04-2008, 10:34
...but apparenty they have to get it by eating aliens, because if the Nightbringer just had a big cattle ranch, it would go against his image. On the other hand, we don't know for sure that the Outsider's Dyson Sphere isn't just a huge cattle ranch. Could be why he never goes outside...

I think that the whole universe, as far as the C'Tan are concerned, is the cattle ranch, we just happen to fight back occasionly. You think all the cows go to the abbatior peacefully, there is bound to be some struggling involved.

El_Machinae
30-04-2008, 12:09
I've never had a problem with their eating lifeforce. Our tastebuds enjoy certain combinations of chemicals and textures. Their 'tastebuds' enjoy certain emotions as well as the chemicals and textures. Heck, their technological prowess allows a transfer of consciousness, and emotions DO have a materialistic basis (as well as the spiritual component in 40k). They just enjoy the materialistic arrangements. Emotions could be a type of texture.

ViperMagnum357
30-04-2008, 14:45
Again, their ships' inertia-less drive allows their ships to accelerate instantly and infinitely-seems a good deal of their ship tech is based around controlling their ships during this period, and it is strongly suggested that they bend space/time to prevent their ships from being torn apart or powering through a star on the way to wherever they are going.:rolleyes: The whole phasing into another dimension seemingly unknown to other races is unsettling, and the necrons seem to have a good deal of mastery over it, able to quickly phase across tomb worlds in different star systems.:wtf: As for the C'tan, it seems they can feed on virtually any kind of energy, but prefer if their food screams.:(

ryng_sting
30-04-2008, 17:05
C'tan feed on the electromagnetism generated by a living organism. The shadow-self, warp-self, or 'soul', is stated as being distinct from this.

aximand
01-05-2008, 02:29
C'tan are the Vampire Counts of 40k,they are vampiric energy beings that feed on stars.
If i remember quite well canon says that the Necrontir lived in a nocturnal world bathed in twilight from a sick sun,when they tried to see what kills their sun they discovered the C'tan.(eating their star that is...)
The necrontir are "blunts" ie warp means nadda to them and so they cant control it...it is also said that the necrontir planted the "pariah" gene to the human genepool when humanity were still living on trees and thats why there are blunt humans now(i mean then-40k)
Blunts are supposed to be the future of necron tech,spawning the all known pariahs.
Necron tech is the most advanced in the known galaxy and when they fully awaken we'll be in trouble.they can travel through space without warp tech but i think their ships are not as fast as the warp engined ships of the eldar or the imperium,still they move faster when in real space.Eldar are supposed to have beaten the necrontir before the fall just because the moved faster using the warp and the webway.
Necrodermis is living ,self repaired metal(T2 style without the cartoon relief)that the necrontir used to give a physical form to the C'tan,then they were fooled to use it on themselves because the C'tan found flesh to be rather tastier than stars(?).
fwehhh!thats all i can remember ,i maybe quite wrong here and there ,sorry!
cheers!

azimaith
01-05-2008, 04:21
C'tan are the Vampire Counts of 40k,they are vampiric energy beings that feed on stars.

They're not really vampiric. They just eat electromagnetism in the same way we might eat meat.



If i remember quite well canon says that the Necrontir lived in a nocturnal world bathed in twilight from a sick sun,when they tried to see what kills their sun they discovered the C'tan.(eating their star that is...)

Doesn't say anything about it being noctrunal, merely that it was under a star that had a c'tan eating it, the nightbringer specifically.



The necrontir are "blunts" ie warp means nadda to them and so they cant control it...it is also said that the necrontir planted the "pariah" gene to the human genepool when humanity were still living on trees and thats why there are blunt humans now(i mean then-40k)

It is never indicated in any way, shape, or form that the necrontyr were blunts. Due to their pursuit of science we can infer they had little aptitude for the warp, not the same thing as being a null/pariah or even a blunt.



Blunts are supposed to be the future of necron tech,spawning the all known pariahs.

Actually pariahs are supposed to be the future of necron tech, not nulls in and of themselves.



Necron tech is the most advanced in the known galaxy and when they fully awaken we'll be in trouble.they can travel through space without warp tech but i think their ships are not as fast as the warp engined ships of the eldar or the imperium,still they move faster when in real space.Eldar are supposed to have beaten the necrontir before the fall just because the moved faster using the warp and the webway.

Actually they're supposed to be faster than warp travel which is why they were finally able to crush the old ones who used to just run away into the web way to evade them. The eldar never beat the necrontyr, (they were all dead) nor did they defeat the necrons. It came to a point where the tide could well turn and the war could be won but then the enslavers burst from the warp and started killing off everything living.



Necrodermis is living ,self repaired metal(T2 style without the cartoon relief)that the necrontir used to give a physical form to the C'tan,then they were fooled to use it on themselves because the C'tan found flesh to be rather tastier than stars(?).
fwehhh!thats all i can remember ,i maybe quite wrong here and there ,sorry!
cheers!
They found the "focused trickles of energy leaking from mortal bodies" tastier. Not flesh.

AdmiralDick
11-05-2008, 16:06
okay, here is another question that occured to me. why do the Necrons serve the C'tan? as far as i can tell the C'tan offer the Necrons next to nothing, but demand everything in return. presumably the C'tan cannot (or will not) feed off them, so they need not try and appease them with gifts of 'food'. and as the C'tan are not magic in anyway, they cannot hope to be everywhere at all times, meaning that even if they were just tyranical rulers of the Necrons, the Necrons could organise to overthrow them without any fear of being discovered.

so to some extent the Necrons must be remote controlled by the C'tan. but how does a C'tan remote control a Necron (or a hundred thousand Necrons similtaniously) without the aid of magic?

Sekhmet
11-05-2008, 16:42
*Actually, objects with zero mass are compelled to travel at exactly the speed of light, so to go faster than light they'd need to reduce their mass to an imaginary number...but that's an instant migraine, so we'll just go with the Rule of Cool

Or negative mass. Doesn't have to be the square root of -1 to destroy relativity.


okay, here is another question that occured to me. why do the Necrons serve the C'tan? as far as i can tell the C'tan offer the Necrons next to nothing, but demand everything in return. presumably the C'tan cannot (or will not) feed off them, so they need not try and appease them with gifts of 'food'. and as the C'tan are not magic in anyway, they cannot hope to be everywhere at all times, meaning that even if they were just tyranical rulers of the Necrons, the Necrons could organise to overthrow them without any fear of being discovered.

They "control" the Necrons because they're their gods. And as far as you can tell, C'tan offer Necrons next to nothing. "As far as you can tell." The C'tan gave the Necrontyr immortality, revenge against the Old Ones, and utter domination of the universe.




so to some extent the Necrons must be remote controlled by the C'tan. but how does a C'tan remote control a Necron (or a hundred thousand Necrons similtaniously) without the aid of magic?

They're not directly controlled by the C'tan in any shape or form. The C'tan do not fall in the Necron chain of command except at the very very top level, where the highly intelligent Lords also fall. The C'tan tell the Lords what to do. The Lords tell Lords under them what to do, etc etc etc. You don't see a President or Prime Minister in the real world going to every single soldier on the battle field and giving them individual orders, do you?

Warlord Gnashgrod
11-05-2008, 18:49
Well the necrons no longer really have minds anymore, that's why they're easily controlled by the C'tan. Personally, that's the thing I hate the most about the Necron army; the fact that there is no personality to it. If the writers hadn't done that to the Necrons, the story possibilities could've been endless.

Sekhmet
11-05-2008, 19:08
Well the necrons no longer really have minds anymore, that's why they're easily controlled by the C'tan. Personally, that's the thing I hate the most about the Necron army; the fact that there is no personality to it. If the writers hadn't done that to the Necrons, the story possibilities could've been endless.

They do have minds.

Read the results of the Medusa campaign or Xenology for reference.

Warlord Gnashgrod
11-05-2008, 20:00
They have minds? Maybe, but the have no free will, no initiative, no desires except to obey the C'tan and kill all living things. They could just as well have no minds. They are zombie-like slaves. THAT'S what they are.

Sekhmet
11-05-2008, 21:21
They have minds? Maybe, but the have no free will, no initiative, no desires except to obey the C'tan and kill all living things. They could just as well have no minds. They are zombie-like slaves. THAT'S what they are.

Again, read a little more before you make more statements like that.