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View Full Version : Playing a 20K point game, need some advice...



Oracle
29-04-2008, 23:09
My friends and I are setting up for a Legendary Battle near the end of this month, and tbh I'm not quite sure what to expect. I've read through the WD's battle and have a few ideas on troop deployments and maneuvers but I know there's lots more to learn.

Me: 6500points of Orcs, based heavily on massed units of boys and gobbos, with some cavalry and fast cav on the wings to help out. I'm taking Gorbad, Skarsnik and Grimgor.

My Ally: 3500points of Dark Elves, piecemeal army list made mostly out of proxies, but based on state troops with a meaty block of Cold ones. No beasts or fast cav.

My Enemies: 7000points of Vampire Counts, lots of skellies and zombies with a Vampire to fulfill each role. To be honest it's a stellar list and I've struggled against it many times with my orcs without a win under my belt. Damn those banshees and heavy cav!

3000points of Dwarfs. This guy epitomizes the 'Anvil and the Mountain' tactic. 3 big blocks of warriors, GW, and 2 HW&S with a juicy lord in the middle, supported by ironbreakers and thane on one side, and longbears on the other. He likes traditional artillery, so lots of cannons, stone throwers and bolt throwers. Unless they can be flanked they're a tough nut to crack.


My ally isn't overly fond of Warhammer and has an aversion to taking risks. I.E. he doesn't like to see his guys die and is very cautious with his movement. I'm an ok player but find it hard to coordinate charges with my orcs with Animosity and fear (from the VC) tests running amok in my army.

We're playing for objectives and we'll also have a 'free gift' of 5 giants to my side, and 4 tricked out dwarf cannons to theirs, not affecting out points cost. The battlefield is going to be a T, with a 4x8 being the top of the T, and a 4x4 being the middle, with little scenery cluttering up the board.

Any thoughts?

soots
29-04-2008, 23:47
WoW, it looks like a real uphill battle for you. VC and dwarfs will be very hard to crack.

BUT, 7,000 points of vampire counts is still ONE army, and ONE army has ONE General.

Id say go 16 or so Boltthrowers and all aim at the generals unit. Put 1.5k-2k aside just for general hunting. (multi-Flying heroes)

You know how many models he will be losing a turn once his general dies?? Probably 1k+ points a turn!

Shamfrit
30-04-2008, 00:01
Frenzy will be a vital ally here, even with so many units on the board on rampant group fo Savage Orcs will make sure he spends a small amount of his force on distracting them. Get Waaagh going on Multiple shamans, get in combat and quick. As Soots said, generate a large enough focus on General Killing and the pressure alone should let your opponent slip, especially since you've enough LD and characters to back up your Leadership even if Grimgor/Gorbad die.

Try a Steal Soul Azhag, or if you're lucky make use of his single Fear causing spell (if you roll it) to get one unit for definate into combat where it needs to be. And Remember Squig Hoppers! These things absolutely rip through T3 Undead, the smash alone should win you the first few rounds of combat, unless there's a fighty vamp around. AND they're immune to psych...

And boy, giants...all of them COMPLETELY useless against the VC portion of this army. I would take something else myself, Terror causes only work well against LOW LD Armies, of which neither VC or Dwarfs can be included in that category.

Spirit
30-04-2008, 01:43
WoW, it looks like a real uphill battle for you. VC and dwarfs will be very hard to crack.

BUT, 7,000 points of vampire counts is still ONE army, and ONE army has ONE General.

Id say go 16 or so Boltthrowers and all aim at the generals unit. Put 1.5k-2k aside just for general hunting. (multi-Flying heroes)

You know how many models he will be losing a turn once his general dies?? Probably 1k+ points a turn!

In a situation like that my "general" would be a stupid, lvl2, 240 point lord, sitting smack bang in the nearest forest with 20 skeletons for company. Good luck killing that. Vampires have so many tools at their disposal now, marching and magic wise, that you dont "need" a general to make the army march.

Oh now i think about it, he would probably have 2 scrolls, the black periapt and dark acolyte, so he is a completely defensive mage with 3 dispell dice, 2 scrolls and one of his "power dice" will jst be converted to dispell every turn.

Oracle
30-04-2008, 05:17
WoW, it looks like a real uphill battle for you. VC and dwarfs will be very hard to crack.

BUT, 7,000 points of vampire counts is still ONE army, and ONE army has ONE General.

Id say go 16 or so Boltthrowers and all aim at the generals unit. Put 1.5k-2k aside just for general hunting. (multi-Flying heroes)

You know how many models he will be losing a turn once his general dies?? Probably 1k+ points a turn!



That's what I was planning. I don't have 16 boltthowers - only 2. I was planning on putting a BO Warboss on wyvern with Iron Gnashas (KB) and Ulag Agrit's Axe (Choppa + Reroll misses). Collar of Zorga to deal with his Zombie dragon, and throw him right at the General's unit. The massive range of teh Wyvern should help me find the general relatively shortly. If he fails, then an Orc Shammy on Boar with the Skull Wand (LD test on hit or auto-death) + Waagh! Paint to be extra Dakka'y in CC is a possible backup. I only have 1 wyvern and truthfully, seeing as I have 6500 points of Orcs, I don't want to buy too much more because games like this will be few and far between. The General will be squatting in a unit of 30 GG most likely, and those guys are really hard to crack. I've got a hero in a chariot with Bigged's Kicking Boots and Sword of Battle (+2 A) to try to get in on that unit's flank along with another BO WB with Battleaxe of the Last Waagh! sitting in a unit of 30 Black Orcs to grind his General's unit, I can only hope that'll be enough...




Frenzy will be a vital ally here, even with so many units on the board on rampant group fo Savage Orcs will make sure he spends a small amount of his force on distracting them. Get Waaagh going on Multiple shamans, get in combat and quick. As Soots said, generate a large enough focus on General Killing and the pressure alone should let your opponent slip, especially since you've enough LD and characters to back up your Leadership even if Grimgor/Gorbad die.

Try a Steal Soul Azhag, or if you're lucky make use of his single Fear causing spell (if you roll it) to get one unit for definate into combat where it needs to be. And Remember Squig Hoppers! These things absolutely rip through T3 Undead, the smash alone should win you the first few rounds of combat, unless there's a fighty vamp around. AND they're immune to psych...

And boy, giants...all of them COMPLETELY useless against the VC portion of this army. I would take something else myself, Terror causes only work well against LOW LD Armies, of which neither VC or Dwarfs can be included in that category.


I'm going to proxy some Savage orcs, but I've only got a pool of 90 orcs total to draw from, so I'm not sure how to break up the units - any advice? I've got 4 shammies, so CP 10, DP 6, but with orcs in combat everywhere that should go up. Staff of Badumm to dispel all his stupid low level unit raisers and Morks Spirit Totem to give me an additional +3 Dispell should be enough to counter some of his magic, considering the Dwarfs won't have any offensive stuff except for the Anvil.

I don't want to use Azhag because frankly I like Gorbad better for his Big Un bonus (can upgrade any unit to Big Un) and I want to use my wyvern for the character killer I mentioned above. I'm definitely going to the store to pick up some Hoppers tomorrow - what do you think a good unit size would be? As far as the giants are concernd, I think you're right. I'm still iffy on it, because 4 cannons would do a lot more damage to my forces than 4 giants on ours. I'm going to have to bring that up. We might make them randoms, but that'd still **** our side more than theirs. I don't really know how to balance that...




In a situation like that my "general" would be a stupid, lvl2, 240 point lord, sitting smack bang in the nearest forest with 20 skeletons for company. Good luck killing that. Vampires have so many tools at their disposal now, marching and magic wise, that you dont "need" a general to make the army march.

Oh now i think about it, he would probably have 2 scrolls, the black periapt and dark acolyte, so he is a completely defensive mage with 3 dispell dice, 2 scrolls and one of his "power dice" will jst be converted to dispell every turn.


His general will be a Sorceror/Raiser model, sitting in a unit of 20 GG most likely, hidden somewhere, but I doubt he'd put them in a forest. That's a damn good VC idea though, I hope he doesn't read this. :D
You're right about heroes being dispersed throughout his army to guarantee a march - that's never a concern for him. His magic is more focused on raising rather than offensive magic, but I think with 9 dispel dice on my side alone I should be decent. I'll have to get my ally to bring along a few scroll caddies but it's not like we were going to get much magic off against a dwarf and VC army anyways.

Thanks for all the ideas so far, I'm starting to get a better idea of how to handle this.

Oracle
30-04-2008, 05:54
Here's another question: How do I manage to get a challenge off on the VC lord when he can keep raising his unit champ to take the hit?

soots
30-04-2008, 06:01
In a situation like that my "general" would be a stupid, lvl2, 240 point lord, sitting smack bang in the nearest forest with 20 skeletons for company. Good luck killing that. Vampires have so many tools at their disposal now, marching and magic wise, that you dont "need" a general to make the army march.

Oh now i think about it, he would probably have 2 scrolls, the black periapt and dark acolyte, so he is a completely defensive mage with 3 dispell dice, 2 scrolls and one of his "power dice" will jst be converted to dispell every turn.

In larger games, you probably wont miss him that much and you can hide him somewhere. But in smaller games you will feel the pinch because you have 600 points hiding in the forest. Suddenly, its 2k vs 1.4k.

I still think its the right thing to chase after the vc general in such big games. Mounted heroes and the like all going kamakaze over his generals unit.

With a 2k gunline i can negate any unit in one turn of focus fire regardless of what it is. 7k isnt going to be harder. And imo, those goblin bolt throwers are one of the best value warmachines in the game (dwarfs win there)

soots
30-04-2008, 06:07
Here's another question: How do I manage to get a challenge off on the VC lord when he can keep raising his unit champ to take the hit?


Have another frootloop to accept the challenge. surely you have atleast another person in combat with his uber unit to accept challenges.

Also very important to note that he cannot raise in your turn.

Your turn - you kill his champ
His turn - he raises and accepts. you kill champ again
Your turn - He cant raise, you have free dibs

Bob the Butcher
30-04-2008, 06:43
One word Scrolls. Try to prevent the Vamps raising new troops which will be difficult.

Plenty of Orc & Gobbo Characters to improve your Leadership tests.

Heaps of fanatics.

Makes sure the Dark Elf ally has heaps of Bolt Throwers as support. Good luck

Spirit
30-04-2008, 23:49
In larger games, you probably wont miss him that much and you can hide him somewhere. But in smaller games you will feel the pinch because you have 600 points hiding in the forest. Suddenly, its 2k vs 1.4k.

I still think its the right thing to chase after the vc general in such big games. Mounted heroes and the like all going kamakaze over his generals unit.

With a 2k gunline i can negate any unit in one turn of focus fire regardless of what it is. 7k isnt going to be harder. And imo, those goblin bolt throwers are one of the best value warmachines in the game (dwarfs win there)

Yes, i am aware of this, but i would imagine that in a 2k game they wont have 1.6 k's worth of troops "general hunting". Which was what i was referring to.

If anyone did that in a 2k game i would laugh at them.


One word Scrolls. Try to prevent the Vamps raising new troops which will be difficult.

Plenty of Orc & Gobbo Characters to improve your Leadership tests.

Heaps of fanatics.

Makes sure the Dark Elf ally has heaps of Bolt Throwers as support. Good luck

Why would 25 point magic items (scrolls) be of any use against 6k's worth of one dice castings, all probably at +1 to cast? it will stop his magic for a turn. Maybe.

Shamfrit
01-05-2008, 00:28
I'm going to proxy some Savage orcs, but I've only got a pool of 90 orcs total to draw from, so I'm not sure how to break up the units - any advice?

If that's your pool, then I'd lean towards two units of 25 Orc Boyz with Additional Choppas (explanation below,) and two units of Savage Orcs with the same, all of whom will be Big 'Unz of course. A 4+ armour save is not going to do anything against Vampires, or Grave Guard or Dwarfs with Great Weapons, you're better off getting a heap of S5 hits in on the charge and breaking there and then, playing the attrition game with those two armies is simply not going to work.


I've got 4 shammies, so CP 10, DP 6, but with orcs in combat everywhere that should go up. Staff of Badumm to dispel all his stupid low level unit raisers and Morks Spirit Totem to give me an additional +3 Dispell should be enough to counter some of his magic, considering the Dwarfs won't have any offensive stuff except for the Anvil.

Depends on what your Shamans are, to be honest. In this case, I would go for one Lvl. 4 (Unless I overlooked something.) 2 Lvl. 2 Orc Shamans on Boars, and one Night Goblin Shaman. I'd take a Scroll or two on your Lord Level caster, purely as a back up for Non-Irresistible Spells, such as a dangerous Wind of Death and the like, and then have Staff of Sorcery, Staff of Sneaky Stealin' and Baduum (put this on your Lord, since he has the best chance of rolling for Waaagh! or Gork's Warpath.)


I don't want to use Azhag because frankly I like Gorbad better for his Big Un bonus (can upgrade any unit to Big Un) and I want to use my wyvern for the character killer I mentioned above.

Take 2 Wyverns? :eek:


I'm definitely going to the store to pick up some Hoppers tomorrow - what do you think a good unit size would be?

2 or three units, stretched long at max size in front of either your goblin or Orc line will provide an excellent yet deadly Skirmish Screen, although second thoughts, keep them for the Orcs, you'll get into trouble if a flyer appears and unleashes fanatics straight at you.



As far as the giants are concerned, I think you're right. I'm still iffy on it, because 4 cannons would do a lot more damage to my forces than 4 giants on ours. I'm going to have to bring that up. We might make them randoms, but that'd still **** our side more than theirs. I don't really know how to balance that...

If I was you, I'd swap the giants for a large collection of Doom Divers, Bolt Throwers and Lobbas, proxxied of course. Something that works maybe, :angel: