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vexcet
30-04-2008, 15:35
My question is, how did the Emperor supposedly the most physcic of all humans not predict the Horus Heresy, wheras his son Magnus did.

Thanks, Vexcet

biggreengribbly
30-04-2008, 15:38
Because the Emperor relied on his sheer psychic might, whereas Magnus used tricksy forbidden Sorcery to aid his efforts?

Firaxin
30-04-2008, 15:59
I think he did. I think that's why he left the crusade. Secretly. ;)

Grey Seer Skretch
30-04-2008, 16:04
I think he was supposed to have been bending all his will on trying to subdue the webway because he was intending for the Imperium to...ahem...'borrow' it from its current owners to cut out the whole 'horrors of the warp' thing...it was in one of the 'Visions of blah' Heresy Art books. I guess maybe he was concentrating on that to the detriment of all else?

Nazguire
30-04-2008, 16:18
My question is, how did the Emperor supposedly the most psychic of all humans not predict the Horus Heresy, wheras his son Magnus did.

Thanks, Vexcet

Fixed.

Any number of reasons

- The Four Chaos Gods could have been trying to block his foresight to there.

Or as I believe, he just simply wasn't looking for the Horus Heresy. You don't see something if you aren't actively looking for it do you?

MrBigMr
30-04-2008, 16:22
I think it's just Tzeentch's big plan. Put a hazy vision in Magnus' head, he calls daddy, turns the warp portal into a deathtrap and dooms humanity. And Tzeentch gained himself a legion of space marines in the process.

Just as planned...

vexcet
30-04-2008, 16:32
@ Nazguire you say that the Emperor would not be looking for Heresy so would get visions of it, but why would Magnus be actively looking for a Heresy?

ryng_sting
30-04-2008, 17:07
Magnus only saw what the Chaos Gods wanted him to see, knowing full well what would follow.

The HH artbooks mention that the Emperor's foresight was beginning to dim immediately prior to Horus's appointment as Warmaster, and so this was the time he chose to start his projects on Terra.

Idaan
30-04-2008, 20:03
Well, there's something called the Shadowpoint by the Eldar, that is a decisive point in the future, often related to the seer, that the seer cannot predict. So it's some kind of a blind spot when it comes to foretelling one's future. While the Emperor was attributed all kinds of psychic might, prowess and skill, he couldn't see his own end. Same thing happened to Eldrad, who is too attributed of being the greatest seer of all times (but by different people). He could see the skeins of fate several thousands of years forward (including the Horus Heresy), and yet he couldn't predict his own end that awaited him on the Blackstone Fortress above Cadia.
Same with Magnus - he foresaw the Heresy, but couldn't foresee the purge of Prospero, the fate of his Legion and his own turning to Tzeentch.

Caelnaethon
01-05-2008, 13:35
Alternative theory: maybe the Emperor just wasn't that powerful?

It explains a huge amount.


Well, there's something called the Shadowpoint by the Eldar, that is a decisive point in the future, often related to the seer, that the seer cannot predict.
We do know that it's possible for psykers to predict their own deaths, though; I'm fairly sure both Sanguinius and Night Haunter did.

Chaplain of Chaos
01-05-2008, 14:05
Alternative theory: maybe the Emperor just wasn't that powerful?

I'm sticking with the shadowpoint theory in combination with the interference of Tzeentch.

I much prefer my emperor to be a heroically powerful but inevitably tragic figure.

One thing to think about though.. do you become a self-fulfilling prophecy after you predict your own death, do you get trapped in your vision of the future?

pookie
01-05-2008, 14:40
Alternative theory: maybe the Emperor just wasn't that powerful?

:rolleyes:

the fact he didnt foresee the Heresy to me is simple, he didnt expect one of his sons, especially his most trusted to turn against him, plus being a powerful Psyker doesnt mean you automatically can see into the Future.

a better question would be why didnt Sanguinius see it comeing? he after all he did have that gift.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 14:55
Sanguinius died too, that's why if your sticking to the shadowpoint theorem.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 15:28
Or its the possibility of the Heresy happening in so many ways is why the Emperor (or Sanguinius for that matter) didn't see it happening. It could have been the Magnus Heresy, the Namatjira Heresy, the Mechanicum Schism, the Great Xenos Defection, anything. Look at how teeter edge some Primarchs were on declaring their loyalty to Horus. Fulgrim almost didn't, Alpharius wouldn't have if it wasn't for the Cabal, Magnus through different circumstances might not have, Horus if he wasn't wounded definately wouldn't have and supposedly the Lion wasn't sure whether to or not.

So many different variations of the Heresy of who was involved, and how it started, how it could play out, how it could end, whether it would be of a massive scale (as it was) or a tiny insignificant but still noticed scale (as it would have been if some random Lord Commander such as Namatjira tried to)

How would you possibly know which one to believe, certainly the idea of Horus, the First Primarch, leading the Heresy would have, to the Emperor at least, seemed the least likely of all.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 15:34
Eldrad saw it. He even tried to warn Fulgrim. No, I don't think it's one of those 'there are to many possibilities and hurts my head' syndromes. Even when warned, approached, even smacked upside the head to get the point through, the Imperium of Man failed to respond, including the Big E.

So really, I guess we can chalk it up stubborness and ignorance.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 15:47
Eldrad saw it. He even tried to warn Fulgrim. No, I don't think it's one of those 'there are to many possibilities and hurts my head' syndromes. Even when warned, approached, even smacked upside the head to get the point through, the Imperium of Man failed to respond, including the Big E.

So really, I guess we can chalk it up stubborness and ignorance.


The Cabal saw a set of possibilities that haven't come to pass. The Emperor hasn't died and the Imperium hasn't fallen (it's been shaken up real badly and is suffering at the moment, but it hasn't fallen). That's an example of the amount of possibilities that could have been but didn't.

Once again, would you listen to a race famous for its manipulation of other races, it's blinding conceit and arrogance, and it's callous disregard for other life forms? Especially when one of their leaders tells you that one of your closest brothers, who the last time you saw him was the most loyal member of the Imperium, would turn the galaxy into a battlefield? I wouldn't.

Eldrad saw that Horus would betray the Emperor but didn't specify anything else. And the strength of Eldar farseers is their phenomenally good precognitive abilities. Which is why Farseers are called 'Far-seers'. Is it any wonder Eldrad saw something the Eldar didn't? Eldrad, the most powerful and skilled Farseer ever!;)

Just an aside, Night Haunter prophecied the Heresy too...and got the beat down for it. We misinterpret how unthinkable such a thing would be in those times because frankly, there isn't any circumstances or environment today that could even match it. The closest we have to that would be another country betraying its allies in a war for no reason when they were just about to end the war. But even that is in no way comparable to the situation the Imperium and Horus and the Primarchs were all in.

This was the Great Crusade. The time when 'Old Night' was being destroyed, Humanity was ascendant with little to no adversaries, the Emperor had become the 'Emperor' properly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions at that stage, of planets were under the Imperial fold. Horus had conquered more worlds then anyone else, done more for the Imperium then anyone else. He had such complete trust from the Emperor (the guy who controlled the galaxy more or less at that stage) that he let him have control of half the Imperium's military to continue the prosecuting the campaign.

The Primarchs were superhuman brothers deified by the Imperial public, and had all at one time or another (often multiple times, such as Lorgar or Fulgrim) affirmed their complete love, not loyalty,love, of the Emperor and the ideals he stood for. The aliens in the galaxy were all hostile in one way or another, and Chaos was virtually unknown or misunderstood and played off as a minor insiginificant threat to 'backward superstitious primitives'.

Would you, trying to put yourself in those shoes, possibly conceive the idea that Horus, the First Primarch trusted by all was going to betray everything he had helped build, not just on a local scale, but a GALACTIC scale?

That the very twenty people that the Emperor himself created from his own flesh and blood were going to lead the saviours of the Imperium, the Legio Astartes, to bloody ruin and death? From an alien? A multitude of aliens?

I definately wouldn't be able to.That's why no one listened or paid much heed to warnings, until it was too late.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 16:14
I can only ask one counter question: How would I know said race is famous for manipulation, arrogance and conceit if I were in that position? Your taking advantage of hindsight that wasn't available at the time of the crusades.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 16:19
You wouldn't need to know it in hindsight about the Eldar. The Emperor would know, the generals that fight them would know, (and they would have fought a lot in the Great Crusade...all those juicy Exodite worlds, chance encounters with Craftworlds etc) and the soldiers would know.

That's like saying how would you know the Orks love war. It's evident when you fight them that they like chopping things up, just as after fighting the Eldar for prolonged periods of time you realise that they are manipulative, callous and disregarding pricks ;)

sabreu
01-05-2008, 16:31
Hm. I don't recall alot of Eldar worlds being fought over in the Great Crusades, so I'm skeptical about that. In fact, where they any Eldar worlds fought over in the great crusade at all? My understanding is the birth of Slaanesh heralded the start of the Great Crusade and only the maiden worlds and craftworlds farthest away from what was to be known as the Eye of Terror escaped. Or am I wrong there? Because if I'm not then how was the Emperor 'supposed' to know, or any general 'supposed' to know? Because they fought them? Blah, not likely.

DapperAnarchist
01-05-2008, 16:42
Well, presumably during the DAoT humanity encountered the Eldar at times - they did spread quite a bit. The Emperor was alive for that - what was known then would be known by him. Also, I think the Emperor was a stuck-up arrogant git, so he wouldn't believe that anything other than his tyranical genocidal regime could be appealing to anyone.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 16:47
So...the Emperor left Terra and somehow got back just in time for Terra to be sealed by warp storms? Sounds like excuses to me.

Drachenfell
01-05-2008, 17:09
The Emperor guided humanity with incredible forsight according to his great plan for mankind since his creation in Anatolia 8BC or thereabouts.

The only part of the future the Emperor could not forsee was the time encompassing the heresy. This is more than likely due to the combined might of the chaos gods blinding him to this point in time.

However I should point out that the exact reason for his blindness to this point in time is unknown. In any case the Emperor had been guiding humanity for over 30 thousand years prior to this using his forsight which is a testament to his psychic ability.

sabreu
01-05-2008, 18:18
Well, if you consider everything turning out completely the opposite of what you intended a sucesss a testament to his abilities, kudos to you.

DapperAnarchist
01-05-2008, 18:22
Human domination of the Galaxy with a serious case of Xenophobia? Sounds like his intent...

sabreu
01-05-2008, 18:31
His intent was to unit humanity under logic, understanding, and science. Domination and Xenophobia? That's the twist the Eccliasiarchy spun to the plebs.

heretics bane
01-05-2008, 19:06
Well wouldnt he have seen the aftermath of the heresy? at all.maybe not itself

Rockerfella
01-05-2008, 19:14
This is it. If the Emperor could see beyond the heresy, but not the heresy itself, then he'd have had an idea there was something fishy about to occur. However, if he saw the shadwopoint, and nothing after it, then... why didn't he, in his all knowing marvellousness, figure out that something was REALLY amiss and that he might not be around after the shadowpoint?

Gah! I don't understand! *lol*

Chem-Dog
01-05-2008, 23:16
The shadowpoint theory bears out, it's a one stop shop for bringing down anyone with procognative abilities and worthy of a greek tragedy, granted foresight into all things except how to escape your own fate.

It works for the Emperor to a degree, his return to Terra could herald his realisation that there was something awry, worrying visions could make him decide to go back home and bring Rogal "Castle Maker" Dorn with him.
It could just herald the next stage of his ultimate plan where he might be expecting some hassle (if he were planning to hijack the webway, you'd expect a little bit).

There are hints in false gods that the the Emperor is somehow, at some level dealing with the Chaos Gods and although it could be written off as Tzeenchian fibbing it's always better to lace a lie with a few truths.
The Emperor, and by extention the Imperium refuses to accept the existance of Daemons and dismisses the idea as superstition based on ignorance with no Impirical truth, surely a supreme psychic being such as the Emperor would have all of the Impirical truth he needed just by dipping his mind into the warp.
Bearing in mind that there are no gods or daemons, why does the Emperor have such potent wards against attack from such beings protecting the primarchs as they develope.
Finally, it's hinted at in Legion that a brief glimpse at the Emperor's plan was enough to turn John Gramaticus' blood cold, meerly at the recollection. This is a guy who's already died at least once and works for a band of aliens who can contact him by using reflective surfaces (and resurect the dead) so the plan is trully scary, whatever it is.


Problem is, foresight is hard to quantify, I doubt anyone would have it to the level that one could have a cinemax experience of what the next day/week/month/year has in store, it would be in brief snatches in soon forgotten dreams or by intepretting certain signs or portents.
Intepretation in itself would offer a different answer to each person, even if the signs were the same for everyone, just look at horoscopes, practically every newspaper has a star signs section with some person telling you what to expect in extremely generic terms over the next day/week/month/year.
The predictions can vary wildly from interpreter to interpreter, despite the fact they are all supposed to be using the same fairly immutable set of references.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-05-2008, 23:41
Well, if you consider everything turning out completely the opposite of what you intended a sucesss a testament to his abilities, kudos to you.

Yeah. He kept humanity alive for 38000 years through his manipulations (born in 8000 b.c., go on from there), and dragged them out of their darkest possible period into a future of human dominion over the galaxy.

That isn't an accomplishment, now, because he failed to foresee one event? An event, might I remind you, that was clouded from his vision by the might of Chaos itself and the expected plot-device of a Shadowpoint (last bit is conjecture, but still)? Seriously.

I am a skilled driver. But if you blindfolded me, put me on an unfamiliar road, and told me to drive, I wouldn't make it very far. Good enough analogy to perhaps bring this through to you?


Just as planned...

More or less...

Lord Tyrannus
02-05-2008, 03:19
was thinking that maybe he didn't see it because he didn't want to see it... sure some of you might have tried that as well, i have(many times:rolleyes:)...
some say that horus was hes favourd "child"... so if you could see into the future, and saw your favourite child (not politically correct by the way;)) destroy everything u had worked for your entire life, and try to kill u at the same time... would u want to "see" it? or just go into denial?

personaly i think he would have chosen the denial... also based on the fact that magnus tried to warn him, with forbiden sorcery, and all that happened was that magnus got the wolves trown at him:eyebrows:... i think he tried to convince himself that it was never going to happen... or maybe it was the only way to avoid somthing worse in the long run... i dont know...

better that i stop here, or my mind will spin a h*** of a lot of other theories around that will get crazier and crazier and........

Drachenfell
02-05-2008, 07:37
as other people have pointed out the Emperor guided humanity for a very long time and succesfilly up to the heresy. Even when the heresy came about and he was not able to forsee its outcome he still came through in the end. Mankind is pretty much at the top of the food chain with a galaxy spanning empire.

I'd say he did pretty damn well considering. The emperor could not see the heresy nor any point afterward. One may think that his creation of the primarches was specifically to combat this point in time that he could not forsee.

However the Imperium didn't turn out as he wished, he got the next best thing. Its not been a total failure. And I'm sure when interred in the golden throne he knew that on waking such things would be corrected. Perhaps why the high lords have chosen not to resurrect him (if the inquisition books bear any weight).

The emperor has guided man since his creation and I'm sure in some small way he still is. Just because things are not yet at the point he wanted, doesn't mean he's given up on it entirely.

In terms of Magnus, The Enperor was angry but asked Russ to bring Magnus to Tera that he might explain himself. It was Horus whom subverted these orders and told Russ to destroy the Thousand sons legion. If Magnus had a chance and an audience with the Emperor its possible it would have been averted.

But as someone said before me, Magnis was shown what chaos wanted him to see. Sorcery was a chaotic art and hence why the Emperor forbade it. The reason why Magnus could see what the Emperor could not is because chaos showed it to him. Whereas it is more than likely that chaos had spent considerable effort to blind the big E to the Heresy.

Hellebore
02-05-2008, 08:05
Yeah. He kept humanity alive for 38000 years through his manipulations (born in 8000 b.c., go on from there), and dragged them out of their darkest possible period into a future of human dominion over the galaxy.

That isn't an accomplishment, now, because he failed to foresee one event? An event, might I remind you, that was clouded from his vision by the might of Chaos itself and the expected plot-device of a Shadowpoint (last bit is conjecture, but still)? Seriously.

I am a skilled driver. But if you blindfolded me, put me on an unfamiliar road, and told me to drive, I wouldn't make it very far. Good enough analogy to perhaps bring this through to you?



More or less...

In that instance, I would stop driving. The emperor kept plowing ahead whilst blind.

For all his years, he was pretty inactive (on a galactic scale). Then, in a flurry of effort he does more in 200 years than he had done in the last 2000. It seems... recklessly fast considering his longevity and previous modus operandi.

I attribute it simply to fallibility. The emperor is a soul gestalt of thousands of human psyker souls, created during the neolithic to preserve the 'old ways'. He wasn't created to crusade across the galaxy, the shamen didn't even know what a galaxy WAS.

They were sitting on their little planet in one little corner and realised that their way of life was ending and tried desperately to save it. So they formed the Emperor.

The Emperor is effectively an Eldar Infinity Circuit in corporeal form. That doesn't make him infallible.

So I put it down to his human fallibility, just as it was their (very) human fallibility that laid the Primarchs low.

Hellebore

Drachenfell
02-05-2008, 08:26
some things you can't just say "Okay I want to stop driving now. Stop the world" The Enperor had little choice in his taking humanity further. There was no one more qualified. In addition we don't know what actions the Emperor and the Shamans conducted in during the years leading up to the Emperor actually making himself known. Though we as humans may not have interacted on anything more than a global scale he may have been interacting on a galactic scale at the same time.

Needless to say we know that the Emperor has been guiding and keeping humanity safe for 38000 years. It is said that his subtle actions prior to the unifiction of mankind and creation of the primarches were because he could guide humanity better in a subtle manner than outright declaring himself master of mankind.

When the time came that he could he did. He knew that something was coming and he did not know it was the heresy. Yet he prepared them for it. He created the primarches and the astartes. He united mankind across the galaxy and was enough of a credible threat to warrant chaos uniting against him.

Even after his internment he's basically given mankind one of the biggest and most powerful empires in the galaxy. Was he driving blind. Well maybe. In anycase we arnt at the destination yet, but hes kept mankind in one piece getting there.

Count Demandred
02-05-2008, 09:15
Same thing happened to Eldrad, who is too attributed of being the greatest seer of all times (but by different people). He could see the skeins of fate several thousands of years forward (including the Horus Heresy), and yet he couldn't predict his own end that awaited him on the Blackstone Fortress above Cadia.

I was under the impression Eldrad knew very well what was about to happen to him, and went into the Blackstone Fortress with this in mind.

Did he not let himself be taken by the spirit of the machine, so that he may battle with it, and eventually defeat/turn it to good? OR something like that?

Count Demandred
02-05-2008, 09:17
Alternative theory: maybe the Emperor just wasn't that powerful?

It explains a huge amount.


We do know that it's possible for psykers to predict their own deaths, though; I'm fairly sure both Sanguinius and Night Haunter did.

Would you mind explaining about the Night Haunter there, I'm aware of the Sanguinius thing, but not about the Night Haunter... What did he forsee, and how did he perish?

Count Demandred
02-05-2008, 09:27
You wouldn't need to know it in hindsight about the Eldar. The Emperor would know, the generals that fight them would know, (and they would have fought a lot in the Great Crusade...all those juicy Exodite worlds, chance encounters with Craftworlds etc) and the soldiers would know.

That's like saying how would you know the Orks love war. It's evident when you fight them that they like chopping things up, just as after fighting the Eldar for prolonged periods of time you realise that they are manipulative, callous and disregarding pricks ;)

Just a minor sticking point, as I agree with your surmise that the Emperor wouldn't possibly listen to Eldrad’s warning. For the reasons you mentioned above.

But my sticking point is – The Imperium wouldn’t have known the Eldar as a master race that used them. I think that came about after the Heresy, as the Eldar saw the humans folly and took it upon themselves to act in the interests of all the Craftworlds, and the Universe.

Count Demandred
02-05-2008, 09:43
some things you can't just say "Okay I want to stop driving now. Stop the world" The Enperor had little choice in his taking humanity further. There was no one more qualified. In addition we don't know what actions the Emperor and the Shamans conducted in during the years leading up to the Emperor actually making himself known. Though we as humans may not have interacted on anything more than a global scale he may have been interacting on a galactic scale at the same time.

Needless to say we know that the Emperor has been guiding and keeping humanity safe for 38000 years. It is said that his subtle actions prior to the unifiction of mankind and creation of the primarches were because he could guide humanity better in a subtle manner than outright declaring himself master of mankind.

When the time came that he could he did. He knew that something was coming and he did not know it was the heresy. Yet he prepared them for it. He created the primarches and the astartes. He united mankind across the galaxy and was enough of a credible threat to warrant chaos uniting against him.

Even after his internment he's basically given mankind one of the biggest and most powerful empires in the galaxy. Was he driving blind. Well maybe. In anycase we arnt at the destination yet, but hes kept mankind in one piece getting there.

Aah, the old chicken before the egg debate.

I like that theory anyhow.

Drachenfell
02-05-2008, 09:48
I would suggest Night haunter didn't forsee his death in the same terms as sanguinius but instead expected it.

He allowed the assassin to kill him because he believed it vindication for his crimes. He did however psychically forsee the death of his homeworld which he believed the emperor responsible. Ironically it was by his own hand that his homeworld was destroyed.

Hmmm thinking about it now I always had a little theory with Sanguinius and his death. In old old fluff it was not a custode or a space marine that was killed by Horus and forced the emperor to change his mind but a guardsman by the name of Pious.

I always thought it'd be kinda cool to think that sanguinius forsaw his death but also the events that would occurs thereafter and engineered for Pious to interrupt Horus at that moment and that Horuss armor would have its chink so the Emperor would survive the ordeal.

Playing tzneench at its own game and winning so to speak. Something to think about anyway.

DantesInferno
02-05-2008, 10:49
I would suggest Night haunter didn't forsee his death in the same terms as sanguinius but instead expected it.

Night Lords IA:


One of the better known facts about Konrad Curze was that he was cursed by visions of horrifying potency throughout his life. Rather than seeing the myriad possibilities the future could hold, as the sorcerous Eldar claim they are able to, the visions he would experience were inevitably dark and troubled, the blackest paths the future could take unwinding before him. Among the most debated writings of Curze's history are the revelations contained in volume two of 'The Dark.

"At times, in raptures of pain, I saw what was to occur laid out before me. In these waking dreams, I took countless lives with my bare hands, heads taken as trophies. I died again and again at the hands of my father. My sons butchered and maimed their brothers. My name was to become synonymous with dread. But most vividly and with most frequency, I saw my world pierced by a lance of purest light, splitting it, shattering it into dust."


Although a son of the Emperor was answerable to none but the ruler of Mankind himself. Night Haunter's behaviour was looked upon with suspicion by his brother Primarchs. The scars left by his former life on Nostramo ran deep. Despite the fact that he spent time with his peers, the Primarch kept himself at a distance, never able to join in their camaraderie or share their joy. He still fell into convulsions, plagued by visions of his own death, of his Night Lords fighting war after war with the other Legions of the Adeptus Astartes. But despite the concern of his companions, he would not reveal any more than dark hints of the cause of his tormented spirit. This feeling of isolation gradually grew into paranoia, and the gulf between Night Haunter and the brotherhood of the Primarchs widened.


Although the Night Lords are distinguished by jet black eyes and pale skin, the real legacy of Night Haunter may be psychological. There is a tendency for paranoia and self-destructive behaviour in the Night Lords, and it is said that their sorcerers have a pronounced vulnerability to being wracked with painful seizures in which they experience visions, oblique or not, of the future. Night Haunter is believed to have only been able to see the darkest path of all possible futures, a terrible curse, and the visions tended to be self-fulfilling. It is to be hoped that the Night Lords' sorcerers suffer the same fate. This is as yet speculation. However, given their Primarch's susceptibility to such prophesies, it seems more than likely.

Drachenfell
02-05-2008, 11:00
I stand corrected. :P

sabreu
02-05-2008, 16:11
Yeah. He kept humanity alive for 38000 years through his manipulations (born in 8000 b.c., go on from there), and dragged them out of their darkest possible period into a future of human dominion over the galaxy.

He kept humanity alive? :p Surely you jest there, since we have evidence there are plenty of human populated civilizations that have survived without his aide and in fact many were destroyed by his servants. Besides, we have no proof he did anything other than **** off and enjoy life until he started the Great Crusade.


That isn't an accomplishment, now, because he failed to foresee one event? An event, might I remind you, that was clouded from his vision by the might of Chaos itself and the expected plot-device of a Shadowpoint (last bit is conjecture, but still)? Seriously.

No, it's not an accomplishment, as humanity would have prospered with or without him. Our species is tenacious to the extreme. But in the end, I don't fault him for suffering from his Shadowpoint, I fault him for being an incompotent leader.

Besides, the Imperium of Man has become a bulwark against it's enemies because of the infleunce of Roboute Guilliman, the technological support from the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Emperor-based religion that spread like wild fire within it's domain post heresy.

heretics bane
02-05-2008, 16:29
.No, it's not an accomplishment, as humanity would have prospered with or without him. Our species is tenacious to the extreme. But in the end, I don't fault him for suffering from his Shadowpoint, I fault him for being an incompotent leader

Hardly if we where on the path to extinction before he showed up, we lost most of out reliable tech, hundreds of worlds had been in-slaved or wiped out and we where on the edge of a massive pysker threat through untrained psykers.

But im sure we where just dandy enough to start a new imperium:eyebrows:

sabreu
02-05-2008, 16:34
Yep. A few of those worlds began progressing technology or still had STC technology until some fool guard general hurled asteroids at them. And wasn't it Horus himself who slew the auretian technocracy to conceal their technology?

Besides, Macharius stopped his crusade when he got to world's that had never heard of the Emperor. That sounds like a long time of prospering without the Big E to me.

DapperAnarchist
02-05-2008, 16:50
His intent was to unit humanity under logic, understanding, and science. Domination and Xenophobia? That's the twist the Eccliasiarchy spun to the plebs.

Logic, understanding, science, and HIM. You don't call yourself the Emperor for nothing. Xenophobia? What else would you call all that purging of aliens and the whole crusade thing?

sabreu
02-05-2008, 16:58
Dapper,

He punished Lorgar. He censured his general and legion for sowing the Emperor-based religion. Read all the source materials and he always is a leader who did not want to be worshipped. He had his own view on the world, and that world was ruled by intelligent men. He was working towards that goal and nothing more.

As for the Great Crusade, that was just expansion and manifest destiny. Xenophobia requires a fear of aliens. Manifest Destiny demands only courage in humans.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 18:28
Dapper,

He punished Lorgar. He censured his general and legion for sowing the Emperor-based religion. Read all the source materials and he always is a leader who did not want to be worshipped. He had his own view on the world, and that world was ruled by intelligent men. He was working towards that goal and nothing more.

As for the Great Crusade, that was just expansion and manifest destiny. Xenophobia requires a fear of aliens. Manifest Destiny demands only courage in humans.


No. There was xenophobia during the Great Crusade. Read Horus Rising. Lucius is reprimanded for using a weapon from those 'foul xenos' and is told 'shame on you Lucius, you know better then to touch anything from an alien' basically. Loken and Garro both have similar beliefs and ideals in those novels too.

Fulgrim mentions a good case of xenophobia with the Laeran Cleansing. Because they were alien and 'foul aliens' at that that 'parodied human perfection' was the reason they were exterminated. Plenty of xenophobia there.

There was plenty of xenophobia during the Heresy, and it would have started from up high with the Emperor.

sabreu
02-05-2008, 18:33
Give one quote that shows it started with the Emperor and a page reference. Just one.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 18:37
Give one quote that shows it started with the Emperor and a page reference. Just one.

And in that same vein of demand, give me one quote that states the Emperor wasn't afraid of aliens, was quite happy to share the Imperium with them in equal measure, and a page reference, just one.

Policies that all the Primarchs seemed to share (Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Mortarion all mentioned similar ideas on what to do to aliens if you encounter one in the Horus Heresy novels) when their mission statement comes from on high (the Emperor) suggests that it was the Council of Terra (which get their missives from the Emperor at that time) or the Emperor himself.

And while I don't have a quote on hand (since I haven't got the books with me at the moment, they are stashed in my cupboard) that says directly "The Emperor hates aliens, lets kill 'em' or to that effect, there is enough throughout the books and the Index Astartes that strongly suggests that it was the Emperor's xenophobia, and for good reason, that resulted in so many aliens being killed off in cold prejudice.

sabreu
02-05-2008, 18:47
And in that same vein of demand, give me one quote that states the Emperor wasn't afraid of aliens, was quite happy to share the Imperium with them in equal measure, and a page reference, just one.

Well since I'm not debating that he was willing to share the Imperium or happily abide xeno wishes, I think I'll just skip this.


Policies that all the Primarchs seemed to share (Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Mortarion all mentioned similar ideas on what to do to aliens if you encounter one in the Horus Heresy novels) when their mission statement comes from on high (the Emperor) suggests that it was the Council of Terra (which get their missives from the Emperor at that time) or the Emperor himself.

I guess my view comes from my other hobby as a gardener. I don't irrationally hate or fear weeds but I have to get rid of them if I want my garden to grow into what i want it to.


And while I don't have a quote on hand (since I haven't got the books with me at the moment, they are stashed in my cupboard) that says directly "The Emperor hates aliens, lets kill 'em' or to that effect, there is enough throughout the books and the Index Astartes that strongly suggests that it was the Emperor's xenophobia, and for good reason, that resulted in so many aliens being killed off in cold prejudice.

I have all of those, and every time I read them I always get the intimation that alot of the Legions perversed the Emperor's directives. To me, the Emperor is the callous scientist, largely indifferent. His genocidal directives are simply a fact; if humanity is to grow, kill that which would prevent it so. Primarchs such as Fulgrim imposed their own perspective unto that directive, as others may have, which is the good old xehophobia that permeats the warhammer 40,000 in the centuries post heresy. Understand where I'm coming from now?

Caelnaethon
02-05-2008, 18:53
...it was the Emperor's xenophobia, and for good reason, that resulted in so many aliens being killed off in cold prejudice.

What good reason was that? What reason at all did the Emperor have for hating xenos? Bear in mind that the Great Crusade came not long after the Birth of Slaanesh. The Craftworld Eldar were a collection of ragged refugees who hadn't even begun their worst atrocities in ensuring their continued survival. The Dark Kin were still building their city in the Webway, and could hardly have been much of an obvious threat. The Tyranids hadn't shown up yet, the Necrons were still buried (and barely count as xenos in any case). The Orks were certainly dangerous, but would the Emperor really have hated all aliens on that basis? Doesn't really seem in character.

Idaan
02-05-2008, 19:50
Well the HH series proves otherwise, with Eldar society being fully developed just what? 300 years after the Fall, which is an equivalent of 20-30 human years. They already invented Infinity Circuits, Path system with Autarchs who should have several hundreds of years of experience, Eldrad already being the top-Farseer pwznor, etc. But that's more of authors' laziness than everything else.
But there still were other dangerous Xenos such as the Interex or Megarachnids.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-05-2008, 21:24
In that instance, I would stop driving. The emperor kept plowing ahead whilst blind.

As Drachenfell said, sometimes you can't.


For all his years, he was pretty inactive (on a galactic scale). Then, in a flurry of effort he does more in 200 years than he had done in the last 2000. It seems... recklessly fast considering his longevity and previous modus operandi.

I attribute it simply to fallibility. The emperor is a soul gestalt of thousands of human psyker souls, created during the neolithic to preserve the 'old ways'. He wasn't created to crusade across the galaxy, the shamen didn't even know what a galaxy WAS.

They were sitting on their little planet in one little corner and realised that their way of life was ending and tried desperately to save it. So they formed the Emperor.

The Emperor is effectively an Eldar Infinity Circuit in corporeal form. That doesn't make him infallible.

So I put it down to his human fallibility, just as it was their (very) human fallibility that laid the Primarchs low.

Hellebore

This is pretty reasonable; it was kind of reckless for him to do what he did, but for whatever reason he was convinced that it had to happen for Humanity to survive.


I was under the impression Eldrad knew very well what was about to happen to him, and went into the Blackstone Fortress with this in mind.

Did he not let himself be taken by the spirit of the machine, so that he may battle with it, and eventually defeat/turn it to good? OR something like that?

He didn't let himself get taken, the story piece goes into detail at his shock and horror. He's still fighting, yeah, and if he triumphs (not terribly likely at all), there'll be room for lots of quaffing, food, and merriment, but his intention was never to be sucked into the ultimate hell for a member of his race.


He kept humanity alive? :p Surely you jest there, since we have evidence there are plenty of human populated civilizations that have survived without his aide and in fact many were destroyed by his servants. Besides, we have no proof he did anything other than **** off and enjoy life until he started the Great Crusade.

Because repeatedly through the canon I've seen and heard of references to his constant, subtle guidance of Humanity. But if that's not proof enough for you, then I can't possibly argue with you.


No, it's not an accomplishment, as humanity would have prospered with or without him. Our species is tenacious to the extreme. But in the end, I don't fault him for suffering from his Shadowpoint, I fault him for being an incompotent leader.

We may be a tenacious race (hell, all life is), but that in and of itself will not keep us from extinction. I'm sure the Dodo didn't want to die out.


Besides, the Imperium of Man has become a bulwark against it's enemies because of the infleunce of Roboute Guilliman, the technological support from the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Emperor-based religion that spread like wild fire within it's domain post heresy.

Who made Roboute Guilleman? Who brought the Imperium and Mars together? Who is the central figurehead of this religion you speak of?


What good reason was that? What reason at all did the Emperor have for hating xenos? Bear in mind that the Great Crusade came not long after the Birth of Slaanesh. The Craftworld Eldar were a collection of ragged refugees who hadn't even begun their worst atrocities in ensuring their continued survival. The Dark Kin were still building their city in the Webway, and could hardly have been much of an obvious threat. The Tyranids hadn't shown up yet, the Necrons were still buried (and barely count as xenos in any case). The Orks were certainly dangerous, but would the Emperor really have hated all aliens on that basis? Doesn't really seem in character.

Rather than ask, "Why kill the alien?" a better question would be "Why not?" :p

Drachenfell
03-05-2008, 07:38
The Emperor was known to wage war on the Xenos and construct the great crusade to free mankind whom had been enslaved by the xenos and the daemon. The great crusade was one of uniting mankind and freeing them from the oppression that the dark age of technology left behind.

Mankind was fragmented over a thousand worlds. The Emperor wanted to reunite them. It was not a quest to rid the galaxy of the xenos but to free mankind from those whom had become slaves to the xenos. (A source of mankind hate of the alien)

Atleast that was the old official fluff for the great crusade. I can't understand however why some of you believe the Emperor was a terrible leader. Were it not for him mankind would have perished after the dark age of technology and quite possibly well before then. Without the Emperor there would be no Astartes, no unified mankind, no primarches (Though I can understand pros and cons to this).

The Emperor had been guiding mankind for a long long time prior to the DAoT. Subtly he is known to have steered mankind through the darkest of times and ensured their survival. Though his deeds are not listed it is implied that without the Emperor guiding mankind through the ages we would have been lost far before that.

All of this and the Emperors current state of aid to the Imperium certainly does not depict him as a useless or lackluster commander. Through him mankind has not just survived but carved one of the greatest empires in the galaxy.

The Eldar were also known to offer the Emperor access to the black library.he was known to consider bartering with them. This does not imply his hatred or predjudice of all Aliens. In fact some fluff points to the Eldar believing the big E to be their salvation as ynnead. This may have been known at the time to people such as Eldrad and inspired connections between the two civilizations.

Hellebore
03-05-2008, 09:10
Atleast that was the old official fluff for the great crusade. I can't understand however why some of you believe the Emperor was a terrible leader. Were it not for him mankind would have perished after the dark age of technology and quite possibly well before then. Without the Emperor there would be no Astartes, no unified mankind, no primarches (Though I can understand pros and cons to this).

Well, to put it bluntly, if humanity sucked SO MUCH that it required a walking talking Deus ex Machina to drag them from the poopoo then in the galactic scheme of things they don't deserve to exist.

Even after their race was slaughtered by their own stupidity and arrogance the eldar still exist. They haven't gone extinct and they haven't required the services of a god to do it either. In fact it was the creation of a god that screwed them over in the first place.

Of all the races in the galaxy only the orks are succeeding in any meaningful way. The eldar are ghosts, the Imperium is decaying but the orks are having the time of their lives.

If we are going to talk about the success of leaders and their ability to unit their people, well Ghazkhull Thraka probably united more orks in his Waaagh!s than the Emperor did humans. The Arch Arsonist of Charadon has a massive empire of thousands of worlds that has existed right next to Ultramar for thousands of years with no signs of it disappearing.

All that without the aid of Primarchs or Emperors.

Sometimes I think people put the Emperor's accomplishments way out of proportion.

Hellebore

Chem-Dog
03-05-2008, 10:28
some say that horus was hes favourd "child"... so if you could see into the future, and saw your favourite child (not politically correct by the way;)) destroy everything u had worked for your entire life, and try to kill u at the same time... would u want to "see" it? or just go into denial?

...also based on the fact that magnus tried to warn him, with forbiden sorcery, and all that happened was that magnus got the wolves trown at him:eyebrows:...

Drawing from the best paralell I can think of, if you only/favourite child turned out to be sociopathic serial killer would you want to know (assuming you're not one of their first "projects" :eek: ) or would you be in denial?

Don't forget Russ was only sent to collect Magnus and bring him to the Emperor for a telling off, the Wolves went feral at Horus' instigation.


In that instance, I would stop driving. The emperor kept plowing ahead whilst blind.

When you're a the head of a juggernaught sometimes you can't stop quick enough.
In my previous job I had a lot of time to talk to Fuel Tanker drivers, they get paid Danger money because if they are carrying a full load, inertia will make it impossible for you to stop in time if you have to break suddenly.


Give one quote that shows it started with the Emperor and a page reference. Just one.

I'm certain it's in there....


What good reason was that? What reason at all did the Emperor have for hating xenos?

Apart from the decimation and enslavement of multitudes of lone human colonies throughout the "Old Night"? Allergies, I think.


Because repeatedly through the canon I've seen and heard of references to his constant, subtle guidance of Humanity. But if that's not proof enough for you, then I can't possibly argue with you.

The Emperor Protects. ;)

heretics bane
03-05-2008, 10:46
Besides, Macharius stopped his crusade when he got to world's that had never heard of the Emperor. That sounds like a long time of prospering without the Big E to me.

No. He stopped because he troops refused to fight on into the area where the astronomican basicly stops and warp travel became to dangerous.

1000 worlds in 7 years! thats probebly the best crusade the imperium have seen since the great crusade

Caelnaethon
03-05-2008, 11:02
1000 worlds in 7 years! thats probebly the best crusade the imperium have seen since the great crusade
Yet even the Great Crusade was fought less by the Emperor and more by his full twenty (eighteen?) Space Marine legions of indefinite size. His point is that humanity has shown itself perfectly capable of surviving and often thriving without the Emperor to hold their collective hand.


Drawing from the best paralell I can think of, if you only/favourite child turned out to be sociopathic serial killer would you want to know (assuming you're not one of their first "projects" :eek: ) or would you be in denial?
And indeed, that's a perfectly forgivable failing in any human being. But most human beings don't live to be over thirty-eight thousand years old. We're to believe that the Emperor lived for that long, amid humanity, steering us away from whatever dangers were so bad that he didn't have time for all the wars, plagues and famines that did happen (:p) and yet never developed a degree of detachment or even a basic grasp of human nature?


Apart from the decimation and enslavement of multitudes of lone human colonies throughout the "Old Night"? Allergies, I think.
Interesting. Hadn't heard of that, but I can't dispute it. I always just thought the Emperor was a rational, enlightened figure, not one driven by mindless hatred.


Well, to put it bluntly, if humanity sucked SO MUCH that it required a walking talking Deus ex Machina to drag them from the poopoo then in the galactic scheme of things they don't deserve to exist.
Quite. I've always felt this was one of several very good reasons why the Emperor's genesis in 8000 BC doesn't get talked about anymore.

Hellebore
03-05-2008, 11:06
Quite. I've always felt this was one of several very good reasons why the Emperor's genesis in 8000 BC doesn't get talked about anymore.

Of course, if we do away with that genesis we are stuck with the Emperor as only a man, with considerably less power than he would have otherwise had.

I would feel very uncomfortable if the emperor as man was still capable of scaring the gods of chaos and/or fighting the warp in the manner attributed to him.

At least with a soul gestalt you have SOME reason for his existence, and justification for his power. Remove that and you end up in a worse place where the Emperor is 'just' a dude who also 'just' happens to be the chosen one with phenomenal power for no reason.

That, or the Emperor was all propaganda.

Hellebore

Chem-Dog
03-05-2008, 11:49
And indeed, that's a perfectly forgivable failing in any human being. But most human beings don't live to be over thirty-eight thousand years old. We're to believe that the Emperor lived for that long, amid humanity, steering us away from whatever dangers were so bad that he didn't have time for all the wars, plagues and famines that did happen (:p) and yet never developed a degree of detachment or even a basic grasp of human nature?....


....Interesting. Hadn't heard of that, but I can't dispute it. I always just thought the Emperor was a rational, enlightened figure, not one driven by mindless hatred.

I think we can be pretty sure in saying NO humans live to be thirty eight thousand ;)
I've never seen the Emperor as being particularly concerned with the individual human, more than humanity as a whole, He's a warmonger and utterly ruthless in the pursuit of his aims, you can't be that kind of person and not be comfortable with the fact that many many people will die at your word.
And what's to say that the wars and famines that DID happen aren't actually the better option to what would have happened if the Emperor hadn't been involved?

I don't think The Emperor is driven by fear of Xenos species or by any particular revenge motive by declaring Xenos to be exterminated, he's simply removing an impediment from the path of Humanity's Manifest Destiny as he sees it, the fact that Aliens have enslaved or eaten many human outposts is proof that Xenos are nasty and need to be killed.


Of course, if we do away with that genesis we are stuck with the Emperor as only a man, with considerably less power than he would have otherwise had.

I would feel very uncomfortable if the emperor as man was still capable of scaring the gods of chaos and/or fighting the warp in the manner attributed to him.

At least with a soul gestalt you have SOME reason for his existence, and justification for his power. Remove that and you end up in a worse place where the Emperor is 'just' a dude who also 'just' happens to be the chosen one with phenomenal power for no reason.

That, or the Emperor was all propaganda.

Hellebore


I like the Idea that the Emperor is "The One", that some kind of collective race conciousness called the Emperor into being.
This is where I can see the Old Ones stepping in, an "In case of emergeancy break glass to create ultimate super psychic messiah" mechanism, if you will.
I don't know how well the timeline works with Old Ones, C'tan, Humanity and 8000BC though.
The Emperor as a man could be a problem to gods in a Stone/Ripple kind of way, not so much the power of the individual as the power invested in him by an entire race that believes in him, if in the Warp belief is power, then billions of people believing in you makes you a big player. All of those acts performed in his name and all of those minds turned to his purpose could easily cause the chaos gods some consternation, even if it's the worry that between them one would gain control of this "resource" and become far more powerful as a result.

DantesInferno
03-05-2008, 12:27
Of course, if we do away with that genesis we are stuck with the Emperor as only a man, with considerably less power than he would have otherwise had.

I would feel very uncomfortable if the emperor as man was still capable of scaring the gods of chaos and/or fighting the warp in the manner attributed to him.

At least with a soul gestalt you have SOME reason for his existence, and justification for his power. Remove that and you end up in a worse place where the Emperor is 'just' a dude who also 'just' happens to be the chosen one with phenomenal power for no reason.

To be honest, I don't see any reason why viewing the Emperor as "just" a man prevents him from having the phenomenal power he's described as having. After all, genetics is a powerful force. A powerful psyker around on Terra in M29 uniting humanity and leading a galactic crusade? Seems plausible to me.

Remember that there have been plenty of other exceptional psykers (even in the Imperium's comparatively short history) with extraordinary powers. The problem is that individuals like that can only really take control of one or two worlds before the Imperium turns up to crush them like bugs. Look at Lord Varlak, for instance. The Imperium has huge organisations dedicated to rounding up powerful psykers before they can begin to achieve things on the scale on which the Emperor did.

However, if you're really keen on the psychic gestalt idea, it's perfectly possible to merge the two theories. Have the Emperor as a naturally born powerful psyker with a sort of soul vampirism, feasting on the essences of other powerful psykers and individuals throughout human history until the time was right to lead the Great Crusade.

DapperAnarchist
03-05-2008, 12:45
Just one thing - I didn't mean religious worship. I meant Tyranny. Pure simple totalitarian rule under one man. His Xenophobia may have been justified - aliens were, and are, dangerous - but its was still there, and is his legacy. He sent the Legions out to hunt the Q'Orl didn't he? I mean, specifically.

Drachenfell
03-05-2008, 12:52
The Emperor is not a man. He's thousands upon thousands of men that have been reincarnating themselves since their creation. He is human but he is the New Man. The epitome of everything that is human and with it he is the first and most powerful psyker in existence.

He was created at the only time he could be created and in a sense is almost like gestalt daemon rather than a human. Ally we know is that the Emperor did these things. Whether you think mankind is weak solely because without him they would have crumbled does not negate the fact that he was there and he guided them out of extinction to unification and dominion over the galaxy.

Would mankind have united or be in any where near the shape they are now without him?unlikely. Mainly due to the fact that the dark age of technology left most human occupied worlds radiated rocks with mutants and other such creatures plaguing humanity.

We probably would have been piece meal for any ork waagh or tyranid fleet passing through. Yet he came out of no where and fixed things.

Yes the Orks are doing well. But all you need to do with them is promise them a good fight and they'll turn up. Though there is interfighting they have never pushed themselves to the brink of extinction as the humans have. The arch arsonist has a considerable empire but nothing near what the Emperor has carved out of Ork and Xenos controlled worlds which now accounts for over half the galaxy.

In comparison the Emperor brought a dying race from the brink of extinction, united them in one goal, created the greatest armies and commanders and carved out an empire from hostile controlled worlds in the space of 200 years where in the process chaos combined deemed that he would be unstoppable with the combined power of all 20 primarches and wet their collective pants.

I don't think I'm over stating his powers in the least.

Hellebore
03-05-2008, 13:37
The eldar used to reincarnate too. They are also psychically more powerful than humanity.

Thus, in the grand scheme of things, the Emperor is not particularly impressive as an individual.

He's sort of like the human equivalent of a phoenix lord, only with more souls fused together (although considering the strength of a single eldar soul compared to a human soul, even the few dozen that make up a phoenix lord would be the equivalent of a phenomenal amount of human souls).

Humanity wasn't dying either, it had just lost its cohesion. Most of the million worlds the Emperor conquered during his crusade were ALREADY populated by people. Humanity was spread across the galaxy. Being a galactic empire wasn't necessary for their continued survival.

Hellebore

Drachenfell
03-05-2008, 14:42
There is nothing to suggest that the eldar were I'd are in any way more powerful or psychically attuned than the shamans that became the Emperor.And while the Eldar are a very highly psychically charged race, most fluff points to Humans having less but far more potent psykers.

The Emperor was created at a time when the warp was not contaminated by any chaos gods and is actually older than them. The shamans knew that chaos was coming and being created and due to their exceptional mastery of the warp knew that reincarnation was no longer possible for them. Hence why the immortal emperor was created.

I would argue that humanity was dying or atleast on the way out. Most worlds that has contained human life had been decimated by weapons of unimaginable power. Were mankind not united any smaller enclaves of humanity would have been easier prey to xenos or incursions via chaos. One may suggest the only reason such civilizations managed to exist at all (and none have notably existed outside of their own solar system) would be due to the imminent threat the Emperor and his children posed to chaos. Sapping any resources upon themselves from xenos and chaos threats rather than such enclaves bearing the brunt.

A galactic empire was crucial to mankind survival. Without one an fragmented mankind is piece meal for any space faring force such as tyranid, dark eldar or any other xenos threat that existed at the time.

Without unity mankind would have been brought to the point where only several small enclaves had escaped either destruction, irradiation, xenos influence and control or any number of other factors. Though they may have survived for a while, they would not have lasted if another force had come across them first. Read tyranid. Fleet incursions.

Sorry for the terrible typing. I'm writing from an Iphone. >_<

Idaan
03-05-2008, 20:14
Just to point out. In 40k one in a million humans is born a psyker. And that is only after the Age of Strife, during which the number of people with psychic talents grew rapidly to this level. Before that the number of psykers was far lower. Let's just be generous and say 1 in every 10 millions.
Now someone with archeological knowledge (Kage?) could give me the total number of humans on Earth in 8000BC? We're probably talking less than 100 millions, are we? So that'd be about ten psykers, one for every 10 millions of non-psychic men. But let's be generous again and assume that given the fact that these shaman had ability to reincarnate, their numbers accumulated from the beginning of humanity, with every one of them being practically immortal and new ones being born periodically. (That's assuming the reincarnation didn't occur by possessing the newborn psykers by the dead ones but rather that the number of reincarnated ones was on top of new ones).
Without devolving into some silly complicated calculations that should give us a thousand or two of psykers at best. And remember, most of them were very, very low grade, like epsilon or whatever the Imperial notation for average, low end psyker is. So with the really, really most powerful of them joining their souls to create the New Man we're about to look at the number of?
One - two hundred.
You can say that this is too low, but there isn't a way you could wind up with the number of "thousands upon thousands".


And while the Eldar are a very highly psychically charged race, most fluff points to Humans having less but far more potent psykers.
Then why is the Eldar soul described as far more bright in the warp and far more coherent than human soul? Why do the Eldar have to build their whole civilisation on the basis of protecting their souls from the Daemons wanting to rip them from their living bodies? Surely some, at least some human psykers, and I don't mean the expendable, Psykana Sanctioned Psykers but ones with real knowledge of what they are doing and what awaits them (like Inquisitors, Navigators etc) should have realised that their souls are the greatest snack for the daemons, even greater than the Eldar ones assuming that they really are more powerful than them?

And human psykers aren't "less often but far more potent". If you are talking about Alpha level psykers, then surely you don't mean that the Emperor is composed of some insane halfwits with life expectancy counted in days?
They don't count as useful psykers that could be leaders of people or whatever the shamans were, but rather freaks of nature. It's like saying that Penal Legionnaires are better killers than Astartes because they can blow themselves up with their demo-charges in middle of a crowd and kill more people than an Astarte would with his bolter.
On top of that there's nothing to say that the Eldar don't have psykers of Alpha capability and power: actually the Witch Path (and as an extension the whole Path system)is all about suppressing one's potential until he is skillful enough to control it and not endanger himself or others. There may be Alpha+ Farseers, only they don't unleash their whole potential.


The Emperor was created at a time when the warp was not contaminated by any chaos gods and is actually older than them. The shamans knew that chaos was coming and being created and due to their exceptional mastery of the warp knew that reincarnation was no longer possible for them. Hence why the immortal emperor was created.Seeing as most psychic powers are far more powerful in an area contaminated by Chaos (like EoT, Chaos consecrated shrines etc) I'd risk a theory that the lack of chaotic presence actually handicaps and weakens the psykers rather than the other way around.
And shamans are not older than Chaos Gods. Chaos gods came into existence after the War in Heaven. What you're talking about is the rise of Humanity as the major psychic "contaminator" and merely giving the Gods a more human shape or face. Speaking more metaphysically, the rise of Mankind and rise of its Warp presence just gave the vortices, the raw potential of Chaos Gods a channel to interact with Humanity and a new power source. It was only perceived as creation of Khorne, Nurgle, and co. In reality it was rather a true power filling the human-created and shaped concept of Rage, Despair etc. Saying that there weren't Chaos Gods before Mankindis like saying that there wasn't America until Columbus discovered it. It was there, only unreachable for most humans

Sorry, just felt like writing something.

EDIT: well, editted the errors.

DantesInferno
03-05-2008, 22:48
Just to point out. In 40k one in a million humans is born a psyker. And that is only after the Age of Strife, during which the number of people with psychic talents grew rapidly to this level. Before that the number of psykers was far lower. Let's just be generous and say 1 in every 10 millions.
Now someone with archeological knowledge (Kage?) could give me the total number of humans on Earth in 8000BC? We're probably talking less than 100 millions, are we? So that'd be about ten psykers, one for every 10 millions of non-psychic men. But let's be generous again and assume that given the fact that these shaman had ability to reincarnate, their numbers accumulated from the beginning of humanity, with every one of them being practically immortal and new ones being born periodically. (That's assuming the reincarnation didn't occur by possessing the newborn psykers by the dead ones but rather that the number of reincarnated ones was on top of new ones).
Without devolving into some silly complicated calculations that should give us a thousand or two of psykers at best. And remember, most of them were very, very low grade, like epsilon or whatever the Imperial notation for average, low end psyker is. So with the really, really most powerful of them joining their souls to create the New Man we're about to look at the number of?
One - two hundred.
You can say that this is too low, but there isn't a way you could wind up with the number of "thousands upon thousands".

Indeed, though your estimate of the global population in 8000BC is overly generous. <Wikipedia> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) puts the global population in 8000BC at about 5 million, not 100 million. So the numbers become even smaller....

Why were there so many powerful psykers in Turkey in 8000BC in the same place and the same time? Where's the archaeological evidence we'd expect for large numbers of psykers active in pre-historical human societies? Wouldn't daemonic possession have been a major problem? How did these stone age humans become so aware that they realised the risk of the Chaos Gods, and became willing to sacrifice themselves to defeat them? If humanity was producing such powerful and unprotected psykers so early, was daemonic possession a problem? If the solution was so obvious to a bunch of stone age shamen, why haven't a group of Inquisitors tried it?


In any case, I agree with the other points raised in your post.

sabreu
04-05-2008, 01:40
Well, to put it bluntly, if humanity sucked SO MUCH that it required a walking talking Deus ex Machina to drag them from the poopoo then in the galactic scheme of things they don't deserve to exist.


Right on!


Because repeatedly through the canon I've seen and heard of references to his constant, subtle guidance of Humanity. But if that's not proof enough for you, then I can't possibly argue with you.

I'm sure that's the way an Imperial scholar who believed in the Cult of the Emperor would write it. :D Personally, until they explain what he actually did in the broadest terms (he pushed evolution, or was a lobbyist for womens rights), we really don't know what the hell he was up to. Maybe he's the reason for global warming...


Who made Roboute Guilleman? Who brought the Imperium and Mars together? Who is the central figurehead of this religion you speak of?

What's greater: The Empire or the Conqueror?



Rather than ask, "Why kill the alien?" a better question would be "Why not?" :p

Well, I'm a xeno lover so that should give you a hint why i'm so stubborn to listen to imperial propoganda. :p


Yet even the Great Crusade was fought less by the Emperor and more by his full twenty (eighteen?) Space Marine legions of indefinite size. His point is that humanity has shown itself perfectly capable of surviving and often thriving without the Emperor to hold their collective hand.

That's exactly my point. It's my personal stance that humanity, even without the emperor, would survive. I credit the Emperor for seizing the opportunity to give our race focus during a time of disheaval, but given enough time another individual or group would have eventually accomplished the same ordeal (but perhaps not as grand or swiftly).

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-05-2008, 07:01
I'm sure that's the way an Imperial scholar who believed in the Cult of the Emperor would write it. :D Personally, until they explain what he actually did in the broadest terms (he pushed evolution, or was a lobbyist for womens rights), we really don't know what the hell he was up to. Maybe he's the reason for global warming...

Yeah, because 3rd person god perspective is always Imperial propoganda...

We don't know what he was up to, but do we really need to to know that, when it is said that he guided humanity through its darkest times?


What's greater: The Empire or the Conqueror?

Indeed.


Well, I'm a xeno lover so that should give you a hint why i'm so stubborn to listen to imperial propoganda. :p

Blatant heresy, then. Explains a lot. :p

Koryphaus
04-05-2008, 07:19
If humanity was producing such powerful and unprotected psykers so early, was daemonic possession a problem? If the solution was so obvious to a bunch of stone age shamen, why haven't a group of Inquisitors tried it?



Human Sacrifice ought to have taken care of the problem... :D

And I'm fairly certain that inquisitors still do it :p

Drachenfell
04-05-2008, 07:26
The number of shamans that created the Enperor were in their thousands. To take any guess at the number of psykers in 8000bc when there is even sparser knowledge on the number of psykers in the year 40k is jumping the gun.

We've no idea as to why the shamans were gathered where they were or as to their numbers in said place. You can't just say "it wasn't because there were only ten psykers in the population".

There is also a great deal of corroborated fluff which points to the Emperors powers. Though the codexes are from an Imperial perspective we have to remember that different factions have a much more different perspective if the Emperor than others.

The astartes for instance see him as a very powerful and gifted man. Not a god which tends to convey the fluff in both rule books and other books. But to say " The emperor is powerless was a terrible leader and everything that is said otherwise is just imperial propaganda" undermines pretty much everything Gw has written since rogue trader.

No humanity would not have gotten where it was without the Emperor. It is unknown as to whether we would have survived the dark age of technology without him. Its like you've watched Armageddon with Bruce Willia and decided "humanity can survive anything we don't need any help" as though were invincible. :P

Were not. Without the great crusade, the astartes, primarches and the Emperor warp travel would have been nigh impossible. There would be no way to unite mankind without the astronomicon because the vast distances between systems could not be covered conventionally.

Chaos would have progressed at the same pace it always had and worlds would be unprepared for such warp based assaults. Psykers would have gone unchecked and offered ready and wiling portals to the materium.

No imperial guard to stop and protect any major incursions and a lack of warp FTP would have left us completely vulnerable. It is not enough to say someone would have come along eventually we'd be fine. We were screwed until The big E united mankind and gave mankind the technology and plan to create the Imperium. He was also the only human immortal to carry such a plan through.

We are unaware of what he did during the dark age of technology other than he was powerless to stop it andbhad been guiding mankind since his conception. I'd you just want to drop that aside you still cannot ignore his subsequent acheivments which gave mankind galactic dominion.

I very much doubt mankind would have united in time to prevent the tyranid incursions or raids by xenos. There is just nothing on any scale or power to stop them. Not to mention it is likely Mars would have remained independent. We know that the only reason they joined the Imperium is because they recognised the Emperor as the omnissiah.

Fluff also confirms the Emperors psychic might such as the annhilation of horuss soul from existence which is later confirmed when bile made a clone of him. The astronomicon. The primarches. The great crusade, possibly and arguably the most powerful psykes in existance. He gave the imperium all of this and its very narrow minded to dismiss that offs the bat.

To the above poster. Chaos did not exist at the time of the shamans. There would have been ni chaos possession or daemon incursions since they did not exist. It was because they sensedbthe creation of the chaos gods and their powers of reincarnation were dwindling that the Emperor was created to combat what was coming and polluting the warp.

P.s The shaman story fluff states the Emperor predates the chaos gods

The Eldar need to be careful of their souls because Slaanesh actively huntsvthem in a personal capacity. Not because they are more psychically charged. There is nothing to suggest Slaanesh is drawn to them slept because they are all latent psykers. In addition therebis plenty of fluff pointing to alpha and greater level psyker populating and plagueing the imperium. Apex twins, eisenhorn, the Emperor. Name me one elder that comes close to that save Eldrad. I'm more inclined to beleive that the Elder are a much more psychically tuned and knowledgeable race but lack the raw power of the top level human psykers.

Though I could accept daemons and Slaanesh are more drawn to concentrations of Elder due to the latent psychic ability of every Eldar, I stand by the opinion that humanities psykers though rare, are psychically more powerful or atleast have a greater potential to be so.

Caelnaethon
04-05-2008, 11:33
The number of shamans that created the Enperor were in their thousands. To take any guess at the number of psykers in 8000bc when there is even sparser knowledge on the number of psykers in the year 40k is jumping the gun.
But were these thousands all in one place, or spread out worldwide? Did any of them have any children?

We know psychic ability is a genetic thing for humans - a mutant trait that by all accounts didn't appear until the Age of Strife. If that genetic trait already existed in 8000 BC, to the extent of allowing reincarnation, no less, why did it disappear - unless the shamans (shamen?) who sacrificed themselves were the entire world's population of psykers, including children? If they were, how and why were they all in communication and total agreement about the need to kill themselves?


Of course, if we do away with that genesis we are stuck with the Emperor as only a man, with considerably less power than he would have otherwise had.

I would feel very uncomfortable if the emperor as man was still capable of scaring the gods of chaos and/or fighting the warp in the manner attributed to him.
This attribution is (in my experience) always either very vague, or made in-character (and we're hardly going to trust Ministorum catechism to give a fair and balanced account of the Emperor :D). As has been mentioned, Chaos is older than humanity, and was really a very weak power in the galaxy until the Fall of the Eldar opened the Eye of Terror and the Emperor unwittingly delivered nine legions of the galaxy's finest warriors into their control. What great feats of power do we know for certain the Emperor has performed - bearing in mind that he's got to beat the greatest achievements of Tigurius, Mephiston, Eldrad and any given Alpha Psyker to grab our attention here?

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-05-2008, 11:38
He scared all four of the Chaos Gods ****less with a psychic blast that obliterated Horus' soul when he was possessed by all of them.

How's that for some psychic might? Or is that, too, just Imperial propoganda?

While we're discussing that, I think that the Ministorum or any other groups that would glorify the Emperor would know that he guided Humanity since 8000 b.c.- they really know little about him, other than the fact that he drug Humanity out of its disunity and dark-age, and has been sacrificing all for them for ten thousand years. So the idea that those groups are just making up the Emperor's backstory seems, to me, bizarre.

I'll dredge up a few accomplishments which will no doubt be shot down as either propaganda or meaningless tomorrow. For now I need some sleep.

Drachenfell
04-05-2008, 12:05
The fluff goes that all shamans were in communication via the warp. At the time an undisturbed paradise that could be moulded at their whim. After a time the shamans realised that reincarnation was getting a lit harderbti the point that they realised they would lose this ability in a few generations. It is said that they knew without them to guide humanity, mankind would fall by the way side.

They all gathered in one place though it is unknown where, and discussed in a great council on what to do. Eventually they came to the conclusion that the warp was becoming polluted and that they would no longer be able to guide and protect humanity. As a result all the shamans on earth at that time commuted a mass suicide in the hopes of joining their collective powers consciousness and will in a form that was truly immortal and would never need to reincarnate.

The result was the Emperor. A process that could only have been attempted at that time when the warp was somewhat pure.

Communication would almost certainly be via the warp and the shamans would have included men women and children. We also don't know if the psyker gene is hereditary. I would hazard a guess that it is a random mutation and cannot be traced via lineage.

The Emperor had enough power as Dominatas says, to scare the four chaos gods out of horuses body with his true might. Said to be like a super nova going off in the warp. He brought technology of the primarches and the space marines to mankind. Powered and created the astronomicon. United mankind. Kept and keeps the chaos gods at bay. He alliances the Imperium and mars due to him being recognised as the omnissiah. He saved and guided mankind since 8000bc.

And even when it all went to he'll and the legions became traitor, he gave his physical form to save mankind. That is far above any librarian or any single creature that has existed in the 40k universe if you ask me.

And the Emperor is older than the four chaos gods. Chaos had only just come into being at the time of his conception. Certain fluff points to humanity being the true root of the four. What is certain however is that the warp was untainted by chaos at the time of the Shamans and they were masters of it. Unfortunately I've nothing that I can offer as to whether there were other shamans that refused suicide. As I read it though, I would suggest that the decision was made by the shamans in their entirety.

Idaan
04-05-2008, 13:21
The number of shamans that created the Enperor were in their thousands. To take any guess at the number of psykers in 8000bc when there is even sparser knowledge on the number of psykers in the year 40k is jumping the gun.Show me the source for this "thousands" figure. Does it say so in the outdated "Slaves to Darkness" and "Lost and the Damned" books? Because I've never before heard that there were so many of these psykers.

There is also a great deal of corroborated fluff which points to the Emperors powers. Though the codexes are from an Imperial perspective we have to remember that different factions have a much more different perspective if the Emperor than others.

The astartes for instance see him as a very powerful and gifted man. Not a god which tends to convey the fluff in both rule books and other books. But to say " The emperor is powerless was a terrible leader and everything that is said otherwise is just imperial propaganda" undermines pretty much everything Gw has written since rogue trader.OK, it's all from some perspective. But now you're doing exactly the same thing you're trying to prove as wrong: that one side of the story shown in the GW publications is definately true and the other completely false. Just read the other people's posts again. Nobody is saying that the Emperor was a "weakling seer" nor a "corpse god" nor "false Emperor" or any other epithet found in Eldar, Chaos or Tau codices. We are merely trying to prove, that the view of the Emperor in the Imperial publications as THE greatest psyker, leader, warrior, scientist of all times doesn't have to be entirely true. That for example the "blows strong enough to level planets" in Bill King's old HH story are a homerian metaphore. All these over the top things about him can be explained as metaphore, Imperial hagiography, myth etc. But we're still left with the man responsible for creation of the second greatest empire in history, approaching in size the domains of C'tan at their height (if we're to believe MvS's timeline, they encompassed 98% of galaxy before the Enslaver plague). It doesn't take away any of his coolness that he wasn't a be-all end-all Gary Stu. Quite on the opposite, the fact that he was fallible makes him more interesting character. It's the same business as with Ollanius Pius: the fact that the whole story didn't occur as described doesn't diminish it.


Fluff also confirms the Emperors psychic might such as the annhilation of horuss soul from existence which is later confirmed when bile made a clone of him.Nobody denies it. But we don't know if this is so much of a feat. And exactly what does soul have to do with cloning I don't know - never understood that story.
The astronomicon.It requires human sacrifices to the Golden Throne and living sacrifice of Adeptus Astronomica to work. The Emperor isn't creating and powering it, but rather directing.
The primarches.Yes, that's a feat. But we don't know if it was his work alone.
The great crusade,Already expressed my opinion about this one, that it was truly his greatest deed. That Mankind wouldn't create it without him.
possibly and arguably the most powerful psykes in existance.But that one I will never agree on. We didn't see him in direct comparison to any other skillful psyker, and we already know that some of them foresaw things he didn't. Also, please define what you mean by "powerful" - raw power, skill, experience?


P.s The shaman story fluff states the Emperor predates the chaos godsAlso that story also predates all the subsequent ones about Chaos being the fruit of War in Heaven. And it never made much sense to begin with, IMHO at least.


The Eldar need to be careful of their souls because Slaanesh actively huntsvthem in a personal capacity. Not because they are more psychically charged. There is nothing to suggest Slaanesh is drawn to them slept because they are all latent psykers. In addition therebis plenty of fluff pointing to alpha and greater level psyker populating and plagueing the imperium. Apex twins, eisenhorn, the Emperor. Name me one elder that comes close to that save Eldrad. I'm more inclined to beleive that the Elder are a much more psychically tuned and knowledgeable race but lack the raw power of the top level human psykers.

Though I could accept daemons and Slaanesh are more drawn to concentrations of Elder due to the latent psychic ability of every Eldar, I stand by the opinion that humanities psykers though rare, are psychically more powerful or atleast have a greater potential to be so.
The Eldar codex cares to disagree with you:

If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry to that of an Eldar.
Eisenhorn wasn't an alpha, was he? Aphex twins didn't have any idea of what they are doing. And the Emperor couldn't be an alpha per se, because all alphas end up possessed or with their heads blowing up due to their raw power and inability to control it. That would be quite counterproductive for the shamans to try to avoid death by creating a being that would die a nasty death on first occasion.


In addition therebis plenty of fluff pointing to alpha and greater level psyker populating and plagueing the imperium. Apex twins, eisenhorn, the Emperor. Name me one elder that comes close to that save Eldrad. I'm more inclined to beleive that the Elder are a much more psychically tuned and knowledgeable race but lack the raw power of the top level human psykers.We didn't see any other Eldar psyker with ten thousand years of experience. You see, as I've already said, the Witch Path's goal is to suppress potential until you are skillful enough not to endanger anyone. Most of the Farseers and other practitioners of it don't use their full potential and in fact try to avoid using their powers when not needed. They are perfectly able of turning their enemies inside out, but the problem is that it doesn't make these enemies any more dead than those killed by blocking one vein in their brains.

There isn't anything to say that there are no Eldar alpha grade psykers. Only that they aren't running around "splitting Battle Titans in two" or other such nonsense. They wait until they acquire enough experience to unleash their full potential without risking their lives. But most of them die of old age or crystalise in the Dome of Crystal Seers before that.


He scared all four of the Chaos Gods ****less with a psychic blast that obliterated Horus' soul when he was possessed by all of them.

How's that for some psychic might? Or is that, too, just Imperial propoganda?
Read Legion. And even without, didn't it ever occur to you that the Chaos Gods reached their exact objective on the "Vengeful Spirit"? How would the Imperium ruled by Horus be any different than the one we have now? It'd be exactly the same food source for the Gods as it is now, only that it wouldn't last that long.

Also, as I've already said, the story about him scaring away the Big Four is the same in which his blows are strong enough to level planets and he has a halo the brightness of supernova. Talk about epic verses.


he gave his physical form to save mankind. That is far above any librarian or any single creature that has existed in the 40k universe if you ask me.Not mentioning these Imperial Guardsmen who give their physical forms for Mankind in their thousands every day. ;)

Sorry if I went too far at some points. As I said, I truly and sincerely love the Emperor as a character from the moment I read his story. But I also love the fact about the 40k universe that nothing is 100% true any given time and that it's so open to interpretation, so full of lies and propaganda. Something that the Horus Heresy series seems to take away.

Hellebore
04-05-2008, 14:04
He scared all four of the Chaos Gods ****less with a psychic blast that obliterated Horus' soul when he was possessed by all of them.

How's that for some psychic might? Or is that, too, just Imperial propoganda?


I don't know how it would be propanganda, the ecclesiarchy doesn't go around discussing the chaos gods (how would they know about it in the first place?).

I believe the line said something like 'the chaos gods recoiled in fear/shock' when Horus was destroyed. This doesn't mean much at all. I recoil from spiders that appear on walls next to my face, it doesn't mean I'm scared crapless by them, or that there is anything TO be scared of. I also recoil in fear from circular saw blades about to chop off my pinky finger - doesn't mean I personally am in mortal danger. As far as I know, the quote (of which I can only remember one) describing the chaos gods retreating from Horus does not make any statement about them believing the Emperor could kill them or that the blast that destroyed horus would have done the same to them.

Or to put it anther way, I might be having fun playing around with a spider, poking it etc when suddenly it jumps right at my face. Well that scared the crap out of me. I wasn't in immenent danger of certain death, but it made me jump back because I didn't realise it could do that. The emperor destroying horus could have been a similar thing. The chaos gods were scared because of the unexpectedness of it - that upstart emperor can JUMP! Who'd a thought it?

I mean let's put it in perspective. The Emperor was dying. Horus had all but destroyed his mortal shell. His energy was almost used up after fighting for god knows how long. He used the last reserves of his strength to destroy Horus' soul completely.

If that attack was capable of destroying the chaos gods, in the state the emperor was in when he made it, well he could have pretty much clicked his fingers in the middle of the crusade and POOF! no more chaos gods without ever having to go through the pain of the heresy. Just a bit of 'I'll be back in a sec' and they're gone.

Considering the (volumetric) power difference between the emperor at that time and the chaos gods, the most he could have done is chop off their respective pinkys. Certainly something to be shocked about, but not something that would make you fear for your life.

The emperor was composed of thousands of HUMAN psyker souls. Tzeentch is composed of MILLIONS of human, non human, psyker, non psyker. How would the emperor ever have been as powerful? Seriously, the emperor was made of psykers, Tzeentch is made of psykers. He also had access to the souls that formed his predacessors.

I'm taking the Emperorasman not the star child here.

@Drachenfells
What was a shaman? A human psyker with the ability to reincarnate. So they were psychic humans (so far nothing unusual) who could reincarnate (a unique trait). That's it. Nowhere does it say 'by virtue of reincarnation human shamen were capable of farting black holes'. Reincarnation is the only other trait given.

Now to the eldar. Their entire race used to reincarnate. Not just their 'shamans'. Add to this that becoming a farseer amongst the eldar is merely a case of TRAINING and nothing more. Amongst humans you are either a psyker or you aren't. Amongst the eldar being psychic is a way of life. Being a farseer merely a focus for that life.

No matter how hard a human trains they will never be a psyker unless they are born one.

Just like the eldar reincarnation, shaman reincarnation starts to end. For the eldar that end was Slannesh, for the shamans it was the turbulence caused by humanity in the warp.

Either way, they were still neolithic shamen. They had no technology and no knowledge of the universe.

The Lost and the Damned even says that they started out in Africa millions of years ago - well in humanity's evolutionary history that would mean that the first Earth shamans were actually Homo ergaster, or even habilis. Completely different species of hominid that were out competed and made extinct by Homo sapiens.

So we have shamans coming from an ostensibly 'inferior' species that keep reincarnating until they are in modern sapiens bodies circa 8000BCE. All they knew was the flow of the warp and how it affected their planet. They also had some capacity to use the warp to predict the future, but this is never described to the level of an eldar farseer who sees millions of possible futures and plucks the strands of fate to produce a favourable outcome.

The shamans in their 'infinite' wisdom decided that humanity could not exist without them and so they had to do something to keep themselves alive. They believed that the disharmony humanity was creating in the warp would ultimately consume them.

However, we know from the Necron codex that such warp disharmony had existed for 60 million years ever since the younger 'hot blooded' races formed. They tore the warp apart with their emotional outpouring.

Now what all this fails to explain is why there is such a huge gap in psykers in human history. From ~8000BCE to ~20,000 there were virtually no psykers and then suddenly they appear everywhere conveniently getting possessed and causing mayhem, despite the fact that humanity's earliest psykers had no problems controlling their power (reincarnation isn't a good enough excuse because the had to START somewhere).

So (as written in the Lost and the Damned) we have Homo habilis souls in Homo sapiens bodies despairing that they will not be able to reincarnate soon and their 'whole way of life' will disappear. They don't take dying well (as stated in the book) so have a debate on how to fix the problem. The only solution they could come up with was to commit mass suicide and somehow merge their souls together into one body, because for some reason this would allow them live on.

What they did was create a demi god. No one worshipped him at the time, so the Emperor could not receive more souls to power himself, he was stuck with the few thousand shamen that created him.

The eldar are creating a god right now by virtue of simply storing the souls of their dead in the Eternal Matrix. Sort of like how powerlines produce a magnetic field.

So I do not believe based on the evidence at hand that the emperor is particularly unique or powerful as a man. As an IDEA, a godform worshipped, well that's something different. But as a walking breathing man he wasn't particularly uber.

He certainly couldn't have destroyed the chaos gods as a man, or he would have done so. If a whole pantheon of eldar gods (powered by the potent eldar soul) could be destroyed by one single chaos god (supposedly the weakest) the emperor isn't much competition (considering that the eldar gods had existed for 60 millions years - 60 million years of souls accumulating to power them).

Hellebore

Drachenfell
04-05-2008, 14:32
If it is stated the Emperor created the Primarches, the Enperor created the prunarches. There is nothing to suggest he was helped and everything to suggest that they are his creations. It seems you're just taking everything the Emperor did and basically saying he didn't do if or we could have done okay without it. The fluff and the books do not corroborate this.

Horus was cloned after his death by Fabius Bile. When Abaddon came upon the clones he found them as gibbering wrecks. This is implied that they are this way because there was no soul to inhabit the body. It is stated that at the time of Horuss death he was inhabitted by all four chaos gods and they were sent packing by this psychic blast from the Emperor. I'm not sure but I remember Reading that it was like a supernova going off in the warp. Has anyone else accomplished such a feat? No. During the days when the Emperor was up and walking amongst mankind he both powered and directed the astronomicon alone. No hordes of psykers were sacrficed to him in those times.

The Emperor still guides the astronomicon even though he no longer powers it. This is beleived to be something only the Emperor can do. Don't paint it that he plays no part in it. He created it to start with.

The golden throne was inhabited for a few hours by Malcador, believed to be an immensely powerful psyker. He was turned to a burned out husk in a few hours due to the psychic stress. The Emperor sat upon it without any trouble for years. And continues to sit upon it and live.

He's immortal. He was powerful enough in his walking days to scare the crap out of the girding chaos gods into uniting against him due to his power. Though Gw has said that fluff is written from an imperial perspective, most fluff is written from a third person perspective and not from the eyes of the Imperium since it is highly unlikely that anyone in the 40k verse knows how the Emperor was created.

Secondly his powers can't simply be put down to propaganda. His powers are evident and have been backed up by books codexes and other info since rogue trader. If you're referring to the famous quoute by Gw staff that nothing is canon due to perspective, that's essentially just a "get out of jail free card" for Gw and you should take the fluff as its written instead of second guessing it. Especially established fluff.

No I don't think thatca guardsman who gave 100 years of life to protect mankind comesnclose to a walking immortal who has given over 40 thousand years and half of his own children to protecting mankind.

You still haven't given me any psykers of the Eldar who are as raw powered as the Human psykers I offered as examples. Again my opinion stands. Elder have knowledge and latent psychic ability along with rare individuals who have very powerful abilities. But mankind has psykers with more raw power than the Eldar.

In addition the Emperor is believed to be far far above alpha. Chaos gods are believed to be omega plus and Id put the Emperor nearer that.

To the warp stone thing. I have stars continuously that a normal elder is psychicaly latent. A human is not. But humans when they display the psyker gene have more raw psychic power than an Eldar. Or atleast the potential to have it. Elder scry the warp more often than not. Human psykers at their peak are described as flattening titans.

Nearly everything written about the Emperor DOES point to him being a great psyker and warrior and scientist. You're only argument that its not is that you think everything written in fluff and books is biased toward portraying the Emperor as something he is not. This seems narrow minded to me.

When I get home I'll have a dig around and find the Numbers for the Shamans. I'm sure it was in second ed rule book somewhere either way I shall update later.

The chaos gods wanted to kill the Emperor because he was their greatest threat. Legion does nothing to disprove this.

As of the last post I see nothing which would make me reconsider everything GW has ever written about the Emperor. Sometimes just because a statement is epic doesn't make it untrue. ^_~

Hey Hellebore ^_^

No where is it stated that the Emperors power comes from belief in him. Also I'm fairly certain it was stated that shamans were masters of the warp due to its purity at the time. I'll need to get my butt home to corroborate this.

Tzeentch is not comprised of human psykers. As far as I was aware the chaos gods are comprised of emotions and actions made manifest in the warp. Not actual souls. Second is we don't know how powerful thesebshaman were. Nor the process of creating the Emperor. It is said it was a procedure that could only have been attempted at that time. It may have been their power was magnified. Who knows? But most of the Reading points to the Emperor being on par with the chaos gods. They feared him. And it is written that they knew once he had the 20 primarches behind him he was unstoppable. That would imply their demise.

He understood chaos and understood how to destroy it. This is why they feared him

P.s Its all cool Idaan ^_^ discussion is good and its nice to see other peoples opinions . So no need to worry or anything.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-05-2008, 21:07
Read Legion. And even without, didn't it ever occur to you that the Chaos Gods reached their exact objective on the "Vengeful Spirit"? How would the Imperium ruled by Horus be any different than the one we have now? It'd be exactly the same food source for the Gods as it is now, only that it wouldn't last that long.

Will get to Legion soon. And yes, that theory has been presented to me before. It's an interesting idea, I'll admit, and plausible. I don't particularly see how this counters the fact that the Emperor's power alone scared the Chaos Gods; and I never suggested otherwise in the first place.


Also, as I've already said, the story about him scaring away the Big Four is the same in which his blows are strong enough to level planets and he has a halo the brightness of supernova. Talk about epic verses.

Epic verses indeed, but just because some of it is epic for effect doesn't mean that all of it isn't epic for realz.


I don't know how it would be propanganda, the ecclesiarchy doesn't go around discussing the chaos gods (how would they know about it in the first place?).

That was a rhetorical question. I wasn't saying it was, simply pointing out my opposition's propensity to paint many of the Emperor's accomplishments as propaganda.


*snip*

Not cutting down your arguments out of dismissal or anything, just for space. I don't have anything to counter, but I'd like to say that I agree with your perspective somewhat. You've got good points.

I never said the Emperor was stronger than the Chaos Gods, only that he scared them. Similarly to a saw that could chop off my finger, however, a dog menacing me could scare me. While I could overpower a dog, there's a good chance that the animal could hurt or maim me to a point that, say, another human could take me on and win. This is the perspective I see when thinking about that event. The Gods were not scared for their existence personally due to the Emperor, but due to the fact that they could lose some of their strength defeating him, and the other Gods would defeat them. While they were united at the time, we couldn't expect that to last, and if the balance of power had been disrupted, any of the Gods could have been unseated. None of them wanted that, so they 'recoiled.'

I hope the above is clear, I'm typing in a hurry.

Caelnaethon
05-05-2008, 12:52
Sorry if I went too far at some points. As I said, I truly and sincerely love the Emperor as a character from the moment I read his story. But I also love the fact about the 40k universe that nothing is 100% true any given time and that it's so open to interpretation, so full of lies and propaganda.
Just wanted to echo this. We are, after all, just championing our favourite versions of the story - which is always going to involve choosing to disregard a certain amount of evidence.

Generally speaking, I just find three major problems with the "ancient, god-like Emperor" idea. The first is that it undermines every human achievement, everywhere, ever. The second is that is in spite of painting humanity as incompetent, it's incredibly Earth-centric: humanity, the race that created three out of the four Ruinous Powers (despite only representing a tiny fraction of the galactic population) also conveniently produced this subrace of super-psykers, resulting in the Emperor emerging as some kind of cosmic balance to the power of Chaos... whose highest priority is still to protect the human race? Doesn't work for me.

The third problem is that it just doesn't seem to hang together with what came later. The Emperor made huge, naive mistakes in his management of the Imperium, and never used his vast power to make things right until it was far too late. For a normal human, uniting humanity, conquering the world and founding a galaxy-spanning empire is a staggering achievement. For a god, it's fairly mediocre. :p

Idaan
05-05-2008, 14:57
If it is stated the Emperor created the Primarches, the Enperor created the prunarches. There is nothing to suggest he was helped and everything to suggest that they are his creations. It seems you're just taking everything the Emperor did and basically saying he didn't do if or we could have done okay without it. The Fluff and the books do not corroborate this.If it is stated that Bill Gates created Microsoft Windows, then Bill Gates created Microsoft Windows without any help, carving its code from His divine Flesh. ;)
That's just not how the science works. At least not in the age of genetical engineering. Yes he was a great scientist, I don't doubt it, but he didn't actually invent all of this himself. He was using the technologies, the knowledge that predated... well not him, but his involvement with this matter at least. We don't know how much of that technology was his own invention.


Horus was cloned after his death by Fabius Bile. When Abaddon came upon the clones he found them as gibbering wrecks. This is implied that they are this way because there was no soul to inhabit the body.But the soul comes after the body, does it? It's the presence, the shadow of the organism in the Warp. The Afriel Strain clones acted exactly like humans. If that's true then they should've been gibbering wrecks too. Or any twins: they start as a single zygota, so they should have one soul:confused: The soul is the shadow of mind, not some separate sentience inhabiting it. That's what I meant by saying that it doesn't make sense.


It is stated that at the time of Horuss death he was inhabitted by all four chaos gods and they were sent packing by this psychic blast from the Emperor. I'm not sure but I remember Reading that it was like a supernova going off in the warp.How exactly does a supernova goes off in the Warp given the fact that there aren't any supernovas in the Warp nor is there anyone to see it? It's a metaphore.


No. During the days when the Emperor was up and walking amongst mankind he both powered and directed the astronomicon alone. No hordes of psykers were sacrficed to him in those times.I don't have the HH artbooks, but someone said that during the Heresy the burning out Adeptus Astronomica as a way of powering Astronomicon was established as a temporary measure, until a safe and humanitarian source could be found. Even if this isn't true, the Emperor was crusading for some time before the Heresy: who powered and directed the Astronomicon then?


You still haven't given me any psykers of the Eldar who are as raw powered as the Human psykers I offered as examples. Again my opinion stands. Elder have knowledge and latent psychic ability along with rare individuals who have very powerful abilities. But mankind has psykers with more raw power than the Eldar.That's because they suppress their potential until they can use it without danger as I've already said. Most of them don't live long enough - Eldrad did at least. But if they don't exhibit their prowess by flattening titans, there's no way of appraising it. I've never seen an example of applying the Imperial "greek letters" method to the Eldar, so you never know.
With the Imperials it's the opposite: every described psyker has been sanctioned and measured and as such has a fixed grade. The ones who weren't sanctioned are usually a great danger, with their potential being self-evident.


Nearly everything written about the Emperor DOES point to him being a great psyker and warrior and scientist. You're only argument that its not is that you think everything written in fluff and books is biased toward portraying the Emperor as something he is not. This seems narrow minded to me.I don't deny it. Just not THE greatest. I want a possibility of someone being greater than him at something.


The chaos gods wanted to kill the Emperor because he was their greatest threat. Legion does nothing to disprove this. But it might point to the true reason of them abandoning Horus. That is that they have already reached their objective, made the Imperium into what it is: a breeding ground for all the emotions that feed them.


As of the last post I see nothing which would make me reconsider everything GW has ever written about the Emperor. Sometimes just because a statement is epic doesn't make it untrue. ^_~I'm not trying to make you reconsider - it's a fictional game's backstory, and one that you can interpret in many ways. I'm merely trying to prove my interpretation is valid, based on logic and premises within the fluff.


P.s Its all cool Idaan ^_^ discussion is good and its nice to see other peoples opinions . So no need to worry or anything.I meant that I'm maybe trying to defend a lost cause. And that I'm having a series of secondary school certificate exams (well, sorta) for all that week and two in the next one. And instead of learning, I'm sitting here typing all this stuff. At least I can be sure about the outcome of the English exam;)


I don't particularly see how this counters the fact that the Emperor's power alone scared the Chaos Gods; and I never suggested otherwise in the first place.It may show the true reason of their withdrawal. I know it's written in the 3rd person perspective, but it doesn't mean it's the word of God. The 3rd person perspective doesn't equal omniscient narrator, at least not since the realists like Dostoevsky, and later writers. It's just a narrative method, allowing for a bit more objective view and changing of characters. But the narrator usually knows what the characters know. In 3rd person murder stories the narrator doesn't usually reveal the mystery until the end, even if he should know it. And he doesn't differentiate between truth and character perceived truth. At least that's what I've learned while repeating for the exams.

Now, we already have an example of it in 40k verse. There was a long discussion before I joined the forum on whether or not Eldrad Ulthran was alive at the time of Heresy. The proof was the short story in 3e Eldar codex about a tortured Eldar Ranger spitting curses at his human tormentors, among them that Eldrad foresaw the Heresy, but the Emperor in his blindness wouldn't believe him. But there were people who dismissed it as an example of 1st person perspective, that the Ranger couldn't know all that for sure.
Then someone came up with a quote from WD 287 "Heroes and Villains" article on Eldrad. It said exactly the same things as the Ranger, that Eldrad is "the pathfinder, the seeker, the true guide of the Eldar race" along with the Heresy bit, but it was rewritten from 3rd person perspective - probably only because the writer thought it was inapropriate to include the original short story.
And people accepted it as gospel because of the perspective. That got me thinking: is some statement more or less true only because it is written from one perspective or the other?


I never said the Emperor was stronger than the Chaos Gods, only that he scared them. Similarly to a saw that could chop off my finger, however, a dog menacing me could scare me. While I could overpower a dog, there's a good chance that the animal could hurt or maim me to a point that, say, another human could take me on and win. This is the perspective I see when thinking about that event. The Gods were not scared for their existence personally due to the Emperor, but due to the fact that they could lose some of their strength defeating him, and the other Gods would defeat them. While they were united at the time, we couldn't expect that to last, and if the balance of power had been disrupted, any of the Gods could have been unseated. None of them wanted that, so they 'recoiled.'Under that I could sign with both my hands and legs if only I was able to hold a pen between my toes.
That feat is so much more than anyone else could ever even hope to do, so epic, yet not going over the top.

Drachenfell
05-05-2008, 16:16
Hey Idaan,

There is a great deal of information which let's us know beyond all doubt that Bill Gates created DOS with his best friend at the time. There is information to indicate that a team of people worked on Microsoft Windows.

There is -nothing- anywhere that suggests, hints or corroborates that the Emperor (Over 40 thousand years in age and whom more than likely spent a great deal of that time perfecting genetics) worked with anyone on the Primarches. All sources on the Primarches and Space Marines in general cite the Emperor as their creator. Nothing else is mentioned. By your principle we can attribute the creation of the Necrons to the Old Ones, Khorne and a Tyranid named Unyuu. Why? Well it's not written anywhere but of course must have happened because it's not written anywhere.

No. Sorry I don't buy it. The Emperor is cited as creating the Primarches. The Emperor created the Primarches. He's 40 thousand years in age. The Primarches are cited as being his lifes work. I would suggest then -he- created them.

In terms of the Fabius Bile and soul thing. We know nothing about how souls work in the 40k universe other than on death it is released from the body and presumably snacked upon by daemons. There is nothing to state in which order the Primarches were fused with their souls. They are afterall depicted as warp infused beings on the same principle as the Emperor. The book however implies what I wrote above. Nothing you've said would make me put that book down and immedietly say "Well it can't be right because..."

The Emperor destroyed Horus's soul as it has been written and as a result the cloning was unsuccessful. That statement is corroborated by books and fluff. One of which is not told from an Imperial standpoint.

There is no fluff as to what happened during the crusade. However most tend to accept that the Emperor during his days when he was walking had both the power and presence to not only soully power the astronomicon but also direct it through the currents of the warp. This can be generally accepted due to the fact that at the time of the great crusade it is unlikely that there would be anyway to deliver the number of Psykers to the Emperor for him to feast upon which is not stated anywhere that he even needed to do this until after the creation of the Golden Throne and his internment which is explained by his previous fight with horus and the fact that he was under strength after such a titanic engagement.

It seems highly closed minded to say "There are no Supernova's in the warp and as a result there is no way that this statement can be true." in regards to his destruction of Horus. How do you know there are not any Supernova's in the warp? Or that the statement is not comparing the power of one to the incident occurring in warp space? Warp space is a tangible realm which you are able to enter and witness with the porper starship. If one was in teh warp at the time of the Emperor's destruction of Horus and had witnessed an event such as a supernova it would be highly feasable to look out the window and see the Emperor's action and compare it to a supernova (Though I'm not suggesting that happened) what I am saying is that it is written as such. There is currently nothing which would suggest to me it was untrue. Why would something written from a third person perspective like that have any reason to be?

I would suggest the Emperor is the greatest Psyker, scientist and warrior ever in the 40k verse. Why? Because there is no one that comes close. No one created 20 Super demi gods whom the Chaos gods knew would trounce all over them with the Emperor. He knew that through the abolishment of religion the Chaos gods would no longer be worshipped and would fade away. Through his great plan which had been since the time of the Shaman's he knew how to destroy chaos which is what made him so dangerous.

Though Chaos got what they wanted (The Primarches splintered and dead, The Emperor incarcerated in his throne) Codex Daemons points to Tzeentch losing a great deal of power after this and is now not the greatest and strongest of the four. This would indicate his plans are no longer goign as planned. In addition the Empror managed to halt Chao's great incursion into the material realm. Yes of course the Imperium would be different with Horus ruling than the Emperor. Under teh Emperor there would be no worship of the Chaos gods and eventually he would have created the Human webway and sealed them off completely. With Horus ruling the Imperium would be devoted to Chaos. Worshipping each of the four and perhaps ina constant state of war against each other.

The Emperor prevented this. And at great cost. Even now the Chaos gods certainly don't have what they want. Nigh most of Humanities potent emotions and will is going to the Emperor and not the four which would indicate that they have gained nothing from Horus's heresy save their own skins after the death of the Primarches and the Big E's internment (Which is stated as fact the reason they both scattered and corrupted the primarches was because they knew they would not survive the Emperor if he had them behind him).

If your reason for teh argument is solely because you want there to be a possibility of someone being greater than the Emperor then what would you say when that person appeared? Surely you'd want someone to be more powerful than them and so on. The Imperium has relied on the Emperor because he is one of the most powerful beings in the 40k verse. The warp storm "Storm of the Emperor's wrath" is attributed to his power which managed to gobble up an entire fleet. His power is exhibited through faith of the Adeptas Sororitas. And this is all after his internment.

As far as I can see -everything- points to the Emperor being an exceptionally powerful almost deity-like figure. He created a great deal of technology and utilities which not only united mankind into a coherant and powerful force he also kept teh Chaos gods at bay and scared the crap out of them, both in the creation of the Primarches, his mere existance, his plan and his power.

Fluff, books and pretty much everything written about the Emperor points to this. There will always be opinions presented in books written (Don't get me started about Lion El'Johnsons waiting to see who won theory), but both codexes and rulebooks have protrayed the Emperor as one, if not the greatest being in the 40k Universe. I've no reason to disbelieve that.

You've shown me nothing that would make me believe that the fluff doesn't corrborate that other than you don't think it should. Logically if everything written states he is what is stated. Then surely you can't blame me for thinking he is that.

I don't agree with Dominatus on he last part. I tend to like to believe that the Chaos gods were scared of his power. Simply because the one creature (Horus) whom they'd invested so much power and effort into suddenly was snuffed out like a candle in a hurricane. In an instant they got a glimpse of the true power of the Emperor and recoiled in horror at it. We always knew they were afraid of him. Why is it so hard to believe that his power was at such a point where he could scare the chaos gods? Yes the argument "Well why didn't he just walk up to the chaos gods and snuff them out if he was that powerful" Because it wouldn't make a good story. ^_~ Do I think he could have destroyed all four of them? Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean his raw power is in any way not a threat against them.

Even if he could have killed them in such a strike, it would not have solved the problem of the Chaos gods. Humanity was still dependant on the warp and was still corrupting it. Only through the realisation of his great plan could the chaos gods be destroyed permanently.

The Emperor has accomplished many exceptional deeds over 40 thousand years of life. He's credited with humanities salvation and the reason the Chaos gods don't simply steam roller us into submission. He created the greatest superhumans ever in the form of the Primarches, gave them legions of genetically engineered supermen. Gifted mankind with the Astronomicon allowing them to unite through the galaxy. Forged an alliance with the Adeptus Mechanicus who recognised him as the Omnissiah and likely would have created an Alliance with the Eldar who believe him to be Ynnead. His achievements are legendary and epic. I tend to see him that way when I read about him. Supernova's going off in the warp? Smashing planets? That's easy for me to attribute to someone who is credited with such a resume. Though I can also see how others reading it would imagine something different. So it's all good. ^_^

In terms of the Eldar stuff I'm still not convinced. Eldar psykers have an unparelled knowledge of the warp passed to them by the Old Ones. They know how to scry it and ride it. They have the webway and other such instruments to avoid it's harm. They are however not counted as wielding it as a raw power. Crushing fleets and destroying armies with it's might. Human psykers at their highest potential however are credited with such actions. The Eldar have knowledge and a latent ability in all of them. Humans have no knowledge and raw power. At least in my opinion.

Hay good luck in your exams by the way! I'm sure you'll do fine. ^_^ And don't worry about what I'm typing. 40k is all about interpretation and belief. My idea of the 40k universe is completely different than someone elses. If GW is anything it's ambigious. So never think you're fighting a losing battle when talking about fluff. I doubt GW are ever really sure about it ^_^

"The original name of The Emperor is not known. Of what is known, is known only by the Emperor himself: During Mankind's ancient past the Chaos Gods were yet to be born, and Mankind always had close links to the warp. Earth's shamans possessed prophetic powers and reincarnated after death. As Mankind grew and prospered however, the warp increasingly became influenced by the character of Mankind. Rather than being reborn into a new body, the shamans' souls were being consumed by the malign entities being created in the warp. All the shamans of Earth gathered at one place to decide what must be done. Presumably, thousands were there, and after many years of debate, they came to the conclusion that they had only two or three generations left before they lost the ability to reincarnate altogether, and that without their guidance, mankind would fall prey to the Chaos of the warp. They decided they must take their own lives in order to be reborn into a single, immortal body. A year after, the Emperor was born, the reincarnation of all Earth's shamans." - Lexicanum transcription of First Edition (Rogue Trader) indicating that thousands of Shamans were present and their warp powers. Additionally that the Emperor predates the Warp Gods.

Idaan
05-05-2008, 20:26
Whoa, it takes years to load that page. Some great input here.
But Drachenfell, let me restate my assumptions because you seem to stand against the arguments I've never made.

What I believe in:
1. The Emperor created the Imperium. While the Mankind would've survived without him, it wouldn't conquer what it conquered
2. The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods by hiding away their food ;) and promoting reason and healthy atheism
a) He however failed at this - after his encarceration the religion and worship began again. Even though it was the worship of him, it gave power to the Chaos
b) He couldn't have destroyed all four Chaos Gods combined or probably one of them while still in his body. If he could, why didn't he do it while still in corporeal state?
c) By difference between Imperium as ruled by the Emperor and by Horus I meant the Imperium with enthroned Emperor. It is close to perfect food source for the gods. It will last long and the Emperor, while shielding humans from Chaos cannot protect them all. Not trying to decide what's beyond and what's within his might: it's just people who don't believe strong enough aren't redeemed.
3. The Emperor was a great psyker. But there was no comparison between him and any other powerful psyker at equal terms. He wasn't sanctioned, so there's no evaluation of his power in objective terms. So we cannot compare his power to for example Eldrad (who seems to be main competitor), especially, when they displayed it so differently. (see later)
a) He destroyed Horus' soul. Given the fact that all human souls are destroyed after death - except very, very few individuals, pretty much all of them exceptionally powerful psykers (which Horus wasn't. Neither was he a Daemon Prince or other warp entity) it's debatable if it was such a great sign of his power.
4. The Emperor was a great scientist. He created the Primarchs. But it wasn't his work alone. Unless you want to argue that Watson and Crick were one or rather two of his many aliases. He worked up from the principles laid by people before him. He was the first one to create them, but he wasn't alone.
5. The Emperor guides the Astronomican, but doesn't power it.
a) I remember it being created as a temporary measure before the Great Plan was completed. I don't however have a source for that
b) I don't believe that he was directing and powering it by himself from the other side of the Galaxy. That's over the top for me. No argument to support that.
c) by the people drained to power it I didn't mean low level psykers offered to the Throne: this started after the Enthronement, and it has to do with powering the Emperor, not the Astronomican. I mean Adeptus Astronomica, who are trained psykers and volunteers: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Astronomica
6. The Emperor after the Ascension became a god. A true warp god. Not the like of unwanted, parasitic Chaos gods, but a directed, described, and conscious god like Khaine, Gork and Mork and that Hrud god with an apostrophe.
a) He's no longer a human with a powerful soul and psyker talent, but a warp entity
b) souls of his faithful empower him
c) I agree with Acts of Faith, Storm of the Emperor's Wrath are products of him.
d) His feats after his ascension cannot be used to explain his power before it and the other way around. His nature and base of power is different. Only his identity stays.
7. Not everything about him that is written is true:
a) some parts are metaphore or hyperbole: like the supernova, planet shattering blows, earth
b) some parts are hagiography: like what's described in Infantryman's Uplifting Primer or stories about him lifting his sword made of fire and smiting evil, erasing it from the existence
c) some can be explained otherwise and are dependant on the point of view: like the reason of Chaos Gods' withdrawal
d) some are illogical. For me at least.
e) some are over the top. Again, for me at least

Now to the minor points:
1. Dead Horus and cloning: I'm not arguing that he couldn't destroy his soul. I'm only saying that I don't understand the connection between soul and cloning as whole.
2. Comparison between most powerful Eldar psykers and human psykers:
a) The Eldar psykers don't exhibit their whole raw power, so it's impossible to define how much of it they have
b) There is no evaluation system for Eldar psykers to compare to human one. Hell, we don't even know how does the Imperial assignment system work
c) When measuring raw power, we cannot define if scrying the future 10000 years into future with all the possible outcomes requires more raw power input than splitting a Titan in half. If you've read Dark Heresy: which one would have bigger Power Threshold
d) It's therefore impossible to prove that Imperial psykers are stronger than Eldar or the other way around

I never heard about the Eldar proclaiming him Ynnead, mostly because the concept of Ynnead didn't come until there were enough souls in the Infinity Circuit to form at least kernel of his power. And there weren't until some millennia after the Heresy. Care to elaborate?

Thanks for that Shamans quote. I'm proved wrong. I could argue that it says that "Presumably thousands were there", but I don't know for sure.

But for the age of Chaos, I have to disagree. The Necron Codex which is a newer publication states that Chaos was created when children races of the Old Ones gained sentience. It overrides the older version, but both are canon according to BL - you choose which one you prefer. So that interpretation of word 'canon' has good sides as well.


By your principle we can attribute the creation of the Necrons to the Old Ones, Khorne and a Tyranid named Unyuu. Why? Well it's not written anywhere but of course must have happened because it's not written anywhere.No, because it's written exactly the opposite: that they evolved all alone, and that it was this which caused their defiance to the Old Ones. So that example goes against established fluff, whereas mine about Primarchs just fills the gaps.


There will always be opinions presented in books written (Don't get me started about Lion El'Johnsons waiting to see who won theory), but both codexes and rulebooks have protrayed the Emperor as one, if not the greatest being in the 40k Universe.And what makes you think that that Lion el'Jonson bit isn't the one which is true? The logical answer would be that majority of fluff points in other direction. But it wouldn't be the first time in history or in literature that something popularly accepted as true is false, while the obscure theory that no one believes in is truth. I think that it is in fact your preference which makes you believe one over the other. And one more thing:


Yes the argument "Well why didn't he just walk up to the chaos gods and snuff them out if he was that powerful" Because it wouldn't make a good story. ^_~

That's exactly my point of view. Only that I prefer deeply flawed characters without any powers. That's what makes a good story for me: a hero who is one of the best at something trying to achieve something and failing. Guess that says something about my world outlook.


Hay good luck in your exams by the way! I'm sure you'll do fine. ^_^ And don't worry about what I'm typing. 40k is all about interpretation and belief. My idea of the 40k universe is completely different than someone elses. If GW is anything it's ambigious. So never think you're fighting a losing battle when talking about fluff. I doubt GW are ever really sure about it ^_^Thanks very much!:D

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-05-2008, 23:41
It may show the true reason of their withdrawal. I know it's written in the 3rd person perspective, but it doesn't mean it's the word of God. The 3rd person perspective doesn't equal omniscient narrator, at least not since the realists like Dostoevsky, and later writers. It's just a narrative method, allowing for a bit more objective view and changing of characters. But the narrator usually knows what the characters know. In 3rd person murder stories the narrator doesn't usually reveal the mystery until the end, even if he should know it. And he doesn't differentiate between truth and character perceived truth. At least that's what I've learned while repeating for the exams.

Alright. Good luck on your exams. You seem to have your material down.


Under that I could sign with both my hands and legs if only I was able to hold a pen between my toes.
That feat is so much more than anyone else could ever even hope to do, so epic, yet not going over the top.

I'm going to be honest. I have no clue where you're going with this.

Drachenfell
06-05-2008, 08:31
Hey again Idaan.

I'm on my phone again so you guys will need to excuse my cruddy typing and often hilarious typos (prunearches?). Anyway let's get to it.I don't agree with point 1. Simply because I don't think mankind would have become a coherent and powerful force in time to halt the problems the Imperium has faced over the last 10thpusand years. There would be no astronomicon and no warp travel. No space marines and primarches. No great crusade. Mankind would never have been steered along paths to avoid and combat chaos by the Emperor. It is highly likely that without him mankind would have perished prior to or at the dark age of technology. I just can't accept that mankind would have gotten through it solely because were resilient. We have relied on great heroes and men to unite us in our darkest times in history. I see no reason why this would be any different. After all the Emperor IS Human. He is just the New Man.

I agree with point 2 but not a, b and c. The Imperium is not a source of food for the gods. Mainly because all the Enotiina that make them grow and prosper are now directed to the Emperor. Though there is war it is war in the Emperors name. There is no sorcery to fuel Tzeentchs plans and hedonism is often frowned upon. All gods do not draw their power from simply the act but from extreme levels of this act. Khorne draws his power from souls whom revel in combat and live for it. Slaanesh from those that experience the greatest levels of pleasure and ebauchery and so on. Yet those that war do so in the Empreirs name. They fight for him. Decadence is minimal I'd suggest in the conservative imperium. I'd wager the gods are not getting anywhere as near as much as if Horus was in charge and dedicated entire systems to their worship.

In terms of destroying the chaos gods I'd say that their destruction is harder than simply throwing raw power at them. Indeed Id suggest it was only through the Emperors plan that they could be defeated. However in the Warp the chaos gods are immensely powerful it may be that they are completely immortal. It may have been only when they inhabited Horuses body and gave a part of themselves material form that the Emperor could harm them. The opposite side to this however is why don't the chaos gods simply unite and crush the Emperors warp self? I like to think the Emperor is an aneatheme to them. They can be significantly harmed by his power and knowledge of them. I don't think he could destroy them. But that doesn't make him any less of an awesome threat. On the flip side I don't think the chaos gods could destroy him otherwise they would not have needed Horus. Which is why I often put the Enperor on equal footing with the chaos gods when he was alive and now incarcerated is far more powerful with so those worship him. On his awakening he will be unstoppable. Just my opinion though.

Comparing Eldras to the Emperor (And I quote someone who's name I can't remember) is like comparing a high powered hand gun to HMS hood. The Emperor was a psychic juggernought. I've never read that the astronomicon was tenporary but thatcwould fit in with his plan to hijack the webway. However there is nothing to suggest that there was anything else tobpower it while he was alive. The sheer number of souls powering it currently are immense and take the inquisitions ships from the entire galactic imperium. Such a number of souls would not have been available during the crusade and I doubt very much the Emperor would have allowed it. Migh all evidence points to the astronomicon being powered and guided solely by him as a secondary function. A testament to his psychic might. All we know is that he no longer powers the astronomicon. Not that he ever didn't power it. Remember there was no golden throne no psychic system till later in the great crusade and at the beginning of the heresy. The astronomicon wasnshining long before that. Again read on malcador the sigilite. The Emperors closest advisor and a very powerful psyker. He spent an hour on the golden throne and the psychic stress burned him to a husk. The Empwrir had been sitting on their far longer and suffered no I'll effects. I'd place malcador more along the lines of Eldrads power. Certainly he was no where near the Emperor in life.

I agree with point 6. But point 7 I don't. We don't know its hyperbole at all. Nor that its untrue. Why couldn't he have unleashed the force of a supernova? He's often depicted in collected visions wielding a sword of fire. Near all fluff supports his massive and over the top power. I find no reason why this would be untrue. Yes its over the top. But that doesn't make it untrue in any sense. He's not a psyker. He's the combined soul of thousands of the greatest human psykers his powers are very likely to be OTT.

I'm not sure about cloning and souls either. However I would suggest that it involves the body being a vessel. Cloning cannot work unless there is a soul to possess that vessel. When horuses body was cloned his soul should have returned and he would have been back to normal. Instead there was no soul to posess he body and it became a gibbering wreck.

Souls are not destroyed after the body dies. Imperial religion states that souls who die in the Emperors service go to his realm to wait until the end time. The souls of the evil go to their respective chaos gods for food, torture, possession etc. Souls however are rarely destroyed since I'd imagine them to be a very big commodity to the Chaos gods.

The Eldar proclaiming him Ynnead comes from the Inquisitor books I beleive. It is said that an Eldar faction was gathering up all the Sensei they could in the hopes to sacrifice them all at once thereby waking the Emperor whom they believed to be Ynnead and him then devouring Slaanesh.

There's no fluff to support. The Lion ever betraying the Emperor. He was a good primarch and had no reason to hate the Emperor unlike the other Primarches. I just don't see it happening. In older fluff he was so distraught about the Emperors incarcerationh he almost killed Leman Russ (who almost let him and didn't fight back) for not getting to earth in time.

I like my heroes like the Emperor. Though he isn't there now when he was around he was invincible. There was nothingnhe couldn't do and above that he was looking out for us. I like the idea that he may wake up one day and just put everything right. But everyone has different tastes in heroes. That's just mine. ^_^

Oh hay your welcome ^_^

DantesInferno
06-05-2008, 10:40
I don't agree with point 1. Simply because I don't think mankind would have become a coherent and powerful force in time to halt the problems the Imperium has faced over the last 10thpusand years. There would be no astronomicon and no warp travel. No space marines and primarches. No great crusade. Mankind would never have been steered along paths to avoid and combat chaos by the Emperor. It is highly likely that without him mankind would have perished prior to or at the dark age of technology. I just can't accept that mankind would have gotten through it solely because were resilient. We have relied on great heroes and men to unite us in our darkest times in history. I see no reason why this would be any different. After all the Emperor IS Human. He is just the New Man.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that humanity had already spread across the galaxy during the Dark Age of Technology, 10 000 years before the Emperor took power. If they could do it once, why not again? Unless of course you think the Emperor was behind that too, but that's starting to look like post hoc reasoning of the worst sort...

As for the "guiding humanity throughout the ages to combat Chaos", I really don't buy it. If the Emperor knew that Chaos was such a big threat, why was he so unaware of the potential for corruption spreading throughout his armed forces? Why did he turn a blind eye to reports of disloyalty and Chaotic excess within his Legions? Why were recruits like Typhon, Kor Phaeron and Luther ever allowed into the Legions? Why wasn't the Grey Knight program intiated before the Imperium realised the danger of the daemonic? And so on.


I agree with point 2 but not a, b and c. The Imperium is not a source of food for the gods. Mainly because all the Enotiina that make them grow and prosper are now directed to the Emperor. Though there is war it is war in the Emperors name. There is no sorcery to fuel Tzeentchs plans and hedonism is often frowned upon. All gods do not draw their power from simply the act but from extreme levels of this act. Khorne draws his power from souls whom revel in combat and live for it. Slaanesh from those that experience the greatest levels of pleasure and ebauchery and so on. Yet those that war do so in the Empreirs name. They fight for him. Decadence is minimal I'd suggest in the conservative imperium. I'd wager the gods are not getting anywhere as near as much as if Horus was in charge and dedicated entire systems to their worship.

The name in which blood is shed, for instance, is not important. It's the quality of the emotion experienced at the relevant time which affects what happens in the warp (as warp gods are sentient accumulations of similar warp-energy-emotion). So whether a Berzerker yells out "For Khorne!" or "For Kharnath!" or "For Argath" or "For the Emperor" as he hacks down his foe doesn't make the slightest difference.


In terms of destroying the chaos gods I'd say that their destruction is harder than simply throwing raw power at them. Indeed Id suggest it was only through the Emperors plan that they could be defeated. However in the Warp the chaos gods are immensely powerful it may be that they are completely immortal. It may have been only when they inhabited Horuses body and gave a part of themselves material form that the Emperor could harm them. The opposite side to this however is why don't the chaos gods simply unite and crush the Emperors warp self? I like to think the Emperor is an aneatheme to them. They can be significantly harmed by his power and knowledge of them. I don't think he could destroy them. But that doesn't make him any less of an awesome threat. On the flip side I don't think the chaos gods could destroy him otherwise they would not have needed Horus. Which is why I often put the Enperor on equal footing with the chaos gods when he was alive and now incarcerated is far more powerful with so those worship him. On his awakening he will be unstoppable. Just my opinion though.

You run the risk of taking the imagery a tad too literally. The Chaos Gods (and the Emperor's warp self) are much more abstract concepts. They can't "fight" one another except on the most metaphoric level.


I agree with point 6. But point 7 I don't. We don't know its hyperbole at all. Nor that its untrue. Why couldn't he have unleashed the force of a supernova? He's often depicted in collected visions wielding a sword of fire. Near all fluff supports his massive and over the top power. I find no reason why this would be untrue. Yes its over the top. But that doesn't make it untrue in any sense.

He couldn't have literally unleashed the power of a supernova because there wouldn't have been any of the Vengeful Spirit left (not to mention Terra, Luna and the rest of the Sol system). Lightning claws generally don't unleash power strong enough "to level planets".

They're perfectly reasonable when interpreted as mythic metaphors, though.


I'm not sure about cloning and souls either. However I would suggest that it involves the body being a vessel. Cloning cannot work unless there is a soul to possess that vessel. When horuses body was cloned his soul should have returned and he would have been back to normal. Instead there was no soul to posess he body and it became a gibbering wreck.

Nah, clones can apparently function perfectly fine without "souls". The Afriel Strain guardsmen were units of warriors cloned from the genetic material of Imperial heroes. Although the clones apparently turned out with abnormal warp signatures, they still functioned properly. Indeed, "souls" aren't essential to being a sentient creature (look at pariah gene carriers).


Souls are not destroyed after the body dies. Imperial religion states that souls who die in the Emperors service go to his realm to wait until the end time. The souls of the evil go to their respective chaos gods for food, torture, possession etc. Souls however are rarely destroyed since I'd imagine them to be a very big commodity to the Chaos gods.

Human "souls" dissolve in the warp upon death. Only the very strongest psychic signatures are able to remain sentient in the Warp post mortem.


There's no fluff to support. The Lion ever betraying the Emperor. He was a good primarch and had no reason to hate the Emperor unlike the other Primarches. I just don't see it happening. In older fluff he was so distraught about the Emperors incarcerationh he almost killed Leman Russ (who almost let him and didn't fight back) for not getting to earth in time.

Angels of Darkness suggests that Lion El'Jonson was waiting for the outcome of the Heresy before he declared which side he was going to support. This view of a pragmatic, cautious, secretive and suspicious Primarch is echoed in the recent Decent of Angels, and is increasingly plausible when you consider how closely it matches the subsequent behaviour of the Dark Angels.


I like my heroes like the Emperor. Though he isn't there now when he was around he was invincible. There was nothingnhe couldn't do and above that he was looking out for us. I like the idea that he may wake up one day and just put everything right.

He could do everything... except keep his galactic empire stable for a few hundred years.