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gondarion
16-10-2005, 17:21
Halberds have been a pet peeve for me for a while. The current rules justt don't represent the particular role of polearms on the battlefield, and they just seem like a poor man's great weapon. I think they should be somehthing like this:

HALBERDS: Two-handed weapon. Killing blow against mounted models. Fights in one rank when charging, and gets +1S. When charged, fights in two ranks at base strength, but the second rank only gets 1A per model, even if they have two attcks on their profile. In subsequent rounds, the player may choose which of these modes to use.

McMullet
16-10-2005, 17:50
I quite like that. It's the only fix with different attack types that doesn't invole lots of separate piles of dice for the same combat. I would suggest that the "attack mode" should count for the whole combat though, just to keep it simple.

Nekharoth
17-10-2005, 06:44
i like that idea. i agree that halberds didn't really work realistically in the existing rules.

i also think that the attack/defense combat modes should persist in subsequent rounds of combat, although maybe if the unit is charged (and uses the halberds defensively in 2 ranks), and then wins that round of combat and the other unit doesn't break - they can then swap modes and use the halberds offensively. this could also work in reverse if the unit loses combat and holds, but this is just making things more complicated...

what are your thoughts about the points cost of halberds given the new rules you are suggesting?

RGB
17-10-2005, 07:59
So far this may be the best catch-all summary of the thing that's applicable without changing army lists too much.

AS to the different modes: it may be better to continiue fighting in the same mode as in the first turn, that is consistent with how spear rules work.

gondarion
17-10-2005, 16:50
Hmm... you may be right about using the same mode you started out with. Although it could be changed if you win combat, as Nekharoth suggested.

As for points cost, halberds would cost more than they do now, but not much more. They are a specialist weapon, and not much good againt footmen. Well, unless we're talking chaos warriors here.

marv335
17-10-2005, 20:47
how about cavalry having to test to charge a unit bearing halberds. possibly with a modifier?

Tormentor of Slaanesh
17-10-2005, 21:37
how about cavalry having to test to charge a unit bearing halberds. possibly with a modifier?

They should do that against pikes and spears in that case, gud plan, cavavlry are too gud.
I like the killing blow idea and the modes. maybe cavalry should loose charging bonuses.

Nekharoth
18-10-2005, 01:51
i think it would be good if cavalry lost their charging bonus against units armed with halberds, spears or pikes, and perhaps chariots got only D3+2 impact hits*, rather than their full quota. but this should only be the case where the charged unit has at least 2 full ranks of similarly armed models. the cavalry should still strike first as per normal.

i don't think it's necessary to have cavalry take a test to charge thus armed troops. i understand there is a perception that cavalry is overpowered, but making halberd/spear/pike armed troops too powerful to compensate doesn't work either. i think the above should be sufficient to discourage players with cavalry from charging mass ranked troops fighting in multiple ranks.

*possibly would be good if ogres had their bull charge impact hits negated or negatively modified too. all that flab and muscle ain't so much use when you're charging a wall of pikes.

gondarion
18-10-2005, 02:32
I dunno, I prefer a more killy solution. I'm less in favour of a rule that lessens the power of cavalry than a rule that increases the power of infantry against the former.

mageith
18-10-2005, 15:02
Halberds have been a pet peeve for me for a while. The current rules justt don't represent the particular role of polearms on the battlefield, and they just seem like a poor man's great weapon. I think they should be somehthing like this:

HALBERDS: Two-handed weapon. Killing blow against mounted models. Fights in one rank when charging, and gets +1S. When charged, fights in two ranks at base strength, but the second rank only gets 1A per model, even if they have two attcks on their profile. In subsequent rounds, the player may choose which of these modes to use.
I think your rules are probably pretty good and probably might entice players to even use Halberds (the real goal), but don't reflect "the particular role of polearms" in one maybe two places.

The ability to change the weapon modes, AS A UNIT, is probably way beyond the ability of even the local sergeant to cause to happen. I like the rule in terms of balance. Perhaps if amended to choose modeS at the time of battle, such as: “When charged. First I'll take two ranks, then switch to one rank +1 Strength in ALL subsequent rounds.

We discussed the KB before and how knights just don't fall off a horse and die. Again, the net result is OK in terms of balance and enticement, it just sort of cheapens KB and brings another 'auto' thing into the game. It would be especially nice (too nice?) vs. mounted characters. Is that your plan?

Mage Ith

gondarion
18-10-2005, 21:30
Mageith,

I don't see KB as an "auto" problem, as you have to roll very well to get it, unlike auto-hit shooting.

Its effect on mounted units and particularly characters is more psychological than realistic, and are meant to be so. If you have a powerful character in your unit of knights yes, he could potentially be KB'ed by an empire halberdier, but the chances are minimal, mostly due to the fact that you'll probably wipe out pretty much all models that can attack on the charge, due to the halberdiers having a minimal AS. The obvious exception is chosen warriors, whose combination of tons of attacks and excellent armour would make the new halberds really scary. But everyone knows how expensive chosen warriors are; they should be damn scary! These rules would also allow them to do something chosen knights can't, which is a definite plus.

foehammer888
18-10-2005, 22:03
Well, the only problem i see is that those rules are rather complicated when compared to other weapon categories.

Historically, halberds/polearms were developped with several factors in mind

1) They weren't the ultimate way to kill cavalry or heavy armor, but they were the best way to give a poor, relatively untrained soldier a decent chance against an armored opponent

2) They were cheaper and easier to manufacture than swords, and usually required less training.

3) they were effective against the spear-hedge formations which had evolved to combat cavalry. The halberdier's decent reach allowed him to knock his opponent's spear-tip aside before closing for the kill.

I'm not sure how these would be best reflected in the rules. Perhaps giving halberds armor peircing, thus a S3 model with a halberd would attack at S4 and have -2 to opponents armor saves. The trick is to make them unique. You don't want to make them better or worse than great weapons or spears. Perhaps make them like cavalry hammers, with +2 S on the charge and +1 S after that.


Foehammer

mageith
19-10-2005, 03:08
Mageith,

I don't see KB as an "auto" problem, as you have to roll very well to get it, unlike auto-hit shooting.

Its effect on mounted units and particularly characters is more psychological than realistic,

An individual halberd hit has a 1/12th chance of KB a model. It can turn a game around if that model is the general or an important character. Upto three models can be in base contact so the net effect is 1/4th. This is the negative effect of using AUTOMATIC wound/kill rules. It can ruin a game, IMO.

Gabacho Mk.II
19-10-2005, 07:34
Quite like this proposal.

Remove Killing Blow vs mounted models, and this shouls pretty much make the halbred a reasonable (bad word to use) weapon.

I wouldnt adjust the points cost for the model at all. Leave the cost for the halbred as is, but rectify the overall costs for weapons, including halbreds, at the rulebook/armybook level.

Just a quick thought. :cool:

mageith
19-10-2005, 17:58
Quite like this proposal.

Remove Killing Blow vs mounted models, and this shouls pretty much make the halbred a reasonable (bad word to use) weapon.

I wouldnt adjust the points cost for the model at all. Leave the cost for the halbred as is, but rectify the overall costs for weapons, including halbreds, at the rulebook/armybook level.

Just a quick thought. :cool:
:) I think the point of the original suggestion was to somehow include all three edges of the Halberd as part of its rules. A Halberd is like a spear, like a axe and like a hook. It's not as good as any specialized weapon but very versatile. My alternative to KB was for the Halberd to hit at normal strength but have -3 Armor piercing to mounted models.

This is almost as destructive vs single models but less destructive vs. single characters. It is not an auto hit, which I detest, but actually uses the stats of the defending model. So a chaos knight is harder to pull down (T4) than a mere human knight (T3). Lightly armored riders are less affected (if they have AS 5 or less), as they, IMO, should be.

The common complaint about the three point Halberd rule is complexity. But currently the Halberd rule is very easy, don't take halberds. :)

Gondarion thinks the effect of the KB rule is mostly psychological. I think it's real. The vast majority of the time, the difference between KB and -3 to AP will be mathematically negligible, but sometimes, especially against characters, it's game turning on a die roll. That's why I don't like it and why I dislike all automatic stuff. It ignores the paid for stats. It increases the luck factor and decreases the skill factor.

In small does, auto stuff is OK, but giving KB warriors who "have honed the craft of killing into an art" (112) to common run of the mill Harberdiers is wrong at the fluff level and wrong at the balance level.

Mage Ith

DeathMasterSnikch
28-10-2005, 18:34
I think the KB would be fine but make it against cavalry models with 1 wound only. ( no killing dragon mounted models on 1 blow thankyou )

This way it doesnt effect an overall combat by much as a 1 wound model will usualy be easy enough to kill. Bar bretonians but they get enough advantages.

Then have armour piercing, double handed and +1 str possibly +2 if charged by cavalry but im not to sure about that.

Foehammer mentioned they were designed to be good against spearmen so I supose you could have something along the lines of a +1 save against spears to represent, I quote ' knock his opponent's spear-tip aside before closing for the kill '