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Kissaholic
30-04-2008, 21:15
Well I know some people who will let a person beat them on purpose if its there first game and I know some people who will not. I was wondering what does the warseer community think here are the pros and cons of letting a person who has never played before. at least what I think are

PROS: The kid has a blast and loves the game so he plays

CONS: The kid says you are the worst player in history because he beat you and he thinks he is the best 40k player ever always brags about it and cries cause he can never win becaue you really let him win the first game


When I started into fanstasy and I played my first game I lost and I was having no fun while I was playing and I almost didnt staty playing just because I had a ****** first time playing and since first impressions are everything its kinda hard to take them back but since im not a 9 year old I knew that I was going to loose and anyways and I should give it another try and the second time was more fun since it was against another player my level BUT hey im getting off track arent I?

If I am playing a game against someone that has never played I would make a list that seems really fun to play. Since I play chaos I would field 5 chaos spawns for example and I wouldnt wipe him off the board but I would try to make it a tied game since I find that close games are always so much more fun and I have a high point character on the field like Arhiman whos 250 points and if the other player has more troop on the field I just might say that he won even though I had more points on the field

I just want to know what everyone else thinks

Ifurita
30-04-2008, 21:21
I don't think that I would deliberately lose, but I would cut them a lot of slack (e.g., not bringing a powerlist army, point out obvious (to me) tactical flaws, and providing some suggestions about what kinds of options he has or threats my maneuvering might pose.

Aelyn
30-04-2008, 21:23
The trick is to not play badly (in the "My Skinks charge your Bloodthirster" style), but make decisions that are tactically unsound but valid under the Rule of Cool (namely, the "I could cannon your Giant, but let's charge it with my two remaining Trollslayers instead" style.)

Also, don't play tightly and letter-of-law, but let some things go. Just play to enjoy the game - who cares if his charge is 1/8" out, it's his first game so of course his 6" eye isn't in yet! I've also heard of a lot of people allowing pre-measuring in games with new players, simply because it can take a fair bit of experience to get your eye in.

Finally, give the other guy advice, but don't tell him what to do. If he wants to move his Marines to within 12" of your Berserkers to rapid fire, let him know that your guys are rather good in combat, but if he wants to do it, let him. He'll learn his lesson, but he'll know you were trying to help without being patronizing. And that's probably the most important single factor.

Sabbad
30-04-2008, 21:28
If it's their first game let them win. I don't think I'd advocate making stupid tactical decisions that even the newbie can appreciate as idiotic, but simply tilting the armies or scenario in one side's favour can make for a game that a new player can really enjoy. Winning is better than losing after all!

CommisarMolotov
30-04-2008, 21:32
I'll make bad tactical decisions if it makes for a better game. Hell, I'll do that with EXPERIENCED players, and not just n00bs. If I've got a choice between standing back and rapid-firing his last remaining HQ and unit into oblivion or charging in and making a fight of it - which one makes for a more memorable and enjoyable end to the game, eh?

...Of course, I don't play in tourneys and other "serious" games much anymore.

Eldoriath
30-04-2008, 21:47
I have given this a lot of thought and i have come to this conclusion:
If i were to play against a noob i would prepare two armylists to play with, giving him the list with the upper-hand. The lists would be concentrated on being fun to play and play against. Not any just stand-and-shoot or assault-everything-to-death lists, but a balance in betwen (sp?).
Also, i would give suggestions and remember the guy of units abilites. I e you know that you can move away with the crisis suits in the assault phase and stuff like that.

So, i would make sure that he is guaranteed to atleast obliterate one unit, though not give him a walk-over. Just... even out the odds a bit i guess you could call it. Give him the powerlist and myself play with the poor fluff-list kind of style.

Solasun
30-04-2008, 21:51
I would say, play a balanced army that matches well to their army and can give it a good run.

If you keep the game close but don't play to win or play to lose (or even play to draw!) but play naturally with a slight eye to helping them along then you'll have a good time on both sides.

You can offer some advice and such, it's only fair. Being clear and communicative helps.

This comes on my experience of my first fantasy game.

My Ogre Kingdoms vs his tournament Orcs and Goblins.

A basic all Ogre army facing off against Savage Orc Big Uns, Black Orcs, two spear chukka's and a doom diver plus a few goblins (spiders, wolves and a block of night gob archers)

Needless to say, I got slaughtered badly because I didn't remember marching and his guessing was honed and he just kept dropping goblins and bolts into my flanks.

Not. Fun.

I've kept at it but if I was to come up against that list again I'd probably be rather put out since it was basically set up to rape my Ogres in as many possible ways as can be done. =/

Actually, now that I think about it, same thing happened in my first Nid game. Swarmy battleforce army that just got pieplated. Didn't helpt that I had a Screamer Killer!

wickedvoodoo
30-04-2008, 22:01
Go for a smaller game, 500pts or so. Don't lose on purpose, no one likes to be patronised, but talk them through what you are doing and why, and talk them through any mistakes they make.

Johnnyfrej
30-04-2008, 22:39
I wouldn't let them lose per say. Rather, I would make it so he/she would have a blast whether or not he/she wins or loses. When I play rookies I usually make my list as fluffy and non-competative as possible. For my IG that would probably mean something like mechanized or a CC doctrine list. It probably wouldn't hurt to have the game around 500-750 points so if the battle is going in your favor it won't last a long time (most games I play at 2k last at least 2 hours).

Coragus
01-05-2008, 00:43
Never let a newbie win a game, but don't take advantage of their newness either. The first option doesn't teach them anything. The second option just makes you a jerk.

Pointing out stuff during a game is fine, but I feel it more important to have a serious post-game discussion where you pick apart the list. One of the most difficult things to figure out in 40K is how to make your list efficient and point cost effective.

BladeWalker
01-05-2008, 00:54
I have been teaching my 8 year old son to play recently. I do not let him win at all, instead I am showing how to do various strategies effectively by using them on him! He has started wanting to switch armies and play again so that he can try to mimic my effectiveness, then I show him how to counter what I did with the army he was using in the game before. Losing on purpose would only teach him that beginner strategies are all you need to play, he has a greater desire to play knowing that it is a challenge instead of a cake walk.

505
01-05-2008, 01:57
I don't lose on purpose but I tend to help new players along (giving takebacks and such) and I ussually get so carried away that I lose (most of the time)

AngryAngel
01-05-2008, 02:00
I'll play a fun game, and be very friendly and act out some things, give the game a sense of cinema. I won't make the soundest, most strong armed moves I could. Yeah, I let them win, congragulate them and tell them how they can make their list better.

I think, people know if ya let them win, but appreciate not making it too transparent. Everyone wants to have fun, and if ya let them have fun, get them hooked. They'll be in it for the long haul, and you can then lower the smack and let them now. They'd be foolish to underestimate their sensei of the warhammer world. Respect, that what its all about, just because ya lose doesn't mean you were the worst player.

CULCHAIN
01-05-2008, 02:20
-play to have fun
-explain your units do not let his army walk all over yours
-try ro give him a close win those feel better
-explain the tactics of deployment, movement and cover in a fun way
-do not be a rule monger

Lord Raneus
01-05-2008, 02:23
Cut 'em some slack.

For example, if they jump to shooting and forget movement, let them move. If they forget to charge with their really cool tooled-up uber-death mauler CC unit, let them. Don't deliberately lose, but let me put it this way: If you wouldn't punch a puppy in a crowded public place, don't gank a noob.

If you would punch a puppy, I suggest you seek help, immediately.

Draconian77
01-05-2008, 02:29
Play for the draw. Jeez its not hard. Any experienced player can force his way into a draw from ahead or behind most of the time.

Also point out what his units are best at and what your units are best at.
Try to explain some of the "Vital rules, I don't mean "Flank charges are when you get hit in the flank sort of vitals, I mean "The best way to get a flank charge is with a Blocker/Redirecter/Or flee response sort of vitals")

Actually it depends on their age. The really young ones just cannot play well IME, whereas the 17+ range can grasp concepts pretty quickly.

Oh, and play for a D-R-A-W.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-05-2008, 03:22
I don't know about absolutely "never played before" opponents, but sometimes the staff at the LGS ask me to play games against new players with huge armies who want to play everything in their collection (or play alongside their friend instead of against them for the umpteenth time), so I get into these games every once in a while.

I still bring my "power lists", but due to my own definition of "power lists" being a list that is balanced against as many different army types as possible, it's still pretty fair. (Or as fair as you'd call 30 Marines and 20 Chosen in 2000 pts.) My tactics against newer players are far sloppier than against people I know will bring a better game. For example: deliberate deployment in LoS, wasted Lashes, early movement gambits, throwing my basic Marines against uberdeath Characters in CC, and inefficient Obliterator weapon choices. I'm also very public about the weaknesses of my individual units, depending on how unfamiliar I think my opponent is against my army. In other words, I pretend I'm one of GW's playtesters. Y'know, those jokers who let junk like Nidzilla, Lashes, and Necrons through playtesting. I also encourage them to get in the habit of looking up their models' rules, statlines, and wargear, because even the best of us makes a mistake every now and again.

Most of the time I still win, but I suffer a ridiculous amount of casualties due to playing sloppy. The noob opponent still enjoys the game, seeing a wrecked Defiler and a pile of 30+ dead marines in a corner usually gives them some solace to a 1000-pt loss in VPs because I took two flank quarters in Cleanse to their none, though sometimes my dice are simply nicer.

A tricky thing about playing against new players is that, due to their inexperience, they're not as easy to trick as you'd think. Sometimes, noobs fall for traps hook, line, and sinker. Other times though, they ignore your bait altogether, not even recognizing the trap and missing it altogether. For example, using Genestealers as bait often trips up vets into making a mistake in target selection because they don't expect such powerful CC units to be used as throwaways. A noob will sometimes ignore a Stealer squad altogether (unless another vet kibbitzes) and only shoot them at the very last second, instead shooting apart my much more fragile Warriors and devoting anti-tank fire to Carnifexes, and this can sting a bit.

Tommygun
01-05-2008, 03:32
Maybe you could give the new player a small advantage. A few extra models or wargear.

Clang
01-05-2008, 06:08
I still remember my first game of Battle Fleet Gothic in a GW store against a newish redshirt - he crushed my fleet, wiped me out without taking a single casualty in return, helped just a teeny tiny bit by his extensive knowledge of the rules which I'd never seen before. It never seemed to occur to him that this was the worst possible sales technique - luckily I wasn't 12 and so didn't leave the store in tears... :) He didn't last long as a redshirt...

yeah, as other posters have said, BE NICE - you want this to be your opponent's first game, not their first and last game!

Griffo
01-05-2008, 06:36
I wouldn't loose on purpose. But what i would do is make sure that it's a fun game for both them and me. I would give them pointers and tips on how to play, clear up any rules for them, etc.

Ronin_eX
01-05-2008, 06:45
I'd play as I normally do and give them pointers throughout the game. A lot of 40k's tactics are knowing the rules and how they interact quite well and a lot of people can miss out on that which can lead to bad decisions from what would otherwise be good plans. I demo games a lot so I try to teach new players a lot during my games with them because I want them to become a challenging opponent when they aren't newbies anymore.

Reflex
01-05-2008, 07:01
What i do if i meet someone or introduce them to the game and its their first game is basically let them win.

but i dont give it to them. usually i will tailor a list that is completely opposite to the army. so usually i play a balance list, but say if they are playing tankless space marines, i will usually bring my eldar. in the list i will bring units that arnt great against the average marine. this way they are still learning and not getting a totally easy win.

BrianC
01-05-2008, 08:01
I have been teaching my 8 year old son to play recently. I do not let him win at all, instead I am showing how to do various strategies effectively by using them on him! He has started wanting to switch armies and play again so that he can try to mimic my effectiveness, then I show him how to counter what I did with the army he was using in the game before. Losing on purpose would only teach him that beginner strategies are all you need to play, he has a greater desire to play knowing that it is a challenge instead of a cake walk.I do something similar with my kids, if they are going to make a stupid move then I'll ask them what move I'll do to counter it. If they still insist on it then I'll muller their unit. What I don't do is try and wipe the floor with them through out the game, otherwise you could end up like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhpnrGBTRc).

If I'm playing somebody new I try to keep the game as close as possible rather than letting one side win by a big margin, unless they turn out to be an ass then I'll try to kick them all over the park.

pieplate
01-05-2008, 08:57
Hello new here. When it comes to playing newibes or people who have not played for some time it is important to assess there skill before you deside how harsh your gameplay will be. Some first time players are very good and have a better knowegde of the rules than some people who have played for years.

To a true newbie i would not let them win as this can be patronizing( it happerned to me in fantasy left the game feeling that a had just wasted a hour of my life). Beat them but don't be nasty, let the game last till turn 6, tell them where they went wrong, where to improve their lists, offer to play them any time, reassure them that you are a experienced gamer and not easy to beat.Help them to become good gamers that will be a creidt to your club. The hobby always needs new good players joining its ranks.

Mind you that said, if they are a bit big headed, telling you how good they are and how much they are going to beat you, i would treat them as any other gamer and play to my best (i had this from a necron player against my chaos, i got two turns he got one). Afterwards it is still important not to mock and try to help them be a better player.

the1stpip
01-05-2008, 09:14
I would have to say I wouldn't let them win, but I wouldn'y go all out for the win. Give them a chance, point out their options and when they make a silly move, and not take my Dark Eldar up against them.

ScytheSwathe
01-05-2008, 09:23
I played a game of fantasy a while ago, having not played in ages (ie. not in the current edition). Having made it clear he'd need to explain the rules to him, he deployed his (very) efficient chaos knight army list, I managed to kill one model. In a challenge. Utterly pointless.

I do know what you mean about big headed people though, i recently played some cocky kid at the store. he was bigging up his marine list, so out came the harlequin 'themed' list.....

Master Jeridian
01-05-2008, 09:34
I'd WAAC all in his face, then when he's crying- take his puppy and punch it right in the kidneys...

Seriously though, the main thing with a truly new gamer is to be patient, it's better to let them look up the To Wound table, etc and have the game take longer- than to spoon feed them the dice roll they need everytime.

I don't try to lose, but then my weak army lists (none of this netlist blandness) and rubbish luck mean I can't go on auto-pilot to beat a noob.

So, I generally don't win by a massacre using a netlist- that's no fun for anyone, not even experienced opponents. But I do try to win- it's both patronising and misleading to let them make lots of bad mistakes and win through them.

Norsehawk
01-05-2008, 11:14
play something small like combat patrol.
Don't bring your 'A' game
Don't intentionally throw the game.
Give them tips during the game, things like tactical advice, troop strengths/weaknesses on both sides, potential results of their tactical choices.
Don't bring an ultra tuned tournament level killy list to the table.
Post game explain what worked well, what didn't.
Offer to swap lists and play again.
Don't be a dick.

PapaNurgle
01-05-2008, 11:26
I like to play for a tie when I play someone new.

Try it sometime. You can play as hard as you want, but you have to exert better control over the game to keep things close. Getting a tie keeps someone from feeling like they just got crushed, but also avoids the "Geez, this game is simple" sort of thinking and keeps the 11 year olds from mocking you the rest of the day.

I also give advice, but more in the format of, "What do you think I'm going to do in response?" rather than, "Why don't you do that instead." That helps to teach them more about the whys of the move rather than just memorizing what to do.

marv335
01-05-2008, 11:26
I would play a normal game with a normal list.
I would explain what I am doing and why.
I will not play for any given result, but will allow the game to pan out as it will.
I also remind the noob about phases and show him/her tecniques for smooth play.(going from left to right moving, shooting and assaulting so as to not forget anyone)

Thud
01-05-2008, 11:47
Depends on his/her knowledge of the rules. If he/she has a little knowledge of the rules, I'll go through the game with him/her so he/she will learn as much as possible during the game, and who wins is unimportant.

If he/she has a decent knowledge of the rules on the other hand, I'll try to make it a close game and during the game remind him/her to move/shoot/assault with all units etc and explain what will probably happen if he/she assaults my Blood Claws with his/her Guardsmen. Basically I'll try to let him/her develop an understanding of how his/her army works, which unit is good at what and so forth. Then after he/she has played a few games, depending on his/her personality, I can utterly trash him/her and tell him/her why and how that happened.

The_Outsider
01-05-2008, 12:17
It comes down to fair play, marv335 has the right idea IMO.

I would still play to win - but if my opponent makes a blatant mistake - "lets move my las pred 12" so it can see your dread" - I would advise them against it.

I also wouldn't use some of the extreme things (like really abusing the assault phase rules) - but to be honest things like that are only used against other good players (and I do not intend for this to mean I don't try).

I would not throw the game, nor aim to obliterate my opponent in a single turn.

intellectawe
01-05-2008, 13:14
I let new players win always.

LordFulgrim
01-05-2008, 13:19
I'd never let a new player win on purpose because that way they'll never learn anything. I will go a bit easy on them though and clearly explain what I'm doing and why, give advice, etc.

incarna
01-05-2008, 13:46
I always let someone win who is playing the game for the first time. When my father taught me chess when I was a kid he let me win the first game. He said that it was important I learn HOW to win as much as how to play.

I taught someone poker recently and I also let them win. The same holds true for 40k and any other game under the son that I teach. I always let first-time players win at games of strategy and tactics (no, I’m not throwing the party games of Pictionay, that’s different). It’s not a gesture to “trick” someone into liking the game because they think they won, it’s a teaching technique.

mr_gosh_the_return
01-05-2008, 14:09
played agains a few noobs, i usuallu play 2 lists my reasonalbly orky cc list with a killa kan and a tooled up dark eldar splinter cannon/blasterfest. The noob gets the choice, shooty or fighty. Both armies are simple to use. I offer them advice if they want it and ask "are you sure?" if they are about to make a mistake. But i play for an interesting game usually to win but not all out.

mechu95
01-05-2008, 17:48
I myself would just play, and help them along the way - confirming rules, correcting mistakes, explaining, giving tactical advice. And not care if I win or lose. I think the newbie would find it much more fun that way.

intellectawe
01-05-2008, 17:52
I'd never let a new player win on purpose because that way they'll never learn anything.

I am not a licensed teacher. I am here to play a game with toys and have fun, and if my opponent and I are having fun while letting him win, then whats wrong?

Miggidy Mack
01-05-2008, 18:02
I usually run a scenario as someones first game. If they are playing nidz, I put them up against 12 fire warriors and a broadside using their starter box. I put the warriors in cover and let them proceed through a few pieces of cover to get to them.

It teaches them what they need to know about nids (use of cover, not freaking out when nids die) and they usually succeed with some acceptable losses. It's not ME vs. THEM, its THEM vs. SCENARIO.

Then for their first few games I bring an unoptimized list. Like gray knights without heavy support or sisters without special weapons. I slowly ramp up the lists strength and they slowly but surely get better at playing their army against a variety of opponents.

Then I bring my A game and crush their hopes and dreams.

Thoth62
01-05-2008, 18:05
Oh boy. I don't know why, (or maybe I do...) but these threads always seem to devolve into massive arguements.

I'll say this though. When I am playing someone, whether they are new to the game or not, I do not take it easy on them. I will bring my regular list, and play like I usually do. The only, and perhaps major, difference between playing a newbie and playing an experienced gamer is this. I will help walk a new player through the rules in a way that will help them understand them better. I'll talk through every one of my moves and actions, and explain why I'm doing it. I'll ask questions during my opponents turn to help think a little deeper about why they are moving that unit there, and why they are shooting this unit here.

The first step is making sure that they learn the rules properly. The second step in teaching a beginner to become a skilled player is to teach them how to think through every action they make.

There's one person in my regular group who is a very solid player. The one part of the game she struggles with though is deployment. She's admitted it too, but it seems like no matter how hard she thinks about where to put her units, they always end up in a straight line across the front of the deployment zone. Once she learns how those units in her army interact with and support each other, that deployment phase is going to start winning games for her. A couple of us started off by playing games against her in the manner described above, and she has slowly become a good player. With a little bit more experience, she can become a great player.

But, and this is the long-winded point I'm trying to make, we never took it easy on her.

jfrazell
01-05-2008, 18:10
The trick is to not play badly (in the "My Skinks charge your Bloodthirster" style), but make decisions that are tactically unsound but valid under the Rule of Cool (namely, the "I could cannon your Giant, but let's charge it with my two remaining Trollslayers instead" style.)

Also, don't play tightly and letter-of-law, but let some things go. Just play to enjoy the game - who cares if his charge is 1/8" out, it's his first game so of course his 6" eye isn't in yet! I've also heard of a lot of people allowing pre-measuring in games with new players, simply because it can take a fair bit of experience to get your eye in.

Finally, give the other guy advice, but don't tell him what to do. If he wants to move his Marines to within 12" of your Berserkers to rapid fire, let him know that your guys are rather good in combat, but if he wants to do it, let him. He'll learn his lesson, but he'll know you were trying to help without being patronizing. And that's probably the most important single factor.


Good points. I also find playing a smaller force against an opponents larger force is helpful. It keeps it more tactically even and often leads to draws or close games.

I think you also have the issue of a learning game vs. their first real game. A learning game I usually do very small games, working through the rules and some general tactics. First game will be the real deal but we'll walk through the rules as we go and I'll still play a smaller list than his or outclased in some other way. I'll them that too, so it will be fair but I can play closer to my ability.

azimaith
01-05-2008, 23:05
I can't see losing on purpose as a good way to introduce people to the game.
1: If you are a power gamer your probably not the best person to teach them anyhow. So if you have to leave a "power list" at home theres something there already.

2: Don't play stupid, players *learn* from you, if you make stupid decisions they will too, or they won't be as willing to listen if they see you making stupid decisions when you try to explain to them tactics. Theres nothing worse than when a new player comes in to observe a game and your opponent (whose not new) gets smushed utterly and wrong on 80% of the rules then tries to tell the new guy tactics. If you want to play fluffy, sure fine, but playing fluff isn't the same as playing stupid.

3: Play your best "friendly game" style but leave room for helping them *mid game*.
If your normal friendly game style is 20 minute rules arguments, base hopping, and trash talking you probably shouldn't teach new players.

4: Give them advice mid game and give them mulligans. If someones thinking about shooting his bolters at your land raider its perfectly fine to tell him that it won't work out and why. If he still does it, let him and don't break rules (IE Oh no, a lucky 6, i'll just remove that model anyhow) to let it be successful.

5: Be *fair* to yourself and to them. Playing like an imbecile does nothing but show another player how to play like one as well. At the same time understand that they're new and they'll make stupid mistakes all the time and its part of learning.

I don't understand where people get this idea you've got to coddle a new player like they're some newborn kitten. Face facts, they probably *won't* win their first game, or their second, third, or fourth. They may not win for a month, but they'll learn how or they'll give up. If you just hand them games they'll eventually play someone whose not going to give them freebies and their character will come out. If someone is going to quite because they don't win their first game they're not mature enough to play the game at all (a game in which your going to lose *many* games)

Its more important on their first game to get them clear on rules and basic tactics rather than to make sure they win.

intellectawe
02-05-2008, 02:13
I'm not coddling anyone, sorry to burst your bubble. I just let them win. Nothing more, nothing less.

Like I said earlier, we both have fun. So whats the issue?

Joewrightgm
02-05-2008, 02:38
Where I come from, this practice is called "baby seal clubbing".

That said, I played a game with a kid who had a small sister's force, and i took time to explain to him how the army works and how the phases for turns go and such.

I played out of respect for the local GW team, and I actually felt like I accomplished something by helping the kid through.

The store closed, so we couldn't finish, but I hope I helped the kid a little.

Stormhammers
02-05-2008, 04:52
I wouldnt let my opponent win, but I would go easy on him, helping him along with the rules and advice. I want the experience to be enjoyable and so as I dont come off as a grade A *******.

fyrblckdragon
02-05-2008, 05:02
I usually let them win the first game ( I play it close though). What happens next depends on their attitude after the game.

1- They get cocky- I crush them. Utterly.
2- They had a good time- I amp up the game a little bit each time as they get more familiar with their army.
3- They didn't have fun- I stop trying to convince them to play and move on to another new player.

DarkstarSabre
02-05-2008, 08:14
I will never 'throw' a game. Of course against a new player I'll give them tips, offer suggestions and perhaps be a bit more lenient, allowing them to make the odd mistake before pointing it out....

But I won't throw the game just for the sake of their ego. Experience is the best teacher. If they get beat and learn -how- they got beat and what they did wrong then in their next game they will improve. If you throw the game and let someone win just because they're new then it will build up an attitude to them that they are the best player ever and in their next game against someone else they will get slaughtered wholesale, which is more damaging to their fun and willingness to play then getting beaten and learning from it.

Sureshot05
02-05-2008, 08:36
I always unbalance the forces in favour of the new player, generally at least 2 to 1 ratio at least.

I do this so that:
- they can see all the units in the army they have selected
- it is a real challenge for myself
- I can take first turn and explain the game to them with demonstrations
- Cunning tactical maneuvers can be made without too much fear of it being an overwhelming victory for myself. These sort of things help teach a new player of some of the subtley to the game.
- New player leaves with a win and a general feel good factor.

That said, one time I tried this trick and nearly ended up winning so I deliberately threw the game to ensure the new player got that feel good factor.

I also if I have a lap top nearby try to show them the Dawn of War/Mark of Chaos trailer to help spike their imagination a little.

Asfaloth
02-05-2008, 09:21
I would create two balanced, fun armylist and play agame. Iwon't let the new player win, as I wouldn't want a served victory myself.

I think more important than winning or losing is a fun game and to help the newb with the rules, tactics, guessing etc.

LordFulgrim
02-05-2008, 10:55
I am not a licensed teacher. I am here to play a game with toys and have fun, and if my opponent and I are having fun while letting him win, then whats wrong?

Whatever floats your boat, it's just a matter of opinion and probably the way you were raised as well. My parents never let me win on purpose. It was just a learning process for me; in order to get better you'll suffer a few losses now and then and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'd feel horrible if I knew somebody actually let me win.
Anyway, whatever you do, as long as you're both having fun it's fine.

intellectawe
02-05-2008, 14:15
Well, allow me to expand while keeping it simple.

I tend to, um, baby people 'into' the game due to how expensive the game is. Other war games in my store are prominent, and I do everything in my power to keep players in GW games. Not because I support GW, far from it... But because I want opponents to play. It has happened a few times over the past 3 years I have lived in this area where a new player (of various ages, not just young) have lost a few games, and never returned or just sell their figures off to go play Hordes (because people tell them it is cheaper, but it isn't) because they don't wish to spend 500 bucks on a game they can't win.

I just want bodies to crush, true. But I can sacrifice a few games by tossing the victory if that means keeping a player around for years.

And I never said letting my opponent win is a free meal. I don't control the dice. I just don't take the power gaming lists I normally use. I've been beaten by new players many times.

...and my opponents never feel horrid Mister Fulgrim because OBVIOUSLY I don't announce it to their face that I let them win. Instead of taking a 165 point Archon, I take a 65 point Dracon. That is how I let them win, by not using my regular lists. But if my Dracon rolls well and flattens his marine commander, oh well.

incarna
02-05-2008, 15:35
I can't see losing on purpose as a good way to introduce people to the game.

It’s part of the teaching process. A player must learn how to win. If you’re teaching rules and tactics you’re only teaching two thirds of what you should be.


1: If you are a power gamer your probably not the best person to teach them anyhow. So if you have to leave a "power list" at home theres something there already.

I agree. Power gamers tend to make poor teachers.


2: Don't play stupid, players *learn* from you, if you make stupid decisions they will too, or they won't be as willing to listen if they see you making stupid decisions when you try to explain to them tactics. Theres nothing worse than when a new player comes in to observe a game and your opponent (whose not new) gets smushed utterly and wrong on 80% of the rules then tries to tell the new guy tactics. If you want to play fluffy, sure fine, but playing fluff isn't the same as playing stupid.

Players do learn from you but the FIRST game is different than every subsequent game. The FIRST game is not a real game. It’s the game in which you explain to your opponent the details of your decisions and the options available to him. You are in control of the entire game. You’re not really playing an opponent so much as playing both sides of the battle while the new player watches but has the ability to make some choices like a “Choose your own adventure” book.


3: Play your best "friendly game" style but leave room for helping them *mid game*.
If your normal friendly game style is 20 minute rules arguments, base hopping, and trash talking you probably shouldn't teach new players.

All games should be friendly.


4: Give them advice mid game and give them mulligans. If someones thinking about shooting his bolters at your land raider its perfectly fine to tell him that it won't work out and why. If he still does it, let him and don't break rules (IE Oh no, a lucky 6, i'll just remove that model anyhow) to let it be successful.

I agree with this as well, never break any rules


5: Be *fair* to yourself and to them. Playing like an imbecile does nothing but show another player how to play like one as well. At the same time understand that they're new and they'll make stupid mistakes all the time and its part of learning.

There is nothing wrong with deliberately putting components of your army in compromising situations so to see if your opponent can recognize and capitalize on the opportunities you give him. While I do not recommend assaulting your opponents Khorn Berserkers with your Fire Warriors, it is certainly fine to leave one of your units within assault range of his Berserkers so your opponent can recognize the opportunity he has, learn about assault, and see how his berserkers do in assault.


I don't understand where people get this idea you've got to coddle a new player like they're some newborn kitten. Face facts, they probably *won't* win their first game, or their second, third, or fourth. They may not win for a month, but they'll learn how or they'll give up. If you just hand them games they'll eventually play someone whose not going to give them freebies and their character will come out. If someone is going to quite because they don't win their first game they're not mature enough to play the game at all (a game in which your going to lose *many* games)

I never recommend “coddling” a new player. If you’ve taken the responsibility to teach someone the game you’ve committed yourself to teaching them COMPLETELY; the rules, strategy, and HOW winning is achieved. Every subsequent game after their first, play to your full ability, but the first game is different. It isn’t about giving anyone some crap “positive self esteem” or reinforcement, it’s about being thorough.


Its more important on their first game to get them clear on rules and basic tactics rather than to make sure they win.

Knowing how to win is just as important as rules and basic tactics.

Just an aside; I taught college for 4 years. I didn’t teach tactics but I did teach certain elements of strategy as well as industry rules. The tests I gave could be analogized as the SECOND game and every game after that. The step-by-step instruction and tutorials I gave on projects could be analogized as the first game. The book and my lectures were the rules and strategy.

I’m not sure my teaching would have been as effective if I walked my kids through 90% of the process of how to do something and then left the last 10% out then expected them to “learn” from every subsequent test I gave despite having been incomplete in my instruction.

snooggums
02-05-2008, 17:21
Don't determine a winner or loser, just play a few games to get them used to the rules before making it a competition. Losing a unit to genestealers is a learning experience, having it pointed out that you lost the game because of it when you did not understand how good they are on a charge is frustrating even when new. Just play the game and see if they want to do another, seeing how it plays out different with what they learned from the first. Get into the winning and losing stuff later.

I do this with all games I play.

mr_gosh_the_return
12-05-2008, 12:28
Well my aims are
1) have fun - this may involve encouraging the new player to think tactically
2)win
3) make sure i win fairly by having an open copy of the rulebook that we can both use

my worst game ever was a 500pt game vs an eldar noob. Normal 4th ed rules. He turned up with a wraithlord, scorpions and 20 basic guardians. As the guardians were the cheapest he rushed them forward, kieeping the scorpions and the wraithlord hidden behind a wood. needless to say despite my suggestion that ascorpions were designed to close to the ebnemy he wouldn't move. I won for no losses. The game was horrible. I'd rather play a close tense game that i lose than wipe the board with my opponent because of thier tactical f%*k ups or poor luck

x-esiv-4c
12-05-2008, 12:58
Make it a close game but ultimately let them win.

Necrobat
12-05-2008, 13:15
As somebody who will soon enough be on the receiving end (I'm a new player, I'm just waiting out for 5th ed rules before actually sitting down to seriously read them) I feel that, personally, the best kind of opponent/mentor would be the kind that doesn't mind if your army doesn't have a lot of coherency (to allow the testing of different units in different situations, to see which units would be a better Troops choice for them as a player etc etc) and would be willing to explain what they're doing. I wouldn't want to be handed the game, and I wouldn't want to be trounced with no explanation what-so-ever. A nice relaxed, friendly game where everything makes sense and isn't handed to them (hell, I personally wouldn't care if I DID get trounced if everything got explained well) is what I think would be best, and is what I hope people at my local game store will be able to give me when I have enough troops to play a proper game. :)

bobbles
12-05-2008, 13:44
Is it just me or has no one mentioned that people have to learn how to lose, i know a lot of people who are horrible to play against because they dont take losing very well.i know one who even abandons games systems as soon as he lose a game. The game that made him quit 40k was him using orks me using guard ,i had camoline and sharp shooters then sat in a forest ,he tried to copy me with his slugga boys and lost, declared i was cheating a stormed out. And yes he was told how bad an idea what was doing was , including the reason's behind it being a bad idea .

Misanthrope
12-05-2008, 14:29
I used to be the kind of guy that would win at all costs, even against a new player. but I've realized that's friggen stupid. I don't even care about winning against experienced players (as much...) and I'll happily take every oppurtunity to screw myself to give a new player a good, fun experience.

Danny Internet
12-05-2008, 15:21
In these situations I don't play balls-to-the-wall tournament style tactics, but I don't let them win either. I'll beat them soundly, but I'll also give them advice along the way and afterwards. They won't learn anything if you let them win, and I know I'd be pissed if I just spent 2+ hours playing a game only to find out the other guy wasn't really trying.

Luisjoey
13-05-2008, 05:50
Usually when you are teaching you don´t care about winning (if you do you suck)
You care about teaching the game
But it is more probable that you win the game, because you try to let the other move as he wants and the game has some "particular way of thinking" you know that some IG recruits won´t do a thing in melee against a dreadnought; but noob players would do and will charge and make lots of mistakes

the game is not that simply to learn the very first time, but you learn playing and reading rules.

Olorin
13-05-2008, 06:27
My first tournament, I had only played a few times before and didn't really know what I was doing. I lost every game, except one which I tied. (I did win best painted, but only because the best painters were also much better players, and therefore got higher prizes.) That said, I learned an enormous amount.

And frankly, I'd consider it insulting if someone let me win. If you can't enjoy games that you lose, you shouldn't play. With a new player, you shouldn't be an absolute stickler, but you should play to win while showing him why the game is fun. Be polite, and gentlemanly, and helpful, and never gloat, but don't be a pushover, even when playing against a young child. People play miniature wargames because of the challenge and the creativity required. People who get excited by challenges will be turned off by easy wins, and people who only want to win won't be right for the gaming scene anyway.

MADJAP77
13-05-2008, 08:16
i remember my 1st 40k exp. my buddy and i had a squad of marines and we deployed on either end of a 4X4 table. we each picked a piece of terrain (him a bunker and me some forest). he deploys in the bunker and i slog my guys across the table and get shot to pieces because of his awesome cover save. now every time i play him i remember hot i felt and crush him in 3 to 4 turns. but, when i play a noob, i go over his list and some "what i would do" advice on the list and deployment. when we are playing i use the chess rule so there is no pick up, place down, pick back up. ive started 2 noobs and they are still playing. so i guess i did something right.

Reaver83
13-05-2008, 10:20
when i play someone new and relatively inexperienced, i won't go all out to win, neither will i completely throw the game.

I'll aim for a draw often, possibly make poorer tactical choices than i would normally. You don't want to kick their ass completely as they may not come back. you've got to build a supportive community

wingedserpant
13-05-2008, 18:04
I'd let them win which can be an entertaining challenge in itself. I've seen redshirts try to lose and are just not able to because they are that bad. No talent at all.

Just try to get as many rules into the game as you can. Like rapid fire, fleet of foot, rending and multiple wounds and stuff. I'm not too keen on Orks being in the new starter set. Tyranids had alot of special rules to show off. Orks have furious charge....

dvdhwk
13-05-2008, 18:09
I've taught 2 new people how to play recently. There is no way I would let them win for the sake of winning. They're both mature people who realize the fun of the game isn't all about winning.

That being said, I do offer strategic advice throughout the games, and I make moves I wouldn't normally make in a competitive game in order to give him opportunities to capitalize on, or to illustrate a rule.

Here's a battle report from a recent teaching game:
http://runningfromthelaw-dvdhwk.blogspot.com/2008/05/battle-report-1000-points-tau-vs-chaos.html
For example, I never would have moved that Fire Warrior squad into building 3, in charge range of the CSM squad. But I wanted his Lord to get into combat.

Grand Master Raziel
13-05-2008, 22:40
I don't think it's a good idea to let newbies win as a matter of course. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go all-out to stomp them into the ground, either. One can try and let them get in a little of their own, whether it be letting a squad of Crisis Suits shoot up one of your units or letting a mob of Ork Boyz get in one good charge. That way, even if they lose the game, their overall memory is not one of complete ruin and humiliation. A small measure of success can mitigate the sting of an overall loss, and give the new player an enjoyable moment to look back on.

Scarface13
13-05-2008, 23:45
Between the ages of 7 and 10 I didn't win a single game against my older brother and his friend, instead I took joy in killing parts of their army while losing the whole game. Just like anything your doing, you try to improve, not immediately succeed. So when I went from killing a couple guys to about half the army, I was pleased.

I would hope to see this from other new players, so no, I didn't cut my current friends any slack. Currently, I split games with my one friend, and the other almost beat me a couple weeks ago for the first time(granted my prism missed the 5 times it shot at that game. The targets were juicy ds'ed chaos terminators btw.) One of these days he will finally beat me.

Paradox
14-05-2008, 04:44
Other than rules classifications, I treat an introductory game the same as any other game.

What that means to me, and what that means to you may be completely different but I can honestly put my hand on my heart and claim that I am not some WAAC power gamer. I play for ***** and giggles with the number one element being fun.

I've read a lot of posts here where they get involved in tactics etc and I'm going to call it a crock. I seriously doubt there is more than a small percentage here who could lay claim to being master tacticians- you may not realise it, but correcting the tactical flair of a new player may turn them off more than anything. There is never a right or wrong act for each situation as the game is open ended to an extent- there will always be more than one way to solve every problem.

Let them make their moves, whether you believe it to be right or wrong, and don't comment until after the games conclusion. Who knows, that move you made them take back because you felt it was 'tactically unsound' may have been the one that had the biggest impact on your opponents flow of the battle.

Merciless crushing of an opponent does no favours- whether new to the game or not. Babying them teaches them nothing- allow them to make decisions and feel the consequences good or bad.

People who can't cope with defeat or things not going their way have no place in the hobby.