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Kronos
30-04-2008, 23:02
with all the hype on titans at the moment, i was thinking to myself, how on Earth does a Titan land on a planet?

Does it have some sort of massive grav chute , or is it transported directly onto the planet ?

I'm sorry if this topic has been asked before but im rather curious.

Chaos and Evil
30-04-2008, 23:03
Dedicated transport ship.

If the enemy has no significant AA, they've been known to hot-drop directly into the battlezone.

PondaNagura
30-04-2008, 23:05
most titans use massive landers..like a controlled drop pod to carry them from space to the planet.
i can't really see them as being rapid-response so probably take some time to get down to planetside.

dr.oetk3r
30-04-2008, 23:05
Pretty cool stuff if you ask me : )

Melchor
30-04-2008, 23:08
Apparently, the biggest problem is not in getting it down on the surface. It's getting it up there again that's the hardest.

Creeping_Death
30-04-2008, 23:09
One of the HH books (the second I think) has a small mention about the kind of effort it takes in preparing a titan for landing on a planet, and the lengthy procedure that it is to get it transported back to the ship afterwards.

Let's just say, it doesnt sound easy :p

electriceye83
30-04-2008, 23:24
I would have thought in bits would have been thebest way.

Whether those things come apart though....

alexh
30-04-2008, 23:26
Don't they have some kind of Thunderbird 2 type ship to pick them up?

Feor
30-04-2008, 23:33
It is, as PondaNagura said, essentially a giant piloted Drop pod. They're extremely hard to pilot, since they have to remain verticle to the planet's gravity field at all times, and are essentially huge flying cathedrals to the Omnimessiah, that just happens to have enough rooms between pews for a titan to stand.

The end of Legion suggests that a fleet may have more titans than landers, which would make sense, since you can just make multiple trips. (without a titan in it they'd be much easier to land/launch)

Baragash
30-04-2008, 23:37
Thanks to electriceye83 I now have images of an Elite Ikea flat-pack team putting a Titan together from parts in the middle of a battle......

DapperAnarchist
30-04-2008, 23:42
I suppose taking one apart would be a sin, like poking around in the innards of the Emperor... In the Battle of Archaeosaurs, the Titan princeps commands the lander pilot to actualy fly around the place to give him a view. The lander pilot is displeased, and after a minute or two just goes "screw you" and lands. And in the 3rd war for Armageddon, it was discovered that Titan space transports are very capable of defending themselves - by using the titans, who stand in niches on the side of the ship.

Bretonnian Lord
30-04-2008, 23:48
There's also a short story in Let The Galaxy Burn where two Titans get taken planetside by the landers. Basically they are huge drop pods, and the story describes the landers as cumbersome and unwieldy. It says that Titans are at their most vulnerable when they are in the landers/trying to disembark from them.

SlaughterSong
30-04-2008, 23:52
In Legion, getting the Titans up into the fleet became a big problem. As in lost a few as the planet was, chaos bombed? this led to some none too happy princeps who took their toys n went back to mars after the battle. Kinda reminds me of pissed off power gamer who lost to a fluffy marine list :-)

CaptainSenioris
01-05-2008, 00:07
The Iron warriors use what seems to be an obliterator virus enslaved Hive ship to transport the Dies Irae planet side.

For those newblings that don't know, the Dies Irae is an Emperor class titan of the Legio Mortis who is infamous/famous for breaching the walls of the Emperor's palace. It also features in Galaxy in Flames.

dr.oetk3r
01-05-2008, 00:19
In Legion, getting the Titans up into the fleet became a big problem. As in lost a few as the planet was, chaos bombed? this led to some none too happy princeps who took their toys n went back to mars after the battle. Kinda reminds me of pissed off power gamer who lost to a fluffy marine list :-)

I've read Legion, however, i'd be angry if I was reading it and I saw this. Make sure to give a *SPOILER* warning next time. ;)

Feor
01-05-2008, 00:33
the Daes Irae was actually a Warlord Titan. It's crew is among the central characters of the early books of the Horus Heresy series.

Koryphaus
01-05-2008, 00:45
Then it got an upgrade in Storm of Iron, because its specifically mentioned as being an Emperor Class, and its also specifically mentioned that its much larger than the Warlords of Legio Ignatum.

Hellebore
01-05-2008, 00:52
the Daes Irae was actually a Warlord Titan. It's crew is among the central characters of the early books of the Horus Heresy series.

I'm pretty sure it's an Imperator Titan. I'm fairly confidant that's how it's described in the HH series.

Hellebore

Alessander
01-05-2008, 01:08
The Titan graphic novels (written by Dan Abnett) have the Titans trasported in massive holds on starcrafts. While there isn't any description of how they get planetside, the series does mention that the machine spirits of the individual titans "dream" when in the holds, sometimes twitching (and scaring the crap out of the ship crew) and resent the confinement.

"it is widely believed that each titan has a personality of its own. Although not thought to be sentient in its own right, a battle titan will develop certain characteristics over a prolonged period of time. Whether it is a result of psychic imprint from every princeps or the incarnation of the machine god, none can say."

Has anyone seen the Epic marine Landing Craft (http://www.mustangsalling.dk/imperium/marineflyers.html)? Those things are huge, easily 4 times the size of a thunderhawk, and are made to carry six land raider size vehicles. I'm sure the mechanicus have larger dedicated vehicles for titans...

SlaughterSong
01-05-2008, 01:18
In Storm of Iron the Dies Irae is an Emperor class Titan, same one that appeared several times in the HH series and knocked at the Emperor's front door

Hellebore
01-05-2008, 01:23
As far as I knew the mechanicus used large armoured landers that are pretty much hollow hanger bays with the titan on a rack.

Hellebore

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 05:56
False Gods describe the Titan landers to be so massive and heavy as to throw up huge waves of dirt, mud and water when they crash to the ground. No real controlled landing for these things, Drop Pod with a pilot and church on top it is.

And the ships that the Adeptus Mechanicus transport them in must be enormous.

Sai-Lauren
01-05-2008, 10:31
Way back when, in the mists of time when Warlord Titans looked they they really could rip your arm off and beat you to death with the damp end, rather than be blown over by a mild breeze (ie, first edition Adeptus Titanicus with the plastic beetlebacks), there was a piece of fluff that covered the deployment of titans from a landing craft - big enough that the captain of it could look down from his bridge on the titans as they deployed and have them appear to be smaller than a man - which would probably put him at least several hundred feet up.

I doubt there are titan sized drop pods - they're not really designed for storm assaults, and they would still need a transport to get them back up into orbit again, potentially under heavy fire.

pookie
01-05-2008, 11:03
False Gods describe the Titan landers to be so massive and heavy as to throw up huge waves of dirt, mud and water when they crash to the ground. No real controlled landing for these things, Drop Pod with a pilot and church on top it is.

And the ships that the Adeptus Mechanicus transport them in must be enormous.

agreed, and because it digs in so much, this is the longest part of recovering the Titan, first the lander has to be dug out of the Crater, then the Titan can Embarke, the power it must need tho to leave the planet must be massive.

Müller
01-05-2008, 12:58
*SOMEWHAT OF A SPOILER-Warning!*




Well, I don't know much about the titans at all, seeing as the only novel I've read that includes them so far is "Dead Sky Black Sun" where four titans battle it out (2 v 2) to help their respective ground troopers (where Iron Warriors under a scorceror is trying to overthrow Honsou's forces which defends the fortress of Kalan Ghoul) And the two fighting with Honsou's forces are HUGE, even bigger than the other two, they are some form of ancient guards who have slept inside the fortress untill they were needed to defend it... anyone knows what class they might be?

Dreachon
01-05-2008, 13:27
The 2 titans under Honsou's command are the remaining 2 warlord titans from their atatck on the citadel on hydra cordatus

pookie
01-05-2008, 13:35
the types are warhound/reaver/warlord/imperator - so it would depend on a few things as to which types may have been in DSBS

iamkion132
01-05-2008, 13:58
I'm just trying to imagine how much energy would be required to move just one small Titan.

Random Integer
01-05-2008, 14:04
I'll tell you how they do it. 99 Red Balloons.

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 15:32
Well pretty much if they are described as 'impossibly large, with weapons bristling with city destroying energy' and they 'dwarf all other Titans' you can pretty much say that they are Imperator class.

Of course, with Chaos, you have different 'breeds' of daemon-Titan. Such as the Banelord Titan of Khorne, which is a Titan that has a Bloodthirster trapped inside it...

The conversion opportunities of that would be fantastic. A clawed, tailed, winged, bestial headed Warlord Titan. Awesome.

pookie
01-05-2008, 15:34
Well pretty much if they are described as 'impossibly large, with weapons bristling with city destroying energy' and they 'dwarf all other Titans' you can pretty much say that they are Imperator class.

Of course, with Chaos, you have different 'breeds' of daemon-Titan. Such as the Banelord Titan of Khorne, which is a Titan that has a Bloodthirster trapped inside it...

The conversion opportunities of that would be fantastic. A clawed, tailed, winged, bestial headed Warlord Titan. Awesome.


or the Warp lord, a Tzeentch titan, how about a giant chicken anyone!!!!

DapperAnarchist
01-05-2008, 15:37
Sorry, but I'm more interested in the Plaguelord Titan, or the Bondage Titan... Perhaps call it the Slavelord?

Nazguire
01-05-2008, 15:50
I can see the Nurgle Warlord (call it Plaguelord I suppose) being this massive chemical weapons factory on legs, with huge cauldrons of bubbling...stuff being boiled away on its shoulders while it dripped pus and mucus, Nurglings cavorting throughout every inch of the thing, rusted chains dropping from its corroded arms and its ammo feeds more akin to blood vessels that pump....well not blood.

A bloated distended gut that writhed with maggots and the Titan crew inside, and the cockpit practically falling apart, with only sinew and slime holding it together. And somehow it not only manages to walk across the battlefield, it actually wins battles too...

Imagine the landing craft for that thing...I can see it being a giant veiny, slimy egg. With engines...and...things...

Creeping_Death
01-05-2008, 16:07
In Storm of Iron the Dies Irae is an Emperor class Titan, same one that appeared several times in the HH series and knocked at the Emperor's front door

In the HH series it's described as being an Imperator titan, which is a sub class of the Emperor class titan, along with the warmonger. Just to clear up any confusion ;)

Mad Jack Deacon
01-05-2008, 20:48
In the HH series it's described as being an Imperator titan, which is a sub class of the Emperor class titan, along with the warmonger. Just to clear up any confusion ;)

Umm. Imperator is Latin for Emperor. An Emperor-class Titan is an Imperator-class Titan. And vice versa.

Mechanicus
01-05-2008, 21:01
Not so in this case - in 40k, there is a type of titan called the Emperor Titan (ranking above battle titans), containing two classes: Emperor and Warmonger. :) GW never had to make sense.

Creeping_Death
01-05-2008, 21:04
Umm. Imperator is Latin for Emperor. An Emperor-class Titan is an Imperator-class Titan. And vice versa.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_Class_Titan

The lexicanum's page on the Emperor class titan and its two sub divisions of Imperator and Warmonger titans.

Chaos and Evil
01-05-2008, 21:22
Umm. Imperator is Latin for Emperor. An Emperor-class Titan is an Imperator-class Titan. And vice versa.

Just to confirm that this is wrong.

The size of Titan larger than a Warlord is an Emperor Titan.

The two sub-classes of the Emperor are the Imperator (Medium-range heavy gunfire Titan) and the Warmonger (Ultra long-range support Titan).

There are multiple sub-classes of the other Titans too.

Warhound (Jackal, Wolf, etc), the Reaver (Hun, Goth, etc) and the Warlord (Nightgaunt, Eclipse, etc).

Puffin Magician
01-05-2008, 21:23
I doubt there are titan sized drop pods - they're not really designed for storm assaults, and they would still need a transport to get them back up into orbit again, potentially under heavy fire.Agreed. The Adeptus Mechanicus would probably not drop a Titan into orbit and landed in what can only be described as a barely-controllable crash. Titans are amongst the most prized possessions of the entire Imperium, and will be protected and relocated accordingly.

The transports are horribly sluggish and unmaneuverable because they're massive bulk carriers holding thousands of tons, and ugly enough to make the Thunderhawk look more streamlined than rainbow trout in comparison. I guess it would be more practical to drop a Titan Battlegroup in one go [3 Warlords/Reavers or 2 pairs of Warhounds] in a well-armoured transport far from the front, and while they advance the titanship makes another delivery run.

The mention of Titans defending AM fleets by shooting from "ports" or whatnot in the sides of their transports instantly made me think of them as being very skeletal in design, like the T-hawk Transporter or S-64 Skycrane, festooned with defensive Turbolasers and Void Shields. I figure they look like that, or similar to the Battletech IS Dropships [not the Clanner ball o' death], or a mix of both.

Sai-Lauren
02-05-2008, 08:57
The mention of Titans defending AM fleets by shooting from "ports" or whatnot in the sides of their transports instantly made me think of them as being very skeletal in design, like the T-hawk Transporter or S-64 Skycrane, festooned with defensive Turbolasers and Void Shields. I figure they look like that, or similar to the Battletech IS Dropships [not the Clanner ball o' death], or a mix of both.
I was thinking more like the sphere droids on the space station in Terrahawks :p

And considering by comparison with starship weapons, titan weapons are tiny, I doubt they actually contribute that much to the defence - they might knock out a couple of attack craft (and their gunnery systems might make them ideally suited to that role), but that would be about it.

Anyway, they can't be skeletal, they have to survive re-entry, and chances are the design specs would include the possibility of atmospheric insertion without full shields.

Burnthem
02-05-2008, 18:35
Hehe, in the BFG rules having Titans defending your ship would barely merit putting 1 extra turret on the stats, despite their impressive size on the ground Titan weaponry pales in comparison to a Starships weapons.

Nazguire
02-05-2008, 18:38
It's hard to compare weaponry when one can annihilate a city and one can raze a small country to the ground...;)

havok42
04-05-2008, 12:29
Ive always ashoomed that the titans stayed on stationed planets but it makes sence for giant titan sized drop pods raining down on us while were busy fighting than to look up and run!!!

DapperAnarchist
04-05-2008, 16:09
Titans are too powerful to be used as a purely defensive weapon. Though that is their main use - defense of AdMech worlds.

chris.seraphim
04-05-2008, 19:10
Imagine a drop pod. The size of a building. A big building.

OK, Imagine a premier league football ground dropping out of the sky on a pillar of fire. Then one wall of this HUGE box slides open, and a Titan walks out.

Cool.

Then, the Titan walks back into the box, once it's done squishing greenskins/traitors whatever, the box closes and the Adeptus spends a day digiing it out of it's hole, then the whole thinig takes off again, to rendezvous with its support ship.

Thats just cool. I want one....

Demon Druss
07-05-2008, 19:29
As far as I know Titans can be drop podded its mentioned in the Iron warriors entry in Adaptus Astartes 2 under their organization also they can be dropped by ship like in storm of iron albeit a obliterator infected nid ship that put it down........ Oh well.

Killgore
07-05-2008, 20:36
GG armour of contempt spoiler

there is a huge coastal assault from orbit on a chaos world, titans are mentioned comming from the beach to help out the imperial troops, i asume that these where dropped onto the front line from titan drop pod

LordCypher
07-05-2008, 22:50
Giant drop pods. That is why it's so hard to get them off a planet hehe

VanHel
07-05-2008, 23:32
or the Warp lord, a Tzeentch titan, how about a giant chicken anyone!!!!

Chicken arise, Arise Chicken!

redstarone
11-05-2008, 07:10
Chicken arise, Arise Chicken!


May I qoute you in my sig saying that?

On topic, I go more with the idea that they are at first transported in the , well, pretty much cargo containers with engines and minimal weapons. Then they are dropped in giant drop pods similiar to dreadclaws in the fact they can take back off. The hardest part i would think is loading the titan itself into the craft, not really the craft taking off. Plus, titans and thier transports are from before the heresy, hence the similiarity to dreadclaws. (although i dont see titans climbing out the bottem of the craft, well, maybe legio mortis. Or slaanesh ones...

leo_neil316
12-05-2008, 09:50
Remember that this is the imperium we're talking about, if your in a hurry you just go for true shock and awe, guard style.

Which is taking your three kilometer long titan transporter, saying 'damn the dropships' and slamming the whole thing down ten miles behind the enemy lines, blow everything around the bays to crap with your anit-ordanance turrets (ordanance bfg style is 747 size bombers and torpedos the size of a tower block remember) while the doors open and the titans walk out the front.

Thought for the day: Subtlety is for the weak.

Sojourner
12-05-2008, 09:57
Anyway, they can't be skeletal, they have to survive re-entry

Reentry doesn't have to be a problem under powered flight. Retrofiring engines could in principle control your speed enough that air resistance isn't an issue. However, landing would then take hours.

Sai-Lauren
12-05-2008, 11:56
Reentry doesn't have to be a problem under powered flight. Retrofiring engines could in principle control your speed enough that air resistance isn't an issue. However, landing would then take hours.
And you then need escorts to run CAS missions around you while you drop, not to mention you're a very big target for any defence platforms that can target you.

They'll do that on Forge Worlds when they get home to repair and refit certainly. Combat drops though? Nah.


Remember that this is the imperium we're talking about, if your in a hurry you just go for true shock and awe, guard style.

Which is taking your three kilometer long titan transporter, saying 'damn the dropships' and slamming the whole thing down ten miles behind the enemy lines, blow everything around the bays to crap with your anit-ordanance turrets (ordanance bfg style is 747 size bombers and torpedos the size of a tower block remember) while the doors open and the titans walk out the front.
And watch them get seven kinds of brickdust kicked out of them because they're fighting without supporting troops (even assuming that the transporter makes it down past the enemies defences).

Titans may be big and scary, but there's a limit to what they can accomplish on their own.


It's hard to compare weaponry when one can annihilate a city and one can raze a small country to the ground...
You can, how many shots it takes.;)

pookie
12-05-2008, 13:00
[QUOTE=Sai-Lauren;2603360]
And watch them get seven kinds of brickdust kicked out of them because they're fighting without supporting troops (even assuming that the transporter makes it down past the enemies defences).

Titans may be big and scary, but there's a limit to what they can accomplish on their own.[QUOTE]

didnt a Titan Legion get destroyed during the HH whilst affecting a Combat Drop? woudl seem this would be one of the best times to try and take on the Titan(s).

Nazguire
12-05-2008, 14:14
[quote=Sai-Lauren;2603360]
And watch them get seven kinds of brickdust kicked out of them because they're fighting without supporting troops (even assuming that the transporter makes it down past the enemies defences).

Titans may be big and scary, but there's a limit to what they can accomplish on their own.[quote]

didnt a Titan Legion get destroyed during the HH whilst affecting a Combat Drop? woudl seem this would be one of the best times to try and take on the Titan(s).

The defences of Terra are a completely different ball game to the defences of the other other planets in the Imperium. The amount of fire power needed to completely destroy a Titan Legion carrier fleet coming down to disembark a dozen or more Titans would be immense and I can't see much worlds having defences that can concentrate that amount of firepower whilst also having some to spare on the other invaders.

pookie
12-05-2008, 14:17
[quote=pookie;2603489][quote=Sai-Lauren;2603360]
And watch them get seven kinds of brickdust kicked out of them because they're fighting without supporting troops (even assuming that the transporter makes it down past the enemies defences).

Titans may be big and scary, but there's a limit to what they can accomplish on their own.

The defences of Terra are a completely different ball game to the defences of the other other planets in the Imperium. The amount of fire power needed to completely destroy a Titan Legion carrier fleet coming down to disembark a dozen or more Titans would be immense and I can't see much worlds having defences that can concentrate that amount of firepower whilst also having some to spare on the other invaders.

:D ok, so maybe a bad example, but still its easiest to take out a titan whislt its being landed tho, a single defense laser hit would do the job.

Nazguire
12-05-2008, 14:24
[quote=Nazguire;2603667][quote=pookie;2603489]

:D ok, so maybe a bad example, but still its easiest to take out a titan whislt its being landed tho, a single defense laser hit would do the job.


I doubt it was an average joe blow defence laser that destroyed the Chaos Titan Legion at Terra. It vaporised the lander if I remember it correctly (which suggests IMMENSE firepower)

If you just knocked the ship out, the Titans in all likelihood would just shoot their way out. Remember how durable and tough these things are. They aren't like Eldar walkers. These are essentially armoured fortresses on legs with starship grade weaponry.

leo_neil316
12-05-2008, 14:26
Ya missed my point.

Titan dropships and pods are vunerable to anti-air fire as they go down, their also vunerable to interceptors and things.

The warp capable transports they use to move the titains through space pretty much aren't. Your talking about a ship almost three kilometers long with anti ordanance turrets used to blow torpedos and bombers away, void shields better than the titans it's carrying -and- as many weapons batteries as two cobra class destroyers.

It's generally a bad idea. Spaceships aren't built for landing afterall. But if you were really in a hurry you could do it, and nothing short of a broadside from another spacecraft would stop you.

There isn't a titan on it's own, theres an entire titan leigon, point blank fire from a transport ship and all the other imperial forces rushing into the huge gap you created just by landing. Plus the shockwave of a three kilometer long ship hitting the ground.

Sai-Lauren
12-05-2008, 15:13
Ya missed my point.

Titan dropships and pods are vunerable to anti-air fire as they go down, their also vunerable to interceptors and things.

Yep.



The warp capable transports they use to move the titains through space pretty much aren't. Your talking about a ship almost three kilometers long with anti ordanance turrets used to blow torpedos and bombers away, void shields better than the titans it's carrying -and- as many weapons batteries as two cobra class destroyers.

Against defence platforms which are likely powerful enough to give cruisers a serious headache and make battleships plot their fire support mission orbits very carefully to minimise damage? With shields already strained because of the heat of re-entry? With the enemy throwing everything they can at them to stop a high threat force from landing?

Interceptors and air defences don't need to destroy the transport outright, all they need to do is enough damage to force it out of the sky, either back into orbit, or uncontrolled into the terrain.

Anyway, anti-ordanance turrets are only heavy weapons (lascannon, autocannon, missile launchers, heavy plasma guns, even things like heavy bolters designed to put out a load of firepower to hit and disable torpedoes and attack craft), the weapon batteries are very-heavy weapons (macro cannon, plasma cannon, volcano cannon, maybe Multi-Launchers etc) and lances are defence lasers.
And launching a capital ship sized torpedo in an atmosphere will probably lead to a building sized lump of metal and explosives landing right next to you.

Also, they're transports, not battleships. They may have some weapons for self-defence, but they'll rely on escort vessels for the most part (the imperium isn't infinitely rich, and the more roles you give something, then either the more it'll cost or the worse it'll do at them all).



There isn't a titan on it's own, theres an entire titan leigon, point blank fire from a transport ship and all the other imperial forces rushing into the huge gap you created just by landing. Plus the shockwave of a three kilometer long ship hitting the ground.
A shockwave that big would at best cripple the transport vessel, and render any troops carried, and those waiting to rush in and exploit the breach ineffective (if not killed outright).

Even if they do get out, the enemy will probably have mostly evacuated the projected landing zone (the local troops may suddenly have something huge come overhead and thump into the ground, but their commanders will have had it on sensors from the moment it hit atmosphere, if not long before, and will have had plenty of time to work out where it'll land), and will now be pouring troops back in and ranging artillery shells to take out the titans as they disembark. If the transport is disabled, the titans are effectively grounded, and may well be out of resupply and repair facilities.

Also, they wouldn't risk an entire legion in one transport - a battlegroup maybe, not the whole legion.

It's a nice idea, but the AM wouldn't risk that amount of materiel in a shock assault like that. That's not the way they're wired.

Best bet, land behind your own lines, where you control the skies, and can make a controlled landing.

Sojourner
12-05-2008, 15:41
Also, they're transports, not battleships. They may have some weapons for self-defence, but they'll rely on escort vessels for the most part (the imperium isn't infinitely rich, and the more roles you give something, then either the more it'll cost or the worse it'll do at them all).


I have a fantastic image in my head of a big assault transport looming overhead, banking slowly like some big sea animal while all the belly guns let rip at anything that moves for several kilometres around it. They're only defensive weapons but on a ship that size, defensive weaponry means dozens or hundreds of battle cannon and earthshaker grade guns with fast loaders and able to fire continuously for many minutes to suppress anything threatening a hot landing zone. A landing ship coincidentally making a low pass nearby is an excellent fire support platform for any ground troops lucky enough to have one in their area.

Sai-Lauren
12-05-2008, 16:08
I have a fantastic image in my head of a big assault transport looming overhead, banking slowly like some big sea animal while all the belly guns let rip at anything that moves for several kilometres around it. They're only defensive weapons but on a ship that size, defensive weaponry means dozens or hundreds of battle cannon and earthshaker grade guns with fast loaders and able to fire continuously for many minutes to suppress anything threatening a hot landing zone. A landing ship coincidentally making a low pass nearby is an excellent fire support platform for any ground troops lucky enough to have one in their area.

Oh yes, fantastic mental image. :cool:

But what's the enemy got that's locking on and is about to blast it out of the sky? ;)

That's the point I'm trying to make - things don't happen in isolation. You try and put your titan transport down in the enemies rear areas, they're going to try and stop you. Or maybe they push an advance or artillery strike into where your exploitation forces are massing, cutting the titans off from supplies and support troops, or they mass their titan equivalents to go up against yours. That defence turret that's tracking the dropship and building up energy to fire and shoot it down may itself be under attack from special forces sent to blow it up, or there may be an enemy sabotage team in place on the transport ready to detonate its engines, or do the escorting fighters win out over the enemy ones who're trying to bring the transport down?

After all, 100 marines can conquer a planet - if all the bad guys line up quietly and don't shoot back. :D

Puffin Magician
12-05-2008, 18:20
There must've been a warp storm drifting through this thread as we're discussing legitimate landing procedures alongisde the complete idiocy of 40k imagery taken to the extreme with kilometer-long landing ships and destructive weaponry on a continental scale.

Landing ships are going to be smaller than deep-space combat vessels, unless they are rare specialized vessels designed to land a whole wackload of stuff in one go. In that case, they probably aren't heavily armed or armoured due to weight, and are landed very very far from anything remotely dangerous.

I'd forgotton about the Warped Dogs being completely destroyed during the siege of Terra, but with the ambiguity of Titan Legion sizes we have no way of telling how many were actually aboard. Granted, Earth's defences are overwhelmingly powerful so destroying a massive ship seems quite plausible, but it could be as unlucky as the destruction of [i]Columbia where a minor yet integral piece is destroyed, bringing the entire ship and legion plummeting to their demise.

An example of a combat titan dropship could be the Devourer (http://www.pbase.com/tepoc/image/33170745). It's large enough to carry several Reaver Titans, and has significant offensive/defensive weaponry to boot. Larger ships likely exist [the Emperor-class needs to stomp around too] but are probably closer to the Tau Orca than the Thunderhawk [neglecting size, natch] in terms of what they're supposed to do and how they operate.

And BFG bombers are not the size of 747s, A380s, or An-225s. That is absurd beyond description. Eagles, Darkstars, Starhawks, and Furies are all comparable to Thunderhawks/Mantas in size, which are playable models and not the size of the room you play in. Presuming they are senselessly large is, well, senseless since they all perform the same role and would need to be transported in quantity.

VanHel
13-05-2008, 01:48
May I qoute you in my sig saying that?

Yes. Yes you may.

Sojourner
13-05-2008, 09:34
And BFG bombers are not the size of 747s, A380s, or An-225s. That is absurd beyond description. Eagles, Darkstars, Starhawks, and Furies are all comparable to Thunderhawks/Mantas in size, which are playable models and not the size of the room you play in. Presuming they are senselessly large is, well, senseless since they all perform the same role and would need to be transported in quantity.

Considering that modern heavy bombers are comparable, I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Also, it's what BFG says IIRC.

Partisan Rimmo
13-05-2008, 09:52
I recall reading somewhere that Titan drop pods are one-use disposable things that have to be built around the Titan. Once the drop pod has landed, it literally unfolds and collapses away from the Titan. Is this true? It would make a lot of sense.

*edit* I'm pretty sure the BFG Bombers are 747ish in size. They use Marauders and some of the bigger bombers that aren't named.

MajorWesJanson
13-05-2008, 10:02
When the starships are klicks long, you need a large craft to carry enough munitions to even dent the thing, otherwise, bombers would be inefficient. Smaller bombers can make precision strikes, but the Starhawks and brethren are going to be doing the heavy lifting.

space_kitten
13-05-2008, 10:22
Umm. Imperator is Latin for Emperor. An Emperor-class Titan is an Imperator-class Titan. And vice versa.

A common misconception. It actually means general or commander. However, according to wikipedia ;) "The superheavy Emperor Titans are subdivided into two classes, the Imperator and Warmonger."


I recall reading somewhere that Titan drop pods are one-use disposable things that have to be built around the Titan. Once the drop pod has landed, it literally unfolds and collapses away from the Titan. Is this true? It would make a lot of sense.

*edit* I'm pretty sure the BFG Bombers are 747ish in size. They use Marauders and some of the bigger bombers that aren't named.

40K is fairly close to 1:50 scale. Here is a pic of a 1:50 747. (http://aviationmodels-online.com/photo_gallery/cutaway/page2/saudia742.jpg)

You might be able to coat the titan in ceramic plates to shield it. Remember rate of descent is not related to mass, so its descent will be similar to that of a shuttle (although it will have more air resistance I expect). A disposable drop pod would be more to protect it from impact. As mentioned previously a reusable one would take ages to get out.

As for returning to the space ship, it might even be possible for it to return under its own power. If it could lock its arms and legs in one position (so it looked like a soldier standing at attention) it should not have any problems with stability. It could utilise a similar system to the shuttle, with a large disposable thruster.

Of course the issue with these methods is that the titan is completely defenceless while in flight. At least with a dropship they will have some form of defence (not from the titans though - an impulse that far away from the centre of mass is really going to ruin the pilots day!)

Chaos and Evil
13-05-2008, 10:48
An example of a combat titan dropship could be the Devourer (http://www.pbase.com/tepoc/image/33170745). It's large enough to carry several Reaver Titans, and has significant offensive/defensive weaponry to boot. Larger ships likely exist [the Emperor-class needs to stomp around too] but are probably closer to the Tau Orca than the Thunderhawk [neglecting size, natch] in terms of what they're supposed to do and how they operate.



That Dropship isn't even large enough to carry Warhounds (Unless they're crouched down and shuffle out of the transport on their knees!).

No way it could fit Reavers, it'd need to be at least 50% taller.

Sai-Lauren
13-05-2008, 11:55
You might be able to coat the titan in ceramic plates to shield it. Remember rate of descent is not related to mass, so its descent will be similar to that of a shuttle (although it will have more air resistance I expect). A disposable drop pod would be more to protect it from impact. As mentioned previously a reusable one would take ages to get out.

The shuttle is designed to have an aerodynamic lift surface - drop pods behave more like the Apollo/Soyuz capsules, just without the parachutes to slow their entire descent down.

Reusable ones work ok for marines - the main problem is that a titan one would be a singularly massive construction project requiring thousands of tonnes of raw materials and hundreds of hours to construct - for somthing that's a one shot deal. As I said earlier, the Imperium isn't infinitely rich.

You also can't rely on being able to go back down to the planet's surface to get it back - at least marines should be able to swing a Thunderhawk transporter by to grab a drop pod or two and burn for orbit, anything big enough to grab a Titan version would be a serious target by comparison.

Also, the thrusters required to slow it down to something that wouldn't destroy the titan would be absolutely monstrous, if there's actually enough space to have them and the fuel required - you cannot just scale up from small to large and expect it to work.



As for returning to the space ship, it might even be possible for it to return under its own power. If it could lock its arms and legs in one position (so it looked like a soldier standing at attention) it should not have any problems with stability. It could utilise a similar system to the shuttle, with a large disposable thruster.

Me thinks someone's been watching too many Mecha cartoon series. ;)

Anyway, that wouldn't work, the slightest wind shift or turbulence would likely cause the titan to tumble out of control. They're not exactly aerodynamic when on the ground, let alone at 50,000 feet trying to do a Superman impression.

As for external thrusters, that assumes there's something that can carry it to the Titan. Anything that big (remember the SRBs for shuttle launches are longer than the Shuttle itself as they have to lift the shuttle, the fuel tank and themselves, and the shuttle's own engines aren't anywhere near as powerful as the SRBs are) being transported down would require the kind of transport that would easily carry all those titans down and back up again.



Of course the issue with these methods is that the titan is completely defenceless while in flight. At least with a dropship they will have some form of defence (not from the titans though - an impulse that far away from the centre of mass is really going to ruin the pilots day!)
Which is why they will land in a transporter behind their own lines and walk into combat - titans are far too rare and valuable to risk on the kind of paratroop mission that's being talked about here.

See Operation: Market Garden for some of what can go wrong.

Puffin Magician
13-05-2008, 14:16
When the starships are klicks long, you need a large craft to carry enough munitions to even dent the thingSince when? The B-1b Lancer can carry 16 nukes and obliterate millions of people or vapourize a few carrier battle groups. Even a lowly Lightning carrying 6 rockets is a threat to battle Titans, so it's all David v Goliath. No need for stupidly huge spaceships here.

747's are 70+ meters long, the Marauder is only 19m and the Thunderhawk a mere 27m. Take a Thunderhawk, replace transport capability with 50x Hellstrike Rockets, and you've basically got a Starhawk Bomber [that's the IN's BFG bomber btw]. Doubling the size does not bring it near a 747 either. Even the spindly old B-52 [and just-as-old, but much more awesome Tu-95] is only 50m long. It's dimensions are what I see as the sensible size limits for the Starhawk & Eagle bombers, though they would be much larger in volume and not flying pencils.

BFG sources ramming "they're unbelieveably immense!" down our throats coupled with people's [lack of?] imagination doesn't mean we ignore common sense / reality and just blindly submit that BFG bombers are the size of cities simply because we're told they are. It sounds stupid and doesn't make any sense, but that's just my opinion. Let's not waste time trying to change each other's minds.

That Dropship isn't even large enough to carry Warhounds. No way it could fit Reavers, it'd need to be at least 50% taller.Wrong, do the math and scale it. Mr Mcleod did it for Epic and I did it for 40k. The Dev' is over 90" long and the fuselage is nearly 20" tall. Reavers fit.

space_kitten
13-05-2008, 14:35
Basic physics says that an object will tend to point its longest axis towards the source of gravitational attraction, therefore if it is going fast enough it should be OK. Aerodynamics would help if you are going to try to do complicated manouvres, but TBH all you really want is for it to land the right way up!

Say you use an ion thruster (suitably high tech for you?) with an Isp of 3000, you only need a ratio of launch mass/ dry mass of 1.34 for a delta V of 8.6km/s to get into LEO.

Of course, it all depends what kind of rocket technology they have in M41.

Sai-Lauren
13-05-2008, 16:03
Basic physics says that an object will tend to point its longest axis towards the source of gravitational attraction, therefore if it is going fast enough it should be OK. Aerodynamics would help if you are going to try to do complicated manouvres, but TBH all you really want is for it to land the right way up!

Unfortunatly, you also need to add in aerodynamics, fluid dynamics and possibly also meterology. Imagine something the size and weight of a small tower block on stilts going straight up from London, getting bounced around by local atmospheric winds to whatever height, then suddenly rising into the west-east-couple of hundred mile an hour jet stream winds. Think it's going to stay upright when part of it is being blown one way and the rest another? Especially when it's not exactly aerodynamic in the first place (to quote HHGTTG - hanging in the air in the same way that bricks don't)?

Rockets need specific launch weather conditions - your titan may have to take off in the middle of a thunderstorm.

Anyway, gravity doesn't really care what axis you present to it, as it acts equally upon all parts of the object at a given distance to the gravitational force generating body, the atmosphere (or other fluid medium) is what causes it to "weather vane" and present its lowest profile to the direction of travel.

(Although if an object is spinning and has a particular area of higher than average density, it will eventually tidally lock itself with respect to the other body.)



Say you use an ion thruster (suitably high tech for you?) with an Isp of 3000, you only need a ratio of launch mass/ dry mass of 1.34 for a delta V of 8.6km/s to get into LEO.

Of course, it all depends what kind of rocket technology they have in M41.

Too high tech for the imperium actually ;)

Isp?

Ok, I'll even say you can make a connection and use the titans own plasma reactor as a power source (to save on the weight), but you're still lifting a minimum of about 400 tonnes (warhound), plus that of the thruster unit itself, and that's assuming the titan can actually put out enough power to run the thruster and its own systems without overstressing itself and blowing all the fuses. Especially on higher gravity worlds - not everywhere is 1g.

Maybe in the future, they'll be able to get over the fact they can't be used in an atmosphere as well (even using it as reaction mass to save on lifting fuel), but that will then mean they have to overcome both gravity and air resistance.

And how long would it take to reach orbit? Ion thrusters are sloooow.

I think a lot of people are looking too high tech anyway - yes, somethings may be possible. But, are they actually practical?

Non-infinite wealth, remember?

space_kitten
13-05-2008, 16:27
That figure of 8.6km/s takes air resistance etc into account. You would have to have very strong cross winds to blow the titan off course. They are not exactly aerodynamic, but they aren't bricks either!

There is nothing to say that Imperial forces are not affected by weather; I can imagine that most air units would not deploy if there is a thunderstorm going on (equally I can imagine an imperial commander telling them to get up there and die like men)

It does not necessarily have to be an ion thruster. That was just an example of something with a high Isp. However, given that the level of technology is in some ways superior to ours, it might be possible for them to produce a thruster of a similar (or even greater) specific impulse. What do the Imperial navy use to power their ships anyway?

Burnthem
13-05-2008, 20:56
BFG Bombers were originally quoted as being the size of a 747 by GW, this was later revised to the size of the Space Shuttle when GW realised just how stupid this was. Even a large Cruiser Carrier would be hard pressed to carry/maintain/re-arm/service a fleet of bombers the size of 747s!

Sekhmet
14-05-2008, 04:44
Trying to tackle the problem in an entirely different way...

Could a Titan be disassembled and taken back to a transport ship in pieces?

Hellebore
14-05-2008, 05:01
Trying to tackle the problem in an entirely different way...

Could a Titan be disassembled and taken back to a transport ship in pieces?

Wouldn't that be sacreligious? One does NOT remove the Omnissiah's shins from his ankles, it's just not DONE....:p


Hellebore

LoneSniperSG
14-05-2008, 08:21
Imagine a drop pod. The size of a building. A big building.

OK, Imagine a premier league football ground dropping out of the sky on a pillar of fire. Then one wall of this HUGE box slides open, and a Titan walks out.

Cool.

Then, the Titan walks back into the box, once it's done squishing greenskins/traitors whatever, the box closes and the Adeptus spends a day digiing it out of it's hole, then the whole thinig takes off again, to rendezvous with its support ship.

Thats just cool. I want one....

.. How about a far more durable and more modular metal giant that isn't restricted to raining down in a big box, but can just jump off a ship and not worry about the landing?

Maybe I'm a bit too advanced for the Imperial standards.. hehe..



It does not necessarily have to be an ion thruster. That was just an example of something with a high Isp. However, given that the level of technology is in some ways superior to ours, it might be possible for them to produce a thruster of a similar (or even greater) specific impulse. What do the Imperial navy use to power their ships anyway?

Imperial navy ships are quoted in Execution Hour as having something along the lines of a plasma reactor. A standard cruiser has about six of these.

Sojourner
14-05-2008, 08:52
Imperial navy ships are quoted in Execution Hour as having something along the lines of a plasma reactor. A standard cruiser has about six of these.

That's the power source; doesn't say much about the propulsion. I'd presume it's based on the nuclear engine concept.

Hmmm...

'Plasma reactor' means 'fusion'. Fusion is typically deuterium. Deuterium is found in...

Seawater. Imperial ships could quite conceivably be powered by seawater. Extract the 0.007% or whatever of deuterium oxide and use the rest as reaction mass. (That's reaction in the sense of reaction force; stuff you throw out the back to make you go forward)

Sai-Lauren
14-05-2008, 09:05
That figure of 8.6km/s takes air resistance etc into account. You would have to have very strong cross winds to blow the titan off course. They are not exactly aerodynamic, but they aren't bricks either!

:eek:
You're kidding - imperial titans are walking breeze blocks. The most aerodynamic one's the warhound, whilst warlords are slab sided and have a centre of gravity somewhere around their upper chest.

If they were meant to fly, the machine god would have given them wings. ;)

...
...
...

Hmm, Dragon-class titans... :p

And 8.6 km/s is approximately Mach 27 - the void shields have probably just overloaded from the sustained heat generated (the shuttle comes in at something like 8.2 km/s, and reaches at least 1500 celcius), and the munitions in the weapons are about to cook off, assuming the connections between the titan and the thuster pack don't melt or break apart under the stresses first.



There is nothing to say that Imperial forces are not affected by weather; I can imagine that most air units would not deploy if there is a thunderstorm going on (equally I can imagine an imperial commander telling them to get up there and die like men)

I don't know about you, but I've flown round thunderstorms, in and out of snow bound airports and through heavy rain - and that's in civilian airliners. Military aircraft are a lot more robust, and have to be able to fly, whatever the weather.

Add in static electricity and energy fields from landing transports, defensive shields (including those of the titans themselves) and the backwash from all those energy weapons and orbital support fire is probably going to turn the sky into a plasma globe anyway, and the atmosphere's going to take a long time to recover.

I can easily see titans going to war backlit by a massive thunderstorm of their own generation.



It does not necessarily have to be an ion thruster. That was just an example of something with a high Isp. However, given that the level of technology is in some ways superior to ours, it might be possible for them to produce a thruster of a similar (or even greater) specific impulse. What do the Imperial navy use to power their ships anyway?
I'll ask again, what does Isp stand for?

AFAIK, the Imperial Navy use plasma reactors to power their ships.

And yes, their tech level may be superior to ours. But frankly, the idea of titans strapping on a thruster pack and blasting off for their transport vessel in low orbit is north of ludicrous (and on the road to utterly hatstand). They might as well get a several thousand mile rope ladder dropped down to them for all the sense that makes.

The imperium has to get troops, armour, artillery, super-heavy tanks, praetorian class vehicles (Leviathan and Capitol Imperialis, plus things like the Ordinatus when they're sanctioned), thousands of tonnes of ammunition and supplies, hundreds of support staff and finally titans and skitarri on and off planet.
They would be bankrupt in five minutes if they tried to do all that with one shot drop pods and super-specialised pieces of kit like you're suggesting.

I once played an epic game which had a small force trying to clear out an area for a planetary landing - the dropship was represented with an old Kenner Star Wars Snowspeeder.

The main heavy lift transports would probably be about the size of a 40k Manta on an epic battlefield.


BFG Bombers were originally quoted as being the size of a 747 by GW, this was later revised to the size of the Space Shuttle when GW realised just how stupid this was. Even a large Cruiser Carrier would be hard pressed to carry/maintain/re-arm/service a fleet of bombers the size of 747s!
And when they produced the BFG Thunderhawks and we actually had something to compare back to.


Trying to tackle the problem in an entirely different way...

Could a Titan be disassembled and taken back to a transport ship in pieces?
Well, weapons are supposedly interchangable, but I would also say no - you'd have to have some kind of cradle in place to support the titan as it was being dismantled, plus you wouldn't be able to to it if you had to evacuate in a hurry.

Iracundus
14-05-2008, 09:31
BFG Bombers were originally quoted as being the size of a 747 by GW, this was later revised to the size of the Space Shuttle when GW realised just how stupid this was. Even a large Cruiser Carrier would be hard pressed to carry/maintain/re-arm/service a fleet of bombers the size of 747s!

Actually it was originally BFG Fighters that were supposedly 747 sizes, with bombers being even bigger. The spatial and time scale of BFG as given by the designer was 1cm = 1000km and one turn telescoping from 15 minutes to an hour. If the craft in BFG are zipping tens of thousands of kilometers in minutes to an hour, having a large size might actually be necessary in order to carry sufficient reaction mass. These deep space craft aren't meant for atmospheric work so aerodynamics don't come into play.

Also in BFG, the Thunderhawks fulfill the roles of fighter and assault boat. Admittedly this is where it gets tricky as the Thunderhawks seem capable of moving at the same speed as Imperial Starhawk bombers, and having similar endurance without being gargantuan in size. One workaround might be the fact Starhawks carry anti-starship weaponry requiring the extra size and weight (which then spirals into needing more fuel) whereas Thunderhawks for all their weapons can only manage fighter status and are unable to inflict direct critical damage to starships.

Puffin Magician
14-05-2008, 15:08
I'll ask again, what does Isp stand for?I am quite surprised by you, Sai. Isp is Specific Impulse. The unit for measuring change in momentum per unit propellant for rocket engines. High Isp value engines are like efficient tractors and low Isp values are like gas-guzzling muscle cars [if I remember right].

BFG doesn't really have a scale, and if it does it's so class-specific that it's pointless. Who cares if the escorts are all to scale with other escorts if none of them are to scale with battleships, space stations, or bombers? Starhawks have no reason to be three times larger than a Thunderhawk. A Thunderhawk jumping in and out of orbit twice an hour is comparable to a Starhawk flying a few attack sorties in the same timeframe. It does not deal with any atmosphere, friction, or much gravity. It does not need ridiculous engines for this, and it does not need them for carrying weapons either. The Marauder is a good example. It has an atmospheric range in the [tens or?] thousands of kilometers, delivers a medium bombload, and is armed with defensive lascannon. The Starhawk does not need to be significantly larger to perform essentially the same role in space. Bigger engines? Yes. Alternate payloads such as Plasma missiles and Melta warheads? Yes. Does it need to be 5 times the length and 20 times the volume? Most certainly not.

Sojourner
14-05-2008, 15:20
I believe the derivation we were given in elementary space science was the amount of time a rocket engine can support its own weight in a vacuum on its standard fuel load - or possibly one kilogram of fuel, I forget which.

Sai-Lauren
14-05-2008, 16:12
I am quite surprised by you, Sai. Isp is Specific Impulse. The unit for measuring change in momentum per unit propellant for rocket engines. High Isp value engines are like efficient tractors and low Isp values are like gas-guzzling muscle cars [if I remember right].

Kind of what I thought, but I thought I'd make sure. Thanks.

Still don't think you could lift a marine's bolt gun from planet to orbit with one though, let alone something as heavy as an Emperor titan.


The Marauder is a good example. It has an atmospheric range in the [tens or?] thousands of kilometers, delivers a medium bombload, and is armed with defensive lascannon. The Starhawk does not need to be significantly larger to perform essentially the same role in space. Bigger engines? Yes. Alternate payloads such as Plasma missiles and Melta warheads? Yes. Does it need to be 5 times the length and 20 times the volume? Most certainly not.
Agreed, they probably won't use their engines for their entire mission, they'll likely burn and drift (needs less fuel, so less mass and less inertia to overcome, reduces their signature on the enemies passive sensors (and anyone going with active ones will probably be targetted very quickly), allowing them to sneak in and upset the enemies targetting solutions on them and so on), then make course corrections as required.
So long as there's enough room to mount the flight crew, the engines and fuel, armour, comms, life support, targetting systems, defensive turrets and whatever ordanance they're supposed to carry, they don't need to be big, or even aerodynamic.
They're probably bigger than Marauders, but not too much bigger - maybe at most double the total volume with loaded ordanance (the weapons they carry are released much closer to their targets, so they can be better aimed at weak spots).

Cheesolith
14-05-2008, 17:27
With this being 40k and all, i would not be suprised if they just jumped the titans out of the ships in low orbit with a big parachute.

Champsguy
14-05-2008, 17:47
I think each Titan Legion would have their own methods of delivering Titans to the field. There would not be one uniform system in use throughout the Imperium (nothing else is uniform, so why should this be?). A particularly old Forgeworld with advanced enough technology might just teleport Titans to the battlefield and back. This would, of course, require very specialized ships and a huge amount of power, but it IS possible (it's how the Orks do it).

Titans might be fitted with ceramic heat shields, thrusters, and then simply dropped from orbit. If you land them far enough away from the enemy lines, and accompany their descent with strategically timed attacks/orbital strikes, you could probably guarantee them a relatively safe landing. You might also use a massive Battletech-style dropship to deploy them (some of the Tech dropships were large enough to transport even an Imperator).

Regardless, ANY type of Titan transport is going to use an incredible amount of fuel and resources. I think they would only be transported for the largest of battles -- the fight for planet Hicksville out in the BFE sector of space would probably not have any Titans present. Only major worlds would be important enough for the massive expense of a Titan Legion deployment.

Lame Duck
14-05-2008, 18:24
Couldn't they just send a line down to the titan and reel it back up? The space ship must have enough power to do that.

That or a few thousand litres of red bull.

Sekhmet
14-05-2008, 19:45
What about... a dozen Alpha level psykers, or maybe 4 or 5 Alpha Plus level psykers?

Burnthem
14-05-2008, 20:19
I imagine the Imperium would get awful nervous about grouping enough Alpha-plus Psykers together to lift a Titan into orbit! Remember Alpha-plus guys are monstrously powerful, they can snap Titans like twigs with just a blink. They are the uber-powerful-be all and end all of Psykers.

Nice idea, but IMO not fitting with the phobia ridden Imperium.

Iracundus
15-05-2008, 00:07
So long as there's enough room to mount the flight crew, the engines and fuel, armour, comms, life support, targetting systems, defensive turrets and whatever ordanance they're supposed to carry, they don't need to be big, or even aerodynamic.
They're probably bigger than Marauders, but not too much bigger - maybe at most double the total volume with loaded ordanance (the weapons they carry are released much closer to their targets, so they can be better aimed at weak spots).

Not true on the weapon range. The BFG models are in scale with each other, but not the board which is at a separate scale. Starhawks release their weapons at "close" range in starship weapon ranges, such as when they contact a ship's base which is according to BFG's scale as explicitly stated by the designer is within the last thousand or so km of the ship. That close range in starship combat terms is still far far beyond a Marauder's weaponry. The weapons would therefore need to have sufficient fuel to accelerate and close that final distance at high speed to both avoid point defense fire and hit any intended weakpoints in the target. That fuel in the weaponry would add to more fuel mass that the Starhawk would need to carry.

The Starhawks are also not limited to just drifting in a straight line which if they only did that then might justify a smaller size. Attack craft in BFG are capable of wiggling all over the place and not limited to taking the shortest straight line path. That kind of maneuvering would require significant reaction mass to do such course changes at significant speed to still fit within the time scale.

Puffin Magician
15-05-2008, 00:36
Couldn't they just send a line down to the titan and reel it back up? The space ship must have enough power to do that.A spaceship's power is one thing but the tensile strength of the cable is another matter entirely. Immense strains are put on cables extending to orbit, they'd have to be as far beyond carbon nanotubes as those are beyond steel.

The BFG models are in scale with each other...If that's true then the Fury is over 200m long, which is insane.

The weapons would therefore need to have sufficient fuel to accelerate and close that final distance at high speed to both avoid point defense fire and hit any intended weakpoints in the target.The bombers the missiles are launched from are already travelling quite fast - the missiles don't accelerate from zero towards the target. A missile being engaged at "close" range would not need a huge engine because it's only accelerating for less than a minute before it's destroyed. A medium-ranged ballistic missile is comparable to a Starhawk's ordnance, I think. Say 1000kg and 12m long? Not too big for a bomber that is rather brickish and doesn't deal with wing stress. I don't think they avoid defensive fire as much as they are fired in saturating salvoes.

Attack craft in BFG are capable of wiggling all over the place and... require significant reaction mass to do such course changes at significant speed to still fit within the time scale.We're in space. There's no constant struggle against air resistance and gravity. I'm sure you've seen the new Battlestar Galactica; it's a good example of showing how small craft are quite nimble thanks to a fart of air coming out a vent on the nose or wingtip. Do a few of those while roll/yaw jinking and you're be spiralling all over the place.

Iracundus
15-05-2008, 01:12
If that's true then the Fury is over 200m long, which is insane.

You are taking the quote out of context which was in response to your incorrect assertion that BFG ship models are only in scale with models of the same ship size class. BFG ship models are in scale with each other, not ordnance.



The bombers the missiles are launched from are already travelling quite fast - the missiles don't accelerate from zero towards the target. A missile being engaged at "close" range would not need a huge engine because it's only accelerating for less than a minute before it's destroyed. A medium-ranged ballistic missile is comparable to a Starhawk's ordnance, I think. Say 1000kg and 12m long? Not too big for a bomber that is rather brickish and doesn't deal with wing stress. I don't think they avoid defensive fire as much as they are fired in saturating salvoes.

The missiles are still guided and would need to have enough reaction mass to make course corrections. Also the BFG novels show Imperial anti-starship ordnance can be quite unreliable with a large number of duds, or non-firings. The Starhawks carry a large number of warheads partly as a result of this. Modern aircraft munitions do not have nearly the same unreliability that the Imperium seems to have with its spacecraft.



We're in space. There's no constant struggle against air resistance and gravity. I'm sure you've seen the new Battlestar Galactica; it's a good example of showing how small craft are quite nimble thanks to a fart of air coming out a vent on the nose or wingtip. Do a few of those while roll/yaw jinking and you're be spiralling all over the place.

There is no air resistance but that does not mean one changes course on a dime. Newtonian mechanics still hold true. Vernier thrusters can alter pitch, yaw, or roll a craft but that just affects its attitude and not its velocity vector. If a craft is going to change that vector it is still going to need to apply thrust from its main engines, and in the case of bombers that means they will need to not only accelerate but also have sufficient reaction mass to turn around and kill that velocity in order to make a return trip, and that is only a simple A to B and back again, not the wiggling all over the place courses that ordnance can do in BFG within the time scale of one turn. Those are actual course changes and not merely attitude changes. That is high acceleration and that requires a lot of reaction mass.

Sai-Lauren
15-05-2008, 08:25
You are taking the quote out of context which was in response to your incorrect assertion that BFG ship models are only in scale with models of the same ship size class. BFG ship models are in scale with each other, not ordnance.

I would like to hope that the ships are in scale with each other, sadly, I'm not sure that they are.



The bombers the missiles are launched from are already travelling quite fast - the missiles don't accelerate from zero towards the target.

Launched ordanance would only travel along the same course and speed the bomber was flying on which would make them easy targets for defensive fire - if they do have their own propulsion systems, then they become a harder target, plus they may have to rely on the additional speed for the warhead to penetrate through armour before detonating.



We're in space. There's no constant struggle against air resistance and gravity. I'm sure you've seen the new Battlestar Galactica; it's a good example of showing how small craft are quite nimble thanks to a fart of air coming out a vent on the nose or wingtip. Do a few of those while roll/yaw jinking and you're be spiralling all over the place.

Yes and no, you will affect the enemies targeting solution slightly, making you harder to shoot down, and you can turn yourself into a turret to engage targets, but you're not really maneuvering as such. Your vector is still basically on the direct line that you last used your main engines, and if you're not careful, someone will just work out where you're going to be in a couple of minutes time and put a few dozen rounds there to greet you when you arrive.

That said, B5 Earthforce Starfuries and rebooted BSG Colonial Vipers are probably the only two small craft that have ever got zero-g fighter combat somewhere near right. Everything else just treats it like aerospace combat because that's what people are used to.

Anyway, titans...;)


I think each Titan Legion would have their own methods of delivering Titans to the field. There would not be one uniform system in use throughout the Imperium (nothing else is uniform, so why should this be?).
You're forgetting one thing - the Titan Legions are all controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus - on behalf of the machine god. Not only would there be only one way of doing things for them, it would be exactly the same, even down to the size, thickness and strata of the piece of stone that the instructions to do it are carved into.

Thruster packs, drop pods, ha-lo jumps from orbit, winches, telekenesis...
Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I think about the only things that haven't been mentioned are teleportation (too energy intensive, and this isn't Star Trek anyway - teleporters use the warp, and I doubt the AM would like their precious charges going though that), and Santa Claus delivering it on his sleigh.

What is the most effective, affordable and practical way of getting a titan legion from orbit to a planet's surface?
A big transporter landing behind imperial lines, allowing for everything to disembark in relative safety, and acting as a supply and repair base.

Forbiddenknowledge
15-05-2008, 10:32
The problem with using gothic for scale comes from it really not being scaled very well.

I can accept that the Imperium uses 747 sized "fighters" - fine, but when those same fighters are combatted by Barracuda, you've got to wonder.

Gothic is best not used for scale, I think.

Iracundus
15-05-2008, 10:42
Barracudas have a slower effective speed than Imperial Furies, which given the previous points on speed and maneuvering in space I would say is a factor of fuel reserves and reaction mass. The Imperial Furies might be larger but that extra size I think is more a reflection of the need to carry more fuel which of course leads to the spiralling diminishing returns of increasing mass requiring more fuel which then further increases mass etc...

Gdolkin
15-05-2008, 13:54
Spoiler:



In the 'Iron Hands' novel by Jonathan Green there's a Titan-sized teleporter, for getting Titans constructed on the planet up into ships.

Champsguy
15-05-2008, 15:02
You're forgetting one thing - the Titan Legions are all controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus - on behalf of the machine god. Not only would there be only one way of doing things for them, it would be exactly the same, even down to the size, thickness and strata of the piece of stone that the instructions to do it are carved into.

Thruster packs, drop pods, ha-lo jumps from orbit, winches, telekenesis...
Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I think about the only things that haven't been mentioned are teleportation (too energy intensive, and this isn't Star Trek anyway - teleporters use the warp, and I doubt the AM would like their precious charges going though that), and Santa Claus delivering it on his sleigh.


Hah! You think the Ad Mech is all nice and shiny and uniform? You think they do everything the exact same way? I have some nice oceanfront property on Baal I'd like to sell you...

Oh, and I did mention teleportation.

Puffin Magician
15-05-2008, 15:18
Thruster packs, drop pods, ha-lo jumps from orbit, winches, telekenesis...
Sheesh.Indeed. The Imperium has a few odd bits'n'bobs to play around with, but they're still technophobic and rather old fashioned, so they'll stick with what works and what has worked for millennia: big ships with big rockets.

BFG ship models are in scale with each other, not ordnance.Then why are we arguing? The .pdf that has pictures of the Fury and Starhawk beside each other is a good indicator. If the Fury is Marauder-sized then the Starhawk is easily 3 times the mass and nearly twice as long. That large enough, I gather.

There is no air resistance but that does not mean one changes course on a dime. In the case of bombers they will need to not only accelerate but also have sufficient reaction mass to turn around and kill that velocity to make a return trip. That is high acceleration and that requires a lot of reaction mass.That seems a bit contradictory to me. They can't turn on a dime, right... so they why don't they turn around using a lazy, sweeping arc that doesn't mean extreme deceleration and sudden extreme re-acceleration? Pulling a moderate-G turn within the "close range" of 1000km after releasing ordnance is enough to turn around in. You go from A to B, but not in a single perfectly straight line. The "thrusters" I mentioned on our 40k ships would be big and powerful plasma rockets, in a typically inefficient Imperial manner. Significant course changes were what I had in mind, using several thrusters at once to come to a heading before blasting the main engines for twenty seconds for decent delta vee.

Launched ordanance - if they have their own propulsion systems, then they're a harder target...Well, yeah. I didn't say they were just dumb-fire freefall bombs. Just that a cruise missile fired from a bomber already going 16,000kph is probably harder to intercept than one fired from a stationary launcher. But yes, anyways... Titans. Oops.

Iracundus
16-05-2008, 07:44
That seems a bit contradictory to me. They can't turn on a dime, right... so they why don't they turn around using a lazy, sweeping arc that doesn't mean extreme deceleration and sudden extreme re-acceleration? Pulling a moderate-G turn within the "close range" of 1000km after releasing ordnance is enough to turn around in. You go from A to B, but not in a single perfectly straight line. The "thrusters" I mentioned on our 40k ships would be big and powerful plasma rockets, in a typically inefficient Imperial manner. Significant course changes were what I had in mind, using several thrusters at once to come to a heading before blasting the main engines for twenty seconds for decent delta vee.


You're failing to grasp the way moving objects work in space. Nobody is talking about sudden acceleration or decceleration but about the fact if you have a certain velocity in A direction, you will ultimately need to expend just as much energy as initially expended to accelerate in A direction as to decelerate and then accelerate to a move in the reverse direction. All your talk of attitude thrusters is beside the point and not relevant for the purpose of actual course. The ship's velocity vector would not be affected by such attitude adjustments.

The attack craft in BFG are not simply altering that but actually altering their entire velocity vector over the course of a turn and that is going to take a large amount of reaction mass. Your "lazy turn" if anything is going to require even more reaction mass than a simple 180 as you would be expending main engine thrust in a vector different from the original A to B or B to A, effectively wasting reaction mass. The most efficient would be to only expend energy thrusting in that one axis.

Champsguy
16-05-2008, 15:13
You're failing to grasp the way moving objects work in space. Nobody is talking about sudden acceleration or decceleration but about the fact if you have a certain velocity in A direction, you will ultimately need to expend just as much energy as initially expended to accelerate in A direction as to decelerate and then accelerate to a move in the reverse direction. All your talk of attitude thrusters is beside the point and not relevant for the purpose of actual course. The ship's velocity vector would not be affected by such attitude adjustments.

The attack craft in BFG are not simply altering that but actually altering their entire velocity vector over the course of a turn and that is going to take a large amount of reaction mass. Your "lazy turn" if anything is going to require even more reaction mass than a simple 180 as you would be expending main engine thrust in a vector different from the original A to B or B to A, effectively wasting reaction mass. The most efficient would be to only expend energy thrusting in that one axis.

None of which, of course, matters in regards to how much reaction mass a ship would need to carry, given that we don't know the mass of the ship, the efficiency of the engines, or any other factors. :)

Ships could be anywhere from the size of a 747 to the size of a car. We really don't know much about the equipment they carry, or its efficiency, because there's not much in the way of real science behind it.

Deamon-forge
16-05-2008, 21:46
Alessander;2571224The Titan graphic novels (written by Dan Abnett) have the Titans trasported in massive holds on starcrafts. While there isn't any description of how they get planetside, the series does mention that the machine spirits of the individual titans "dream" when in the holds, sometimes twitching (and scaring the crap out of the ship crew) and resent the confinement.

"it is widely believed that each titan has a personality of its own. Although not thought to be sentient in its own right, a battle titan will develop certain characteristics over a prolonged period of time. Whether it is a result of psychic imprint from every princeps or the incarnation of the machine god, none can say."

I agree when i was reading the book(s) and came a cross the pages were the titan is in the holding bayi was thinking how do they get them down to the planet to do battle.

Iracundus
17-05-2008, 09:15
Ships could be anywhere from the size of a 747 to the size of a car. We really don't know much about the equipment they carry, or its efficiency, because there's not much in the way of real science behind it.

Except we do know the size of the ships and craft involved. GW sources have given the Furies as being the size of a 747, a size which people scoffed at. The earlier posts were to explain just why such a size might not be as seemingly nonsensical as people might intially think, particularly given the inefficiencies and mindset of the Imperium.

Black Antelope
17-05-2008, 16:06
One of the HH books (the second I think) has a small mention about the kind of effort it takes in preparing a titan for landing on a planet, and the lengthy procedure that it is to get it transported back to the ship afterwards.

Let's just say, it doesnt sound easy :p

It is the second:

They are discribed/sound like little more than giant boxes. It goes on to talk about the AdMech having to bring down vast diggers to get them out of the planets soil, and than rockets to get em back up. (Its the time when the Luna Wolves fight the Nurgliods on a swamp, lead by one of Horus's human mates who goes traitor. - Great scenes - The wolves are all 'OMG they dont die when we shoot them, waa our guns are broken')

Puffin Magician
17-05-2008, 17:24
Except we do know the size of the ships and craft involved. GW sources have given the Furies as being the size of a 747, a size which people scoffed at.Gw has retconned dimensions to be sensible before. The Forge World Reaver Titan is obviously not as big as earlier drawings of the Reaver, towering over a flaming city like it's Godzilla. I admit there must be a cliché, dirty, inefficient feel to all things Imperial, Furies and Starhawks no exception, but the rule of cool must be stopped somewhere.

Specialist Games' Ships of the Gothic Sector (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/rulebook.asp) document has images of the Fury Interceptor, Starhawk Bomber, and Shark Assault Boat. These are the small craft/"ordnance" used by the Imperium in Battlefleet Gothic. By using Acrobat Reader's zoom feature you can clearly see cockpits and weapons turrets. Clearly, they are not the size of 747s. The Starhawk and Shark are pretty huge, granted, but the Fury isn't much longer than a Thunderhawk.

They are discribed/sound like little more than giant boxes. It goes on to talk about the AdMech having to bring down vast diggers to get them out of the planets soil, and than rockets to get em back up.I imagine that ships that large would land significant numbers of Titans, say 9 Warlords and 8 Warhounds. Other designs could be utilized by the smaller Forgeworlds who don't have very many titans to begin with. Heavily armoured drop-shuttles designed to land a pair of Warhounds or a single Warlord for "minor" engagements where more Titans would be redundant and too valuable to risk.

Jimbobjeff
17-05-2008, 18:09
imagine that ships that large would land significant numbers of Titans

In that scene in False gods only three titans are being deployed and the ships are referred (sp?)to in the plural, from that I'd assume that one titan per ship makes sense although admittedly they were using an imperator and 2 warlords so maybe the ships carry one imperator or 2 warlords? Just my 2p

Iracundus
18-05-2008, 09:19
Specialist Games' Ships of the Gothic Sector (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/rulebook.asp) document has images of the Fury Interceptor, Starhawk Bomber, and Shark Assault Boat. These are the small craft/"ordnance" used by the Imperium in Battlefleet Gothic. By using Acrobat Reader's zoom feature you can clearly see cockpits and weapons turrets. Clearly, they are not the size of 747s. The Starhawk and Shark are pretty huge, granted, but the Fury isn't much longer than a Thunderhawk.


There isn't any basis on which to make that last statement as there isn't a scale given on those pictures on which to judge the scale of details, nor is there any Thunderhawk to directly compare against in the same image. Clearly there is no grounds to say they are NOT the size of 747's.

Forbiddenknowledge
18-05-2008, 11:54
And of course, there is the bit from the designers, who claim* "Fighters are the size of 747's, and a Battleship is the size of North America"



* No matter how stupidly

Iracundus
19-05-2008, 00:26
There was the statement of fighters being 747 in size but there has never been the claim of battleships being the size of continents. The accepted scale for BFG is 6km length for battleships.

Sai-Lauren
19-05-2008, 08:50
And of course, there is the bit from the designers, who claim* "Fighters are the size of 747's, and a Battleship is the size of North America"



* No matter how stupidly
That would probably have been Andy Chambers, the man who was also responsible for super-heavy tanks in 2nd edition epic being multi-thousand tonne monstronsities. :rolleyes:

A continent sized battleship would need at least a planets worth of raw materials to build it, a systems worth of crew to run it and a sector devoted to just keeping it maintained, fuelled and fed.

Plus anything that large would have it's own gravity well - something that only Space Hulks have been described as having.

Iracundus
19-05-2008, 12:17
Andy Chambers stated the 747 but he never made any statement that battleships are continent size. The only reference I've ever found in BFG discussions to that was in regard to an old Inferno short story where the editors arbitrarily added a 0 to ship lengths in order to make them seem more impressive, only to end up having them look ludicrous. Andy Chambers I think was asked and if anything he said ships are NOT continent sized.

http://www.wolfedengames.com/battlefleetgothic/scale.htm
http://www.wolfedengames.com/battlefleetgothic/crew.htm

The two links above are direct verbatim transcripts of ramblings Andy Chambers made while still in charge of BFG, and give a scale both temporal spatially and in terms of manpower.

johnmcl7
21-05-2008, 00:11
I've possibly missed this if it's been pointed out already, there is a reference to a Titan landing in the third of the Space Wolve series 'Grey Hunter' - Ragnar observes what looks to be an unusually large tranport ship then sees the hatches open and the titan emerges. I don't think it details which model this one is, the only other piece of information is that its weaponry is positioned in parallel which implies that it was slightly disassembled for transport.

John

Puffin Magician
21-05-2008, 03:12
I don't think that implies their disassembly, it's been discussed that carving up a Titan just to move it around would be a huge sacrelige to the Adeptus Mech.

I think it just means their weapons [anything from 'Houd to 'Lord] are pivoted to aim sideways, so they take up less space along the "depth" of the Titan, since normally the weapons stick out a fair bit towards the front.

Sai-Lauren
22-05-2008, 15:29
Agreed that a titan wouldn't be dismantled for drop or recovery (to even replace a single carapace weapon or load a support missile would likely require a full support frame, heavy lifting gear and a senior techpriest plus attendants to bless every bolt and connection as it's undone), although more than likely, the weapons would be crossed over the titans torso (for everything except Warhounds), rather than going outside of it's profile - if it does get jolted and tips on the way down from orbit, the weapons and the mounts are more likely to be damaged if they're outside.

In the HH novel, there might have been additional landers for all of the titan legions support staff, skitari, repair crews, tech priests and so on - and imperial tech may also have moved on from then so that a single transport can put down a titan battlegroup (2-3 warhounds and either a pair of reavers or a warlord - emperors almost certainly have dedicated transports -technological advance in the imperium is glacially slow. It is not however stagnant.) plus support staff. Although they could also have a few smaller transports to put down a single titan and support where it is needed, rather than having to land at the main landing zone and walk all the way to the front lines - by the time it gets there, the battle could well be over, and the single titan transports still wouldn't be able to land behind enemy lines as a pseudo-paradrop assault.

The majority of the legion would still be landed by the super-transporters though.

Wolfblade670
08-06-2008, 03:58
I always pictured them using drop ships ala Battletech where the transport would enter the atmosphere and the titan would either disembark on the ground or would be dropped from altitude and descend via big-ass grav chute(s).