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Akuma
01-05-2008, 19:02
Lord of Change
- Twin Heads - +2 to casting rolls
- Dark Magister - Ignores the Effect of 1 misscast

3x Herald of Tzeensh - Disk - so he flys
- Diss Scroll
- Know all spells from 1 of the 8 basic lores

3x 10 Horrors - I must throw some cores in ...

5x Furies - to sacrifice on warmachines and frenzy troops - sacrifical unit basicly

2x 3 Screemers - to use slaash attack on things

2x 3 Flamers - to dance around and flame people to death ...


Ok The plan is to - Use my magic 15 dice to kill ALL shooty things in opponent army ... then i have only 360 points of easy to catch things in form of my horror regiments ( they will get deployed at the very end of the battlefield in thin line :D )

I know this army is no fun to play and so on but would ONLY get used aginst very unsport and iritating opponents who sport 2 stanks and so :)

Nabeshin1106
01-05-2008, 22:50
I would drop something for more Horrors. A unit of 30 with Bolt of Change would cause some serious damage, and get you a couple extra PD.

Akuma
02-05-2008, 09:23
The units of 30 Horrors are total no go ... the sole reason for this is the fact that unit costs 405 pts with banner and full cc and the worst thing about that is the fact that I have my 1/5 of points stuck in one place on the ground and everything else flys and can easly avoid the enemy - I'll write my tactical view of the new deamons on the main tactics forum - go there and read as i elaborate on synergys beatwean new deamons and army comps :)

Nabeshin1106
02-05-2008, 12:21
I didn't mean for you to take 3 units of 30, just boost one squad up higher, and keep the other two lower.

fubukii
02-05-2008, 15:48
30 horrors with a 4+ ward save are actually quite resilant, add if that you can flank with your greater daemon and its all good :)

theunwantedbeing
02-05-2008, 16:04
Nothing overly scary about that army really.
The horrors are going to be incapable of casting after their first micast most likely. Similarly they'll be fairly easily killed down to a low enough number to stop them being mages anymore.

5 furies arent all that difficult to kill, nor are your 6 screamers or 6 flamers.

And the heralds...if going by RAW always use the lore of tzeentch, so knowing a different lore doesnt help you.

soulcrusher
02-05-2008, 16:46
basically all youve created is a magical empire gun line, with all the CC taken out. pretty useful like you say against st but the opposing player would obviously bring swordsmen , knights etc to cripple you in CC and you cant successfully blast your opponent to pieces 100% of the time

however from a magical point of view that seems pretty nasty, even he and vc will have a tough time dealing with it.

Akuma
02-05-2008, 16:47
30 horrors with a 4+ ward save are actually quite resilant, add if that you can flank with your greater daemon and its all good

Yeah it's quite nice but it cost 405 pts for the unit alone ... lets think of giving them this +1 to cast icon ...


The horrors are going to be incapable of casting after their first micast most likely. Similarly they'll be fairly easily killed down to a low enough number to stop them being mages anymore.

You are aware that the chance of scoring misscast with 2 dices is 2.8% ?


5 furies arent all that difficult to kill, nor are your 6 screamers or 6 flamers.

Yes and now - you must play a lot od theory hammer :) - Flying troops are almost immortal vs armys that dont use much firepower - chaos , beasts , brets and VC - agist them killing my flyers is only aveliable throught magic - and this is the phase I want to dominate ... If enemy has missile troops - I hope he has a lot of it - because furies are totaly expandable - thay will hit him turn two - seekers dont let stand and shoot reaction and on top of that I will have much much magic missile goodnes to have enemy on his toes ...



And the heralds...if going by RAW always use the lore of tzeentch, so knowing a different lore doesnt help you.

:LOL: If you are seriously taking what you said now - I can bet that it will be Faqed in the next banch of Faqs - Or we can argue about steamtanks and IoN agin ? Guys ... this is the same example - why the hell GW would make a gift for 25 points that is totaly worthless ? If someone even trys to advocate this "solution" he should seriously concider theraphy ... remember its a game of plastic troops ...

Necronoxz
02-05-2008, 16:59
I am not realy scared for this list... he have a lot of magic oke... but when you got a little shooting and you shoot tactical good than I think you shoot the hell out of this army...

Akuma
02-05-2008, 18:43
Just thought something out - A lot of you want to shoot me to bits - great but there is one problem ...

Handgun has 24"
Crossbow 30"
the diffrence is 24" but my dep zone has 12" sooo

I can easly deploy myself out of your shooting range - sure bolt throwers and cannon will have range but thay are not a problem for so much condensed magic - the real problem are scores of missile troops - but if I get to swing at them first - due to this "trick" deploying at the very edge of my dep zone as far from enemy as i can - it may easly give me much much needed advantage - remember that lods of my mages will have spells with no range restrictions :)

Also I've revised my rosters - one is in 1500 and other in 2250 as 2K format is just bullS

1 Lord of Change
General; Lore of Tzeentch
Twin Heads
Dark Magister

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Power Vortex
Winged Horror

5 Chaos Furies
5 Chaos Furies

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch

5 Seekers of Slaanesh
Standard; Musician (Siren Standard) Alluress

3x 10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

4 Flamers of Tzeentch
3 Flamers of Tzeentch

Casting Pool: 16
Dispel Pool: 10
Models in Army: 65
Total Army Cost: 2250

The 1500 Variant would be

1 Herald of Slaanesh
General; Lore of Slaanesh
Siren Song
Steed of Slaanesh

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

5 Chaos Furies
5 Chaos Furies

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch

5 Seekers of Slaanesh
Standard; Musician (Siren Standard) Alluress

6 Flamers of Tzeentch
Pyrocaster

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 7
Models in Army: 53
Total Army Cost: 1500

As I say once agin - It is very Point denial oriented army - I want my opponent to struggle to be able to take any portion of it out

One question to the people with the book out there - is master of sorcery changing your lore to the BRB one or simply adds spells ... Maybe by thay always must use it only means that thay have both :> like some GD out there :>

andy10k
02-05-2008, 18:48
remember its a game of plastic troops ...

Well actually your troops are metal, but yeah i get your point lol.

If anyone tried that one on me i would probably lash out :P

FranticDaemon
02-05-2008, 19:05
I tested following list:

Heroes

Skulltaker on juggernaut

2x Herald of Tzeetch
Master of Sorcery (choosing Lore of Tzeetch)
Spellbreaker's gift (dispell scroll)
Flaming chariot of Tzeetch

Heral of Tzeetch BSB
Greater Icon of Sundering (almost hilarious then palying against VC)

840pts total

Core

37 Horrors
Musician
Standart Bearer
Changeling (this thing is frikkin' cheese)
(BSB joins this unit)

12 Bloodletters (can be swaped for Daemonettes against low T/Armor armies)

12 Bloodletters (can be swaped for Daemonettes against low T/Armor armies)

810 pts total

Special

5 Fleshouds of Khorne

5 Fleshouds of Khorne

350 pts total

Exactly 2000 pts

It packs lot of magic power as well as magic defence while still posses lot of dedicated cc units, I massacred another daemon list with this one, and gained solid victory against VC so far, and that horror unit is hard as a nail, it got flank charged by 2 Vargulfs and not only survived but killed them in 2 turns (you should have seen look on VC players face, he was almost certain that he will wipe them out without any resistance, they are ws3 s3 t3 w1 a1 dorks after all :D), the got falnk charged (AGAIN!) by pimped-out Vampire Lord on his chesee-breathing Zombie dragon (dragon had only 2 or 3 wounds left, thanks to BoC from the same Horror unit), won first round (since they (read - Changeling) inflicted some wouns on wargulfs (yay flaming attacks, no regenaration for you :D), which crumbled due to CR that turn), turned to face VL, Changeling exchanged stats with dragon and killed him, and next turn lord then got charged by Skully (you can guess results (hint - it involves killing blow)), and Banner of sundering together with 7 DD pretty much eliminated his magic phase, since he has only 2 lvl2 and 1 lvl4 wizards, so even such unit cost an arm and a leg (about 700 pts is you count BSB), it well worth the cost.

PS. Sorry for bad grammar.

fubukii
02-05-2008, 20:02
well vargs dont negate ranks so i wouldnt expect them to win without support, and the zombie dragon with only 2 wounds left is a horrible idea to charge something. Sounds like the vc player was desperate and rushing into fights recklessly.

Akuma
02-05-2008, 20:10
I'm thinking about using some ranked deamonettes with thet one time stubborn banner - if i could get 20 of them they will hold one turn aginst almost anything and thay are not that big point sink hmmm

Gralph!?!
02-05-2008, 20:16
The 1500 Variant would be

1 Herald of Slaanesh
General; Lore of Slaanesh
Siren Song
Steed of Slaanesh

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

1 Herald of Tzeentch
Magic Level 2; Lore of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
Disc of Tzeentch

10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

5 Chaos Furies
5 Chaos Furies

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
3 Screamers of Tzeentch

5 Seekers of Slaanesh
Standard; Musician (Siren Standard) Alluress

6 Flamers of Tzeentch
Pyrocaster

Casting Pool: 9
Dispel Pool: 7
Models in Army: 53
Total Army Cost: 1500

As I say once agin - It is very Point denial oriented army - I want my opponent to struggle to be able to take any portion of it out

One question to the people with the book out there - is master of sorcery changing your lore to the BRB one or simply adds spells ... Maybe by thay always must use it only means that thay have both :> like some GD out there :>


the list does seem strong but it really does rely on luck a whole lot. one bad magic phase or even a cube of darkness or null stone later and you are utterly screwed as with tzeetch your troops much like others aren't very good at giving out damamge (they take the same amount of damage as khorne and slaanesh which is not a lot as a fare few will die) so a couple of things that may be a good idea to have is to first take away the siren song on the slaanesh herald as you willbe much better off with an etherblade as knights and other hard characters will cause a big head ache for you as they are difficult to take down reliably. the etherblade herald can at least kill off a few knights happily before any survivors beat the crap out of the unit.

the army it self seems ba;anced enought otbe able to take care of itself against normal threats but tornament play will have it whooped.

also i will also recommend a couple of things for you to remember when playing as first, you are immune to psychology, if something is able to charge you, it will kill you since you cannot flee. as such be very careful where you put your units.

shooting units are indeed scary but whats more scary for your army will be fast calvery and skirmishers. those are what you will need to kill, the horrors for example are still **** weak no matter what and so a unit of light cav should be able to kill 5 of them (possibly all if they get a good amount of kills and you balls up the instability test) so they will be a major threat as they can also get a hold of your faster units.

a single unit of furies is the better thing and use them to either hunt warmachines or better yet fly around to open spaces, go near a unit that may flee and charge the unit that flees near them, instant death for the unit that ran and the furies make there points back and then some.

FranticDaemon
02-05-2008, 20:21
well vargs dont negate ranks so i wouldnt expect them to win without support, and the zombie dragon with only 2 wounds left is a horrible idea to charge something. Sounds like the vc player was desperate and rushing into fights recklessly.

The vargs charged at the same flank, so I think they negated rank bonuses (correct me if I'm wrong), as for lord on ZD, he had hatred and the sword that lets you or your unit regain wound for wounds coused by vampire and also Red Fury (power who grants you extra attack for wounds coused), so he expected to regenerate his dragon.

Akuma
03-05-2008, 00:18
the list does seem strong but it really does rely on luck a whole lot. one bad magic phase or even a cube of darkness or null stone later and you are utterly screwed

This is 1500 how on earth you get null stone in ? And how many players use null stone on tourneys ?


so a couple of things that may be a good idea to have is to first take away the siren song on the slaanesh herald as you willbe much better off with an etherblade as knights and other hard characters will cause a big head ache for you as they are difficult to take down reliably. the etherblade herald can at least kill off a few knights happily before any survivors beat the crap out of the unit.

Knights - what for - knights are to slow to catch anything else then horrors - and the siren is the sole best thing in the whole deamon codex ... remember it works in OPPONENT turn - so if i dont want to get shoot by lets say hendgunners or so all i have to do is to throw it on them ...


also i will also recommend a couple of things for you to remember when playing as first, you are immune to psychology, if something is able to charge you, it will kill you since you cannot flee. as such be very careful where you put your units.

hell - where did i wrote that playing for the first time ?


more scary for your army will be fast calvery and skirmishers.

Fast cavalry ? - Very week hitting power - very low AS - easy targets for the screemers and magic missiles ...


a single unit of furies is the better thing and use them to either hunt warmachines or better yet fly around to open spaces, go near a unit that may flee and charge the unit that flees near them, instant death for the unit that ran and the furies make there points back and then some.

Man sorry - I've been playing since 4ed ... from exactly where did you read that I'm new to the hobby ? Or it's just your normal MO ?

theunwantedbeing
03-05-2008, 00:27
Yeah it's quite nice but it cost 405 pts for the unit alone ... lets think of giving them this +1 to cast icon ...
Splitting the unit up is a better idea, more dispel dice and more tries at the first spell

You are aware that the chance of scoring misscast with 2 dices is 2.8% ?
Yes, but that's 2.8% on a single casting....your going to be casting it more than once a game from more than 1 target, your likely to lose something quickly...that and it's not difficult to remove a handful of models off a t3 5+ save unit

Yes and now - you must play a lot od theory hammer :) - Flying troops are almost immortal vs armys that dont use much firepower - chaos , beasts , brets and VC - agist them killing my flyers is only aveliable throught magic - and this is the phase I want to dominate ... If enemy has missile troops - I hope he has a lot of it - because furies are totaly expandable - thay will hit him turn two - seekers dont let stand and shoot reaction and on top of that I will have much much magic missile goodnes to have enemy on his toes ...
screamers are single wound t3 5+ ward troops that happen to skirmish, you hit them and they die....they are also hidesouly expensive. You cant flee as a charge reaction so you can easily be killed by simply being charged...lots of magic missle spells maybe, but they arent that massive range..certainly not great enough to outshoot the enemy...if you can hit them, they can hit you.


Comments in bold.

Gralph!?!
03-05-2008, 00:59
This is 1500 how on earth you get null stone in ? And how many players use null stone on tourneys ?

Its and example, i was merely stating stuff that would screw you over since if you lose your magic phase you are boned.

Knights - what for - knights are to slow to catch anything else then horrors - and the siren is the sole best thing in the whole deamon codex ... remember it works in OPPONENT turn - so if i dont want to get shoot by lets say hendgunners or so all i have to do is to throw it on them ...

yes but how can you deal with the knights reliably instead of hoping for strength 6 on fire of tzeentch? or by some other magic? besides your opponent can leave the knights at the battle line for a counter charge unit very easily which can then charge your units that still cannot flee and then proceed to smash said unit to bits.

yes the siren ability is rather good, it forces your opponent to charge or run, i know but they must be able to charge you in the first place. so your unit will have to be close enough to use the ability and you will have to bee seen. all it takes is for a single magic missile or volly from bows or what ever and good bye seekers. it is a game of stratagy, some one can bring counters to what tyou use and what you play.

hell - where did i wrote that playing for the first time ?

i said no such thing to you playing your first game or any other suchthing, i said "also i will also recommend a couple of things for you to remember when playing, as first you are immune to psychology, if something " ok i can see where you got confused as i used bad grammer. meh.

Fast cavalry ? - Very week hitting power - very low AS - easy targets for the screemers and magic missiles ...

again, stratagy game, it has counters, this army does have weaknesses, we are pointing those weaknesses out to you, just because you army is based around a single stratagy doesn't mean it will always work. you only have so many spells and units to kill of threats with and if your opponent jams so many threats down your throat then your utterly screwed, in the above examples you say the screamers are able to deal with fast cav, skirmishers, and magic for shooting units and such, what if some one stops most of your magic and you bugger you rolls for kill the enemy units then you are stuffed. i am not going into a whole rant about picking holes into your stratagy here but there are ways practically every army can beat yours.

Man sorry - I've been playing since 4ed ... from exactly where did you read that I'm new to the hobby ? Or it's just your normal MO ?

uh huh, i have a freind who has been playing 40k since 2nd ed, still doesn't mean he is the best player in the world. hell i have another friend who has been playing warhammer for as long as you but that still doesn't mean he is the best ever at the game. besides i NEVER said anything about you being a beginner. i forewarned to you some of the more overlooked issues you could face in a game.


after reading your responses, you must realise that on the internet, you post an army list you must expect people topick holes in it or other suggesting ways to better it but it appears you do not want to listen at all and in the end, i do think your usename akuma is rather fitting for the army itself and for your behavour, truly fitting for some one who calls them selves a demon.

Malagant
03-05-2008, 02:05
With all due respect, Akuma, why are you posting this army list if you do not want to receive constructive criticism? I think that you have reacted very negatively and with great hostility to every constructive criticism that has been offered.

Every army has strengths and weaknesses. By posting an army list in this forum, one would expect people to point out both. If a person does not want to have the weaknesses of their army pointed out, then perhaps they should not post their army list.

Again, no disrespect intended...but you are being VERY disrespectful to folks that are trying to be constructive and helpful.

That being said, I think the three small units of Horrors seem very fragile and would not fit MY style of play at all...I hate not having a modicum of static CR! :) I think it would be very capable, however, and with average rolling you'll do an incredible amount of magic damage. I don't really understand why you classify it as a point-denial army, but perhaps that's your mindset as you play more than the army list itself.

Akuma
03-05-2008, 19:31
constructive criticism?

I've posted it for constructive criticism and not for responses like - You would get pwned with XXX and so on.


Its and example, i was merely stating stuff that would screw you over since if you lose your magic phase you are boned.

Null stone is 100 pts ... how can you take one in 1500 pts - I'm saying that on tournaments most people dont know if thay are going to play vs magic heavy army so thay take scroll caddie mostly ...


yes but how can you deal with the knights reliably instead of hoping for strength 6 on fire of tzeentch? or by some other magic? besides your opponent can leave the knights at the battle line for a counter charge unit very easily which can then charge your units that still cannot flee and then proceed to smash said unit to bits.

If I go vs lods of knights I'll take 2x Lore of Metal on my heralds ? 2d6 no as high S attacks ? - Or uranon thunderbolt ? if said knights are in small numbers and supported by some form of magical attacks ?


yes the siren ability is rather good, it forces your opponent to charge or run, i know but they must be able to charge you in the first place. so your unit will have to be close enough to use the ability and you will have to bee seen. all it takes is for a single magic missile or volly from bows or what ever and good bye seekers. it is a game of stratagy, some one can bring counters to what tyou use and what you play.

Siren needs only 20" range - but the point is that this is total VP denial army

The concept of VC denial is that you identify threats to your plan - such as missile troops - warmachines and flyers - then try to outmanuver them and destroy them ASAP - if you do thet enemy has no way of catching your very fest and mobile force - then you proceed to exterminate his army pice by pice

I'm acctualy sorry for sounding like a sob :( I pretty much appriciate each and every comment you and all others gave ! It's just my english isnt good enought to express my opinion in non hostile way :/ guess i'll have to work on it - sorry guys and thx agin for the imput on the list !