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Pontus
02-05-2008, 12:49
Did a search on this item but found no posts. So... my question is, is this item broken?

Its a 50pt banner that can only be carried by a BSB. The effect is that you choose a lore of magic, and all spells being cast from that lore is at -2 to cast, and if lore of light is chosen they also misscast on a double 1, 2 or 3.

Imho this pretty much shuts down the lists that rely (or that are forced) to use a specific lore. Ogres, Orks, Vampire Counts and Skaven spring to mind. I am well aware of the discussion wheater ION is part of the vampire lore or not, but honestly, that wont make much difference.

So what do you think?

EDIT: Missed out the second part of the spell where it only affects lore of light, making this post kind of moot

ehlijen
02-05-2008, 13:05
When is that decision made? Before or after the opponent announces what lores he is using?
Are you sure it can be any lore, or just any of the 8 base lores?

Assuming you're making an all comers list, it isn't actually that bad, because the odds are that you will face a list that gets a choice of lores (assuming you have to pick before they do).

Gazak Blacktoof
02-05-2008, 13:17
Nope you pick the lore after they roll for spells.

Its certainly very good for the 50 points. Its better than +2 to dispel and +1 to dispel costs 30 - 50 points depending on the army.

Broken? Well I don't know. Daemons certainly don't generate many dispel dice normally so it might be fairly balanced and whilst it might be OTT in a tzeentch force its probably also a waste of points.

I guess you'll have to play some games to find out if its too good for its points.

Kinsley
02-05-2008, 13:17
hah never mind, Gazak got it!

Gazak Blacktoof
02-05-2008, 13:19
No. Any lore, after spells are picked (exactly when I don't remember) and the extra miscast abilites are against the lore of light (which has anti-daemon spells).

Urgat
02-05-2008, 13:55
And I assume that works for every spell, not just the ones targetting the BSB/unit hosting it?

Gazak Blacktoof
02-05-2008, 13:57
Yep its all spells from that lore (I think even friendly ones).

Urgat
02-05-2008, 14:49
For 50 points? I dunno if it's broken or not, but when I see my own selection of magic standards, I certainly feel a bit frustrated...

Wargamejunkie
02-05-2008, 15:00
You pick the lore after you deploy. So you know what spells lores are being taken.

In addition lore of light if I recall mistcasts on double 1/2/3's which is nice.

I wouldn't say this item is broken solely because of the lack of dispel dice that is usually generated in a deamon army.

That and it will be completely worthless against some opponents.

I played a 2250 list the other day (Nurgle) and had all of 5 dispel dice.


The item is good and I would expect to see it a good bit in all the armies but Tzeentch and the LD modify slaneesh(only because they should choose the -2 LD banner)

AFK in Life
02-05-2008, 15:37
Hmm has anyone tried this against vampires yet?

As far as I know the banner does say lore of magic, so their unique lore should count.

javaguru
02-05-2008, 16:08
Hmm has anyone tried this against vampires yet?

As far as I know the banner does say lore of magic, so their unique lore should count.

Unfortunately, Invocation isn't part of their lore nor is drain magic part of the high elf.

Urgat
02-05-2008, 16:11
Unfortunately? 0.o

Da Black Gobbo
02-05-2008, 16:27
For 50 points? I dunno if it's broken or not, but when I see my own selection of magic standards, I certainly feel a bit frustrated...

With my WE i feel exactly the same...

javaguru
02-05-2008, 16:33
Unfortunately? 0.o

Unfortunate for the daemon player and fortunate for the VC player. Depends on which side of teh table you're sitting, VC and Daemons are my favorite armies and my oldest.

Teran
02-05-2008, 16:35
To miscast you need to be rolling more than one dice anyways and I don't know a whole lot of vc players who use two+ dice for invocation.

Belerophon709
02-05-2008, 16:36
...nor is drain magic part of the high elf.

Incorrect. Drain Magic is part of High Magic. Read page 46 of the High Elf Army Book. The mage only has Drain Magic if he chooses High Magic as his lore. If he chooses one of the other 8, he doesn't get Drain Magic. Invocation is different, as a vampire with Forbidden Lore who chooses one of the lores from the BRB, still maintains Invocation.

The only "loreless" Drain Magic, is the Slaan one.

fubukii
02-05-2008, 16:38
it says lore of magic, what if their spell list doesnt have lore in it

For example skaven use skaven magic :) thats right rules lawyering time! back at you demon players who claim invo is part of the lore of vampires because its in the same book.

Lijacote
02-05-2008, 16:38
To miscast you need to be rolling more than one dice anyways and I don't know a whole lot of vc players who use two+ dice for invocation.

I don't know too many VC players who want to roll on one dice with a -2 to cast in effect. And remember,


No. Any lore, after spells are picked (exactly when I don't remember) and the extra miscast abilites are against the lore of light (which has anti-daemon spells).

It doesn't give the chosen lore miscasts on double 1's, 2's or 3's. Just the -2 is enough, however...


it says lore of magic, what if their spell list doesnt have lore in it

Pretty sure all lists of spells are lores.

Shamfrit
02-05-2008, 16:44
Obviously, the way to deal with this banner is to destroy whomsoever happens to be carrying it...that however, is not easy as it's often a Herald on some nasty mount with absurd stats.

-2 to cast isn't that bad on some lores, Warp Lightning on 11+ is not that hard on 3 dice, which is what most cast the 9+ version on anyway.

Oberon
02-05-2008, 16:48
Well, only TZ characters can get scrolls (heralds?) and spelleaters, so their defence is quite weak (dice can and will fail you, scrolls never do). There are other good banners too, but IMO it is not too broken. (As long as I can cast invocation of nehek without the penalty, of course. )

javaguru
02-05-2008, 16:54
Incorrect. Drain Magic is part of High Magic. Read page 46 of the High Elf Army Book. The mage only has Drain Magic if he chooses High Magic as his lore. If he chooses one of the other 8, he doesn't get Drain Magic. Invocation is different, as a vampire with Forbidden Lore who chooses one of the lores from the BRB, still maintains Invocation.

The only "loreless" Drain Magic, is the Slaan one.

A pointy ear has been cheating me, I need to purchase another army book.:wtf:

Shamfrit
02-05-2008, 16:56
Your opponent can however choose Lore of Vampires, effecting Nehek and all it's users, even if your Lord is using one of the College Lores.

The Clairvoyant
02-05-2008, 17:04
It certainly sounds like its a strong banner.
Broken? No. Its just different.

For one thing, as you say, it can only be taken by a BSB which means he's targetable in close combat unlike a unit standard.

As for invocation, i'd be happy to count it as part of the vampire lore for fairness sake. 9 time out of 10, i'm using it on skellies rather than zombies so with my Lord of the Dead power i paid a whole 15 points for, that -2 modifier becomes -1 and doesn't seem all that bad. And i can still try and cast it several times.
Vampire players, myself included, have nothing to whine about in terms of this banner.

In fact, thinking about it, most 'cheap spells' are 5+ so you'd be rolling 2 dice anyway, most mid-list spells are around 8+ where you're likely to roll 3 dice and the big nasty end-of-list spells you tend to throw buckets of dice at anyway. I'd say the -2 has been very carefully worked out so that most of the time you won't need to add extra dice to get a spell off, though it will be easier to dispel. And if my other skim-reading is correct, daemons don't get that many wizards (and therefore dispel dice) in the first place.

So i stick with my original statement - its not broken at all. I actually quite like it.

javaguru
02-05-2008, 17:21
It certainly sounds like its a strong banner.
Broken? No. Its just different.

For one thing, as you say, it can only be taken by a BSB which means he's targetable in close combat unlike a unit standard.

As for invocation, i'd be happy to count it as part of the vampire lore for fairness sake. 9 time out of 10, i'm using it on skellies rather than zombies so with my Lord of the Dead power i paid a whole 15 points for, that -2 modifier becomes -1 and doesn't seem all that bad. And i can still try and cast it several times.
Vampire players, myself included, have nothing to whine about in terms of this banner.

In fact, thinking about it, most 'cheap spells' are 5+ so you'd be rolling 2 dice anyway, most mid-list spells are around 8+ where you're likely to roll 3 dice and the big nasty end-of-list spells you tend to throw buckets of dice at anyway. I'd say the -2 has been very carefully worked out so that most of the time you won't need to add extra dice to get a spell off, though it will be easier to dispel. And if my other skim-reading is correct, daemons don't get that many wizards (and therefore dispel dice) in the first place.

So i stick with my original statement - its not broken at all. I actually quite like it.

For Slaanesh/Nurgle, maxing on spell casters in 2k points gives you 7 dispel dice but it's 50 pts to get a lvl1 wizard for Slaanesh/Nurgle and it takes 120 pts to upgrade a GUO or Keeper from a lvl1 to a lvl 4. Easily looking at 1k points in characters.

Urgat
02-05-2008, 17:46
It As for invocation, i'd be happy to count it as part of the vampire lore for fairness sake.

Why would you do that? I just got the VC armybook and, checking it, the spell certainly isn't in the vampire lore list.


9 time out of 10, i'm using it on skellies rather than zombies so with my Lord of the Dead power i paid a whole 15 points for, that -2 modifier becomes -1 and doesn't seem all that bad. And i can still try and cast it several times.
Vampire players, myself included, have nothing to whine about in terms of this banner.
Wait till you face that banner and the staff or sorcery in the same army :p

Scythe
02-05-2008, 17:54
Wait till you face that banner and the staff or sorcery in the same army :p

Do daemons even have access to common magic items? (not sure, can't remember from the time I scanned trough the book) I seem to remember they can only take daemonic gifts as always, but I could be wrong...

javaguru
02-05-2008, 18:02
Do daemons even have access to common magic items? (not sure, can't remember from the time I scanned trough the book) I seem to remember they can only take daemonic gifts as always, but I could be wrong...

No, and daemonic gifts don't count as magic items.

The Clairvoyant
02-05-2008, 18:09
Why would you do that? I just got the VC armybook and, checking it, the spell certainly isn't in the vampire lore list.

i know it isn't but it seems a bit silly to have the spell immune to the effects.
I'm one of those players who likes an even-tempered battle and getting into an argument over whether a spell does or does not form part of a lore is not time well spent.
The way i see it, regardless of what page it appears on in the book, its still a vampire spell. If necros can take that and/or either or both of the other 2 necromancy spells then it infers that the 3 spells are similar in their nature, hence all 3 should be subject to the same effect from this daemon bannery thing. I'll be sure to not count it as such if i ever play you though! :D



Wait till you face that banner and the staff or sorcery in the same army :p

I'll be sure to pick up my skull staff before i leave the crypt :p

ZiggyQubert
02-05-2008, 18:26
keep in mind that it actuly is -2 on there roll to cast not +2 to the casting value (like the HE anti magigg spell) so it makes it harder for them to cast spells without making it harder for the DL player to dispell, a small but noticable effect.

riven5
02-05-2008, 18:29
If you want to talk about the possibility of IoN being, or not being, part of the Vampire Lore, go here...

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139833&page=2

As far as it being broken, I really do not see how. Many armies are not constrained to using a single type of magic, and those that are generally can find ways to circumvent it. Ogres, for example, probably wouldn't mind -2 to casting Gut Magic quite so much because most OK Butchers typically cast on two dice anyways. Hitting a 3+ with a -2 casting modifier is quite easy.

I doubt I'd care too much if my opponent brought it, especially considering what other Daemon BSBs are available. +D3 CR or -2 to enemy LD within 12"? Ferocious!

IcedCrow
02-05-2008, 18:35
I don't see it as broken in anyway. I see it as a tool given to an army. Other armies have similarly annoying items that effect different mechanics of the game. So be it.

Mercules
02-05-2008, 18:48
Ogres, for example, probably wouldn't mind -2 to casting Gut Magic quite so much because most OK Butchers typically cast on two dice anyways. Hitting a 3+ with a -2 casting modifier is quite easy.

Not really... Maybe to start with to draw out dice. We also will sometimes start out with one die. 3+ means 66% chance of casting the spell which means they use up a die dispelling and an okay chance of rolling 5 or 6(33%) which might push them to use 2 dice to our one. Once their dice are gone we are even more likely to use one die. This pretty much eliminates that and might even mean they can dispel our 2 dice cast spells with a single die. The miscast table for Ogres is pretty harsh. You can conceivably kill all your Butchers in one magic phase with only one miscasting.

Gralph!?!
02-05-2008, 19:07
ok it is a bit of a powerful banner but it isn't that bad at all. the lore of light isn't used alot but against daemons it will kick the snot out of them. the miscast thing is fair since NOTHING is required to take the lore of light at all. the -2 to cast is due to the lack of dispel dice. unless you take a couple of units of horrors you are utterly stuffed against a magic army and even then someone just needs to shoot them a little and then they are dead. the big banner of doom which the op seems to think is broken will simply stop low level spells being spammed at at the daemons which will get the a nice swift ticket back to the immaterium.

besides i would MUCH prefer to take either the icon of chaos glory which will make it sop much harder for the daemons to die from losing combat (they really suffer) and allows them to have a fighting chance in a war of attrocity but against it is expensive as it costs 150pts with out the herald to take it who then can take upgrades. in this case the standard of sundering will be a very nice looking point sink. as it is a daemon and for the most part it will only have a ward save of 5+

andy10k
02-05-2008, 19:13
Are those banners stackable?

Wondering if in a tourney 2 Tzeentch players (for example) met each other with that banner and both placed it on the lore of tzeentch, would that be -4? lol.

Volapyk
02-05-2008, 19:34
Going to a 2v2 tournament this weekend, i damn well hope i wont face a double deamon team with 2 of those. Even more as we are playing 2 vampire players, -4 to vampire lore is indeed no fair :P

Gralph!?!
02-05-2008, 19:35
yes in that situation then it would be at -4 for both players as it specificaly says that ALL spells from the lore chosen is at -2 so 2 of the same banner would stack (one from you and one from your opponent)

now do things like vampire magics and high elf magics count as a lore of magic or what? if they do not and they count as some spells for that race only then the banner will not affect them.

riven5
02-05-2008, 22:59
now do things like vampire magics and high elf magics count as a lore of magic or what? if they do not and they count as some spells for that race only then the banner will not affect them.

I would be absolutely shocked if Gut Magic, High Magic, Lore of Vampires, etc. was NOT considered to be a lore of magic for the purposes of this banner. Frankly I just don't see why they wouldn't be. "Oh but they're not specifically called "lores", so they must not be affected" is a pretty odd take on things.

But I'm sure some rules lawyers (which are oh so prevalent here on Warseer) would happily argue this point simply because they don't want the Banner of Sundering to affect them. Note that I'm certainly not calling you out on this at all Gralph, not at all. I'm just putting it out there; the rules lawyers will argue this point, despite it being a matter of common sense.

Again, not attacking you Gralph. Just saying the storm is brewing, and the rules lawyers who don't want their majestic and perfect armies to be injured by this obviously loathsome and poorly worded new addition from GW will certainly take any and every opportunity to poke holes in its usefulness.

/rant :D

javaguru
02-05-2008, 23:14
I would be absolutely shocked if Gut Magic, High Magic, Lore of Vampires, etc. was NOT considered to be a lore of magic for the purposes of this banner. Frankly I just don't see why they wouldn't be. "Oh but they're not specifically called "lores", so they must not be affected" is a pretty odd take on things.

But I'm sure some rules lawyers (which are oh so prevalent here on Warseer) would happily argue this point simply because they don't want the Banner of Sundering to affect them. Note that I'm certainly not calling you out on this at all Gralph, not at all. I'm just putting it out there; the rules lawyers will argue this point, despite it being a matter of common sense.

Again, not attacking you Gralph. Just saying the storm is brewing, and the rules lawyers who don't want their majestic and perfect armies to be injured by this obviously loathsome and poorly worded new addition from GW will certainly take any and every opportunity to poke holes in its usefulness.

/rant :D

I would have to smack a VC player that tried to argue "Lore of Vampires" isn't a Lore.:D

bert n ernie
02-05-2008, 23:35
I think that the banner is a little too powerful against certain foes. I'm not too happy about it, as even if a person states that it ONLY makes it -2 to cast, I say that that is more than enough to completely alter how many die I roll for many of my spells. I can no longer get skitter leap on one dice. This may not seem like much, but that can hurt me a lot. I also am looking for a 15 for plague. That is certainly four, not three, dice.
The most poignant example is the fact that it disrupts Skaven's ability to get irresistible force quite a bit.
I don't think it is broken, but I do think it is under costed, as are a few other parts of the list. This is just a more glaring example. I would have put that banner at 75pts.

adreal
02-05-2008, 23:58
So if I face a daemon list, I'll just take a scroll caddy and then mount a prince on a dragon.......if they are going to insist on this banner, magic isn't the only way to fight daemons (a TOAC list or a tournie list, this would be a prince on even steed, but thats niether here nor there)

Gralph!?!
03-05-2008, 01:29
I would be absolutely shocked if Gut Magic, High Magic, Lore of Vampires, etc. was NOT considered to be a lore of magic for the purposes of this banner. Frankly I just don't see why they wouldn't be. "Oh but they're not specifically called "lores", so they must not be affected" is a pretty odd take on things.

But I'm sure some rules lawyers (which are oh so prevalent here on Warseer) would happily argue this point simply because they don't want the Banner of Sundering to affect them. Note that I'm certainly not calling you out on this at all Gralph, not at all. I'm just putting it out there; the rules lawyers will argue this point, despite it being a matter of common sense.

Again, not attacking you Gralph. Just saying the storm is brewing, and the rules lawyers who don't want their majestic and perfect armies to be injured by this obviously loathsome and poorly worded new addition from GW will certainly take any and every opportunity to poke holes in its usefulness.

/rant :D


nah its fine, i was merely throwing the thought out there. simply put, it gets it out of the way as some one was bound to ask that question and now it clears all doubt in every ones mind that such a question would be stupid.

i would deem any thing to be a lore of magic even if it doesn't say it is a lore.

now i have a couple more questions with this banne,r again getting them out there, do you think this would effect khemri magic i.e. would it reduce the power level of there magic and the last is would it effect the dwarfs anvil. i do not have the dwarf book on hand so i cannot check that out properly. with the khemri i am inclined to say it would lower the spells power since the wording goes along the lines of "all wizards suffer a -2 to casting spellsfrom that lore" while the khemri are bound spells would that reduce there power or not (not regular bound spells as they are already cast at the set value given.

ReveredChaplainDrake
03-05-2008, 02:16
i would deem any thing to be a lore of magic even if it doesn't say it is a lore.

Except for Slanns and their Lore of Salad Bar. :p Done right, I don't see why a Slann would ever take multiples of a single Lore, unless rolling on Fire or Death produced a 2d6 Missile when merely aiming for a 1d6 missile. And my Dark Elves poo-poo on Magic anyway.


now i have a couple more questions with this banne,r again getting them out there, do you think this would effect khemri magic i.e. would it reduce the power level of there magic and the last is would it effect the dwarfs anvil. i do not have the dwarf book on hand so i cannot check that out properly. with the khemri i am inclined to say it would lower the spells power since the wording goes along the lines of "all wizards suffer a -2 to casting spellsfrom that lore" while the khemri are bound spells would that reduce there power or not (not regular bound spells as they are already cast at the set value given.

Anvil: No! Of course not, that would be total, unfounded, and incoherent idiocy. (In other words, expect an erratta, likely with courtesy to Direwolf, claiming yes. ;))

Khemri: Yes. However, even if they roll a natural 1 (ending up a -1 with the banner), it still casts the spell, and IIRC TKs are the only race whose magic breaks the "+3 to cast" rule. The opponent simply has to throw the dice straight to dispel it (as they can't roll a -2 to fail), but still they're throwing dice at it, and from what I'm hearing from defenders of the banner is that Daemons don't have that much in the way of DDs. So no, I don't think TKs would be particularly hindered at this, unless you get into a situation where a spell must go off and you only have a single D6 to do it.

isidril93
03-05-2008, 07:27
remember that there are some armies that dont use magic at all (dwarves and khorne) and that only affects one army and many armies have access to more than one lore(i use high magic and beast)

Tizz
03-05-2008, 07:59
Except for Slanns and their Lore of Salad Bar. :p Done right, I don't see why a Slann would ever take multiples of a single Lore, unless rolling on Fire or Death produced a 2d6 Missile when merely aiming for a 1d6 missile. And my Dark Elves poo-poo on Magic anyway.



Anvil: No! Of course not, that would be total, unfounded, and incoherent idiocy. (In other words, expect an erratta, likely with courtesy to Direwolf, claiming yes. ;))

Khemri: Yes. However, even if they roll a natural 1 (ending up a -1 with the banner), it still casts the spell, and IIRC TKs are the only race whose magic breaks the "+3 to cast" rule. The opponent simply has to throw the dice straight to dispel it (as they can't roll a -2 to fail), but still they're throwing dice at it, and from what I'm hearing from defenders of the banner is that Daemons don't have that much in the way of DDs. So no, I don't think TKs would be particularly hindered at this, unless you get into a situation where a spell must go off and you only have a single D6 to do it.

So what does that mean for Tomb Kings and Dwarfs? DO Tomb Kings have -2 to their roll to see what that spell is cast on? And Do Dwarfs have to roll a 4+ to successfully strike a normal rune and a 6 for an Ancient power rune?

My pure Khorne army and I eagerly awaiting the official FAQ on this

adreal
03-05-2008, 08:33
I personally would say that the banner has no affect on the anvil, as it happens in the shooting phase now, not magic

Gralph!?!
03-05-2008, 08:50
one would assume so as it states that the anvil doesn't cast any spells but it instead you roll a dice on a 2+ an effect happens that happens to work like magic except you cannot stop it. so no the anvil is going to be immune.

Urgat
03-05-2008, 09:24
I would have to smack a VC player that tried to argue "Lore of Vampires" isn't a Lore.:D

"Begins to type down something about salamanders"
"Thinks better of it"

:p

Ixquic
03-05-2008, 11:25
It wouldn't be broken if demons couldn't mix and match stuff and it was a Khorne banner. However now the demon army can generate 9+ dispel dice if they use horrors as core. -2 to cast along with that means that any other army isn't getting a magic phase. Anywhere on the board means if your opponent is smart, you won't be able to get to the banner without going through several other units and it won't lose any of its effectiveness. It's pretty broken.

Von Bismarck
03-05-2008, 12:14
against my slannesh BoC that will be retardedly strong, 8+ for the basic spell >> i mean come one thats 3 dice to get a good chance to cast.

i wount mind playing it occationally but if i see that every game i will just refuse to play armies with it.

kinda seems like stanks, ok now and again (on their own) but every game just becomes silly.

W0lf
03-05-2008, 12:18
'Omg a new army has something i wish my army had!!!! Broken ubercheeseofdoom111!!!11"

seriously though.. its a nice item hardly amazing. I wouldnt take it over -2 to enemy LD, even against skaven SAD. But then my army has 4 DD and the least resiliant hing is T4 with 5+ ward and regen. Hmmm

EndlessBug
03-05-2008, 13:11
-2 to cast spells from a single lore?

Really not that harsh, Vampire counts get it too, except theirs is on a 'core' choice and costs 25 points per modifier, and that is to ALL magic not just specified to a single lore.

Sure, Vamps might suffer a little from it, Ogres too. But then other armies can easily avoid it. You're taking a whole BSB choice for anti magic, what happens when you face dwarf or khorne, or simple little to no magic armies, that uber model of doom now does crap all.

What I'd be complaining about more is the -2 Ld banner, on top of the masques -d3 Ld ability, - 3 to 5 Ld from any enemy you like?! EVEN Stubborn, so those oh so reliable troops are now only stubborn on Ld maximum of 7, Greatswords might even end up being stubborn on Ld 3! The maximum leadership of any army is now 8! you realise that is only just over half Ld based tests passed (average roll being 7)?

Want a nice little alliance idea?

Daemons and Vamps? -2 -D3 Ld, cast doom and darkness for -3 more = roughly -7 Ld, then banshee the guys, that is ANY model reduced to maximum 3 Ld.

Daemons + any auto panic causing units - lotsa failed saves.

Daemons + mortal chaos - doom and darkness and the above abilities, what's that I beat you in combat by 1 and you're immune to fear? guess what your Ld is still only 2, double 1's it is again.

I'd be more worried about the combos that Slaanesh can now come up with when allied.

Lijacote
03-05-2008, 13:14
Want a nice little alliance idea?

Daemons + daemons + daemons... etc. Until a given lore can no longer function.

Ixquic
03-05-2008, 13:30
-2 to cast spells from a single lore?

Really not that harsh, Vampire counts get it too, except theirs is on a 'core' choice and costs 25 points per modifier, and that is to ALL magic not just specified to a single lore.

Sure, Vamps might suffer a little from it, Ogres too. But then other armies can easily avoid it. You're taking a whole BSB choice for anti magic, what happens when you face dwarf or khorne, or simple little to no magic armies, that uber model of doom now does crap all.

What I'd be complaining about more is the -2 Ld banner, on top of the masques -d3 Ld ability, - 3 to 5 Ld from any enemy you like?! EVEN Stubborn, so those oh so reliable troops are now only stubborn on Ld maximum of 7, Greatswords might even end up being stubborn on Ld 3! The maximum leadership of any army is now 8! you realise that is only just over half Ld based tests passed (average roll being 7)?

Want a nice little alliance idea?

Daemons and Vamps? -2 -D3 Ld, cast doom and darkness for -3 more = roughly -7 Ld, then banshee the guys, that is ANY model reduced to maximum 3 Ld.

Daemons + any auto panic causing units - lotsa failed saves.

Daemons + mortal chaos - doom and darkness and the above abilities, what's that I beat you in combat by 1 and you're immune to fear? guess what your Ld is still only 2, double 1's it is again.

I'd be more worried about the combos that Slaanesh can now come up with when allied.

The difference between the banner and the Corpse Cart with balefire is that the corpse carts have a range of 24" and aren't on characters that can hide in units, and you have to pay for 150 points worth of models that most people really don't want. A hero that can still take his full alowance of magic demon abilities plus the banner is much more useful and maneuverable than two corpse carts which can be easily picked out by shooting, magic (if it goes off) or flyers.

Milney
03-05-2008, 13:43
Your opponent can however choose Lore of Vampires, effecting Nehek and all it's users

IoN isn't a part of the Lore, for crying out loud. It's not Forbidden Lore that makes it "Lore-less". It just is.

Forbidden Lore just shows an explicit example of it not being part of the Lore of the Vapires.

I swear, I'm going to start cracking some heads together...

javaguru
03-05-2008, 13:52
The difference between the banner and the Corpse Cart with balefire is that the corpse carts have a range of 24" and aren't on characters that can hide in units, and you have to pay for 150 points worth of models that most people really don't want. A hero that can still take his full alowance of magic demon abilities plus the banner is much more useful and maneuverable than two corpse carts which can be easily picked out by shooting, magic (if it goes off) or flyers.

Corpse carts are awesome, I always try to field two. All undead within 6" have ASF! It's also surprisingly resilient with regeneration and those 2d6 attacks have tipped the balance. The 24" range isn't much of a problem since most spells fall within that category. I actually took three in a 2250 game and my high elf opponent was not pleased. Plus, you can put it in a unit and "hide it" if a Necro has it as a mount. I've considered two carts with necros(van hels) combined with ghoulkin in units of ghouls. I don't know how it would work out but it's an interesting thought.

Also, the corpse cart works against all magic, not just a single lore. My DoW army includes multiple lores, Truthsayer plus one or two support casters.

Sylass
03-05-2008, 13:58
[off topic]
Isn't the corpse cart meant to work like a monster? That would result in being unable to join units...

Or do I suffer from foggy memory again? :)
[/off topic]

Milney
03-05-2008, 14:51
[off topic]
Isn't the corpse cart meant to work like a monster? That would result in being unable to join units...

Or do I suffer from foggy memory again? :)
[/off topic]

It's a monster, but when taken as a mount for a Necromancer it becomes a montrous mount - which can join units.