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ga1661
03-05-2008, 05:37
Local place near me is holding a 2250 tournament, special characters and DOW are allowed, no comp scores, no objectives, just four straight Pitched Battle games scored on normal VP, highest total of VP differentials over the four games is the winner.

I've come the conclusion via numerous playtest games that RBTs are far over-costed and not worth their points against almost 50% of armies you face. Consequently since DOW are available, I'm looking to use cannons instead, especially with the high number of chariots/dragons that people are using.

Need advice on fine tuning one of these two lists, not sure which would be better to run and/or which is better... looking for any and all constructive criticism here...

List 1 (Ultra-defensive with magic and shooting):

Teclis
Lv 2 Mage with Seerstaff of Saphery, Powerstone - 185
Lv 2 Mage with Dispel Scroll, Jewel of the Dusk - 170
Noble BSB with Armor of Caledor, Great Weapon - 143

10x Archers
10x Archers

20x Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Amulet of Light and Banner of Sorcery - 395
21x Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Skeinsliver and War Banner - 390

2x DOW Cannons
2x Great Eagles

Total: 2248
PD: 11 + 2D3 + Powerstone
DD: 6 + D3 + 2 Scrolls

***********************
List 2 (Ultra-offensive with cover-fire):

Prince on Moon Dragon with Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armor, Vambraces of Defense, Lance - 530
Dragon Mage Lv 2 with Silver Wand, 2x Dispel Scroll - 435

10x Archers
10x Archers

5x Dragon Princes, Chp & Std with Banner of Ellyrion - 235
5x Dragon Princes, Chp & Std with War Banner - 240
5x Dragon Princes, Chp with Amulet of Light - 215
5x Dragon Princes, Chp with Skeinsliver - 225

2x DOW Cannons
2x Great Eagles

Total: 2250
PD: 4 + Reckless Dice
DD: 3 + 2 Scrolls

aenarion67
03-05-2008, 05:56
WOW both lists are really great. but with your first list if u face a gunline army cause it is tournament with no comp scores then u will be facing quite a few gunlines. the first list basiclly dominates the magic phase turn one. however its going to be hard to contorl the magic as cannons are preety hard to use if u dont know your inchs (foolish manling warmachines) but the first list is preety nice. i may use it sometime. u got 2 hard hitting units in cc. i like it.

the second list when i read it i was like CHEESE!!!!!. i like it thoguh its kinda fluffy. but wiht the cannons not so fluffy anymore. maybe u could find some spare points to make your moon dragon to a star dragon. a star dragon is well worth its points because of the additional wound and attack and str and ws. nice list and hard hitting.

Spyro35
03-05-2008, 15:02
I would say if you're entering a tournament, dont worry about the "cheese" factor since you're playing to win.

I would go with the 2nd list for sure. I'm only wondering if you really need champions for your DPs. I recognize this is supposed to be a very fast, hard hitting list. I'm more or less a little not too sure about your dragon mage. I personally dont think hes very good, especially for the points you're paying. My suggestion would only be to switch out the dragon mage and replace with 2 mages. Depending on what lore you give them, they could go in your archers or join up with DP units. This could also potentially free up a lot of points to either get you more cannons or beef up the DPs some more. This also gives you more DDs, which would be valuable when dealing with TKs and VCs.

ga1661
04-05-2008, 21:28
Concerning the second list, the choice was between 3 stronger Dragon Prince units with a Star Dragon mount, or 4 strong units with a Moon Dragon mount. Normally I'd say the upgrade is too cheap to ignore for the benefits you get, but with only 2 scrolls for magic protection, I think you need to run 4 units to make sure you have enough CC strength.

Champions are better than Standards where you are trying to create multiple smaller (and thus slightly weaker) units because you don't need to be so worried about giving away VP for captured standards if you have a bad round of combat. It allows you to be more reckless with your units and run them into toss-up combats because the biggest risk of expensive heavy cavalry units is having them broken and having their standard captured. Additionally you don't see as much of a drop-off in CR as you normally would from taking a Champion over a Standard because of the strong lance attack.

Scroll caddies don't win games... having two dragons can. I'll concede that the rider makes it somewhat of a liability, but at US6 it can negate rank bonuses, it causes terror, and you still have a breath weapon. Running your Dragon Mage into the front of fully ranked infantry unit probably won't cause the same damage as your Prince on Star Dragon, but that's why the latter costs 50% more.

I have played the 2nd list against TK twice, and I wrecked them both games. The games weren't anything remotely near close, and my opponents were not stupid. They simply couldn't do anything with their SSCs because of the Dragon Armor on almost everything relevant (HE are the one army where the flaming is really bad), and their troops are woefully inferior, even with crazy-casting of movement spells.

I fully expect to lose to 20+ PD VC lists, but thankfully, I have it on good information that only 2 VC players will be present, and one of them is someone I know to be absolutely insane about making sure his armies are fluffy.

Can't run more cannons because I need to run 2 Eagles for march blocking / war machine hunting, although in a larger game I would certainly consider more of them.

WhiteKnight
05-05-2008, 01:12
Both lists are amazing for this tournament. I would recommend you increasing the strength of your army units and less on your characters. Too many points on characters will lose focus of your army.