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Kissaholic
03-05-2008, 21:53
Well I hear everyone complaining about how VC can raise zombies but there ass why isnt eveyone complaining about how TK can heal every single unit on the board? too me I would way be more pissed when I kill a Ushabti then they summon them all back and have 2 attack phases!!

So am I missing someithng or are people just complaining about VC cause more people play them and they just got a new dex?

theunwantedbeing
03-05-2008, 22:05
VC's can heal a damn sight more than TK's can.
Ushabti only get 1 attack each when they have smiting cast on them, not 3 each.

Kissaholic
03-05-2008, 22:34
Well its was just an example perhaps i should of used Tomb Gaurd as a better example or chariouts

theunwantedbeing
03-05-2008, 22:44
I thought maybe your opponent had been wittingly/unwittingly cheating and giving you the wrong impression.
Note that Tomb kings get to cast 5 spells a turn maximum at 2k, some of which will be making a unit move/fight/shoot others will be healing units by D6 or D3 wounds.
That's not that much compared to what the VC's can do.

VC's dont need their movement spells so long as they have vampires in the right place.
TK's need their movement spells to keep up with normal movement.
VC's can also heal a lot, Tomb kings lose 1 heal per magical move they make.

There's a major difference.
VC's are just plain better at raising and fighting than TK's are.

Jack of Blades
03-05-2008, 23:05
Tomb Kings haven't had their army book updated. Vampire Counts have. That nulls any argument of VC being imbalanced against TK.

Kissaholic
03-05-2008, 23:18
So how hard is it going to be for a TK army to beat a VC army?

Oenghus
03-05-2008, 23:59
Not very. Take Casket of Souls and a Staff of Sorcery. Watch the one-die-casting thing melt away like snow in springtime. Fire scorpion-missiles at their characters. Remember that Kings are immune to the Fear and the Terror and the whatnot.

Once you bring their magic down to reasonable levels, they're not unduly tough. Well. It'll still be a bloodbath, with little left standing at the end, but most of it ought to be yours. More than half of it, anyway.

FashaTheDog
04-05-2008, 02:10
As a new Vampire Counts and Fantasy Battle player (I last played 3rd edition) who will be facing a Tomb Kings army in my welcome back to Fantasy battle what can I expect to be in for? I have familarized myself with the rules and have general knowledge of Tomb Kings, although the details are fuzzy. The game will be 1,000 points a side and my list is below. Please bear in mind I can only add 2 Fell Bats, a necromancer, 6 skeletons with hand weapons, one wraith, and 22 zombies (these I will be raising).

Vampire Count: Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death, Biting Blade, Walach's Bloody Hauberk
Wight: Tomb Blade, Dispel Scroll
Necromancer: Septre de Noirot, Dispel Scroll, Level 2 Wizard
23 Skeletons: Spears, Full Command w/ Banner of Hellfire
21 Skeletons: Full Command
5 Dire Wolves
3 Fell Bats


1011

sulla
04-05-2008, 05:28
Tomb Kings haven't had their army book updated. Vampire Counts have. That nulls any argument of VC being imbalanced against TK.

Why's that? Aren't they allowed to play each other at the moment?

Jack of Blades
04-05-2008, 06:00
Why's that? Aren't they allowed to play each other at the moment?

Well, it's like whining about a Caveman not being able to fight an Apache Helicopter, when he's got a Rocket Launcher next to him (ie. an update). That's not the best explanation, though.

I mean you can't really say that VC are imbalanced compared to TK, because they're not in the same edition of updating. I mean, of course you can... but that's like saying an Apache Helicopter is imbalanced compared to a Caveman.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 06:24
Well I hear everyone complaining about how VC can raise zombies but there ass why isnt eveyone complaining about how TK can heal every single unit on the board? too me I would way be more pissed when I kill a Ushabti then they summon them all back and have 2 attack phases!!

So am I missing someithng or are people just complaining about VC cause more people play them and they just got a new dex?

You are missing alot.

My TK got their boney asses handed to them on a plate by VC magic. It wasn't even funny. I felt like I was playing a super version of TK... Super summoning/healing.... protection against crumbling... multi-cast van hels.... I swear TK was supposed to be unique in doing all this? I guess not :(

Counts can summon and summon and summon.... TK can, um, heal d3 wounds on an Ushabti??? That doesn't seem special anymore actually. Its like, oh nice! You lost 10 models due to impacting chariots... oh, and now you can regen your crumbling? nice... and now you just regrew 13 models? Oh how quaint... I can raise d6 skellies myself!

Huff....

Anything TK used to do well at, VC just plain do better. Maybe when we have our book updated in 2014 things might be better. But then again, we'll probably get an 'Orc and Goblin' type of 'fun' dex....

Milney
04-05-2008, 10:38
Vampire Count: Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death, Biting Blade, Walach's Bloody Hauberk
Wight: Tomb Blade, Dispel Scroll
Necromancer: Septre de Noirot, Dispel Scroll, Level 2 Wizard
23 Skeletons: Spears, Full Command w/ Banner of Hellfire
21 Skeletons: Full Command
5 Dire Wolves
3 Fell Bats


1011

Erm, do you have the book?

For starters Wight Kings can't have dispel scrolls (Arcane Items), and Necromancers can't be upgraded to Level 2.

Instead give him the Flayed Hauberk, which makes him one of the hardest Hero choices currently in Fantasy.

Swap out the Necromancers Sceptre de Noirot for the Black Periapt.

Other than that you've got a fairly solid base to a VC army.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-05-2008, 10:59
At 1000 points tomb kings just can't cut it. No marching and limited magic at this points value should see VC dominate both the magic phase and the movement phase. In combination this should see them dominate combat and shrug off the odd bit of missile fire.

The one good thing about tomb kings is that their magic always works and you can't miscast. VC have silly numbers of power dice and low casting values so the odd failure shouldn't matter.

Tomb Kings will need to be updated carefully. Nothing needs to get worse and they need a slight boost to their raising ability and improved mobility.

soulcrusher
04-05-2008, 12:28
true, i was just wondering have you ever hoped / wondered wether vc might get some form of missle power? e.g. when mannfred von carstein laid siege to marienburg ( or was it altdorf? ) they were supposedly catapults made out of sinew,bone , wood etc. however it would be to similar to the tk catapult, o well we can hope when they get there second second release ( ? ) if the ' pirate zombies ' are a second release

what do you folks think?

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 13:25
Tomb Kings will need to be updated carefully. Nothing needs to get worse and they need a slight boost to their raising ability and improved mobility.

To put is par with VC we would need....

More power dice.
Crumbling can be saved by the regen banner we should get
Skeletons, and horsmen should be dropped in points
Catapult needs to loose flaming
Special characters that aren't garbage
And magical items which allow us to actually stand up past one turn versus the new army book characters in combat
Something that lets us take the fight to dragons

Darkangeldentist
04-05-2008, 23:52
I had a recent 2000pt game with VC versus Tomb kings. It was a lot of fun. He had a stonking magic phase thanks to a Liche high priest and the casket of souls. My vampires weren't really kitted out for magic but the magic phase was pretty even. I happily let him cast some spells as did he. The tomb kings only real problem was not being able to force certain spells off. (The high priest being the only really reliable caster.)

The casket and dispell staff make a great combination for stalling a vampires magic phase.

The Vampires won in the end, largely because Tomb kings have very few options for taking down Cairn wraiths. (The catapults just can't hit them reliably enough.) My unit of 6 blood knights didn't help him either. However the game itself was pretty close.

The new vampires really, really hate the casket. It was painful. I kept everything huddling round my vampire lord just because if my dispel dice failed me anything away from him could easily have lost large chunks of units. I rolled terribly for as it turned out and even with ld 10 from the lord I lost a scary number of wounds to the thing.

I think the tomb kings are still a good army but one that needs a great deal of finess to reliably win with.

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2008, 00:10
To put is par with VC we would need....

More power dice.
Crumbling can be saved by the regen banner we should get
Skeletons, and horsmen should be dropped in points
Catapult needs to loose flaming
Special characters that aren't garbage
And magical items which allow us to actually stand up past one turn versus the new army book characters in combat
Something that lets us take the fight to dragons

TK dont even use powerdice, more ability to cast spells would be more like it.
ie. 2 spells per liche priest onsay...a 2+
3 per liche high priest, etc etc

VC need crumbling to be unsavable, like with the new daemons and the current TK, as currently its frankly rediculous that you get something as reliable as a 4+ regen against it.

Slightly cheaper troops would of course help greatly.

The flaming of the skull catapult is a big problem when facing the high elves, huge problem. Simply down to how dragon armour works.

Your character's are generally hard as nails, your casters are generally rubbish.

Skull catapults already kill dragons, as do your fully ranked tarpit units.
Dragon armour is the problem here, not dragons.

Psyan
05-05-2008, 01:08
That +4 ward save vs crumbling that everyone is talking about is a banner... and it costs over 120 pts and can only be taken by the BSB. Yes, it's awesome.. but if you consider what it costs and the fact that it can only affect one unit at a time, I think that you'll find that it's not really over the top.

intellectawe
05-05-2008, 01:14
That +4 ward save vs crumbling that everyone is talking about is a banner... and it costs over 120 pts and can only be taken by the BSB. Yes, it's awesome.. but if you consider what it costs and the fact that it can only affect one unit at a time, I think that you'll find that it's not really over the top.

Oh, it helps against the wounds first and then crumbling second... its over the top. I don't think I've seen a model with 4 saves before in a looong time.

Max zero
05-05-2008, 04:43
Oh, it helps against the wounds first and then crumbling second... its over the top. I don't think I've seen a model with 4 saves before in a looong time.

4 Saves? What are you talking about?

Do you even have the VC book?

FashaTheDog
05-05-2008, 05:03
Oh nuts. I tossed that list together based off of what I had on the fly and missed that second scroll as the Wight was originally a two spell necromancer with a Nightshroud and Dispel Scroll. As for the level 2 bit that was suppose to be a second spell but I wrote the wrong thing. Still, close enough for government work. Just means I need to proof read better than I have.

Figure I'll make those changes and check the points on paper (rather than my head). From there I'll run a couple of games (Tomb Kings will most likely be my regular foe but pure Goblins could make an appearance since I have about 1,500 points of them) and get an idea of the new system. From there I'll add in another 500 points of probably Black Knights as I have eight of them I need to assemble and paint once I can get five more horses for them. Either that or find those all those Hero Quest skeletons and zombies in the attic and add more units and maybe get a few more Wraiths and a Banshee to form a unit. I have enough Hero Quest stuff that I could always take the Nightmare Legion (the skeletons with spears) and turn them into Tomb Guard slapping on the Banner of the Barrows. Not too sure which option is better, the Black Knights and some odds and ends or the Tomb Guard and another big unit or two of skeletons and/or zombies. Any thoughts? Incidently no purchases of more than a blister of two (the aforementioned Wraith and Banshee) will be made so I must make due with what I own.

Max zero
05-05-2008, 05:19
While VC have an edge on TK it is far from the insanity spouted by some in this thread.

The main advantage VC have over TK is mobility. So if your the TK player keep a very close eye on your flanks. Close combat between TK and VC is a very slow affair and losing CR from flanks will pretty much lose you the battle.

TKs main advantage is much better shooting attacks. A Casket of Souls is beyond brutal and a SSC will do a number on any infantry unit not to mention pretty much negate the regen banner. A good VC player knows this so will try to take both of them out. Make sure you keep a couple of units of archers back to fend off bats and wolves.

FashaTheDog
05-05-2008, 19:03
I play Vampire Counts so those chariot and horsemen units do worry me some as I only have two non-magically fast units (both at minimum size). With the two spell necromancer capable of bolstering the ranks and/or moving the units and a level 2 wizard vampire I hope to be able to raise zombie units and "danse" the skeletons around enough to mitigate the natural mobility of the Tomb Kings leaving the two armies to grind one another into dust with attrition (hopefully) being on my side. My plan is to try and lock everyone into drawnout combats (not too hard with large blocks of skeletons on both sides) and then raise a few zombie units for flank charges while refreshing the ranks through the vampire's Tomb Blade and a few Invocation of Neket castings. Not too sure how it will go since this will be my first battle since 3rd edition (where the game was mutually assured magical destruction as vortices and daemon portals were all over the table with auras constantly being raised and dropped until one side ran out of MPs and was annihilated).

Clegane
05-05-2008, 20:57
4 Saves? What are you talking about?

Do you even have the VC book?

Armor Save, Ward Save, Regen Save, plus Ward Save against CR loss and Regen Save against CR loss. That means that one VC unit, properly equpped, could essentially be getting some variation of that many saves per combat phase. Obviously, very few units are going to have THAT many saves, but a single unit or character having 4 of the 5 is certainly not out of the question.

Omens
06-05-2008, 03:03
Only characters can get a ward save, not blocks on infantry in the vc book.

Max zero
06-05-2008, 05:41
Armor Save, Ward Save, Regen Save, plus Ward Save against CR loss and Regen Save against CR loss. That means that one VC unit, properly equpped, could essentially be getting some variation of that many saves per combat phase. Obviously, very few units are going to have THAT many saves, but a single unit or character having 4 of the 5 is certainly not out of the question.

Wrong.

The saves for CR wounds are separate from wounds cause from actual fighting. You never actually take 5 saves in a row.

If you get wounded by say a Spearman you take (in order):

Armour save, Ward Save, Regen save

THATS IT.

If you lose a combat you take wounds based on how much you lost by instead of taking a break test. You take (in order):

Ward Save, Regen save

The most saves you can ever get against a single wound is 3, not 4, not 5, THREE.

Add to that only characters get ward saves in combat and in general they kinda suck. One is 45 points for a 5+ (4+ armour) and the other is a 4+ but makes that character subject to stupidity. No Collar of Sharpesh here. The best your RnF can do is 2 saves (armour and regen) and only the regen works against CR wounds.

Finally that regen banner costs costs 125 points plus the cost of the BSB itself would make the character cost close to 250 points. Thats about the same cost as a 20 strong unit of Grave Guard. Not something your going to see much below 2250/2500.

Clegane
06-05-2008, 06:56
Wrong.

The saves for CR wounds are separate from wounds cause from actual fighting. You never actually take 5 saves in a row.

If you get wounded by say a Spearman you take (in order):

Armour save, Ward Save, Regen save

THATS IT.

If you lose a combat you take wounds based on how much you lost by instead of taking a break test. You take (in order):

Ward Save, Regen save

The most saves you can ever get against a single wound is 3, not 4, not 5, THREE.



You're still making X amount of saves in a single close combat phase. I don't care if you're taking them in rapid succession or not, it is still possible for a character (however expensive or unfeasible it may be) to take 5 individual saving rolls in a single turn of combat, despite only having ever been hit once.

I'm not saying thats a good thing or a bad thing or anything at all, other than responding to your earlier post claiming that no one in VC could take 4 saves.

4 saves from the exact same wound? No. But a character can still take a single wounding hit in a combat and wind up rolling a sum total of 5 saves that round. 3 from the original wound and 2 more from the CR wound result.

Again, I understand the way the rule works and I understand what you're trying to say. I was merely trying to explain what I believed intellectawe's frame of reference to be, since you obviously missed his point.

Max zero
06-05-2008, 07:39
But the saves are split between 2 wounds. Do you count a character rolling a armour save against 4 separate wounds as having 4 different saves? No it is one save used 4 times.

The regen save and the 'Regen Save against CR loss' are the the same save just put on two separate wounds. Two separate wounds, two seperate rolls to saves.

The same applies to the Ward save and 'Ward Save against CR loss'.

The 'Ward Save against CR loss' and 'Regen Save against CR loss' are there is save against a 2nd wound not the original wound. Even if you pass 'Ward Save against CR loss' or 'Regen Save against CR loss' you have still taken a wound from the original hit.

Conclusion:

Vampires have a maximum of 3 saves: Armour, Ward, Regen. If its a CR wound you can't use armour, if its a flaming wound you can't use regen. There is no 4th or 5th save.