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Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 16:36
Hi,

Had a rules dispute last night regarding bloodthirster charging my HLP. Can the bloodthirster fly over one of my units and get a charge on the same turn.

Thirster (his + fly)
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enemy unit (flys over my unit of skeletons)
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Target of charge

No idea how to keep my High Liche Preist safe if this is possible.

Thanks for the help.

theunwantedbeing
04-05-2008, 16:41
Yes he can. Page 68

You'll do well to charge him first with something to prevent him from charging your heirophant.
He has to be within 20" of your heirophant to get the charge, which means he's going to be in a chargable position for your own troops (quick troops...not skeltons or such).
He's also forced to overrun due to hatred to throwing say....skelton light horsemen at him can mean he can be stuck in combat with a big block of skellies when he overruns.
That big block of skellies can hold in place easily enough simply by challenging him and beating him by combat resolution.

Remember to fire your skull catapults at him if you can.
Dont waste shooting on him though, you'll want to use that to mow down opposing daemonic troops (as most will go down fairly quickly to bows).

Jonke
04-05-2008, 16:43
Yes he can.

Place your liche closer to the skeleton unit so there isn't enought room to place the thirster or just stay more than 20" away from it.

Masque
04-05-2008, 16:44
It was a legal charge assuming there was room for the Bloodthirster to fit between the the Skeletons and the Liche.

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 16:45
Thx guys... not the news I was looking for, but I appreciate the quick response. Thanks for helping a newish player.

Starting to think my Tk doesn't match up well against my bro's Daemon list. Good thing it was just a trial run proxy battle. Was actually doing quite well until I couldn't find an answer for the blood thirster.

Chicago Slim
04-05-2008, 21:39
Remember that he has to keep 1" distance from the uncharged skeleton unit, so if you keep the heirophant 2 1/2" behind the skellies, he won't have room to charge you (though he could call "enemy in the way" on the skellies, and if he kills them all, he can over-run).

Bloodthirsters are a nasty customer, for sure, but you definitely have answers-- ranked up infantry, especially with a hard-to-kill Tomb Prince or Tomb King (who should issue a challenge) will give him trouble (since you start with 5 points of combat resolution, and he'll only earn CR for wounds delivered to your hard-to-would character...)

Remember, also, that the Bloodthirster has limited line-of-sight (he can only see the front 90 degrees, because he's neither a skirmisher nor a US 1 model), which you may be able to use, to keep your Heirophant from getting charged...

EvC
04-05-2008, 21:48
You don't have to stay more than 1" from any enemies whilst charging. So definitely do not keep any characters more than 2" behind an enemy unit. Chicago Slim is correct in telling you how to defeat a Bloodthirster- ranked up infantry, plus re-raisable champions. Play your cards rights and you could even pop the bugger. Three wounds from a Tomb King with Flail of Skulls will do it too.

RavenBloodwind
05-05-2008, 03:55
To the OP: it's not the flying per se that allows the thirster to charge your second unit. It's the fact he's a large target and can see over the first unit coupled with the fact he's a flyer and can move over the intervening unit that makes this work. Non-large flyers would not be able to do this (unless you or they were on a hill and could therefore see you) and large target nonflyers would hard pressed to based on only being able to wheel once during a charge.

Milgram
05-05-2008, 05:58
Place your liche closer to the skeleton unit so there isn't enought room to place the thirster or just stay more than 20" away from it.

well, normally you have to finish a charge move on the 'side' of the unit you started the charge - i.e. in the front, the flank or the back. but a single character US1 is a skirmisher and you always charge him into the front and wherever you touch him, you will be in the front. so one could question whether you are able to 'outfly' skirmishers and charge them from behind. (we had this situation lately with pegasus knights on the edge of impassable terrain that were charged by a dragon mage.)

(this is not an advise but more of a question...)

Lord Aries
05-05-2008, 06:40
Acctually it specifically says that you have to charge the closest skirmisher to you, and charges have to move in the fastest way to bring the most models...

Its possible to hide your priest behind a unit and be fairly safe.


He's also forced to overrun due to hatred

Bloodthirster does not have hatred (and now that he is not frenzied) you do not have to overrun or charge things you don't want to with it. He does have a power for 25 points that acts like eternal hatred, but it is NOT hatred. It just says he can re-roll his hits.

You might want to think about shooting him with a SSC, it can do d6 wounds.

The other thing that works well, is to take 5 tomb swarms and tunnel up and charge him... They will take 5 wounds a turn from him, but it takes him out of the game for 3 turns. They have a chance to wound him, with poison.

That or take Khalida or whatever her name is, and get a **** ton of poisoned shots at him. Because he is a large target your whole unit can shoot no matter their formation. You could have a unit of 30 archers in a rank N file 5x6 formation, and get all 30 shots at him, and if you were poisoned due to the girl, you would rip his face off. Take a few units like that, and large targets will never be a problem again.

Milgram
05-05-2008, 07:57
Acctually it specifically says that you have to charge the closest skirmisher to you, and charges have to move in the fastest way to bring the most models...


yes, as he is the closest skirmisher in the unit (on his own) you do nothing illegal.

the fastest way is also to the side of the character as there is no way 'through' the skellies. and doing so, he brings the most models in contact - one on each side, both characters.

imagine this:

BT

ROCK
-S-----S-S-S
---S-S--S-S

S=Skirmishers,
BT=Blood Thirster
ROCK=impassable river - named rock.

if you argue with 'fastest way', then this unit is not attackable for the BT as the fastest way would be to the skirmisher behind the rock - which he could not charge as he would then 'have' to land on the rock (erm, I mean river). this seems to me the same as the lich priest situation.

xragg
05-05-2008, 13:25
Where do you get "the fastest way" rule? I dont see a reference to that in the BRB. In your diagram, it can be argued that the BT will charge the closest skirmisher he can fit his base in front of, "as per a normal charge". This really relies on how one interprets the "as per a normal charge" reference. Take this for example:

KKKKKK


ROCK
sssssss

K=knight
s=rank'file nubs
ROCK=impassable terrain

Normally if the ROCK wasnt there, the knights would have to charge in a way so that as many nubs are in contact. Since the ROCK is there, legally the knights are now allowed to "clip" the nubs, as the ROCK prevents some nubs from coming into base contact. This is the "as per a normal charge" rule that could allow the BT to hit the closest skirmisher his base will fit in front of.

Still, the rulebook is quite vague with its "as per a normal charge" phrase, and I can see this one being argued from both ends.

Milgram
05-05-2008, 14:56
the part with 'the fastest way' i get directly out of lord aries post. :)