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Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 17:01
Played my brother's new daemon list last night w/ my Tk at 2250. I was doing quite well until I couldn't find an answer for the bloodthirster. The guy is super fast and is fully able to wipe out any unit I have even with a frontal charge.

And it's not like the rest of the list has much to sneeze at with the flamers, blood letters, horrors, fury's, flesh hounds, and bloodcrushers.

Tips on stopping the bloodthirster anyone? I can't even think of an effective way to get him stuck in a tar pit. No frenzy to redirect him (or any khorne
for that matter)... that'd be nice.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 17:03
You are suffering the army book creep.

You just have to deal with it as best as you can, and hope for the best. TK don't have many 'power' units now a days.

Do what I do. Put the TK on a shelf, and get another army.

The only way you stop fast units with TK is hoping your opponent makes mistakes. Maybe nail it with a catapult shot if you are good as judging distances.

Does it fly? If it does, you're screwed. If it doesn't. redirect its charge with angled units, and counter charge it's flanks with ushabti, chariots, bone giants.... tomb scorpions maybe?

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 17:17
It was just a proxy fight and that's really a shame, as I really enjoy everything about TK. I'm asking these questions before making the plunge and potentially wasting a ton of money on a TK army. I don't mind losing, I just want a fair chance.

And yes... the thirster does fly. 2d6+2 str 6 attacks w/ hatred and WS 10. It killed 13 skeletons in one round of cc at one point.

Kissaholic
04-05-2008, 17:37
well you could try the casket of souls roll two 6's and sins its plus 2 that 14!!! so thats an auto matic 4 wounds!!!!!!!!!11!!!1 good luck trying to get that though. but intellectawe is proablly right until we get a new dex all the new army's are going to be better than us so next year we hopefully get something really awsome.

warhawk95
04-05-2008, 17:53
I dont think putting the TK away is the right thing to do, they are able to deal with, just maybe not as effective as other armies. An option is to just stick a big unit of warriors in there and heal them everytime with your mages. Even if that holds him up for 2 turns then you will be able to kill his support units with yours. I would recomend taking a LHP and 2 other priests with a prince in a chariot. Take one big unit of like 30 warriors, 2 scorps, carrions and chariots. Take casket and an SSC with some archers. you should have enough magic to let the key spell of the LHP to bring back some of the warriors, then slam the chariot unit into his side.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 18:26
I dont think putting the TK away is the right thing to do, they are able to deal with, just maybe not as effective as other armies. An option is to just stick a big unit of warriors in there and heal them everytime with your mages. Even if that holds him up for 2 turns then you will be able to kill his support units with yours.

This suffers from two problems.

1) This is a defeatist way of playing. Especially an assault type army. Playing to draw? That isn't a viable tactic, especially since our summoning isn't nearly as potent as VC's.

2) This is playing on what I said earlier. This will only happen if your oppoentn is stupid. I don't remember the last time I made a list thinking part of my tactics would be hoping for luck that my opponent will charge an obvious tar pit unit.



I would recomend taking a LHP and 2 other priests with a prince in a chariot. Take one big unit of like 30 warriors, 2 scorps, carrions and chariots. Take casket and an SSC with some archers. you should have enough magic to let the key spell of the LHP to bring back some of the warriors, then slam the chariot unit into his side.

You do know what you are saying, I'll give you that. But basically, you drew out an army list and tactics on the whim that the opponent is a complete *****.

The key spell to bring back warriors? You mean all D6 if you can get it off?


It seems the only tactic to beat monsters like a Bloodthirster is to hope for the best, and the best being that the guy that is using the Bloodthirster hopefully got drunk before your match, thus impeding his thought process.

I am going to say it, and people won't like to hear it, but some armies are simply out classed by others. TK don't even have any cool nifty special characters to fall on. We got two, and one can't be used unless playing mega games while super gimping the army, and the other one forces you to basically play all ranged... and we all know how powerful str 3 bows are...

Maybe 'Shelf' the TK wasn't a good thing to say. I meant sell it. :angel:

Gazak Blacktoof
04-05-2008, 18:43
I think tomb kings are in need of a bolt thrower to take units like the blood thirster down, at the monent there just isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

You can't killing blow it, tar pit it, force it to charge, reliably hit it with a catapult, blast it with magic or kill it with a character.

EDIT: Heck, you can't even run away!

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 18:50
I think this might be a sad, but true type of situation... people have told me to simply kill it w/ 2 SSC... but even if I was able to get a perfect guess range the scatter alone could ruin that plan. Lets not forget that nifty ward save if I actually hit it... And if he gets the first turn the SSC is dead after 1 rd of shooting. regardless.

Im really dissapointed in this... as I love the TK army and style of play, but I need to have a fair shot at winning to really enjoy the army.

GW really needs to stop gimping everyone w/ these new books.

Shamfrit
04-05-2008, 18:51
Ram a giant into it and pray for some good dice with Unstoppable Onslaught...

It's only got 5 wounds, that's seriously not alot for something so expensive.

Not sure so don't count this, but DOW cannon?

Deathraven
04-05-2008, 18:58
I would gun for the other parts of his army to rack up vp's. If you're lucky enough for him to go near a block of skellies then tar pit him and summon like crazy on that unit. Sure you're at a disadvantage against big flying monsters, but TK have a lot of other things going for them so I wouldn't sell up just yet!

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 18:59
Ram a giant into it and pray for some good dice with Unstoppable Onslaught...

It's only got 5 wounds, that's seriously not alot for something so expensive.

Not sure so don't count this, but DOW cannon?



WS 10 vs. WS 3.... 5+ ward save. I think he's crumble the giant after 1 turn =(

Is there anything else I can hope to do besides pray for luck?

Also, this guy is a flyer... he has the complete advantage in mobility.

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 19:00
I would gun for the other parts of his army to rack up vp's. If you're lucky enough for him to go near a block of skellies then tar pit him and summon like crazy on that unit. Sure you're at a disadvantage against big flying monsters, but TK have a lot of other things going for them so I wouldn't sell up just yet!

I havn't actually bought the TK army yet... I really like them, but still debating if it would be a good army to start with the current environment (awesome new books for other armies).

Shamfrit
04-05-2008, 19:03
To start with? No, I'm not saying give up, but, I'm just starting with Tomb Kings now after almost a year and I'm wracking my brain because you have to know deployment and reform options with TK to really get them working.

Try a Tomb King with Destroyer of Eternities, 2 Automatic S7 hits on him will certainly cause a dent, and try SSC's and a few unit of Archers, you'll get him eventually.

W0lf
04-05-2008, 19:04
5W and a 5+ ward save???

go get good at guessing.. both tk players i know will hit a thirster 80% of the time... And if you miss you do get 4 shots at it.

tbh it is a tough one but some armies fail against others, thats just the way it is. surely you will face other armies???

oh and however says khalida forces you to go all ranged has no idea what ehs on about. She gets a brutually effective curse, a spell you cant dispel and one of the best bound spells going. Oh AND she counts as the armies prince/king. Khalida and 3 LPs with 2 catapults is a devastating set up. oh and s3 bows arnt great... S3 posioned bows that always hit on a 5+ and come on 8 pt undead immune to psy warriors are pretty bloody effective. Try units of 20 with full cimmand. It works.

Shamfrit
04-05-2008, 19:07
5W and a 5+ ward save???

go get good at guessing.. both tk players i know will hit a thirster 80% of the time... And if you miss you do get 4 shots at it.

tbh it is a tough one but some armies fail against others, thats just the way it is. surely you will face other armies???

oh and however says khalida forces you to go all ranged has no idea what ehs on about. She gets a brutually effective curse, a spell you cant dispel and one of the best bound spells going. Oh AND she counts as the armies prince/king. Khalida and 3 LPs with 2 catapults is a devastating set up. oh and s3 bows arnt great... S3 posioned bows that always hit on a 5+ and come on 8 pt undead immune to psy warriors are pretty bloody effective. Try units of 20 with full cimmand. It works.

For once in my life Wolf, I absolutely 100% agree with you!

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 19:36
oh and however says khalida forces you to go all ranged has no idea what ehs on about.

[QUOTE]She gets a brutually effective curse,

Great! She does something great when she dies! Just what I was counting on when I took her.



a spell you cant dispel

Yeah, so plan on keeping her stuck next to a catapult't the whole game.



and one of the best bound spells going

This is one of the few things she got going for her.


. Oh AND she counts as the armies prince/king.

So does a regualt tomb king/prince?


Khalida and 3 LPs with 2 catapults is a devastating set up.

You are right! I love playing TK turtling. Works wonders!


oh and s3 bows arnt great... S3 posioned bows

Yeah, lets fire those 30 shots, so that 6 of them are poisoned. Then armor saved. What is that, like a line of archers?


that always hit on a 5+

Which is what they do normally in tk army.


and come on 8 pt undead immune to psy warriors are pretty bloody effective. Try units of 20 with full cimmand. It works.

And once again, actually, for the third time, people aren't reading my post nor the OP's post. What compete ***** would charge a tar pit block? We assume the bloodthirster player knows what he is doing.

Milney
04-05-2008, 19:49
Well, if you like the models (and were going to collect an infantry/cavalry TK list) you could always "Counts as" a Vampire Counts army until the new TK list arrives.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 19:50
HHAHAHAHHAA

That is just plain awesome!

Eigilb
04-05-2008, 20:01
5W and a 5+ ward save???

go get good at guessing.. both tk players i know will hit a thirster 80% of the time... And if you miss you do get 4 shots at it.



True as can get


I play tk with 1 SSC, this is my monster killer, and it have never let me down. learn to guess, you'll score a hit 33,3% of the times and if you shoot and guess right 2 times a turn, well. You'll have 66,6% chance of hitting, assuming you are good at guessing.

A litte help with guessing, anyway. This is how i do it:

I know there is 24" from my deployment to his, and i know i deploy my Ssc from 8"-12" deep in my own deployment. from game start i know there is 32"-38" to the from of his deployment zone. The rest is guessing - go practice :)-

happy_doctor
04-05-2008, 20:08
I'm getting tired of reading this "throw your TK away" or "pray your opponent fumbles his attacks" stuff...

What I think could work against aforementioned Bloodthirster (speculation, as I haven't faced the new Daemons yet):

-Tomb King on chariot with Flail of Skulls; works even better if combined with the Icon of the Sacred Eye (hitting on 3's)

-Screaming Skull Catapult (as previously stated, a seasoned TK player mnages to pinpoint a 50x50mm based model quite accurately; All it takes is a couple of shots and the big bad wolf will be dead..)

-Tarpit: 25-ish unit of skeletons with war banner. Remember to issue challenges against such powerful foes, thus limiting the amount of wounds you suffer. If you manage to flank him with something as well, you'll be winning combats!!!

Taking him on one-on-one will be difficult, but remember to use your superior magic (And occasional Iconof Rakaph) to outmanoeuver him and get the charges you want off.

GW might have dropped the ball with the new book, but that doesn't mean that you can't face the new threats!

Hope this helps

Happy_doctor

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 20:45
I'm getting tired of reading this "throw your TK away" or "pray your opponent fumbles his attacks" stuff...

I'm tired of the truth also.


-Tomb King on chariot with Flail of Skulls; works even better if combined with the Icon of the Sacred Eye (hitting on 3's)

The Blood thirster also has a movement of 8 itself. Getting a charge off on the Thirster would be a hard thing to do, but it is possible.


-Screaming Skull Catapult (as previously stated, a seasoned TK player mnages to pinpoint a 50x50mm based model quite accurately; All it takes is a couple of shots and the big bad wolf will be dead..)

Our one true giant killer. Oh what a beautiful thing.


-Tarpit: 25-ish unit of skeletons with war banner. Remember to issue challenges against such powerful foes, thus limiting the amount of wounds you suffer. If you manage to flank him with something as well, you'll be winning combats!!!

I don't see a Bloodthirster throwing itself into a 25 strong tar pit undead unit.



GW might have dropped the ball with the new book, but that doesn't mean that you can't face the new threats!

You mean the last 3 books :)

The Bloodthirster doesn't suffer from Frenzy, so it will never get tar pitted, and as the OP already said, he is fully capable of bashing into the front of a unit and tossing it aside, so his opponent knows how to pick his battles.

theunwantedbeing
04-05-2008, 20:54
Throw 70pts of skeleton horsemen at it.
Now move your big fully ranked unit of skeletons into a position where it will overrun into you.(or just put say....some more skeleton horsemen in the way of the thing).

He has hatred so is forced to overrun when he crumbles you to nothing (which he undoubtedly will unless he fumbles his attacks and loses combat anyway) so overruns into the next unit.
And so forth untill you either get to charge im with your tarpit unit, or he charges you.

Challenge and then he can only beat you by 1 at best.
Flank him the following turn and now he is losing by 1.

Eventually he'll go down.
You of course take pot shots at him with your skull catapults as well.

It's tricky but not impossible.

shartmatau
04-05-2008, 20:57
Don't TK have a spell that lets you move a unit? So you keep your units fairly close together, let the Bloodthirster charge then counter charge on the flank. You raise whatever unit got charged, so you at least have a chance of winning with ranks,banners, outnumber, flank charge. So thats a normal way to beat a flying monster.
But TK have catapults that can fire twice a turn and the casket, all of which can demolish big monsters really effectively. and still be useful against the rest of the daemon army. Its not a walk in the park but there are certainly things to use.

W0lf
04-05-2008, 21:02
wow interllect you did a great job there??? :confused::wtf:

The curse comment wasnt a case of 'when she dies shes well god.. let her die LOL' It was an advantage that she has over other options. Unless you think a better curse is a disadvantage??

Keeping her next to a catapult is kinda obvious to me. Why run up the board when you can force the enemy to come to you. Most Tk that i consider powerful rely on a unit of TG to mop up what you need to. TKs cant march and as such get heavily outmanoueverd on a board anyway.

I didnt really explain the prince/king thing. With the bound spell and free casting i consider her much to be a 4th LP. Think of her as a Lp with a wicked bound spell and a spell that you cant dispel and you mite get what i mean. By taking a prince/king (as your forced to) i find you lose a wizard (well a good one..). If for example i didnt need a prince/king id have an extra priest every time.

Tk turteling is the most effective way to play the list from my exp. If you find diffrent then im free to discuss it.

Oh and your right normal TK archers hit on a 5+ so lets discount that as an advantage of archers? Sorry wtf? Oh and mathhammer all you want, Posioned bows do V. Well. Statistics such as 30 shots = 6 wounds is not worth saying other then to insult my intelligence. Another fact is to fire them at things that have low/no armour saves because thats what they excell at. Catapults ignore saves for a reason, use the best tool for the right job?

Oh and i wasnt suggesting tarpitting the blood thirster with archers... I agree tarpitting dosnt work against good opponents. My suggestion to blood thirster was SSC. Not having a perfect tool in every army to sort out every threat is normal for armies.


He has hatred so is forced to overrun when he crumbles you to nothing

Thats pretty nifty as he cant overun. You need to charge to overun ;)

linvus232
04-05-2008, 21:19
Tarpit him. I remember being told once that if a BT charges a big unit of Skeletons it's a guaranteed loss for him. I hope this is all correct, it was a long time ago...

BT charges, for the sake of argument, the front. I declare a challenge with my Skeleton Champion. The BT gets his +5 overkill res, but I have 3 ranks, outnumbering and a standard (which can be a War Banner because I have a Tomb King). Combat is at worst a draw, I win because I have a musician. I also get two cracks at this as next turn I can resurrect the Champion and challenge again.

It's perfectly possible to do, making correct use of the hatred/frenzy/whatever rule that governs the big fella's movement. If necessary get your incantations to work on your big blocks of units- a unit of Tomb Guard with that free reform banner can charge an enemy who started the turn 12" away even when they were facing the wrong direction.

EDIT: But Poisoned Arrows are by far the best way to go. You're averaging lots of wounds before you even start shooting twice.

intellectawe
04-05-2008, 21:47
Yeah, you are right... Lets build an all archer army to deal with a blood thirster so that the rest of the demon army just sits back and watches it die. :)

Fact is, TK is severely 'Balanced', and we all know that balanced books are the weak ones now a days. Damn having a great army book! This game is feeling to me like its creeping right back into Herohammer...

Shamfrit
04-05-2008, 22:39
Ermm. The Blood Thirster can fly, yes, welldone, but our cavalry has a charge range, with an Incantation of 24". I would say it's very easy to get the charge on him, very easy indeed. The only problem then of course is having something that can deal damage to him...so a mounted prince with an Armour Save negating weapon would certainly help, even if it means the unit crumbles, who cares if you've done a wound or two on him?

Dead Man Walking
04-05-2008, 23:01
Your not going to be able to field the army that beats all armies regardless of what you face. Sometimes it comes down to rock paper scissors and you throw out rock when your opponent throws out paper.

There are going to be some armies which you just cant beat and there are going to be some players you just can't beat. Dont throw out an army because you dont have an answer for the blood thirster because frankly your going to have to field a blood thirster to beat a blood thirster.

If you run into a blood thirster you just try your hardest to beat it with what ever tools you have at your disposal and if you can't seem to pull out the win by the end of game you shake your opponents hand and thank him for the game and go on to play someone else. It's just a game and a few losses here or there shouldnt ruin your enjoyment of the game.


It's not about winning, its about enjoying the game. If it was about winning I would be spending my time killing ants with a magnifying glass. :skull:

Makaber
05-05-2008, 00:05
Your not going to be able to field the army that beats all armies regardless of what you face. Sometimes it comes down to rock paper scissors and you throw out rock when your opponent throws out paper.

This is the truth.

So what if you don't have much to throw against Deamons? And bear in mind that the Deamon book is what, a week old, and that we had this exact situation over every single army book I can ever remember. People will figure out the tricks needed to defeat it eventually, and things will settle.

Anyway, back to the original point. So you don't see an immediate Tomb King "paper" to the "rock" that is the Bloodthirster, so what? In my book, Tomb Kings hold their own very well against pretty much everything else. I've found them to be spectacular against High Elves for instance, another hotly voiced concern amongst the Warhammer community. Load up on a couple of dirt cheap chariot units and laugh at their first strike. Another army giving people a lot of grief is Wood Elves with their damn treemen: Giggle with glee as you hit them with a magical, flaming stone thrower.

In any case, people have been dealing with Blood Dragons on Zombie Dragons, and Chaos Lords on Dragons for ages. I doubt this will be that different, push comes to shove.

And some of the posters in this thread are damn counter productive and should be ashamed of how little they actually contribute to the thread.

Sacrifice82
05-05-2008, 00:36
I really appreciate the input guys... both positive and negative.

The issue w/ me and Daemons is that is what my brother is now playing, so that will make up the majority of my games.

Hopefully we can figure out a way to handle the daemons at TK... I fully understand that I can beat the BT with my entire 2250 list, but the rest of the Daemon army is NASTY as well. Those bloodcrushers and even the flesh hounds are amazing in this new book. Also have to fend of the 2 units of harpies that will surely be rushing my SSC's.

Sounds challenging to say the least... but I don't plan to just give up.

Please keep the debate alive, but lets focus on strat to beat the BT and not flame too much.

Thanks everyone.

intellectawe
05-05-2008, 01:11
In any case, people have been dealing with Blood Dragons on Zombie Dragons, and Chaos Lords on Dragons for ages. I doubt this will be that different, push comes to shove.

And some of the posters in this thread are damn counter productive and should be ashamed of how little they actually contribute to the thread.

Ok, you are guilty of teh same thing you accuse.

Give us some examples on how to beat a flying death dealing blood thirster. And not the ones already suggested. Something that actually works please.

shartmatau
05-05-2008, 02:40
So you are saying that stone throwers wouldn't work?

or saying that the casket wouldn't work?

or saying that normal means of countercharging any large monster wouldn't work

Frankly I think that stone throwers would make a mess a bloodthirster real quick. Since they negate all but his ward save and inflict multiple wounds with each hit. And they would work well against all the other daemons as well. Oh yeh and you can shoot with them more than once each turn. You have to guess range well, but you should be able to do this anyway. And shooting in the magic phase allows you to find the correct range for the shooting phase if you can't guess well.

And challenging the great beast is a great idea. It can't refuse and can then only win combat by one with a fully ranked unit. And if the Bloodthirster gets into combat you should have that fully ranked unit close enough to charge it or be overrun into (i rather like that option, great use of the beasts hatred against itself).

Then again you could always try something a little trickier with less chance of success. Like bury a couple tomb scorpions and try to get them to assault its rear. The T6 is the real hard part about bloodthirsters. not that they fly or do lots of damage. I mean undead don't really care about losing guys, you can always raise more. Especially since daemons have very little magic defense without a Lvl4 caster. It needs to lose to combat res (like most monsters).

On a second note, why the negative talk to each other? It just a discussion about whats useful to use. TK will have trouble with big monsters, this isn't really a new topic. We should just be trying to help the OP. And on that I say, don't give up on the Tomb Kings. You might not always win but if you play enough with the army you will find out that movement and placement and some good old fashion dice rolling will win out over one unit anyday.

Alpha_Wolf
05-05-2008, 04:30
Well, since you will be playing him quite a bit (being your brother and all :P) I think you can start counting on him equipping his thirster specifically against you so lets review what this means just in case.

Str7, flaming attacks, re-rolls to hit and probably obsidian armor(3+AS and negates magic weapons) as well. I haven't read through the army book but I'm quite sure that that stuff is all within his item allowance. Not only this but the BT is the cheapest (points wise he he) of the four.

Do you normally use a Tomb King or a High Liche? In this case I would have to recommend going with the liche. Give him the cloak of dunes (pretty standard). I can't believe I am about to suggest this but he will be a pretty convincing target...use that to your advantage. Let him get close enough to keep your bros attention but far enough away to be safe.

Ha ha ha, off topic here but that reminded me of something a teacher of mine said in high school on writing essays. "They should be like a mini-skirt...short enough to keep your interest but long enough to cover the subject."

Anyway, whatever happens, don't let your priest get caught!:eek:


The obvious dual catapults, they can be put into a normal army for minimal cost (comparable to what they can do). Taking two of them isn't even out of the ordinary so you don't have to worry about changing your entire army.

The downside is that your brother will do anything do limit the amount of shots you get on him either by positioning or dispelling, probably both. They will also need protecting from any other fliers/fast movers.

Tomb king/prince with flail of skulls for multi wounds...this will work once if he doesn't take O.Armor already he will.

This will be a difficult match up regardless, the game is going to evolve a lot as you guys play each other more often, especially with sibling rivalry:D.

The catapults and the sweet smell of a heirophant may work if we are lucky but how will it fare in the future I wonder?

As others have said, get good at guessing ranges, both for the catapult and the bt's charge distance if you are going to try and bait him. Make every catapult shot count.

The catapults have been suggested by many and are likely your best option but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are reliable for the task, anything can still happen. They can still scatter/miss-fire on you.

I really hate to sound negative as it doesn't really contribute. Even the catapults go down the drain when faced with a high elf prince in dragon armor/armor of Caledor atop a dragon, stardragons being the toughest. Hhh...herohammer at its dumbest.

Edit: seed a spieling erroar

W0lf
05-05-2008, 08:55
Its deffinatly a uphill struggle for you but it can be done. However if your brother will be your main opponent maybe an army that does better vs daemons would be more fun/approriate.


Give us some examples on how to beat a flying death dealing blood thirster. And not the ones already suggested. Something that actually works please.

All the examples listed do work. However feel free to just moan and continue your 'its hopeless Tks are balance, Daemons are broken BS'. I get the feeling you blame your army book every time you lose... *sigh*

Gralph!?!
05-05-2008, 08:58
i would have thought tomb swarms would be effective as they have alot of wounds and also have alot of attacks with poison. that is one good tarpit unit already, all the while it can allow you to get a good counter attack off against it with a prince or king.

Mouldsta
05-05-2008, 09:44
Also bear in mind that he'll probably be quite low on dispel dice - khornate stuff has lots of magic resistance (so good against spells that directly affect the unit), but not very many actual dispel dice - this means things like your chariots, carrion etc can charge the blood thirster.

Kerill
05-05-2008, 10:01
Lots of tomb scorpions (3) and 20 tomb guard with the icon of rakaph- almost guaranteed to tarpit the thirster if he comes in early, scorpions can slow the rest of his force and if he spends lots of time taking out the scorpions and tomb swarms you will have three or 4 turns to launch SSC doom upon the thirster. You might want to put your tomb prince or king with a SSC initially for the my will be done, but also to see of furies. If you see the BT coming of course, put them back in a proper unit.

Makaber
05-05-2008, 17:17
Ok, you are guilty of teh same thing you accuse.

Give us some examples on how to beat a flying death dealing blood thirster. And not the ones already suggested. Something that actually works please.

I don't deal in theoryhammer. Also, because the book technically isn't released yet, I like to see the rules and point values before I start making wild claims. I like to base my opinions on facts and not heresay on the internet, thank you very much.

Some things I'd bear in mind:

The Bloodthirster has to overrun, so tricking it into an unfavourable position is tricker than before but by no means impossible. It's a character with no unit, so it can't refuse challenges. And the moment you spend 500+ points on a single character, that cuts significantly into your magic phase, so a magic heavy army such as the Tomb Kings should get an upper hand there.

So, take a champion in every unit, so you can challenge if need be. Bacause you have a lot of static CR working for you and your units never break, this gains you at least one, and probably two, rounds to react. First when the Bloodthirster charges, and then in your own round when you can raise the champion and challenge again. This is also the time you use your significant magic phase and, accordingly, movement potential to maneouver something into position. It doesn't take more than a champion in a regiment with a Warbanner to win combat.

The challenge can net the Bloodthirster a maxiumum CR of 6. This is compensated for by ranks (3), outnumber (1), banner (1), and Warbanner (1). The brave skeleton with a trumpet blows his horn, and you win by one.

Raise the champion, and you can pull this off twice.

If you use your magic phase to get a cunning rear charge (Carrion would be good for this; 20" move puts them easily behind the Bloodthirster, and a magical move gets a rear charge), and you win by 2. Or, if it's a unit without Warbanner, 1. Or, if you don't manage a rear charge, then a flank charge also gives you a victory by 1 (as long as you have a musician handy, which you absolutely should, always). If you don't manage a flank charge with a Tomb Kings army, you should go back to playing something simpler (like Daemons, perhaps).

And this isn't isolated scenarios based on extremely task spesific setups, either. This is just stuff anybody can run in their army with great success, Bloodthirster or not.

Kissaholic
05-05-2008, 20:32
Screaming skull catapults ftw.

stonehorse
05-05-2008, 20:49
Having had a quick look through the Tomb Kings book, I think I may have a way of taking out the Blood Thirster.

Tomb King, Flail of Skulls, Collar of Shapesh, Vambraces of the Sun.

Put him in a unit of Tomb Guard with full command and The Icon of The Sacred Eye. Or if you have enough points, have a unit of Skeleton Warriors with full command and the Banner of the Undying Legion, and have an Icon Bear also join the unit with he Icon of The Sacred Eye.

The Tomb King will now have 4 attacks hitting on 3+ at strength 7 and each unsaved wound doing D3 wounds in the first turn of combat.

Due to a Khorne Deamon armies laughable dispell dice pool, you'll be quite able to use your movement spells to great advantage.

It will be a hard fight, as there is a book creep in Warhammer.

Gloryseeker
05-05-2008, 21:06
The challenge can net the Bloodthirster a maxiumum CR of 6. This is compensated for by ranks (3), outnumber (1), banner (1), and Warbanner (1). The brave skeleton with a trumpet blows his horn, and you win by one.

Raise the champion, and you can pull this off twice.


Err... dont deamons have their own verison of crumble? so with the scenario stated after 2 turns it would have lost 2 of its five wounds. :cheese:

Get some flank and it could die but not quickly

Makaber
05-05-2008, 21:07
Tomb King, Flail of Skulls, Collar of Shapesh, Vambraces of the Sun.

I though about something similar, but unfortunately, the Flail of Skulls only double wounds, not D3 them. So you'll still need to hit and wound three times to kill it outright, so counting on the Lord alone to do the trick isn't going to work that well. Also, kitting him out for survival is essencially hopeless, because the Bloodthirster packs a lot of abilities that will seriously cramp his day anyway, such as reroll to hit, reroll to wound, the potential of having a ridicilous amount of attacks, flaming attacks, multiplying wounds, and so on. All in all, there's a very real chance the Tomb King ends up biting the bullet no matter what you kit him out with (on the other hand, there's always the offchance of inflicting a Curse and killing the damn thing that way).

Then again, the Flail of Skulls is an excellent weapon, and would probably work really well in shaving off the last couple of wounds off the Bloodthirster if it was already damaged. I just wouldn't count on the King to do the job alone. Much better to have him around if you need him, and wing it.

And yes indeed Gloryseeker. I could have sworn I mentioned it, but as I write long (and constructive ;)) posts, I guess I just forgot somewhere along the line. Besides, I'm not completely sure on how the new Instability rules work in the first place, but I seem to remember they're the same as Undead crumbling now?

Also, while you're pretty much guaranteed to tie it up for two turns of close combat by challenging with a champion, the Bloodthirster is in no way guaranteed to wipe out the regiment on the third go (the Bloodthirster players second turn after charging), in which case you can re-raise the regiment, getting the champion back, and potentially keep it locked there for a long, long while.

Generally speaking I think people are fretting too much over the Daemons. With instability, remember that it'll be much like playing an Undead army with nothing but elite troops, but without the ability to raise them. That will be a huge, huge weakness, and due to their fearlessness and unbreakability, I actually think the various Undead armies will be some of the best choices to face it with.

Gaftra
05-05-2008, 21:13
the other thing you have to consider how utterly you dominate the rest of his army throughout the magic phase. the thirster is a VERY expensive army component. taking a lord with no casting ability will limit his magic ability leaving the power dice heavy TK to roll a great deal of the other troops.

just something else to consider.

Coenono
05-05-2008, 22:31
I havent played tk but was going to till i got a good deal on a O&G army. And I havent seen the new chaos book yet, but Im a little confused about the talk on archers. Now im no math hammer expert here,but I would guess the BT is a large target ,thus wouldnt all the arches be able to shoot at it? Guessing a unit of thirty will get you what 9-10 hits on a 5+. Even if you can get the thing down to half strength dont you get half VP? It will take him most of the game to kill his pts back in VP. A couple rounds of archers and a couple shots from a SCC Should get him close to half.

Also Id maybe try play hide the general so he cant get that extra exp. Putting the tomb prince in a chariot and running with a couple other chariots he should be able to do some damage to the rest of his army. Deamon units are going to be small so i think this unit should be able to make a big dent in his forces. Id assume no one would want to put a BT in the middle of the board so id just go up the opposit flank into his other units.

Also what other choice does he have but to charge big units if thats all you have? What else is he going to do after he takes out the SCC if thats target number one?

Its already been said but his magic d isnt going to be great.. yeah he has magic resistance but most of the spells that are going to be most useful to you wont be cast at him.

Dead Man Walking
05-05-2008, 22:39
A lot of people are forgetting that TK's dont cast a lot of spells on thier opponents, they cast them on themselves. Magic resist wont help you if your opponent is making a unit of spearmen, Ushabti and swarm all charge into the blood thirster in the magic phase.

TK421
05-05-2008, 22:47
A lot of people are forgetting that TK's dont cast a lot of spells on thier opponents, they cast them on themselves. Magic resist wont help you if your opponent is making a unit of spearmen, Ushabti and swarm all charge into the blood thirster in the magic phase.

Mmhmm, Magic Resistance won't protect you from a Catapult shooting twice a turn.

Milney
05-05-2008, 22:55
Also, just had a thought about protecting your LHP (and casket if you use them). Whilst other units can survive a direct BT attack through the nifty challenge/raise trick, but casket/lone priests are vulnerable.

I'm not sure of the rules for deploying the Casket, but if you had a handy piece of difficult terrain (like a wood) in your deployment zone you could place the Casket within 2" of the edge.

This would mean you could still use the Light of Death attack (as you're within 2" of the edge), but the BT couldn't flying charge you (as Flyers cannot enter woods). He'd have to land in front of you first, then charge in on foot - giving you ample time to magically charge him.

Just a thought - may be blown out of the water if there are any special deployment rules for the casket though.

Clegane
05-05-2008, 23:06
Also, just had a thought about protecting your LHP (and casket if you use them). Whilst other units can survive a direct BT attack through the nifty challenge/raise trick, but casket/lone priests are vulnerable.

I'm not sure of the rules for deploying the Casket, but if you had a handy piece of difficult terrain (like a wood) in your deployment zone you could place the Casket within 2" of the edge.

This would mean you could still use the Light of Death attack (as you're within 2" of the edge), but the BT couldn't flying charge you (as Flyers cannot enter woods). He'd have to land in front of you first, then charge in on foot - giving you ample time to magically charge him.

Just a thought - may be blown out of the water if there are any special deployment rules for the casket though.


I have serious doubts about trying to deploy the Casket against a Khorne-based army. Half of the Casket's value is tied up in the -1 to enemy casting rolls that it provides. When your enemy isn't relying on magic whatsoever, as is the case with msot Khorne armies, you lose that utility.

Furthermore, remember that if any unit with MR can see the Casket, any one of those units can throw its MR dice into the Dispel pool against the Casket's Light of Souls. Given that a Khorne type list is already rife with Dispel dice, throwing an extra MR die or two against that Casket is going to severely limit its usefulness. And at 165 points, that an awfully expensive paperweight you're sitting on there.

Milney
05-05-2008, 23:31
I have serious doubts about trying to deploy the Casket against a Khorne-based army. Half of the Casket's value is tied up in the -1 to enemy casting rolls that it provides. When your enemy isn't relying on magic whatsoever, as is the case with msot Khorne armies, you lose that utility.

Furthermore, remember that if any unit with MR can see the Casket, any one of those units can throw its MR dice into the Dispel pool against the Casket's Light of Souls. Given that a Khorne type list is already rife with Dispel dice, throwing an extra MR die or two against that Casket is going to severely limit its usefulness. And at 165 points, that an awfully expensive paperweight you're sitting on there.

I realise that. However if I remember correctly the OP has posted a glut of threads about the TKs vs Daemons and the catalyst for the threads was a BT making a flying charge over his units into the Casket.

Was just throwing some ideas around for if he continued with the same list.

Clegane
05-05-2008, 23:34
I realise that. However if I remember correctly the OP has posted a glut of threads about the TKs vs Daemons and the catalyst for the threads was a BT making a flying charge over his units into the Casket.

Was just throwing some ideas around for if he continued with the same list.


No worries. My commentary was directed at the OP, really, rather than you. I just used your post in the quote to provide a frame of reference for my own, rather than typing it out. Just being lazy. :)

Mouldsta
05-05-2008, 23:48
Given that a Khorne type list is already rife with Dispel dice


It won't be though - a pure khornate daemon list has the two basic dispel dice. The khornate daemons have MR rather than generating dispel dice (but I would agree that the casket probably isn't the best idea)

Makaber
05-05-2008, 23:59
Okay, about the Casket. First of all, I believe characters with the Mark of Khorne still generate dispel dice like they used to, but regiments get Magic Resistance instead. This is bad news for the Casket in two ways. First of all, there are still probably about 4 or 5 dispel dice in circulation on the Khorne players side. Secondly, when trying to dispel the Casket effect, you use the highet MR of the units affected (if any). Without having read the new Daemon book myself, I can guess this MR is a guaranteed 1, and quite possibly more, meaning it takes very little effort from the common pool to shut down the effect. Couple this with the redundancy of the minus to cast effect, and you're left with very little real value.

That said, emphasis now is on how the chaos gods are a pantheon, and not four factions at war with each other. My guess is we will see a lot more mixed god lists than previously, because the list is designed as such.

Kissaholic
06-05-2008, 00:13
oh and we cant all forget about the LP magic missles of doom I mean D6 str 4 hits is badass.;)

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2008, 00:24
Yes totally badass in the way it harmlessly bounces off the bloodthirster.

Kamenwati
06-05-2008, 00:28
I have seen the new Demon book (a friend bought the spearhead) and the Instability works pretty much like it used to (i.e. negative combat res to leadership test, take wounds equal to what you missed the test by) minus the instant pop if you roll over your base leadership.

And the ward save is against everything now. Except Instabilty.

And pantheon of Chaos? What fluff are you reading cause pretty much everything I have read says the Chaos Gods are bickering, backstabbing, powergrabbing lot, who work together only when absolutely necessary.

Makaber
06-05-2008, 00:32
Yes totally badass in the way it harmlessly bounces off the bloodthirster.

I had a bit of trouble replying without sounding condensending, but I see theunwantedbeing saved me the trouble by being his usual charming self. I don't like his style, so I'll try to be a bit more pleasant and constructive.

It's a farily standard magic missile. It's an important point that people often forget about it and cast Smiting on something that will statistically do less damage, though. However, when it comes to the Bloodthirster, there are a couple of problems. First of all, it will be hard to cast it on it, because its limited by a fairly short range of only 18", which is shorter than the 'Thirsters charge of 20", and since it really needs to be in combat to do its stuff, it's not going to loiter around for long.

Secondly, all Khorne units will have Magic Resistance, meaning the magic missile will be very easy to dispell.

Finally, even though it will probably wound a couple of times, chances are these wounds will be negated by it's (rumored) significant armour save, and the following ward save.

So in this case, you're better off with smiting, really. :)


And pantheon of Chaos? What fluff are you reading cause pretty much everything I have read says the Chaos Gods are bickering, backstabbing, powergrabbing lot, who work together only when absolutely necessary.

I am reading the design notes on the new book, written by Jervis Johnson (whom I hold as a greater authority on Warhammer fluff than, say, you). And they are, per definition, a pantheon. Of Chaos. They are scheming and manipulative, sure, but they do ultimately work for a common cause (the downfall of civilization). Read up some mythology, I think you will find pretty much all pantheons to consist of scheming, manipulative powermongers, from the Egyptian, to the Greek, to the Norse.

Esco Thomson
06-05-2008, 01:47
Fact is that Tomb Kings have always had an inherent weakness in dealing with "large monster" types. We have a few options to combat them, none of them necessarily being "optimal" for the task at hand. Regardless, that is what we have to use, so use it the best you can.

Screaming Skull Catapults are just fantastic, barring Dragon Armor or any other similar facsimile, they simply are the best option against these types of things. Get good with your guesses, and make sure to utilize your incantations to get off multiple shots.

Skeleton Archers are not good, nor bad, they fall into line with most of the army. They are reliable...common sense tells you that if you shoot enough arrows at a target, it will eventually fail an armor save.

Destroyer of Eternities, Flail of Skulls, they are both decent options. Flail of Skulls will occasionally steal the show here, but reliably the Destroyer of Eternities is the better option, as with incantations you can tack on four wounds a turn. The Flail of Skulls is most likely going to need to be coupled with the Icon of the Sacred Eye in order to reliably score hits.

Seperate they may not come across as "great" options, but as with most things in the Tomb Kings army, they require a team effort to accomplish the goal. A defensive setup with Screaming Skull Catapults and Archer blocks is a tried and true method. Khalida augments just about every part of the strategy, though I personally don't find her to be essential.

You can bog down some monsters with big blocks and a champion. If you deploy correctly, you don't leave your opponent many options, other than to engage one of your blocks. Agreed that this doesn't eliminate the problem, but it can provide some damage control, and occasionally allow the time for you to hit it with something that can eliminate it.

It really does suck that we really struggle versus these things, as I do enjoy playing Tomb Kings. I don't view it nearly as bleak of a situation as some do, but an "uphill" battle certainly seems fitting.

AMP187
06-05-2008, 02:07
Yo, I'm the brother of the OP.

You TK players make me feel bad about myself. :cries:

WageMage
06-05-2008, 09:31
The actual problem is that you only have 1 turn to kill the BT.
He will deploy behind scenery so no turn 1 catapults and stuff.
Next turn he will fly to a nice charging spot(catapults ;)) while screened against any bad charges like chariots by furies and expendable hounds.
You now have 1 chance to kill him, after that turn he will constantly be in combat, safe from shooting.

And I wouldn't rely on him having only 2DD. Nothing prevents a Khorne army having Tzeench + horror wizards.

Milney
06-05-2008, 13:40
Having just... acquired a copy of the Tomb Kings book and had a quick flick through, a few tactics for trapping the BT have jumped out.

Bare in mind that I am far from a TK expert.

But, surely some cunning combination of nifty magic banners (albiet some may require the use of an Icon Bearer and I can see that they aren't exactly the most useful of TK characters).

Banner of the Hidden dead, with a couple of swarms of Tomb Swarms or a Unit of Heavy Horsemen (obligatory champion to absorb wounds) hidden in it.

Reveal the cheap throw-away unit anywhere within 18" of the banner, and you're still allowed to declare a charge (with the Horsemen that's another 16").

Potentially a 34" charge. In hindsight - perhaps Light Horsemen would be better suited. For 98pts you could get 5 with a Champion (to absorb attacks) and a Banner. Pop-up to the side of the Thirster, declare a charge. Challenge.

BT gets 6 CR (1 wound; 5 Overkill). Horsemen get 3 (Outnumber; Flank; Banner). Leaving the dejected banner bearer alive for the next round of combat.

Daemons player turn - he finishes off the last Horsemen but can't overrun. Stuck waiting for the charge from something suitable (King with Flail-o-Death?) Advantage of that combo is that it works with against more than the BT; just before your Chariots hit the front of some ranked up regiment *pop* flank charge to deny them valuable static CR.

Or perhaps the Banner-o-Free-reform. BT floats over your lines thinking himself safe. Next turn a unit of TK/Skeleton warriors spins round and is still able to declare a charge, using the challenge to pin him in place for a turn until Chariots can redeploy to nail it.

Flicking through the TK book it seems they're a really quite interesting list. Shame it seems that common consensus is they suck now :(

WageMage
06-05-2008, 14:05
Banner of the Hidden dead, with a couple of swarms of Tomb Swarms or a Unit of Heavy Horsemen (obligatory champion to absorb wounds) hidden in it.

Reveal the cheap throw-away unit anywhere within 18" of the banner, and you're still allowed to declare a charge (with the Horsemen that's another 16").
I believe the unit appears during the 'remaining moves', so without magic no charge.
Not a bad idea otherwise, but ultimately costs too much points and is highly unreliable for an army that thrives on being reliable.
(Not to mention the Icon bearer weakens your magic phase).

Milney
06-05-2008, 14:08
I believe the unit appears during the 'remaining moves', so without magic no charge.
Not a bad idea otherwise, but ultimately costs too much points and is highly unreliable for an army that thrives on being reliable.
(Not to mention the Icon bearer weakens your magic phase).

Ah, good catch.

I overlooked the phase when it was activated and just read the "It may move normally on the turn it appears".

Must of crossed wires with the Icon of Rakaph which is carried out before charges are declared.

Apologies.

Shamfrit
06-05-2008, 14:15
Milney you hit it on the spot, the Banner of Rakaph is a divine, if not broken item that can take opponents by surprise and win you games in one fell swoop.

Tomb Kings do not 'suck,' they simply take a greater degree of skill and hindsight to wield effectively, they're not a plug in and play army like say, Daemons or Empire.

AMP187
06-05-2008, 16:03
if it makes yall feel better, my main army is skaven. so most of the OP's games will not involve the giant scary bloodthirster.

Sacrifice82
06-05-2008, 18:18
if it makes yall feel better, my main army is skaven. so most of the OP's games will not involve the giant scary bloodthirster.

You go die.

W0lf
06-05-2008, 20:27
Vs skaven take 2 SSC with skulls of the foe and watch his army dissapear by turn 2. Its so funny.

More then makes up for the games vs the BT

Alpha_Wolf
06-05-2008, 20:35
Remember to watch out for their tunnelers.

Also, charge warp lightning cannons regardless of range to make them flee...evil tactic but hey. :p

See also:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=2304

Clegane
06-05-2008, 20:38
Remember to watch out for their tunnelers.

Also, charge warp lightning cannons regardless of range to make them flee...evil tactic but hey. :p

See also:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=2304

Sorry, the cheese-charge from across the board against the Warp Lightning Cannon isn't a legal option. The official GW FAQ is veryy clear that you cannot legally declare a charge that you -know- is going to fail.

3lwap0
06-05-2008, 20:38
Remember to watch out for their tunnelers.

Also, charge warp lightning cannons regardless of range to make them flee...evil tactic but hey. :p

See also:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=2304

You can't charge something you have no reasonable range of reaching. That's cheating good sir.

Edit: Clegane by a nose.

Alpha_Wolf
06-05-2008, 20:56
durr it looks leik 8 inches ter me george :wtf:

He he, I wouldn't use it to be honest :angel: but if he wants to get dirty with a skryre list then I'll admit it'd become a little more tempting.

No, don't listen to me. That topic on skaven is pretty good (except when they de-railed it) though so read it through when convenient.

Trogdor
06-05-2008, 21:07
What about Ushabti? Could always try and pin the 'Thirster in place with a block of them and then flank it with one or two 25-30 strong blocks of skellies, with magic standards.

Clegane
06-05-2008, 21:44
What about Ushabti? Could always try and pin the 'Thirster in place with a block of them and then flank it with one or two 25-30 strong blocks of skellies, with magic standards.

I think you've gotten yourself all turned around. Ushabti aren't anywhere near hardy enough to be an anvil. They are flankers through and through. What you want to do is pin the bugger in place with a 25-man skelly block, lock him up with champion challenges to diminish his CR potential, and THEN flank the hell out of him with the Ushabti who, on a charge, will be delivering 9 (assuming you're three) S6 attacks at WS4.

Further, bear in mind that you can only put magic standards on a skeleton warrior block if you're playing a Tomb King army. If you're being led by a LHP, it isn't a valid option.

Sacrifice82
06-05-2008, 22:43
We also can't forget about the other 1800pts of Daemons that are coming to chew my face off.... (well, what's left of it.. I am undead afterall)

He already has more units than I do at 2250, so I can't leave myself open to crazy counter charges by focusing 4 units on the thirster.

Makaber
06-05-2008, 22:54
Well on the positive side, the other Deamon units are a lot easier to hurt, and thus gain CR from killing. Anyway, it gets sorta silly to do theoretical experiments like this if you start taking into account entire armies. Best to keep it simple: Is there some way a Tomb Kings army can handle a Bloodthirster? And the short answer is, yes there is.

sturguard
06-05-2008, 22:55
Granted, I am not much of a Fantasy player (but I am starting), so I don't know a heck of alot about Tomb Kings, but I do know much about liking certain armies and building them because I like the models. I seem to remember that your main opponent that plays demons is your brother or best friend, if the Thirster is giving you so much trouble, would it be too much to ask him not to use it? It sounds like you play to have some fun games, so why not ask him to use some different units. This will give you time to really learn more strategies with the Tomb Kings, play an army you like, get some decent games in, and eventually maybe put you in a position to beat him with the Thirster. I am a model man first when it comes to GW and have been known to use armies in very competitive situations where I had little chance (but I like the models!). Anyways, that's my two cents, when I play with friends we really look forward to a fun game than winning and losing... now, when I go to a tournament, that's a different story and certainly off thread.

Sacrifice82
07-05-2008, 00:54
Well on the positive side, the other Deamon units are a lot easier to hurt, and thus gain CR from killing. Anyway, it gets sorta silly to do theoretical experiments like this if you start taking into account entire armies. Best to keep it simple: Is there some way a Tomb Kings army can handle a Bloodthirster? And the short answer is, yes there is.


Very true... Thanks to you and everyone else for all the ideas. This site is really an awesome resource. Now if I could just get my bro to stop spying on advice I'm supposed to use against him! lol

najo
07-05-2008, 08:11
Your not going to be able to field the army that beats all armies regardless of what you face. Sometimes it comes down to rock paper scissors and you throw out rock when your opponent throws out paper.

There are going to be some armies which you just cant beat and there are going to be some players you just can't beat. Dont throw out an army because you dont have an answer for the blood thirster because frankly your going to have to field a blood thirster to beat a blood thirster.

If you run into a blood thirster you just try your hardest to beat it with what ever tools you have at your disposal and if you can't seem to pull out the win by the end of game you shake your opponents hand and thank him for the game and go on to play someone else. It's just a game and a few losses here or there shouldnt ruin your enjoyment of the game.


It's not about winning, its about enjoying the game. If it was about winning I would be spending my time killing ants with a magnifying glass. :skull:

Any army that is well played can beat any other army. Some have tougher match ups, but the game is dictated by deployment, movement and controlling odds and combat result. There are not hopeless games unless you wrote up a terrible army, deployed poorly and then were matched bad, played terrible and rolled bad. Warhammer is a game of skill and generalship. Like historical battles, you can have uneven matches and win if you know what you are doing.

We run 40 man campaigns with kingdoms and territories and all of the armies are uneven. The territories and your kingdoms resources determine what you can bring to a battle and the political actions you can play. In those campaign games I have seen good players with small kingdoms take armies twice their size in points and win with good generalship.

najo
07-05-2008, 08:24
I am an avid Tomb King player. They are the third most versitile army in the game, following Empire (1st) and Orcs & Goblins (2nd). Tomb Kings are a delicate army that synrgize well and are very hard to learn to play well with a stiff learning curve. Once you get them down they are very powerful (even more so than Vampires, though the new book did redistribute Vampire power and balance and made them more relliable). Tomb Kings are still a more adaptable army than the vampires.

Tomb Kings have plenty of ways to deal with the Blood Thirster.

basically you can do the following:

1. Pepper the BT to death with massive amounts of archery. Take a 30 man archer unit and have it fire in the magic phase. With the Queen Kalhida and her power to make a unit shoot (without being countered) and posion this is even better.

2. Take two skull catapults and a casket of souls. keep one liche priest with the casket near one of the catapults and the other near a archer unit and the other catapult. Make reshooting happen as much as possible as needed. That is 4 skull catapult shots a turn.

3. Take the Bone Giant and/or Tomb Scorpions. Then take horsemen with spears, or the chariots with a lord and destroyer of eternities or ustabi. Any combination of these units as a primary and flanking charge will kill the bloodthirster in the first or second round of combat.

4. Use carrion or cavalry to trap the thirster with your movement spells. This is easy to do when your carrion ove 40 in one turn! Making this charge and the bloodthirster having hatred and having to overrun means you can force the thirster to move where you want him to.

5. Take a huge unit of skeletons with a warbanner, and full command. get them into combat with the Bloodthirst and then flank with one of the units in option 3. Again, auto kill nearly.

A good tomb king player knows how to use their magic and get the most out of their movement. They also learn to combine their units effectively and win any combat. The key to winning with tom kings is getting your opponent to underestimate your deployment and moves, and then get caught off gaurd with your charges and magic.

najo
07-05-2008, 08:29
I had a game against Vampires (last edition) with a mounted vampire lord, a unit of black knights and a unit of grave guard. There were more units on the vampire's side but this was the key fight. My spearmen, bone giant, carrion, horsemen with spears and high priest came in three waves into the fight. Using my magic I kept the spearmen alive over the first turn, then brought the bone giant back from 1 wound and then moved the cavalry into the flank and the carrion into the other flank. With magic I kept the pressure on, kept healing and then pushed the odds back against the black knights. I destroyed the knights and then quickly the vampire lord and the grave gaurd. Then won then game.

The Vampire Lord back then was more powerful then the blood thrister now. The vampire was a fully tooled up blood dragon too, btw. The SOB ate blood thirsters for snacks.

A tomb king army can kill a bloodthrister.

SteelTitan
07-05-2008, 08:42
You could also take that special female character which makes all the arrows poisoned and try to shoot down his ass :) Or at least cause a couple of wounds in the first or if you are lucky the second turn. That spell which makes you shoot in the magic phase might work wonders here ;)

Neknoh
07-05-2008, 09:23
What must be remembered is the Large Target status of the Thirster (it's still a Large Target... right?) which allows full blocks of archers to shoot at him. Three blocks of 20 archers and then Khalida in the army will dish out 120 shots a turn. 40 of those will hit the thirster. 20 of those hits will wound the thirster. Even with a 4+ save, he'll be taking 10 wounds.

And that's one turn of shooting.

The blocks can also later be used in close combat to tarpit the enemy units since 20 skellies are reasonably sized to soak wounds, sure, they might crumble, but not quickly enough for your opponent to get the hell out of the combats. This is where you send in flanking forces of 2x Chariot units and 2x Ushabti units. Furthermore, for your Rare Choices, you can either go for a SSC, however (I have not had a look at the new book yet), should the Daemons have low Ld, go for the Casket. Although, I do believe two Bone Giants would make for a very nice team against an army that crumbles.

This would give you basically:


Khalida
3 Liche Priests

3 blocks of 20 Skellie archers (you can make those 4 blocks as well if you want to)

2 units of 3 or 4 Chariots
2 units of 3 or 4 Ushabti

2 SSC's OR 2 Bone Giants (I'd go with the bone-giants, daemons want to close in, let them get close to these suckers)

Would that not work?

W0lf
07-05-2008, 16:53
Erm i take it you didnt do the pts total?

Oh and posioned arrows (khalida army) are made for things like the BT (who btw will likely have a 3+ save and a 5+ ward)

Gerrok
07-05-2008, 17:50
That's like a 2500 point army right?

60 skeletons is around 600 ponts I think, plus another 120ish for poison arrows
2 bone giants is somewhere over 400
6 ushabti is around 350
6 chariots is just under 300
3 liche priests is...I dunno, but somewhere over 300 I think
Khalida is like 400 I think.

I'm not exactly sure to be honest, but I do know that's a bunch of points.

Not to mention that they only have bows, so all 60 warriors would have to be in range, and your opponent would have to fly his bloodthrister right into the middle of your army. That's a tall order, even for overconfident daemon players.

Esco Thomson
07-05-2008, 18:09
Characters unequipped, I think that leaves you at 2535, I believe.

Jack of Blades
07-05-2008, 18:46
But uh... even if that list was like 2250 points, and you by some kind of odd scenario manage to bring the BT down even though he has a 5+ WS/maybe a 3+ AS, how are you going to deal with the rest of the army? And you have to use a special character too.

I've got one simple suggestion: wait for your new book.

Neknoh
07-05-2008, 19:39
Suggesting a list off the top of my head for a book a friend of mine owns is not the easiest thing in the world, I appologise for being approx. 400 points above the points mark when it is easy to drop the Ushabti or the Chariots allong with a BG to drop said points from the list.

Furthermore, "having to use a special character" is not a negative thing if a character confers something to the army rather than detracting something from the overall game. Khalida in an agressive army with an archery base appears very fluffy to me and she IS printed in an armybook, meaning that there is no such thing as "opponents consent" to use her, at least no more such consent than accepting your opponent uses a bloodthirster that is able to slaughter entire units in one go.

Furthermore, the "what are you to do with the rest of the army" is rather obvious, you shoot them, tarpit them and flank them as well as get the jump on them or similar. In essence, the same thing you would do to any other army. The only reason why I spent so many points on the other units was to take on the rest of the army once said rest gets stuck in or before they get the jump on you. There are more models on the table than the Bloodthirster, despite there being one round of shooting required to take it down.

Still, as for taking down the thirster, 20 statistical poisonous wounds gives 7 wounds after 3+ armoursaves. This should give 2 successful wards on average as well, with a 1 in 3 chance of there being 3 successful wards.

So, 2/3rds of the time, the thirster will go down from one round of shots despite having a 3+ armour and a 5+ wardsave.

TK421
07-05-2008, 19:40
I've got one simple suggestion: wait for your new book.

Very helpful :eyebrows:

L192837465
07-05-2008, 20:19
Suggesting a list off the top of my head for a book a friend of mine owns is not the easiest thing in the world, I appologise for being approx. 400 points above the points mark when it is easy to drop the Ushabti or the Chariots allong with a BG to drop said points from the list.

Furthermore, "having to use a special character" is not a negative thing if a character confers something to the army rather than detracting something from the overall game. Khalida in an agressive army with an archery base appears very fluffy to me and she IS printed in an armybook, meaning that there is no such thing as "opponents consent" to use her, at least no more such consent than accepting your opponent uses a bloodthirster that is able to slaughter entire units in one go.

Furthermore, the "what are you to do with the rest of the army" is rather obvious, you shoot them, tarpit them and flank them as well as get the jump on them or similar. In essence, the same thing you would do to any other army. The only reason why I spent so many points on the other units was to take on the rest of the army once said rest gets stuck in or before they get the jump on you. There are more models on the table than the Bloodthirster, despite there being one round of shooting required to take it down.

Still, as for taking down the thirster, 20 statistical poisonous wounds gives 7 wounds after 3+ armoursaves. This should give 2 successful wards on average as well, with a 1 in 3 chance of there being 3 successful wards.

So, 2/3rds of the time, the thirster will go down from one round of shots despite having a 3+ armour and a 5+ wardsave.

you seem to be failing to remember 45 degree line of sight, and the thirster has these small things called wings. a good deamon player will leave you no option but to be flank charged by it or a deamon unit. you can't "tarpit" the BT, as he can just go over your own units into the flank of any other unit in sight, and the deamons will tear you to pieces with only one block of ushabti and 4 chariots. please.

3 x 20 blocks of archers = FAIL on the TK players part. absolute fail. those bows won't do crap to a deamon player who has an average of 3 flying units (GD, furies, and screamers) and blocks with enough killiness to handle some meaker bowmen in combat. even with the ushabti on the flank, thier prowess goes to waste as as are not negated (wards for the win).

the bone giant wouldn't last a single charge from any hero choice in a deamon army, and you lack the ability to flee.


next?

Kissaholic
07-05-2008, 20:21
That's like a 2500 point army right?

60 skeletons is around 600 ponts I think, plus another 120ish for poison arrows
2 bone giants is somewhere over 400
6 ushabti is around 350
6 chariots is just under 300
3 liche priests is...I dunno, but somewhere over 300 I think
Khalida is like 400 I think.

I'm not exactly sure to be honest, but I do know that's a bunch of points.

Not to mention that they only have bows, so all 60 warriors would have to be in range, and your opponent would have to fly his bloodthrister right into the middle of your army. That's a tall order, even for overconfident daemon players.
skeletons are 8 and poison is 2 pts each models so for 60 archer with poison it will be 600 points

Jack of Blades
07-05-2008, 20:46
Very helpful :eyebrows:

Yeah I'm sorry, but the TK don't really have a reliable and efficient way of dealing with BTs. I think we can all just face it :/
I'd say SSCs are your best bet, though.

Ozorik
07-05-2008, 21:06
next?

Ok so someone posted a suggestion, which by his own admission had flaws, so you thought that you would flex some internet muscle and act like a child. Well done; I feel humbled by your superior intellect. Possibly pointing out the flaws in his suggestion in a more mature manner may have gotten better results? It would certainly have annoyed me less.


at least no more such consent than accepting your opponent uses a bloodthirster that is able to slaughter entire units in one go.

Bearing in mind that the Bloodthirster is essentially a special character (unless the fluff has changed significantly).

Neknoh
07-05-2008, 21:07
A 45 degree LoS angle to a Large Target on a unit which is not the LEAST bit hindered by turning and shooting due to their rules. Furthermore, in order to successfully charge with a unit of Furies, you need to get within 20" of the opponent, meaning he can charge you with chariots. This would also place the chariots very fairly when looking upon the possible positions of the enemy army.

Furthermore, 5+ wardsaves doesn't save all too much. I have played with daemons for quite some time as part of my mortal list. And, with the Daemonbook in my hands, I can safely say that your statement that a Bone Giant will perish to any and all of the Hero choices is quite mistaken. Furthermore, a Bone Giant is NOT what you use against other heroes, it's what you use against T3 enemy units, which is what Bloodletters just happen to be

Coenono
07-05-2008, 21:07
I dont think a 20 strong unit even if they are undead archers has to much to worry about form furries or screamers. And there not there to beat the GD in hth I think if they cause a wound or two on it in shooting they have done there job. Also if the GD is going to get a 2nd round charge it has left alot of support behind.


The chariots/heavy calv can take care of the rest of the army. Heavy horsemen against horrors and Chariots will rip anything.. may have some problems with nurgle deamons.

Do what you can to limit terrain features. You should be pretty close in number of units. You should have more models.. once it becomes a war of attrition you will win.

Alpha_Wolf
07-05-2008, 21:18
I'd say SSCs are your best bet, though.

Yeah, in the end that is what it boils down to. For all their infamy, one shot can still bring a BT down from full.

My advice is to adopt a defensive strategy. Even if you use a relatively aggressive army, just stock up on two skullchuckers, sit back and pull the trigger. Make him come to you. Be sure to provide protection to those catapults from enemy fliers. If you play your cards right the blood thirster will have to expose itself before entering combat, have a dispell scroll ready in case he tries something sneaky like Unseen Lurker.

Also, don't resort to using special characters, you are better than that. ;)