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View Full Version : Is Konrad a wizard?



Jerrus
04-05-2008, 17:06
His entry in the VC book doesn't say that he is, but the Vampire rule says that Vampire Characters are. IoN says that all Vampire Characters know IoN.

So is it simply an oversight or is Konrad von Carstein a wizard?

SuperBeast
04-05-2008, 17:16
He's not a wizard.

Milney
04-05-2008, 17:18
No, he's not.

Its stated fairly thoroughly in the book that he has no necromantic ability.

For starters, nowhere in the book does it say he's a Wizard - would kind of give it away that he's not a Wizard.

Second, p.62;

"Though he lacks magic, Konrad's vicious temperament makes him an almost unmatched Hero-level fighter"

Third, the Vampire rule doesn't imbue the Wizard abilities - the characters do. The Vampire rule merely imbues the ability to march (and allow other units to march).

Finally, the only reason people even try and argue he could be a caster is the line (p.35);

"Vampire characters are wizards"

However, if you really wanted to be a pedant and use that 'logic' it's easily countered - Konrad isn't a "Vampire Character" he's a "Special Character" that just happens to be a Vampire.

It's fairly straight forward though and the question shouldn't arise - not only is Magic not mentioned on his bestiary page (p.62) like it is for all the other Vampire characters, but it is also not in the army list (p.90) unlike all other Vampire characters.

Logic > Wild Assumptions...

Edit: Before someone tries to play 'Devil's Advocate' (or just be a pedant) and argues that there is no distinction "Special" and "Standard" characters; p.79 of the BRB.

Reinnon
04-05-2008, 17:45
Plus, the army list doesn't include his magic level, ergo he doesn't have one

IronBrother
04-05-2008, 18:28
The UK website also states that he is not a wizard on the Konrad Tactica. In games, until this is errata'd I just talk it over with my opponent. I have no issue whether or not he is a wizard, I just stick a unit within 12" of him and wait for him to frenzy out of his unit, run away and then kill him.

Reinnon
04-05-2008, 18:58
there is no need for this to be FAQed, it says that he isn't a wizard in the book, note the vampire rules states that "vampires" are level one wizards and "vampire lords" are level two - konrad by RaW is neither - he has the vampire rule yes - but he is not a hero level basic "vampire", he is his own option.

the army list states quite clearly that he doesn't have a magic level, it does state for each and every vampire character in the book. If he doesn't have a magic level how can he cast spells?

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 16:02
Not having a magic lvl isn't the same as not being a Wizard.

He is a Vampire and he is a Character, so I guess he is a Vampire Character. Which means he is a Wizard.

Invocation of Nehek states that all Vampire Characters know the Invocation of Nehek spell.

What I'm suggesting is that he can be considered a "lvl 0 Wizard" that doesn't generate any power/dispel dice, but can cast the single spell he knows (IoN) with 1 power dice (lvl 0+1). I realise that his description states that he "lacks magic", but the rules for Vampires and IoN should override that, shouldn't they? "Rules as Written" vs. "Rules as Intended", and all that jazz?

Lord Aries
05-05-2008, 16:06
Wow Jerrus, you are a wish based rules lawyer. You really have to read into the rules to get what you just said.


THE OFFICIAL GW FAQ, not to mention the Direwolf FAQ says he is NOT a wizard.

Milney
05-05-2008, 16:09
Not having a magic lvl isn't the same as not being a Wizard.


Yes, yes it is.

Stop pretending to be a rules lawyer - you're crap at it.

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 16:13
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Liche Priests Wizards without magic lvls?

And I haven't seen any such FAQ, would you be so kind as to post a link?

siphon101
05-05-2008, 16:13
THE OFFICIAL GW FAQ

What official FAQ? Since when did vampire counts get an FAQ?

Reinnon
05-05-2008, 16:17
the rules for magic states that you need to have a magic level to be a wizard - example: miscast table result 10-11 where it details that if you lose your magic level, you no longer count as a wizard in all respects.

liche kings have their own rules for magic and are thus unimportant for this debate.

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 16:25
I don't have my rulebook handy right now, but iirc the rules for magic lvls describe how many spells/power dice/dispel dice a wizard has. They don't govern if someone is a wizard or not?

Liche Priests are simular in the fact that they don't have magic lvls but are still considered wizards, thats why I brought it up.

siphon101
05-05-2008, 16:27
the rules for magic states that you need to have a magic level to be a wizard - example: miscast table result 10-11 where it details that if you lose your magic level, you no longer count as a wizard in all respects.

liche kings have their own rules for magic and are thus unimportant for this debate.

Ahh but therein lies the problem. As you say, the default, BRB rules, state that you have to have a magic level to be a wizard Now the liche kings are special exceptions because army books overwrite the BRB. And so liche kings can have no levels and still be wizards because the army book says so.

Well, the VC army book says all vampire characters know IoN.

Now, I'm not arguing one spot or another, but it is ludicrusly silly to say "well he's not a wizard because the BRB says that wizards need levels, except when the armybook says otherwise" when the fundamental argument behind the premise is that the line "all vampire characters" knowing IoN is the armybook saying otherwise

The other argument is "fine, he knows the spell, he just can't cast it"

Reinnon
05-05-2008, 16:28
liche priests count as wizards due to a special rule within the tomb king book.

the book doesn't say directly that you need a magic level, just that all the rules for casting magic assumes that you have one.

the miscast table states quite clearly that as soon as a "wizard" aka a vampire loses his magic evel he ceases to be a wizard - in Konrads case he never had one.

stampy
05-05-2008, 16:33
Jerrus, every character from every army book is effectively a lvl 0 wizard using your logic. Just that they know no spells and generate no dice

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 16:41
The wording in the Tomb Kings book is probably more direct, but my point is that due to the phrasing in the VC book, it could be claimed that Konrad was accidentally made inte a lvl 0 wizard.

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 16:42
Jerrus, every character from every army book is effectively a lvl 0 wizard using your logic. Just that they know no spells and generate no dice

No, because it doesn't state that they are wizards. But it is stated in the VC book that all Vampire Characters are wizards.

Milney
05-05-2008, 16:54
No, because it doesn't state that they are wizards. But it is stated in the VC book that all Vampire Characters are wizards.

Konrad isn't a Vampire Character. He's a special character who has the "Vampire" special rule.

Massive distinction that you seem to be ignoring.

siphon101
05-05-2008, 17:07
Konrad isn't a Vampire Character. He's a special character who has the "Vampire" special rule.

That seems like a nonsensically silly, and utterly false dichodemy, and I don't think he so much failed to address it as thought it wasn't worthy of much response....

Is he a character? Well, he may be an army general, and only characters can be generals according ot the BRB, so he's a character

Is he a vampire? He has the vampiric special rule so he's a vampire

OK then. He's a vampire character. The fact that he's a "special character" doesn't stop him from being a character

Milney
05-05-2008, 18:53
That seems like a nonsensically silly, and utterly false dichodemy, and I don't think he so much failed to address it as thought it wasn't worthy of much response....

Is he a character? Well, he may be an army general, and only characters can be generals according ot the BRB, so he's a character

Is he a vampire? He has the vampiric special rule so he's a vampire

OK then. He's a vampire character. The fact that he's a "special character" doesn't stop him from being a character

Or perhaps you're just too ignorant to even understand what I said.

Jerrus is arguing that because of the text on p.35 of Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts;

"Vampire: Vampire characters are wizards, as explained in The Black Art (page 38)."

Konrad must be a Wizard (albiet generating no power/dispel dice, nor spells from the Lore of the Vampires).

This is false. There are only two types of Vampire Characters in the army book - Vampire Lords and Vampires.

However what all these 'wanna-be' Rules Lawyers overlook is the rest of that infamous phrase:

"Vampire: Vampire characters are wizards, as explained in The Black Art (page 38). A Vampire is a level 1 wizard, a Vampire Lord is a level 2 wizard."

Note the capitalisation. Vampire and Vampire Lord. What's that? A proper noun? Q'uelle surprise! It explicitly states which characters found in the list it is refering to with that statement, that is, the "Vampire Lord" and the "Vampire" selections from the army list.

Now flick forward through the book (I assume you do have the book, what with your presumptious attitude and false arrogance), to the special character sections of the bestiary.

P.58, Count Vlad Von Carstein;

"Magic:
Vlad is a level 3 Wizard and knows Invocation of Nehek and three spells from the Lore of the Vampires (see page 39)."

P.59, Countess Isabella Von Carstein;

"Magic:
Isabella is a Level 1 wizard and knows the Invocation of Nehek spell and a spell from the Lore of the Vampires."

P.61, Mannfred Von Carstein;

"Magic:
Count Mannfred is a Level 4 wizard and knows Invocation of Nehek and all of the spells from the Lore of the Vampires (page 39) and the Lore of Death (see Warhammer rulebook)."

P.61, Mannfred the Acolyte;

"Magic:
Mannfred the Acolyte is a Level 2 wizard and knows Invocation of Nehek and all the spells from the Lore of the Vampires."

Oh look. Because these characters are not "Vampire Characters" (as described in the bestiary of the Army Book) they have thier Magic Levels specifically stated (often breaking the 'rules' laid out on p35) and explicit instructions that they know the Invocation of Nehek (as they are not "Vampire Characters" as described on p35 and as such do not instinctively know Invocation of Nehek as outlined for Vampire characters on p38).

Now, let's have a look at p62, Konrad Von Carstein;

Oh wait, no Magic section listed. Whatever could this mean? Possibly that he isn't a Wizard and knows no spells? NO! Clearly not... he's a character and has the "Vampire" special rule...

That 'logic' is about as sound as quick sand.

The simple fact is, Vlad and Count Mannfred are not 'Vampire Lords' - they are seperate characters in the bestiary, and as such follow thier own rules, not the rules on p35.

Similarly Isabella, Mannfred (the Acolyte) and Konrad are not 'Vampires' (from the army list) and likewise do not follow the rules on p35, but thier own bestiary entries.

They are characters, yes. They have the "Vampire" rule, yes. This does not make them a "Vampire Character" as specifically outlined on p35.

Just because someone is too dimwitted, stubborn or delusional to see the distinction does not mean there is none.

There isn't even any "wiggle" room to 'Rules Lawyer' over for this situation - it is explicitly covered in the various bestiary sections in the army book.

Konrad isn't a Wizard, doesn't know IoN. Simple as. Argue all you like, be as condescending as possible, you are wrong. The rules are explicit - if you play it any other way, it's simple cheating - not misinterpreting the rules.

blackcherry
05-05-2008, 19:21
Can i really just put some common sense into this argument?
When in his description the game designers clearly state he isn't a wizard and is just meant to be a slightly cool, hard (for a hero) combat character, then let it drop.

He isn't a wizard rules wise and any VC player who insinuates he can cast spells (from the point of a VC player as i am one) would get nothing but disdain from me. I would have to have a little talk with them.

Chicago Slim
05-05-2008, 19:34
Thanks, blackcherry, for giving an excellent and concise overview.

For my part, it makes damned little difference if my opponent wants to consider him a level 0 wizard. If my opponent wants to cast IoN with Konrad, I'll cheerfully state that I don't buy it. If my opponent insists, I'll say, "eh, you're clearly wrong about that, but whatever-- you do what you want, and let's get on with the game."


I'd like to personally and sincerely advocate this approach, for everyone out there: if your opponent cares more about pimping the rules than about your very reasonable reading of them, then let it go, and beat the bejesus out of them, anyway.

Last month, I played in a big tournament (Adepticon, which is independently-run, but gets a lot of sponsorship from GW these days), where one opponent insisted that his Arch Lector of Sigmar could keep two Remains-in-Play spells active at once (this was the week before the new FAQ came out, clearly stating the opposite). I told him, in friendly fashion, that I was quite sure that the rules didn't support that viewpoint, but that if he felt strongly about it, I was happy enough to play it "the way you're used to." I ended up with a big win, despite the fact that I later forgot that a unit that oughtn't have been unbreakable was counted, under "the way he's used to playing", as still having a spell on it.

Just, play the game. If you're playing well, you won't need to quibble over the rules, in order to win.

Gimp
05-05-2008, 20:19
Milney has it right :rolleyes:

And VCs are hardcore enough with out people bending the rules :eyebrows:

Jerrus
05-05-2008, 23:06
If Milneys definition of a "Vampire character" is correct, than none of the special characters are allowed to be the general of a VC army, as it has to be a "Vampire character" (P.88)

Konrad as a "lvl 0 wizard" is hardly gamebreaking (or lore-breaking) IMO, as his casting will still be very limited by his lack of power dice and stupidity. And if this issue ever gets mentioned in a FAQ, he will most likely be classified as "non-wizard". But as it is now, I'm having a hard time finding rules to say he's not.

ps. I'm sorry if I've been condescending or arrogant, it wasn't on purpose

Milney
05-05-2008, 23:27
Ugh, now this is just getting silly. Reason No.2 why Special Characters should never have been added to the main Army Lists....

Yes, if it was literally "Vampire Characters" hinging the definitions of this debate you'd be correct in your assumption that they couldn't be the army's general (as per p88).

However I was just using an arbitrary term to distinguish between the bestiary "Vampires" (p34/35) and the character entries in the bestiary (p58-63), as otherwise I could forsee another siphon101-type character screaming that "They have the Vampire rule! OMG! Therefore they must be 'Vampires'!".

As it stands, it's been laid out how he's not able to cast IoN. If you want to use it as a house-rule feel free (the beauty of opponents consent), but don't expect it to be accepted in serious/unfamiliar games.


But as it is now, I'm having a hard time finding rules to say he's not.

The onus is not on the rules to say something cannot happen, it's on saying it can happen. Otherwise we'd have flying Steam Tanks and handguns firing Hellstorm Missiles.

intellectawe
06-05-2008, 01:45
THE OFFICIAL GW FAQ, not to mention the Direwolf FAQ says he is NOT a wizard.


What official FAQ? Since when did vampire counts get an FAQ?

The same stupid FAQ (the GWolf ones, not the direwolf VC one) that claims Tomb Kings and Princes are wizards.

:rolleyes:

Jerrus
06-05-2008, 07:40
The onus is not on the rules to say something cannot happen, it's on saying it can happen. Otherwise we'd have flying Steam Tanks and handguns firing Hellstorm Missiles.

But the rules do state that Vampire characters are wizards and that they have IoN. If there was a rule stating that Empire warmachines are flyers and have Hellstorm Missiles, then we might debate if the STank has them (even though they are not specifically listed in its armylist entry).

Darktheos
06-05-2008, 08:22
Doesn't BRB in the miscast chart state that if you become a level zero wizard you cant cast spells? Don't have my book handy I know that on the miscast where you lose a spell and wizard level is where it would be.

mattjgilbert
06-05-2008, 08:29
Doesn't BRB in the miscast chart state that if you become a level zero wizard you cant cast spells? Don't have my book handy I know that on the miscast where you lose a spell and wizard level is where it would be.Result 10-11 - if you reach level 0 you stop counting as a wizard...

Milney
06-05-2008, 10:07
But the rules do state that Vampire characters are wizards and that they have IoN.

No, they don't.

For crying out loud I just went over this in detail.

Excuse the capitalisation, but people seem to be ignoring this point:

THE RULES SAY THAT VAMPIRE LORDS AND VAMPIRES ARE WIZARDS (LEVEL 2 and 1 RESPECTIVELY), NOT THAT ALL CHARACTERS WITH THE VAMPIRE RULE ARE WIZARDS.

For crying out loud it's not rocket science.

StormCrow
06-05-2008, 12:48
Doesn't IoN only raise zombies?

If yes then I'm afraid this topic gets a big WHO CARES from me. If not then please carry on.

For my 2 cents konrad is not a wizard, it clearly states in every conceivable means that he isn't. And liche priests aren't lvl 0 wizards, they use incantations which dont come close to following the standard rules of magic casting and thus make a poor comparison to konrad the boy wonder.

Royal Tiger
06-05-2008, 13:15
I haven't been on this Forum long, but if these are the types of idiotic questions with very simple answers that are asked, then I see why allot of people said not to join.

its been said several times that Konrad is not a wizard in any conceivable way, the book itself clearly says he has pitiful abilities magic wise, it does not list him as having a magic level either, so whats the problem?

plus you have to remember hes a SPECIAL CHARACTER, which means they usually have something to distinguish them from NORMAL CHARACTERS, having no magic seems like a distinguishing mark to me.

but then this thread seems to have turned into a trolling thread by SOME people, no name/s mentioned

EvC
06-05-2008, 13:33
I don't know that I'd accuse people of trolling, but rather some people have far too great a willingness to argue about rules that are ridiculous and clearly wrong, seemingly just so that they can claim some kind of win.

Konrad is not a Wizard. The rules are not written brilliantly, and require the reader to apply some of his own personal intelligence to work them out. Hint: Use the italicized passage above Konrad's entry as a guide. Hint two: each special character has a different magic level. Without anything telling us Konrad has a specific magic level, there's no way to determine he has any magic level at all.

Jerrus
06-05-2008, 19:34
I guess I'm wrong, sorry for the inconvinience...

Spirit
07-05-2008, 00:57
Doesn't IoN only raise zombies?

If yes then I'm afraid this topic gets a big WHO CARES from me. If not then please carry on.

For my 2 cents konrad is not a wizard, it clearly states in every conceivable means that he isn't. And liche priests aren't lvl 0 wizards, they use incantations which dont come close to following the standard rules of magic casting and thus make a poor comparison to konrad the boy wonder.

Invocation heals d6 wounds on ANY infantry model, 1 wound on any model with the vampire/ethereal/non infantry description. It cannot be used to put the unit above starting unit strength (however you get skill that let you bump them past the starting US)

Zombies gain d6+4 wounds back and can be raised above starting strength without the skills.

So yea, its a pretty amazing spell now, especially when used on black knights, grave guard or blood knights...