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View Full Version : Greater Daemons: Which do you prefer and why?



Tuch
04-05-2008, 17:17
I see allot of people using and talking of using Lords of Change and Great Unclean One's and not much else. A few like Bloodthirsters which I can agree with but I find myself liking the Keeper of Secrets as they have a nice mix of combat ability with good spell selection and even thought they don't fly they still have a 10 movement.

I change gifts around so I can try different combos but I really like sirens call.

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 17:19
I can tell you that the bloodthirster is VERY good and wiped the floor with me last night...

2d6+2 str6 attacks with hatred

Lord Aries
04-05-2008, 17:30
BT's are the best. They can kill whole armies by themselves.


3+ save, that makes them immune to enemy magic weapons.
6 Str 7 attacks with re-rolls


PWN

Sacrifice82
04-05-2008, 17:35
BT's are the best. They can kill whole armies by themselves.


3+ save, that makes them immune to enemy magic weapons.
6 Str 7 attacks with re-rolls


PWN


2d6+2 str 6 attacks... I felt that pain last night. 13 dead skeletons in 1 turn. Also, don't forget the ward save.

riven5
04-05-2008, 17:37
KoS is pretty fragile for a Greater Daemon if you ask me, so you need to tailor your gifts accordingly. The Soul Swallower gift that lets you regain a wound for each wound you deal, up to your starting maximum (of 5 wounds), is pretty darned sweet. Considering that the KoS is throwing around 6 WS9 S6 AP attacks, it's going to take a LOT to kill it once it gets into combat. Plus it's rocking ASF, so even if you get it down to 1 Wound the turn before, it still has an opportunity to go straight back to full health. You basically have to kill it right away, which ain't the easiest thing in the world to accomplish with its T6 5+ ward save thing going for it.

Only problem: Cannons, bolt throwers, etc. These things will kill the KoS in a great big flaming hurry, so make good use of its M10. Of course, the same problem applies to all the Greater Daemons. It's just that the LoC can fly, the GUO has 10 wounds and can regenerate, and the Bloodthirster...well, I assume it still flies?

W0lf
04-05-2008, 19:31
Order of Power:

Lord of change - Dirty lore and good utility

Blood thirster - 3+ save, infinite hatred and 2D6 + 2 attacks is amazing and hes usually over 100 pts cheaper.

Keeper of secrets - M10 is nice.. fly is far nicer. Practially hes a lord of change with an extra atatck (exrta ws and ASF is neglible) But cost more and is a less effective wizard. Hes a ultility thirster/change. But both do their roles better.

Great unclean one - Impossible hard to kill but a bit of a slouche in CC and static will be the death of him. ALso slowest by a hell of alot. In 6 turns he has a max move of 72" whilst the other 3 can achieve 120, 2 also have 360 movement."

shartmatau
04-05-2008, 20:35
I am planning on switching around when i play with greater daemons (since i have them all) but the keeper seems like a great thing to me. It has great stats for fighting, always strike first and armor piercing and movement 10. Keeper will usually get the charge but it doesn't really matter if he does get charged. It may need the help of another unit but has the chance of tieing static combat res on its own. My plan for it is to use Sporific mask, Sirens call, and Enrapturing Gaze. So it can force a unit to charge it (drawing them away from my main force and messing my opponents plan up), hopefully win in combat, force the unit to use its own leadership instead of perhaps the generals, then if they break having excellent chance of running it down. Back this up with a second unit on my charges if he is still in combat then I will definitely be winning the combat. And ahaving some nice spells will work pretty well I think.

Kerill
05-05-2008, 09:53
I would say:

Bloodthirster for sheer scary power
Keeper of Secrets for ASF, combat power and good spells. Also works very well with certain combinations + items.
GUO- solid, very hard to kill with trappings, nasty spells and S8 isn't shabby either.
Lord of Change- Expensive and I really can't see how they are better than Tzeentch heralds on chariots. I don't think I'll ever use one in a game of less than 2500 points. They simply don't add as much to the army as the other greater daemons.

riven5
05-05-2008, 16:15
I dunno, a LoC is pretty deadly, mostly because he can have access to four (or all!) of the Tzeentch Lore spells. Boon of Tzeentch is what I'm getting at here; typically Heralds don't have as much use for that spell, what with only having two spells available to them. A LoC on the other hand can easily spend 1 power die and get 4 back, then make good use of them. Not only that, but a LoC has a much better chance of getting the all-powerful Bolt of Change, making him even more lethal.

Or you could get him the Lore of Fire instead, and make him a Flaming Sword of Rhuin kinda-guy. Honestly the LoC has a tremendous amount of potential in my eyes. Especially if you combine him with a Lore of Heavens using Herald who casts Portent of Far on him. Hitting on a 2+, wounding damned near everything on a 2+, and utterly obliterating armor saves...then rerolling any 1's? What a beast of a wizard...

Your Mum Rang
05-05-2008, 16:18
Kipper for being an awesome fighter-mage.

Putty
05-05-2008, 16:33
i'd love to run a blood thirster in my army but the model is rather crappy and expensive to boot.

i could mod a LotR Balrog as a BT tou...

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2008, 16:49
I own a lord of change, so I will say the lord of change. That +2 to cast you can get comes in handy when trying to generate extra powerdice for yourself.

Rikkjourd
05-05-2008, 20:28
i'd love to run a blood thirster in my army but the model is rather crappy and expensive to boot.

Totally agree, if I ever get around to starting deamons I want a thirster, but not the original GW model. I will simply get a model by another company and maybe slap on some GS, armour and a big bad weapon that looks too big even for a thirster. Hell yeah!

EDIT: The reason for choosing a thirster is because it can have 2d6+2 attacks. How cool is that? Almost random enough to be in a greenskin army! =)

Gaftra
05-05-2008, 21:01
i think there are plenty of ways to convert up whichever GD you want using belakor as a base for anything since hes an amazing model.

though i would place GUO much higher since his gifts work much more in tandem with an army than simply generating wounds or pulling off a few more spells. I think they did a good job balancing the daemons all the way around but might have given the KoS gifts a little bit of a points reduction.

anyone just going to use heralds instead of daemons? im getting mighty tempted since you can mount them all

Ethlorien
05-05-2008, 21:07
I've always liked the Keeper of Secrets. Big fan of Slaanesh, and I liked the magic/combat mix with this one.

Thalis
05-05-2008, 22:15
I own a lord of change, so I will say the lord of change. That +2 to cast you can get comes in handy when trying to generate extra powerdice for yourself.

don't forget that you need a minimum dice value of 3+ regardless of any modifiers to cast any spell. so the +2 doesn't help.

Kerill
06-05-2008, 03:43
For the cost of a Lord of Change you can have 3 heralds with master of sorcery, access to all the Tzeentch spells and therefore three boons of Tzeentch and a total of between 6 and 15 power dice from them alone.

AMP187
06-05-2008, 04:39
Im a big fan of the thirster and the LoC

Admiral Samuel Eden
06-05-2008, 07:54
Totally depend on what you want to do, there is no best.
They all have their places within different army compositions and each lends itself to different tactics making them rather versatile.

solkan
11-05-2008, 06:10
Totally agree, if I ever get around to starting deamons I want a thirster, but not the original GW model. I will simply get a model by another company and maybe slap on some GS, armour and a big bad weapon that looks too big even for a thirster. Hell yeah!

EDIT: The reason for choosing a thirster is because it can have 2d6+2 attacks. How cool is that? Almost random enough to be in a greenskin army! =)

I have an old HeroQuest Bloodthirster figure. If I can find its wings, I'll have to stick it on a base and try fielding it just to get a rise out of my other players. :evilgrin:

On topic, Papa Nurgle seems to be either part of a creeping zombie horde army or a "Come and get me!" type army.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 10:32
don't forget that you need a minimum dice value of 3+ regardless of any modifiers to cast any spell. so the +2 doesn't help.

Yes, yes it does. Consider dispelling a roll of 3 on one dice. Sounds pretty easy doesn't it? Now make it 5. Confident still that you can get it on one dice? Maybe you'd better up the amount of dispel to two. Consider that the LoC actually rolls well and the casting roll is 8+! Now, do you want to use two dice? Probably not since if you fail, you've lost two and he's gained at least one. So you'll use 3. Even if you manage to dispel it, the Lord of Change has lowered the amount of resistance he's going to face with his magic.

Of course, this is just my view on the Boon of Tzeentch + Twin Heads. I think it's awesome.

Arguleon-veq
11-05-2008, 12:05
I think the Bloodthirster is the best, and pretty cheap to boot. Just compare him to a Lord on Dragon, the Bloodthirster Wrecks him and for less points.

I like the Obsidian Armour with Flaming Sword and Re-Roll misses for 7 S7 Attacks with Re-Rolls. Flaming to deal with pesky regen that is popping up a lot.

Plus he will be untouchable in combat by almost anything.

studderigdave
11-05-2008, 13:21
the thirster is just crazy. standard kit being obsidian armor, flaming axe and re-roll hits. i PLAN on running all 4 demons in a large army that im working all summer on, so ill have all 4 gods represented. the KoS is good for flanking i think, with the right upgrades. i wouldnt take tzeentch, i would take his named guy the fateweaver, to good to pass up. mt GUO wouyld be a caster, with trappings, slime trail and something else, lvl 4 of course. but of them all, the BT is just insane. not really feeling dark insanity, i like having a sold number of attacks, that possilbe 14 is cute, but i have terrible luck with that sort of stuff.

BrianGeneral
11-05-2008, 14:04
I think the Bloodthirster is the best, and pretty cheap to boot. Just compare him to a Lord on Dragon, the Bloodthirster Wrecks him and for less points.

I like the Obsidian Armour with Flaming Sword and Re-Roll misses for 7 S7 Attacks with Re-Rolls. Flaming to deal with pesky regen that is popping up a lot.

Plus he will be untouchable in combat by almost anything.
Question, what happen if I take Axe and Flaming Sword at the same time while attacking stuff which ignore Flaming attacks like Dragon Princes?

But yeah, the BT really stands out. 3+/5+, 7A, I9, T6, W5 AND a Flyer. And very customizable against enemies.

isidril93
11-05-2008, 16:33
my favourite is the keeper...2nd best caster(better than GUO since he has better movement and even though this does not affect spellcasting it lets him be at the right place at the right time), second best fighter (BT is first) and has spirit swallower and is my favourite daemon model (almost the reson why i collect daemons)

@brian im not sure what happen...i think he loses the +1 s and the flaming attacks but still gets to attack...i mean if it was not like that you could easily kill the thirster with a unit if DP

mortetvie
11-05-2008, 18:05
For the cost of a Lord of Change you can have 3 heralds with master of sorcery, access to all the Tzeentch spells and therefore three boons of Tzeentch and a total of between 6 and 15 power dice from them alone.

Just for starters, master of sorcery is any spell in the main rulebook, so you won't have all the tzeench spells. The GD of tzeench can have really nice gifts (like a free re-roll on ANYTHING-I usually play big games so 2 gds with 2 re-rolls is insanity). They are just more reliable as far as magic goes, not to mention being able to use 5 dice per spell rather than max 3.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 18:16
Just for starters, master of sorcery is any spell in the main rulebook, so you won't have all the tzeench spells. The GD of tzeench can have really nice gifts (like a free re-roll on ANYTHING-I usually play big games so 2 gds with 2 re-rolls is insanity).

Do you have the book? By the manner of your writing, I can only conclude that you don't, or haven't read it very well. Master of Sorcery DOES grant you all the spells in the Lore of Tzeentch OR a rulebook lore. However, to err is human.


They are just more reliable as far as magic goes, not to mention being able to use 5 dice per spell rather than max 3.

This, combined with the sturdiness and the flight of a greater daemon of Tzeentch, is why I wouldn't replace a Lord of Change with heralds.

tortoise
11-05-2008, 18:20
I think the keeper is incredibly versatile. Its excellent in combat and has a good spell lore. With M10 and the right gifts it's a superbly powerful disruption unit. With Spirit swallower it is really tough and can act as an immovable anchor for your army.

While the Thirster is incredible in combat the daemon lores of magic are too good to miss out on.

Lijacote- I think its you that doesn't have the book.

"Master of sorcery- the daemon can use any of the lores of magic from the warhammer rulebook instead of its normal lore" (my emphasis in italics).

sulla
11-05-2008, 19:43
I'm starting with a LoC. Since my daemons will not have a full compliment of characters but I still want a decent amount of magic, he will be tricked out for heavy magic.

Keepers are very tempting though.

Lijacote
11-05-2008, 19:51
... Actually, disregard everything I've said. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

][nquist0r
11-05-2008, 20:01
Question, what happen if I take Axe and Flaming Sword at the same time while attacking stuff which ignore Flaming attacks like Dragon Princes?


Then you are literally screwed. Dragon armor provides immunity to both the flaming attacks and the vehicle. You could not hurt a DP if you have the flaming axe. Something to think about if you choose a TAC list.

Lordsaradain
11-05-2008, 20:48
I'm going for the GUO, simply because that way i can field a Greater daemon without buying one, converting a GUO from bitz, a gluegun, greenstuff and that pink terrainbuilding material should be easy. :)

But I'd love to have a BT too, a monstrous meele monster is exactly the way I like to play.

fubukii
12-05-2008, 00:00
id say i prefer the lord of change or the keeper, the loc is still good in combat and has some serious magical power. THe keeper is even better in combat and still has a good lore to boot.

BrianGeneral
12-05-2008, 01:12
[nquist0r;2601597']Then you are literally screwed. Dragon armor provides immunity to both the flaming attacks and the vehicle. You could not hurt a DP if you have the flaming axe. Something to think about if you choose a TAC list.
So even the Axe provides Killing Blow won't work as well?

stampy
12-05-2008, 01:53
1st) Keeper of Secrets
2nd) Lord of Change
3rd) Bloodthirster

Would never consider a great unclean one or a daemon prince

Lijacote
20-05-2008, 00:26
the book.

"Master of sorcery- the daemon can use any of the lores of magic from the warhammer rulebook instead of its normal lore" (my emphasis in italics).

I return triumphantly. Disregard EVERYTHING else, but note my victory, for it is glorious. Victory in italics.


The daemon CAN use any of the Lores of Magic from the Warhammer rulebook INSTEAD of its normal lore. It knows all the spells from whichever Lore it chooses.

I have won. The Internet.

Delicious Soy
20-05-2008, 01:41
Bloodthirsters obsidian armour make it my most feared GD to face. Considering I play TK, it leaves me reliant of stonethrowers to try and kill him.

Cap'n Facebeard
20-05-2008, 02:30
Bloodthirsters obsidian armour make it my most feared GD to face. Considering I play TK, it leaves me reliant of stonethrowers to try and kill him.

Stonethowers that could be negated a million ways:

1 - Furies
2 - Scouting Nurglings
3 - Flying Herald of Tzeentch with Master Of Sorcery, using Law Of Metal to get Commandment of Brass (phew!)

So maybe not a million, but def enough to screw TKs crusty dead ... ahem.

E-616
20-05-2008, 12:52
I've played a couple of games against Daemons with my VC now, the first game I went up against a Keeper of secrets, pretty fast and decent attacks with a bit of spell casting on the side, I was able to tarpit it for most of the game with zombies, if it had a bad hth phase it would lose some wounds to instability but regain them the next turn with the special sword that restores wounds for each wound caused.

It's probably the best all rounder of the GD.

Second game had me face off against a Bloodthirster, this guy you can't tarpit so easily as he'll fly where he wants and can average about 8 wounds in each hth phase against almost any unit, you'll need to kill him as early as possible as he'll be in combat by the second turn.

High movement and lots of re-rollable attacks with MR and a good save combined with the lowest cost of the GD makes him the most easiest to use choice I'd say.

For sheer resilience the GUO, that nasty spell that reduces most stats to 1 in hth makes him pretty mean in hth even with his low attacks and the LOC would work best at the head of a magical heavy army.

That's my thoughts so far :)

shartmatau
20-05-2008, 14:34
Well I played two games so far with a Keeper and he has done amazingly well. Both games he had siren song and enrapturing gaze. On his own he smashed through eight knights (5 killed on the charge, the other 3 on opponents turn). Then I foolishly charged him in to help some beasts of nurgle against a block of flagellants. It took two full turns but then they were all dead as well. He took down 4 of 6 pistoliers with Slicing Shards and caused the hell blaster crew to flee off the board.
The next game was not as good, he was tarpitted by a unit a Saurus Warriors for 4 full turns. Challenge with the Champ, then challenge with a hero in the unit, then smashing through guys. They finally broke and he pursued off the board so ended up only being able to cast on the last turn. His spells didn't do much because of the lizzies great magic defense and some bad rolling. Still it was great for him, he only took one wound the whole game.
I didn't get to use siren song because there were no effective uses in these games. I'm going to keep playing around with it for a while though. Anyway, 1 major victory and 1 draw for my four god daemons army.