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greendan
05-05-2008, 03:20
Is anyone else having trouble facing cairn wraiths??
I play empire and seem to be having trouble stopping them from either causing mass terror and panic amongst my troops or simply ploughing into a unit and destroying it.
I know most people will simply say throw magic at them, but it is'nt that simple.
Being skirmishers and having a good movement of 6 they can hide behind units and then charge a couple of turns later.
Also throw in a Banshee for some screaming :(.
I'm not complaining as such, I think they're a good unit, but they seem a little undercosted for what they can do??
Last edition they were 90pts and so was a banshee.
Now they've dropped 40pts and gained an additional attack? plus the banshee is cheaper to boot.
My friend uses a large unit between 4-7 and usually has an ethereal vampire hanging out with them.
This unit does pretty much the majority of damage in every game.
It dishes out an obscene amount of high strength attacks and generally i have no attacks back.
Winning by combat res is hard due to the sheer amount of damage they can deliver.
So how would you deal with them??
I tend to use characters with magical weapons and throw fireballs at them for a couple of turns, but again magic is unpredictable and the other player always has dispel dice.
Oh what to do....:chrome:

Darkspear
05-05-2008, 03:23
Use the cheesy light magic. No LOS needed and cause horrendous amount of wounds on undead. You can even take out his Vampire easily!

Alathir
05-05-2008, 04:01
They were awful last edition, absolutely awful and they were a hero choice, not a unit.

They are 50 points a pop and will fall like gnoblars to any focused magic missile fire. I play High Elves and Bretonnians so I don't have trouble dealing with them. But your friends build does sound tough, perhaps try a Wizard lord with the lore of light (or the war altar) and blast them to kingdom come. Cleansing flar will do nasty things to undead, nasty, nasty things.

Kerill
05-05-2008, 04:16
Don't empire also have a multiple shot magic bow? Dragon bow on a captain (maybe on pegasus) can cause them some grief as well.

greendan
05-05-2008, 04:17
We usually play smaller games i.e 1000-1500pts.
I used the war alter once at 2000 and made a serious mess of his army.
So at lower points magic is'nt as abundant.
The more wizards i take means lower leadership for units and less fighty characters.

I imagine a mass cairn wraith army would be a nasty surprise to anyone who was'nt prepared for it.
Some armies like ogres would seriously struggle against them i think. I know yhetees have magical attacks but really who uses them?

I suppose light magic is good though, i generally use it although i am tempted with fire magic always for its sheer destructive abilities.
But again them being skirmishers means they can creep around behind units use terror and then pop out when necessary.
Gah. :chrome:

Anaxagoras
05-05-2008, 05:26
We usually play smaller games i.e 1000-1500pts.
I used the war alter once at 2000 and made a serious mess of his army.
So at lower points magic is'nt as abundant.
The more wizards i take means lower leadership for units and less fighty characters.

I imagine a mass cairn wraith army would be a nasty surprise to anyone who was'nt prepared for it.
Some armies like ogres would seriously struggle against them i think. I know yhetees have magical attacks but really who uses them?

I suppose light magic is good though, i generally use it although i am tempted with fire magic always for its sheer destructive abilities.
But again them being skirmishers means they can creep around behind units use terror and then pop out when necessary.
Gah. :chrome:

If your friend is bringing 4-7 wraiths in a 1000 point list, the wraiths aren't the problem.

Fredmans
05-05-2008, 08:53
I run O&G and have serious trouble with them as well. A magic-heavy VC army incidentally gets protection against what could seriously hurt ethereals, namely magic missiles.

Fortunately, O&G includes a lot of cheap magic weapons which I have started to kit out my three bosses with. On a mounted supported charge, they can almost always come out on top. But I still agree, they are nasty.

I know very little of Empire items, but I guess one or two captains on flying mounts with magic weapons could do the same trick. Think of it as ethereal hunting instead of war machine hunting. Said captains could also act like chariots supporting your ranked infantry to avoid stalemates and wars of attrition.

/Fredmans, who is not an Empire, but an O&G general and also rightly fears wraiths

Latro
05-05-2008, 09:40
Even a character with a magical weapon on his own will have problems dealing with Wraiths:

- first there's the terror/fear test you'll have to make before charging
- then there's the possible stand-and-scream reaction from the Banshee
- then you'll have to hit (Helm of Commandment nearby?) and wound
- ... and finally there will be up to 6 strength 5 attacks coming back

My Wraiths got charged by a very fast Scar Veteran with a magic weapon last tournament, they simply killed the little lizard in combat. So keep in mind that single heroes will very often score just a single wound against them and will very likely die/run as a results.


:cool:

W0lf
05-05-2008, 10:15
never really rated them tbh.

But then my main opponent is a SAD skaven player and i do play Tzeentch Mortals myself.

Irisado
05-05-2008, 10:21
I play Empire (and Vampire Counts, incidentally), and if you can't obliterate Wraiths with magic, I've found the best way to stop them is to assault them with ranked infantry.

Yes, you may well lose a whole rank of troops due to their attacks, and your risk the Banshee's howl, but if your unit is led by a Warrior Priest and/or the Battle Standard Bearer, I've found that they can be beaten. Solid ranks are the key to defeating Ethereal creatures.

Another important fact to consider is that if Wraiths don't charge, you get the chance to hit them first if any of your characters is carrying a magic weapon. It's hard to outmanoevre a unit of Wraiths, but if you manage to charge them before the can charge you, you stand a much better chance of defeating them.

If all else fails, a Light Wizard Lord is very good against all types of Undead :angel:.

Max zero
05-05-2008, 10:40
Wraiths are interesting versus a Skavan SAD. While they can get shredded by Ratling Guns, etc, if you can keep them screened they can pretty much smash everything a Skaven player can throw at them in close combat.

Wraiths are the only other unit, apart from Blood Knights, that really have the 'oh crap!' factor in combat. They need a little more support then Blood Knights but then again they can't be baited. If you can get the Helm on them and/or a VHD they will pretty much shred units.

If your only playing a Skaven SAD then you can probably find something better to spend your points on but if you fight a variety they can be very useful.

scarletsquig
05-05-2008, 14:57
Don't empire also have a multiple shot magic bow? Dragon bow on a captain (maybe on pegasus) can cause them some grief as well.

Dragon bow is single-shot. Utterly useless when it comes to taking out 40 wounds from a 20-wraith army. Most characters with magic weapons fall to 9 S5 attacks pretty quickly as well.

Plus the army is generally backed up by insane magic defense to make sure you can't get any magic missiles off on them! :D

txamil
05-05-2008, 22:47
And magic bows are not magic attacks now, correct?

Darkspear
06-05-2008, 01:52
@txamil. Only for woodelves. this is because wood elves clearly differentiates between arrows and bows but not other armies. This may be subjected to debate though but that's how I read it

Kalist
07-05-2008, 04:26
You could try sitting a wizard on a hill and try to get some spells that only require line of sight then missile them to death.

What are the base sizes of wraiths? The same as zombies/skeletons/ghouls, or are the base sizes bigger than 20mm?

Latro
07-05-2008, 06:13
What are the base sizes of wraiths? The same as zombies/skeletons/ghouls, or are the base sizes bigger than 20mm?

20mm


:cool:

2d6
07-05-2008, 11:48
Last edition they were 90pts and so was a banshee.
Now they've dropped 40pts and gained an additional attack? plus the banshee is cheaper to boot.

A stand alone wraith was paying a lot of points for terror, adding terror to a unit has very little benefit over terror on an individual so they had to come down in points.

EvC
07-05-2008, 12:19
Although they've also been given an extra attack, which makes them killer. A big unit of Wraiths can beat a fully ranked-up infantry unit thanks to their 3 S5 attacks each, which makes them too strong in my opinion. I'm happy to use 3 + Banshee in my armies though.

warlord hack'a
07-05-2008, 12:49
@ max zero: ratling guns can not shred cairn wraiths as the wraiths are ethereal and can therefore be hurt only by magical attacks or combat resolution..

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2008, 12:56
@ warlock hack'a
You may want to check the rules for ratling guns.

fubukii
07-05-2008, 16:24
warlord, all skaven shooting is magical and tears etheral units a new one :)

Necronoxz
07-05-2008, 18:10
here are some options:
-strike them down with magic from your wizards ofc.
-soulfire from the warrior priest will do.
-doomfire ring will own cain wraiths OFC. :)
-magic weapon's on your charracters will kill them ;)
-warior priest on war altar of sigmar will alway's do
-my favorite BEAT THEM AT COMBAT RESOLUTION
remember if you charge them with a 3 rank unit with a character with a few attack's and a magic weapon your opponent must cause at least 5-6 wounds to make a draw in combat ;) and for each point he lozes the combat that's 1 extra wound on the cain wraiths :D

lord opium
07-05-2008, 18:56
I use wraiths in my VC army and the cut through most things. i played a 1000pt game and took 2 vamps 40 skeletons and 5 wraiths and the wraiths cut through a unit of lead belchers killing 2 and they fled and the same to a unit of ironguts.

The best way to get rid of them would be magic missiles or maybe try a battle wizard with flaming sword in a ranked unit or if bears anger confers magical attacks try the same with that.

Hope this helps

Oracle
14-05-2008, 04:12
What about killing them with O&G? I don't have a huge assortment of great MM (especially if I'm taking little Waaagh), not many flaming attacks/warrior priests/light magic, and they shred my LD a new one. You can say use CR, but with 3 S5 A and HoC nearby, they will destroy a unit of regular orcs on the charge, not even mentioning gobbos. So what then?

WusteGeist
14-05-2008, 07:10
As a VC player I will tell you what I do not want to face when using my wraiths and other lovely VC evil. Priest and Arch Lector in a the pope mobile. Lots and lots of casting, AOE damage that I have to toss a die at and hope for a 3+ each time(skull staff for the +1), and then to top it off the thrice cursed pop mobile sitting there spamming off some random spell at silly high casting values.

Oracle
14-05-2008, 07:21
As a VC player I will tell you what I do not want to face when using my wraiths and other lovely VC evil. Priest and Arch Lector in a the pope mobile. Lots and lots of casting, AOE damage that I have to toss a die at and hope for a 3+ each time(skull staff for the +1), and then to top it off the thrice cursed pop mobile sitting there spamming off some random spell at silly high casting values.

What about non-empire armies?

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 10:29
A Waywatcher Noble with Resplendence in a unit of 10 Waywatchers. Magical killing blow? Yes please!

eleveninches
14-05-2008, 10:56
They are nasty if you use decent sized units, but i still prefer varghulfs

theunwantedbeing
14-05-2008, 11:07
You need magic, a character with a magical weapon(prefferably a shooting one).
Failing that, hit them with something they cant hurt very easily that will beat them in combat by several points(knights are just about the only thing here....unless you have some high toughness 4+ or better save regenerating ward save toting troops to throw at them).

Often you just have to hope that the banshee doesnt shred your stuff with it's stand and shoot(or charge it from less than 4" away perhaps....fairly sure that works) or that you pass the panic test you are inevitably going to have to take.

Another idea...throw 2 character's at them, and 2 fully ranked units from different sides.
The character's go first forcing them to rank up, then you slap them in their newly created flanks with something ranked.

They are a pain to kill though. At least they can only be raised 1 wound at a time.

spikedog
14-05-2008, 11:08
Your friend uses the same setup that I do for my Wraiths. 3/4 + Banshee + Ethereal Vampire to keep the wounds off.

I find it is a very hard unit but also one that costs an arm and a leg. If you are lucky you might find your VC opponent spends too much time working out how to best use this unit and forgets about putting the same thought into the rest of his army.

If I were playing O&G I would put a couple of big units of goblins with your Warboss behind them in front of the Wraith unit and just try to tie them up for as long as possible.

KharnTheBetrayer01
14-05-2008, 14:19
They are an evil squad to beat...Annilated a whole squad (15 strong) of Knights of the White Wolf in two rounds...

Best tactic I have found is to charge them with a large block of rank and file troops backed up by a Hero. All armies can have them and they do well. Good CR bonus, magical attacks from the Hero/Lord and boom, dead wraiths.

Failing that take skaven or demons. Muchos magical attacks.

Spirit
14-05-2008, 14:52
Unwanted, i really don't see how i could let someone charge my m6 skirmishers with 4 units.

Heroes generally aren't the option because most of the time they cant catch them, and even if they do, its usually a flying hero, which usually still gets cut down by 3-9 WS6 S5 attacks. (i never leave home without the helm)

EvC
14-05-2008, 17:25
Best tactic I have found is to charge them with a large block of rank and file troops backed up by a Hero. All armies can have them and they do well. Good CR bonus, magical attacks from the Hero/Lord and boom, dead wraiths.

A big unit of Wraiths (7+) will be able to withstand this. And you do not want to be locked into combat like that, with the VC player's turn next and all the evil he can do...

greendan
14-05-2008, 18:04
Charging them with infantry seems like an easy option, but first you have to pass a terror check or leg it. Secondly the banshee can stand and scream which can be fairly devastating.
And like someone posted, it's not likely that your block unit is going to be charging a movement 6 skirmishing unit.
2 attacks each would of been fine and left them as an effective unit.
But as they are can, if not anticipated, do absurd amounts of damage.

Malorian
14-05-2008, 18:50
I like to think that cairn wriaths are a lot like steam tanks, in that when at full power they are devestating, but once they take some damage their effectiveness drops dramatically.

My six wraiths will mess you up big time, but if I just lose a couple of those models due to a magic missile or magical weapon, then I can't kill enough to take on fully ranked infantry any more without worry, and once I'm down to three or less I'm really in trouble.

The helm is also a big thing to keep away from these guys. If a vampire is making these guys WS 6 or 7 then your in for an even bigger hurt.

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 19:47
I still think my Waywatcher solution is best :P

Malorian
14-05-2008, 19:54
If your woodelves you need nothing more than hail of doom arrow and dryads.

Spirit
15-05-2008, 00:51
I like to think that cairn wriaths are a lot like steam tanks, in that when at full power they are devestating, but once they take some damage their effectiveness drops dramatically.

My six wraiths will mess you up big time, but if I just lose a couple of those models due to a magic missile or magical weapon, then I can't kill enough to take on fully ranked infantry any more without worry, and once I'm down to three or less I'm really in trouble.

The helm is also a big thing to keep away from these guys. If a vampire is making these guys WS 6 or 7 then your in for an even bigger hurt.

This is why my helm is firmly rooted on a hellsteed!

WusteGeist
15-05-2008, 05:49
What about non-empire armies?

Ok which armies do you need advice on? I find myself in the odd position of being on the side that can tell you what my wraiths would never want to face.
Here is what a unit of wraiths never wants to face.

Well armored units to the front where the full bonus comes into play. Like iron breakers or anyone with a 2+ save and a few ranks. This makes wounds harder and combat res alot harder to get. For the wraiths that is.

Anything with lots of magical attacks.

Anything with a series of saves. Good Armour good ward and regen would be a fracking nightmare.

Anything that can generate alot of static combat res. Like elves with banner or war.

Lastly anyone with tons of magic.

That should sum it up nicely enough. Any combination of these will bring hurt to wraiths.

Oracle
15-05-2008, 08:35
Ok which armies do you need advice on? I find myself in the odd position of being on the side that can tell you what my wraiths would never want to face.
Here is what a unit of wraiths never wants to face.

Well armored units to the front where the full bonus comes into play. Like iron breakers or anyone with a 2+ save and a few ranks. This makes wounds harder and combat res alot harder to get. For the wraiths that is.

Anything with lots of magical attacks.

Anything with a series of saves. Good Armour good ward and regen would be a fracking nightmare.

Anything that can generate alot of static combat res. Like elves with banner or war.

Lastly anyone with tons of magic.

That should sum it up nicely enough. Any combination of these will bring hurt to wraiths.

Hmm, unfortunately it seems as an O&G player I'm missing out on awesome saves, anything better than a 6+ Wsv on a troop, and no regen except trolls, which would be demolished by the Banshee's scream on stand and shoot. Not too much magic Dakka as most of it goes to moving my army forwards. I guess the only thing I can hope for is ranked units getting static CR, but when there's up to 9 Wraiths with their 3 attacks, WS 7 thanks to the Helm, and many more punishing goodies, it's still going to be tough. Add to that the few CR wounds I do get on them can be quickly replenished spamming IoN on them.

My ally the DE player will probably have less troubles, but most of his good units are non-magical attackers, with fairly poor T and ArSv, so he's in the same boat. As a skirmishing unit, they can be annoying to magic, and without a really strong magic base myself, nor high Ld/high ArSv troops to call on, I find these guys, as well as the Vargulf, a really challenging prospect.

Da Black Gobbo
15-05-2008, 09:24
I tell you what i'd do: In a small game for example 1500 points get a warrior priest mounted with a magical weapon sword of might for example in a small unit of 5 inner circle knights, 1 priest with sigismund sword and a lvl2 wizzard with lore of light, Flagelants, and the rest at your taste, with 3 Undead killers you will have very easy to kill those Cairn Wraith.

Soulfire kill undeads dead.
Lore of light too.

Now go ahead and destroy them!

EvC
15-05-2008, 10:05
That's what one opponent of mine thought. So I placed my Wraiths 7.5" away from the unit, screamed once (No damage), screamed twice on the stand and shoot, got a high roll roll, panicked them off the board.

Your opponents will thank you :)

Spirit
15-05-2008, 11:31
Again, how does a unit of knights (which the undead player will KNOW has characters in them, who have undead killing prayers) get into combat with a M6 skirmisher. And seeing as they will get the charge on a foot mounted model, how do you expect a hero to survive against 9 WS6 S5 attacks? Probably with vanhells cast aswell, but even without i see them killing a priest.

It seems to me that there isnt a combat solution to wraiths, because they will just hide (or scream, but i always seem to roll low with the scream..) from your killer units. Once the knights have been engaged with zombies, they will set about the flagellents and probably kill them in 2 or 3 turns.

Wraiths are only as fragile as the undead player makes them, which is what makes them so dammed good. The only downside to them is in players who dont tailer their army lists, as they might hit wood elves or daemons.

Ive stopped using wraiths at my LGS because there are no daemon or woodies (yet..) and no one i have played can bring anything to bear on my 4 wraiths and a bsb vamp. Ive lost 2 to magic in one game, so i raised one back (on one wound) and then didn't lose any more for the rest of the game..

On using wraiths, a very fun tactic is to use a corpse cart with the unholy lodestone, so each casting of invocation of nehek brings back a 50 point wraith... Then they truly are un killable.

Ozorik
15-05-2008, 12:16
Dwarves should have a reasonably ok time in the early game with their magical warmachines. A couple of bolt throwers with cheap runes are common in even non gunline armies and they should reduce the wraiths numbers enough for them to be manageable when they do hit your lines.

Yes the wraiths will be screened a lot of the time but 2 bolt throwers will kill 1 wraith on average a turn.

Max zero
15-05-2008, 12:33
To make them even more annoying you can screen them with something as simple as some Dire Wolves. They are good units to screen since any scattering artillery fire does not hurt them (unless your fighting Dwarves).

*edit*

To the guy above: yes Dwarf guns can shoot Wraiths well. That's what flying, terror causing, 3+ ward saving Vampires are for.

Ozorik
15-05-2008, 14:53
which is what slayers are for etc, etc, etc.

Every tactic has a counter and every counter has a counter, its the nature of a game based on tactics.

Incidentally that vampire will kill 2 or 3 dwarf crewmen on the turn that he charges. If there is an engieneer there and there should be he will challenge so in effect you will kill a single crewman. The remaining crew are stubborn so are unlikely to flee. This is where the slayers get to play 'decapitate the vampire'. He is also more expensive than both bolt throwers combined and he can only shut down 1 before his inevitable, if protracted, demise. Vampires also cant have both flying and terror as it comes to 55 points. Personally Id be more worried about zombie screens.

andy10k
15-05-2008, 17:04
Vampires also cant have both flying and terror as it comes to 55 points. Personally Id be more worried about zombie screens.

I think he was referring to a mounted lord on dragon/abyssl :P

I love wraiths, and can't wait to start hitting the tournament scene with my unit of 9 including banshee, only daemons and the odd wood elf army scare me (not that much though) but I'm sure I'll get around it :D

Max zero
15-05-2008, 17:26
A Vampire can get flight by mounting on a Hellsteed also.

Ozorik
15-05-2008, 17:56
Yeah I noticed that, I fell prey to the perils of army builder :)

I would love him to use a lord, its that much easier to kill off the general that way.

Da Black Gobbo
15-05-2008, 20:37
Inner Circle knight charge the Wraiths with the Priest how has the +1 strength and always strike first, cast soul of fire on them 1-6 hits str5 no save 1-6 probably Wounds, assume you make 3 wounds and then hit with your 2 str5 attacks re-rolling=2wounds more so 5 wounds +1 Standard+bigger size=7 Cairn Wraiths will have a hard time doing 7 wounds with WS3. And if you want to be nasty (and a bit beardy) you can charge the dead guys making a conga line with the priest beeing the only one in contact with the CW.

andy10k
15-05-2008, 22:24
Well, that's a nice thought at first, but most compitent VC players will be waiting for the soulfire, and have 2 dd ready, also they will be WS6/7 90% of the time too, and attacking back (most likely killing the priest). Oh, and they shouldn't be really standing in the open awaiting a charge from a conga lining priest + inner circle knights :P

Dexter099
15-05-2008, 22:59
Exalted Champion of Nurgle with Sword of Might and Enchanted Shield. 5+ armor save against the CWs, and negate their terror.

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch with spell green fire. Laugh as his cairn wraiths tear each other apart.
Fire thingy that does 2d6 str d6+1 hits. Sigh with relief as you wipe out the unit with 12 S7 hits.
Lord of Tzeentch should tear them apart, as he will re-roll all his dice if he gets orange fire.
Give him or any chaos lord a rending sword, blade of blood, and helm of many eyes. The rending sword will usually kill wraiths in one hit, and the blade of blood will give your lord 6 wounds as he sucks out the wraiths' wounds with ease.

How about a hellcannon? One accurate hit, and the unit is no more, as it fires magical stuffs.

How about you misguide his unit and force it to run backwards with the lore of slaanesh. It should work, as they are skirmishers and can see anywhere.

sing Sang a song
15-05-2008, 23:06
also its hard for them to win any CR so likely they will get destroyed by CR, i know this beacuse my wraiths always been killed by CR EVERY SINGLE TIME against empire...,

Spirit
16-05-2008, 00:28
Inner Circle knight charge the Wraiths with the Priest how has the +1 strength and always strike first, cast soul of fire on them 1-6 hits str5 no save 1-6 probably Wounds, assume you make 3 wounds and then hit with your 2 str5 attacks re-rolling=2wounds more so 5 wounds +1 Standard+bigger size=7 Cairn Wraiths will have a hard time doing 7 wounds with WS3. And if you want to be nasty (and a bit beardy) you can charge the dead guys making a conga line with the priest beeing the only one in contact with the CW.


Seriously, you are not going to charge m6 skirmishers with knights, the undead player simply wont let you, between units of zombies popping up in front of your expensive knights to redirect them, wraiths hiding in trees and vanhells making them do the can can, you ain't gonna get anywhere near them,

Ozorik
16-05-2008, 07:12
Why inner circle knights? The extra strength is completely wasted.

Max zero
16-05-2008, 09:25
But...but...they are Inner Circle! If they could hit them they would rock their socks!

Seriously though, Wraiths are a mixed bunch. Some armies are good against (WE, Daemons) and some have issues. Empire falls into the 'has issues' category. Yes, yes your Arch Lector on a walter will own them but do you really think i'm going to let you charge them?

VC Doke
18-05-2008, 00:13
And magic bows are not magic attacks now, correct?

They're magic attacks. If they're in the magic items list they are magic attacks.

Everything else that is a magic attack specifically says it is, otherwise it's mundane.

explorator
18-05-2008, 02:37
They're magic attacks. If they're in the magic items list they are magic attacks.

Everything else that is a magic attack specifically says it is, otherwise it's mundane.

I checked the most recent FAQ for Wood Elves.

Q. Do normal arrows fired by a magic bow count as magical attacks?

A. No, they do not. Only magic arrows count as magical attacks.

Da Black Gobbo
18-05-2008, 20:36
Why inner circle knights? The extra strength is completely wasted.

Because he will kill other things and will need the extra point in strength.

DarthBinky
18-05-2008, 20:54
Exalted Champion of Tzeentch with spell green fire. Laugh as his cairn wraiths tear each other apart.
Green Fire has no effect on units which are immune to psychology. If you're facing undead, you'll probably want to swap Green for Red....

Draconian77
18-05-2008, 21:04
"Q. Do normal arrows fired by a magic bow count as magical attacks?

A. No, they do not. Only magic arrows count as magical attacks."

My Lifetaker is having a lot of fun with this one, by RAW it is not a "bow" and it fires bolts not arrows! :p Which is my round about way of saying my group aren't using that FAQ in our games...

Incidently, I find Lifetaker to be the ticket against CR, normally gets 2-3 before they reach combat at which point I'm normally +5 vs 4-6 attacks. Also a magic heavy list will kill them regardless of DD, focused offensive magic cannot be entirely blocked.

theunwantedbeing
18-05-2008, 21:10
The lifetaker fires magical bolts that get to re-roll failed rolls to wound.
Not mundane ones....if it just always hit on a 2+ then the bolts would be mundane.

Draconian77
18-05-2008, 21:32
Yeah, I wasn't really being serious about bolts/arrows/whatever. My group is just playing Magic Weapon = Magical Attack because we think it makes sense...

Max zero
19-05-2008, 04:34
The question is whether that bow/magic ruling only applies to WE (since they can buy magic arrows) or everyone else too.

For simplicity our gaming group limited it to just WE.

EvC
19-05-2008, 09:19
Seriously, you are not going to charge m6 skirmishers with knights, the undead player simply wont let you, between units of zombies popping up in front of your expensive knights to redirect them, wraiths hiding in trees and vanhells making them do the can can, you ain't gonna get anywhere near them,

Seriously, let him! Between the terror test (Failed a quarter of the time on LD8), and the stand and scream (And subsequent panic test if you managed to roll 8+) he might not even make it to your lines. Then dispel Soulfire (easy peasy), let his Priest kill one Wraith, and then chop him up. Almost worth letting him wipe out half the unit just do remove one dispel dice from the enemy pool, and then next turn, the Wraiths come back, and the Knights go byebye :D

ScreamingDoombull
19-05-2008, 19:37
I'm just picking up Vampire counts and I gotta say, the Wraiths looks darn sexy. My only problem is that one of the guys who I play regularly is picking up demons. On top of that, he's going a little flamer crazy.
I really want to bring a unit of wraiths because they are so awesome, but it's obvious that they can't compete with the lower priced flamers. Should I drop em? Are there any tips for fighting the new demons?

E-616
20-05-2008, 13:02
@ScreamingDoombull
I have a similar dilemma, as I'm looking to field a Wraith unit but may have to fight them against Daemons.

My thoughts are to use them defensively in a smaller unit with a Banshee and out of LoS if there are Flamers bouncing around, one weakness that the Daemons have is their average leadership values and the fact that you can now use the Banshee's howl against them, you should average at least 2 wounds on a unit even if they're out of sight or in hth, they will get their ward saves but if you roll high enough you can cause some significant damage :)

ScreamingDoombull
20-05-2008, 18:05
E-616,
That is a good idea. I was planning on bringing 5 wraiths w/o the banshee but as noted, that doesn't seem to be effective. I might drop one and upgrade another to a banshee to cope with demons. With 3 wraiths and a banshee, it should still be an effective combat unit.

Malorian
20-05-2008, 20:45
If you are going to fight deamons a lot you may want to change you list. For myself I plan to keep them. Sure they won't do as well as against other armies, but they will still do well and pack a good punch.

Just hide behind your regular blocks and then use them to counter charge later. Terrain is also your friend and you can use LOS to your advantage to hide from the flamers but still have LOS out towards a different unit.

Knighta
20-05-2008, 21:10
Roughly how many points is this unit of 3/4 + banshee + ethereal vampire?

Malorian
20-05-2008, 21:13
You're looking at about 400 points.

These units are pretty expensive, and can go down very quickly... but when used right they are absolute game winners.

Gharof von Carstein
20-05-2008, 22:29
atm im fielding 2 wraiths with a banshee on the left side to quickly move up with a vampire or varghulf. is that a decent tactic or should i maybe add more? perhaps another escort for the march?

plus im kinda a beginning player so what are wraiths best used against? what armys should I avoid or specifically what types of units?

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2008, 23:22
Wraiths work against anything without magical attacks....things like shooting troops or ranked infantry, or anything that you simply dont want to have fighting your skellies/ghouls/zombies.

Like ogres, ogres cant hurt wraiths, but the wraiths can certainly hurt the ogres.
Dont bother with a vampire in the unit....he'll be 150points and grant them the ability to march, when the unit can get an extra man that hits cirtually as hard as him for 100points less and they can march anyway so long as they keep near a vampire.

It's worth keeping them hidden as magical spells will hurt them quite badly so you dont really want them out in the open.
As they skirmish and are ethereal they are perfectly happy to wander through terrain so it''s not a disadvantage to have to do that.

Spirit
21-05-2008, 15:11
@ScreamingDoombull
I have a similar dilemma, as I'm looking to field a Wraith unit but may have to fight them against Daemons.

My thoughts are to use them defensively in a smaller unit with a Banshee and out of LoS if there are Flamers bouncing around, one weakness that the Daemons have is their average leadership values and the fact that you can now use the Banshee's howl against them, you should average at least 2 wounds on a unit even if they're out of sight or in hth, they will get their ward saves but if you roll high enough you can cause some significant damage :)

To be honest, against daemons a varghulf will tear up its points much faster than "defensive" wraiths that die when the daemons breath on them.

The problem is that if you use them defensivly, you cannot have a unit bigger than 3, 175 points. against other armies, they will still ave the combat res and or magic to shoot them down, against daemons you have to be VERY VERY careful. It just seems like your picking the worst of both world (too small for combat, too fragile to do much against daemons)

If i "could" be facing daemons i would look at a T6 black coach, as not much in the demon army has S7. Varghulfs are arguably the best tarpit unit in the game, against a FULLY ranked up unit they never die, even when they dont have a flanker, they just kill so much. Against daemons, although they are likely to take more wounds (although i would be very surprised if they take more than one wound) daemons generally don't have the +3 ranks to scare you.

2 varghulfs i think would rip apart most daemons, and with S5 hatred, be equally good at herald sniping, seeing as daemons really do rely on their heros to make their units good, slamming 10 S5 hatred attacks into one should end your problems pretty quickly.


atm im fielding 2 wraiths with a banshee on the left side to quickly move up with a vampire or varghulf. is that a decent tactic or should i maybe add more? perhaps another escort for the march?

plus im kinda a beginning player so what are wraiths best used against? what armys should I avoid or specifically what types of units?

AVOID:
Magical close combat attacks (typically heroes and daemons)
Magic spells in general (keeping them hidden in woods is good at stopping this)
High combat resolution (e.g 3 ranks, standard, outnumber, warbanner) as these will crumble a small unit of wraiths in no time.
Skaven shooting, its ALL magical!!