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Gabacho Mk.II
06-05-2008, 05:19
Right. My High Elves are under attack by an Ogre Kingdom player. Thus, I need to put up a list that might manage to crack ogres. I have every single unit/model that they High Elves possess, but I do not wish to field a Dragon Mage because I dont wish to tie up too many points with a single model. (and am not too thrilled about a 2A, T3 flying target; rather save my 3 hero slots for actual characters)


Noble - on foot, great weapon, heavy armour, shield, and???
mage - 2nd level, seer, wand (4 spells, can choose 3)
mage - 2nd level, Beasts lore, dispel scroll ???

21 spearmen with FC
21 spearmen with FC

1 Tiranoc chariot
1 Lion chariot
18 White Lions, FC and std???
15 Swordmasters, FC and std???
9 Dragon Princes with FC

2 Great Eagles


Well, how does this sound, and does the army have a theme?

I havent played against this opponent and his Ogre Kingdoms armylist, so I dont quite know what to expect.

Any help will be appreciated! :)

Gabacho Mk.II
07-05-2008, 00:10
Ok, I assume my earlier list was way too good for anyone to comment.:D




Well, this is what I plan to field in a few days-

Noble on foot, with great weapon, heavy armour, shield
2nd level mage with Silver Wand (High Magic)
2nd level mage w/seerstaff (Lore of Light: Dazzling Brightness, Guardian Light)

21 spearmen with full command
21 spearmen with full command
21 spearmen with full command

Tiranoc chariot
White Lion chariot
9 Dragon Princes with full command and Lion Std
15 Swordmasters with full command and Banner of Sorcery

2 Great Eagles

9 units ................... 7-9 PD....... 4DD



Again, thoughts?:evilgrin:

Dwarf Runelord 45
07-05-2008, 00:23
Ahem not a Elf player and I dont know how many points a Elf bolt thrower is but a dwarf one easily makes up its points when it kills 1 ogre.

Marwynn
07-05-2008, 02:33
An Elven RBT costs more than twice that of the Dwarven one.

Now onto the list...

I'm assuming that this is not a 2K army in that there are no lord choices available?

Okay, the Heroes:
- Noble on foot seems a bit... lacking. What's he there for? He's not the BSB, he has no Magical items of any kind... he's not doing anything.
- L2 with Silver Wand. Okay he has 3 spells from High Magic, great supporter. What do you do when you get Curse of Arrow Attraction?
- Second L2: Doable as support.

Overall they need some gear in there. Some scrolls, a magic item or armour, etc.

Core:
21 Spears with Full Command. I'm assuming each character goes in one of these... You're gonna be busy castin Shield of Sapphery and other defensive spells as these guys are gonna get shot at fast.

You need a BSB to support these guys.

Specials:
Tiranoc, White Lion Chariots - Okay. It depends on what you like of course.

9 Dragon Princes - Full Command is a waste. Lion Standard is good. Drop the Champion at least. Also, it's way too large. Dropping 3 would free up enough points to gear up your characters.

15 Sword Masters - Typically they're taken at 7 and 12. 15 is good but they're just as vulnerable to shooting as the Spears. And since many people fear Sword Masters more than Spears these guys are gonna get perforated with every kind of projectile imaginable.

Then again you could easily screen them.

I would suggest cutting it down to 12.

If you want to keep the Champions in the DP unit give him some Magical items... like the Amulet of Light. That oughta let them charge Fear-causers which are sometimes woundable only with Magical attacks.

The two Great Eagles are alright.


My main criticism - For a Spear-heavy force you need some heavier elite infantry support, using them as flankers. Also, while you have two Chariots and two Eagles I think you're still lacking in terms of harassment, but that may just be me.

You need to gear up your Heroes. A dispel scroll for each Mage, and the Armour of Caledor (or turning the noble into a BSB) or both, wouldn't be amiss. Also consider the Ring of Fury instead (and Dragon Armour for the Noble). That'll let you fire off the Fury of Khaine spell which could slip through or draw out dispel scrolls/dice, letting you cast your spells more reliably/

A bit lacking in shooting... I guess the Tiranoc has a bow. That's it. The point against that is that you'll have a harder time dealing with Fast Cav and such. I guess the Chariots and go haring off for that, but that means they're not smashing and supporting your Spear blocks.

I commend your Spear-heavy list though!

Dwarf Runelord 45
07-05-2008, 02:53
An Elven RBT costs more than twice that of the Dwarven one.

:wtf: No way that absoulutly sucks... my bad.

WhiteKnight
07-05-2008, 03:56
Alright here's my advice.


Noble should be equiped with either a barded steed and in the Dps or on foot with armour of caledor and a great weapon or halberd. Here's my usual noble on foot.

Noble - Halberd, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix = 139 pt

Good in combat and will wound on 2's on average.

Mages should be decked out a bit more. add some dispel scrolls and maybe do this. 2 lv 2 mages and 1 archmage at lv 4. Give 1 mage the annulian crystal and the other 2 dispel scrolls and silver wand. The Archmage should have Sigil of Asuryan, ring of Fury, and a dispel scroll. The mages can dispel easily and you can dish out more spells easily.

The core is solid and I like it.

Instead of 1 Tiranoc chariot and 1 lion chariot, go for 2 lion chariots or 3 tiranoc chariots. I prefer lion chariots but it's up to you.

The Dragon Princes should be at 5-6 never 9. I only give command if I need a magic banner like Standard of Balance.

Swordmasters could be made to 14 or 18. I use 14 in 1000-2k games and 18 in 2250+ so I get a good rank bonus. Remeber, more attacks = only champion attacks against you.

Your rare choices need to be revamped. Great Eagles are good for war machines and characters. Bolt Throwers would cause so much more damage to ogres with a single shot and maybe even a volley. Once they get into short range, cast Curse of Arrow Attraction and watch them ogres die. Recommended that at least 2 mages get the spell.

Gabacho Mk.II
07-05-2008, 05:13
Great feedback gentlemen.


Well, our campaign battles are at 1,999pts, so no lord characters.


I plan to field a Noble mainly due to his Ld 9, thats about it. I do however need some form of protection on him, so dropping a few Dragon Princes would work (maybe even the champion as well?).

This upcoming battle will be a defensive one for me (I only need to score a draw or better in order to retain my province), thus I do not need to be overly aggressive, whatever that means.:chrome:

However, I have played against this opponent before, but he wasnt running Ogre Kingdoms before. (he ran Empire iirc, been a whiles) Thus, I am sorta afraid that he might actually field 3 Butchers, or, on the flipside, he might not take a single Butcher which would certainly aid me quite a bit!

As to my core choices, I certainly want to have enough units around (with combat resolution) in order to provide some combat support with the charging chariots/Dragon Princes. Though I still believe that I might be fielding too many spearmen. ???

Lastly, the only reason that I am taking Swordmasters is that I heard through channels that my opponent is unbelievably afraid of these guys, which might buy me enough time to better angle my shock troops (chariots, DP's) and get off some brilliant charges here and there... enough to punch a hole in his line and somehow put him on the defensive. (again, I am gaming a defensive battle, so I dont want to take too many risks here, which sounds odd coming from a HE player!) :angel:





You guys are correct I believe. I do need a bound item or two, better mage items, maybe an additional chariot.... we will see.

Thanks for the posts!!! :cool:

Gabacho Mk.II
07-05-2008, 05:20
Oh, and I am taking two Eagles in case I may need to contest corners late in the game if the battle results become tight... also, these are the only units that I wish to spend points on for march blocking due to my bad luck rolls with Reavers. (dont ask) ;)



I dont know, I somehow see this force to be able to win the battle if we roll and get a Contact scenario or a Capture the Pass scenario. If the scenario ends up being a Rush battle, Diagonal March or (Gods forbid!) an Ambush scenario, then the High Elves are toast!

Oh, forgot to mention; he uses upwards of 9 or more Leadbelchers (I believe that is what they are termed). And I am honestly frightened of these guys, especially if I cant get into H2H with them....

mutter...mutter...mutter...

:p

highway45
07-05-2008, 05:37
Alright here's my advice.


Noble should be equiped with either a barded steed and in the Dps or on foot with armour of caledor and a great weapon or halberd. Here's my usual noble on foot.

Noble - Halberd, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix = 139 pt

Good in combat and will wound on 2's on average.

Mages should be decked out a bit more. add some dispel scrolls and maybe do this. 2 lv 2 mages and 1 archmage at lv 4. Give 1 mage the annulian crystal and the other 2 dispel scrolls and silver wand. The Archmage should have Sigil of Asuryan, ring of Fury, and a dispel scroll. The mages can dispel easily and you can dish out more spells easily.

The core is solid and I like it.

Instead of 1 Tiranoc chariot and 1 lion chariot, go for 2 lion chariots or 3 tiranoc chariots. I prefer lion chariots but it's up to you.

The Dragon Princes should be at 5-6 never 9. I only give command if I need a magic banner like Standard of Balance.

Swordmasters could be made to 14 or 18. I use 14 in 1000-2k games and 18 in 2250+ so I get a good rank bonus. Remeber, more attacks = only champion attacks against you.

Your rare choices need to be revamped. Great Eagles are good for war machines and characters. Bolt Throwers would cause so much more damage to ogres with a single shot and maybe even a volley. Once they get into short range, cast Curse of Arrow Attraction and watch them ogres die. Recommended that at least 2 mages get the spell.

why take halberd over two hander if you are on foot?

Marwynn
07-05-2008, 06:58
Hmm I have no idea... points conservation? But it's only 2 points and quite worth it at that.

The Noble's Ld9 is all well and good, but turning him into a BSB would be far more beneficial. Especially with that many Spear blocks.

You can also choose to use your Spears as LSG if you want. Yeah you're left with roughly two blocks compared to one, however you have a very flexible core troop there. I've been experimenting with a block of 20 deployed 10,5,5. You don't often get the full effect of all the spears but I was trying to see if the 10 stand-n-shoot reaction was worth the loss of a rank.

But I think your Spears can do well enough. Just need some maneuvering elements to let you break apart the enemy lines, and your Eagles can do that.

Are you deploying the Spearelves 7x3? That would be fairly fearsome.

WhiteKnight
07-05-2008, 14:12
why take halberd over two hander if you are on foot?

On an average score for toughness, most units have T 3 and I will hit on 2's anyway. And it's still -2 to armor so if they have a 5+, no armour but heavy cav will have 4+ but still, you can have a bad dice roll and have them all die.

Oh and Great Eagles cannot contest corners, they aren't unit strength 5 only 3 because of they're base.

Gabacho Mk.II
07-05-2008, 16:27
The Noble's Ld9 is all well and good, but turning him into a BSB would be far more beneficial. Especially with that many Spear blocks.


Hmmm, sounds doable. However, I will then have to make one of mages the army general. :eyebrows:







I've been experimenting with a block of 20 deployed 10,5,5. You don't often get the full effect of all the spears but I was trying to see if the 10 stand-n-shoot reaction was worth the loss of a rank.



Am sorta confused as to your unit setup here. Are you saying that you deploy your unti of 20 LSG with a frontage of 10 models, with the second and third rank having only 5 models each?

The reason that I ask is that I dont believe that you are allowed to deploy a unit in this manner. Must look at the rulebook again when I get home.







Are you deploying the Spearelves 7x3? That would be fairly fearsome.

Yes, that was the intention. But I might have to go with a frontage of 5 or even 6 models if I skim back on the size of the unit to pay for other items/units.










Oh and Great Eagles cannot contest corners, they aren't unit strength 5 only 3 because of they're base.


Oh my, you are right.... I guess the eagle will take to the field and try to frustrate and march block. 50pts aint that bad of an expenditure.

Marwynn
07-05-2008, 18:08
Sorry my bad, that's 15-20 LSG. So it's 10/5 or 10/10. Typing late at night does that. Only the last rank has 5 models if at all possible.

Gabacho Mk.II
07-05-2008, 18:36
That's fine, that is what I thought you meant. ;)


Althought I still have trouble fielding LSG for any reason. I just cant get meself around the notion that a unit with 13pt T3 models will actually make enough of a contribution to a stand up fight.

Marwynn
07-05-2008, 18:46
Well it depends what they're used for really. They can guard RBTs surprisingly well. Or form the backbone of smaller-point armies which I'm mostly interested in.

They're not the best for sure, and they get slaughtered just like Elves usually are. But at least they were useful at some point in the fight before their deaths.

If you're centred around Spears and don't wanna bother with shooting then no the LSG have no room in your list. That's quite fine. In fact they're hard to justify even in Big Blocks. Typically they are just used as RBT guards; they shoot the fast cav who'll have to deal with a Spear-block too.

And in small points games they're nice. Their versatility comes in when you're not focused so much on a lot of infantry oddly enough.

Spyro35
08-05-2008, 02:36
I actually recently played against my friend's OK army at 2000 points. I would say just make sure to deny his impact hits, which can be quite easily done. I fielded 2 units of 10 Swordmasters and they did well. The RBTs weren't very useful imo. Lastly, I'd say the game breaking reason why I massacured him was because of my Prince on Star Dragon. I personally dont think you need the prince there if you just want Ld 9. I would almost be more tempted to field another mage and give him lore of fire. I dont think light does that significantly well against OKs.

Btw, your friend WILL field Butchers. Its almost like an unwritten rule for OKs that you must field Butchers, otherwise they just get slaughtered from all ranged attacks, including magic and shooting. Watch for trollguts and let him come to you. When hes within close range, just move up so he can't impact hit you and let him come to you. Just keep blasting with magic. Good luck!

Gabacho Mk.II
08-05-2008, 05:53
Thanks for the info.

I am actually looking at taking the Phoenix Guard special character (the one with MR3, 4+Ward, D3 wounds against US2 models, forgot his name) and two 2nd level mages. I too believe that there will be at least one if not two Butchers in the battle.

The final HE armylist is still not finalized yet.

[and I would have fielded a Mage Dragon, if I wasnt too worried about his Butchers...]

Marwynn
08-05-2008, 07:00
You mean Caradryan? Yeah he's a solid fella, getting a lot of good press lately.

Gabacho Mk.II
08-05-2008, 14:54
You mean Caradryan? Yeah he's a solid fella, getting a lot of good press lately.


Yup, that guy. :D

He does D3 wounds per hit at S5, causes Fear (so that at least his unit wont freeze or run from Terror causers), and has MR3. !

Besides, I have yet to field a special character so far, why not now?
:cheese:


I will post my final list before the battle. (hopefully).



Lastly, I am going to take pictures of the battle and post a batrep after the whole craziness. Hope you guys like reading batreps. :evilgrin:

Gabacho Mk.II
11-05-2008, 01:23
Final list:

Caradryan 175pts
2nd lev mage with Annulian Crystal & Silver Wand 185pts
2nd lev mage with Seerstaff 165pts
[525pts characters]

21 Spearmen with full command 214pts
21 Spearmen with full command 214pts
13 Spearmen 117pts
[545pts Core]

2 Tiranoc chariots 170pts
1 White Lion chariot 140pts
6 Dragon Prince with musician and standard, Lion Standard 235pts
17 Swordmasters with full command and Banner of Sorcery 335pts
[880pts Special]

1 Great Eagle 50pts
[50pts Rare]
[50pts]



Total 2,000pts......... 9 units, 3 characters, 7-9 PD and 5DD.




Wish me luck!:skull:

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2008, 06:34
Long live Ulthuan!



Right. A very hard fight for both of us in this battle. The battle took about 4 hours to resolve as we rolled a Contact scenario which could last 5-7 rounds, and he rolled a 5 on his D3 roll, thus the battle lasted a total of 7 rounds. :mad:




My opponent fielded the following units-

- 2 Bruisers, both w/magic items, his army general (the only one that I fought against) had a Tenderiser. (sp?)

- Butcher w/Dispel Scroll and Bangstick

- 3 units of 3 Bulls with bellowers

- 1 unit of 4 Bulls with full command

- 2 units of 4 Ironguts with full command

- 1 unit of 13 Trappers

- 3 units of 20 Gnoblars

- 1 unit of 4 Leadbelchers

- Slavegiant


By the end of the 7th round, the Ogres had the following units remaining:
3 units of Gnoblars, 1 unit of 3 bulls, unit of 4 Leadbelchers, Bruiser, 1 unit of 2 bulls. Everything else was killed.

High Elf losses:
1 Tiranoc chariot, 1 White Lion Chariot, 1/2 of Swordmasters, 1 unit of 21 Spearmen, 1/2 of unit of 13 Spearmen, Great Eagle.



Results - A Massacre for the High Elves, 1560pts+ vs 814pts.... High Elves retain their province for the Summer season, Year 1.






Batrep to follow.

Marwynn
12-05-2008, 14:59
Sweet. I like the updated list too.

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2008, 15:40
Last thing to add-

Caradryan and his depleted unit of Swordmasters (down to 4 models at the end!) ended up chewing through 4 Ironguts with general, unit of 3 bulls, unit of 4 bulls with command, and cleaved the butcher into 26 different pieces.

Caradryan made several 4+ saves (5 saves IIRC) against H2H hits versus the ogre general, as he was involved in a nasty, multi-unit combat for 2 rounds. Finally, with a unit of 21 spearmen lending their weight in a flank charge, the High Elves were able to shatter the ogre battleline and pursue the ogres for the remainder of the battle.

Other notes of interest;
1> Guardian Light, coupled with ASF, is one hell of a combination! High Elves that do not run, are able to declare and complete charges without worrying about psychology is one absolute winner. Dont underestimate the Seerstaff and its potential of granting a great amount of comfort for the HE player...

2> White Lion chariots that charge and make contact are worth gold! Enough said about this point I believe.

3> Dragon Princes are over-rated in the last 3 games that I fielded them. In this battle, they arrived on turn 4, did nothing other than lend some weight against a multi-united HE charge against an Irongut unit containing the Butcher, and actually managed to lose a single model due to Gnoblar sharp-stuff missile fire! Pathetic!:mad:

4> Caradryan, against multi-wounded models, is king! Period. :evilgrin: