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Lordmonkey
06-05-2008, 22:03
During the first round of combat, who decides what weapons their troops will use first? I ask because it's possible to react to your enemies choice with choices of your own.

Example:

My unit is equipped with shields, heavy armour, hand weapons and great weapons. They charge a unit of enemy soldiers equipped with spears, hand weapons, light armour and shields.

If I choose to use great weapons, i increase my chance to wound, reduce the enemy save, but also reduce my own save. In response, the enemy may then choose to use spears, since equipping hand weapons and shields may be pointless versus great weapons.

On the other hand, i may elect to use hand weapons, anticipating the inevitable return attacks from the spears. In response, my enemy may choose to do the same, mitigating damage. Or, he may not.

So who chooses first? Or is it all done simultaneously?

**EDIT** FYI, I can't find any definition in the BRB. In the weapons section, under Weapons and units:

"At the start of the first turn of a combat, each such unit can choose which of their weapons to use."

That's the best i can find :(

Milney
06-05-2008, 22:09
As far as I'm aware it's done when you roll the dice.

So whoever strikes first, declares first. Then the 'defender' declares what he's using when he's rolling his saves.

After that you're obliged to continue using the same equipment.

Of course this is just my interpretation, I can't find anything one way or another to decide what order you declare (or when).

Lordmonkey
06-05-2008, 22:11
That's what i thought, but then i saw this:

"At the start of the first turn of a combat, each such unit can choose which of their weapons to use."

So i guess that isn't right :(

Milney
06-05-2008, 22:12
Hmmm, intriguing. Will have a dig around and see what I can find

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2008, 22:16
I'm fairly certain this question doesn't actually have a direct answer in the rulebook. Most people just go ahead and use the "whoever strikes first declares first" convention, which usually means the charger declares before the chargee. And situations where it even comes up aren't all that common, anyway.

Lordmonkey
06-05-2008, 22:27
I think common sense would indicate that the charger would declare first. IMO the chargers are not feasably going to switch weapons at the last second after seeing what the enemy are using. The chargee would then see what they are going to try and kill them with and respond accordingly.

Of course, this isn't RAW :rolleyes:

Crazy Harborc
06-05-2008, 23:39
As near as I can remember since I started with 3rd Edition.......The attacker/charger has declared first.

Except for "official games/tournies and what not".....whatever sounds good for the opponents can work.;)

Darktheos
07-05-2008, 02:29
My thinking would be the Attacker declares weapon before the first attack and Defender decares at the first armor save or attack if no armor save is needed.

xragg
07-05-2008, 02:36
Both declare before any dice are rolled. The defender isnt awarded the luxury of knowing how many wounds he has to save before deciding if he wants to use hw/shd or GW.

Whichever unit is going first, but this is more of tradition from older editions and not in the current rulebook.

IronBrother
07-05-2008, 02:46
Attacker picks weaponry, defender picks weaponry, and then you roll the dice. That is the way I have always played it.

T10
07-05-2008, 07:25
That's what i thought, but then i saw this:

"At the start of the first turn of a combat, each such unit can choose which of their weapons to use."

So i guess that isn't right :(

The rules merely tell us when to chose the weapons each unit will use and does not go into greater detail. This is obviously a kind of rock-paper-scissors minigame where knowing what your opponent is going to do before you commit yourself puts you at an advantage: If he choses great weapons, you'll choose handweapons and shields. If he chooses handweapons and shields you'll chose halberds.

Resolve this in any way you find to be fair or efficient, be it a dice-off, attacker first, making a secret note or merely blurting it out in panic as the enemy is crashing into your units.

I guess I use the latter a lot.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
07-05-2008, 09:16
1) *Both* players must declare their choice of weapons *at some time* when the first combat is fought.
The unit striking first must declare *before resolving attacks*.
The unit being struck must declare *before the saves corresponding to the above attacks* are taken.

2) Exactly how long 'before' is not stipulated by the rules, so players are at liberty to divulge at the very last necessary moment. They could state their choice at the start of the 1st turn of the battle if they want to.

One important addition:

3) The new FAQs for Empire has further muddied the waters for the phrase "turn of combat" in their clumsy attempt to clarify a specific situation.

EvC
07-05-2008, 10:28
Just have whomever strikes first say what they're using, then the defender declare what they're using. Simple, effective, fair- and of course, not in the rulebook :)

Toonces
07-05-2008, 18:46
Does this happen before Impact Hits?

If I had Black Orcs with shields get charged by a chariot, would a declaration of HW/Choppa + Shield be allowed before impact hits and save me against said impact hits?

Which I guess brings me to another newb question... does the HW + Shield bonus work vs. impact hits... they are in close combat (even if they're worked out before 'ordinary' close combat attacks...)

Ethlorien
07-05-2008, 19:30
I've always played attacker picks first, defender picks (reacts) second. It makes sense to me and my gaming group. If a charging unti is coming at you, chances are, they've got their weapons and out at the ready. It would be funny though to see a block of soldiers barreling down on their enemies still discussing what they shoudl wield in combat.

Better yet is the image of the two units meeting and then working out who's using what.
'Right, so I'm gonna go in for a little sword and shield work, hear?'
'Aye, then it'll be spear for me and the lads.'
'Good, then lets have at her!'
'Indeed!'
Fight begins.

Anaris
08-05-2008, 09:18
If it really isn't in the rulebook and their isn't a precedent for it either, why not agree with your opponents to note in down on scrap paper, in secret and then declare to one another at the start of the combat.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2008, 09:44
Does this happen before Impact Hits?

If I had Black Orcs with shields get charged by a chariot, would a declaration of HW/Choppa + Shield be allowed before impact hits and save me against said impact hits?

Which I guess brings me to another newb question... does the HW + Shield bonus work vs. impact hits... they are in close combat (even if they're worked out before 'ordinary' close combat attacks...)

The hand weapon and sheild bonus works vs impact hits.(assuming those impact hits were caused to the front of the unit of course)
Impact hits are resolved during combat, they just go before any blows are actually struck.

As for declaring what weapon's you want to use.
As soon as you need to use them, you declare what you are using. That seems to work fine.
I guess you could secretly declare what you are wanting to use at the start of the combat and then reveal at the same time to be 100% fair.