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AMP187
07-05-2008, 03:24
Hey guys, over my 1 1/2 of playing WHF I've noticed people using derogatory terms for various armies. Of course, we all know of "cheesy" armies or "beardy" armies but there is another type of army I've heard talk of over time.

"Point and click" or "plug and play" armies. Obviously this is meant to be an insult to an army or its playstyle, but honestly I'm not quite sure what it means. I've heard it applied to armies as different as Bretonnians to Wood Elves. Can anyone explain what armies or what traits about them people consider "point and click"?

My main army in WHF is Skaven, but I also play Hordes of Chaos and recently I've started Daemons of Chaos. Well, I'm just guessing because of the inherent randomness of the army that Skaven would not be considered "point and click" but do yall consider Hordes/Daemons plug and play? I gotta' say, if there's a large amount of negative feedback regarding Daemons it would really turn me off from starting them.

Admiral Samuel Eden
07-05-2008, 03:46
I believe, this term means an army that you simply deploy and charge, without much thought and because its so hard and nasty, It'll flatten the enemy.
You point it in the right direction and let the loose or click. They slaughter the enemy army and you win without skill. Hordes of Chaos armies that use loads of knights of Khorne come under this category but really its just people complaining when they should just get over it.

sulla
07-05-2008, 05:16
The problem is pitched battles rather than lists. If you couldn't win a game simply by killing the mostest... in fact if the casualties caused weren't even considered, but a discrete set of goals existed for each army, we would not even have these discussions every couple of weeks. If you ran equal risk of having to guard your own deployment area or reach the enemy's zone or hunt characters etc to win, army design would be a lot more all rounded than it is right now.

My humble opinion anyway.

Admiral Samuel Eden
07-05-2008, 07:47
And a very fair one it is Sulla.

Rikkjourd
07-05-2008, 09:10
Point and click armies are not necessarily harder to beat. If something is the obvious tactic it may become somewhat of a one trick pony unless you use variety. Like Bretonnian knights for example, you know they will move first turn, second turn they often charge whatever is in their way. And we all know Bretonnian knights are not unbeatable, they are just really good at charging. So even if a bunch of bret busses are dangerous and can be called a point-and-click army, they are also quite predictable.

brettmarc
07-05-2008, 11:33
i always play that type of army and find that it has work most times

skank
07-05-2008, 11:59
Gunlines are the ultimate point+click, he knows what he's going to do, so do you. It's the list rather than specific army IMO.

Agreed, missions rather than pitched battles would solve a lot.

D-Archangel
07-05-2008, 13:13
I always considered "point 'n click" armies as the ones where you don't have to worry to much about manouvering unit. they just charge (almost) straight forward, and you don't have to worry about anything else too much.

take for instance brets, with loads of cavalry. high movement means they will mostly get the charge, and lance formation goes a long way to breaking or killing the opponents unit, so you don't have to worry too much about possible flank charges and all the intricate movement.


that's my opinion anyway, but let me get one thing straight. those armies can be very fun to play with, and it get's a lot more interesting if you use one of those armies against mobile forces such as WE or DE.

Andrew Luke
07-05-2008, 15:43
Pegasus flying circus, Tzeentch Flying Circus, Bloodcrushers and a BT, Twin-linked Varghulfs, All-tree Wood Elves. These are all point and click. If you have enough dexterity to pick up and move the model and let the dice fall out of the cup, you can win games with these armies.

DDogwood
07-05-2008, 15:46
Gunlines are the ultimate point+click, he knows what he's going to do, so do you. It's the list rather than specific army IMO.


I agree with this. Playing against a gunline is not much different than playing solo.

Johnnyfrej
07-05-2008, 21:14
The problem is pitched battles rather than lists. If you couldn't win a game simply by killing the mostest... in fact if the casualties caused weren't even considered, but a discrete set of goals existed for each army, we would not even have these discussions every couple of weeks. If you ran equal risk of having to guard your own deployment area or reach the enemy's zone or hunt characters etc to win, army design would be a lot more all rounded than it is right now.

The exact same reason I like 40k more than Fantasy. Fantasy is just killing the enemy, 40k is killing the enemy while doing missions and goals.

the_raptor
07-05-2008, 21:29
The exact same reason I like 40k more than Fantasy. Fantasy is just killing the enemy, 40k is killing the enemy while doing missions and goals.

Right, because 90% of games in shops aren't Cleanse? Even in tournaments here far to many of the rounds are played as Cleanse or Cleanse with minor variations (ooohh Dusk and Dawn).

40k only gets interesting when you have missions and objectives, and I am glad it looks like they are doing away with the stupidity of Cleanse in the new edition.

Lord of Skulls
07-05-2008, 21:41
Right, because 90% of games in shops aren't Cleanse?
Err... No?

We usually roll for missions as the Book specifies...
And besides, the Cleanse Mission is all about getting into your opponents deployment zone, as that's worth the most points.

On topic I do agree that some more missions for Fantasy, with more emphasis on movement in some, would help greatly.

Fanfan
08-05-2008, 00:26
I gotta' say, if there's a large amount of negative feedback regarding Daemons it would really turn me off from starting them.

Please, do as you will. Even if this means basing your life on what people think of you. Really, I encourage you to follow your instinc of following others' ideas and point of views.:wtf:

javaguru
08-05-2008, 00:44
I liked the idea of mission cards from 2nd edition 40k. Have six cards for each player and each picks a card before deployment with their "secret orders."

Here are some examples off the top of my head.
Assassinate- extra VP's for killing the enemy general
Assault- extra VP's for units over half str in enemy deployment zone
Defend- extra vp's for defending deployment zone

Another interesting idea would be to add weather. Most results would be clear but you could have heavy rain which would hurt shooting -1 hit, halve cannonball bounce and reduce the speed of cavalry by 1". Heavy fog that would limit "sight range" for charging and shooting to 18" for the first two turns...etc.

Finally, a terrain generator that de-emphasizes hills for more diverse terrain.

The kind of stuff you can't "theoryhammer" into army builds and real commanders have to deal with.

Ipeninrod
08-05-2008, 00:53
To me Point and click armies are the 1 trick pony lists. The army is geared around one method to win. So games turn into a quagmire of what army can grind out their trick better.
Gun Lines
Mage Hammer
Heavy Cav
Flying Circuses
Monster Mash
Some beat others quite easily so games often can be decided by rock paper scissors!

You want a sharp learning curve play TK or DE or OK. DE might get better soon and maybe the running jokes about DE players will finally end.
P.S. I don't play DE I just feel there pain.

Lordmonkey
08-05-2008, 04:34
Saying Daemons are "point and click" is the same as saying The Middle East is "Iraq". We hear about the latter all the time, but theres a greater level of depth to the former.

In other words, it's (probably) entirely *possible* to make a simple, WAAC, one-shot-sniper rifle-with-rocket-propelled-bullets Daemon army. But it's also easily possible to make any kind of playstyle, and theres certainly enough flexibility within the book to allow that.

For the record, there isn't a list that this doesn't apply to.

Except Ogre Kingdoms.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-05-2008, 05:08
Right, because 90% of games in shops aren't Cleanse? Even in tournaments here far to many of the rounds are played as Cleanse or Cleanse with minor variations (ooohh Dusk and Dawn).

Because the experience you've had in your shop applies to everyone's.

Andrew Luke
09-05-2008, 18:10
Wel whats funny about deamons is it is almost hard NOT to take a hard build. Any Nurgle list with epidemius is rock hard, any list with banner of sundering is a total gimp to your opponent, and any list with decked out Greater Deamons is really easy to play. I will have to say if balance and tactical challenge are what you are looking for, look for something other than daemons...

shartmatau
09-05-2008, 18:29
I will have to say if balance and tactical challenge are what you are looking for, look for something other than daemons...

Thats an overstatement if i ever saw one. The truth is that Demons are a glass hammer army. They have elite units that are fairly specialized, with no real screening units, 5+ saves, and very little magic defense. They pack a punch and lack staying power, losing a unit will really hurt the whole army.
Frankly I think they are going to be pretty hard to play well against horde armies and other elite armies that are faster or heavy on magic. But thats just my opinion.

Urgat
09-05-2008, 19:47
Well I got to admit daemons don't nearly scare me as much as VC. Bring them any day :p

For me, point and click applies mainly to cavalry heavy armies and gunlines. You just pickj your targets, and charge/shoot them to death, without any thoughts for strategies.
And, to agree with everybody else, I think the problem is the pitched battle, not the army lists. Throwing in objectives to hold (like in that huge greenskins/empire battle report last month) or even, heck, this month's 40k report, would go a long way to make things a bit more interesting.

WillFightForFood
09-05-2008, 21:22
Using the scenarios in the back of the 6th edition book helps tremendously with balance. So does random terrain generation.

SlaaneshSlave
09-05-2008, 21:37
The exact same reason I like 40k more than Fantasy. Fantasy is just killing the enemy, 40k is killing the enemy while doing missions and goals.
Interesting. I'm almost 100% opposite of you. Almost.

I have found 40K to be the best example of Point and Click.

Before the most recent 40K Chaos Codex I decided to try out 40K. My question was how few Marines do I have to buy to run a 40K CSM army?

Answer: 2 boxes.

So, I had 2 minimum sized units of noise marines summoning 4-6 units of Slaaneshy Demons.

I still don't understand 40K. Barely know the rules. No clue of the strategies. But I have never lost a game with that army. I didn't even feel I had much to do with what was going on.

I'd summon the demon unit. They would charge the nearest unit. That unit would die (30 rending attacks per turn is nice). I'd then consolidate towards the next unit & find myself in combat again.

Rinse. Repeat.

My only decision was "which is the next nearest enemy". Somehow those wins never made me feel like I was a genius of 40K. Just made me want to go back to square bases.

Johnnyfrej
11-05-2008, 01:59
Interesting. I'm almost 100% opposite of you. Almost.

I have found 40K to be the best example of Point and Click.

Before the most recent 40K Chaos Codex I decided to try out 40K. My question was how few Marines do I have to buy to run a 40K CSM army?

Answer: 2 boxes.

So, I had 2 minimum sized units of noise marines summoning 4-6 units of Slaaneshy Demons.

I still don't understand 40K. Barely know the rules. No clue of the strategies. But I have never lost a game with that army. I didn't even feel I had much to do with what was going on.

I'd summon the demon unit. They would charge the nearest unit. That unit would die (30 rending attacks per turn is nice). I'd then consolidate towards the next unit & find myself in combat again.

Rinse. Repeat.

My only decision was "which is the next nearest enemy". Somehow those wins never made me feel like I was a genius of 40K. Just made me want to go back to square bases.
You make some valid points. But I have two questions for you.
1.) You say 40k is point and click. Were you just playing to kill the opponent's army or were you doing missions like you are technically supposed to(rules say at start of battle roll for mission with d6).
2.) You say you purchased 2 boxes of Chaos Marines. Good choice, Chaos Marines were my first 40k army (I played Black Legion, but I digress). However, you say you summoned "Slannash" demons from Noise Marines. I assume you are refering to Daemonettes. The problem with that is CSM cannot take God-specific daemons anymore, only "generic lesser daemons". Therefore you shouldn't have gotten '30 rending attacks'.

40k isn't for everybody. Some people like fantasy, some people like 40k, some people like both (me). But if you are going to say something like 40k is point and click without fully experiencing the game you really shouldn't be making those kinds of judgements.

edit: scratch second reason, missed the part of "before new chaos codex"

AMP187
11-05-2008, 02:09
You make some valid points. But I have two questions for you.
1.) You say 40k is point and click. Were you just playing to kill the opponent's army or were you doing missions like you are technically supposed to(rules say at start of battle roll for mission with d6).
2.) You say you purchased 2 boxes of Chaos Marines. Good choice, Chaos Marines were my first 40k army (I played Black Legion, but I digress). However, you say you summoned "Slannash" demons from Noise Marines. I assume you are refering to Daemonettes. The problem with that is CSM cannot take God-specific daemons anymore, only "generic lesser daemons". Therefore you shouldn't have gotten '30 rending attacks'.

40k isn't for everybody. Some people like fantasy, some people like 40k, some people like both (me). But if you are going to say something like 40k is point and click without fully experiencing the game you really shouldn't be making those kinds of judgements.

He said "Slaaneshy", and I'm gonna' have to agree that 40K is a game of nothing but point-and-click armies :P

xragg
11-05-2008, 03:26
I dont want to keep it off topic, but how do you have 30 rending attacks? Actually any rending attacks? CSM dont have any rending attacks in their whole army. But anyway, I agree that 40k is a much less strategic game. Granted, 40k uses more scenarios, but only because people choose to play them. Fantasy has just as much opportunity for scenarios/objectives. Its just that the average fantasy game never uses them. We keep a book of every scenario we ever see and use that to roll for random games. It really makes you bring a more balanced force when you have to be prepared for almost anything.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-05-2008, 04:05
What part of "Before the most recent 40K Chaos Codex..." was too complicated for you guys? :p

Johnnyfrej
11-05-2008, 20:52
He said "Slaaneshy", and I'm gonna' have to agree that 40K is a game of nothing but point-and-click armies :P

But anyway, I agree that 40k is a much less strategic game. Granted, 40k uses more scenarios, but only because people choose to play them. Fantasy has just as much opportunity for scenarios/objectives. Its just that the average fantasy game never uses them. We keep a book of every scenario we ever see and use that to roll for random games. It really makes you bring a more balanced force when you have to be prepared for almost anything.
'Bout what I expected for posting on the Fantasy Forum.


What part of "Before the most recent 40K Chaos Codex..." was too complicated for you guys? :p
Updated my post, thanks for correction. I must have missed it.

SlaaneshSlave
11-05-2008, 21:07
I'm no pro in 40K. I am sure there is more to it than I experienced.

My point was 2 CSM summoning max sized units of Demonettes WAS a point and click army. Was SO point and click, I didn't even have to learn the game to win. I can't think of a better example. It just happens to be a 40K army. And a out of date one at that!

baphomael
13-05-2008, 00:36
I'm no pro in 40K. I am sure there is more to it than I experienced.

My point was 2 CSM summoning max sized units of Demonettes WAS a point and click army. Was SO point and click, I didn't even have to learn the game to win. I can't think of a better example. It just happens to be a 40K army. And a out of date one at that!

No good rounds of enemy first turn shooting wiping out the icons? I always found that army was a double edged sword - it could either do really well, or all your icons would die and thus giving you no way to summon the daemons.