PDA

View Full Version : 2250 points of daemons, Neknoh takes a sip from the challice of chaos



Neknoh
08-05-2008, 04:55
After having gotten ahold of the new Daemon book yesterday to see what all the fuss was about, I got enchanted by the new Lores as well as some of the new units etc.

However, I appear to be suffering from the same thing I did when I first started Hordes of Chaos; the "I want that, and that, and that, and that" syndrome. Having narrowed the list down a bit into a slightly more manageable chunk, I've come to realise, I have yet to add characters, and, as far as my mathemathical skills have taken me, I get the points of the list to approximately:

1436 points

This basically leaves 800 points for Characters. Now, I have to decide between Tzeentch and Slaanesh, although, it would be possible to get a greater Daemon of each and change in between games, I still want a primary unit. Nurgle is tempting, however, it feels to be the no-brainer choice of the new book, and as such, I am shying away from using the typical "Great Unclean one w. mucho magic and Nurgling Infestation+The Tallyman" lists which I foresee in the not so distant future.

Now, onto the list itself... I'm a good rambler, aren't I :p


20 Pink Horrors
- The Changeling, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Change... 343 points
This is the most expensive of all the units in the list and very susceptible to shooting, and as a result, it will not really hang back. The Changeling as well as the Banner is a very good reason of moving this unit forward at full pace, especially with them being lvl 2's and knowing the "zap everyone arround" spell (name elludes me atm.)

14 Daemonettes
- Full Command, Siren Standard... 223 points
15 attacks from the front rank, standard 12" charge and no such thing as "Flee" or "Stand and shoot" makes these one nasty unit on the charge, and they should be able to get the jump on most units. If facing elves, the inclusion of a Locus would deffinately be a good idea here I think. These allong with the Pink Horrors serve as the main Anti Infantry blocks.

14 Bloodletters
- Full Command, Icon of Endless War... 223 points
Armourcracking lunatics that can get the jump on almost anything? Yes please and 'nough said.


5 Seekers of Slaanesh
- Banner, Siren Standard... 157 points
Pretty standard flanking unit, however, they can now also get the first turn jump on things such as fast cav etc.

4 Nurgling Bases
- ... 140 points
Adorable little tots with boatloads of attacks... what is not to love?


2 Bloodcrushers
- ... 140 points
These will be used as a support unit to plough into existing combats or get the jump on characters, 8 attacks aren't all too many, but when flanking or directed at a single character, they suddenly rise in power. I am thinking of going for 3 or 2 and a Herald rather than the next Rare choice

2 Beasts of Nurgle
- ... 200 points
Big, nurgley and nigh unkillable, tasty, tasty things these are. They also help uphold the balance and should be able to take fully ranked units with some luck in rolling as well. The main problem here is the ammount of points they soak, despite adding to the "Two units of every god" facet of the army, present in everything but Tzeentch (which will be main characters instead).

1443 points (in my head)


So, I need advice for how to kit out a Lord of Change and what Herald or SC Hero to go with him. Give me ideas Warseer, help me ascend. To daemonhood.

Neknoh
08-05-2008, 14:23
Ok, done some thinking, and by dropping the Beasts of Nurgle in favour of either one or two more Bloodcrushers, either 130 or 60 points will be freed up. Otherwise, it's possible to keep one Beast and add only one Bloodcrusher, giving a total of 3 crushers and 1 Beast at 30 points less than the current configuration.

I've also thought about the Daemon, and I've come to the conclusion that I'll be doing a conversion using the Nightbringer and the winged vampire, this gives me both a Herald and a Greater Daemon of either Slaanesh or Tzeentch (when all converting is done).

I have gotten these really, really mean ideas of a Keeper of Seecrets, it goes as follows:


Keeper of Seecrets
- Enrapturing Gaze, Siren Song, Soul Hunger, Soporific Musk... 550 points

Magic levels can be added without much problem, however, the really nasty part is that he doesn't really need them. She can move up into charging distance of a very important enemy knight-unit (such as Dragonprinces, Inner Cirkle Knights etc etc.) or other units as well and force a first-turn charge from the enemy unit lest it flees off the table.
What makes this unit even meaner is that he'll be striking first when charged, rerolling wounds AND forcing the unit he's fighting to test everything on their own leadership.
Also, as if though all of that wasn't enough, he's got a -4 modifier to the armoursave of the enemy and can easely catch anyone that he/she/it breaks.

As for Heralds, I'm really rather undecided on what type of Herald I want and what I want it to do. It would be sweet with a Herald of Khorne on a jugger, but also with the Blue Scribes (should I be using a GD of Tzeentch). I've basically got 800 points to put down, and with the Keeper design, that's 550 points gone, meaning 250 points left.
Now, a Herald of Khorne with a Jugger is a 150 points unit, leaving another 100 points. Meaning I could get either the Blue Scribes or The Masque or, if I swap one Beast of Nurgle for another Bloodcrusher, I could get a Herald of Slaanesh with the Many Armed Monstrosity, or with Siren Song and Musk or Gaze, giving the enemy even more forced charges that will decimate normal units.

The Tzeentchian configuration would be something like:

Lord of Change
- Power Vortex, Dark Magister, lvl 3 and 4... 640 points
Although, for the same points, I could just as well get Kairos Fateweaver which is simply a better spellcaster in general.

The Blue Scribes of Tzeentch
- ... 81 points

Herald of Tzeentch
- ... Vortex OR Corona... 145 or 140 points

The two hero choices makes for 220/226 points, coupled with the 640 of the LoC (or 625 of Fateweaver) makes for approx. 850 points, meaning I need to replace some fifty points of the list, although, it would probably work as well.

So, Slaanesh+Khorne for Heroes or pure Tzeentch? I know Slaanesh+Khorne are really, really nasty enemies, however, that's the way the new list appears to be intended to play, groups of daemons fighting together under one leader, despite the leader's allignment.

Gabacho Mk.II
08-05-2008, 15:00
...Give me ideas Warseer, help me ascend. To daemonhood.


Now then, you do realize that you are going straight to Warhammer hell for that, right???

:evilgrin:

Neknoh
09-05-2008, 09:28
I am afraid I completely missed the meaning or intentions behind that comment :p Besides, if I go to hell, it'll be easier to broker a deal with the devil for divine warhammer abillity ;) This is the first time in a looooong time that I have asked Warseer for ideas on what to do for a Fantasy army, my mortals are still going strong, this is in order to prepare for the eventual breakup between Mortals and Daemons.

Your Mum Rang
09-05-2008, 11:11
I'm in the same "I want" boat atm.

Unless your REALLY want a GD then I'd suggest staying away. Heralds to support your blocks are a must IMO. THEN you go looking for a GD.

Anyway, if you bulk up the Horrors to lvl 4, include a Lvl 2 Tzeentch Herald w/ Master of Sorcery you suddenly have a rock hard unit that will be difficult to shift (Banner of Change!) and 6 magic levels. Excellent IMO. 40 would be a nice number.

Then, as you said your Daemonettes could use a Herald. If you're gonna take more than 12 you NEED one to make your points investment do the job. The Siren Standard is all well and good but since you want these girls to have a chance, I like the Banner of Ecstasy. Anyway, a Herald. A lvl 1 Herald with Siren Song would be great. The ability to make weak units charge you is so important for these lot. Then if you want you can add something like Allure of Slaanesh but it aint really needed.

Then your Khorne lads could really benefit from a Herald. Since you want a unit of 14 you could drop them down to 10 and add a Herald on Jugger. Give him Armour of Khorne and he has a 0+ save. Personally, I'd leave him in the unit of 14 so you can deploy them 6 x 3.

Then you could do with a BSB to protect those blocks. I'd suggest giving it to the Tzeentch Herald. The -2LD banner could be very nice and stop cause a fair few people to fail charges.

I am all about Heralds so my advice is biased. But this way, you will save a bucketload of points.

Those 3 Heralds add up to:

Khorne @ 190pts
Slaanesh @ 165pts
Tzeentch @ 140pts

That's only 495pts and your whole army will benefit. OFC you need to add another 240pts of Horrors.

Finally, since youre so Infantry-heavy I'd suggest some Flamers. They will destroy anyone who tries to marchblock your blocks. Bye bye great eagles!

Punk_in_Drublic
09-05-2008, 11:47
Interesting to read your takes on the daemon army. I too face the problem of trying to fit everything I want in. I find that my main problem is to include a greater deamon whilst ensuring the rest of the army packs a punch. This is especially true when it comes to the GUO (Not including epidemius in the army) as we can take one hell of a butt kicking but seriously lacks in the dishing out departement. I'd take a Bloodthirster, but nurgle magic is really fun.
So far I like the combo of a lvl 4 GOU and a Tzeench herald with MoS in a small 10 pink horror regiment , backed up by a nurgle herald BSB with the banner of great sundering (Leading 15-16 plague bearers with full command). I find that with taking a greater daemon and 2 heralds, getting a third core unit that can hold it's own proves a real challenge, whilst still finding points for diverters and hitters from the special and rare choices.

Looking at your unit set up, I'm wondering can you have multiples of the same daemonic icon in your army? I see you've used the siren icon twice.

LAters,

-Punk

Neknoh
09-05-2008, 12:13
I am very curious to that matter as well, they can either be seen as the normal Magic Banners of today, or as Unit Upgrades/Daemonic gifts which would allow them to be taken several times. With Nurgle, I've found that devicing a list for them with serious heavy hitting power isn't that big an issue, especially not when including a Great Unclean One. To me, Nurgle appears to be the strongest when you go for a GuO with Trappings and Nurgling Infestation whilst also going for a lvl 1 BsB of Nurgle with Trappings. You can then have two smaller blocks of speedbumpy Plaguebearers whilst retaining one major block of anvily goodness.
Now, it's in the Special and Rare sections that things gets interesting. By including two units of 4 Nurgling bases, you are spending 280 points for two scouting units that can be replenished without problem and that actualy dish out quite the ammount of hurt with their 12 strength 3 attacks. If we add in nurgle magic into the lot, we're either talking massive ammounts of Nurglings or very damaging effects from the Nurglings. The trick to Nurgle is properly supporting the combats, Nurglings and Nurgle Magic are what does this.
And there'd still be points left for a unit of 3 Beasts, they would serve as the main heavy hitters with an average of 4 attacks each and the possibillity of 7 attacks each. This would grant you quite the strong hitting unit as well. And your army consists of 6 units and a GuO, all of which can take quite the beating.

Now, for the list in itself, I do see your thoughts on the necessity of Heralds, however, I will probably really want a Greater Daemon as I'm currently converting a Winged Vampire and a Nightbringer, both will have the Winged Vampire bat-wing (getting one from a friend) upon which I'll do the most extensive freehand I've ever done, my vision is that of a painted window in a church, with the tapestry also extending onto their bare bodies (or half of them). The Nightbringer will also be painted with facial features on his chest as well, allowing him to act as either a Keeper, a Daemonprince or a LoC without the need for another model.
I also have the limited Archaon on Foot model, which I am going to repaint, he'll probably fit quite nicely as a makeshift Herald of Khorne should I want one on foot. So I've got two heralds and a GD/Daemonprince availeable.

To me, the use of the Siren Banner negates the need for an Always Strikes First herald in the Slaaneshi unit in that they can easely get the jump on enemy units, however, counterchargers or elves would proove a problem, I'll think it over. As for the size of my units, they are going to be fielded 7 wide, maximum frontage at minimum cost whilst still being allowed two casualties before loosing a rank on the third rather than on the second. Also, by having units of 14, I can, as said, place a Herald of Khorne on a jugger and place him in the unit of Bloodletters to take them up to 18 for being fielded 6 by 3. However, to me, a 0+ armoursave is by far overkill on a Herald of Khorne who gives the Bloodletters hatred, there shouldn't really be anything left in btb to hurt the Herald, especially not since not only him, but the Jugger and unit as well gets the Hatred.

Gaftra
09-05-2008, 14:06
some really good opinions and analysis here! ill throw in my own 2 cents here.

daemonettes imo are the weakest of the core units since st3 with armor piercing is ultimately a poor substitute for st4. the siren banner however is AMAZING and i will definitely be taking some seekers with it. the best way ive thought to use it is in a multiple charge situation where you bring a serious hammer unit like bloodcrushers into charge range, declare a 20 in charge with the seekers with siren banner so they have to stay put, and then smash the heck out of them. if youre worried about the ASF you could go the nurgle route and use the always strikes last ability. the other advantage of slaneesh is really stacking those ld penalty spells and abilities. the masque giving someone -d3 ld that cant be countered is ungodly good (zing!) also if youre doing tzeentch you can magically buff her up with bears anger or some other magic protection.

I'm still not sold on the gigantic block of horrors. i dont know what youre going to do with that unit besides have the caster hang out in it since you dont really want to put it into a position where youll be taking casualties. two medium size units for a level 2 or three caster seems like a better choice but i imagine it will take some play testing to work out.

Your Mum Rang
09-05-2008, 18:25
The beauty of Siren Song in a unit of Daemonettes is you place them right next (read: touching) a big block Bloodletters or, preferably, Plaguebearers so that an enemy charging will contact BOTH unit allowing you to stack a lot of CR and also kills.

Neknoh
09-05-2008, 21:58
To me, that isn't really a prefferable tactic, since that would only allow the enemy to crumble MORE daemons simply due to the fact that the Bloodletters wouldn't kill more than maybe, at most, a single model. By killing only one, we are then relying solely on the Daemonette abillity to kill R&F troops, which they do better when properly supported with a flank charge. Should an enemy have heavy armouring on his unit, he'll be glad to throw that unit at the daemonettes and contact the BL's, the BL's might do one casualty to a 1+ save group of Knights, but the 'Nettes won't really touch them. This leaves you wide open for the counterattack by the charging knights and horses, squashing a lot of Daemonettes and crumbling not only them, but a very large portion of the Bloodletters as well.

The idea I have for the Horror unit is to throw it straight at the larger R&F blocks of my enemy, in doing so, I'll be getting into range of Gift of Chaos AND also into range of the banner. The Horrors can still cast Gift once in close combat, and after unleashing Gift as well as other Slaaneshi and Tzeentchian magic, I can spring the Banner of Change. Appart from these nasty tricks, I can ALSO challenge big enemy brutes with the Changeling to both preserve the Horror unit and severly harm the brute, he's basically an Empire Wizard with the VHS. Furthermore, despite these potentially being viewed as "One trick ponies", they really aren't. The banner can easely draw at least one Dispell Dice, marching the Horror block straight at an enemy who knows what it is will force him into action AND he knows he cannot use something big and hitty to do the damaging on the unit.
I am not really looking for tactics with the general army with this thread, it'll quickly turn into a tactica Malleus, and we already have one of those. What I want are more suggestions and ideas on what to use for characters, character configurations that might suit the list, what might be changed in the list etc.

Punk_in_Drublic
10-05-2008, 01:05
Brotherman, I think that really boils it all down to the question - Do you want a super fast army that will ensure you have the initiative and can throw a lot of attacks your opponents way, or do you want the fun of spellcasting, though give your opponent the opportunity of fudging some of your gameplan with his (in that case) well placed dispel attempts and (in some cases) heavy magic defense?

I'm tempted to lean in the way of the Slaaneshi flavour, because it's quickly becoming the one configuration that a lot of people will view as the weaker option and I'm a 100% sure that you of all people will find a way to make it work. I'm a bit drunk at the moment, so I should get back to you with a better post later on.

btw, I really like your approach influenced by model and conversion choices more than pure sledgehammer tactics.

Laters,

-Punk

Your Mum Rang
10-05-2008, 13:16
As I said, Plaguebearers would be MUCH more preferantial for that tactic :D

Neknoh
10-05-2008, 16:17
Plaguebearers however, does not force your opponent to deal with them, they are not hitty enough to actually force any course of action other than a decently sized R&F unit, which a Horror unit would force. Furthermore, the Horror unit would either completely waste an enemy R&F unit or draw Dispell Dice from the enemy.
To me, Plaguebearers are really only worth it in the Nurgle-Khorne alliance where you're fielding a GuO, Skulltaker on a Chariot/Jugger and Epidemus. An army with these three heroes benefits much more from the use of Plaguebearers in that the Plaguebearers add to and are affected by Epidemus' Tally rule. They can also be boosted further by the magic of the GuO and when it comes to damage dealing, you will actually have very potential flankers. A block of Plaguebearers are used to keep the enemy in one place, by using the large block of Horrors (should I go all Tzeentch with a Herald, they will also have 4+ wardsaves), I force my opponent into reacting rather than using the block to react to him.

This force has the one purpose to control the battlefield movements of my opponent rather than to lock him down and hit him. Combined charges as well as use of sacrificing whatever unit is deemed useful as a sacrifice in the situation is what this list will hinge on

Your Mum Rang
10-05-2008, 16:24
Yeah, I was thinking more of my own army composition than yours.

I think the Keeper is slightly better than the LoC as you get more out of him (read: combat and enemy control).

As for Herald I've been supporting mine with Tzeentch Herald on Chariots... but you'll be wanting one in your Horrors. I still suggest bulking those Horrors to 36 or so.

RobG
11-05-2008, 01:55
20 Horrors are going to be hammered really quickly. You'll struggle to make it to the enemy line and still have the numbers to cast gift of chaos unless you're facing a non shooting list.

Dead Man Walking
11-05-2008, 04:57
I am of the mind that placing a tzentch herald on a flying chariot or disk is better than in a horror unit. Horror units smack of shoot me or combat me. The flying stuff will keep your mage out of harms way and tossing in a chariot only adds to the fun when you can go flying in for impact hits from behind with US 5!! Ouch!